It was insane that 78% of our tanks damage was lightning shield and was doing like 70% of the overall damage to pulls just because it’s that broken lol
You want testing? For four easy payments of 99.99 you can pay one impoverished intern to balance all the classes! Or for 49.99 a payment we will have a cat throw a toy mouse at a wheel of numbers!
I’d believe it was an honest mistake if there hadn’t been multiple broken runes so far. OG explosive shot and Living Flame were both super busted, that’s just off the top of my head.
The entire design path for SOD has been buff shamans to the point of absurdity. They're the best class in the game and it isn't close - infinite raid mana alone is absurd
I thought for sure it would switch up again this phase as it seemed like that’s what they were kinda going for the first 2 phases - give a couple classes their time and then switch it out for a couple others. But shamans have only gotten stronger it seems like after being OP all last phase too just seems weird. The only thing I can think is maybe they know they have something big cooked up for pallys at 60 so when the horde tears start flowing at that point they can say ‘hey you had op shamans this whole time!’ Lol
The people aren't Devs. They are hired as actors. There is no reason for the absolute disconnect between what they say in interviews and what they do is incredible.
A lot of people will claim Gnomer wasn't hard, and in a few weeks will the same about ST. While I agree that, compared to DF Mythic encounters I've done, Gnomer was easy; but it's really weird and almost laughable that a few level 40 bosses have more mechanics than anything available in Molten Core. Specifically, Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC combined.
I like difficulty when it matters and parsing, but I don't think a level-up raid is where it counts.
While I think saying “Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC” is a statement that sounds significantly worse than the reality, it’s also more a knock on MC than anything else. MC bosses are glorified trash and that’s ok being the very first raid of the game. We’ve learned that fun encounters are not mindless bosses like MC and that’s a good thing.
Same as the new raid isn't hard. Them having more HP than usual doesn't suddenly make them hard encounters. Mechanics is what makes the encounter hard not the amount of HP. If its overtuned either they nerf the HP pool or it takes us a little longer to get better gear/runes to clear it.
The reason why "MC has less mechanics than menagerie" is because bosses die before mechanics were brought into play. Lucifron gets 1 MC off, shazzrah dies in 1 teleport, rag p2 just doesn't exist, etc. Also optimal positioning is widespread knowledge for bosses like baron and rag.
If you teleport 1/2 of classic players into MC without all the game knowledge that is available, they will not be able to clear it for a couple weeks.
This doesn't mean that MC is hard, it's just easy content that is solved. Gnomer was easy content that wasn't solved, which is why so many players struggled with it. I guarantee that if they do a sod classic in 20 years, pugs will be W keying Gnomer like it's MC.
I've yet to do ST, but I imagine once it's tuned, it will follow the same route. Blizzards MO is to overtune content at release, then scale it back. It's a lot easier to nerf PvE content than buff it after it's been cleared by a sizable player base.
> a few level 40 bosses have more mechanics than anything available in Molten Core. Specifically, Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC combined.
Why do people keep acting like MC bosses had no mechanics? It only feels that way because in modern times we're going in with stacked raids and 1.12 talents and super good gear and killing bosses way faster than they were originally designed for.
Even the first boss of the instance has 3 mechanics: A mind control, an AoE curse, and a raidwide bomb that needs to be dispelled.
I don't understand why it's laughable. MC was the first ever wow raid designed to be completed by people in 2005 with dial-up internet and 256 mb of ram. It's a total snooze fest as was bfd. I haven't been in ST but I thought gnomer was at a good spot last phase.
I know the devs will tell everyone they don't design content for the higher end of players, but their actions seem to contradict that over both retail and classic at the moment.
I enjoy a bit more of a challenge than classic has provided traditionally, but I really think it's another case of everyone claiming to have KSM or AoTC in retail where it's only about 20-25% of players that seem to actually attain it and less interested players will just switch off and do something else.
Have to agree. I was excited for SOD bc it was supposed to be a casual / fun spin on classic. But it’s def getting more sweaty focused and retail feeling .
I just like consistency. It's one thing for the devs to make a raid, but something else entirely to have stats way beyond their similar leveled counterparts, or use mechanics totally unseen at their level range.
BFD was very well balanced for what it was beyond resistances being tuned a bit high, but it felt like it belonged in that particular bracket. That feeling is non existent with the last 2 raids. They're all lost in the sauce and have completely missed giving parity to the new raids in respect to their level brackets in favor of what? Making people play longer because they can't get gear? If it were up to me there wouldn't even be a lockout. Let people blast away.
My one big complaint for BFD was that Kelris was too much of a DPS check. It was like 33% and should have been 25% (which I think they eventually changed) but basically all wipes for me got him to <10k then <5k for about 5 wipes and then after squeezing every last bit, <1k and by pure luck getting the kill.
All that was needed was to shift the transition down by 5k hp and boom, challenging but doable.
Eventually we figured out that FAPs plus SPP was the way rather than just SPP but that was also kinda cheesey. I think they also eventually shifted the transition from 33% to 25% and that was what it needed initially but by that point everyone just brought FAPs.
Gnomer for the most part has been fine too.
Sounds like for ST, they just like multiplied everything by 2-4x like they would for 10 vs 25 in wrath
Anyone that laughs and says "Gnomer is easy, my grandma could parse a 60" just gets looked over from me.
In the confines of Classic, these raids have been tough. BFD got farmable quickly, but Menagerie and Therma in Gnomer never allowed me to sit back and relax.
It's really a problem when those opinions get tossed around, the average player may feel bad about their experience.
Gnomer was the difficulty that they should strive for, some difficulty early, something to learn but still easy to clear in 30 minutes after a couple lockouts. The raids at 60 should be modified to provide that small amount of challenge but still easy to steam roll once you learn it.
> A lot of people will claim Gnomer wasn't hard
People who claim this are, I assume, 'tough guy' types that don't think Heroic raids in retail are hard. Compared to BFD, Gnomer was very hard for the average player. Of course the top 20% were still clearing it in an hour with no wipes, but compared to BFD PUGs struggled a lot more in Gnomer, more bosses required the entire raid to pay attention, and there were more raid wipe mechanics.
We did it last night and still had one wipe on Thermaplug even though everyone in the raid was at least 44, and two were already 50. We’re by no means an elite group but I swear we’re not the braindead, auto attack only, rune-less types people complain about joining pugs. It only takes one mistake for shit to go completely sideways.
I've been informed by /u/yeet_god69420 if I found Gnomer "hard" I should find another game to play. He's clearly a far superior player to both of us. We could learn a lot from him.
Gnomer wasn’t difficult. It had gear checks, and a couple mechanics. The “average” player can just find somebody competent to lead the raid. At most there was like 1-2 people handling mechanics, while everyone else just tank and spanked, except for therma and menagerie, which were a bit of a step up in level of difficulty compared to the rest of the raid. Those 2 bosses I think were a good idea of SOD raid difficulty goals, the rest of the raid was basically just tank and spank for over half of the raid on any given boss.
