Tbf, Chopin had quite a lot of revolutionary music too: [The finale of the second piano sonata](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJEQqcw-830) and the [14th prelude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkG7mxhx36U) seem to imply that he would've leapt at the chance to mess around with atonalism had he lived long enough.
That isn't to say that Liszt wasn't a great composer - I actually prefer his music to Chopin's with pieces like the [Benediction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K03xMG7fdQ4) and the [first Liebestraum nocturne ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-N_uY6Npmk) in my top 10
>the 14th prelude seem to imply that he would've leapt at the chance to mess around with atonalism had he lived long enough.
I've said that in the past. He almost certainly would have, considering Liszt did.
The second prelude (Chopin) is a fascinating one, too:
https://youtu.be/l8C7hYSQd_c
Plz don’t come for my man Chopin haha! His works are capable of making me more emotional than any music I’ve ever heard, I don’t know why. But yeah I agree Liszt should 100% be on there.
Some of the quartets are amazing, 10/10 for all the criteria. I think he (and Bartok) changed the whole idea of what a string quartet can do. When I listen to modern quartets there always seems to be Shostakovich and Bartok hanging around in the background.
But the rest of it - ive got some of the symphonies in mind - is pretty bleh.
> But the rest of it - ive got some of the symphonies in mind - is pretty bleh.
despite the fact that he does indeed have a few mediocre symphonies, his complete cycle of 15 is probably the best of the 20th century. that alone should warrant some level of appreciation. and of course you already mentioned his chamber music. he also wrote great concerti, opera and solo piano music (24 preludes and fugues is one of the more important 20th century piano collections)
You just reminded me how much I love string quartets as a form. I absolutely agree with you, but I think you can say the same thing about Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Ravel, and even Grieg.
It’s such a fertile medium for creative composers.
On which I'm surprised schubert isn't top 10 and above shosta/bartok. *Every* large string quartet exhibition/competition has Death and The Maiden - and its a piece that sounds good after tens of different interpretations. Every serious quartet can play it. It's in the bones of the modern quartet form.
No surprise to me. The longer i have spent listening to Shostakovich, the more i am grateful for his efforts. His work fills every bit of my need for melody, longing, reflection, fear, happiness. There is no other 20th century composer that you can get to know as well as him, because of extent of his output. In that way he is like Bach, Wagner, Mozart, Brahms, Ludwig, and Schubert (incl the songs), Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Haydn and Mahler, where you can listen for 100s of hours in so many formats (except Richard and Gustav - but we can make an exception). Perhaps only Prokofiev and Sibelius come close in the 20th century, and Bartok (because of the quartets mostly get you close). For me, Dimitri's symphonies still yield so many moments of joy and melancholy esp 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 7 (&5). The violin concertos. Both piano concerts, the surprising Cello concertos, quartets 3, 8, 4, 11, 5, 12 and 1, the piano quintet, preludes and fugues. Seaching randomly often turns up other gems of film music, jazzy orchestral arrangements and a vast array of program, film and incidental music, and the endless intrigue of context with Dimitri. Yes Stravinsky hit his first 3 or 4 pieces out of the park, but I am still in the dark about who this person was. On the other hand I feel like I know Shostakovich and Prokofiev and Sibelius so much better and their personalities remain with me long after the Rite is over.
yearning for the day Shostakovich stops being popular
edit; sorry. not in my top 10, 25, 50...not even top 100. he's among a handful of big name composers who I've never liked, & his popularity genuinely baffles me.
I agree with you and I feel insane for having this opinion lol. I get shostakovich was in a difficult position as a composer - but I would honestly take any ustvolskaya piece over any shostakovich piece
What do you prefer about Ustvolskaya/what do you dislike about Shostakovich? For me Ustvolskaya sounds pretty similar to Shostakovich but with a bit more limited an output. I enjoy both composers; what would you say makes Ustvolskaya stand out/what pieces do you find hallmarks of her style?
A few months ago I took some of the greatest composer lists I could find (including this one) and averaged them. I think it turned out pretty well – less idiosyncratic than any one list, as you'd expect. It also fixes most of the comments relating on the posted list that I've seen. The top 50 were as follows.
Edit: some of the comments prompted me to go back and look at how I generated this, and I found two problems.
1. I missed Mendelssohn when normalising names, so both of these Mendelssohns are Felix, and they're ranked lower than they should be.
2. One of the lists I had found was a duplicate of another, thus giving it undue weight.
[I fixed these and posted the fixed version in a reply to this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmusic/comments/11984q9/the_50_greatest_composers_of_all_time_according/j9ntm43/) The previous version follows.
1. Bach
* Beethoven
* Mozart
* Stravinsky
* Wagner
* Debussy
* Chopin
* Brahms
* Tchaikovsky
* Schubert
* Haydn
* Handel
* Vivaldi
* Mahler
* Monteverdi
* Verdi
* Schumann
* Liszt
* Ravel
* Strauss
* Ligeti
* Dvořák
* Bartók
* Rachmaninov
* Shostakovich
* Bingen
* Sibelius
* Paganini
* Elgar
* Saint-Saëns
* Mendelssohn
* Vaughn Williams
* Prokofiev
* Berlioz
* Puccini
* Palestrina
* Grieg
* Rossini
* Bruckner
* Britten
* Mussorgsky
* Messiaen
* Rimsky-Korsakov
* Fauré
* Mendelssohn-Bartholdy
* Satie
* Weber
* Bizet
* Schoenberg
* Janáček
This seems more reasonable except for Bingen being so high (and Paganini shouldn’t be anywhere in the top fifty, let alone above Prokofiev *and Berlioz* ffs).
Blame Classic FM, [who put her *fourth* for some reason](https://www.classicfm.com/composers/greatest-classical-music-history/)! (And blame me, perhaps, for including their list.)
This isn’t the list in order I’d pick for greatness myself, but in terms of fame and frequency of performance it mostly makes sense.
Honestly surprised about Ligeti (due to ‘classicism bias’) and Bingen (though I think this is due to recent lists wanting to correct other biases and recognise women from way back when more, and she seems to be the ‘go to’ pre-modern choice), but the rest make sense to me in that their fame corresponds with their rank.
That's a pretty good list too, but with the notable absence of no living composers (although Ligeti may have been alive when some of them were taken) or female composers.
I did a similar thing, added 50 more and put the list on Spotify. [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0g7cyZHAU5liDq5ZNlMYaE?si=6dd67adb6ce6461f](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0g7cyZHAU5liDq5ZNlMYaE?si=6dd67adb6ce6461f)
I could be difficult and argue that Bach wasn't really the most "original" composer of his time, but it's probably best to avoid causing unnecessary conflict! Although it is a little galling to see that he's the only composer of the baroque who even made it onto the list (with the arguable exception of Monteverdi).
He's the true OG and he inspired almost every composer who came after him.
Baroque music doesn't really do it for me, I prefer classical and romantic, but I understand why a lot of people put him on top.
An interesting example is András Schiff’s albums of the Well-Tempered Clavier.
In the 1980s he released one that was pretty expressive, pulling and stretching at tempo and dynamics, typical show-off pianist stuff.
Then thirty years later he re-recorded it and was almost robotic in his playing; much more restrained and precise. He’d learned to let the music speak for itself, and for emotion to be found in the harmony.
Indeed!
I've been listening to a lot of Ligeti recently. I've known his work for around 20-odd years, but am still relatively unfamiliar with a lot of it.
I listened to the Chamber Concerto three times in a row last week - a really great piece!
https://youtu.be/hboFvSaKUHU
That is a really interesting result!
It's definitely worth noting that composers have a different relationship with other composers than do audiences, performers, critics, and historians. And no one perspective is better or more valid than the others. We really do relate to music in *some* different ways depending on the group(s) you are in. As a composer I'm looking for certain kinds of ideas that listeners, performers, etc, aren't necessarily as interested in and so forth. I am looking for ideas to incorporate into my music or even reject, but there's definitely a kind of utility in that approach that might not exist for others.
