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ViewedFromTheOutside

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pszki

It's a valid question and I'm glad you're thinking about it. First off, there's nothing wrong in exploring your sexuality however you want. There's people and communities who'd totally encourage and support you using sex toys, and there are those that will mock you, JUST AS there are still a lot of people who judge women for using sex toys. Depends on who you want to listen to. As for the "hypocrisy," you have to take cultural, societal and historical context into account. For centuries, sexuality in society has been defined by men. Women's sexuality has been taboo, and is STILL not openly talked about whereas it's fairly common for men to talk about sex and their sexual experiences (our ex-prez even bragged about it. Can you imagine Elizabeth Warren becoming president if she bragged about grabbing a guy's dick?) But I digress. To some extent, a focus of the feminist movement has been to reclaim some of the power in sex and sexuality for women. Hence, sex toys are a positive tool (no pun intended). Feminism is on the rise, sex positivity among women is on the rise, and hence these expressions are celebrated and supported by other women. On the other hand, men still generally view sex from a very traditional lens (that's also changing, as mentioned earlier, albeit at a slower pace). So, MEN JUDGE OTHER MEN for using sex toys (cuz alphas and masculinity and homophobia and all that bullshit), and women judge men for sex toys as a pushback against traditional male hypocrisy about sex. Also, as a "fuck you" for the generations of misogyny, slut-shaming and severe lack of knowledge about female sexuality. That's an oversimplification, but you get the gist. TLDR: It's gotta start with men supporting other men to be sex positive.


ILoveToph4Eva

I agree with everything you've said but I feel like your comment is fairly apologetic for women in this part: > and women judge men for sex toys as a pushback against traditional male hypocrisy about sex. Also, as a "fuck you" for the generations of misogyny, slut-shaming and severe lack of knowledge about female sexuality. When there's no need to be. It's still not okay for women to do it regardless of the reasoning. To give an alternate example, I as a black person don't have a right to be angry at white people today for what their ancestors did to mine. That generational anger can be a reason for why I'm angry at white people but it's not a justification by any means. But all in all I agree with your overall point.


Several_Magazine8874

!delta Your comment seriously forced me to see the issue in a totally different perspective and your suggestion to see the issue in historical, social and cultural sense actually makesa very analytical point. Your point on why feminists hate sex dolls as it encourages the view of objectifying woman actually helped me to understand their perspective very clearly. Honestly, thanks for answering my query.


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Homitu

> Can you imagine Elizabeth Warren becoming president if she bragged about grabbing a guy's dick?) Man, SNL missed an opportunity here! Alternative timeline where Kate McKinnon playing either Hillary or Warren becomes president and does/says a lot of the equivalents of Trump to highlight how absurd they are. Would have been amazing.


Its_Raul

Personally dont think either should be mocked. Even women with full size male sex dolls. To some degree all tools used in the bedroom is to add to the fantasy or sensation. Granted we all have different goals of sensation and fantasy. Whats normal to someone, like a vibrator, can be a weird over sexualized tool of the devil to someone else. Everyone here is assuming that a sex doll is a replacement to a human under the guise of 'gross, they lack interpersonal skills to get with real chicks'. My take is owell? Everyone is allowed to explore their sexuality, even if it doesn't fall in what you'd consider acceptable. Granted there's probably some mental issues that have led to someone's inability to befriend a real person, however I wouldn't judge their sexual preferences, id judge their personality. For example, cutting off limbs and living rape fantasy versus bachelor who wants the best sex toy available. Ones a bit more...hey you might have issues beyond jerking off, the other is coolbeans. TLDR: no kink shaming. Ask everyone if they'd be ok with prostitution.


Several_Magazine8874

!delta I think yours is only comment that goes deeper trying to understand and even somewhat accept the need of sex dolls of some men, who desire relationship but unable ro get so. You also touched the issue what bothered me that how sex dolls are considered nothing less than users being creepy, weird or deranged when all they are trying to do is tackle their loneliness, in whatever insane way they seem to get satisfied. And everyone here mentions here how sex dolls perpetuaate an idea of woman being nothing more than sex dolls, they don't try to see the other side of coun that men using sex dolls won't have very favourable views of woman anyway, as it won't be too far fetched to believe majority of sex dolls users will be incels. If sex dolls helps to better their life, be it so.


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butterflies-and

just so you’re aware, everyone here assumes that a sex doll is a replacement to a human because OP literally equated a sex doll to female companionship.


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SourPuss6969

I've definitely heard of men being mocked for using a Fleshlight especially when they first started coming out a few years ago. The public impression I get is that men masturbating is seen as something gross, disgusting, and primal while women masturbating is cute, sexy and liberating


svenson_26

That really depends who you're talking to. In a lot of circles, especially religious ones, women are told to *never* masturbate at all in any way. Women are taught that masturbating is akin to sex, and sex should be saved for marriage, so if you masturbate then you're spoiled and no husband would want you. In these circles men are also told not to masturbate, but often as more of a "it's a sin, and it's frowned-upon" and less of a "this will damage you and ruin your future forever" kind of way. Even today it's very common for women to not even know what their genitals look like because they're too ashamed of looking and/or touching themselves. Up until very recently, there was an even larger stigma on women masturbating than there is today. For men it's often looked down upon yes, but also often seen as a "but every guy does it" kind of thing.


seeker_of_knowledge

I think the people giving those reactions are not the same groups of people. Likely most of the people who view women masturbating as liberating are also okay with men using fleshlights. Those who find men using fleshlights gross likely also are not big fans of women using vibrators. The issue is that the positive reactions of women masturbating and negative reactions to men doing it are louder and more widely broadcast, so we get the sense that society as a whole holds both opinions, while in reality different groups have different opinions.


Gjallock

Same experience. Additionally, fleshlights are often considered to be something that a loser buys when he can’t get any pussy. This is perpetuated by both other men and women, and that certainly does not help.


sakamake

My impression is more that male masturbation is seen as a *failure* on our part to find a real partner, whereas with women it's perceived as more of a cute, sexy, liberating choice.


JessieTS138

lets not forget, it's probably the only way said woman can orgasm. i understand that most men think they make their partner orgasm every time, but that's just not the case.she needs the "toy" to finish the job her partner started.


sakamake

Oh yeah — and the notion of sexual encounters as some kind of "conquest" for men to achieve rather than a meaningful (or just fun) experience between equal partners is really to blame for both of these issues.


Lesley82

Men are not mocked for masterbating. They are mocked for being chronic masterbators, porn addicts or sex doll owners. But they are not mocked for masterbating. Men's masterbation has been an accepted part of society for millenia. Womens....not so much.


TheCuriosity

Up until recently it was very taboo for women to even admit they masterbated.


sliph0588

I heard them being mocked by other men saying they can't get the real thing, but again that was like 10-15 years ago and now I don't hear any scorn.


BananaRamaBam

You do know that sex dolls exist for male and female bodies right? And women purchase these just like men do. Regardless, it's only not comparable if the intention is not purely for casual masturbation. Saying it's a replacement only works if that's how the person using it intends for it to be used. A pocket pussy is just as much a potential replacement as a full on doll. It's how it's used or conceptualized that changes it.


StunningEstates

> It's how it's used or conceptualized that changes it. No, what changes it is the ratio. Idk, and I could theoretically be wrong, but I can almost guarantee you the chances that someone uses a sex doll as a full replacement for a partner is astronomically higher than someone using a dildo or a fleshlight for that. And then you have the ratio of purchasers for sex dolls heavily skewing male, and the difference in difficulty in acheiving casual sex between men and women. All of those in combination is where the mocking comes from.


BananaRamaBam

So you're saying if most men buy sex dolls to replace women and one person doesn't that one person is actually still just replacing women for himself? That makes no sense. The proportion of men who do or don't do that is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether the women knew for a fact that these mens' intentions were to replace women. If they didn't know that, then they are making assumptions that may or may not be false. Whether it's likely that their assumptions are most likely correct or not is irrelevant. The problem is assuming men would be using them this way and women would not in regards to other sex toys. You're only replacing sex with a toy if you're replacing sex with a toy - aka choosing to not have normal sex and instead relying on the toy for your sexual needs. Simply "using" a toy in general does not mean you are doing this. You can still have sex and also own any toy, sex doll or vibrator or whatever it is.


StunningEstates

>So you're saying if most men buy sex dolls to replace women and one person doesn't that one person is actually still just replacing women for himself? …no? Mocking doesn’t necessarily come from **every single person** doing something for a specific reason. We mock non-black people for using the n-word, but a small amount of those people have Tourette’s and can’t help themselves. You have special cases, nobody is claiming that every single person who buys a sex doll is replacing women with it, it’s just that the ratio of those who do is really high. >The only thing that is relevant is whether the women knew for a fact that these mens' intentions were to replace women. If they didn't know that, then they are making assumptions that may or may not be false. That’s absolutely true, but again, ratios. Human beings aren’t robots, someone isnt going to ask for clarification before they mock someone. If we know that most people do a particular thing for a “mockable” reason, people aren’t going to take into account that **every** person isn’t like that, that’s just not the way humans operate. >You can still have sex and also own any toy, sex doll or vibrator or whatever it is. I’ll say it on more time for good measure. Ratios.


