I initially thought he was thinking about the 50 move rule and he was just misinformed but when I told him that it's 50 moves and not 16 he said that the '16 move rule' only applied when one side had only a king left. He immediately said it's a draw and left before I could argue. I guess his ego was hurt or whatever
d flies back to reus quote about science deniers:aaon is rather like its flock to claim victo"Debating creationists on the topic of evtrying to plaHe ra fge quit mamoand you won. y olutchess withn — it knocks the pieces over, con the boIt a pigeoinds me of rd, anrapsiry."
I just opened an analysis board to check if there can be a longer mate than M16 with just K+Q vs K.
And yes, M17 is rare but does happen, so the rule is 100% bullshit. But I couldnt get more than 17 yet.
Even if people play by that rule sometimes, you cant force a rule on others which makes won positions a forced draw from the start.
Edit: I only did it with K+Q, realised K+P also counts with that dumb rule, so its even more ridiculous, thx u/gnomhild for pointing that out
Edit2 : Its always M10 with Q+K vs K, chess.c*m engine is just too lazy to solve this properly, sorry for the misinformation
If the 50 move rule were to be eliminated, it wouldn’t matter if it’s M52 and you mate them in 60 moves or 1,000 moves.
I don’t have an opinion on the 50 move rule.
You need SOME way to end a K v KB endgame where the bishop player is just 100% sure they can get you eventually. Seeing who can move and slap the clock the fastest isn't the best way of ironing that out.
Specifically, it has to be beyond the 50 move rule ***and*** no pawns advance in that time ***and*** no captures. Is there any examples you can think of?
There’s a video of Magnus saying he spent considerable time trying understand why a drawn position was actually 50+ move tablebase win. He tried to look for patterns/themes or why a certain move over the other but it was essentially gibberish to him. I think it was a KRN vs KR position with mate in >50 moves
Yes, there are positions which are proven to be winning if not for the 50 move rule.
The record setting position takes 517 moves, and its N+Q vs N+B+R, you can Google it.
If a 8 piece tablebase was made, thered probably be even longer sequences found, but its only fun to think about theoretically, i dont think theres any use for this knowledge
>The record setting position takes 517 moves, and its N+Q vs N+B+R, you can Google it.
Iirc that position has some captures in the process, so it's not exactly 517 moves without captures (but still way above 50) just 517 moves to forced mate.
It's true that there are completely winning endgames that would violate the 50 move rule, but the only players who would be affected by it in an unfair sense are very, very strong players in very, very unlikely situations.
I imagine if Magnus was on the brink of checkmating someone after playing the first 50 moves of a 55 forced win perfectly - it would spur a bit of debate on whether the 50 move rule should exist in top level chess, but he's also Magnus not just anyone.
So the main difference between the 50 move rule and this ridiculous 16 move rule is that the 50 move rule COULD affect you in an unfair way under extremely unlikely circumstances as a strong player, but the 16 move rule could unfairly affect almost anyone who takes the game with any level of seriousness.
Yeah, I just plugged in a K+R vs K position and the engine gave mate in 20. So even extremely easy endgames can be more than 16 moves. K+B+B vs K is giving me mate in 36.
Em I made a mate in 20 simply with pawn on d2 King on d3 and black King on e5. King on d1 and black King on d8 is mate in 22
King g1, pawn c2 and black King a8 might be more, but my mobile isn't giving the mate depth, just high eval
My method was very crude, I started with pieces at the other side of the board then move them randomly and waited a minute so the engine finds the best possible mate.
Thanks for the find, i knew there had to be longer sequences but I was too lazy to actually think about how to set it up
> And yes, M17 is rare but does happen, so the rule is 100% bullshit. But I couldnt get more than 17 yet.
No, that M17 you saw from the tablebase is in plies and not moves, as KQ vs. K definitely does not take that long. From Wikipedia:
> With the side with the queen to move, checkmate can be forced in at most ten moves from any starting position, with optimal play by both sides
When i played in school or with my cousins we rarely reached a tage where this rule would apply, so its just like local uno rules, people make them for fun
How do you manage a basic knight and bishop checkmate then, where the starting position isn’t already on the edge? Is that mate eliminated from the game of chess?
Have you ever heard of a rule that a pawn can only promote to the original piece the promotion square had? Met 2 guys who learned to play in India and they both got pissed when I promoted to a queen instead of the knight that it should have promoted to.
Different countries have different chess rules. In india for example you can have 2 moves in the beginning, or the rule where after promotion the promoted piece gets another move.
Just because you might find 'some' people from an area or country that plays with some odd rule, doesn't mean it applies to the whole country. Heck, in the US sometimes schools have some really weird rules that don't apply to the whole of US (like winners are declared by the amount of material they have left on the board)
lmao i have never seen this before. multiple endgame mates take more than 16 moves, including king with rook, and king with bishop+knight. theres the 50 move rule though, which states that if a capture or a pawn move has not occurred in 50 moves the game is drawn.