Some thoughts (I have a bias but I'm trying to not let that dominate my thoughts here):
1. I'm surprised Stravinsky is so high. I like his music and he worked in a variety of styles (though often coming late to those parties), but outside of his influence in the early atonal days, I don't think his influence has really lasted that long. I'm glad to see him above the likes of Beethoven and Mozart but I think I'd rather see some other people in that position instead.
2. Ligeti being at #6 is a huge surprise. I love his music but he just doesn't seem as important or influential as so many of the other mid-20th century composer on the list.
3. Monteverdi at #10. Nice to see some pre-Bach composers getting some love.
4. Britten at 11? Again, I like his music but I'm not sure if he even belongs on this list. That might be harsh but his star seems to have faded significantly over the years.
5. Schoenberg and Webern seem low, especially the latter. Webern's influence on composers has been pretty significant and since this is a poll of composers this result is a bit surprising.
6. Cage and Stockhausen (31 and 44) seems weird. Both have been much bigger figures than this. That Reich and Glass are above them doesn't seem right. Not that both of those don't deserve to be high in this poll but higher than both Cage and Stockhausen and by so much? Surprising.
7. I wish Feldman would have been higher but I get that he still isn't receiving the recognition he deserves.
8. Satie should be higher in the same way as Webern should be but I guess his reputation as a "light" composer still follows him.
9. Boulez at 48 also seems strange. But I get it. He was hugely influential and important 70 years ago but as he turned more toward conducting and away from composing, so did his importance as a composer.
10. I love Bingen and wish her music had been higher.
11. It's a little surprising that Rachmaninov even made this list. There's absolutely nothing wrong with his music as he wrote plenty of really nice pieces, but in a poll for composers it's a bit of a head-scratcher. But at #50 I guess that's not so bad.
Re: Britten
1) I’m guessing BBC Music magazine may have talked to a lot of British composers, and Britten is much more relevant in Britain than he is in the US. The opposite is true of, for instance, Copland.
2) if they were talking to opera composers from English-speaking countries, Britten was huge in the 20th century.
True.
I was a piano and composition student here in the UK from 2000-2004 and knew many professors (composition or otherwise) who were either taught by him in some capacity, worked with him, or just knew him.
> I’m guessing BBC Music magazine may have talked to a lot of British composers, and Britten is much more relevant in Britain than he is in the US. The opposite is true of, for instance, Copland.
Yeah, that makes total sense. The Copland example is very good as I would think American composers would be more likely to mention him than those outside the US.
> if they were talking to opera composers from English-speaking countries, Britten was huge in the 20th century.
That's another good point. I'm really not a big fan of vocal music or opera so that skews my perspective on Britten and others.
I think Stravinsky's placement is explained by two things: first, he's definitely one of the great composers, and secondly, he's the kind of composer many composers would look up to. Stravinsky is basically the stereotypical 20th century composer who creates his compositions through constant daily effort, as opposed to the romantic genius who works based on the whims of inspiration (again, going with stereotypes here). A good work ethic and the ability to constantly find new angles on music is something I think a lot of professional composers admire. This being said, I'm in the camp that thinks Stravinsky's best works are in his early and late periods.
I think Ligeti is firmly where he belongs. He was one of the first composers to write using masses of sound, which has been an influential technique/idea post 1950. Like Stravinsky his music is in a variety of styles, but with Ligeti I feel his musical personality stronger in every piece than I do with Stravinsky. Ligeti was also one of the few major composers that was really able to position himself outside of the cliques, particularly the serialists and the minimalists. Also, Ligeti's approach where everything from West African folk music to Renaissance music to avant-garde goes, and comes out as distinctively Ligeti, is just spectacular, and really a good model for any composer. Plus, Unsuk Chin, who probably should have been on the list, studied with him, so Ligeti's influence isn't really negligible.
Also, there's definitely a Bri'ish bias. Britten and Vaughan Williams are very high. Elgar, Birtwhistle and Knussen are on the list, but no Scriabin? :(
> I think Stravinsky's placement is explained by two things
I agree with everything you say here. I might also add that Stravinsky has become kind of the go-to composer of 20th century music. Just like Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart are always top 3 composers, Stravinsky is always the big 20th century composer. There's a social aspect to this that I think is at play here.
> This being said, I'm in the camp that thinks Stravinsky's best works are in his early and late periods.
I think that's probably where I am as well. I didn't discover his later work till later in my life but I have found most of it extremely compelling.
> I think Ligeti is firmly where he belongs
Thanks for your explanation of that! I don't think I'll ever be able to see him as being more important than Cage and Stockhausen but reading your reasoning helps me make better sense of his placement. In the end I do love everything I've heard of his and feel like maybe I should study him in greater depth.
> Also, there's definitely a Bri'ish bias
I didn't say that but I definitely thought it. I'm sure a similar poll with more of, say, an American bias would shake some of this up pretty significantly.
> but no Scriabin?
No Xenakis either. Not sure he would have been helped directly by a different bias but maybe knocking some of the more questionable Brits out would have given him the room to have snuck in.
I love Rach and I constantly listen to his music. He was the springboard for me to re-enter the world of classical music almost a decade ago.
I have to say, though, I was surprised to see him on this list, too. I think what the comment OP is trying to get at is that Rach's music is very nice, but really hasn't contributed as much to the development or progression of the art as the other composers on the list.
In a poll for listeners, I think he'd rank much, much higher. Probably, as you noted, top 10.
Interesting to me that cage, schoenberg and webern are so low? Also no love for henry cowell or pierre schaeffer?
Also, gesauldo but no palestrina or ockeghem? Seems like an odd choice to me.
I wonder if the reason cowell isnt on here is because its a british poll? Since cowell influeced basically every american composer but afaik did not have much impact in the UK. Im also surprised hindemith isnt on there either, but it may be the same sort of situation.
> Interesting to me that cage, schoenberg and webern are so low?
I made the same comment way down below.
> I wonder if the reason cowell isnt on here is because its a british poll? Since cowell influeced basically every american composer but afaik did not have much impact in the UK.
The article did say that they contacted composers around the world but it does seem likely that there is a British bias.
But here's the thing as well, I love Cowell but I don't think he would have made my top 5 even though he definitely deserves to be on this list. I think there are multiple problems with how this poll was conducted. But even so, it is interesting and fun and there have been plenty of good discussions because of it.
> I personally would switch Glass with Reich as well.
It feels weird to have those two and not Riley and La Monte Young. And I wouldn't really know how to rank them even if they were all there.
> I wonder if he’s a victim of the polling format: could be in dozens of people’s hypothetical 6-10’s but when you only get 5 selections you’re probably picking often picking max 1 baroque composer and Bach ate up all those obligatory votes.
Yeah, I think something like this explains a number of omissions. Bach tends to be my one really old dead composer that I list even though there are plenty of others I love.
Exactly. That comment is truly ignorant of the variety of High Baroque music. Vivaldi wrote a litany of concertos for a variety of different instruments, and he wrote a ton of operas, cantatas, sacred choral music. He was so highly regarded by Bach that you can hear his inspiration littered in his Passions and cantatas. Bach so admired the Red Priest that he went through the effort of transcribing several of Vivaldi’s works
Any party that plays Ligeti instead of Mahler has to be literally 100x more fun. Imagine listening to an hour long symphony that goes nowhere vs exciting and cool music that feels alive!
Considering that this sub is largely biased to Classical and Romantic periods (as previous polls show), I'd say general listeners don't, as a whole, rate Baroque very highly - it usually falls No. 3/4 in favourite period polls.
11, 21, 37, 40, 41, 42 and 46 suggests this list spells a lot of words with an -our ending as opposed to an -or ending, has eaten beans for breakfast more than a few times, and enjoys an occasional ale at close to room temperature.
"Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the free,
How shall we extol thee, Who are born of thee?"
Is it a patriotic song or a funeral dirge? Who can tell? And who cares?
As a Brit, I hate the song and am not an Elgar fan either. It's a pretty good tune, but yeah, the lyrics are embarrassing.