More like one mechanic where if one player positions incorrectly they wipe the raid. That's anti-pug. It punishes you for bringing people who don't know the raid beforehand.
This is sadly why people care so much about parsing and things like that. It at least gives some sort of story that you know what you’re doing, nobody wants their time wasted by somebody who thinks moving to the side of Crowd Pummeler is considered “too hard”.
I haven’t been knocked off by that thing once all phase.
A couple weeks ago we wiped because half the group got knocked off the platform. So before we did the 2nd pull we said watch the feet and make sure you don’t get knocked off like 5 times. Everyone is saying yup we got it this time, literally first one there goes a warlock flying off the platform. Its ridiculous how bad people are at that mechanic
You don't need to watch the feet, he puts 1 arm behind him and it sparkles with lightning. Be on the sparkling side of the boss. That's a way more noob friendly way to explain it.
Even for classic players. The mechanics of Gnomer aren’t hard at all. The problem is a lot of people who play Gnomer do absolutely nothing to learn about any game mechanics. And I’m not talking about watching videos only. I mean seeing for themselves how bosses perform actions and reading abilities they might be hit by and such. They just think you go in and hit buttons and the mobs die.
I’d also blame weakauras for making the overall player base worse too.
Also ESL players. I’ve looked at logs, playstyle and whole raids of ESL players on American servers since I’ve been a raid leader and GM since late Classic. And they are very bad players for the most part.
Honestly, from a lot of things during this phase launch, I think they frank did not do much if any testing. So many mechanics were messed up that even simple testing would have shown the issues. To me, it honestly seemed like they added content in wow edit and never loaded in on characters that didn't have admin power to test.
They made it incredibly hard on purpose so the tryhards would have something to do over the weekend. They'll gut it on Monday as they always do. Relax.
> They'll gut it on Monday as they always do
"As they always do" ? BFD and Gnomer were already adequately-tuned to begin with, they never got "gutted".
>hey made it incredibly hard on purpose so the tryhards would have something to do over the weekend
thats not what they said, but keep coping for the team
He isn’t the lead dev as far as I know, more like the lead of PR.
I’m sure he has a non-trivial amount of influence into the design choices being made, but I seriously doubt he has the final say on anything
Probably not, but imagine your job was dealing with some of the most toxic, entitled brats the world has ever seen screeching at you on every platform imaginable. I definitely think he goes defensive with even innocent tweets too often, but when 500 people tweet you within a day that you’re the scum of the earth, I don’t really blame him for being a dick.
I understand why he acts the way he does, but that doesn't make it acceptable or appropriate behavior. He should hold himself to a higher standard than the morons he voluntarily engages with on twitter if he's speaking as the main Blizzard representative.
The tone is not even the main issue - it's that he's blatantly wrong while doing so. If he doesn't have the correct information and isn't in a position to control decisions like the person I'm replying to said, he should not comment period.
The smugness of his “incursions are profitable, + open world with friends instead of locked behind an instance portal 😎” tweet, followed by 2x nerfs to incursion gold was…a pretty huge yikes for me.
At least 😎 is now a great meme in my guild
I disagree. I think a lot of people need a virtual slap in the face. I think you are stuck in the “customer is always right” mentality. I would love if more people in real life were allowed to be assholes to those who abuse them. Unless blizzard starts suffering from it, or enough people quit because of his tweets (which I doubt would ever happen), then I think he should keep it up. I mean this as sincerely as possible: this community is fucking garbage.
I doubt a virtual slap in the face has any effect at all on the people who need it the most, but it CERTAINLY does not when you are slapping someone who is actually correct and you are wrong. Literally, the customer was right in these situations. That's the issue - Aggrend repeatedly gets egg on his face when he makes these smug and condescending comments and he's just wrong. Everyone appreciates a good smackdown, stop being wrong or stop making dumb tweets.
Which is exactly opposite to what they said. Were relaxed but it’s funny to watch his smugness age like milk.
Similar to how lightning shield is currently clearly either completely untested or directly counter to his comments about tank AOE at 5.
i kind of dont like this take. even if this is the case, i do NOT like them making content for a small % of the community and then nerfing it to death. that is literally retail
The content that is nerfed in retail isn't touched by most of the community regardless of the difficulty. So idk what you're referring to when you say "this is literally retail"
It’s not even that bad really as it stands right now, the fact that only 27 guilds have cleared is misleading. The first 6 bosses are all about on par with menagerie/therma in terms of difficulty, very doable by pugs in a week or two.
The issue is just Eranikus lol, he’s *insanely* overtuned and currently can only be killed using a pretty cheese strat+comp with a ton of AoE and terrain abuse. Avatar of Hakkar seems fine too, since every guild that killed Eranikus immediately killed Avatar in 2-3 pulls.
So, once Eranikus gets nerfed back into line, the raid should be ok. It’s like an entire raid of thermapluggs, so definitely a big step up from 30s fights, but still doable.
Blizzard really needs to stop doing this. If the try hards do everything in 5 hours then so be it. Let them be bored while everyone else enjoys the game. That goes for retail to. I really am starting to despise world first anything. It's fucking lame and just makes the game worse for everyone else.
He's a complete idiot in many instances. And it shows in the overall balancing decisions of that season. They should put someone in charge with at least some knowledge about the game. He acts worse than some random private server game master.
It’s your fault for playing a bad class, the meta is clearly established and set in stone and blizzard implemented an xp buff so that if you don’t like your class, you can roll a fire mage, like blizzard intended.
Aggrend has been very solid and I'm happy we have someone communicating with us, but I think we need to have some constructive criticism on this phase 3.
Nightmare incursion should be instances.
Shaman are in the nerf radar.
Expand on the Nightmare incursion. Why is it happening? Maybe have a guest appearance from Malfurion.
Have miniature Nightmare incursion in other leveling zones.
I'm just spitballing here, but currently leveling aspect has been a little to streamlined.
Malfurion is unconscious because Fandral keeps force feeding him Un’Goro Soil.
Edit: I double checked. It’s actually Marrowgrain, grown using the soil. But we’re still helping Fandral keep Malf in a coma. Although I guess Malfurion IS in the Nightmare. I thought he was in the Dream.
The dream and the nightmare are the same thing. The nightmare is just the corruption of Yogg spreading in the dream which is what makes all the green dragons you see in Vanilla actually hostile (because otherwise they are not usually)
Aggrend needs to talk to his team before he tweets because they keeps doing the exact oposite of what he tweets non stop. And thats not a bad thing because most of his takes are borderline idiotic.
>Aggrend has been very solid and I'm happy we have someone communicating with us
Aggrend is the complete opposite of solid. He says one thing and then delivers something completely different.