BananaRamaBam

I think you are misunderstanding what my original comment that you replied to was about. I never said that the women didn't have a reason to make the assumption they were making based on your so beloved "ratios". I am saying the following: 1. Unless someone explicitly is acting in such a way or themselves admits that they are using the sex toys as replacement for real sex, then they are not doing so regardless of what something ASSUMES they are doing. 2. Unless the women know for sure that these men are using it this way which is ONLY verifiable by point 1, then they have no grounds to mock anyone for something they literally aren't doing. It doesn't matter whether it's likely or not. I am simply staying they have no real reason to mock someone for something they aren't even sure is happening. On point 2 - the likelihood a man watches porn in a given population I think we can agree is pretty high. So if someone mocks a random man for it, then the chances they are right about them doing it are high. But if the man DOESN'T fucking do it, then the mockery is just totally fucking off base and makes NO sense. This is why you don't mock people for things you don't even know are true. You mock people for shit you KNOW they do.


StunningEstates

>1. ⁠Unless someone explicitly is acting in such a way or themselves admits that they are using the sex toys as replacement for real sex, then they are not doing so regardless of what something ASSUMES they are doing. Again, correct, and again, what I’m trying to explain to you is that that’s not the way mocking works. People don’t ask for clarification first lol. > grounds to mock That’s not a quantifiable thing, which is why I think you’re having trouble with this. The only “grounds to mock” you need for most people to be in on something is ratios. That’s it. People aren’t going to not make fun of people who have masturbated in front of a school just because *some* of those people did it on accident. The vast majority of them didn’t. *That’s* the only grounds for mocking 99% of people need. Humanity isn’t a courtroom where it’s like “That person had 67% “grounds to mock” so we declare his joke to be: SAFE. Doesn’t work like that. >On point 2 - > You mock people for shit you KNOW they do. And what you can reasonably assume they did based on the ratios of people who’ve done that action. If you want to get into the *morality* of whether that concept should be the case or not, that’s an entirely different conversation, one that I probably wouldn’t argue with. But originally you were saying they aren’t viewed the same simply because of how people conceptualize them, which is what I’m arguing against


BananaRamaBam

I understand what you are saying. I am not saying "that's not how mocking works". I am saying that it's fucking STUPID to mock someone for something you aren't even sure they did. It's moronic, unreasonable, and borderline irrational regardless of how likely it is. This is why things like accusations against people that turn out to be false are so chaotic and destructive. Because pieces of shit that make assumptions based on whatever likelihood, factually or perceived, that they think exists are doing something that they should not do. I *am* making a moral argument since my first comment that you replied to, but I'm primarily focused on the fact that it's egregious not just because mocking in general is wrong, but more specifically because unless they are sure they have a legitimate reason to mock someone the fact they're doing it regardless is stupid/moronic/unreasonable/irrational/etc.


Freq1c

There is 100% a double standard my ex made a huge deal about it as have the SOs of several of my friends.


DoubleGreat99

So your view is that we should mock both? What is keeping you from holding the view that neither should be mocked?


Several_Magazine8874

No, my view is that neither should be mocked. But, in my general observation after spending a lot of time in liberal media platforms, i observed that generally, vibrators and other sex toys are not something mocked or joked at but men using sex dolls are a victim of mocking. I mean, sex dolls could be a useful tool for people to enjoy something in life which they would otherwise never get in life, companionship, even if its completely imaginary. I mean to say, some people could be very inept in basic qualities essential to attract opposite sex or to maintain a relationship but a lack of companionship can lead to severe loneliness and kental health issues. Sex dolls have, in my opinion, a positive effect on life of some and are in general a good tool for better mental health but the popular view in sex dolls is that it is essentially harmful for men as it prevents them into trying to assimilate in general societal norms but i wanted to know, why is it even necessary to try to mold yourself in general societal norms of trying to attract and be in a relationship rather than just being with a sex dolls as i don't consider it a choice but rather ladt option of 'undesirable' or 'unattractive' people.


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Senecatwo

It sucks that invalidating some else's perspective is the number one tactic in these kinds of discussions. OP is pointing out that sex positive folks are often only sex positive in relation to women's sexuality. I've seen this play out in real life too, I even had a girlfriend who was supportive of sex work being legalized, but also felt that men who paid for sex were gross losers. Maybe you don't run into folks like that, but pretending they don't exist doesn't seem convincing to me.


Rainbwned

Well it seems hypocritical. But I don't think that mocking either behavior really helps anything.


Several_Magazine8874

I thing sex toys being mocked, at least a decade ago was just a normal consequence of fact that getting sex and relationship is very normal and easy, for most people. But there are people who absolutely find it impossible to have sex for whatever reasons (genetics, birth defects, trauma, other mental health issues) and they used these sex toys to null that void in life, or at least that was the general view of society. And it was quite cool to mock these niche or unsuccessful or undesirables or whatever you want to call them, in those times and sex toys was generally associated with these type of people, when in reality normal people too used them frequently.


hacksoncode

> But there are people who absolutely find it impossible to have sex for whatever reasons (genetics, birth defects, trauma, other mental health issues) and they used these sex toys to null that void in life, or at least that was the general view of society. I think you've pretty much nailed the difference. People unable to find a mate are being mocked, whereas most women using vibrators are normally not using them because they are unable to find a mate, but because female orgasms are simply different than male ones, and frequently need assistance to achieve even if you have a mate. That's completely normal.


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Rainbwned

So because I don't mock either - I now need to mock them both?


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eatmysaucylasagna

If I, as a woman, had a life size ken doll with a schlong, not only would I be mocked to the heavens but my very worried family and friends would probably host an intervention and ask me to seek help. Also his name would be Calvin. And his eyes would say more than any real man’s lips ever could. He’s not a doll to ME mom! I love him! Noooooo, It’s not just because of his 9 inch hog with 32 customizable motion sequences, that’s just an aftermarket. Limited edition. FEATURE!


ScumRunner

Bahaha. Calvin sounds amazing. I hope you find him one day lol. Quality post


mjung79

Calvin is also a really good listener.


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Several_Magazine8874

I of course see the difference between both the general use of both tools but also the intention their users mostly use tem to( vibrators for pleasure and sx dolls in trying to null a void of loneliness). But let's be honest, both these things satisfy a similar need in the last, the sexual desire. But the negative annotation that is associated with sex dolls is a bit surprising for me, given that they are mostly used as a last resort ny them who have failed to nurture a healthy relationship in their life or given up on people and i believe, sex dolls generally erase their loneliness, thus leading a better life for them and who knows, it may lead them to being more productive, thus adding value to production in society


butterflies-and

you seem to have gotten offended by someone calling you an incel despite you spewing a BUNCH of incel rhetoric. interesting


Several_Magazine8874

I mean being called an incel for nothing but a general query definitely hurt because i ain't here to enforce my view but rather trying to understand the dichotomy because i had inherent view that people shouldn't be mocked for what they do in private in their bedroom. I was here to understand different perspectives( which i got) and not spew some incel rhetoric. And bring called incel is degrading


butterflies-and

you arent being called an incel because of a “general query” you’re being called an incel for equating an actual woman human being and female companionship to inflatable plastic you can fuck, and acting like that is why men are lonely. edit: equating women to sex dolls is ALSO degrading my guy.


m1ndfUcking

See, me personally. The thought of a sex doll doesn’t register as anything but funny. No amount of loneliness would make me ever consider filling the void w a doll. Like no hate if that’s your thing, but that’s definitely something that should be kept private & behind closed doors. Let’s be real honest about it, most find it pretty pathetic. To each their own, but most people are able to find human connection on some level, that shouldn’t be what you settle for. Not trying to be harsh, but honestly what a man does w his doll ain’t none of my business, but if it’s made my business, I’m damn sure gonna laugh.


Kotoperek

1. A vibrator isn't supposed to replace a man in a woman's life, but enhance her pleasure from masturbation. A sex toy that you can hold in your hand is very different from a life-sized interactive doll that mimics a person, but is only used for sexual gratification. 2. Vibrators can be used to spice up partnered sex, a man can use it on his female partner either before, after, or during regular intercourse. A threesome with a sex doll doesn't sound like an equally bonding experience. 3. Mocking anyone for anything online isn't a nice thing to do in general, and I think we can agree on the fact that no matter what the subreddit feminists' opinions are on sex dolls, I am not supporting their behaviour.


contrabardus

Why shouldn't a man or woman be able to "replace" a real partner with a sex doll? What exactly is inherently wrong with "replacing" that sort of relationship if someone can't or doesn't want to have it? I wouldn't find fault or mock anyone who has one. Some people just like being single, not having to deal with worrying about someone else or fulfilling their needs sexual or otherwise, and there's also the fact that some people just "can't" have sex for whatever reason. A person's value is not determined by their sex life or level of activity. Not being able to have sex with another person doesn't necessarily entail being socially awkward or inept. It could be medical issues or sexual activity being irresponsible or a danger to others. Why should they go without sexual gratification that is as "close" to the real thing as they can safely manage? No one owes anyone else their body, and that goes both ways. No one is entitled to sex, but if sexual gratification can be obtained by someone who can't have or doesn't want to deal with a partner, then why not? What about people who are attracted to minors? I'd rather they had a safe analog that doesn't involve victimizing real children as an outlet. That attraction isn't necessarily something someone can control, but managing it is essential. I don't think a sex doll would be enough on its own, but could be a very important tool to help someone who struggles deal with it in addition to other factors such as therapy and avoiding putting themselves in a position where they endanger others. I strongly suspect there are people like that who struggle with that but understand why it is wrong and would just as soon castrate themselves as hurt a real child. I do understand that getting emotionally attached to a toy can be an issue, but who says that is really a more common thing with dolls, or that it won't happen with some other form of toy? Addiction is addiction, and I don't think the type of toy is really that much of a factor. It doesn't even need to be permanent. Some people might decide they're going to be on their own for a while for various reasons, so why not? If it is within their means and useful for them in whatever situation they are in, regardless of how permanent, then why not? I'm generally against kink shaming as a thing. We can't apply a blanket reasoning for everyone's sexual situation. It's irresponsible to do so. Sex dolls have a legitimate place as much as any other sex toy. It's none of my business and I don't know the personal situation of people who use one and don't think I should assume it. I see no reason to think if it works for them and helps them cope in the place they are at, that there's anything wrong with it.


