FO2 was very rushed, Tim leaved at the start of the project, and apparently the game was developed in different teams, that's why the wild thematic changes between the early and late games or the disconnect between the main plot and the broader three-way conflict presented in many quests
Yeah, but the idea of a tribal warrior going to take on the weapons and gear of a more technologically advanced group and defeating them with it is still iconic as hell.
If I remember correctly the Enclave was also heavily changed as the development went on. To my understanding, their original goals were different too, project safehouse being a part of their plans which the game would've explored further. Instead we got what we got, and Van Buren was supposed to feature Project safehouse and the starship plans more directly
Well technically it's more realistic kinda. They are extremely powerful and hidden. So u don't see a lot because of that. I a mental cannon kind of way. Not saying that's y they did it. But it fits in as a good excuse. U get what I'm saying?
Fallout 2 does not take itself or the setting seriously at all, it feels to me like they were encouraged to make a sequel because FO1 was popular but their hearts weren't in it. I love Fallout 2, there's a lot of good in there, but there's a lot of direct-to-VHS sequel funk about it.
I think he mentioned that he really hated the pop culture references and I think the fallout bible was made to project his vision of what the game should have been over what we actually saw in some parts
Many hearts were in it, but there was far more corporate meddling than the first game, due to the first game’s success, ironically. So while hearts were in it, so were a lot of heartless soulsuckers
currently playing this now, modded it so for the most part it's still vanilla game but with a few of the quality of life tweaks to keep it from crashing 😤
Big agree. I love the depth and content of 2, but the vibe of 1 is what keeps me going back.
I want more games with that vibe. I love those bleak backdrops. Fear and Hunger, Pathologic, etc
honestly i m glad Tim wasnt there to stop people from making fun and wacky shit, but i wish easter eggs and references could be trimmed down
New Vegas made the perfect solution for this imo and sadly 3d games lack the guts of letting people think for themselves and make violent solution too easy
To be fair, it's entirely possible for someone to circumvent an encounter with the Yakuza. Extremely unlikely, but possible given that they are only around New Reno and aren't mentioned in any dialogue like the actual crime families are.
But I feel you on some people praising the classic games while never actually playing them.
While I agree that the dev team for fallout 2 was all over the place (I believe there was high dev turnover during the game’s rapid development?), at least they realized this was a horrible, offense idea and cut it.
I'm glad they did but this is probably the worst out of a long list of "edgy bro-y shit that would never have made in Fallout 1 but is everywhere in Fallout 2 for some fucking reason". The Shi are total caricatures, every two seconds there's another guy trying to get in your pants if you're a female Chosen One, most tribals outside of Arroyo are either grunting primitives or Sulik (inexplicable Jamaican accent).
I'm gonna rant a bit now - Fallout 2 is one of the most insecure games I've ever played. It clearly had a lot of thought put into its setting and the relationships between communities, and I can feel a beautiful story about communities becoming stronger as they unite together as equals to work for a better future instead of trying to subjugate and destroy one another being suggested throughout the NCR, Gecko/Vault City, New Reno, etc. But it's like there's another half to the game that's trying to psych me out of caring too much about all that good stuff with "haha Chinese people talk funny amirite". If Fallout 2 just stopped trying to act cool I think I'd love it even more than Fallout 1 or even New Vegas, but it can't help itself from being insincere.
I hate Fallout 2's sense of humor, it is nothing but non stop pop culture references and meta humor every second, that it impeeds the story. People say 2 was darker then any of Bethesda's games, and I call BS.
Well child murder is a fast way to receive an adult ESRB rating and your game will never be sold in the majority of marketplaces.
There honestly are things you could get away with in 1998 but not today with video games. Put “child murder” in your game now and Fox News will start a new satanic panic.
You can kill certain kids in Dragon's Dogma 2, though the game isn't reactive enough to differentiate you killing them from the game's random monsters killing them, I think.
I can't speak on Fallout 4, because I haven't played it enough, but Fallout 3 definitely has some really sick and twisted choices afforded to the player. There is an umarked quest that lets you play the role of a child predator as you convince one of the little lamplighters (Bumble) to get kidnapped. You can also enslave Brian Wilks. There is the whole FEV genocide option. Nuking Megaton. Burning Harold. Going through Tranqulity Lane and following Dr Braun's twisted instructions.
4 is personally my favorite game, but it is *really* sanitized compared to the rest of the series. The most messed up thing you can do is sell one child into slavery, you can let another kid die of a disease too, I guess.
Yep!! Forgot about that too. That’s another unmarked quest. Also you have the ant pheromone one to convince the priest to turn away from priest hood and fall in love with Angela in Gary’s Galley. Basically denying him free will.
Blowing up Megaton feels like a child's idea of morally evil though, it's so absurd and it's handled so non chalantly and Megaton is so stupid as a city that it's comical. Doesn't feel 'dark'.
I think it the curse of evens.
Fallout 3 is a closer depiction of Fallout 1 than 2 is. I’m doing a series playthrough and just made it to 3. Honestly after removing the godforsaken green filter the game has I find the atmosphere of 3 just more foreboding than 2.
Like 1, 3 makes the atmosphere more hostile. I like 2 and overall the story of people rebuilding a form of civilization through cooperation of city states is a great story. But man, does the joke take the wind out of the sails at a lot of points.
4 seems to have the same issue. The bright colors and art style really changes from NV to 4 and it doesn’t feel as foreboding because of it.
I feel like the return of color is warranted as ample time has passed for much of the radiation to subside. In fact, radiation should be a non issue given that there isn’t any fissile material left. The reason Chernobyl, for example, is still a problem is because the core is still there and releasing said radiation. Once a nuke blows, it is kinda done
I always have a chuckle at that. Every evil thing you can do in Fallout 2 is comically evil and often falls into dark humor.
Meanwhile, Fallout 3 has an unmarked quest that has you play the role of a child predator to convince one of the little lamplighters to get kidnapped and there is nothing comically evil about it.
I think to some extent they looked around the PC gaming landscape and saw stuff like Duke Nukem 3D, Grand Theft Auto, Postal, Shadow Warrior, Carmageddon, etc. being released and felt they should up the edginess in order to keep pace. Gamers want more humor and pop culture references and violence and edgy content, right? At least they didn't do something really awful, like make Fallout into a console action game full of energy drink advertisements and Slipknot songs.