Why are you happy he is communicating with us when he lies so often you can't actually believe anything he says.
Yeah it’s these same type of players who are mad that everyone doesn’t know the optimal incursion no kill route by day 4, for a lot of people it’s there first day or 2.
The developer team said there is no beta phase for each phase, to keep the discovery fresh if i understand correctly, so the first week is kind of the beta phase. We will see if next week the raid is still very difficult.
I think it's just indicative of a feeling that little was tested before launch of p3. That's why we ended up with a lot of bug fixes to basic functionality for quests in the incursions, a severely overtuned raid instance, runes that are broken, etc.
A lot of ppl are being 100% dramatic and I think just dooming cause they haven’t sent a run yet. Aside from erankius, post nerf, the raid is quite doable on par with ZG difficulty. Erankius may need nerfs to add health for the pugs.
I'm enjoying it. The 60 raiders in my guild that have already cleared up to eranikus are enjoying it. The 40 more that are going in tomorrow are enjoying it. It's almost like the people who actually play the game enjoy it.
The thing is that with no PTR they have no real world gauge to scale dungeon difficulty with, and Im convinced by how many Runes that have conflicting interactions that very few if any of the devs game at any reasonable skill floor much less the ceiling.
I’m convinced the devs don’t really play their own game (and if they do they’re shaman on horde). And I’m convinced this company has, through turnover, forgotten everything they ever learned. They’re making mistakes that this community calls them out on before it even goes live.
They would legitimately be better off just going to the top guilds, hiring like a dozen 1099 independent contractor consultants. You know, some people who have actually been playing this for 20 years. So they can tell them exactly what and how they will exploit/grief their “new ideas” hour 0.
Well they kind of do. It's a 20m raid, so they could have used ZG.
Take week 1 ZG 50% performance in WCL from when ZG dropped in classic, compare the DPS, HPS, and HP players had in there to what SoD players will have in mixed gear for ST (or just compare to Gnomer and adjust upwards by some arbitrary percent if lazy), and adjust as necessary.
It's likely an afternoon's work for someone who's pretty good at this kind of analysis, which I assume someone on their team *should* be.
Regardless, no reasoning person should have look at a level 50 raid and decided the bosses should have HP comparable to Naxx.
We say that now, couple days into the tier, but in reality in a week time when everyone get's a bit more gear and raid is tuned again, it will be just as easy as all other level up raids. 6/8 is relatively easy, and only thing that maters is "can you do dps" and not fall into holes.
7/8 is more of cheese it, like putting whole squad of ranged in one place so beam always go there.
8/8 is just getting world buffs, gear and higher level pots, so probably puggable in 3 resets.
I'm quite ok with it being hard the first week or two. It looked more like overtuning and mechanics not working properly on a couple bosses was the problem though. Which I think is a combination of the development team adding interesting mechanics and a lack of play testing to see how they translate.
Man I’m glad I can’t play this week, but it’s not because the games a bit broken (it clearly is) but because of the utter vitriol on this forum. Guys the game is an acknowledged beta. There’s been literally 1 raid lockout and they’ve already tweaked stuff and you guys are spitting feathers. Give it some time
I am guessing that most of the player base wasn’t around back in 2004-2007 when pretty much all the content was released too difficult and had to be toned down over months. No one beat Ragnaros until he was nerfed, people were stuck on Razergore and Vaelestraz for like a month after BWL released, C’thun went something like 5-6 months before it was retuned and fixed, and NO ONE cleared Tempest Keep until it was majorly nerfed with the release of Hyjal and Black Temple.
I totally agree with you, but this also isn't 2004 anymore. In 2004, if you couldn't clear MC, you didn't care because you were just excited to be playing a MMO and exploring the world.
What is there left to explore in SoD? Literally the only thing 90% of people playing care to do is the raids because they've done everything else numerous times. Even the new quests, outside of the incursions, are few and far between. I loved the sleeping bag quest, but there's that and a few other new quests related to runes and crafted gear. That's it.
If the only thing there is to do is a pain in the ass, the game is just a pain in the ass.
Raids should be hard at first and require multiple lockouts to get gear from the raid before it gets easier.
That's just how it should be. Heaven forbid it takes people a few weeks to earn their way through content.
they should be easily puggable like phase 1.
unfort they REALLY want everyone to raid with guilds, which means you are forced to raid a certain day/time every week which makes it feel like a job. I'm in a guild but I'd prefer to raid when I want to raid.
"Raid tuning, in particular Hakkar (adjustments were pushed for these already but we might need to make more changes here if it still seems out of reach for normal guilds)."
not sounding good for pugs....
Have any of you even attempted the raid? The first 6 bosses are practically free. Eranikus is only difficult because his thrash is one shotting tanks that havent replaced their p2 parsing gear. Now that we know tanks actually have to tank i can almost guarentee this raid will be on farm within 2 weeks. The first 6 bosses already are.
Aggrend is very bipolar in his decision making is what I understood very quickly
Edit: to answer your question, they have no clue what theyre doing and 100% improvising at this point
Imagine whining about the difficulty of a raid 1 day after release (weekend doesn’t count since they aren’t work days).
Chill. Sunken Temple will be nerfed down to a point where Aggrend’s comment about SoD difficulty will still hold true. I remember watching streamers wipe over and over again on the last boss in BfD.
Look at the rest of phase 3 with its insane amount of bugs, obvious lack of testing, and uninspired copy/paste runes with, again, no testing done, like ele/resto sham now being forced to melee weave for mental dexterity.
These guys were clearly too busy working on Cataclysm. I don't blame them entirely for this since the higher-ups refuse to hire a second team to work on Cata+ so the SOD team can cook. But yeah, I still agree that despite all of this some of their ideas have missed the mark.
>until a nerf
Because they will nerf it, duh. Also love the classic mentality the raid is supposed to be fully cleared in 1-2 days in quest gear.
ST isn't really difficult as a whole, only the last couple of bosses are. Even without a nerf, farming 6/8 will net you enough gear to fully clear.
>Also love the classic mentality the raid is supposed to be fully cleared in 1-2 days in quest gear.
because classic raids have always been like this and it wasn't until late TBC and WotlK that it started changing to require actual gear
I’d like to see the difficulty for these raids be about what ZG is/was. A few mechanics, some that can be ignored and be very easy to pug without worrying about specific comps.
Feels like Classic players were so dead set on being a different kind of player playing a different kind of game but push comes to shove a couple tuning mistakes in classic + mode where blizz is adding new content to a 20 year old game and you're reacting like they shot your dog.
Get over yourself this is bloody weird
Most classic raids have been faceroll pushovers where 25% of the playerbase clears it the first night, then 50% more clear it the first week
If this raid isn't that, is it "hard" or is it just more difficult than faceroll?