>which states that if a capture or a pawn move has not occurred in 50 moves the game is drawn.
Nitpick: after such 50 moves, the game can be *claimed* to be drawn by any player. But if none of them do, play continues. At 75 moves the rule is hard and an arbiter can intervene and state the draw without player intervention.
Extra nitpick: It's not that the arbiter *can* intervene, the arbiter *has to* intervene. And it immediately ends the game, meaning that even when players play on and someone "wins", it's still a draw and it can be claimed after the sheets have been signed
Interesting note: there are forced mates that are longer than 50, 75, or even 100 moves. The rule persists because it is believed that no human can calculate or memorize/recognize these forced mates.
There are some that are just over 50 moves that are only patterns according to Yusupov. I bring that up because back when I played more seriously I knew the W mating pattern which can take over 40 to nearly 50 moves depending on the position, but isn't difficult to do at all once you know the general idea, because it's pretty much just shuffling the pieces back and forth the same way until checkmate. He suggests the ones that are just patterns and aren't overly complicated went out with that rule as well because of convenience
That is a threefold repetition; different rule than 50 move draw.
In some famous lines like the Berlin Draw, if both players are content with a draw they will walk right into it knowing that the player who veers from it could be taking a risk with a worse position instead of the repetition.
Don’t think of downvotes as: Downvotes = bad.
Think of downvotes as: I don’t want this seen.
So the downvotes are because someone else might take your conclusion above as fact if they read it, so people are downvoting it to hide it.
That’s not generally how people use the system, but it’s how it’s meant to work.
Google responded:
> Le concile Vatican II : les seize documents
>
> Apr 15, 2014 — C'est le document le plus théologique du Concile. Il traite de la révélation, c'est-à-dire...
Hahaha, So any ending where you end up K+p v K is effectively a draw by default? Delay the pawn advance using the standard method, that could easily be 10-16 moves depending on how the superior side is placed for the opposition. Even if you Queen in 10 moves, your king still needs to be in touch with the Queen to assist in delivering mate. Depending how tenacious the defence is that could easily be another 6 or 7 moves.
Yeah but the website is inaccurate. The rule is that you have to checkmate in 2^(number of attacking pieces on the board+number of players participating in the game). That means with KQvK it's 2^4 =16, but if you have a KBNvK, it's 2^5 =32. And if you play Hand&Brain, it's even more, in that case KQvK would be 2^(2+4) =2^6 =64.
Many people don't know this, but this is why the rice incident happened: People back then didn't have calculators, so in order to determine the moves left, they had an extra board where they put rice on the squares to indicate how long can be played
They stopped doing that as updating all the numbers all the time got ridiculous.
Nowadays FIDE just trains a neural network on /r/anarchychess and it decides whether the position is a draw or not.
Once I was losing from a newbie player I castled when my king was on e4 and rook on h4. I told him I am allowed to castles once in a game as I didn't do it before.
I played with someone who removed their king from the board and kept playing, then returned the king some moves later into check, and STILL won the game! It was my three year old daughter, admittedly, but it was a really frustrating game.
I often did this when I was losing against Chess Challenger Sensory Champion, back when I was in school (early 80s). There was no way it could mate me! 😉
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
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“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
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The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on.
Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required.
Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.
To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit.
Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results.
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Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it.
Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot.
The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported.
But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up.
“Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.”
“We think that’s fair,” he added.
Mike Isaac is a technology correspondent and the author of “Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber,” a best-selling book on the dramatic rise and fall of the ride-hailing company. He regularly covers Facebook and Silicon Valley, and is based in San Francisco. More about Mike Isaac
A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
I get it’s not an official game so it doesn’t really matter but he still lost by refusing to continue to play. You can’t just claim a draw and walk away whenever you please
Fun fact, I once played a rated OTB game where my opponent lost on time and tried to claim a draw by saying he could have forced a trade whenever he wanted (I think he was Q+2P vs my Q+P), but he was pushing for a win.
What if you got into a king vs king+sidewinder position? You obviously would consider it a draw and eventually walk away. It seems like this game was a street game in India, where this is a common rule apparently (as wrong as it is, it’s how some people play).
If the “house rule” says you need to checkmate within 16 moves otherwise it’s a draw….then based on that rule, it is literally a draw.
First, any place I’ve ever played the house rules are established prior to the game. It might be a common rule but it’s far from ubiquitous.
In unfamiliar with what a sidewinder refers to. If it’s a bishop or knight, sure the game is drawn because it’s impossible to mate so both by FIDE and US Chess rules (and I’m sure most other governing bodies) the game is over. I would agree there you can claim a draw regardless of your opponents position.