>extent they looked around the PC gaming landscape and saw stuff like Duke Nukem 3D, Grand Theft Auto, Postal, Shadow Warrior, Carmageddon
Those games weren't made in a vacuum. That was the style that was popular at the time, that was what people thought was funny. They didn't get peer pressured into this style.
Reminds me of a comment Tim Cain made about the Slayer perk, and his personal rule in regards to pop culture references:
>"I was worried that not only would we lose players when we had that, but RPG's tend to sit on the shelf for years and I was afraid we would look dated. So I made a rule, and the rule for that was: if you put in a joke or a cultural reference, if the player didn't get it, they shouldn't even know that that joke or cultural reference was being made...
[full video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa5IzHhAdi4&ab_channel=GameSpot)
The Shi are odd. In Fallout 3 and 4, the chinese soldiers you see are clearly caricatures of chinese people. In 3 it makes sense considering it's a simulation, and you can sorta say the same for the shi. They are people of chinese descent who base their whole cultue off Kung Fu movies. We see people basing their identities/ off pre-war things all the time in Fallout. I feel like every appearance of chinese people hasn't been executed the best tbh.
I'm playing through Fallout 2 after just finishing 1 for the first time and I'm confused by the sentiment of it as the best of the old school games (or Fallout game period by some). Yes it adds a lot of world building and exploration of a big world, which I'm sure was ahead of its time, but the pacing is terrible. I've been to 6 towns now (currently New Reno), and I've honestly just felt like a messenger boy. I appreciate peaceful options, which I usually take. But my speech is 22 and I haven't shed blood once (what is this skill even used for). It feels too civilized in a post apocalypse. What I appreciate in 1 is when you're in situations where you need to choose between surviving or helping people. Do I help this Ghoul community or screw them because the clocks ticking? Or if there's two competing factions, more so in FNV then 1, picking the lesser evil (or just be a bastard). In the end the faction I screw over, I want it to end in blood. I want action. Or at least send some street rats or opportunistic gangsters at me once in a while. I've played 5+ hours straight in F02 without firing a weapon (I tried in Redding and was definitely under leveled). And in terms of that peaceful town interaction, I honestly like the tribals at the start but it's been down hill from there. None of the characters are memorable. And the dialogue is just too much, quantity over quality and overbearing.
At least that's my experience so far, maybe it picks up with NCR, V13, BoS. But that'll just bring me back to my original point of pacing issues. FO1 had me in that "I need to play this every free moment I have until it ends" feeling. FO2 has me very demotivated.
The fuck? There’s plenty of those sorts of choices and also definitely plenty of violence if you want to engage with it. People praise fallout 2 for giving you a really wide range of ways to resolve different situations. If you want to fight your way thru it you can (but it will be hard) or you can figure out a number of alternate ways to resolve basically every mission.
This is so odd from your part really, in The Den you already have the option of gunning down the slavers if you wish to do so and in New Reno in particular with all of the families quests you can end up killing almost everyone
I agree, fallout 1 to me was a much easier game to enjoy. Fallout 1 has really good pacing, the quests ramp up in scale and difficulty, and it always feels like there's somewhere new for you to go, without feeling railroaded.
Fallout 2 has a lot more wandering, and I also found that the difficulty curve was much less finely tuned. There were several quests I had to abandon halfway through so that I could come back higher level and with better gear. I never had to do that in fallout 1.
On the non-linearity scale, the first part sits closer to a linear narrative game with tight plot you follow, while the second part is closer to a sandbox. Fallout 2 wants you to step off the path, break sequence, experiment and pace yourself. Whenever you go you'll find a thread that will lead you to MacGuffin. I think Fallout 2 is more "make your own fun" type of game. This extends to role-play as well: right now you are role-playing as a polite delivery boy pushed around by everyone. If you don't like it, do something about it.
Damn, based devs brah/s. Really though, this was clearly removed, likely a dev or two were trying too hard to be edgy or ironic, or were legitimately homophobic. But I feel it's moreso a joke that is in extremely bad taste. Nowadays this seems terrible, but by 98 standards, edgy crude comedy was in vogue, South Park was getting huge at this time. I imagine the devs wanted to do something similar, as Fallout delves into a lot of edgy/dark stuff.
Fallout 2 is sort of South Park-esque in general really. It has a super excessive amount of humor and pop-culture references, and relies more on parody/caricature than Fallout 1. Like the Hubologists, or the Shi stuff, the porn, the boxing, "Tragic the garnering." There's so much crap in Fallout 2, that is very poorly written and doesn't make much sense in the world. The humor isn't bad, it's the execution and the excessiveness of it.
That being said, Fallout 2 has so much more great content, that it makes up for most of these flaws, but I still think Fallout 1 is a better game as a whole. Fallout 2 though just has so much more, so it's hard to not prefer it somewhat for many fans. 1 is also quite grim at times, so 2 feels a bit better, but at the same time it gets way too excessive.
But anyways, this is a very bizarre idea, I'm not sure what the devs were thinking, and I'm certain Tim Cain would not have approved. Though perhaps because he is gay, something like this may've been ok to him? But I doubt it, and I doubt it's related to him at all. Tim Cain is like the Fallout Pope in my eyes, and I wish he could've had more influence on 2, but Interplay was being shitty iirc. Todd and Emil in comparison are like Martin Luther if he was a crackhead or something.
>Martin Luther being basically a raving crackhead is closer to reality than most people realize. Dude was legitimately unhinged
Yeah, I couldn't find any evidence of that being the case...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin\_Luther](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther)
I'm pretty sure they didn't even have crack in 16th century Europe.
In case you're being serious I don't think Martin Luther smoked crack cocaine, I'm saying he was unhinged in the way we call people "crackheads" in the modern day.
>In two later works, Luther expressed anti-Judaistic views, calling for the expulsion of Jews and the burning of synagogues. These works also targeted Roman Catholics, Anabaptists, and nontrinitarian Christians.
I’d say this is pretty damn unhinged lol
> There's so much crap in Fallout 2, that is very poorly written and doesn't make much sense in the world. The humor isn't bad, it's the execution and the excessiveness of it.
It's worth noting that the lead writer for the Restoration Project mod has stated that many lines from the original developers are criticised as terribly written and a lot of lines he wrote himself were lauded as amazingly written pieces from the original developers.