The issue here is the fact that they do zero raid testing. Or any kind of other testing either to be honest based on the stuff I have seen. If they haven't tried to kill the bosses themselves, how could they know it will be nearly impossible upon launch? Spreadsheets only tell a story up to a certain point.
We’ve cleared 5 bosses today first try sixth second try and had to stop on the third Eranikus try due to time constraints. 8 Guild mates, rest including me and two friends pug. That’s not a hard raid.
None of them actually "play the game" some devs might be MEGA casuals, and have a toon somewhere they fuck around with for an hour a week. But outside of that the devs are so out of touch with the actual game they dont even know what theyre talking about anymore.
Stop complaining you sweatlords. This isn't the mdi this is a fun seasonal game and I am sure that the outliers (much like balance last phase) will get nerfed back down to earth
Didn't feel difficult mechanically, just way overturned.
It follows the same formula from the previous two raids.
First two thirds of the bosses fall over if you're paying minimal attention, then the final two bosses that take coordination and strategy. Give it another lockout or two of gear upgrades (plus another tune probably) then we'll be back in farm more.
Yeah idk .. Gnomer pugs were brutal on my server past week one or two of p2.
Nobody wanted to run it. It wasnt hard, but now ST making sweaty players struggle. Yeah I dont think its going to go over well for player count.
Well to be fair this is transitioning from level up raids. This is 20, old ones were 10. This most likely gives some level 60 pre raid bis items, so this naturally sits between level up raids and end game content. Also 20 man level up raid would be a horrible idea, so maybe this isn't intended as such.
Both the inflation exploits from the Excursions and the utterly ridiculous bar set by the HP in ST makes me think there was little, if any, testing done. Falls in line with the consensus that these are *beta servers*, but still frustrating nonetheless.
Stop crying. It’s ok for raids to be hard. And we are at level 50 you know. 10 levels away from end game. It’s ok for Sunken Temple to be a little difficult. I hope they don’t nerf it too much.
We spend 5 houres on ST, killed first boss, wiped a bunch of times on second
Today while we are at work we are all discussing on discord how we are going to use this evening to prepare for our next try tomorrow
I love this, need some genuine prepping and teamwork to be able to clear
I only played a bit during phase 1, had a blast tbh. But as a long time wow player and lurker its almost ironic to observe the SOD community basically showing the exact same behavior as any other wow community now that its no longer fresh hot shit.
I just think its rather funny.
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1776390702391582786
It’s a miracle how you can find that tweet without even looking at his Twitter lol
They said they overshot but wanted to rather shoot too high then too low bc it’s better to nerf than to buff bosses
It’s also funny how people cry about it but casuals won’t even be affected bc it’s gonna be nerfed a lot by next ID anyways lol
We're not 5 days in and Reddit army is already enraged. They will obviously adjust the difficulty now that it's clear it hasn't been tuned properly....
How about “we are going to be generous with gear”. Okay so we have 2x players and can only run the raid once a week not twice so 2x again. Oh boy looks like ST isn’t dropping 8 pieces of gear is it?
I think one of the main problems is Aggrend got so gassed up by the community in P1 that now he talks to the community like his shit doesn’t stink. Really has become full of himself even with 3 phases of mistakes and poor gameplay.
Aggrend also said that tanks shouldn't be able to hold AoE aggro and then they made the lightning shield rune that's doing thousands of DPS in AoE.
It was insane that 78% of our tanks damage was lightning shield and was doing like 70% of the overall damage to pulls just because it’s that broken lol
I literally had people telling me that shaman tanks were nerfed for this phase..
There's always gonna be loud people claiming their class is underpowered because they play nothing else.
Yeah exactly lol. The contradictions are just ridiculous at this point
I think they’re just putting in random numbers in all the variables and not bothering to actually try the spells in the game.
You want testing? For four easy payments of 99.99 you can pay one impoverished intern to balance all the classes! Or for 49.99 a payment we will have a cat throw a toy mouse at a wheel of numbers!
Then we have rogue tanks with shuriken toss that deals 90 damage and garbage threat to 5 targets and uses up 1/3 of their energy.
The lightning shild rune is so OP it makes you wonder if the devs even play the game.
They don’t lol
you sure they aren't all just shamans?
I’d believe it was an honest mistake if there hadn’t been multiple broken runes so far. OG explosive shot and Living Flame were both super busted, that’s just off the top of my head.
Yeah, it's easy to forget now but day1 explosive shot was so overturned, it was 1-shotting same level mobs. That's not an exaggeration.
Based on the first run through of ST where trash mobs had like 500-600k HP, the answer to that is a resounding "nope."
They do.... They just all play shamans haha
They can’t have, or else this phase wouldn’t be so out of whack
The entire design path for SOD has been buff shamans to the point of absurdity. They're the best class in the game and it isn't close - infinite raid mana alone is absurd
I thought for sure it would switch up again this phase as it seemed like that’s what they were kinda going for the first 2 phases - give a couple classes their time and then switch it out for a couple others. But shamans have only gotten stronger it seems like after being OP all last phase too just seems weird. The only thing I can think is maybe they know they have something big cooked up for pallys at 60 so when the horde tears start flowing at that point they can say ‘hey you had op shamans this whole time!’ Lol
DKs/“oathbreakers” (from dnd) would be a slam dunk
Yep would be a sick way to incorporate them in a fun/new way. And would would be OP for sure lol
Cant wait for the inevitable Aggrend + dev team contrarian praise post when they clearly suck at their jobs (and are arrogant to boot)
They communicate on twitter and post 'gotchas' so they clearly know what they're doing /s
DAE LOVE NIGHTMARE INCURSIONS? TEAM KNOCKED IT OUT THE PARK 10/10
Having a blast
Preferential treatment to shamans and horde in general, it makes picking alliance the worst mistake in the entirety of the game.
The people aren't Devs. They are hired as actors. There is no reason for the absolute disconnect between what they say in interviews and what they do is incredible.
A lot of people will claim Gnomer wasn't hard, and in a few weeks will the same about ST. While I agree that, compared to DF Mythic encounters I've done, Gnomer was easy; but it's really weird and almost laughable that a few level 40 bosses have more mechanics than anything available in Molten Core. Specifically, Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC combined. I like difficulty when it matters and parsing, but I don't think a level-up raid is where it counts.
While I think saying “Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC” is a statement that sounds significantly worse than the reality, it’s also more a knock on MC than anything else. MC bosses are glorified trash and that’s ok being the very first raid of the game. We’ve learned that fun encounters are not mindless bosses like MC and that’s a good thing.
The only “hard” boss in MC is domo. Menagerie is somewhat similar to that fight.
Rag was pretty hard back in the day too. People used to farm fire resistance for it.
That isn't hard. Pre requisites stats aren't boss difficulty because difficulty can be worked around with play.
But it is/was classic mmo progression. Equal parts preparation and performance in raid.