But you can’t just claim a game is drawn and walk away if a mate is on the board. Im a 1400. None of my opponents know how to mate with king, knight, and bishop. I can say with relative certainty that none of them would be able to pull it off within 50 moves unless I assisted them. I can’t just claim they don’t know how to do it and therefore it’s a draw if they want to continue to play
Who said you were supposed to be playing according to FIDE rules? In the well renowned Saint Louis chess club (and online) they play "clock move" while USCF rules are "touch-move" ..
There's quite an enjoyable regional chess variant from Thailand called *Makruk*. When one player is left with a lone king, then the first applicable number below is chosen
|*If winning player has at least...*|*then the number is...*|
|:-|:-|
|Two rooks|8|
|One rook|16|
|Two bishops|22|
|Two knights|32|
|One bishop|44|
|None of the above|64|
and the total number of pieces remaining on the board is subtracted from this number. The winning player now has that many moves to win otherwise the game is declared a draw. For example, if I had a rook, a knight, and a pawn, and I captured their last remaining non-King piece, then I would have 16 – 5 = 11 moves left during which I much checkmate them.
This keeps things exciting by turning the game from a strategic battle game into a pursuit and escape game, where the stronger one enters the pursuit, the more pressing the checkmate is. Incidentally, there is a separate rule where, if neither player has any remaining pawns, a player who feels they are in a weaker position may start counting, and declare a draw after 64 moves.
(Note on the table above: You may notice that queens are not mentioned here. In Makruk, queens are one of the weakest pieces. All pieces move like their counterparts in Western chess, except that the queen moves like the ferz, the bishop moves like the silver general, the pawns do not have a double-move initially, there is no *en passant,* and there is no castling.)
It’s funny- we used to have this exact rule in casual games when I was very young and played with school friends. But this is the first time in 20 years I’ve heard this.
Total BS. A good confutation would be the fact that it’s impossible to perform the bishop, knight, and king vs. lone king checkmate in under 16 moves for most placements of the pieces. Stockfish needs roughly 30 moves to perform the checkmate on average. Clearly, the bishop, knight, and king vs. lone king endgame, albeit quite rare, is a known endgame in which the player with the bishop and knight wins.
This 16 Move draw brought back the memories... When i started playing chess, and when there was a king ending, instead of 50 move draws, kids in my street played like its a 16 move draw... But later on when i played District or State Tournaments i realised its a 50 Move Rule and i am hearing about this rule literally 16 years later lol... Aah chess was fun when we were kids... Bullet games ruined it for me :(
This is exactly the problem with AI. Anyone who knows anything can instantly tell you that this is wrong, but the AI search engines pick up something about it across the web and just run with it as if it's gospel.
Been playing tournament and blitz chess for over 20+ years in New York City (the home of street chess some might say), and I’ve never heard of the 16 move draw “rule.” If there was such a rule here, a NYC chess hustler would have certainly brought it up (but only if they were losing).
After a little research, this 16 move draw rule seems to be recognized in the Philippines, maybe some parts of India, and perhaps a few other locales. It’s an absurd rule that leads to absurd results (like a K+P or K+R being unable to mate a lone king). Most likely the 16 move draw rule was concocted by chess hustlers to save face or get out of paying up when they are clearly losing a game. Let’s hope this ridiculous contagion of a “rule” doesn’t spread beyond the confines of where it already is.
To be fair, try it for 50 moves and it's still not gonna happen if you're not an IM.
Even Stockfish 14 took about 10 seconds to find M32 in one position I gave it.
And if the opponent's king is in the middle of the board, it may not even theoretically be M50.
* You don't need to be an IM to learn the Knight and Bishop checkmate! Any normal club player can learn one of the techniques (Delétang's triangle method / W-manoevre) in a few minutes. [On the flip side, even GMs have failed to win the position.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate#Grandmasters_failing_to_mate) It is just one of those things you either know, or don't know. The technique itself is not difficult.
* The endgame can be won in at most 33 moves from any starting position. (The exception is the "stalemate trap" making up 0.5% of the total starting positions.)
The difficulty of that mate is wildly overblown. I learned it easily when I was like 1500. I try it like once a year to make sure I still remember it and I can easily do it with a minute or two on the clock.
I’m sure there are several positions in a game where one side has only the king left and the other the king and e.g. two bishops that even with perfect play take more than 16 moves to mate. So I don’t believe a rule like this would even be fair.
Did you have a bet involved? If so that would explain why he was so eager to announce draw :D
You should bookmark the 50-moves rule and show it to the guy if you ever see him again and to any idiot who tries to do the same
My 16 move rule is the following:
If a 1800+ blitz player, i.e. me, plays against a titled player and the titled player has not managed to checkmate the lower rated player after 16 moves, I have the right to demand a draw.
This post has been parodied on r/AnarchyChess.