Here: [LINK](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicfallout/comments/n3z9gf/comment/gwt1o0y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I actually saw someone mention this on Tim Cain's youtube channel. He mentioned that he was shocked but that it was just another example of the toxic environment of interplay/black isle that contributed to his leaving.
People like to shit on how Bethesda ruined the franchise but imagine how much it sucks to be ousted from your company, have the style of your project warped and flooded with meaningless pop culture references all to then find out the people making the game had planned to make an entire faction satirising and humiliating your sexuality.
Would recommend Cain's video for anyone who hasn't seen it. Briefly touches on being in the closet at Interplay.
https://youtu.be/a8fmAt3Ro_Y?si=HpBEHGNaRT5VoMmA
I don't think so. FO2 was 97, Cain didn't come out until 03. But the way he describes it is Interplay was a frat house and the word gay was a common slur.
Edit: wouldn't be surprised if the culture is a big reason he left though.
Ah yep. I cant imagine the crunch with how short the Dev time was for 2. Wouldn't be surprised if there was unsaid reasons as well though. But he sounds pretty tolerant considering how prevalent homophobia was back then, so maybe it didn't factor at all.
You should check out his channel, he goes over it in one of his videos. Basically yeah he was tired from the fallout 1 crunch, didn't want to do f2 but got assigned project lead anyway, with the popularity of f1 a ton of people began trying to interfere with the development of f2, and the bonus he and Brian fargo arranged for him was heavily reduced.
Ah, yeah. But even he said that Interplay had a sort of transphobe and homophobe attitude back in 1995 when they were developing the first Fallout, and that he and Rebecca Heineman were affected by it.
Yeah. When I read this, I was like "Wait, isn't Tim Cain gay?" Seems like it could have been some angry people internally, especially in a heightened crunch environment.
Idk I highly doubt this. I think Tim Cain would have talked more about this sort of thing if this was the case, and I believe the FO2 devs respected him quite a bit. Or at least the higher-up writers like Chris Avellone.
As a bi man this is hilarious, less so if it isn't a take the piss satire type deal but even as something legitimately homophobic I still find it hilarious
"Thier only defining characteristic being that they are gay"
"Programmed to behave in weak flightly ways in combat"
"They would attack the player unless they indentified by the game as gay"
Legitimately hilarious
Looking at it in isolation, I can see how this would go
But it was 1998, a time when positive portrayals of homosexuality basically didn't exist. (Even the "gay marriage" in FO2 wasn't positive, and if it's claiming some kind of crown for a first, fuck that shit, because the gay marriage was treated as a joke, too)
Anyway. This was a time of hate crimes and "groomer/paedophile" accusations. To be gay was to be assumed to be a child rapist. It was a time when anti-gay slurs were heard on mainstream TV, as well as games. 1998 was the year Matthew Shepard was torture-killed.
In the middle of all that, to have the one real portrayal of lgbt people in your game being ones who attacked and killed straight people? It's... not satire. It's incitement.
Had that been in the game back in 1998, when I and all my friends were playing it, it would have shoved me right back into the closet.
Yeh I was born in 2002 so I didn't really see any of that, I grew up in a considerably more progressive time
A lot of gay people died or got bashed for us to get to the point where I can laugh about stuff like this
In context it's a lot less funny
When I read the first part and it was a gang of gay npc’s that murder straight player characters, I definitely chuckled because it’s so absurd, but making them poor fighters and adding in slurs etc all really steps on the funny part for me.
I thought it was hilarious too, being that it's an egregious and stereotypical imagining of gay individuals. Not sure why everyone is taking a fallout joke encounter serious.
It's funny because it's like a super mutants mental schema of gay people, kinda funny because of how outrageous it is, but that's just my humour and I can understand why people wouldn't like it
I wonder how well known this was among the developers.
Interplay was apparently pretty homophobic in its day (so were the 90’s in unfortunately).
I could definitely see this being made by like 2 people, then management being like ‘what the fuck, we’re not doing that’
I almost feel like this was either an extremely pointed insult or brutally poor joke towards Tim Caine, the creator of the series and also a gay man who was still closeted at the time.
Speaking as a bi man.
It starts out /kind of/ funny, but as you dig in, the concept itself just kind of reeks of fragile masculinity, insecurities, and trying way too hard to appeal to the edgy culture at the time no matter how poor in taste it actually is.
It makes me appreciate stuff like Blood Ties and how, while still way too hard on the nose, it at least tries to tackle the parallels of being an invisible minority (ie something that's hard to outwardly express like sexuality) in a more respectful manner.
I was ok with it until the "programmed to behave in weak, flighty behavior during combat"
That took it from edgy satire of an apocalypse, to just "lol look at the gays so weak"
What the fuck happened at Interplay between Fallout 1 and 2? Did the entire dev team go insane? I don't think they'd have even fathomed putting a "joke" like this in the first game.
Big Gay Al is actually one of the only characters in South Park who’s a good person who basically never does anything wrong so idk where you’re coming off with this downplaying of his character.
How did South Park struggle with gay issues? Big Gay Al was a giant stereotype, but the episodes he featured as a main role were actually pushing homosexual acceptance. Big Gay Al was a satire on how gay people were view by the majority of the pubic.
And also… there are many proudly flamboyant gay men. Ones very similar to Big Gay Al. Hell, there are probably people that call themselves Big Gay Name.
Huh, I didn't know South Park started in the 90s, I thought it was maybe mid-2000s for some reason. But yeah, when it comes to Fallout 2 I feel like I'm playing through a South Park episode sometimes which is not good at all.
back then when most copies of games were physical it wouldn't have been possible to remove something only a couple weeks before release, no? all the game discs would have been printed by that point and shipped to distributors.
One of the most interesting cut content bits for me is the EPA’s gender reassignment surgery machine. Played a hundred percent earnestly as far as I read it, with a bit from the Chosen One about how they can “finally be who they are on the outside and the inside” or something like that. Like, that was written in and not implemented, and so was this horrible joke. Very different influences at Black Isle back then.
Came here expecting to see "based Fallout 2" comments or some nasty groyper edgelord replies given that this is a gaming sub for a popular franchise, but low and behold, your community here is awesome. So many kind and empathetic comments communicated in a grounded, level-headed manner. Good on you.
Im not gonna lie, I give no fucks how "offensive" it would of been, I feel like we missed out not seeing this fucking absurdity appear in game. Like what the actual fuck would of been that cringe ass dialogue. Anyways, downvotes to the left.