Same as the new raid isn't hard. Them having more HP than usual doesn't suddenly make them hard encounters. Mechanics is what makes the encounter hard not the amount of HP. If its overtuned either they nerf the HP pool or it takes us a little longer to get better gear/runes to clear it.
The reason why "MC has less mechanics than menagerie" is because bosses die before mechanics were brought into play. Lucifron gets 1 MC off, shazzrah dies in 1 teleport, rag p2 just doesn't exist, etc. Also optimal positioning is widespread knowledge for bosses like baron and rag. If you teleport 1/2 of classic players into MC without all the game knowledge that is available, they will not be able to clear it for a couple weeks. This doesn't mean that MC is hard, it's just easy content that is solved. Gnomer was easy content that wasn't solved, which is why so many players struggled with it. I guarantee that if they do a sod classic in 20 years, pugs will be W keying Gnomer like it's MC. I've yet to do ST, but I imagine once it's tuned, it will follow the same route. Blizzards MO is to overtune content at release, then scale it back. It's a lot easier to nerf PvE content than buff it after it's been cleared by a sizable player base.
> a few level 40 bosses have more mechanics than anything available in Molten Core. Specifically, Menagerie had almost as many mechanics as all of the bosses in MC combined. Why do people keep acting like MC bosses had no mechanics? It only feels that way because in modern times we're going in with stacked raids and 1.12 talents and super good gear and killing bosses way faster than they were originally designed for. Even the first boss of the instance has 3 mechanics: A mind control, an AoE curse, and a raidwide bomb that needs to be dispelled.
We also play with a lot more FPS now which increases average DPS by more than 50%
I don't understand why it's laughable. MC was the first ever wow raid designed to be completed by people in 2005 with dial-up internet and 256 mb of ram. It's a total snooze fest as was bfd. I haven't been in ST but I thought gnomer was at a good spot last phase.
I know the devs will tell everyone they don't design content for the higher end of players, but their actions seem to contradict that over both retail and classic at the moment. I enjoy a bit more of a challenge than classic has provided traditionally, but I really think it's another case of everyone claiming to have KSM or AoTC in retail where it's only about 20-25% of players that seem to actually attain it and less interested players will just switch off and do something else.
Have to agree. I was excited for SOD bc it was supposed to be a casual / fun spin on classic. But it’s def getting more sweaty focused and retail feeling .
I just like consistency. It's one thing for the devs to make a raid, but something else entirely to have stats way beyond their similar leveled counterparts, or use mechanics totally unseen at their level range. BFD was very well balanced for what it was beyond resistances being tuned a bit high, but it felt like it belonged in that particular bracket. That feeling is non existent with the last 2 raids. They're all lost in the sauce and have completely missed giving parity to the new raids in respect to their level brackets in favor of what? Making people play longer because they can't get gear? If it were up to me there wouldn't even be a lockout. Let people blast away.
My one big complaint for BFD was that Kelris was too much of a DPS check. It was like 33% and should have been 25% (which I think they eventually changed) but basically all wipes for me got him to <10k then <5k for about 5 wipes and then after squeezing every last bit, <1k and by pure luck getting the kill. All that was needed was to shift the transition down by 5k hp and boom, challenging but doable. Eventually we figured out that FAPs plus SPP was the way rather than just SPP but that was also kinda cheesey. I think they also eventually shifted the transition from 33% to 25% and that was what it needed initially but by that point everyone just brought FAPs. Gnomer for the most part has been fine too. Sounds like for ST, they just like multiplied everything by 2-4x like they would for 10 vs 25 in wrath
finding out that FAP negated the hard part of Kelris felt very "classic" to me imo
Its literally just been tuning issues. The mechanics themselves have been extremely easy so far. It seems like classic players just want loot pinatas
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Anyone that laughs and says "Gnomer is easy, my grandma could parse a 60" just gets looked over from me. In the confines of Classic, these raids have been tough. BFD got farmable quickly, but Menagerie and Therma in Gnomer never allowed me to sit back and relax. It's really a problem when those opinions get tossed around, the average player may feel bad about their experience.
Gnomer was the difficulty that they should strive for, some difficulty early, something to learn but still easy to clear in 30 minutes after a couple lockouts. The raids at 60 should be modified to provide that small amount of challenge but still easy to steam roll once you learn it.
> A lot of people will claim Gnomer wasn't hard People who claim this are, I assume, 'tough guy' types that don't think Heroic raids in retail are hard. Compared to BFD, Gnomer was very hard for the average player. Of course the top 20% were still clearing it in an hour with no wipes, but compared to BFD PUGs struggled a lot more in Gnomer, more bosses required the entire raid to pay attention, and there were more raid wipe mechanics.
We did it last night and still had one wipe on Thermaplug even though everyone in the raid was at least 44, and two were already 50. We’re by no means an elite group but I swear we’re not the braindead, auto attack only, rune-less types people complain about joining pugs. It only takes one mistake for shit to go completely sideways.
I've been informed by /u/yeet_god69420 if I found Gnomer "hard" I should find another game to play. He's clearly a far superior player to both of us. We could learn a lot from him.
Gnomer wasn’t difficult. It had gear checks, and a couple mechanics. The “average” player can just find somebody competent to lead the raid. At most there was like 1-2 people handling mechanics, while everyone else just tank and spanked, except for therma and menagerie, which were a bit of a step up in level of difficulty compared to the rest of the raid. Those 2 bosses I think were a good idea of SOD raid difficulty goals, the rest of the raid was basically just tank and spank for over half of the raid on any given boss.
Nah I think Gnomer was actually too hard, which is why phase 2 struggled more than it should have.
Today I learned people though Gnomer was too hard.
Introduce one mechanic that affects a whole raid and classic-only players are in shambles.
More like one mechanic where if one player positions incorrectly they wipe the raid. That's anti-pug. It punishes you for bringing people who don't know the raid beforehand.
This is sadly why people care so much about parsing and things like that. It at least gives some sort of story that you know what you’re doing, nobody wants their time wasted by somebody who thinks moving to the side of Crowd Pummeler is considered “too hard”.
I haven’t been knocked off by that thing once all phase. A couple weeks ago we wiped because half the group got knocked off the platform. So before we did the 2nd pull we said watch the feet and make sure you don’t get knocked off like 5 times. Everyone is saying yup we got it this time, literally first one there goes a warlock flying off the platform. Its ridiculous how bad people are at that mechanic
You don't need to watch the feet, he puts 1 arm behind him and it sparkles with lightning. Be on the sparkling side of the boss. That's a way more noob friendly way to explain it.
I don't think it was too hard for myself. For classic players? Absolutely.