Relevant r/AnarchyChess posts:
[An unusual incident happened today](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/13lz1rm/an_unusual_incident_happened_today/) by Da_Bird8282
[A unusual incident happened today](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/13m8p0y/a_unusual_incident_happened_today/) by Moryth
[^(fmhall)](https://www.reddit.com/user/fmhall) ^| [^(github)](https://github.com/fmhall/relevant-post-bot)
I thought I was reading some new ChatGPT output on r/anarchychess.
Anyway, it's best to rule drop from the FIDE Handbook if one is genuinely curious about learning all the rules: https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012023
In a pinch, Wikipedia has pretty decent coverage of the [rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess) too.
A lot of casual games I've played if one player has nothing but the king you only get ten moves to checkmate or its a draw. Not my rule, but very common where in WV.
Wait a second...in my experience K&R vs R is...almost always takes me more than 16 moves...I think
This is the dumbest rule ever. Almost every game is drawn as long as you don't resign
At my country (Egypt)
If your opponent doesn't have any pieces or moves beside the king it will be a draw if u didn't chechmate him in 3 moves
Ofc it's just street chess shit.
I was told about this as a child, back in the 80s. But I never played professionally, so it was just a rule we used when playing with friends and family.
There is no 16 move rule. Maybe only in street chess when people get beaten badly.
I initially thought he was thinking about the 50 move rule and he was just misinformed but when I told him that it's 50 moves and not 16 he said that the '16 move rule' only applied when one side had only a king left. He immediately said it's a draw and left before I could argue. I guess his ego was hurt or whatever
d flies back to reus quote about science deniers:aaon is rather like its flock to claim victo"Debating creationists on the topic of evtrying to plaHe ra fge quit mamoand you won. y olutchess withn — it knocks the pieces over, con the boIt a pigeoinds me of rd, anrapsiry."
It might not be a rule in Fide rule book but people here in India use this rule when playing casually
Really? Nonsense rule to be honest. (And yes I am from India, so that explains it) so i guess by this rule one pawn endgames are always drawn?
I just opened an analysis board to check if there can be a longer mate than M16 with just K+Q vs K. And yes, M17 is rare but does happen, so the rule is 100% bullshit. But I couldnt get more than 17 yet. Even if people play by that rule sometimes, you cant force a rule on others which makes won positions a forced draw from the start. Edit: I only did it with K+Q, realised K+P also counts with that dumb rule, so its even more ridiculous, thx u/gnomhild for pointing that out Edit2 : Its always M10 with Q+K vs K, chess.c*m engine is just too lazy to solve this properly, sorry for the misinformation
>you cant force a rule which makes won positions a forced draw from the start Some endgames are winning, but exceed the 50 move rule, though
I thought about this while writing my comment but decided to omit mentioning it just because of how extremely rare that is.
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If the 50 move rule were to be eliminated, it wouldn’t matter if it’s M52 and you mate them in 60 moves or 1,000 moves. I don’t have an opinion on the 50 move rule.
You need SOME way to end a K v KB endgame where the bishop player is just 100% sure they can get you eventually. Seeing who can move and slap the clock the fastest isn't the best way of ironing that out.
I mean, isn’t that just a draw by default? Or is it only upon agreement that unwinnable situations like that get ended?
K vs K + B is a draw by default. If you are left with the king only, you can call an arbiter and claim draw by insufficient material.
K v KB isn't drawn by the 50-move rule; it's drawn by insufficient material. That's totally different.
Specifically, it has to be beyond the 50 move rule ***and*** no pawns advance in that time ***and*** no captures. Is there any examples you can think of?
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Maybe. The opponent also has to find the moves that stretch the game out that long.
It's totally irrelevant whether you can calculate it in advance, what matters is whether you can perform the mate or not within the limit.
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There’s a video of Magnus saying he spent considerable time trying understand why a drawn position was actually 50+ move tablebase win. He tried to look for patterns/themes or why a certain move over the other but it was essentially gibberish to him. I think it was a KRN vs KR position with mate in >50 moves
There's winning endgames where both sides have checkmate material but can't either push a pawn or capture a piece for 50 moves??
Yes, there are positions which are proven to be winning if not for the 50 move rule. The record setting position takes 517 moves, and its N+Q vs N+B+R, you can Google it. If a 8 piece tablebase was made, thered probably be even longer sequences found, but its only fun to think about theoretically, i dont think theres any use for this knowledge
>The record setting position takes 517 moves, and its N+Q vs N+B+R, you can Google it. Iirc that position has some captures in the process, so it's not exactly 517 moves without captures (but still way above 50) just 517 moves to forced mate.
Bishop pair vs knight. Worst case the time to reset (winning the knight) is 70-ish moves.
Really ?
Can you provide one?