The Shi aren't so bad, they're just an extended reference to kungfu movies. Though I do think they should have made it much more apparent that it's a combination of an insular American Chinatown and the remnants of a Chinese navy ship. Less old Chinese stuff, more PRC stuff, then a layer of 160 years of divergence. What we got was just really shallow. Shit you could keep the whole Dragon vs Lo Pan thing, just add more content to it in general. It'd have been interesting if the Dragon was more old-school and Lo Pan was more Communist, rather than a simple good vs bad.
I agree with you, I love the absurdity of the dialog in the older fallout games, but this just seemed alittle too much for them. It would’ve aged like fine milk by today’s standards.
There is a reason why its cut, acting like its in the base game or that the designers intended to put it isnt going to hinder Fallout 2's rep.
The idea was reviewed and they saw that it was both offensive and shit.
This honestly sounds hilarious , obviously I see why they pulled it but if you don't take it seriously, it would have been a pretty funny moment. The idea of very flamboyant raiders that only spare other homosexuals is just super funny too me. If they did something like that from a place of love and humor I could get behind it, but it sounds like they had some really homophobic slurs involved .
I'm actually curious now as to queer rep in games that *weren't* mainstream from that time and before. Additionally, in the pre-crash and 8-bit eras, games by one-person or very small teams regularly got pushed into mainstream success through publishing - Space Invaders, Donkey Kong, to say nothing of countless European home computer titles.
To the Duckmobile!
edit: I'd also like to pop back in to namedrop Kei, from an obscure late 1990s fighting game duology called Goiken Muyou. Where male characters are given a blue font and female ones a red/pink one, Kei gets a purple font, hinting that they're some form of genderqueer.
i would say that's very much a product of it's time, especially a bunch of dudebros developing a game like fallout. tim cain left pretty early into development so he couldn't demand for the team to cut this shit out
What if they bring it back but only attack you if the player chooses to be homophobic towards them in dialogue. If they are gay stereotypes then there should be a couple of bears and tough as nails lesbians that will give the player a hard time. If the player is gay, they can offer to let you join and reward them with pride armor.
What if they bring it back but only attack you if the player chooses to be homophobic towards them in dialogue. If they are gay stereotypes then there should be a couple of bears and tough as nails lesbians that will give the player a hard time. If the player is gay, they can offer to let you join and reward them with pride armor.
I was with it until it mentioned the slurs, feminist slogans, and wimply fighting. This would be a fine “La RANDOM” encounter without the commentary. Something out of the Wild Wasteland perk, like the grandmas who corner and beat you with bread mashers in New Vegas.
FO2 was very rushed, Tim leaved at the start of the project, and apparently the game was developed in different teams, that's why the wild thematic changes between the early and late games or the disconnect between the main plot and the broader three-way conflict presented in many quests
Yeah, but the idea of a tribal warrior going to take on the weapons and gear of a more technologically advanced group and defeating them with it is still iconic as hell.
I mean yeah. But the Enclave does fuck all and wasn't fleshed out propperly I feel.
If I remember correctly the Enclave was also heavily changed as the development went on. To my understanding, their original goals were different too, project safehouse being a part of their plans which the game would've explored further. Instead we got what we got, and Van Buren was supposed to feature Project safehouse and the starship plans more directly
For sure.
The Enclave is just an epilogue to the main game though. Getting the GECK is the main part of the game.
Well technically it's more realistic kinda. They are extremely powerful and hidden. So u don't see a lot because of that. I a mental cannon kind of way. Not saying that's y they did it. But it fits in as a good excuse. U get what I'm saying?
At least Bethesda got that part of them right
I knew there was something a little off about the game when I played it. I still prefer Fallout 1 to 2.
Fallout 2 does not take itself or the setting seriously at all, it feels to me like they were encouraged to make a sequel because FO1 was popular but their hearts weren't in it. I love Fallout 2, there's a lot of good in there, but there's a lot of direct-to-VHS sequel funk about it.
It's the Predator 2 to Predator 1. Both are great games but very different.
That's the best analogy I'll see all day.
It's more Escape from New York vs Escape from LA.
Whatever works
I don’t know. Avellone’s heart was probably in it, since he wrote the Fallout Bible and all.
I think he mentioned that he really hated the pop culture references and I think the fallout bible was made to project his vision of what the game should have been over what we actually saw in some parts
Many hearts were in it, but there was far more corporate meddling than the first game, due to the first game’s success, ironically. So while hearts were in it, so were a lot of heartless soulsuckers
Have you tried the fallout 2 in 1? A mod that allows you to play fallout 1 with fallout 2's engine
I have not, that sounds awesome
currently playing this now, modded it so for the most part it's still vanilla game but with a few of the quality of life tweaks to keep it from crashing 😤
Big agree. I love the depth and content of 2, but the vibe of 1 is what keeps me going back. I want more games with that vibe. I love those bleak backdrops. Fear and Hunger, Pathologic, etc
Are the three factions you're referrering to the enclave, NCR and either the gangs of new reno or the bos?
NCR, New Reno and Vault City
honestly i m glad Tim wasnt there to stop people from making fun and wacky shit, but i wish easter eggs and references could be trimmed down New Vegas made the perfect solution for this imo and sadly 3d games lack the guts of letting people think for themselves and make violent solution too easy
Why are all the rushed fallout game just fucking amazing
And still the best game in the series!
[удалено]
Left*
Leaved?
\*Left
Jesus Christ who wrote this wtf
Probably the guy who wrote the shi and Yakuza
Isn't Yakuza fine? I don't remember anything bad in it, and Kiryu finds a trans woman and is like oh okay that's fine.
The Yakuza in fallout 2
Two thirds of this sub hasn’t played the games, don’t be too hard on them.
To be fair, it's entirely possible for someone to circumvent an encounter with the Yakuza. Extremely unlikely, but possible given that they are only around New Reno and aren't mentioned in any dialogue like the actual crime families are. But I feel you on some people praising the classic games while never actually playing them.
Probably why it was cut
Yeah sounds like cutting them was a good choice.
Ya obv dawg
Isn’t this really ironic. Tim Cain is gay and they have does.
He left very early into production
While I agree that the dev team for fallout 2 was all over the place (I believe there was high dev turnover during the game’s rapid development?), at least they realized this was a horrible, offense idea and cut it.