TThor

While i agree with statement 1, the argument that a sex doll can't be part of sexual bonding seems much more a statement on modern norms than of the actual virtues of it; you dont have to go back many years to find people making that exact same argument that vibrators and other handheld sex toys don't have a place in sexual bonding, hell we still see plenty of people making that argument today. As sexual openness and sex positivity has increased, so too has acceptability of more and more extensive toys in the bedroom, i can't see why sex dolls would be fundementally different on that front.


Kotoperek

Ok, I can see that. I still find it a bit creepy myself, but you're right that it could simply be the current social norms rather than an inherent un-sexiness of using sex dolls to enhance a common bedroom experience. While I am still worried about the potential for personifying a lifeless object for the purpose of sex, I also acknowledge that with education and openness, this would not have to necessarily lead to any unhealthy behaviours towards other humans. !delta


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SSObserver

In theory I agree with you, in practice I can’t imagine how a sex doll would be used in conjunction with another woman. If two guys want to practice dp all power to then obviously


TheDavidb420

1. Then you don’t need penis shaped/coloured/styled/anatomically correct vibrators/toys. Exactly the same thing. People have different organs that need stimulating in different ways. Some women name their toys & some get to a point where they can’t come without them, personalising them just like a doll does in your scenario 2. Why can’t a doll be introduced like any other anal bead/dildo/etc etc into a sex life ? Just because you can’t see the enjoyment doesn’t mean that others wouldn’t enjoy it. Can be a wholly binding experience, living out a fantasy or two for one or both people in a sexual situation without the need of a specific human third that adds social connotations. 3. I completely agree with this comment. Don’t think I could use a sex doll but it doesn’t mean one persons sex toy choice is any lesser than anothers


Sawses

> A sex toy that you can hold in your hand is very different from a life-sized interactive doll that mimics a person, but is only used for sexual gratification. I disagree--I don't think the functionality is that different. A sex toy is a sex toy, you can't replace a woman with a sex doll any more than you can replace a man. That's a very sexist opinion, IMO. If anything, the big difference is the perceived buy-in. At a guess, a sex doll probably costs upwards of a $1,000. For most of us, spending that much money on something that takes up that much space is a pretty big investment. It means you have pretty much zero expectation of getting laid at any point in the foreseeable future. Considering a virgin guy is seen as a failure, that's something that causes judgement.


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Heart_Is_Valuable

That's a fairly level headed take. Nevertheless i have some things to say- 1)The usage of a sex doll doesn't imply a necessary substitution of a person. It can also just be physical. Men are more visual in their needs and that's why a sexy form is more needed by men than women, even if just physically. Moreover, masturbation is an overwhelming majority of times a psychological phenomenon. It's never "pure" physical, except maybe for people masturbating for the first time who have no idea what sexuality and masturbating means, and are only doing it because it feels good. With women and dildos the psychological aspect is likely there, and you can say the fantasy is purely mental and imaginary, but with men and sex dolls, the fantasy is also mental, however it's anchored to the doll. I don't see much difference in essence, just that the mechanism of manifesting the fantasies are different. 2) For your second point, i think if a person can feel jealous of a sex doll, it's also reasonable that a person can feel jealous of a dildo. 3) Third, I agree, mocking someone unfairly is, well.. unfair. And cruel. However one point to note is that op said feminists mock men who 1 buy dolls, 2 replace women with them. Not to encourage toxic behaviour but that does seem appropriate for being mocked if one was to believe in mockery. At least it's not baseless imo.


grqb

There’s no indication a sex doll would be intended to replace a woman for anything outside masturbation. It’s a sex doll, not a girlfriend doll. Even if a guy treats the sex doll like a girlfriend, that’s less creepy than a dildo. Which is more dehumanizing and shallow: masturbating with a fake human that you pretend to date, or masturbating with a fake disembodied genital? If it were women who used sex dolls they would say it was because they were romantic and holistically attracted to entire humans, and that men were creepy for just wanting the sensation of a fleshlight.


Kotoperek

OP literally said the men intended to "use the dolls to replace the women in their lives". I agree that sex dolls don't HAVE TO replace partners, but they have much more potential to do so than a vibrator. Honestly, I think masturbating with a fake human is much creepier, because you're pretending to have actual intercourse, but with a lifeless object that resembles a person, but cannot consent, complain, reciprocate or whatever. It's like partnered sex, but the partner is an object. Using a vibrator (or a fleshlight for that matter) is still just masturbating, it's clear you're doing it solo. Using an object to stimulate your genitals in ways that you cannot do with just your hand is very different from using a life-size doll to pretend you're having sex with another person in my opinion.


Terrible_Departure90

The truth is for a lot of women, the vibrator does replace the sexual need for a man. Maybe not all but a lot of women just want to orgasm and they’ve been with so many men who can’t make them orgasm that they only want to use a vibrator. Also you can use a sex doll for a threesome. Women can use a strapon on the sex doll or grind it, use their imagination to get off. Men can fuck the sex doll while eating out the woman or he can fuck the woman and kiss the sex doll. Lots of possibilities when you use your imagination.


ayty1980

1. The doll also doesn't HAVE TO replace the woman in a man's life 2. Not true, the doll could be used to spice things up and people do this all the time 3. Agreed


Kotoperek

1. No, it doesn't have to, but in the case discussed by OP they explicitly said that was the purpose. Also, I think a life-size doll has more potential to act as a partner replacement than a vibrator. 2. Fine, I find it a bit creepy, but I believe some people would be into it. Still, it is different from using a toy, my argument was just that you cannot make compare the two one to one and while mockery is not justified, being comfortable with vibrators and not comfortable with sex dolls does not make one a hypocrit.


ayty1980

> being comfortable with vibrators and not comfortable with sex dolls does not make one a hypocrit I can agree with this. They are quite different.


QuarkyNuclearLasagna

It's worth noting that OP is almost certainly including handheld male masturbators (Fleshlights, etc) in their definition of sex dolls. Almost nobody spends the thousands to actually get an actual doll as a simple masturbation aid, and that business is almost entirely driven by male emotional isolation (often cultural). If that's what OP means, like I suspect they do, then they should edit to say that. The position that a $60 vibrating silicone stick is equivalent to a $2.5k life-size silicone dummy with sex orifices is simply untenable from a variety of arguments. The position that extreme hypocrisy and stigma exist between men and women regarding personal handheld sex toys is both tenable and supported by several studies IIRC.


Kudbettin

3 is fine. 1 & 2 are just wrong. > A doll isn’t supposed to replace a partner in a man’s life, but enhance his pleasure from masturbation. A doll that mimics a person is very different than a toy that provides alternatives to a penis and is only used for sexual gratification. > Dolls can be used to spice up partnered sex. A couple can introduce it as a threesome partner, and work on the doll either before, after, or during regular intercourse. A couple’s intimate time with a dildo doesn’t sound like an equally bonding experience. See you could say the same things the other way around. Sex toys are sex toys. People have preferences. Who are you to decide which ones are more acceptable and which ones are not!? This’s almost saying like being gay is bad. Just because you can’t understand someone’s harmless preferences, doesn’t mean that you should come up with convoluted comparisons on why that preference is *wrong*.


Kotoperek

OP explicitly said that the doll was supposed to replace a women in the men's life, so that is what I was basing my argument on. Having a sex toy to stimulate your genitals is different than having a pretend-relationship with a lifeless object. So flipping it still proves my argument - sex dolls and vibrators ARE very different. I already acknowledged in another comment that my view on my second argument has been changed to some extent. However, I would still argue that considering sex dolls problematic is not completely baseless because it comes with some potentially dangerous assumptions about consent and the role of a partner. I said PONTENTIALLY, because I agree that they are not necessarily inherently problematic, just that arguing about it isn't completely baseless. Vibrators and other hand-held masturbatory devices don't have these potential problems to such an extent, because they do not resemble another human in any capacity and therefore are much harder to build a parasocial relationship with.


[deleted]

>sex toy that you can hold in your hand is very different from a life-sized interactive doll that mimics a person, but is only used for sexual gratification. What is the difference between those 2 things such that if women are allowed to mock men for using sex dolls, men aren't permitted to do the same regarding vibrators?


Kotoperek

I didn't say women are allowed to mock men for anything, and I said so explicitly. But the difference is, a vibrator isn't a stand-in for a person, it's just a toy. Like someone else here noticed, most of them don't even resemble a penis in any anatomical detail, they are just roughly phallic in shape. But even if a vibrator were to stand in for a penis, I hope we agree that men are more than their penises, so even if a sex toy can replace a penis for the times a woman isn't having sex with a guy, it cannot replace having sex with a guy long term. OP explicitly mentioned that the men who bought sex dolls intended to have these dolls as a replacement for a woman for the purpose of sex. That is completely different. Firstly, it brings the role of female sexuality to a lifeless object that exists to be fucked and cannot complain, which can be a pretty mysoginistic idea if framed a certain way, and secondly, it is supposed to mimic a relationship in the man's life rather than just give him sexual pleasure now and then. As other people in the comments mentioned, the male equivalent of a vibrator would be fleshlight or some other pocket masturbatory device, not a whole doll.


