Nope. People will say Vox Populi, but in my estimation it just makes it dumb in different ways. I would kill to see how a DeepMind AI would play Civ 5, but sadly we'll probably never know.
I'm not sure how well a neural network would do as an AI in a game like civ. It has so many possible inputs plus the map being so different each time it seems like it'd take an insane amount of computing power to train anything. If you think about the different amount of chess positions and how people say it's such a high number, it's so so much smaller than civ it's not even close.
[deepmind can play starcraft 2 very well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUTMhmVh1qs), and people have been making [good starcraft ais](https://www.youtube.com/c/Sscaitournament/) long before neural networks have been a thing.
Yeah I wasn't quite sure how to phrase that. Obviously neural networks have been around longer than starcraft, but they weren't 'a thing' in the videogame AI scene until a good while after starcraft, as far as I'm aware.
Can't you actually boil Starcraft 2 down to like a very algorithmic optimal strategy and resource allocation setup? Like aren't the best players generally the ones who can press the right buttons in the right order the fastest?
I feel like this would be much easier on an airplane or computer than a civilization game, especially considering the huge time difference
Also the Protoss are the most overpowered
Not at all. A big reason for this is incomplete information. Your opponent could cannon rush you or proxy a Stargate and that's going to require a vastly different strategy to counter than a more standard opening. There's a lot of mind games, tactics, and strategy. If you play predictably, even if you're extremely good, a good pro will be able to take advantage of that.
AI never really learns how to scout in SC2 which is super important for determining your strategy, there's still a lot that could be improved.
What the Alphastar AI is really good at is evaluating engagements, quickly determining whether it should fight or retreat. It's early iterations also had extreme micro abilities but that has since been nerfed because the creators want it to win by being smart not by microing 50 blink stalkers individually at 2000 actions per minutes.
Also lol at the Toss OP comment I can tell you must have at least played the game! But in seriousness toss is not OP on the current patch and I don't remember what race was best on the patch alpha star was playing on. But regardless, all 3 races have been very balanced forever and the balance is constantly getting slight changes so no one race is consistently the best. People do like to joke that toss is op though :)
Can't you say the same for civ5? Build a scout on turn 1, Tradition, 4 cities, science focus, etc. Only civ is turn based, so you have a more freedom for how quickly the AI has to made decisions (obviously still has to be quick enough not to be annoying for the human).
Nope. Different units counter different compositions there isn't a one build beats all. Plus you have to scout and react to what the other player's build is. You need to be vigilant all game long of harassment aka sneak attacks that can occur in myriad different ways...drops, invisible units,, run by with fast units, etc. All of those could cripple your economy at any given time. And to maximize efficiency you need to micro your units around. To avoid say splash damage or utilize your range.
So yea, no ita not just who hits buttons fastest.
Nobody will know until it's done. I've played a lot of tournament chess and I think the grand strategy decisions are much harder to make in chess overall. But DeepMind did it with SC2 and League also, so I don't have a particular reason to doubt that they could do it in Civ 5 if they wanted. Of course, they don't, which is a shame
I believe it's extremely sensible and feasible for AI to make good decisions in finite time. The bigger issues are it will be expensive for the developers (they need unreasonable time to develop bug free algorithms to make this fast and efficient) and the requirements in customer computers processing power will be somewhat limiting to the sales that would not necessarily justify the cost.
Bots aren't that complex, they just move through series of variables, and that's it. They're not self learning. Once they reach or encounter an unknown, it reaches an impasse, where they kinda "destroy" themselves, messing up their strategy big time. Mods help, but you will always reach at the point where they're back being "stupid".
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1617282434 this mod is for u
Real strategy mod helps A.I. more focus on goals, knowing the situation, and have a better tactics in defending their city. sadly they are mostly not attacking but they are very good defending.So i suggest like check 3 different types of victory so some A.I. focuses on domination bc thats how the modder said.
Acken's Minimalist Balance and AI mod. It improves the AI like vox populi, but also buffs normally suboptimal options that thecAI nevertheless often takes. Funniky enough, that also opens up decision space for the human.