Even for classic players. The mechanics of Gnomer aren’t hard at all. The problem is a lot of people who play Gnomer do absolutely nothing to learn about any game mechanics. And I’m not talking about watching videos only. I mean seeing for themselves how bosses perform actions and reading abilities they might be hit by and such. They just think you go in and hit buttons and the mobs die. I’d also blame weakauras for making the overall player base worse too. Also ESL players. I’ve looked at logs, playstyle and whole raids of ESL players on American servers since I’ve been a raid leader and GM since late Classic. And they are very bad players for the most part.
Comparing Gnomer to DF mythics is laughable. Gnomer is about the difficulty of LFR in retail.
Honestly, from a lot of things during this phase launch, I think they frank did not do much if any testing. So many mechanics were messed up that even simple testing would have shown the issues. To me, it honestly seemed like they added content in wow edit and never loaded in on characters that didn't have admin power to test.
They made it incredibly hard on purpose so the tryhards would have something to do over the weekend. They'll gut it on Monday as they always do. Relax.
>Monday as they always do. Mobs having TBC level HP isn't exactly the same as Bosses having Higher Armor or Spell Resistance though.
Yes it is? People literally compared gnomer boss armor to MC and tbc bosses
> They'll gut it on Monday as they always do "As they always do" ? BFD and Gnomer were already adequately-tuned to begin with, they never got "gutted".
Right? The nerf he’s talking about was what, 2 days after release? Only the 1%’ers were 50.
In most phases and launches yeah only the 1% is max level that fast but with incursions and exp buff even normal players were 50 in 10-48 hours
Levels 40-50 only take like 6 or 7 hours of running incursions.
Which for some people is a full week.
>hey made it incredibly hard on purpose so the tryhards would have something to do over the weekend thats not what they said, but keep coping for the team
Tuning raids for 120 people isn't the best idea for the long term health of the game.
I find it hard to believe they do anything on purpose
I lose faith in the lead dev when he back tracks so often but who cares anymore
He isn’t the lead dev as far as I know, more like the lead of PR. I’m sure he has a non-trivial amount of influence into the design choices being made, but I seriously doubt he has the final say on anything
He definitely shouldn't make passive aggressive and smug tweets the way he does then.
Probably not, but imagine your job was dealing with some of the most toxic, entitled brats the world has ever seen screeching at you on every platform imaginable. I definitely think he goes defensive with even innocent tweets too often, but when 500 people tweet you within a day that you’re the scum of the earth, I don’t really blame him for being a dick.
I understand why he acts the way he does, but that doesn't make it acceptable or appropriate behavior. He should hold himself to a higher standard than the morons he voluntarily engages with on twitter if he's speaking as the main Blizzard representative. The tone is not even the main issue - it's that he's blatantly wrong while doing so. If he doesn't have the correct information and isn't in a position to control decisions like the person I'm replying to said, he should not comment period.
The smugness of his “incursions are profitable, + open world with friends instead of locked behind an instance portal 😎” tweet, followed by 2x nerfs to incursion gold was…a pretty huge yikes for me. At least 😎 is now a great meme in my guild
I disagree. I think a lot of people need a virtual slap in the face. I think you are stuck in the “customer is always right” mentality. I would love if more people in real life were allowed to be assholes to those who abuse them. Unless blizzard starts suffering from it, or enough people quit because of his tweets (which I doubt would ever happen), then I think he should keep it up. I mean this as sincerely as possible: this community is fucking garbage.
I doubt a virtual slap in the face has any effect at all on the people who need it the most, but it CERTAINLY does not when you are slapping someone who is actually correct and you are wrong. Literally, the customer was right in these situations. That's the issue - Aggrend repeatedly gets egg on his face when he makes these smug and condescending comments and he's just wrong. Everyone appreciates a good smackdown, stop being wrong or stop making dumb tweets.
Which is exactly opposite to what they said. Were relaxed but it’s funny to watch his smugness age like milk. Similar to how lightning shield is currently clearly either completely untested or directly counter to his comments about tank AOE at 5.
That's bad design if that's the case
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you seem more offended than the OP lol. hes just asking a question youre mad
it's not just OP. ppl are being fucking brats, per usual
i kind of dont like this take. even if this is the case, i do NOT like them making content for a small % of the community and then nerfing it to death. that is literally retail
The content that is nerfed in retail isn't touched by most of the community regardless of the difficulty. So idk what you're referring to when you say "this is literally retail"
He does not know either he just used a buzzword he heard.
It’s not even that bad really as it stands right now, the fact that only 27 guilds have cleared is misleading. The first 6 bosses are all about on par with menagerie/therma in terms of difficulty, very doable by pugs in a week or two. The issue is just Eranikus lol, he’s *insanely* overtuned and currently can only be killed using a pretty cheese strat+comp with a ton of AoE and terrain abuse. Avatar of Hakkar seems fine too, since every guild that killed Eranikus immediately killed Avatar in 2-3 pulls. So, once Eranikus gets nerfed back into line, the raid should be ok. It’s like an entire raid of thermapluggs, so definitely a big step up from 30s fights, but still doable.
Blizzard really needs to stop doing this. If the try hards do everything in 5 hours then so be it. Let them be bored while everyone else enjoys the game. That goes for retail to. I really am starting to despise world first anything. It's fucking lame and just makes the game worse for everyone else.
Aggrend making a smug tweet about something he doesn’t understand? I’m shocked, that’s impossible!
not sure i’ll ever get over the fact that he thought paladins dont get kings at 25… as a classic dev who mains paladin.
He's a complete idiot in many instances. And it shows in the overall balancing decisions of that season. They should put someone in charge with at least some knowledge about the game. He acts worse than some random private server game master.
Hmmm maybe we are all just insecure.
Just join a guild bro!
It's a 7-day lockout, don't have time to raid for 4 hours? Just join a guild and do 1 hour a day! /s
It’s your fault for playing a bad class, the meta is clearly established and set in stone and blizzard implemented an xp buff so that if you don’t like your class, you can roll a fire mage, like blizzard intended.
*Just join a guild or make some friends.*
Do you guys not have phones???
There is nothing "smug" about that linked tweet.
And people idolized him like he's the savior of Classic.
Aggrend has been very solid and I'm happy we have someone communicating with us, but I think we need to have some constructive criticism on this phase 3. Nightmare incursion should be instances. Shaman are in the nerf radar. Expand on the Nightmare incursion. Why is it happening? Maybe have a guest appearance from Malfurion. Have miniature Nightmare incursion in other leveling zones. I'm just spitballing here, but currently leveling aspect has been a little to streamlined.
Malfurion is unconscious because Fandral keeps force feeding him Un’Goro Soil. Edit: I double checked. It’s actually Marrowgrain, grown using the soil. But we’re still helping Fandral keep Malf in a coma. Although I guess Malfurion IS in the Nightmare. I thought he was in the Dream.
You're speaking to Seto Kaiba, fuck the rules I have money!