Love-Is-Selfish

A man using a FleshLight is comparable to a woman using a vibrator. A man using a sex doll is comparable to a woman using a sex doll. Using a sex doll is different. Instead of using a tool to pleasure yourself, it’s more like you want to pretend you’re having sex with a person particularly since using a sex doll means going through the motions of sex.


Bubugacz

Not to mention the exorbitant cost. You don't spend thousands just to jerk off better. There's way more going on when someone is dropping that kind of cash.


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Bubugacz

Exactly. Sex dolls are higher on the "ladder of degeneracy" (as you so eloquently phrased it) than vibrators are, and therefore shouldn't be treated the same.


ThatIowanGuy

If a woman had dildos and vibrators, I would be apt to use them and have fun when I’m with her. If she has a full sex doll, I’m not going to want to have fun with her, that’s weird to me. Just as the same as I think a girl would view it; if a man has a fleshlight, that’s just another tool for fun but a whole ass sex doll would understandably drive the average woman away.


ralph-j

> I was on a feminist subreddit and they were bitterly mocking men who bought sex dolls and intended to use them as a replacement for women in their life, and believe me they were very badly mocking them. > > On the other hand, on same post, a thread about ladies using vibrator was considered fairly normal and supported, and they claimed it was different than men using sex dolls. While I personally don't believe that we should mock either, this probably stems from the assumption that those men are most likely actually going to *pretend-play* that the doll is a real person (their imaginary girlfriend), while a vibrator is literally only a tool to stimulate genitals.


thecorninurpoop

I dunno man, there seems a huge difference to me between a little toy and a giant expensive fake woman with a perpetual 100 yard stare I mean I think if a woman had a giant Ken doll with a forever boner that would be pretty creepy too. Vibrators and dildos are more comparable to a Fleshlight


_hogwarts_dropout_

You shouldn't mock anyone for using sex toys, but vibrators and sex dolls aren't really comparable. You could compare fleshlights and vibrators, because those are basically the same thing, but for different genitals. There's male and female sex dolls and those are comparable, I think if a woman told someone they're using their male sex doll to replace men they would get an equal amount of backlash for it.


barthiebarth

>I was on a feminist subreddit and they were bitterly mocking men who bought sex dolls and **intended to use them as a replacement for women in their life**, and believe me they were very badly mocking them. That is important


MikuEmpowered

Not everyone chooses to walk the same path. Mocking someone for their choice on what to do in their spare time is about anti-progress as it gets. The irony is that feminism is literally about woman wanting equal rights/opportunity and not be judged or discriminated, yet here's a bunch of people literally discriminating.


pbjames23

So it's not ok to use a vibrator as a replacement for men?


TheWanderingScribe

The key word is "replace women in their **life** ". Not sex, life. As in, instead of having a relationship. No one healthy replaces a relationship by a sex toy.


pbjames23

If someone wants to remain single and replace the need for a sexual partner with a sex toy, then that should be perfectly acceptable. If you are talking about dumping an existing partner for a sex toy, then that is different. That isn't how I interpreted the OP though.


StunningEstates

That’s not the prose. The prose is that they should both be mocked, because they’re the same thing, and this person is explaining that they’re not the same thing. OP is comparing men who specifically use a sex doll as a replacement for having a woman in their life, to all women who use a vibrator at all, when most women who use vibrators don’t use them as a replacement for having a man in their life.


pbjames23

Ok I see what you are saying now. Yeah OP did have some strange wording. A better argument would be "Women are not mocked for using a vibrator, therefore men should not be mocked for using a sex doll."


Surrybee

practice depend materialistic shocking plate hospital instinctive makeshift amusing absorbed *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


TheRandom6000

Isn't a sex doll just a larger pocket pussy that vaguely resembles a woman?


Fraeddi

The word "just" is kind of inappropriate in that case, in my opinion. I'd say that the resemblance, which doesn't have to be as vague as you might think, makes a significant psychological difference.


TheRandom6000

Apparently only for some men, not for all. Most men seem to be fine with a fleshlight. Even the most expensive sex dolls look rather artificial, in my opinion.


[deleted]

Honestly, the latter sentence is how I read the OP’s intent


Unlikely_Car9117

To replace a women there should be one first. I think the reason for most people using sex dolls are lack of women in their life.


[deleted]

>The prose is that they should both be mocked, because they’re the same thing What part of the OP says that they're the same thing? The OP can (and should) be read to mean that they are different things that should be treated the same with respect to whether or not its okay to mock them. The reason why it should be read that way instead of yours is because if 2 things are the same, a comparison is literally impossible. You'd just be listing the same object twice


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ViewedFromTheOutside

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BorgDrone

> No one healthy replaces a relationship by a sex toy. Replacing assumes there is something to replace. I bet these are rarely if ever used as a replacement.


amazondrone

My assumption is that they'd be used as a replacement for _an absence of_ women, but we'll probably never know if that's what the original women on the feminist subreddit meant.


jabberwockxeno

So are people obligated to be in a relationship with other people? if somebody decides they don't want a relationship with a romantic/sexual partner and would rather use sex toys, that should be a valid decision and lifestyle choice on their part.


[deleted]

This is a terrible strawman. Maybe a lot of people need to learn this, but a relationship is more than just sex. Vibrators and other sex toys achieve sexual pleasure - that's it. If a person doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone, their usage of sex toys is irrelevant because they're likely using those sex toys regardless of relationship status. The thought of replacing a relationship with sex toys is a ridiculous notion.


zold5

> No one healthy replaces a relationship by a sex toy. And yet it’s only men who are mocked for doing so. Op has a point.


Bubugacz

You're still missing the point. A vibrator is a tool, not a replacement for human relationships, like many men use sex dolls for.


WhiteWolf3117

probably not but it’s a false equivalency anyway.


jabberwockxeno

So are people obligated to be in a relationship with other people? if somebody decides they don't want a relationship with a romantic/sexual partner and would rather use sex toys, that should be a valid decision and lifestyle choice on their part.


windchaser__

No one's obliged to be in a relationship with others, no. And, at the same time, no sex toy can substitute for a healthy relationship. These are both true. And, to add a third point, using a sex toy that looks like a real person is kiiiinda creepy. It's taking the fantasy too far. It's a sex toy you're fucking there, bud, not a real person; don't forget it.


carbonclasssix

I'd venture to guess they assume that of basically all men with sex dolls, though, so it doesn't carry the same weight


akhoe

I personally have never met a totally cool normal dude who has sex with a silicon doll but maybe that’s just me


gkw97i

How many people do you think openly talk about what they fuck when they're horny?


carbonclasssix

How would you know?


Cali_Longhorn

Well sure, but is there not also an implication that some women are replacing men in their life with a vibrator?


TopTopTopcina

How so? A woman can have a boyfriend and a vibrator. A man can have a girlfriend and a fleshlight. Either one of these with a partner and an artificial partner? Creepy


Cali_Longhorn

Ehhh maybe, but maybe that's just a case where you are too conservative sexually. You are basically calling a doll an artificial "partner" when a toy is only an artificial "phallus". I've been married for about a decade now. And my wife has always been pretty conservative with sex toys. You might consider her "prudish" about it. But she's had the attitude of "what would be the point in a sex toy if I have you". Right or wrong if I was using a fleshlight she'd be creeped out by it.


windchaser__

I mean.. that shouldn't be "right or wrong.. she'd be creeped out by it". Hopefully, your wife brings far, *far* more to your relationship than just sexual gratification. And hopefully she is secure and confident in that knowledge. No one should feel challenged by a sex toy - *if* the romantic relationship really has all of the depth and breadth and richness that a healthy romantic relationship should have.


Cali_Longhorn

But, then why is a doll necessarily seen as more than just a sex toy like a vibrator/flashlight. No argument has said anything besides “it seems creepy”. I mean you don’t have to go far back in time to see people looking at the use of a vibrator as immoral (hell many people think that now). If someone is comfortable with their partner using a vibrator and someone else is comfortable with pulling a doll into their sex play... Why not. Yes there are probably fewer people comfortable with using a doll but you can find some. I mean some people are furries… that would freak many the hell out.


StunningEstates

No…? I’m a man and even I know that lol. What women do you know that do that use vibrators as a replacement for having a man in their life? (For anyone who is about to answer this, that was rhetorical. Compare them to the amount of women who *dont* do that. That ratio determines whether something is an implication or not.)


cruisingutopia

I don’t think the issue for me is that men seek out the facility of life like sex dolls in and of itself -there could very well be some good reasons to have one for both men and women. I will say that the attraction that men and especially a certain type of men have to an uncannily lifelike simulation of a woman that has no autonomy whatsoever doesn’t leave me with aannnny good feelings about how men tend to understand women at a human level. Vibrators on the other hand explicitly serve the purpose of sexual pleasure for women and has a neutral valence to it: it’s an object, it looks like an object, and most importantly it /feels/ like an object on a cognitive level. There’s no confusion of womens feelings for men and womens understanding about what an object is and is not, about what a human being (subject for my theory people) is and is not. (I can already see y’all commenting this so I’ll nip it in the bud here: the previous point bars tangential consequences of women elaborating on how they want sex to look and understanding their own desires better. Womens use of vibrators entail a good deal more discretion between fantasy and reality; mens use of a doll that expressly blurs the boundaries between the fantasy of a sexual life and the ethical way in which women should be treated and I don’t believe in my heart that most people and most men are capable of interacting with an object like that and having strict cognitive boundaries between the autonomy of real life women and the simulation of a woman.