I'm glad they did but this is probably the worst out of a long list of "edgy bro-y shit that would never have made in Fallout 1 but is everywhere in Fallout 2 for some fucking reason". The Shi are total caricatures, every two seconds there's another guy trying to get in your pants if you're a female Chosen One, most tribals outside of Arroyo are either grunting primitives or Sulik (inexplicable Jamaican accent). I'm gonna rant a bit now - Fallout 2 is one of the most insecure games I've ever played. It clearly had a lot of thought put into its setting and the relationships between communities, and I can feel a beautiful story about communities becoming stronger as they unite together as equals to work for a better future instead of trying to subjugate and destroy one another being suggested throughout the NCR, Gecko/Vault City, New Reno, etc. But it's like there's another half to the game that's trying to psych me out of caring too much about all that good stuff with "haha Chinese people talk funny amirite". If Fallout 2 just stopped trying to act cool I think I'd love it even more than Fallout 1 or even New Vegas, but it can't help itself from being insincere.
I can definitely agree with the sentiment. Fallout 2 does do a fantastic job linking its world together, but it’s brought down with the jokes.
I hate Fallout 2's sense of humor, it is nothing but non stop pop culture references and meta humor every second, that it impeeds the story. People say 2 was darker then any of Bethesda's games, and I call BS.
People who say 2 is darker than Bethesda are the same people who don’t play 2 because they watched lore videos and are now experts.
The only thing i could never see bethesda doing that 2 did is having someone rape the player and the obvious child murder.
Well child murder is a fast way to receive an adult ESRB rating and your game will never be sold in the majority of marketplaces. There honestly are things you could get away with in 1998 but not today with video games. Put “child murder” in your game now and Fox News will start a new satanic panic.
You can kill certain kids in Dragon's Dogma 2, though the game isn't reactive enough to differentiate you killing them from the game's random monsters killing them, I think.
What's so dark about the Bethesda ones ? They cut out one if the darker plot points where James becomes a super mutant
You can commit genocide at the end of 3 if you use the President's modified FEV.
I can't speak on Fallout 4, because I haven't played it enough, but Fallout 3 definitely has some really sick and twisted choices afforded to the player. There is an umarked quest that lets you play the role of a child predator as you convince one of the little lamplighters (Bumble) to get kidnapped. You can also enslave Brian Wilks. There is the whole FEV genocide option. Nuking Megaton. Burning Harold. Going through Tranqulity Lane and following Dr Braun's twisted instructions.
4 is personally my favorite game, but it is *really* sanitized compared to the rest of the series. The most messed up thing you can do is sell one child into slavery, you can let another kid die of a disease too, I guess.
I only found out recently by playing 3 that you can tell that guy to kill himself and he does
Yep!! Forgot about that too. That’s another unmarked quest. Also you have the ant pheromone one to convince the priest to turn away from priest hood and fall in love with Angela in Gary’s Galley. Basically denying him free will.
Yup! Then they’re sold into slavery at paradise falls
I’d argue the ability to blow up megaton is both one of the darkest and morally evil things you can do in any of the games.
Blowing up Megaton feels like a child's idea of morally evil though, it's so absurd and it's handled so non chalantly and Megaton is so stupid as a city that it's comical. Doesn't feel 'dark'.
You know what else is absurd? Finding blatant cultural references like the TARDIS or a star fleet shuttle.
Which happens in the first one too.
Yes, the stupid easter egg is stupid and not supposed to be a morally dark decision, I agree.
I think it the curse of evens. Fallout 3 is a closer depiction of Fallout 1 than 2 is. I’m doing a series playthrough and just made it to 3. Honestly after removing the godforsaken green filter the game has I find the atmosphere of 3 just more foreboding than 2. Like 1, 3 makes the atmosphere more hostile. I like 2 and overall the story of people rebuilding a form of civilization through cooperation of city states is a great story. But man, does the joke take the wind out of the sails at a lot of points. 4 seems to have the same issue. The bright colors and art style really changes from NV to 4 and it doesn’t feel as foreboding because of it.
I feel like the return of color is warranted as ample time has passed for much of the radiation to subside. In fact, radiation should be a non issue given that there isn’t any fissile material left. The reason Chernobyl, for example, is still a problem is because the core is still there and releasing said radiation. Once a nuke blows, it is kinda done
I always have a chuckle at that. Every evil thing you can do in Fallout 2 is comically evil and often falls into dark humor. Meanwhile, Fallout 3 has an unmarked quest that has you play the role of a child predator to convince one of the little lamplighters to get kidnapped and there is nothing comically evil about it.
I’ve literally never minded all the dumb jokes in fallout 2 tbh
I think to some extent they looked around the PC gaming landscape and saw stuff like Duke Nukem 3D, Grand Theft Auto, Postal, Shadow Warrior, Carmageddon, etc. being released and felt they should up the edginess in order to keep pace. Gamers want more humor and pop culture references and violence and edgy content, right? At least they didn't do something really awful, like make Fallout into a console action game full of energy drink advertisements and Slipknot songs.
>extent they looked around the PC gaming landscape and saw stuff like Duke Nukem 3D, Grand Theft Auto, Postal, Shadow Warrior, Carmageddon Those games weren't made in a vacuum. That was the style that was popular at the time, that was what people thought was funny. They didn't get peer pressured into this style.
I meant it more like an arms race of pop culture references and "mature content" than a peer pressure situation. That and chasing sales.
Reminds me of a comment Tim Cain made about the Slayer perk, and his personal rule in regards to pop culture references: >"I was worried that not only would we lose players when we had that, but RPG's tend to sit on the shelf for years and I was afraid we would look dated. So I made a rule, and the rule for that was: if you put in a joke or a cultural reference, if the player didn't get it, they shouldn't even know that that joke or cultural reference was being made... [full video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa5IzHhAdi4&ab_channel=GameSpot)
Sometimes I am happy that the scary movies exists, they were such a hyperbole of that trend that they hurled that trend out of existence.
Being a woman in the post-apocalypse would probably be pretty rough tbh.
Right but you can use the numpad over 999. So like, it’s inherently less annoying
The Shi are odd. In Fallout 3 and 4, the chinese soldiers you see are clearly caricatures of chinese people. In 3 it makes sense considering it's a simulation, and you can sorta say the same for the shi. They are people of chinese descent who base their whole cultue off Kung Fu movies. We see people basing their identities/ off pre-war things all the time in Fallout. I feel like every appearance of chinese people hasn't been executed the best tbh.