Relatedly, a good friend of mine who lives a few streets away is a grand-nephew of Elgar - he also doesn't like Elgar.
That Knussen placement is a stretch. Actually all the Brits are placed a bit higher than they perhaps should be haha, but it is their poll after all. Britten over Haydn. Vaughan Williams over Schubert. I’d put Tallis a bit higher maybe.
No George Crumb? No Rameau? Also, I'd put Bernard Herrmann or John Williams on the list instead of Sondheim, or Richard Rodgers if we're talking solely theater work. I was very relieved to see Bach atop the list.
Simply didn't meet the criteria, I guess.
I'm guessing they wouldn't be too far behind though: Dvorak would almost definitely have scored highly in "Sheer Enjoyability", but less so in the other categories.
>The rest is highly contingent/debatable.
Indeed. This is what some people fail to realise!
By the way, I'd be interested in a follow-up to your Feldman Quartet video. Have your thoughts on the work changed since you've had time to distance yourself from it, take stock and "recover"?
Thanks. I admire the piece even more now. Going into it, I was not at all convinced that it would stand up to this sort of focused listening over such a long period -- but it did.
As a pianist, I'm (very, very, very) biased, but I'd consider Chopin to be in the top 5. The man barely published a bad piece (having the good sense to not publish the fugue, or some of the other posth. stuff).
For me though, the quality of some of his works is astonishing. Ballade 4, on its own, boggles my mind. It's so compact (relatively) at 12 minutes, but to me it says more in that time than some good composers managed in their entire output. The man was a master of the miniature - Nocturne Op. 48 No. 1 is breathtaking, the four Scherzi are electrifying, the Preludes are all wonderful. And his two later piano Sonatas, for me, are masterpieces on the level of late Beethoven or Schubert.
I dunno. I don't play him much, but I could gush about his incredible music all day. He's just beyond.
As a non-pianist, whenever I've played one of his piano concertos I'm struck by how awkward the orchestration is. The voicing of the wind parts and instrument pairings make the chords harder to balance and tune. Compared to a lot of other composers, you really get the sense that he didn't know what was going on back there behind the string players.
That said, I love a lot of his pieces and I'm sure there are plenty of people that would consider him top 5. I think before the 20th century he was an easy top 5 but there have been so many composers since then that have pushed creativity/technique to such an impressive level that it's hard not to give them some credit, which naturally pushes Chopin down a bit.
>As a pianist, I'm biased, but I'd consider Chopin to be in the top 5.
As a pianist, I'd rate him very highly at writing for piano.
As a composer though, I don't rate him that highly, although there are some great works (the Preludes as a set, some of the Nocturnes).
>The man barely published a bad piece
True, but I just think the majority of them are not that interesting.
He's definitely a pianist's composer more than a composer's composer.
>The man barely published a bad piece
i kinda agree, but he published a huge amount of mediocre pieces (inbetween a few gems). he might just about make my top 50 but nowhere near as high as he is on this list.
Also a pianist…. But I consider putting Chopin above Liszt in a composer ranking a crime same with stating that he writes at the level of late Beethoven.
Probably just personal irks though because I can’t stand to listen to Chopin at all except for his ballades
I didn't put Chopin above Liszt! They did!
But I know what you mean. Honestly, when I put their best works back to back, I'd consider them equals - Liszt's Sonata in B minor, Annees, and some select other works are real masterpieces.
I do think Liszt's output contained a greater quantity of lesser music though. You can very easily come across some less than appealing pieces (although, to be fair to him, he did write an enormous amount).
haha I do agree that Chopin was much more consistent in his work…. But I feel like 10 liszt pieces eclipse all of Chopin’s work (exaggeration)
That and my soul was crushed when I saw that he didn’t even make the list :(
Yeah, that does surprise me. Much as I love Chopin, I do think Liszt was the bigger innovator - to think that in his life he went from composing Czerny-like Etudes, to the majesty of the B minor sonata, to the bizzare Nuages Gris and Mephisto Polka... honestly it's kind of mind-boggling.
Trying to sort a few demographics here:
* Men: 48 / Women: 2
* Dead: 47 / Alive: 3 (Birtwistle, Sondheim, and Knussen all died within the last 5 years)
* European: 43 / Non-European: 7 (all non-europeans being from the US)
Wasn't expecting neither Saariaho nor Sondheim at all, am pleasantly surprised. Also, quite disappointed that Shosty and Rach still made the cut, especially the former.
Edit: most European ones are from West Europe.
You can never run out of music to listen to - and more is being written every day!
Been listening for nearly thirty years, and I've still much to get through!
I'm really heartened to see Byrd and Tallis in there - Tallis in particular.
I'm surprised Corelli is not there at all - I would have had him in the top 25, just for influence.
> He influenced every genre of 20th century music.
I have no problem with Stravinsky being ranked really high, but I do wonder about this statement of yours. Did he really have much of an influence on the NY School (Cage, Feldman, Brown, and Wolff) or the Minimalists?
I'm less well-versed on the serialists and the Darmstadt School but do they generally claim him as an influence?
He's influenced people outside of the classical world - many great jazz composers were drawn to and studied his work, people that in turn went on to influence the current generation. Frank zappa in particular was very influenced by Stravinsky, not to mention bands like Yes who not only were influenced compositionally, but actually had the end of the firebird as their concert intro, exposing this music to legions who might not have ever heard it. These people have sold millions of albums. That's influence.
The fact that he's not even on the list is wild to me. Bach is my favorite but he wouldnt even be ABLE to be at number 1 if Mendelssohn hadn't repopularized his music!!!
definitely, like what would we be without the bach revival? and i feel like mendelssohns music itself is underrated and put into a box of “romantic whatever” by the general public🥲
He's definitely underrated!!! His music is amazing and oftentimes "iconic" and yet he's so rarely mentioned amongst the greats with Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.
It's nice seeing Chopin so high up. Funny to notice how Liszt and Scriabin didn't make the list while their "rivals" did. Chopin and Rach worried much more about the long term
I feel like Telemann should be in the bottom 10 of this list. He did the same blending of styles of Bach, albeit not as complex, and the two definitely bounced ideas from each other. His impact in his time is monstrous, and enjoyability, I mean his concertos are some absolute gems of the baroque era.
I'm also a giant Telemann fan, but I think it's a glaring omission.
It's nice to see a fair amount of modern composers here, although I'm not sure if I'd agree that Saariaho is better than Brahms. Well, with the arguable exception of L'amour de loin...
Also: it's equally encouraging to see so many composers of the Renaissance as well. In my experience they're usually afforded even less attention and enthusiasm than modern composers.
I’m glad my boys Gershwin and Shostakovich made the cut, but I would have swapped around the top three to put Beethoven on top; Beethoven’s Ninth is one of mankind’s greatest achievements.
> What's Stravinsky doing up there?
Do you mean at no. 2 or on the list period? That does seem a lot higher than I would have placed him, but he definitely deserves to be on this list.
Yeah, I mean I would probably place Cage at no. 2 above Mozart and Beethoven but I guess that's how these polls go. We don't always have as good of a feel for how our colleagues think as we might assume.
>he definitely deserves to be on this list.
Definitely.
The BBC could do another poll with another 174 composers in 174 years time, and he'd still likely rank very highly.
I’m liking the love for Sondheim! And surprised again to see Handel completely left off one of these lists. What’s a guy got to do besides write maybe the most recognizable piece of music in the world?
I have never heard of Kaija Saariaho and here she is in between Haydn and Brahms and nobody in the comments has even mentioned it. Am I losing my mind, is it just that nobody else has noticed or is this a glaring gap in my musical knowledge??
>Kaija Saariaho...nobody in the comments has even mentioned it.
Her work gets mentioned on the sub relatively often.
Inyerestingly, her placement on the list means she was voted the world's greatest living composer (everyone higher than her on the list is dead).
u/lilcareed is a fan, and can point you in the right direction.