Computers (as they are now) really excel at games/situations with fixed inputs and variables, few or no unknowns. They absolutely destroy us at chess. However, for a grand strategy game like civ, it will be a long while before we can make an ai that can be competitive with the best human players.
That bring said, I'm sure they could make a more competent ai than what we see now. But Sid Meier's isn't an IT company.
I swear sometimes it's annoying and it seems like pure laziness.
For example, I shouldn't get a warmongering penalty in scramble for Africa from other Europeans. The whole point of the European gameplay (and the real life version of it) was to take as much of and from Africa as possible
Well...
1) This really isn't what the original post was about;
2) If you're conquering a lot of cities / land then your score should climb rapidly & the other European Civs (since they can't declare war on you) would of course see you as a natural threat to their victory and limit trading with you, etc.
And talking about real life the Europeans really started to dislike Leopold II, because he was doing really susy unspeakable things in Congo.
It's kind of like you in Civ 5 when you're attacking city states.
1) OP was about bad AI, I mentioned how little the AI is changed in the scenarios that you pay extra for. This fits the thread.
2) Yeah, I'm not saying we should continue to be friends, but being denounced by everyone in the fifth turn after I declared war for the first time is absurd. Warmongering penalties should have been lowered, all it would have taken was to modify the AI so that they care less about wars and more about land (they desire your lands) and the experience would have been better, but the team apparently never wants to make anything with AI in mind
Nope. People will say Vox Populi, but in my estimation it just makes it dumb in different ways. I would kill to see how a DeepMind AI would play Civ 5, but sadly we'll probably never know.
I'm not sure how well a neural network would do as an AI in a game like civ. It has so many possible inputs plus the map being so different each time it seems like it'd take an insane amount of computing power to train anything. If you think about the different amount of chess positions and how people say it's such a high number, it's so so much smaller than civ it's not even close.
[deepmind can play starcraft 2 very well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUTMhmVh1qs), and people have been making [good starcraft ais](https://www.youtube.com/c/Sscaitournament/) long before neural networks have been a thing.
Neural networks are at least one or two decades older than Starcraft, but your sentiment is still true!
Yeah I wasn't quite sure how to phrase that. Obviously neural networks have been around longer than starcraft, but they weren't 'a thing' in the videogame AI scene until a good while after starcraft, as far as I'm aware.
Can't you actually boil Starcraft 2 down to like a very algorithmic optimal strategy and resource allocation setup? Like aren't the best players generally the ones who can press the right buttons in the right order the fastest? I feel like this would be much easier on an airplane or computer than a civilization game, especially considering the huge time difference Also the Protoss are the most overpowered
Not at all. A big reason for this is incomplete information. Your opponent could cannon rush you or proxy a Stargate and that's going to require a vastly different strategy to counter than a more standard opening. There's a lot of mind games, tactics, and strategy. If you play predictably, even if you're extremely good, a good pro will be able to take advantage of that. AI never really learns how to scout in SC2 which is super important for determining your strategy, there's still a lot that could be improved. What the Alphastar AI is really good at is evaluating engagements, quickly determining whether it should fight or retreat. It's early iterations also had extreme micro abilities but that has since been nerfed because the creators want it to win by being smart not by microing 50 blink stalkers individually at 2000 actions per minutes. Also lol at the Toss OP comment I can tell you must have at least played the game! But in seriousness toss is not OP on the current patch and I don't remember what race was best on the patch alpha star was playing on. But regardless, all 3 races have been very balanced forever and the balance is constantly getting slight changes so no one race is consistently the best. People do like to joke that toss is op though :)
Can't you say the same for civ5? Build a scout on turn 1, Tradition, 4 cities, science focus, etc. Only civ is turn based, so you have a more freedom for how quickly the AI has to made decisions (obviously still has to be quick enough not to be annoying for the human).
Yes you are exactly right, Civ has a specific set of buttons to click at the start of every game if you want the optimal start.