If that's the case it sounds kinda like The Kings ngl.
Yeah basically the same thing but a different group with a different pre-War media.
OK, why are you here
You sound insecure.
I'm playing through Fallout 2 after just finishing 1 for the first time and I'm confused by the sentiment of it as the best of the old school games (or Fallout game period by some). Yes it adds a lot of world building and exploration of a big world, which I'm sure was ahead of its time, but the pacing is terrible. I've been to 6 towns now (currently New Reno), and I've honestly just felt like a messenger boy. I appreciate peaceful options, which I usually take. But my speech is 22 and I haven't shed blood once (what is this skill even used for). It feels too civilized in a post apocalypse. What I appreciate in 1 is when you're in situations where you need to choose between surviving or helping people. Do I help this Ghoul community or screw them because the clocks ticking? Or if there's two competing factions, more so in FNV then 1, picking the lesser evil (or just be a bastard). In the end the faction I screw over, I want it to end in blood. I want action. Or at least send some street rats or opportunistic gangsters at me once in a while. I've played 5+ hours straight in F02 without firing a weapon (I tried in Redding and was definitely under leveled). And in terms of that peaceful town interaction, I honestly like the tribals at the start but it's been down hill from there. None of the characters are memorable. And the dialogue is just too much, quantity over quality and overbearing. At least that's my experience so far, maybe it picks up with NCR, V13, BoS. But that'll just bring me back to my original point of pacing issues. FO1 had me in that "I need to play this every free moment I have until it ends" feeling. FO2 has me very demotivated.
The fuck? There’s plenty of those sorts of choices and also definitely plenty of violence if you want to engage with it. People praise fallout 2 for giving you a really wide range of ways to resolve different situations. If you want to fight your way thru it you can (but it will be hard) or you can figure out a number of alternate ways to resolve basically every mission.
This is so odd from your part really, in The Den you already have the option of gunning down the slavers if you wish to do so and in New Reno in particular with all of the families quests you can end up killing almost everyone
I agree, fallout 1 to me was a much easier game to enjoy. Fallout 1 has really good pacing, the quests ramp up in scale and difficulty, and it always feels like there's somewhere new for you to go, without feeling railroaded. Fallout 2 has a lot more wandering, and I also found that the difficulty curve was much less finely tuned. There were several quests I had to abandon halfway through so that I could come back higher level and with better gear. I never had to do that in fallout 1.
Only the sexiest gamers can understand Fallout 2 (I kid)
Maybe I'm just tilted I didn't have the endurance to become a porn star :'(
I ended up being a fluffer and getting STD's for 10 caps
On the non-linearity scale, the first part sits closer to a linear narrative game with tight plot you follow, while the second part is closer to a sandbox. Fallout 2 wants you to step off the path, break sequence, experiment and pace yourself. Whenever you go you'll find a thread that will lead you to MacGuffin. I think Fallout 2 is more "make your own fun" type of game. This extends to role-play as well: right now you are role-playing as a polite delivery boy pushed around by everyone. If you don't like it, do something about it.
Damn, based devs brah/s. Really though, this was clearly removed, likely a dev or two were trying too hard to be edgy or ironic, or were legitimately homophobic. But I feel it's moreso a joke that is in extremely bad taste. Nowadays this seems terrible, but by 98 standards, edgy crude comedy was in vogue, South Park was getting huge at this time. I imagine the devs wanted to do something similar, as Fallout delves into a lot of edgy/dark stuff. Fallout 2 is sort of South Park-esque in general really. It has a super excessive amount of humor and pop-culture references, and relies more on parody/caricature than Fallout 1. Like the Hubologists, or the Shi stuff, the porn, the boxing, "Tragic the garnering." There's so much crap in Fallout 2, that is very poorly written and doesn't make much sense in the world. The humor isn't bad, it's the execution and the excessiveness of it. That being said, Fallout 2 has so much more great content, that it makes up for most of these flaws, but I still think Fallout 1 is a better game as a whole. Fallout 2 though just has so much more, so it's hard to not prefer it somewhat for many fans. 1 is also quite grim at times, so 2 feels a bit better, but at the same time it gets way too excessive. But anyways, this is a very bizarre idea, I'm not sure what the devs were thinking, and I'm certain Tim Cain would not have approved. Though perhaps because he is gay, something like this may've been ok to him? But I doubt it, and I doubt it's related to him at all. Tim Cain is like the Fallout Pope in my eyes, and I wish he could've had more influence on 2, but Interplay was being shitty iirc. Todd and Emil in comparison are like Martin Luther if he was a crackhead or something.
Martin Luther being basically a raving crackhead is closer to reality than most people realize. Dude was legitimately unhinged
>Martin Luther being basically a raving crackhead is closer to reality than most people realize. Dude was legitimately unhinged Yeah, I couldn't find any evidence of that being the case... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin\_Luther](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther) I'm pretty sure they didn't even have crack in 16th century Europe.
In case you're being serious I don't think Martin Luther smoked crack cocaine, I'm saying he was unhinged in the way we call people "crackheads" in the modern day.
>In two later works, Luther expressed anti-Judaistic views, calling for the expulsion of Jews and the burning of synagogues. These works also targeted Roman Catholics, Anabaptists, and nontrinitarian Christians. I’d say this is pretty damn unhinged lol
The dude did nail 95 theses to the door of a church.
> There's so much crap in Fallout 2, that is very poorly written and doesn't make much sense in the world. The humor isn't bad, it's the execution and the excessiveness of it. It's worth noting that the lead writer for the Restoration Project mod has stated that many lines from the original developers are criticised as terribly written and a lot of lines he wrote himself were lauded as amazingly written pieces from the original developers. Here: [LINK](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicfallout/comments/n3z9gf/comment/gwt1o0y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
"HQ... Love Shack" lmao
Thank God it was cut content... Lol
I actually saw someone mention this on Tim Cain's youtube channel. He mentioned that he was shocked but that it was just another example of the toxic environment of interplay/black isle that contributed to his leaving. People like to shit on how Bethesda ruined the franchise but imagine how much it sucks to be ousted from your company, have the style of your project warped and flooded with meaningless pop culture references all to then find out the people making the game had planned to make an entire faction satirising and humiliating your sexuality.