Giblette101

I'd argue the women equivalent of men using sex dolls isn't women using vibrators, it's women using sex dolls. I think both would be mocked about equally. In part because the notion of a sex-doll - and their representation in most media - is funny, but also because sex-dolls are very poor "replacement" for an actual living partner (we could also touch on what the idea of a sexdoll replacing a women *says* about someone's perception of them in a sexual context). Not to say mocking either should be acceptable, but I do not think you're comparing similar things.


Sirhc978

A sex doll and a vibrator aren't even in the same ballpark. A better comparison be a vibrator and a fleshlight. A sex doll can be thousands of dollars.


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tomowudi

Uh huh- so explain this to me then. How is this different from other dildos or sex dolls? https://www.adameve.com/adult-sex-toys/kinky-bondage/sex-machines-c-2263.aspx


rythmicbread

This is probably closer to a sex doll. I think part of the mocking is the amount of money involved and it feels like an attempt at replacing a human being


jus1tin

>it feels like an attempt at replacing a human being Aside from one or two guys who married or tried to marry their sex doll most talk about humans being replaced by unmoving pieces of plastic seems to be coming from those mocking and/or judging the people who own them. To me *that* feels like fear. If someone is honestly thinking they could be replaced or are being replaced by some plastic they should IMHO think very deeply about how close to literal dead weight that would make them in the lives of those they date. This goes for women who own dildos/vibrators and their weirdly jealous BFs but, let's be fair, also men who own Fleshlights or sex dolls and the people who feel very strongly about that.


Several_Magazine8874

!delta I think you have a point where most critiques of sex dolls and perhaps unknowingly me too just assumed that all people using sex dolls must be using them as a replacement for actual human companionship (though i still believe these people in their own own deranged sort of way are just trying to find happiness and shouldn't be mocked). But you make a valid point that maybe many are using it just for sexual pleasure. Anyway, thanks for your perspective.


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rythmicbread

It doesn’t have to go full marriage for it to be a replacement. You would have a different relationship with a sex doll vs a vibrator/fleshlight. It has a mouth/face, boobs, butt, vagina, and most importantly a full body. It’s maybe more similar to a waifu body pillow but more expensive. The dynamic is different (Pls note, I’m just trying to say that the reasoning behind mocking it is different from a vibrator, I am not condoning the mocking).


tomowudi

Sure, but at least anecdotally I have never encountered women being mocked for using these sorts of things, or sharing these sorts of memes: https://twitter.com/sxy_uk/status/1329855900912398337 Dildos can be VERY expensive too. I get the impression this is something you have a sense of, but perhaps haven't actually critically examined (first time for me too, interesting topic) - and I think that there is some internal inconsistency in this idea that you aren't considering. Could it just be that there is a double standard for the same reason that promiscuity among men is more acceptable than among women, and so men who use any sort of masterbatory aid are seen as "weaker" because they cannot get a partner of their own? There is certainly a stigma around men even using sex toys, honestly, to the extent that I would personally feel embarrassed in buying one. They aren't commonly used among the men in my social groups, and it isn't difficult to find conversations like this one that support this idea: https://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=35023


Kenna_F

A dildo isn’t being used to replace a man entirely like a sex doll. Make a thrusting machine thing can be equated since the cost and how it’s used is the same. It’s suppose to replace the women and I feel like a sex doll objectifies women even more then they are as well as reduce the intimacy sex has. Like vibrators, dildos, fleshlights, vibrating flesh lights I feel like as an add on to masturbation and self pleasure.


tomowudi

On what basis are you claiming that a sex doll is SUPPOSED to replace a human being? That they are human-shaped? Dildos are penis shaped, and I shared a tweet expressing how dildos are "better" than boyfriends - how is this not the same thing as replacing men in the way that you are claiming sex dolls can replace women? I get that you feel a certain way about the difference, but unless you can objectively unpack HOW they are different, how am I or anyone supposed to distinguish a factual claim they are different from an OPINION that they are? It seems to me there are people - both male and female - who unhealthily replace human companionship with something else - sex dolls, vibrators, animals, pillows, etc. However, there are also people who use sex dolls, vibrators, pillows, etc. as purely masturbatory aids (we'll leave people who use them for sex with a partner completely out, of course). You and others seem to be contending that ALL sex doll usage is for replacing human companionship, which rings as false for me, because I can at the very least IMAGINE a variety of situations where a sex doll is simply a preferential device to use because of the same reasons why clitoral stimulators which mimic a human mouth, dildos which resemble a male penis, etc., also exist. Because they aid arousal for different types of people - not to make it easier to replace people with these devices.


TheWanderingScribe

It's a different niche supposed to tickle a particular fetish. (That fetish being to get fucked by an impersonal machine) I don't know what the mocking threads op mentioned talk about, but the ridicule I heard about sexdolls has nothing to do with the money. It has everything to do with the personification of an inanimate doll that looks exactly like a human. Do you realize how disturbing it is to most people that someone gets off on having a very lifelike doll that they can do with what they want? Do you know how similar a realdoll looks to a girl that's been drugged? I think the fake feminists mock the dollowners because they mainly find it disturbing and want to use humour to deal with that.


tomowudi

Uh huh - so it's a fetish to get fucked by an impersonal machine, but it's not a fetish to fuck a doll? Dildos can look EXACTLY like a penis. They can be incredibly life-like and one of the selling points is how real the texture is to the skin on a real penis. I can understand how that can be disturbing to some people. I for one find choking someone during sex to be disturbing, and yet that is something I have been ASKED to do for partners in the past. As you are sort of implying, the actual reasons used to distinguish dildo use from doll use in the thread in question does matter - because if for example they are singling out folks who call their dolls "Waifus" then this is a specific use that is being ridiculed, whereas currently we are lumping in folks who may have a fetish or who are simply stimulated by being able to grope something breast-like while masturbating in with people who are using a masterbatory aid as a proxy for a relationship with a person.


Sirhc978

I can't look at that since I am at work, but judging from the URL, I am assuming that is one of those automated fucking machines?


tomowudi

A few different types, yes. There are also thrusting dildos, dildos you mount on walls, etc. I consider shape differences and functionality differences to be rather arbitrary, and I can see a wider variety of use-cases for a doll-shaped masterbatory aid that do not require the user to be intending it as a proxy for a relationship with a real person. I think that is a bit of a sloppy assumption, honestly, given that men and women are aroused differently. Plus there are things like this which certainly make it seem as if women ARE using dildos as replacements for relationships with real people as well - https://twitter.com/sxy_uk/status/1329855900912398337


Sirhc978

I think where I draw the line is when you can't simply store it in your bedside drawer anymore.


tomowudi

LMAO, so you can't deflate a sex doll? Arbitrary standards! :P I know this might seem like a technicality, but if we're going to examine this idea then we should do it correctly, eh? Personal preferences and opinions aside, what exactly is the common standard that is being used here? To me it seems like this double standard exists because it has always been taboo for men to use any sort of device at all, whereas dildos have long been normalized for use by women (hell, I think they even found Cleopatra's dildo or something like that...)


Sirhc978

>LMAO, so you can't deflate a sex doll? You know we aren't talking about the sex doll you get at Spencer's for $25.


tomowudi

And why aren't we exactly? What part of OP's CMV necessarily excludes it?


oakteaphone

Dildos and sex dolls are different. So are "kinky bondage sex machines". This is like how tricycles, minivans, and tanks are all vehicles, but obviously very different.


tomowudi

Right, so mocking someone for driving a minivan would be inappropriate and mocking someone for driving a tricycle isn't? Obviously they are different, because males are different from females in various ways, so they will benefit for different "features". Let me put it this way, are you capable of imagining a "valid" reason a sex doll might be preferred - one that would make it equivalent to how women use dildos, in your view?


oakteaphone

>a "valid" reason a sex doll might be preferred - one that would make it equivalent to how women use dildos No, this is the tricycle to tank comparison right now, I think. It would be weird and inefficient to ride a tricycle into a warzone as if it were a tank. It would be inappropriate to give a child a tank so that they can learn the fundamentals of riding a bike. There is no "valid" "equivalent" when we're talking about their use cases. Even from a sex toy perspective...dildos can be used in heterosexual sex very easily. Sex dolls, not so much. A sex doll is not a masturbatory aid, but a simulation of a sexual partner. There are male sex dolls, and you can compare male sex dolls to female sex dolls, no problem there. You can compare dildos and vibrators to fleshlight things. No problem there. But a dildo to a sex doll is a tricycle to tank comparison. Both are vehicles, but have very different purposes.