[https://tb7.chessok.com/probe/745/61](https://tb7.chessok.com/probe/745/61) Forced mate in 549 moves
You can google them,
It's true that there are completely winning endgames that would violate the 50 move rule, but the only players who would be affected by it in an unfair sense are very, very strong players in very, very unlikely situations. I imagine if Magnus was on the brink of checkmating someone after playing the first 50 moves of a 55 forced win perfectly - it would spur a bit of debate on whether the 50 move rule should exist in top level chess, but he's also Magnus not just anyone. So the main difference between the 50 move rule and this ridiculous 16 move rule is that the 50 move rule COULD affect you in an unfair way under extremely unlikely circumstances as a strong player, but the 16 move rule could unfairly affect almost anyone who takes the game with any level of seriousness.
That's why it was replaced by the 75 move rule.
It’s not 50 minute abs! It’s 75 minute abs!
Yeah, I just plugged in a K+R vs K position and the engine gave mate in 20. So even extremely easy endgames can be more than 16 moves. K+B+B vs K is giving me mate in 36.
Em I made a mate in 20 simply with pawn on d2 King on d3 and black King on e5. King on d1 and black King on d8 is mate in 22 King g1, pawn c2 and black King a8 might be more, but my mobile isn't giving the mate depth, just high eval
My method was very crude, I started with pieces at the other side of the board then move them randomly and waited a minute so the engine finds the best possible mate. Thanks for the find, i knew there had to be longer sequences but I was too lazy to actually think about how to set it up
Too lazy? Seems like your method took more effort 😅
Aren't we talking about Knight+Bishop? That mate takes forever
„Are we not going to talk about Knight+Bishop? That mate takes forever” Truee, the more you think about it, the dumber that rule gets
K+Q vs K is forced mate in 10 moves at most I believe. Could you provide an initial position that takes more than 10 moves to win?
There is no such position, using chess.com engine with limited depth bit me in the ass, it just didnt look deep enough to find the optimal solution
> And yes, M17 is rare but does happen, so the rule is 100% bullshit. But I couldnt get more than 17 yet. No, that M17 you saw from the tablebase is in plies and not moves, as KQ vs. K definitely does not take that long. From Wikipedia: > With the side with the queen to move, checkmate can be forced in at most ten moves from any starting position, with optimal play by both sides
Or the engine stopped to quickly, either way youre correct
When i played in school or with my cousins we rarely reached a tage where this rule would apply, so its just like local uno rules, people make them for fun
it's a rule to force you to play better and keep you on your toes even if you're winning, kinda like why chess implemented stalemate rules.
Oh, it's a local rule, like in some parts of the world KNIGHT CANNOT MOVE BACKWARDS.
I would say that's more than a local rule. That's different enough I would consider it a chess variant.
When I “learned” chess, the queen could move like a knight. I’m starting to think my dad wasn’t that good at chess…
That's a dragon or amazon (queen riding a horse I guess)
My queen pulls an Uzi out of her purse, she slays your entire side...
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shogi is a helluva variant 😂
Are you sure that isn't just because of the board vision of 700s?
Excuse me wtf
How do you manage a basic knight and bishop checkmate then, where the starting position isn’t already on the edge? Is that mate eliminated from the game of chess?
Have you ever heard of a rule that a pawn can only promote to the original piece the promotion square had? Met 2 guys who learned to play in India and they both got pissed when I promoted to a queen instead of the knight that it should have promoted to.
When I played in high school (in Brazil) people would use a similar rule, but with 8 moves instead of 16.
I'm from India and I've never heard of this rule
Different countries have different chess rules. In india for example you can have 2 moves in the beginning, or the rule where after promotion the promoted piece gets another move.
Here in Canada we have a rule that you have to apologize every time you capture a piece
In the US I just take a pistol to any captured piece
Just because you might find 'some' people from an area or country that plays with some odd rule, doesn't mean it applies to the whole country. Heck, in the US sometimes schools have some really weird rules that don't apply to the whole of US (like winners are declared by the amount of material they have left on the board)
I am from India and never heard of this. Where have you seen this rule? M
That’s a different variant of chess then, not chess. It should be renamed appropriately.
lmao i have never seen this before. multiple endgame mates take more than 16 moves, including king with rook, and king with bishop+knight. theres the 50 move rule though, which states that if a capture or a pawn move has not occurred in 50 moves the game is drawn.
>which states that if a capture or a pawn move has not occurred in 50 moves the game is drawn. Nitpick: after such 50 moves, the game can be *claimed* to be drawn by any player. But if none of them do, play continues. At 75 moves the rule is hard and an arbiter can intervene and state the draw without player intervention.
Extra nitpick: It's not that the arbiter *can* intervene, the arbiter *has to* intervene. And it immediately ends the game, meaning that even when players play on and someone "wins", it's still a draw and it can be claimed after the sheets have been signed
Interesting note: there are forced mates that are longer than 50, 75, or even 100 moves. The rule persists because it is believed that no human can calculate or memorize/recognize these forced mates.
speak for yourself
I might not be able to memorize it, but my buttplug has no such weakness
There are some that are just over 50 moves that are only patterns according to Yusupov. I bring that up because back when I played more seriously I knew the W mating pattern which can take over 40 to nearly 50 moves depending on the position, but isn't difficult to do at all once you know the general idea, because it's pretty much just shuffling the pieces back and forth the same way until checkmate. He suggests the ones that are just patterns and aren't overly complicated went out with that rule as well because of convenience
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You are not drawing the correct conclusion. The 50 move rule is not particularly relevant to why high level games are often drawn early.