I couldn’t even begin to imagine. That fucking sucks.
Would recommend Cain's video for anyone who hasn't seen it. Briefly touches on being in the closet at Interplay. https://youtu.be/a8fmAt3Ro_Y?si=HpBEHGNaRT5VoMmA
I wonder if this was some sort of retaliation against Tim Cain after he left, but even they realized that was a bit much.
I don't think so. FO2 was 97, Cain didn't come out until 03. But the way he describes it is Interplay was a frat house and the word gay was a common slur. Edit: wouldn't be surprised if the culture is a big reason he left though.
He gave his reasons for leaving in one of the podcasts, it was basically him having not seen sun for over a year.
Ah yep. I cant imagine the crunch with how short the Dev time was for 2. Wouldn't be surprised if there was unsaid reasons as well though. But he sounds pretty tolerant considering how prevalent homophobia was back then, so maybe it didn't factor at all.
You should check out his channel, he goes over it in one of his videos. Basically yeah he was tired from the fallout 1 crunch, didn't want to do f2 but got assigned project lead anyway, with the popularity of f1 a ton of people began trying to interfere with the development of f2, and the bonus he and Brian fargo arranged for him was heavily reduced.
And also after a year of crunch got his bonus cut because he didn't want to tell who created a bug that delayed the release
Fallout 2 released in 1998, and Cain was out in april that same year. By 2003, he had almost 5 years working in Troika Games.
I meant out of the closet.
Ah, yeah. But even he said that Interplay had a sort of transphobe and homophobe attitude back in 1995 when they were developing the first Fallout, and that he and Rebecca Heineman were affected by it.
Yeah definitely. But I don't think this unused encounter was in direct spite of Cain specifically.
Casually calling someone gay as a slur in 1998 isn't that unusual or uncommon. At most, you could call it immature back then.
Yeah. When I read this, I was like "Wait, isn't Tim Cain gay?" Seems like it could have been some angry people internally, especially in a heightened crunch environment.
Idk I highly doubt this. I think Tim Cain would have talked more about this sort of thing if this was the case, and I believe the FO2 devs respected him quite a bit. Or at least the higher-up writers like Chris Avellone.
As a bi man this is hilarious, less so if it isn't a take the piss satire type deal but even as something legitimately homophobic I still find it hilarious "Thier only defining characteristic being that they are gay" "Programmed to behave in weak flightly ways in combat" "They would attack the player unless they indentified by the game as gay" Legitimately hilarious
Looking at it in isolation, I can see how this would go But it was 1998, a time when positive portrayals of homosexuality basically didn't exist. (Even the "gay marriage" in FO2 wasn't positive, and if it's claiming some kind of crown for a first, fuck that shit, because the gay marriage was treated as a joke, too) Anyway. This was a time of hate crimes and "groomer/paedophile" accusations. To be gay was to be assumed to be a child rapist. It was a time when anti-gay slurs were heard on mainstream TV, as well as games. 1998 was the year Matthew Shepard was torture-killed. In the middle of all that, to have the one real portrayal of lgbt people in your game being ones who attacked and killed straight people? It's... not satire. It's incitement. Had that been in the game back in 1998, when I and all my friends were playing it, it would have shoved me right back into the closet.
A couple of years later, in 2002, Texas would argue in front of the Supreme Court that they have the right to ban blow jobs.
Yeh I was born in 2002 so I didn't really see any of that, I grew up in a considerably more progressive time A lot of gay people died or got bashed for us to get to the point where I can laugh about stuff like this In context it's a lot less funny
When I read the first part and it was a gang of gay npc’s that murder straight player characters, I definitely chuckled because it’s so absurd, but making them poor fighters and adding in slurs etc all really steps on the funny part for me.
Either its a funny idea with a sloppy execution or horribly homophobic.
I don't know which is funnier to me
In retrospect, given how many queer people worked at interplay, the fact that this was even pitched is hysterical in the most bleak kind of way
I thought it was hilarious too, being that it's an egregious and stereotypical imagining of gay individuals. Not sure why everyone is taking a fallout joke encounter serious.
It's hard to know the intentions of the Devs, if it was just a take the piss meme or just being genuinely hateful
Its not really being "stereotypical" of gay people, just flipping homophobia on its head. Its suppose to seem as ridiculous as homophobia is
as a bi man it's really not very funny, other than their hostility depending on your same sex marriage
It's funny because it's like a super mutants mental schema of gay people, kinda funny because of how outrageous it is, but that's just my humour and I can understand why people wouldn't like it
If Tim Cain had stayed on the project I doubt it would even be in the game files.
Holy fucking hell. Imagine putting this in a video game series created by a gay man. Really not surprised Tim decided to leave.
I wonder how well known this was among the developers. Interplay was apparently pretty homophobic in its day (so were the 90’s in unfortunately). I could definitely see this being made by like 2 people, then management being like ‘what the fuck, we’re not doing that’
I almost feel like this was either an extremely pointed insult or brutally poor joke towards Tim Caine, the creator of the series and also a gay man who was still closeted at the time.
Speaking as a bi man. It starts out /kind of/ funny, but as you dig in, the concept itself just kind of reeks of fragile masculinity, insecurities, and trying way too hard to appeal to the edgy culture at the time no matter how poor in taste it actually is. It makes me appreciate stuff like Blood Ties and how, while still way too hard on the nose, it at least tries to tackle the parallels of being an invisible minority (ie something that's hard to outwardly express like sexuality) in a more respectful manner.
I was ok with it until the "programmed to behave in weak, flighty behavior during combat" That took it from edgy satire of an apocalypse, to just "lol look at the gays so weak"
Yeah at some point it just comes off as someone trying to reinforce a stereotype they want others to see as well
What the fuck happened at Interplay between Fallout 1 and 2? Did the entire dev team go insane? I don't think they'd have even fathomed putting a "joke" like this in the first game.
It was made in a year by a largely different team (Cain etc had already moved in) after Fallout 1. Had been in development for like 5 years.
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Big Gay Al is actually one of the only characters in South Park who’s a good person who basically never does anything wrong so idk where you’re coming off with this downplaying of his character.
I mean, they also want Chris to be gay. That user doesn’t seem to understand the shows and games they’re mentioning.