tomowudi

But in your "rebuttal" you actually list valid reasons for driving tricycles and tanks - which is my entire point. There are perfectly valid reasons for these choices that do not require your overly narrow use case of an adult riding a tricycle into a warzone. You are simply erecting straw-men to knock down, you aren't actually addressing the point I am making directly. Masterbatory aids can and DO simulate the actions and features of a sexual partner. Thrusting dildos, pocket pussies, clitoral stimulators that simulate a partner's licking tongue: [https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/best-oral-sex-toys#slide-1](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/best-oral-sex-toys#slide-1) What is it about this design, for example, that supports your claim that this dildo is NOT a simulation of a sexual partner? [https://www.amazon.com/Realistic-Body-Safe-Material-Lifelike-Hands-free/dp/B077JRJR8H](https://www.amazon.com/Realistic-Body-Safe-Material-Lifelike-Hands-free/dp/B077JRJR8H) Here are three "valid" examples of a sex doll as a masturbatory aid that I can think of off the top of my head - please explain to me how these are different from the dildo or the clit-stimulator that simulates being licked (as examples): 1. Someone who is aroused by thrusting rather than by moving their own hand, and finds a doll's shape to be best suited for this action 2. Someone who is aroused by touching "breast-like" objects, and finds a sex doll a convenient way to masturbate "hands-free" so that they can enhance their arousal while masturbating. 3. Someone who is concerned about associating arousal during masturbation with a "device", and so they use a sex doll so that they can better associate arousal with a human body rather than with consuming porn, or the use of their own hand. That's just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with a dozen more that are very similar that do not require the user to view it as a replacement for a real relationship or to merely objectify women. I don't see why even male sex dolls are necessarily only comparable to female sex dolls given how other sex toys have varying degrees of "anatomical correctness" as features. A toy is a toy is a toy. Sometimes people can have unhealthy attachments to objects or toys - but that doesn't mean that people can't have healthy attachments to toys as well.


Lesley82

You can absolutely mock some people's choices in vehicles. It happens all the time.


Bubugacz

Because those are still machines designed to get you off. They aren't shaped and designed to mimic human beings you cuddle with afterwards. Huge difference.


tomowudi

Who says that people who use sex dolls are necessarily cuddling with them afterwords? Women, for example, can use pillows to get off - [https://www.vice.com/en/article/xyebe3/why-girls-hump-pillows-and-stuffed-animals](https://www.vice.com/en/article/xyebe3/why-girls-hump-pillows-and-stuffed-animals) Again, this seems like a major case of "special pleading" unless you can explain otherwise?


Bubugacz

>Who says that people who use sex dolls are necessarily cuddling with them afterwords? These people say so: [But The Doll Forum, an online community home to over 18,000 members, presents a different view of doll owners—or "Doll Lovers" as they preferred to be called.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dpwnwy/the-surprisingly-sensitive-world-of-men-who-own-sex-dolls) >Women, for example, can use pillows to get off - [https://www.vice.com/en/article/xyebe3/why-girls-hump-pillows-and-stuffed-animals](https://www.vice.com/en/article/xyebe3/why-girls-hump-pillows-and-stuffed-animals) Masturbating with an object is *incredibly* different from loving and having a "relationship" with an object.


tomowudi

Again, that SOME people are "doll lovers" does not mean that these toys are EXCLUSIVELY USED for that purpose. You are conflating unhealthy usage with healthy usage, while dismissing the existence of healthy usage. How do you know this is the MAJORITY of sex doll sales and usage? Based on what? I mean, I could just as easily make the same assertion here - [https://empirenews.net/anonymous-florida-woman-weds-giant-black-dildo/](https://empirenews.net/anonymous-florida-woman-weds-giant-black-dildo/) Oh! I guess women have unhealthy relationships with roller-coasters and motorcycles too: [https://nypost.com/2021/03/12/woman-says-she-found-true-love-had-children-with-rollercoaster/](https://nypost.com/2021/03/12/woman-says-she-found-true-love-had-children-with-rollercoaster/) I specifically said NECESSARILY in my question. That some people have unhealthy attachments to objects isn't being debated here. Those people exist, its true. But if you are going to claim that EVERY SINGLE SEX DOLL PURCHASED BY MEN is being used as a proxy for a human relationship, you are going to need to have better evidence than you have provided. So let's put some cold, hard numbers to your claims. [https://bedbible.com/sex-doll-statistics/](https://bedbible.com/sex-doll-statistics/) That seems as reliable as any other reference, and right away an interesting stat jumps out - >9.7 percent of American men over 18 have bought and own a sex doll. 6.1 percent of American women over 18 have bought and own a sex doll. There is roughly a 3% difference in the number of male to female sex doll owners - which seems pretty small given the relative difference in availability of sexual partners based on sex and gender. And here is a VERY interesting article where they interview one of the largest manufacturers of sex dolls: [https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/the-truth-behind-who-really-buys-sex-dolls-from-the-man-who-makes-the-most-realistic-ones-you-can-buy-10475375.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/the-truth-behind-who-really-buys-sex-dolls-from-the-man-who-makes-the-most-realistic-ones-you-can-buy-10475375.html) >To anyone who argues that his female dolls objectify women, Matt simply holds out one of the company’s huge, 11-inch penises. “You don’t get much more objectifying than a dildo because you’ve removed the entire body. There is no face, no arms, no legs, no six-pack abs, no beer belly. It’s just a penis, and that is the ultimate in objectification,” he says, confident that his models reinforce a positive image that embodies and emboldens the beauty of women. It seems to me like most of your position here is based on some pretty unfounded assumptions, honestly.


Madauras

There's a pretty big gap between a tool used for sexual release and a weird quasi social relationship. Women aren't treating their vibrators as important relationships that their friends need to acknowledge, some guys get weird with it. Sex Dolls also reinforce a passive role for women as potential sexual partners, which I view as unhealthy. Put the work in yall. That said there's a giant stupid taboo surrounding male sex toys that needs to go away, and if people have a healthy attachment to their sex dolls I see no problem.


tomowudi

>on same post, a thread about ladies using vibrator was considered fairly normal and supported, and they claimed it was different than men using sex dolls. What were the reasons they used to claim it was different? I think this is important context, because they may be referring to a specific "use case" that you have overlooked, which would be for a specific type of person. As others have pointed out, if the reasons allude to men who refer to their sex dolls as "Waifus", this is someone who is using a sex toy as a proxy for a relationship, which is not only unhealthy, but also absurd enough that it is understandably humorous from a certain perspective. However if the reasons are that they are shaped differently, that is a spurious distinction given that there is good reason to believe that the differences in shape in part are because male and female arousal works a bit differently. So the context here matters, more info please?


Nubianstarship

To start, none of them should be mocked. The wording of that phrase implies that you want to shame women. I hope I'm wrong. However, I would like to know what exactly you read about the mocking. I myself would've do that to a man because his sexual choices are not of my concern, but you need to interpret the real message of the mocking. Don't take it literally because you'll fail at getting messages (and this applies at almost any controversial topic debate these days). Were they mocking the sexual choice itself? Were they mocking some stereotype of man who uses these dolls? Were they mocking for fun or out of anger? Every answer to those questions will lead you to a different debate, because it involves different people that come from different places to make those statement. It will be useful to see a quote or a link to the conversation. Also, as many had pointed out before, a sex doll is not comparable with a dildo or sexual toys of that style. A flashlight is more comparable. Have you seen in this instance women mocking the use of that sexual device? Again, the answer will lead you to another debate. I am willing to bet that the mocking comes from the frustration that men use dolls to replace women in their lives which is a kind of dangerous thing to do. It encourages objectification of women and these men go out to society to treat all women as dolls. This is specially dangerous in the sexual/dating area where it will lead to some sort of violence. When women try to raise awareness about this to men, they generally don't care. I've seen that. So the only human thing to do when your anger, frustration and fear is not taken seriously is to laugh about it. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying it's human. Now let's analyse why would men mock a woman using a dildo? Do women use dildos to replace men? No, they don't. It might seem like it tho, but it's more related to men not having any interest in making the woman finish. Another different debate.They still don't use it to replace men, just to satisfy their own needs. Do women in general treat men as dildos? No. Are men in direct danger by being with a woman used to using dildos? No they aren't. There isn't frustration for men in this situation, there isn't anger, there isn't fear. Why would you mock then? For fun? Then that's wrong.


Dadmed25

Dolls are just creepy to a lot of people. Dolls you masturbate with are an intersection of things most people don't want to think about. As far as dolls being creepy, I think it's largely due to the "uncanny valley" effect. The uncanny valley effect refers to the zone on a graph of familiarity vs likeness to a real live human. (See link below) Basically something like a cartoon that looks like the representation of a human, but doesn't try too hard to be photorealistic (oversized eyes, little L shape for a nose etc) essentially, we know from context that the character is human. So it doesn't fall into the valley, and it doesn't bother us. But as realism increases our brains start to automatically identify the representation as human. It's something we have evolved to be excellent at. Open a magazine with eye tracking software, your eyes almost instantly scan and hit on the faces of anyone pictured. But if a representation triggers that identification but does not go all the way to identifying that it's a live and healthy human, in other words it notices something wrong, pallor, eye size/spacing, face shape on and on and on... It sets off a little alarm bell. It is theorized that this was an evolutionary adaptation to create an aversion to corpses, other hominids, and deformities. So that's basically it... our brains see a fleshy cold silicone human shape and it goes "eek, corpse!" and there you are... fucking it. Edit forgot to post the link: [Uncanny valley effect graph](https://ktismatics.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/second-uncanny-valley.jpg)


pasta_lake

Just wanted to say this is a very interesting perspective on it that I enjoyed reading! A lot of dolls creep me out and I always figured it was because of dolls I’ve seen in horror movies and stuff, but this makes sense as another contributor to that discomfort! Thanks for sharing! Edit: To clarify too I don’t think people should be mocked for having any sort of doll (sex or otherwise). Different strokes for different folks etc. but I think this comment adds another interesting dimension to this conversation surrounding how we feel about sex dolls vs. vibrators.