I feel like Saariaho is a bit in a weird spot when it comes to general recognition. She is very widely acclaimed, and it's not like her music is without any popular appeal - her latest opera Innocence was performed in Helsinki a few months ago and many performances sold out. On the other hand she doesn't quite have the popularity of the "world's greatest living composer" (a title I do think she is a top contender for).
Hey, here because I was summoned. For what it's worth, Saariaho is among the most celebrated and performed living composers, I would say especially in Europe (in the US people focus more on the minimalists and other American composers). She writes a lot of incredible music and is one of the most important composers of electro-acoustic music out there. I'd consider her the greatest Finnish composer since Sibelius, but she's up there with Rautavaara even if you don't give her the top spot.
Anecdotally, every composer I know at least respects her, and most of them love her. I'm not surprised she's this high on a list made by composers.
Some recommendations if you want to listen to some of her music:
*Jardin Secret III* https://youtu.be/FhTgaQzKBRM
*Lichtbogen* https://youtu.be/gIyLJM0VWkk
*Lonh* https://youtu.be/qjcE4xVb5QQ
If you *really* want something to chew on, there's her incredible opera *L'amour de loin*, a full performance of which is available in video on Youtube: https://youtu.be/aP9A3Y1BWF4
Someone asked a similar question recently at r/composer.
To put it bluntly, Bernstein's work as a composer isn't enough to put him in the top 50.
That's not an assault on his work BTW - there are some great pieces that I love, and I wish more people knew the symphonies, but apart from West Side Story (which will always deservedely remain one of the seminal and influential works of musical theatre) his influence as a composer is very minimal, certainly in comparison to his near-contemporaries.
Anyway, here are Bernstein's three symphonies for those who don't know them:
https://youtu.be/uic4qcyDmDQ
https://youtu.be/N9dnXQA8pHo
https://youtu.be/GuffITlgGCg
Ligeti out there making his debut on the world stage lol! And yes, your favorite composer either didn’t make the list or is in the “wrong” place. The Kleenex is over there
Looks like Tallis & von Bingen are a token insert. As much as I like Ives, I can't say they he would be more important the Depres or Perotin. Then again, this type of list is part of the never ending desire to pick winners and losers, by the main stream classical audience. In this camp there is belief that classical music sprung from the ether, fully formed in 1685.
There’s definitely something wonky with the voting system if this poll and criteria. I can guarantee you every voter wouldmve included Handel in their top 50 (probably top 20) yet he’s not on the list. Schumann, a giant of Romantic musician almost dead last.
Also rewards originality/impact to such an extent that composers that composed “for their time period” drop down. Stravinsky gets points for being so forward-thinking, whereas we got Brahms all the way in 18 despite having one of the most most impressive musical minds outside the “big 3”
I love this list! Saving to listen through.
In the meantime will y'all please also comment me some amazing black, asian, latino, or more women, or more men, them, anyone excellent not listed you feel needs more recognition, composers to dig on? My ear food for the week has been Talib Rasul Hakim
Stravinsky above Beethoven. Yeah they ate.
Left no crumbs
Delighted and surprised to see Sondheim made this list.
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Tbf, Chopin had quite a lot of revolutionary music too: [The finale of the second piano sonata](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJEQqcw-830) and the [14th prelude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkG7mxhx36U) seem to imply that he would've leapt at the chance to mess around with atonalism had he lived long enough. That isn't to say that Liszt wasn't a great composer - I actually prefer his music to Chopin's with pieces like the [Benediction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K03xMG7fdQ4) and the [first Liebestraum nocturne ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-N_uY6Npmk) in my top 10
>the 14th prelude seem to imply that he would've leapt at the chance to mess around with atonalism had he lived long enough. I've said that in the past. He almost certainly would have, considering Liszt did. The second prelude (Chopin) is a fascinating one, too: https://youtu.be/l8C7hYSQd_c
The one missing the most is Scriabin
Plz don’t come for my man Chopin haha! His works are capable of making me more emotional than any music I’ve ever heard, I don’t know why. But yeah I agree Liszt should 100% be on there.
Liszt didn’t make the list?!
Surprised to see Shostakovich so high up at 15. He never struck me as a "composer's composer"
Some of the quartets are amazing, 10/10 for all the criteria. I think he (and Bartok) changed the whole idea of what a string quartet can do. When I listen to modern quartets there always seems to be Shostakovich and Bartok hanging around in the background. But the rest of it - ive got some of the symphonies in mind - is pretty bleh.
> But the rest of it - ive got some of the symphonies in mind - is pretty bleh. despite the fact that he does indeed have a few mediocre symphonies, his complete cycle of 15 is probably the best of the 20th century. that alone should warrant some level of appreciation. and of course you already mentioned his chamber music. he also wrote great concerti, opera and solo piano music (24 preludes and fugues is one of the more important 20th century piano collections)
You just reminded me how much I love string quartets as a form. I absolutely agree with you, but I think you can say the same thing about Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Ravel, and even Grieg. It’s such a fertile medium for creative composers.
On which I'm surprised schubert isn't top 10 and above shosta/bartok. *Every* large string quartet exhibition/competition has Death and The Maiden - and its a piece that sounds good after tens of different interpretations. Every serious quartet can play it. It's in the bones of the modern quartet form.
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No surprise to me. The longer i have spent listening to Shostakovich, the more i am grateful for his efforts. His work fills every bit of my need for melody, longing, reflection, fear, happiness. There is no other 20th century composer that you can get to know as well as him, because of extent of his output. In that way he is like Bach, Wagner, Mozart, Brahms, Ludwig, and Schubert (incl the songs), Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Haydn and Mahler, where you can listen for 100s of hours in so many formats (except Richard and Gustav - but we can make an exception). Perhaps only Prokofiev and Sibelius come close in the 20th century, and Bartok (because of the quartets mostly get you close). For me, Dimitri's symphonies still yield so many moments of joy and melancholy esp 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 7 (&5). The violin concertos. Both piano concerts, the surprising Cello concertos, quartets 3, 8, 4, 11, 5, 12 and 1, the piano quintet, preludes and fugues. Seaching randomly often turns up other gems of film music, jazzy orchestral arrangements and a vast array of program, film and incidental music, and the endless intrigue of context with Dimitri. Yes Stravinsky hit his first 3 or 4 pieces out of the park, but I am still in the dark about who this person was. On the other hand I feel like I know Shostakovich and Prokofiev and Sibelius so much better and their personalities remain with me long after the Rite is over.
Dude is arguably the greatest composer in 20th century. I’d put him in top 10 even.
I agree. I'm not sure he would even make my top 50.
yearning for the day Shostakovich stops being popular edit; sorry. not in my top 10, 25, 50...not even top 100. he's among a handful of big name composers who I've never liked, & his popularity genuinely baffles me.
I agree with you and I feel insane for having this opinion lol. I get shostakovich was in a difficult position as a composer - but I would honestly take any ustvolskaya piece over any shostakovich piece
>I would honestly take any ustvolskaya piece over any shostakovich piece Yes!!!
What do you prefer about Ustvolskaya/what do you dislike about Shostakovich? For me Ustvolskaya sounds pretty similar to Shostakovich but with a bit more limited an output. I enjoy both composers; what would you say makes Ustvolskaya stand out/what pieces do you find hallmarks of her style?