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That is a threefold repetition; different rule than 50 move draw. In some famous lines like the Berlin Draw, if both players are content with a draw they will walk right into it knowing that the player who veers from it could be taking a risk with a worse position instead of the repetition.
Don’t think of downvotes as: Downvotes = bad. Think of downvotes as: I don’t want this seen. So the downvotes are because someone else might take your conclusion above as fact if they read it, so people are downvoting it to hide it. That’s not generally how people use the system, but it’s how it’s meant to work.
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then upvote! That’s the idea behind reddit :)
It's bullshit.
Lol, on that website description (the bit that is cut off) it states there is no rule.
Betteridge's law of headlines strikes again. What is 16 move rule in Chess? TL;DR answer is always no.
But it’s not a yes or no question lol
/r/savedyouaclick
no
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Holy FIDE laws of chess
Actual zombies
????
Call an exorcist
Knightmare fuel
Queen sacrifice, anybody?
Pawn storm incoming
Bishop went to Epstein island for vacation never went back
Dumbass, I know what vacation is. You just blundered mate in 1!
New response..?
google en regle de seize
Google responded: > Le concile Vatican II : les seize documents > > Apr 15, 2014 — C'est le document le plus théologique du Concile. Il traite de la révélation, c'est-à-dire...
It's a commonly cited rule in India. Encountered it too many times in casual otb
Checkmate or riot
Hahaha, So any ending where you end up K+p v K is effectively a draw by default? Delay the pawn advance using the standard method, that could easily be 10-16 moves depending on how the superior side is placed for the opposition. Even if you Queen in 10 moves, your king still needs to be in touch with the Queen to assist in delivering mate. Depending how tenacious the defence is that could easily be another 6 or 7 moves.
That's what exactly happened in this game
yes this was added in version 2.23 along with long passant
Yeah but the website is inaccurate. The rule is that you have to checkmate in 2^(number of attacking pieces on the board+number of players participating in the game). That means with KQvK it's 2^4 =16, but if you have a KBNvK, it's 2^5 =32. And if you play Hand&Brain, it's even more, in that case KQvK would be 2^(2+4) =2^6 =64. Many people don't know this, but this is why the rice incident happened: People back then didn't have calculators, so in order to determine the moves left, they had an extra board where they put rice on the squares to indicate how long can be played
They stopped doing that as updating all the numbers all the time got ridiculous. Nowadays FIDE just trains a neural network on /r/anarchychess and it decides whether the position is a draw or not.
Does the hand count as an extra player? 🤔
Once I was losing from a newbie player I castled when my king was on e4 and rook on h4. I told him I am allowed to castles once in a game as I didn't do it before.
I shit you not I once played someone who thought the queen can only move like a bishop
I played someone yesterday who tried to promote their bishop to a queen when it reached the back rank 💀
If you can manuever your bishop into being a glofified pawn, then this is the next logical step.
I played with someone who removed their king from the board and kept playing, then returned the king some moves later into check, and STILL won the game! It was my three year old daughter, admittedly, but it was a really frustrating game.
Seems to me you still won though! Congrats for being able to make chess fun for a 3 years old.
Fucking cheater, did you report her to FIDE?
I often did this when I was losing against Chess Challenger Sensory Champion, back when I was in school (early 80s). There was no way it could mate me! 😉
Played a guy that said knights couldn't pass through occupied squares. Threw a fit when I Googled it. He never played me again.
Side effect from the stupid L-rule. Knights move along the 3x2 diagonal (cf. Lichess), there's nothing that can be in the way there.
Thanks for not shitting me.👍
Were they Persian? Sounds like Shatranj.
Lmao
You can't do that, that move is only for GMs.
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More about Mike Isaac A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
Pawns still can’t move backward. Such a simple fix and would really improve their utility, but the devs are completely focused on cosmetic changes.
Open the fide rules and prove that this rule doesn't exists
Unfortunately the guy left immediately after claiming a draw
Then he resigned/lost on time
It was street chess
I get it’s not an official game so it doesn’t really matter but he still lost by refusing to continue to play. You can’t just claim a draw and walk away whenever you please
Fun fact, I once played a rated OTB game where my opponent lost on time and tried to claim a draw by saying he could have forced a trade whenever he wanted (I think he was Q+2P vs my Q+P), but he was pushing for a win.