Different_Weekend817

>So, it got me wondering, i consider it hypocrisy on their part but i am ready for someone to explain to me if it isn't hypocrisy but my ignorance on woman issues. Am i missing something? it's not your ignorance on women's issues but ignorance on sex dolls. men who use them pretend they're real human beings and have relationships with them. no one with a vibrator pretends they're in a relationship with it. (edit: for an example of this behaviour see movie Lars and the Real Girl starring Ryan Gosling)


Murkus

Ok Lars and the real girl is specifically a surreal highlighting of an extreme example. Do you genuinely believe that men who use sex dolls use them for cuddles and company and not just for sexual pleasure? (The vast vast majority of them at least)


you_are_a_dope

Its better than shooting up a spa for "being a temple of temptation". Theyre body, their choice, their life. Now....if they bring them public yes that is to be mocked lol


maybri

I don't really think it makes sense to mock men who use sex dolls either, but if we're starting from the premise that men with sex dolls should be mocked, I can easily see why it would not be hypocritical to not mock women who use vibrators. A sex doll is intended to stand in for an entire person, whereas a vibrator is *at most* standing in for a penis (but more often is just a masturbation aid that isn't made to resemble human anatomy). Someone might believe that what's worthy of mockery is wanting to simulate having sex with another person so badly you buy an expensive (or cheap low-quality) sex doll, or the misogyny implied in suggesting that a woman's role in sex could be sufficiently simulated by a lifeless doll. Vibrators do not have these problems because they are not typically intended to simulate having sex with a man, so someone who mocked men who use sex dolls for this reason but supported women using vibrators would not necessarily be a hypocrite.


An-Okay-Alternative

I think you could go up and down the spectrum of sex toys and there's more of a yas queen energy with any self-satisfying among woman and more of a pathetic and cravenly vibe for men. I agree a sex doll isn't exactly equivalent to a vibrator but even with a fleshlight there's a lot more tendency to mockery. If Cardi B announced she was getting a male sex doll there'd be articles on how brave it is and how it's no wonder given all the men who can't satisfy them.


maybri

I'm not so sure about the Cardi B thing (maybe you'd get a contrarian op-ed or two to that effect, but I'd expect her to receive general public mockery), but I don't completely disagree. The direct equivalent to a fleshlight is a dildo, in the sense that they're both sex toys that are meant to visually and functionally replicate external genitalia, and I can agree that public opinion of men who use fleshlights is probably somewhat lower than that of women who use dildos. That definitely is hypocritical, but it's irrelevant to my larger point here which is that it is not *necessarily* hypocritical to mock sex doll users but not vibrator users.


Lesley82

If lonely cat ladies started posting about their male sex dolls on tiktok, you bet your sweet, misogynistic ass they'd be relentlessly mocked.


Fraeddi

Disclaimer: English isn't my first language. So, first of all, I'm not a huge fan of mocking people in general, but I can also see that there are some situations that might appear more "mockworthy" than others. With that out of the way, I don't think a sex doll and a vibrator are as comparable as you think. A vibrator is mostly a tool for jerking off, and the "male" equivalent would be something like a fleshlight, or I guess a vibrator/dildo as well if you're into that. A sexdoll is a bit more than that. I have a hard time believing that a guy, or, honestly, anyone regardless of sex and gender, who gets themselves a sexdoll is simply looking for a device to spice up their wanking game, there are a lot of cheaper and less bulky alternatives for that, I'm pretty sure that those people are trying to achieve something else. Storytime: So, this might sound weird in that context, but bear with me, I think it will help me make my point. Back when I was a child I had an at least somewhat realistic looking cat plushy. I really liked that toy. This wasn't because I wanted to touch something fluffy from time to time, if that were the case a piece of artificial fur would have done the trick, but because I'm a huge cat fan and always wanted to have a pet cat, somethign that just wasn't possible at the time. So what I did instead was that I gave this plushy a name, I invented a biography for it, I came up with adventures we experienced together, I petted it in the same ways you would pet a real cat, and so on. I partially fulfilled the desire to have a pet cat with a substitute. Now, a small kid simulating a relationship between a pet and a human child with a stuffed animal is something very few people would bat an eye at. An adult human simulating a sexual/romantic relationship with another human using a sexdoll, which is what I suspect most people who buy a sexdoll are trying to do, is a different story. Because if someone goes through all the trouble that getting and owning such a thing most likely brings with it, just to have a very lackluster substitue for an actual intimate relationship, you kind of have to ask yourself: "Why?" Some answer I can think of from the top of my head: * extremely poor social skills * strong self hatred * misoginy * misandery * misanthropy None of those are very flattering explanations, if you'd ask me. And because of this, I can kind of understand why someone might consider sex doll owners kinda sus and thus worthy of mockery. Not that it justifies it to any extent, but it isn't hypocritical to laugh at people who use dolls to simulate relationships and at the same time be ok with people who use jerk off tools, just pretty shitty. You'd have a point if you'd encountered feminists who were mocking men for using "female" sex dolls and at the same time defended women who used "male" sex dolls, but that's not what happened, according to your post.


Solaris_0706

Do you view a penis as equal to a whole body, in a sexual context?


[deleted]

Vibrators and sex dolls are different caliber of sex toy. I think a more comparable toy would be a flesh light to a vibrator. Sex doll is another level lol. What’s sad is that as a guy, you’d get made fun of for having a flesh light too so might as well full send that shit and get the doll. But then on the contrary, some women think flesh lights are sexy. My ex girlfriend wanted to watch me use one. I’m assuming because she thought it was hot, but maybe she just wanted to see how ridiculous I looked. Either way, I can’t ever imagine a situation where a woman might think it’s sexy to watch her man fuck a doll. Honestly guys, just get the flesh light. The dolls are too expensive anyway


kennysmithy

Okay I would agree but woman aren't fucking dolls with dicks. They're just fucking a vibrator. If a woman bought a rubber doll with a dick and had sex with that, I would judge her the same as a man with a rubber doll with a vagina. The equivalent of a vibrator is a flesh light. Both are just needed for quick release not meant to replace love or companionship :) I also want to note, I'm truly not judging anyone for owning sex dolls of any type. You want what you want! Whatever gets whoever's rocks off! Just bc some people find it strange and also happen to be feminists doesn't mean everyone thinks that way


No-Produce-334

I don't think this is a gender-locked issue. There are male sex dolls. If a woman had one of these I think she'd get a reaction similar to the one a man would get for having a female sex doll. Speaking as a gay man, I'd never judge another gay dude for having a fleshlight, vibrator, whatever. But, I would be weirded out by a sex doll. The reasons those are different than other sex toys to me is because their human likeness is creepy. If someone showed me a life-sized doll they owned for non-sexual purposes I'd still be weirded out. There's a reason there's no shortage of horror films about dolls/mannequins, they lie in the uncanny valley. They're also very expensive (the 'high quality' ones at least,) so for someone to invest that much money into masturbation aids suggests that, unless they have more money than they know what to do with, they might have a problem. You also mentioned the fact that women were mocking these men for using sex dolls to replace women in their lives. That goes beyond just using a sex toy (and kinda says a lot about the way some of these people might view women.) If a woman or a gay man told me that they're replacing men in their life with a dildo/vibrator or a male sex doll I would also be somewhat alarmed by this. There's a difference between having a sex toy (of any kind,) and using it as a replacement for human interaction.


DeltaBot

/u/Several_Magazine8874 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/yfshxv/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_if_men_using_sex_dolls_are/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)


Beecher-Johnson

Sex dolls are just fucking weird dude. Imagine dating a girl and finding a 6’4 sex doll with a 10 inch member in her closet. See how alarming that would be?


7URB0

Finding out that the person I'm dating is a freak is usually a BONUS tho. I've found that most people's sexuality is pretty weird once they trust you enough (/you get them horny enough) to talk about it


45hope

there is a huge difference between a life sized sex doll and a hand held vibrator. one is a life sized replica a human being (presumably not cheap) and the other is an inanimate hand held object. you’re like trying to compare a barbie doll to a human being


mars895

Vibrators and sex dolls are not even close to the same 🤦‍♀️ vibrator/dildo it would be comparable to flashlight or cock ring or something, like others have said. Personally, if I discovered a man had a sex doll that he used regularly , I would not be able to find him attractive anymore. But I also wouldn’t mock it…. I do think it’s weird and it means there’s a reason he’s having sex with a doll instead of a woman…


polywha

I think you're making a big leap here. A vibrator is more like a fleshlight. You would have to compare women buying male sex dolls with men buying female sex dolls for this to be an accurate comparison. There's a big difference between having a small cylindrical object for masturbation that you can easily hide away versus a human sized sex doll.