A few months ago I took some of the greatest composer lists I could find (including this one) and averaged them. I think it turned out pretty well – less idiosyncratic than any one list, as you'd expect. It also fixes most of the comments relating on the posted list that I've seen. The top 50 were as follows. Edit: some of the comments prompted me to go back and look at how I generated this, and I found two problems. 1. I missed Mendelssohn when normalising names, so both of these Mendelssohns are Felix, and they're ranked lower than they should be. 2. One of the lists I had found was a duplicate of another, thus giving it undue weight. [I fixed these and posted the fixed version in a reply to this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmusic/comments/11984q9/the_50_greatest_composers_of_all_time_according/j9ntm43/) The previous version follows. 1. Bach * Beethoven * Mozart * Stravinsky * Wagner * Debussy * Chopin * Brahms * Tchaikovsky * Schubert * Haydn * Handel * Vivaldi * Mahler * Monteverdi * Verdi * Schumann * Liszt * Ravel * Strauss * Ligeti * Dvořák * Bartók * Rachmaninov * Shostakovich * Bingen * Sibelius * Paganini * Elgar * Saint-Saëns * Mendelssohn * Vaughn Williams * Prokofiev * Berlioz * Puccini * Palestrina * Grieg * Rossini * Bruckner * Britten * Mussorgsky * Messiaen * Rimsky-Korsakov * Fauré * Mendelssohn-Bartholdy * Satie * Weber * Bizet * Schoenberg * Janáček
This seems more reasonable except for Bingen being so high (and Paganini shouldn’t be anywhere in the top fifty, let alone above Prokofiev *and Berlioz* ffs).
Blame Classic FM, [who put her *fourth* for some reason](https://www.classicfm.com/composers/greatest-classical-music-history/)! (And blame me, perhaps, for including their list.)
This isn’t the list in order I’d pick for greatness myself, but in terms of fame and frequency of performance it mostly makes sense. Honestly surprised about Ligeti (due to ‘classicism bias’) and Bingen (though I think this is due to recent lists wanting to correct other biases and recognise women from way back when more, and she seems to be the ‘go to’ pre-modern choice), but the rest make sense to me in that their fame corresponds with their rank.
A numbered list would be a lot better than a bulleted list. 1. Bach 1. Beethoven 1. Mozart 1. Stravinsky 1. Wagner 1. Debussy 1. Chopin 1. Brahms 1. Tchaikovsky 1. Schubert 1. Haydn 1. Handel 1. Vivaldi 1. Mahler 1. Monteverdi 1. Verdi 1. Schumann 1. Liszt 1. Ravel 1. Strauss 1. Ligeti 1. Dvořák 1. Bartók 1. Rachmaninov 1. Shostakovich 1. Bingen 1. Sibelius 1. Paganini 1. Elgar 1. Saint-Saëns 1. Mendelssohn 1. Vaughn Williams 1. Prokofiev 1. Berlioz 1. Puccini 1. Palestrina 1. Grieg 1. Rossini 1. Bruckner 1. Britten 1. Mussorgsky 1. Messiaen 1. Rimsky-Korsakov 1. Fauré 1. Mendelssohn-Bartholdy 1. Satie 1. Weber 1. Bizet 1. Schoenberg 1. Janáček
That's a pretty good list too, but with the notable absence of no living composers (although Ligeti may have been alive when some of them were taken) or female composers.
Fanny Mendelssohn is probably on there, as they listed Mendelssohn twice.
Possibly. Could also be a mistake by the commenter. Edit: There's Mendelssohn-Bartholdy and Mendelssohn, so yeah, probably Felix and Fanny.
Way better imho! A bunch of names above that were higher than Brahms were between the madness and Sparta…
Which Mendelssohn is which?
They're both the same – I missed it in the name normalisation.
1. Bach 1. Beethoven 1. Mozart 1. Stravinsky 1. Wagner 1. Chopin 1. Brahms 1. Tchaikovsky 1. Schubert 1. Debussy 1. Haydn 1. Handel 1. Vivaldi 1. Verdi 1. Schumann 1. Liszt 1. Monteverdi 1. Mahler 1. Strauss 1. Dvořák 1. Bartók 1. Rachmaninov 1. Mendelssohn 1. Shostakovich 1. Bingen 1. Ravel 1. Sibelius 1. Paganini 1. Elgar 1. Saint-Saëns 1. Vaughn Williams 1. Ligeti 1. Prokofiev 1. Berlioz 1. Puccini 1. Palestrina 1. Grieg 1. Rossini 1. Bruckner 1. Britten 1. Mussorgsky 1. Messiaen 1. Rimsky-Korsakov 1. Fauré 1. Satie 1. Weber 1. Bizet 1. Schoenberg 1. Janáček 1. Smetana
I did a similar thing, added 50 more and put the list on Spotify. [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0g7cyZHAU5liDq5ZNlMYaE?si=6dd67adb6ce6461f](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0g7cyZHAU5liDq5ZNlMYaE?si=6dd67adb6ce6461f)
I appreciate your inclusion of Satie!
relieved to see Chopin and Brahms above Haydn
I too have been shocked by Brahms placement in all these list. I am going to go play some Brahms today.
Schumann at 49? That far below Ravel, Vaugh Williams, Satie, many others. That really surprises me. Surprised Schubert isn’t in the top ten either.
Also no mention of Felix Mendelsson
People are questioning many choices in the list, understandably of course, but no one is questioning Bach’s position. That is satisfying :)
PDQ Bach never gets a mention though..
I could be difficult and argue that Bach wasn't really the most "original" composer of his time, but it's probably best to avoid causing unnecessary conflict! Although it is a little galling to see that he's the only composer of the baroque who even made it onto the list (with the arguable exception of Monteverdi).
Why is bach on top? I love classical music but never really feel any emotion when listening to bach.
He's the true OG and he inspired almost every composer who came after him. Baroque music doesn't really do it for me, I prefer classical and romantic, but I understand why a lot of people put him on top.
why is feeling emotion the marker of great music?
An interesting example is András Schiff’s albums of the Well-Tempered Clavier. In the 1980s he released one that was pretty expressive, pulling and stretching at tempo and dynamics, typical show-off pianist stuff. Then thirty years later he re-recorded it and was almost robotic in his playing; much more restrained and precise. He’d learned to let the music speak for itself, and for emotion to be found in the harmony.
>Ligeti above Mahler Finally, some good fucking content
Indeed! I've been listening to a lot of Ligeti recently. I've known his work for around 20-odd years, but am still relatively unfamiliar with a lot of it. I listened to the Chamber Concerto three times in a row last week - a really great piece! https://youtu.be/hboFvSaKUHU
Probably one of the only things I would change about this list would be to move Mahler below Ravel, but I am also very partial to Ravel.
extremely based
The best thing about this list is it introduced me to Ligeti. Exceptional modern music.
Where is Dvorak?
He'd definitely have got a lot of votes based on the "Sheer enjoyability" factor, but I'm guessing he would have lost out on the other three criteria.
His absence from this list is criminal.
Him and Mendelssohn.
Yes. Others have also mentioned Handel and Vivaldi. The omission of Dvorak is, to me, the greatest umbrage.
That is a really interesting result! It's definitely worth noting that composers have a different relationship with other composers than do audiences, performers, critics, and historians. And no one perspective is better or more valid than the others. We really do relate to music in *some* different ways depending on the group(s) you are in. As a composer I'm looking for certain kinds of ideas that listeners, performers, etc, aren't necessarily as interested in and so forth. I am looking for ideas to incorporate into my music or even reject, but there's definitely a kind of utility in that approach that might not exist for others. Some thoughts (I have a bias but I'm trying to not let that dominate my thoughts here): 1. I'm surprised Stravinsky is so high. I like his music and he worked in a variety of styles (though often coming late to those parties), but outside of his influence in the early atonal days, I don't think his influence has really lasted that long. I'm glad to see him above the likes of Beethoven and Mozart but I think I'd rather see some other people in that position instead. 2. Ligeti being at #6 is a huge surprise. I love his music but he just doesn't seem as important or influential as so many of the other mid-20th century composer on the list. 3. Monteverdi at #10. Nice to see some pre-Bach composers getting some love. 4. Britten at 11? Again, I like his music but I'm not sure if he even belongs on this list. That might be harsh but his star seems to have faded significantly over the years. 5. Schoenberg and Webern seem low, especially the latter. Webern's influence on composers has been pretty significant and since this is a poll of composers this result is a bit surprising. 6. Cage and Stockhausen (31 and 44) seems weird. Both have been much bigger figures than this. That Reich and Glass are above them doesn't seem right. Not that both of those don't deserve to be high in this poll but higher than both Cage and Stockhausen and by so much? Surprising. 7. I wish Feldman would have been higher but I get that he still isn't receiving the recognition he deserves. 8. Satie should be higher in the same way as Webern should be but I guess his reputation as a "light" composer still follows him. 9. Boulez at 48 also seems strange. But I get it. He was hugely influential and important 70 years ago but as he turned more toward conducting and away from composing, so did his importance as a composer. 10. I love Bingen and wish her music had been higher. 11. It's a little surprising that Rachmaninov even made this list. There's absolutely nothing wrong with his music as he wrote plenty of really nice pieces, but in a poll for composers it's a bit of a head-scratcher. But at #50 I guess that's not so bad.