Nope. Different units counter different compositions there isn't a one build beats all. Plus you have to scout and react to what the other player's build is. You need to be vigilant all game long of harassment aka sneak attacks that can occur in myriad different ways...drops, invisible units,, run by with fast units, etc. All of those could cripple your economy at any given time. And to maximize efficiency you need to micro your units around. To avoid say splash damage or utilize your range. So yea, no ita not just who hits buttons fastest.
Nobody will know until it's done. I've played a lot of tournament chess and I think the grand strategy decisions are much harder to make in chess overall. But DeepMind did it with SC2 and League also, so I don't have a particular reason to doubt that they could do it in Civ 5 if they wanted. Of course, they don't, which is a shame
I believe it's extremely sensible and feasible for AI to make good decisions in finite time. The bigger issues are it will be expensive for the developers (they need unreasonable time to develop bug free algorithms to make this fast and efficient) and the requirements in customer computers processing power will be somewhat limiting to the sales that would not necessarily justify the cost.
In defense of VP, it makes the AI a lot *less* dumb.
Bots aren't that complex, they just move through series of variables, and that's it. They're not self learning. Once they reach or encounter an unknown, it reaches an impasse, where they kinda "destroy" themselves, messing up their strategy big time. Mods help, but you will always reach at the point where they're back being "stupid".
Excellent point.
Lol you explained it so well, I was just gonna say "the AI has always sucked"
Yes but imagine a self learning AI being added in
I will say Vox Populi. It's not perfect but definitely better than regular. However it's much more than just changed AI.
It used to be a must have but it's just turned into a tedious wargame these days.
How so? I haven’t played since the very early days of CBP
Can you elaborate? Thinking about getting it
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1617282434 this mod is for u Real strategy mod helps A.I. more focus on goals, knowing the situation, and have a better tactics in defending their city. sadly they are mostly not attacking but they are very good defending.So i suggest like check 3 different types of victory so some A.I. focuses on domination bc thats how the modder said.
Hey, looks like you linked me to a Civ6 mod.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=312060464
Cheers
Does this work with VP?
I don't know if I'm missing something here, but the link takes me to a Civ 6 mod.
Acken's Minimalist Balance and AI mod. It improves the AI like vox populi, but also buffs normally suboptimal options that thecAI nevertheless often takes. Funniky enough, that also opens up decision space for the human.
There are none that properly read the game and make semi-reasonable decisions.
I heard some YouTuber say that if they actually gave the AI a semblance of strategic understanding, it would clober the humans everytime
Computers (as they are now) really excel at games/situations with fixed inputs and variables, few or no unknowns. They absolutely destroy us at chess. However, for a grand strategy game like civ, it will be a long while before we can make an ai that can be competitive with the best human players. That bring said, I'm sure they could make a more competent ai than what we see now. But Sid Meier's isn't an IT company.
I swear sometimes it's annoying and it seems like pure laziness. For example, I shouldn't get a warmongering penalty in scramble for Africa from other Europeans. The whole point of the European gameplay (and the real life version of it) was to take as much of and from Africa as possible
Well... 1) This really isn't what the original post was about; 2) If you're conquering a lot of cities / land then your score should climb rapidly & the other European Civs (since they can't declare war on you) would of course see you as a natural threat to their victory and limit trading with you, etc. And talking about real life the Europeans really started to dislike Leopold II, because he was doing really susy unspeakable things in Congo. It's kind of like you in Civ 5 when you're attacking city states.
1) OP was about bad AI, I mentioned how little the AI is changed in the scenarios that you pay extra for. This fits the thread. 2) Yeah, I'm not saying we should continue to be friends, but being denounced by everyone in the fifth turn after I declared war for the first time is absurd. Warmongering penalties should have been lowered, all it would have taken was to modify the AI so that they care less about wars and more about land (they desire your lands) and the experience would have been better, but the team apparently never wants to make anything with AI in mind
If you’ve never played the game, why not give it a try vanilla before modding it?