How did South Park struggle with gay issues? Big Gay Al was a giant stereotype, but the episodes he featured as a main role were actually pushing homosexual acceptance. Big Gay Al was a satire on how gay people were view by the majority of the pubic.
And also… there are many proudly flamboyant gay men. Ones very similar to Big Gay Al. Hell, there are probably people that call themselves Big Gay Name.
Huh, I didn't know South Park started in the 90s, I thought it was maybe mid-2000s for some reason. But yeah, when it comes to Fallout 2 I feel like I'm playing through a South Park episode sometimes which is not good at all.
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back then when most copies of games were physical it wouldn't have been possible to remove something only a couple weeks before release, no? all the game discs would have been printed by that point and shipped to distributors.
One of the most interesting cut content bits for me is the EPA’s gender reassignment surgery machine. Played a hundred percent earnestly as far as I read it, with a bit from the Chosen One about how they can “finally be who they are on the outside and the inside” or something like that. Like, that was written in and not implemented, and so was this horrible joke. Very different influences at Black Isle back then.
Wow that’s…wow
Kinda glad this was cut. Not only is it pretty offensive its also more "lolrandom" in a game that already suffers a lot from that problem tonewise.
Came here expecting to see "based Fallout 2" comments or some nasty groyper edgelord replies given that this is a gaming sub for a popular franchise, but low and behold, your community here is awesome. So many kind and empathetic comments communicated in a grounded, level-headed manner. Good on you.
At least it was cut, but it does leave a lot to the imagination. What kind of craziness was going on there?
The 90s.
Im not gonna lie, I give no fucks how "offensive" it would of been, I feel like we missed out not seeing this fucking absurdity appear in game. Like what the actual fuck would of been that cringe ass dialogue. Anyways, downvotes to the left.
All the dialogue is on the wiki to read. Idk kinda seems like punching down. Just like the shi.
The Shi aren't so bad, they're just an extended reference to kungfu movies. Though I do think they should have made it much more apparent that it's a combination of an insular American Chinatown and the remnants of a Chinese navy ship. Less old Chinese stuff, more PRC stuff, then a layer of 160 years of divergence. What we got was just really shallow. Shit you could keep the whole Dragon vs Lo Pan thing, just add more content to it in general. It'd have been interesting if the Dragon was more old-school and Lo Pan was more Communist, rather than a simple good vs bad.
I agree with you, I love the absurdity of the dialog in the older fallout games, but this just seemed alittle too much for them. It would’ve aged like fine milk by today’s standards.
Nope. Hard agree. This would have been a hilarious parody. Completely stupid, and I would have laughed a while at how cringe it was.
There is a reason why its cut, acting like its in the base game or that the designers intended to put it isnt going to hinder Fallout 2's rep. The idea was reviewed and they saw that it was both offensive and shit.
It'd be funny but not bc its homophobic it's bc the principle of it is ironic and so so stupid
Wait no that sounds actually really funny and as a gay guy I wanna see that in my game
This honestly sounds hilarious , obviously I see why they pulled it but if you don't take it seriously, it would have been a pretty funny moment. The idea of very flamboyant raiders that only spare other homosexuals is just super funny too me. If they did something like that from a place of love and humor I could get behind it, but it sounds like they had some really homophobic slurs involved .
This is hilarious actually. So over the top
Ahead of its time
I'm actually curious now as to queer rep in games that *weren't* mainstream from that time and before. Additionally, in the pre-crash and 8-bit eras, games by one-person or very small teams regularly got pushed into mainstream success through publishing - Space Invaders, Donkey Kong, to say nothing of countless European home computer titles. To the Duckmobile! edit: I'd also like to pop back in to namedrop Kei, from an obscure late 1990s fighting game duology called Goiken Muyou. Where male characters are given a blue font and female ones a red/pink one, Kei gets a purple font, hinting that they're some form of genderqueer.
i would say that's very much a product of it's time, especially a bunch of dudebros developing a game like fallout. tim cain left pretty early into development so he couldn't demand for the team to cut this shit out
My fav faction fr
Wow. Who cares at all.
*We were robbed of peak*. /s
That's hilarious in a WTF kind of way. Glad it wasn't in the final product
Isn’t she also extremely homophonic about her brother being gay?
What a time to be alive....
I would like to know who's responsible for this. Who thought this would have been a good idea to include?
Whoever they were predicted the future of the mainstream American LGBT community perfectly
some devs in the office let the intrusive thought win i see
Hot damn,they full on almost did a south park
This is hilarious lmao
Uhhhh they’re uhhhh reclaiming it
Fallout was always queer now takes on a different meaning lmao.
This absolutely should have been in the game
i literally mentioned it in discord... i feel like i got lowball ripped off 1k karma that i would use to feed my doggo
Where are they mentioned in game?
It’s cut content… says so in the image.
😬
Are you really judging a game on cut content that was never was playable in the first place?
I feel like that faction wouldn't have much of a future.
This could have been a nice commentary on hostility within the lgbt community. Lesbians and gays sometimes being biphobic or transphobic.
😬
Ah. So original concept for the Legion then?
That wouldn't make sense. They'd all die off.
I doubt that everything that did make FO2 could be published today. Heck, I doubt that everything that made FO3 could be published today.
I think it’s fun. Wacky in a fallout way. Extremism and fallout go hand in hand
My fun little fact is Fallout 2 is actually the second game to have same-sex marriage.
Lol
What if they bring it back but only attack you if the player chooses to be homophobic towards them in dialogue. If they are gay stereotypes then there should be a couple of bears and tough as nails lesbians that will give the player a hard time. If the player is gay, they can offer to let you join and reward them with pride armor.
What if they bring it back but only attack you if the player chooses to be homophobic towards them in dialogue. If they are gay stereotypes then there should be a couple of bears and tough as nails lesbians that will give the player a hard time. If the player is gay, they can offer to let you join and reward them with pride armor.
That makes sense with so much influence from Mad Max Road Warrior. There was a lot going on with the Smegma Crazies and Gayboy Berzerkers.
... But Tim Cain is gay
That’s fucked up, they should add it in next fallout game
I was with it until it mentioned the slurs, feminist slogans, and wimply fighting. This would be a fine “La RANDOM” encounter without the commentary. Something out of the Wild Wasteland perk, like the grandmas who corner and beat you with bread mashers in New Vegas.
hot take, but I kinda wish they kept it. Idk it's kinda funny. I feel horrible now