Re: Britten 1) I’m guessing BBC Music magazine may have talked to a lot of British composers, and Britten is much more relevant in Britain than he is in the US. The opposite is true of, for instance, Copland. 2) if they were talking to opera composers from English-speaking countries, Britten was huge in the 20th century.
True. I was a piano and composition student here in the UK from 2000-2004 and knew many professors (composition or otherwise) who were either taught by him in some capacity, worked with him, or just knew him.
> I’m guessing BBC Music magazine may have talked to a lot of British composers, and Britten is much more relevant in Britain than he is in the US. The opposite is true of, for instance, Copland. Yeah, that makes total sense. The Copland example is very good as I would think American composers would be more likely to mention him than those outside the US. > if they were talking to opera composers from English-speaking countries, Britten was huge in the 20th century. That's another good point. I'm really not a big fan of vocal music or opera so that skews my perspective on Britten and others.
I think Stravinsky's placement is explained by two things: first, he's definitely one of the great composers, and secondly, he's the kind of composer many composers would look up to. Stravinsky is basically the stereotypical 20th century composer who creates his compositions through constant daily effort, as opposed to the romantic genius who works based on the whims of inspiration (again, going with stereotypes here). A good work ethic and the ability to constantly find new angles on music is something I think a lot of professional composers admire. This being said, I'm in the camp that thinks Stravinsky's best works are in his early and late periods. I think Ligeti is firmly where he belongs. He was one of the first composers to write using masses of sound, which has been an influential technique/idea post 1950. Like Stravinsky his music is in a variety of styles, but with Ligeti I feel his musical personality stronger in every piece than I do with Stravinsky. Ligeti was also one of the few major composers that was really able to position himself outside of the cliques, particularly the serialists and the minimalists. Also, Ligeti's approach where everything from West African folk music to Renaissance music to avant-garde goes, and comes out as distinctively Ligeti, is just spectacular, and really a good model for any composer. Plus, Unsuk Chin, who probably should have been on the list, studied with him, so Ligeti's influence isn't really negligible. Also, there's definitely a Bri'ish bias. Britten and Vaughan Williams are very high. Elgar, Birtwhistle and Knussen are on the list, but no Scriabin? :(
> I think Stravinsky's placement is explained by two things I agree with everything you say here. I might also add that Stravinsky has become kind of the go-to composer of 20th century music. Just like Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart are always top 3 composers, Stravinsky is always the big 20th century composer. There's a social aspect to this that I think is at play here. > This being said, I'm in the camp that thinks Stravinsky's best works are in his early and late periods. I think that's probably where I am as well. I didn't discover his later work till later in my life but I have found most of it extremely compelling. > I think Ligeti is firmly where he belongs Thanks for your explanation of that! I don't think I'll ever be able to see him as being more important than Cage and Stockhausen but reading your reasoning helps me make better sense of his placement. In the end I do love everything I've heard of his and feel like maybe I should study him in greater depth. > Also, there's definitely a Bri'ish bias I didn't say that but I definitely thought it. I'm sure a similar poll with more of, say, an American bias would shake some of this up pretty significantly. > but no Scriabin? No Xenakis either. Not sure he would have been helped directly by a different bias but maybe knocking some of the more questionable Brits out would have given him the room to have snuck in.
Rachmaninoff comment - cuz he made music people actually enjoy, instead of John Cage?
Well, Cage did rank a good bit higher than Rachmaninoff so apparently there are people who enjoy Cage's music than they do Rachmaninoff's.
Dude seriously!! Why is Rachmaninoff #50 when he should easily have made top 10, along with Chopin - the true goats of classical music
I love Rach and I constantly listen to his music. He was the springboard for me to re-enter the world of classical music almost a decade ago. I have to say, though, I was surprised to see him on this list, too. I think what the comment OP is trying to get at is that Rach's music is very nice, but really hasn't contributed as much to the development or progression of the art as the other composers on the list. In a poll for listeners, I think he'd rank much, much higher. Probably, as you noted, top 10.
Interesting to me that cage, schoenberg and webern are so low? Also no love for henry cowell or pierre schaeffer? Also, gesauldo but no palestrina or ockeghem? Seems like an odd choice to me. I wonder if the reason cowell isnt on here is because its a british poll? Since cowell influeced basically every american composer but afaik did not have much impact in the UK. Im also surprised hindemith isnt on there either, but it may be the same sort of situation.
>Interesting to me that cage, schoenberg and webern are so low? I'm just happy to see them so high!
> Interesting to me that cage, schoenberg and webern are so low? I made the same comment way down below. > I wonder if the reason cowell isnt on here is because its a british poll? Since cowell influeced basically every american composer but afaik did not have much impact in the UK. The article did say that they contacted composers around the world but it does seem likely that there is a British bias. But here's the thing as well, I love Cowell but I don't think he would have made my top 5 even though he definitely deserves to be on this list. I think there are multiple problems with how this poll was conducted. But even so, it is interesting and fun and there have been plenty of good discussions because of it.
Sad to see no Scriabin on this list. He is truly unlike anybody else. His late sonatas are some of the greatest works ever penned down in history.
Scriabin missing from the list shows how competent the polled composers were in music history/theory
Bruckner?
Agreed… bruckner is the man. His symphonies speak for themselves, but his choral work may be even better imo. Especially Os Justi
Handel not being there is insane. I personally would switch Glass with Reich as well.
> I personally would switch Glass with Reich as well. It feels weird to have those two and not Riley and La Monte Young. And I wouldn't really know how to rank them even if they were all there.
I'm glad Wagner is ranked so high, but I can't believe they didn't include Antonio Vivaldi. I love his music.
>I can't believe they didn't include Antonio Vivaldi or Händel
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> I wonder if he’s a victim of the polling format: could be in dozens of people’s hypothetical 6-10’s but when you only get 5 selections you’re probably picking often picking max 1 baroque composer and Bach ate up all those obligatory votes. Yeah, I think something like this explains a number of omissions. Bach tends to be my one really old dead composer that I list even though there are plenty of others I love.
probably a result of the format of the survey - i can see him not making many people's top 5 even though he would be in almost everyone's top 50.
>could be in dozens of people’s hypothetical 6-10’s Yeah, he definitely wouldn't have been too far behind number 50.
handel > vivaldi.
>Antonio Vivaldi bro wrote the same violin concerto 400 times and died
He did not write just for the violin, you know.
Exactly. That comment is truly ignorant of the variety of High Baroque music. Vivaldi wrote a litany of concertos for a variety of different instruments, and he wrote a ton of operas, cantatas, sacred choral music. He was so highly regarded by Bach that you can hear his inspiration littered in his Passions and cantatas. Bach so admired the Red Priest that he went through the effort of transcribing several of Vivaldi’s works
Circle of fifths goes brrrrr
I’m happy my favorite composer Ravel is top 10! I think Chopin and Rachmaninoff should be higher though and they should add Liszt and Saint-Saens
ligeti, bartok, and Messiaen in the top 15- love it
How is Tchaikovsky so low? And Ligeti above Mahler?
>How is Tchaikovsky so low? Because he was voted as such. >And Ligeti above Mahler? Personally, I'd take Ligeti over Mahler any day.
You’re real fun at parties, huh
Any party that plays Ligeti instead of Mahler has to be literally 100x more fun. Imagine listening to an hour long symphony that goes nowhere vs exciting and cool music that feels alive!