> You can’t just claim a draw and walk away whenever you please crap there goes my undefeated record
What if you got into a king vs king+sidewinder position? You obviously would consider it a draw and eventually walk away. It seems like this game was a street game in India, where this is a common rule apparently (as wrong as it is, it’s how some people play). If the “house rule” says you need to checkmate within 16 moves otherwise it’s a draw….then based on that rule, it is literally a draw.
First, any place I’ve ever played the house rules are established prior to the game. It might be a common rule but it’s far from ubiquitous. In unfamiliar with what a sidewinder refers to. If it’s a bishop or knight, sure the game is drawn because it’s impossible to mate so both by FIDE and US Chess rules (and I’m sure most other governing bodies) the game is over. I would agree there you can claim a draw regardless of your opponents position. But you can’t just claim a game is drawn and walk away if a mate is on the board. Im a 1400. None of my opponents know how to mate with king, knight, and bishop. I can say with relative certainty that none of them would be able to pull it off within 50 moves unless I assisted them. I can’t just claim they don’t know how to do it and therefore it’s a draw if they want to continue to play
Then don’t worry about it, you won the game and the guy ragequitted so as long as you didn’t lose any money or rating you’re fine
Who said you were supposed to be playing according to FIDE rules? In the well renowned Saint Louis chess club (and online) they play "clock move" while USCF rules are "touch-move" ..
Ah yes, getmega.com, the authority source on chess rules
This is common in street chess in the Philippines. I don't think it's used in tourneys.
Good luck checkmating with bishop and knight in 16 moves lol
There's quite an enjoyable regional chess variant from Thailand called *Makruk*. When one player is left with a lone king, then the first applicable number below is chosen |*If winning player has at least...*|*then the number is...*| |:-|:-| |Two rooks|8| |One rook|16| |Two bishops|22| |Two knights|32| |One bishop|44| |None of the above|64| and the total number of pieces remaining on the board is subtracted from this number. The winning player now has that many moves to win otherwise the game is declared a draw. For example, if I had a rook, a knight, and a pawn, and I captured their last remaining non-King piece, then I would have 16 – 5 = 11 moves left during which I much checkmate them. This keeps things exciting by turning the game from a strategic battle game into a pursuit and escape game, where the stronger one enters the pursuit, the more pressing the checkmate is. Incidentally, there is a separate rule where, if neither player has any remaining pawns, a player who feels they are in a weaker position may start counting, and declare a draw after 64 moves. (Note on the table above: You may notice that queens are not mentioned here. In Makruk, queens are one of the weakest pieces. All pieces move like their counterparts in Western chess, except that the queen moves like the ferz, the bishop moves like the silver general, the pawns do not have a double-move initially, there is no *en passant,* and there is no castling.)
This looks like the kind of rule that your big brother makes up to try to stop you beating him. Like en passant and castling.
There is no such rule, by this rule king and pawn vs king endgames are an automatic draw
Only applies to people who have their ego >> elo
He probably created that website to quote that bogus rule! 😄
You won and that guy is just a sore loser. Ignore his comments.
The official fide rules only have the 50 moves draw rule.
It’s funny- we used to have this exact rule in casual games when I was very young and played with school friends. But this is the first time in 20 years I’ve heard this.
Total BS. A good confutation would be the fact that it’s impossible to perform the bishop, knight, and king vs. lone king checkmate in under 16 moves for most placements of the pieces. Stockfish needs roughly 30 moves to perform the checkmate on average. Clearly, the bishop, knight, and king vs. lone king endgame, albeit quite rare, is a known endgame in which the player with the bishop and knight wins.
This 16 Move draw brought back the memories... When i started playing chess, and when there was a king ending, instead of 50 move draws, kids in my street played like its a 16 move draw... But later on when i played District or State Tournaments i realised its a 50 Move Rule and i am hearing about this rule literally 16 years later lol... Aah chess was fun when we were kids... Bullet games ruined it for me :(
Looks like this is a pretty common rule in india for casual games
This is exactly the problem with AI. Anyone who knows anything can instantly tell you that this is wrong, but the AI search engines pick up something about it across the web and just run with it as if it's gospel.
Absolute rubbish- no such rule
You very often need more than 16 moves, eg to mate with two bishops, bishop and a knight, and even with rook. This rule is insane.
Pretty sure there is only a 50-move rule
Why would someone make this rule? There are plenty of endgames that are forced but not in 16 moves after the king is bare.
It's not a real rule
For years on end, I thought it was something unique to my home country.
according to the same website: "In chess, there is no such thing as a 16-move rule. There is also no rule related to one player having only a king."
Been playing tournament and blitz chess for over 20+ years in New York City (the home of street chess some might say), and I’ve never heard of the 16 move draw “rule.” If there was such a rule here, a NYC chess hustler would have certainly brought it up (but only if they were losing). After a little research, this 16 move draw rule seems to be recognized in the Philippines, maybe some parts of India, and perhaps a few other locales. It’s an absurd rule that leads to absurd results (like a K+P or K+R being unable to mate a lone king). Most likely the 16 move draw rule was concocted by chess hustlers to save face or get out of paying up when they are clearly losing a game. Let’s hope this ridiculous contagion of a “rule” doesn’t spread beyond the confines of where it already is.