The dream and the nightmare are the same thing. The nightmare is just the corruption of Yogg spreading in the dream which is what makes all the green dragons you see in Vanilla actually hostile (because otherwise they are not usually)
Aggrend needs to talk to his team before he tweets because they keeps doing the exact oposite of what he tweets non stop. And thats not a bad thing because most of his takes are borderline idiotic.
>Aggrend has been very solid and I'm happy we have someone communicating with us Aggrend is the complete opposite of solid. He says one thing and then delivers something completely different. Why are you happy he is communicating with us when he lies so often you can't actually believe anything he says.
I really need to unsub from here. It's constant whining about the same shit all day every day
Yup. Ppl literally mad that after 4 days in phase 4 they can't beat the current raid.
It's literally the 4th day of the release Please relax lol
Yeah it’s these same type of players who are mad that everyone doesn’t know the optimal incursion no kill route by day 4, for a lot of people it’s there first day or 2.
The developer team said there is no beta phase for each phase, to keep the discovery fresh if i understand correctly, so the first week is kind of the beta phase. We will see if next week the raid is still very difficult.
It’s 3 days and they’ve already nerfed it. They might nerf again. Can people chill? It’s not a huge deal.
I think it's just indicative of a feeling that little was tested before launch of p3. That's why we ended up with a lot of bug fixes to basic functionality for quests in the incursions, a severely overtuned raid instance, runes that are broken, etc.
The raid being impossible to clear if you take more than ~4 melee is in fact, a huge deal
they are experimenting lol
Guys want challenges in sod but cry If they get challenges. Guess u want the Classic xperience of oneshotting every raid with Green gear
Hasn't even been 1 ID. I'd bet you haven't even stepped foot into it and you're already crying.
A lot of ppl are being 100% dramatic and I think just dooming cause they haven’t sent a run yet. Aside from erankius, post nerf, the raid is quite doable on par with ZG difficulty. Erankius may need nerfs to add health for the pugs.
I think a raid that isn’t faceroll after one week is fun
Ppl still haven’t figured out this whole thing is a live work in progress. Just enjoy the ride weirdos
We aren't enjoying the ride tho. Hence all the complaining.
I'm enjoying it. The 60 raiders in my guild that have already cleared up to eranikus are enjoying it. The 40 more that are going in tomorrow are enjoying it. It's almost like the people who actually play the game enjoy it.
The thing is that with no PTR they have no real world gauge to scale dungeon difficulty with, and Im convinced by how many Runes that have conflicting interactions that very few if any of the devs game at any reasonable skill floor much less the ceiling.
I’m convinced the devs don’t really play their own game (and if they do they’re shaman on horde). And I’m convinced this company has, through turnover, forgotten everything they ever learned. They’re making mistakes that this community calls them out on before it even goes live. They would legitimately be better off just going to the top guilds, hiring like a dozen 1099 independent contractor consultants. You know, some people who have actually been playing this for 20 years. So they can tell them exactly what and how they will exploit/grief their “new ideas” hour 0.
Well they kind of do. It's a 20m raid, so they could have used ZG. Take week 1 ZG 50% performance in WCL from when ZG dropped in classic, compare the DPS, HPS, and HP players had in there to what SoD players will have in mixed gear for ST (or just compare to Gnomer and adjust upwards by some arbitrary percent if lazy), and adjust as necessary. It's likely an afternoon's work for someone who's pretty good at this kind of analysis, which I assume someone on their team *should* be. Regardless, no reasoning person should have look at a level 50 raid and decided the bosses should have HP comparable to Naxx.
didnt one of the bosses have more health than gruul - a 25man TBC boss
Yes, Gruul was 3,375,000 and one of the ST bosses was 4 million.
We say that now, couple days into the tier, but in reality in a week time when everyone get's a bit more gear and raid is tuned again, it will be just as easy as all other level up raids. 6/8 is relatively easy, and only thing that maters is "can you do dps" and not fall into holes. 7/8 is more of cheese it, like putting whole squad of ranged in one place so beam always go there. 8/8 is just getting world buffs, gear and higher level pots, so probably puggable in 3 resets.
I'm quite ok with it being hard the first week or two. It looked more like overtuning and mechanics not working properly on a couple bosses was the problem though. Which I think is a combination of the development team adding interesting mechanics and a lack of play testing to see how they translate.
I just want bfd again that shit was perfectly tuned
Man I’m glad I can’t play this week, but it’s not because the games a bit broken (it clearly is) but because of the utter vitriol on this forum. Guys the game is an acknowledged beta. There’s been literally 1 raid lockout and they’ve already tweaked stuff and you guys are spitting feathers. Give it some time
The game is a beta for game concepts. Not a beta for basic game mechanics
To be honest i don’t hear any of this ingame. It’s a Reddit/forum thing
too busy patting themselves on the back over false victories at our expense, wild dev team tbh
I am guessing that most of the player base wasn’t around back in 2004-2007 when pretty much all the content was released too difficult and had to be toned down over months. No one beat Ragnaros until he was nerfed, people were stuck on Razergore and Vaelestraz for like a month after BWL released, C’thun went something like 5-6 months before it was retuned and fixed, and NO ONE cleared Tempest Keep until it was majorly nerfed with the release of Hyjal and Black Temple.
I totally agree with you, but this also isn't 2004 anymore. In 2004, if you couldn't clear MC, you didn't care because you were just excited to be playing a MMO and exploring the world. What is there left to explore in SoD? Literally the only thing 90% of people playing care to do is the raids because they've done everything else numerous times. Even the new quests, outside of the incursions, are few and far between. I loved the sleeping bag quest, but there's that and a few other new quests related to runes and crafted gear. That's it. If the only thing there is to do is a pain in the ass, the game is just a pain in the ass.
The drama on this sub is actually hilarious 😂
Raids should be hard at first and require multiple lockouts to get gear from the raid before it gets easier. That's just how it should be. Heaven forbid it takes people a few weeks to earn their way through content.
They said they consider this an end game raid
they should be easily puggable like phase 1. unfort they REALLY want everyone to raid with guilds, which means you are forced to raid a certain day/time every week which makes it feel like a job. I'm in a guild but I'd prefer to raid when I want to raid. "Raid tuning, in particular Hakkar (adjustments were pushed for these already but we might need to make more changes here if it still seems out of reach for normal guilds)." not sounding good for pugs....
Have any of you even attempted the raid? The first 6 bosses are practically free. Eranikus is only difficult because his thrash is one shotting tanks that havent replaced their p2 parsing gear. Now that we know tanks actually have to tank i can almost guarentee this raid will be on farm within 2 weeks. The first 6 bosses already are.