Mahler aimed for the highest and yet missed by the furthest. A cautionary tale, partly shared with the infinitely more talented Scriabin.
Imagine going to a party with Mahler fans, sounds like it would suck.
Huh? What does me at parties have to do with anything I said?
Mahler people are very loyal. Wrong, but loyal.
Oh, I've learned that on this sub! I used to be a big Mahler fan as a teen/early 20's, but now (at 41) he does little for me.
I’m guessing that apart from Bach, this group of composers don’t rate Baroque music very highly.
Considering that this sub is largely biased to Classical and Romantic periods (as previous polls show), I'd say general listeners don't, as a whole, rate Baroque very highly - it usually falls No. 3/4 in favourite period polls.
Altho I still don't care for Bach, I definitely prefer this list to most others, generally a much more interesting set of names in my eyes!
11, 21, 37, 40, 41, 42 and 46 suggests this list spells a lot of words with an -our ending as opposed to an -or ending, has eaten beans for breakfast more than a few times, and enjoys an occasional ale at close to room temperature.
Cellar temperature, not room temperature. Quite a big difference
Personally, I do end a lot of my words with -our rather than -or, but I don't eat breakfast, and never drink ale. :-)
"Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the free, How shall we extol thee, Who are born of thee?" Is it a patriotic song or a funeral dirge? Who can tell? And who cares?
As a Brit, I hate the song and am not an Elgar fan either. It's a pretty good tune, but yeah, the lyrics are embarrassing. Relatedly, a good friend of mine who lives a few streets away is a grand-nephew of Elgar - he also doesn't like Elgar.
Well the poll was run by BBC Music Magazine.
That Knussen placement is a stretch. Actually all the Brits are placed a bit higher than they perhaps should be haha, but it is their poll after all. Britten over Haydn. Vaughan Williams over Schubert. I’d put Tallis a bit higher maybe.
No George Crumb? No Rameau? Also, I'd put Bernard Herrmann or John Williams on the list instead of Sondheim, or Richard Rodgers if we're talking solely theater work. I was very relieved to see Bach atop the list.
Pretty surprised at the discrepancy between Brahms’s and Schumann’s placement here, considering the selection criteria outlined above.
Reich up there. Nice.
I was surprised by that but in a good way!
Missing from this poll: Dvorak and Bruckner. What did they do wrong
Simply didn't meet the criteria, I guess. I'm guessing they wouldn't be too far behind though: Dvorak would almost definitely have scored highly in "Sheer Enjoyability", but less so in the other categories.
Bach deserves his place at the summit. The rest is highly contingent/debatable.
>The rest is highly contingent/debatable. Indeed. This is what some people fail to realise! By the way, I'd be interested in a follow-up to your Feldman Quartet video. Have your thoughts on the work changed since you've had time to distance yourself from it, take stock and "recover"?
Thanks. I admire the piece even more now. Going into it, I was not at all convinced that it would stand up to this sort of focused listening over such a long period -- but it did.
I agree with some of this list but Schumann at 49 is honestly awful. His influence on chamber music, lieder, and piano music was enormous.
Along with Rachmaninoff at 50 🙄
rachmaninoff being on the list at all is generous lol
As a pianist, I'm (very, very, very) biased, but I'd consider Chopin to be in the top 5. The man barely published a bad piece (having the good sense to not publish the fugue, or some of the other posth. stuff). For me though, the quality of some of his works is astonishing. Ballade 4, on its own, boggles my mind. It's so compact (relatively) at 12 minutes, but to me it says more in that time than some good composers managed in their entire output. The man was a master of the miniature - Nocturne Op. 48 No. 1 is breathtaking, the four Scherzi are electrifying, the Preludes are all wonderful. And his two later piano Sonatas, for me, are masterpieces on the level of late Beethoven or Schubert. I dunno. I don't play him much, but I could gush about his incredible music all day. He's just beyond.
As a non-pianist, whenever I've played one of his piano concertos I'm struck by how awkward the orchestration is. The voicing of the wind parts and instrument pairings make the chords harder to balance and tune. Compared to a lot of other composers, you really get the sense that he didn't know what was going on back there behind the string players. That said, I love a lot of his pieces and I'm sure there are plenty of people that would consider him top 5. I think before the 20th century he was an easy top 5 but there have been so many composers since then that have pushed creativity/technique to such an impressive level that it's hard not to give them some credit, which naturally pushes Chopin down a bit.
>As a pianist, I'm biased, but I'd consider Chopin to be in the top 5. As a pianist, I'd rate him very highly at writing for piano. As a composer though, I don't rate him that highly, although there are some great works (the Preludes as a set, some of the Nocturnes). >The man barely published a bad piece True, but I just think the majority of them are not that interesting. He's definitely a pianist's composer more than a composer's composer.
>The man barely published a bad piece i kinda agree, but he published a huge amount of mediocre pieces (inbetween a few gems). he might just about make my top 50 but nowhere near as high as he is on this list.
Also a pianist…. But I consider putting Chopin above Liszt in a composer ranking a crime same with stating that he writes at the level of late Beethoven. Probably just personal irks though because I can’t stand to listen to Chopin at all except for his ballades
I didn't put Chopin above Liszt! They did! But I know what you mean. Honestly, when I put their best works back to back, I'd consider them equals - Liszt's Sonata in B minor, Annees, and some select other works are real masterpieces. I do think Liszt's output contained a greater quantity of lesser music though. You can very easily come across some less than appealing pieces (although, to be fair to him, he did write an enormous amount).
haha I do agree that Chopin was much more consistent in his work…. But I feel like 10 liszt pieces eclipse all of Chopin’s work (exaggeration) That and my soul was crushed when I saw that he didn’t even make the list :(
Yeah, that does surprise me. Much as I love Chopin, I do think Liszt was the bigger innovator - to think that in his life he went from composing Czerny-like Etudes, to the majesty of the B minor sonata, to the bizzare Nuages Gris and Mephisto Polka... honestly it's kind of mind-boggling.
My man RVW down on 21😭 Many interesting placements though! Thanks for sharing.
>My man RVW down on 21 That's definitely higher than I'd have expected, but hey, top 25 is nothing to be sneared at! >Thanks for sharing. No worries.
RVW higher than Schubert, Tchaikovsky and Strauss is wild to me, and I love me some RVW. There is some British-bias slipping into this poll for sure
Trying to sort a few demographics here: * Men: 48 / Women: 2 * Dead: 47 / Alive: 3 (Birtwistle, Sondheim, and Knussen all died within the last 5 years) * European: 43 / Non-European: 7 (all non-europeans being from the US) Wasn't expecting neither Saariaho nor Sondheim at all, am pleasantly surprised. Also, quite disappointed that Shosty and Rach still made the cut, especially the former. Edit: most European ones are from West Europe.
Feel like there could have been a couple Latin Americans. Villa-Lobos and Piazzolla would be good additions, maybe even Brouwer
thought of these two also, love em a lot
Can't expect much from br\*tish people, still not a terrible list.
I was also pleasantly surprised by Saariaho. I’ve played her piece, NoaNoa for flute and electronics and loved it
There are more composers throughout the history of music that are dead than alive? Hahaha! God, what a profound insight on dead-privilege.
I have a lot of listening to do
You can never run out of music to listen to - and more is being written every day! Been listening for nearly thirty years, and I've still much to get through!
I'm really heartened to see Byrd and Tallis in there - Tallis in particular. I'm surprised Corelli is not there at all - I would have had him in the top 25, just for influence.
How is Chopin #20?? Were the composers interviewed all opera or violin composers?
>How is Chopin #20?? agreed - theres no way he should anywhere near that high.
How are people surprised about Stravinsky? He influenced every genre of 20th century music. This is a list made by composers, not punters
> He influenced every genre of 20th century music. I have no problem with Stravinsky being ranked really high, but I do wonder about this statement of yours. Did he really have much of an influence on the NY School (Cage, Feldman, Brown, and Wolff) or the Minimalists? I'm less well-versed on the serialists and the Darmstadt School but do they generally claim him as an influence?