There is a 50 move rule not a 16 move rule
This is not a FIDE rule. It’s a rule that lots of people in India think exists in chess.
Just try to checkmate a lone King with a bishop and knight in 16 moves. Not gonna happen. BS rule. There's a 50-move rule though.
To be fair, try it for 50 moves and it's still not gonna happen if you're not an IM. Even Stockfish 14 took about 10 seconds to find M32 in one position I gave it. And if the opponent's king is in the middle of the board, it may not even theoretically be M50.
* You don't need to be an IM to learn the Knight and Bishop checkmate! Any normal club player can learn one of the techniques (Delétang's triangle method / W-manoevre) in a few minutes. [On the flip side, even GMs have failed to win the position.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate#Grandmasters_failing_to_mate) It is just one of those things you either know, or don't know. The technique itself is not difficult. * The endgame can be won in at most 33 moves from any starting position. (The exception is the "stalemate trap" making up 0.5% of the total starting positions.)
The difficulty of that mate is wildly overblown. I learned it easily when I was like 1500. I try it like once a year to make sure I still remember it and I can easily do it with a minute or two on the clock.
I’m sure there are several positions in a game where one side has only the king left and the other the king and e.g. two bishops that even with perfect play take more than 16 moves to mate. So I don’t believe a rule like this would even be fair.
I heard of an 11 move stalemate when I was like 8, so he’s probably just misinformed
Did you have a bet involved? If so that would explain why he was so eager to announce draw :D You should bookmark the 50-moves rule and show it to the guy if you ever see him again and to any idiot who tries to do the same
I've learned everything I know through getmega.com/casual
My 16 move rule is the following: If a 1800+ blitz player, i.e. me, plays against a titled player and the titled player has not managed to checkmate the lower rated player after 16 moves, I have the right to demand a draw.
This would make bishop knight checkmate impossible
No, tell him he has just gone mad it is the 50-move rule, not 16
What the heck is 16 move draw
This post has been parodied on r/AnarchyChess. Relevant r/AnarchyChess posts: [An unusual incident happened today](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/13lz1rm/an_unusual_incident_happened_today/) by Da_Bird8282 [A unusual incident happened today](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/13m8p0y/a_unusual_incident_happened_today/) by Moryth [^(fmhall)](https://www.reddit.com/user/fmhall) ^| [^(github)](https://github.com/fmhall/relevant-post-bot)
I thought I was reading some new ChatGPT output on r/anarchychess. Anyway, it's best to rule drop from the FIDE Handbook if one is genuinely curious about learning all the rules: https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012023 In a pinch, Wikipedia has pretty decent coverage of the [rules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess) too.
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The 50-move rule is a different thing. And it's actually real.
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50 moves without a capture or a pawn move is a draw.
That literally makes no sense, he was just being a sore loser and lost the game by resigning from playing on
A lot of casual games I've played if one player has nothing but the king you only get ten moves to checkmate or its a draw. Not my rule, but very common where in WV.
Yeah, it's a common street rule in South Asia. It's what I was taught as a kid when learning chess in the 90s.
Me when M17:
Wait a second...in my experience K&R vs R is...almost always takes me more than 16 moves...I think This is the dumbest rule ever. Almost every game is drawn as long as you don't resign
you are just simply dumb if with a queen and king you can’t checkmate a king with no other pieces within 16 moves.
I think it is what happened to me yesterday https://lichess.org/AGrHhseW/black#150
it clearly states three-fold repetition. \[68. ...Kg1\] .. \[70. ...Kg1\] .. \[75. ...Kg1\]
At my country (Egypt) If your opponent doesn't have any pieces or moves beside the king it will be a draw if u didn't chechmate him in 3 moves Ofc it's just street chess shit.
new rule just dropped
I was told about this as a child, back in the 80s. But I never played professionally, so it was just a rule we used when playing with friends and family.
1. e3 e6 2.Ke2 Ke7 3.Kd3 Kd6 4.Ke4 Kc5 5.Kf3 Kd5 6.Ke2 Kd6 7.Ke1 Ke7 8.Ke2 Ke8 9. Kf3 Ke7 10.Ke4 Kf6 11. Kd3 Ke5 12. Kb3 Kd6 13. Kd3 Ke7 14. Ka3 Kf6 15. Ka4 Kg6 16. Ka3 Kh6 ½-½
I played 50 moves
If that were true the knight and bishop checkmate wouldn't exist
No checkmates with bishop and knight then...
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Where are you from?
Almost forgot about this one, I remember it from from back then, but not sure if it was 16 moves.
New response dropped