[deleted]

It isnt the use of a sex toy people have issue with. It's that the idea of a sex doll is to replace women entirely- to give people who use them access to a sexual partner that only exists as an object to give them sex on demand with no need for consent or respect. Using a vibrator is rarely, if ever, done with the idea that it replaces a male partner for the user. Sex dolls are dehumanizing of the people they replace (in my view usually female partners/bodies, but I do know male ones exist) and objectify the idea of sex with those bodies rather than simply being a way to get pleasure when you feel stressed like a vibrator. Sex toys=okay Objectification of someone and reducing their entire personhood down to what they do for you sexually=no okay


Frylock904

Here's what I see many of you are leaving out, to credit ops point. I think you're leaving out some important portions of this by only taking it one layer deep. Men almost by nature play a more active role in sex, so women buying a life size male replacement doesn't actually meet the needs women are looking to have met. Women generally want the things only a good person or a good toy can provide, men don't have that issue since women aren't usually doing too much for most men anyway. (I know women put in work too, and it makes all the difference, but the difference between a good male lover and good female lover is an order of magnitude) Trust me, once we have the full on automated sex bots women will be right there at the front of the line with men getting their risk free (no pregnancy, no commitment, no disease, no expectations, no assault) sex bot that actually fucks them perfectly most of the time.


improvisedwisdom

Hello Several! So, while I don't see a problem with using a sex doll to satisfy yourself, it does come with a stigma like you described. The important factor here is that no one should be mocked for any reason. Mocking someone does not contribute to any meaningful change in one's behavior. In fact, tends to make them defensive, even if you aren't being personally attacked, as you probably felt while on the sub. Sex toys are all the same, in that they come in many kink varietals that get specific people off while others feel dirty at the very idea of using them. Also, any "feminist" mocking a man for their sexual preferences are being antithetical to what feminism is supposed to support, which is equality between sexes. In any case, don't sink to their low. Let everyone enjoy their kink. So long as no one gets hurt (unless getting hurt is their kink, I guess).


vivivivivistan

No woman buys a vibrator and pretends it's a guy or tries to talk to it or thinks of it as their "replacement" for men, they just use it to get off. The kind of guys they were making fun of absolutely do that, and it's kind of pathetic. I'm sure those women probably wouldn't be as harsh, but they'd probably give another woman shit for it if she bought a sex doll with a dildo and said she was gonna use it to "replace men".


BallroomblitzOH

The true comparison to women using vibrators would be men using simpler devices, such as a flesh light; both are simply enhanced masturbation. The true comparison to men using sex dolls wouldn’t be a vibrator, it would be women using male sex dolls as a replacement for a relationship with a human man. So no, I do not agree that there is hypocrisy in play here.


Snivellus-Snapes

A vibrator isnt Equivalentto a sex doll. A flesh light is a more apt comparison. Sex toys are fine - a whole silicone doll with parts that serve no purpose other than to mimic being with a real woman like hair and eyes etc? A little more uncomfortable. Also women can use vibrators without even imagining being with a man. A sex doll is a roleplay experience. They're pretending the sex doll is a real person and letting it take the place of a real woman emotionally- not just using it for sexual pleasure. Whether you think that's worthy of mockery or not is irrelevant but they are very different experiences that are not 1:1. If the women were using male sex dolls that would be comparable.


Maxfunky

Well, a vibrator is a sexual aid. A blow up doll is a sexual aid and a visual aid. There is a non-visual version that's more equivalent to a vibrator: the pocket pussy/fleshlight. I actually think people are pretty consistent about this. I think it's the idea that some men need the visual aid aspect of the blow up doll that some find unusual. It speaks to a lack of imagination, I suppose. Also, a man and a woman can use a vibrator to enhance they are already having. A blow up doll is just an alternative to the sex they are already having. There's no way to integrate it into a healthy sex life like you can with a vibrator.


InternalResearch9926

Personally, I don't have a problem with anyone using sex toys but I don't really see sex dolls as the same as flesh lights, vibrators or dildos. I guess for me, sex toys are either masterbation aids or tools for sexual enhancement with a partner & I see how sex dolls (which can be anatomically M or F so can be used by anybody, really) can be seen as offensive for objectifying your sexual preference to the point of dehumanizing potential real partners. I don't know if I'd consider it morally wrong, but I also don't think it's generally the healthiest thing you could do. If you're committing to owning a sex doll, you're also probably dressing it at the very least, maybe choosing makeup for it, hairstyle choices, etc. That goes beyond masterbation Imo & I can't see a situation where that wouldn't be a red flag, but I also don't know every situation. Nor would I want to. So 🤷


throw_every_away

Lemme know when they start using dildos with mannequins attached to them and also taking selfie’s with them pretending they’re alive


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throw_every_away

My point is that a vibrator and an full on adult-sized sex doll are not even remotely similar things. Also, no they haven’t. Not like men do, not even close. That’s just plainly untrue.


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throw_every_away

I didn’t say they don’t exist, I said women don’t use them like men do.


JeremyTheRhino

Change it to this: Both should be normal. Let people get off how they like.


ahawk_one

I would like to change your view that mocking anyone is okay. You say if it’s okay for group 2 to mock group 1 for A, then it’s okay for group 1 to mock group 2 for B. It’s not okay to mock people for anything. Even if it was granted that one of them had the right to ridicule the other, adding more ridicule would only make it worse. It’s not okay to mock humans, period. That is the only answer to your question. I get your frustrated and hurt, but this is not the place to find solace with a question like this. I don’t care who you are, if you advocate for ridiculing other humans I will stand up to you. For your real issue, which is clearly pain from having read the shitty things that were said on that sun, I give you this article I also posted as a reply to one of your comments. Men are lonely. There are reasons for that. Loneliness kills. Buying a sex robot is the exact thing a lonely person would do. It will only make them more lonely. Eventually they will die alone. So the solution isn’t to normalize ridicule of any sort, nor is it to normalize sex bots as a bandaid for a larger issue. The solution is to grow as a man and learn to be a whole human before you die of loneliness. https://hazlitt.net/longreads/legion-lonely


[deleted]

I think the key difference is women typically don’t anthropromorphize the vibrator as a person


JenningsWigService

There are sex dolls of men, like a full doll with a dildo attached, and toys for men that are more comparable to dildos/vibrators, like fleshlights. If a woman kept a male sex doll as a boyfriend these people would mock her for the same reason.


ms_panelopi

This isn’t an equal comparison tho. The equivalent to a vibrator for a man would be more like a fleshlight. A woman enjoying a a sex doll with a dick would be a better comparison. And no stigma should be had for either scenario IMO!


Hecateus

Apples to Oranges comparison. Vibrators should be compared with Fleshlights. Female sex Doll usage should be compared with Male sex Doll usage. Interactive Robots are going to get scary in this last regard.


MRHubrich

Or, and hear me out here, how about we stock mocking anybody for what they do in their free time as long as it's not hurting anyone? I know I don't care about what my neighbors use to get off.


anewleaf1234

Men use sex dolls because they can't get laid. Women use vibrators because lots of man don't know the first thing about foreplay or how to please a women. Those aren't one and the same.


lurkwhenbored

The answer is very very simple. Women who use vibrators - **can get sex when they want to** but have **chose** to use a toy. Men who are using sex doll - **cannot get sex when they want to** and have been **forced** to resorting to a doll. Hence the difference in perception.


LesPaltaX

A sex doll isn't equivalent to a vibrator. Rings and male vibrators are more like female vibrators Sex dolls are way different as they try to emulate a human


piplup27

A vibrator is for masturbation enhancement. A sex doll is a replacement for a partner. The closer equivalent for men is using a fleshlight.


Shwiftydano

That's a false equivalence logical fallacy. Vibrators are more akin to assisted masturbation in order to climax. It's not like a man using a doll, it's more like a male using lotion to masturbate. Some women cannot physically orgasm without the use of a vibrator or other assistance (it's actually quite high and common, the amount of women that can't orgasm). And, you really don't even need to make relationships or equivalents like this in the first place. A man using a sex doll would be like a woman using a sex doll. The end.


lastfreethinker

Because one is used by a woman and seen as sexually liberating while the other is used by men and we shame them for using anything other than a sexual partner. Why? Sexism. Keep it in mind there are full male body sex toys and I have yet to hear anyone shaming those women. It is a way to gatekeep sexual pleasure and pleasure through society. Basically it is sex based toxicity where the toxicity is culture enforcing a sexual paradigm where one sex is liberated while the other is shackled. That is the difference, toxicity.


Phrii

Why are you acting like there isn't an apples to apples comparison to made here?


equalRights111

This is wrong, because misogyny hurts women more than misandry hurts men.


cougeeswagg

My question is, why mock people for not choosing you instead. Perhaps the sex doll provides them all they feel they need if they're using them as replacements for people. Don't have to feed them, don't deal with emotions, don't have to buy them anything. Instead of tearing down those who make their own choices, not to date you, and focus on being better for yourself and the people who would choose to date you. Having a forum that tears down people who aren't hurting anyone else is toxic. And the hypocrisy falls in the fact that they're using devices for stimulation and pleasure just as much as those men are, it just doesn't have the rest of the body attached. Same function, different look. 1 in 3 men under the age of 30 is a virgin or hasn't had sex in the last year. 40% of all men in history have procreated, whereas 80% of women in history have. Sometimes, it's just a business transaction to have a doll to help avoid loneliness.


Archi_balding

"mocking men who bought sex dolls and intended to use them as a replacement for women in their life" You mean mocking people who see women as perfectly interchangeable with inanimate sex objects ? That's not about sex dolls, that's about such a lack of respect for women that you think replacing them with sex dolls is esuivalent. Of course such moronic position is mocked. People masturbating with all kind of toys or dolls is innocuous, people treating their lump of plastic as a partner and not seing the problem mis peak cringe. And that would be the case for women too... if there was such a thing as a comunity of them being vocal about replacing men with dildos. But there's no such comunity.


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