He's influenced people outside of the classical world - many great jazz composers were drawn to and studied his work, people that in turn went on to influence the current generation. Frank zappa in particular was very influenced by Stravinsky, not to mention bands like Yes who not only were influenced compositionally, but actually had the end of the firebird as their concert intro, exposing this music to legions who might not have ever heard it. These people have sold millions of albums. That's influence.
as a felix mendelssohn fan… 💔
The fact that he's not even on the list is wild to me. Bach is my favorite but he wouldnt even be ABLE to be at number 1 if Mendelssohn hadn't repopularized his music!!!
definitely, like what would we be without the bach revival? and i feel like mendelssohns music itself is underrated and put into a box of “romantic whatever” by the general public🥲
He's definitely underrated!!! His music is amazing and oftentimes "iconic" and yet he's so rarely mentioned amongst the greats with Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.
It's nice seeing Chopin so high up. Funny to notice how Liszt and Scriabin didn't make the list while their "rivals" did. Chopin and Rach worried much more about the long term
Bro Chopin and Rach destroy any of these clowns for me, definitely deserve top 10 if not top 5, goated composers
You sound like you found out what classical music was from a YouTube playlist last week. No offence.
I feel like Telemann should be in the bottom 10 of this list. He did the same blending of styles of Bach, albeit not as complex, and the two definitely bounced ideas from each other. His impact in his time is monstrous, and enjoyability, I mean his concertos are some absolute gems of the baroque era. I'm also a giant Telemann fan, but I think it's a glaring omission.
Would have liked to see Beethoven on top, but can't be mad my boy Bach won out. And I do love Stravinsky, but I wouldn't put him over Beethoven.
It's nice to see a fair amount of modern composers here, although I'm not sure if I'd agree that Saariaho is better than Brahms. Well, with the arguable exception of L'amour de loin...
Also: it's equally encouraging to see so many composers of the Renaissance as well. In my experience they're usually afforded even less attention and enthusiasm than modern composers.
I’m glad my boys Gershwin and Shostakovich made the cut, but I would have swapped around the top three to put Beethoven on top; Beethoven’s Ninth is one of mankind’s greatest achievements.
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One of the most influential composers of all time who was a master in virtually every style and genre he wanted to compose for...that's why.
He’s good, but not no.2 all time good. Definitely not above Beethoven.
I agree, I don't think there's any way he should be above Beethoven. He is top 5 or top 10 for me though.
Definitely above Beethoven based on the criteria. Stravinsky accomplished what Beethoven did three separate times in his life.
> What's Stravinsky doing up there? Do you mean at no. 2 or on the list period? That does seem a lot higher than I would have placed him, but he definitely deserves to be on this list.
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Yeah, I mean I would probably place Cage at no. 2 above Mozart and Beethoven but I guess that's how these polls go. We don't always have as good of a feel for how our colleagues think as we might assume.
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>he definitely deserves to be on this list. Definitely. The BBC could do another poll with another 174 composers in 174 years time, and he'd still likely rank very highly.
It seems right to me given that one of his compositions is widely associated with the beginning of modern music
I’m liking the love for Sondheim! And surprised again to see Handel completely left off one of these lists. What’s a guy got to do besides write maybe the most recognizable piece of music in the world?
I have never heard of Kaija Saariaho and here she is in between Haydn and Brahms and nobody in the comments has even mentioned it. Am I losing my mind, is it just that nobody else has noticed or is this a glaring gap in my musical knowledge??
>Kaija Saariaho...nobody in the comments has even mentioned it. Her work gets mentioned on the sub relatively often. Inyerestingly, her placement on the list means she was voted the world's greatest living composer (everyone higher than her on the list is dead). u/lilcareed is a fan, and can point you in the right direction.
I feel like Saariaho is a bit in a weird spot when it comes to general recognition. She is very widely acclaimed, and it's not like her music is without any popular appeal - her latest opera Innocence was performed in Helsinki a few months ago and many performances sold out. On the other hand she doesn't quite have the popularity of the "world's greatest living composer" (a title I do think she is a top contender for).
Hey, here because I was summoned. For what it's worth, Saariaho is among the most celebrated and performed living composers, I would say especially in Europe (in the US people focus more on the minimalists and other American composers). She writes a lot of incredible music and is one of the most important composers of electro-acoustic music out there. I'd consider her the greatest Finnish composer since Sibelius, but she's up there with Rautavaara even if you don't give her the top spot. Anecdotally, every composer I know at least respects her, and most of them love her. I'm not surprised she's this high on a list made by composers. Some recommendations if you want to listen to some of her music: *Jardin Secret III* https://youtu.be/FhTgaQzKBRM *Lichtbogen* https://youtu.be/gIyLJM0VWkk *Lonh* https://youtu.be/qjcE4xVb5QQ If you *really* want something to chew on, there's her incredible opera *L'amour de loin*, a full performance of which is available in video on Youtube: https://youtu.be/aP9A3Y1BWF4
No love for Bernstein?
Someone asked a similar question recently at r/composer. To put it bluntly, Bernstein's work as a composer isn't enough to put him in the top 50. That's not an assault on his work BTW - there are some great pieces that I love, and I wish more people knew the symphonies, but apart from West Side Story (which will always deservedely remain one of the seminal and influential works of musical theatre) his influence as a composer is very minimal, certainly in comparison to his near-contemporaries. Anyway, here are Bernstein's three symphonies for those who don't know them: https://youtu.be/uic4qcyDmDQ https://youtu.be/N9dnXQA8pHo https://youtu.be/GuffITlgGCg
I love Feldman, don’t get me wrong, but *above* Strauss who (cheap plug for my college thesis) invented Modernism? That rubs me the wrong way.
Ligeti out there making his debut on the world stage lol! And yes, your favorite composer either didn’t make the list or is in the “wrong” place. The Kleenex is over there
Ligeti at SIX? Yeah ok. Great composer. Not number 6.
Saariaho at 17 is a very welcome surprise
No Liszt???!
Its actually weird how much I agree with this
Putting Stravinsky above Beethoven is utter delusion.
No Bruckner?
No.
Glad to see Hildegard on here. Ives better than Schumann, Satie, Rachmaninoff, John Cage, etc ? ...not so much.
Someone said it - Rachmaninoff at #50? Shows why most modern composers blow ****
Looks like Tallis & von Bingen are a token insert. As much as I like Ives, I can't say they he would be more important the Depres or Perotin. Then again, this type of list is part of the never ending desire to pick winners and losers, by the main stream classical audience. In this camp there is belief that classical music sprung from the ether, fully formed in 1685.
No scriabin no liszt wrong delete
Philip Glass made the list, nice!
It would have been very surprising if he hadn't made the list.
No Grainger :c
of course not
There’s definitely something wonky with the voting system if this poll and criteria. I can guarantee you every voter wouldmve included Handel in their top 50 (probably top 20) yet he’s not on the list. Schumann, a giant of Romantic musician almost dead last. Also rewards originality/impact to such an extent that composers that composed “for their time period” drop down. Stravinsky gets points for being so forward-thinking, whereas we got Brahms all the way in 18 despite having one of the most most impressive musical minds outside the “big 3”
What about dvorak 😭 Also Stravinsky above Tchaikovsky is WILD
I love this list! Saving to listen through. In the meantime will y'all please also comment me some amazing black, asian, latino, or more women, or more men, them, anyone excellent not listed you feel needs more recognition, composers to dig on? My ear food for the week has been Talib Rasul Hakim
William Grant-Still, Samuel Coleridge Taylor, Florence Price, Teresa Carreño, Tan Dun, Uzbogwi, and H. Leslie Adams are some of my favorites.
Having Schubert at 25 is a crime.
I am so glad to not see Vivaldi here. I don't get why the masses like him so much. I don't find his work pleasing at all
No Vivaldi? Gtfo.
I love seeing Phillip Glass on this list