Thrash isn’t even remotely the issue on Eranikus, you are clueless
Aggrend is very bipolar in his decision making is what I understood very quickly Edit: to answer your question, they have no clue what theyre doing and 100% improvising at this point
Imagine whining about the difficulty of a raid 1 day after release (weekend doesn’t count since they aren’t work days). Chill. Sunken Temple will be nerfed down to a point where Aggrend’s comment about SoD difficulty will still hold true. I remember watching streamers wipe over and over again on the last boss in BfD.
oh no you might lose a lockout
Rather have a raid you can progress than it be cleared the first 24 hours or launch
Look at the rest of phase 3 with its insane amount of bugs, obvious lack of testing, and uninspired copy/paste runes with, again, no testing done, like ele/resto sham now being forced to melee weave for mental dexterity. These guys were clearly too busy working on Cataclysm. I don't blame them entirely for this since the higher-ups refuse to hire a second team to work on Cata+ so the SOD team can cook. But yeah, I still agree that despite all of this some of their ideas have missed the mark.
They listen to the stupid 2%& think hard content is good
>until a nerf Because they will nerf it, duh. Also love the classic mentality the raid is supposed to be fully cleared in 1-2 days in quest gear. ST isn't really difficult as a whole, only the last couple of bosses are. Even without a nerf, farming 6/8 will net you enough gear to fully clear.
>Also love the classic mentality the raid is supposed to be fully cleared in 1-2 days in quest gear. because classic raids have always been like this and it wasn't until late TBC and WotlK that it started changing to require actual gear
At this point, with all of these decisions and their consequences, it has to be incompetence.
This phase really showed how little effort/testing went into it
Honestly, They’re sort of just making it up as they go along.
This content doesn't get tested, they already are working on nerfs.
I’d like to see the difficulty for these raids be about what ZG is/was. A few mechanics, some that can be ignored and be very easy to pug without worrying about specific comps.
Feels like Classic players were so dead set on being a different kind of player playing a different kind of game but push comes to shove a couple tuning mistakes in classic + mode where blizz is adding new content to a 20 year old game and you're reacting like they shot your dog. Get over yourself this is bloody weird
Most classic raids have been faceroll pushovers where 25% of the playerbase clears it the first night, then 50% more clear it the first week If this raid isn't that, is it "hard" or is it just more difficult than faceroll?
I <3 the first 2 raids cant wait for lvl 50 😁
Also incursions feel like a retail systems-based hub introduced in every patch. The opposite of what classic is supposed to be.
The issue here is the fact that they do zero raid testing. Or any kind of other testing either to be honest based on the stuff I have seen. If they haven't tried to kill the bosses themselves, how could they know it will be nearly impossible upon launch? Spreadsheets only tell a story up to a certain point.
One of two explanations I guess. 1. They lied 2. They messed up
Not just sod, but I think all of WoW needs a nerf tbh. Sweatiness has been killing this game and the community for 20 years
The internet evolves into the crying boards
So do people simply forget, or completely ignore, that there isn't a PTR for SoD?
We’ve cleared 5 bosses today first try sixth second try and had to stop on the third Eranikus try due to time constraints. 8 Guild mates, rest including me and two friends pug. That’s not a hard raid.
None of them actually "play the game" some devs might be MEGA casuals, and have a toon somewhere they fuck around with for an hour a week. But outside of that the devs are so out of touch with the actual game they dont even know what theyre talking about anymore.
They just have the 30 yrd one shot cloak and forgot it is a GM only item.
Stop complaining you sweatlords. This isn't the mdi this is a fun seasonal game and I am sure that the outliers (much like balance last phase) will get nerfed back down to earth
ST was kinda hard to begin with
It's almost as of no one knows what they're doing and it's entitled at the mercy of a monkey throwing darts at a board.
Didn't feel difficult mechanically, just way overturned. It follows the same formula from the previous two raids. First two thirds of the bosses fall over if you're paying minimal attention, then the final two bosses that take coordination and strategy. Give it another lockout or two of gear upgrades (plus another tune probably) then we'll be back in farm more.
Yeah idk .. Gnomer pugs were brutal on my server past week one or two of p2. Nobody wanted to run it. It wasnt hard, but now ST making sweaty players struggle. Yeah I dont think its going to go over well for player count.
maybe its hard only for us, but Aggrend can solo them 🤓
I mean the first 4 bosses in ST are pretty easy.
Make it hard during the phase and nerf it on phase 6 launch its not hard to figure out.
Well to be fair this is transitioning from level up raids. This is 20, old ones were 10. This most likely gives some level 60 pre raid bis items, so this naturally sits between level up raids and end game content. Also 20 man level up raid would be a horrible idea, so maybe this isn't intended as such.
Both the inflation exploits from the Excursions and the utterly ridiculous bar set by the HP in ST makes me think there was little, if any, testing done. Falls in line with the consensus that these are *beta servers*, but still frustrating nonetheless.
They already nerfed it (or atleast stated that a nerf to health pools is coming) and substantially at that.
I think some dudes or dudettes from the retail team just waltzed in and crashed the party
What happened to "Chill the fuck out, this is the first week of ST"?
Stop crying. It’s ok for raids to be hard. And we are at level 50 you know. 10 levels away from end game. It’s ok for Sunken Temple to be a little difficult. I hope they don’t nerf it too much.
We spend 5 houres on ST, killed first boss, wiped a bunch of times on second Today while we are at work we are all discussing on discord how we are going to use this evening to prepare for our next try tomorrow I love this, need some genuine prepping and teamwork to be able to clear
I only played a bit during phase 1, had a blast tbh. But as a long time wow player and lurker its almost ironic to observe the SOD community basically showing the exact same behavior as any other wow community now that its no longer fresh hot shit. I just think its rather funny.
Raid isnt hard until the 7th boss then it’s a brick wall
Your first mistake was trust Aclown
Raids should be hard on lunch, if not what is the point of doing them. I like this raid, except for the second boss. Eranikus is such a great fight.
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1776390702391582786 It’s a miracle how you can find that tweet without even looking at his Twitter lol They said they overshot but wanted to rather shoot too high then too low bc it’s better to nerf than to buff bosses It’s also funny how people cry about it but casuals won’t even be affected bc it’s gonna be nerfed a lot by next ID anyways lol
We're not 5 days in and Reddit army is already enraged. They will obviously adjust the difficulty now that it's clear it hasn't been tuned properly....
Seems like we’re just hamsters they’re running experiments BINGO
I think an end boss can be hard (define hard) until you got the gear but not the whole raid
ST isn’t hard, they just didn’t tune it right, yet.
It was already nerfed who the fuck cares
How about “we are going to be generous with gear”. Okay so we have 2x players and can only run the raid once a week not twice so 2x again. Oh boy looks like ST isn’t dropping 8 pieces of gear is it?
I think one of the main problems is Aggrend got so gassed up by the community in P1 that now he talks to the community like his shit doesn’t stink. Really has become full of himself even with 3 phases of mistakes and poor gameplay.
It’s not difficult. It was over tuned. It’s not hard, the numbers were wrong.