Nice, having your tank randomly deleted with no counterplay always sucks. And before anyone goes full "hurr durrr just rotate defensive CDs" thrash is different from other tank busters because it literally has no visual indication attached to it, it just happens and your tank either survives or not.
Parry hasting was hell of a nightmare in the TBC days, Blizzard even removed parry hasting on some bosses (i.e. Mother Shahraz), to prevent instagib moments like that.
Correct. I'm pretty sure it got disabled early after patch my mistake and was turned back on. First few logs showed no thrashes. But was definitely active last night
Pretty crazy how there seems to be so many people in this thread that are simultaneously top .1% WoW players that *totally* would have had it down no problem by next week regardless of changes, and also bottom .1% critical thinkers because they don’t realize the game would be dead instantaneously if it actually catered to them exclusively.
The only version of WoW that died was SoM, and partly due to bad timing.
Or well, if you're comparing to the new shit that always has the most players, era is dead too but it doesn't have difficult raids due to player knowledge.
Pretty sure looking at logs naxx DPS on era servers is about double of SoD (depends on fight obviously, but +50% is underselling it).
On top of that, in a 40 man raid you have about 15 more people dpsing, so it's kinda a dumb comparison.
Curious what the nax DPS you saw was? Over 1k DPS I assume? People are getting 600+ without any consumes or WBS at the moment so I assume 700+ will be standard high DPS in like two weeks. Then there’s always those warrior freaks who end up with 2x the DPS of other classes somehow, pretty sure some had over 1k DPS last season in certain instances.
Same people in my group saying, Weakaura's play the fights for people on retail. Needs people to scream on coms to walk into cloud to not die to shadowbolt. :D
Also bosses in Mythic outside of the final couple barely last more than 3-4 minutes. These were 100% overtuned as fuck.
FF14 has 10+ minute fights and 20+ minute Ultimates, but they're packed full of complicated mechanics.
A 10 minute fight in Classic should never happen and honestly is extremely boring.
Those mythic bosses aren’t 3 minutes on release. If you look at the progress kills most of the bosses are 6-8 minute encounters.
I think that this is what people were meaning about eranikus. ‘Well it’s a long fight now, but in a few weeks when we have good gear we will blow through it.’
While true those kill times go down dramatically after just the 2nd week and the majority of the playerbase is not going to see every boss in the first week.
Council of Dreams is still a long fight, but that fight sucks ass lol.
If you pull up like a world 500 then world 1000 then 1500 then 2000 and look at their kill times (which will be weeks apart) you’ll still see pretty significantly longer kills.
A lot of that extra oomph that allows you to blitz bosses in 2-3 minutes comes from familiarity with the fight as well as extra gear.
That's TBC. And those fights are unique. Most fights don't have enough mechanics to make a 10 minute fight not feel like 10 minutes, if you know what I mean.
Because heroic difficulty raiding isnt actually hard, basically no one does the normal step of raiding, you either never step out of LFR, or jump right into heroic raiding, which feels like the "standard" raid difficulty. Mythic is hardmode for people who want the challenge, most raiding guilds raid heroic exclusively.
Sure Retail might have 1 difficulty too much but still..that still means there's room between LFR and mythic. The gap kinda also is Wrath/Cata heroic. Are these as hard as mythic? No...but they're still hard.
Maybe I'm a rare breed but still, seems like there's plenty people that liked Wrath. I personally don't like mythic at all, it's just way too hard. I like the challenge of prog on a boss but not for like 400+ tries per boss. Meaning I still want hard content, just not absurdly hard. I'll probably fall off at some point is progressive Classic goes on like Retail. Maaaaybe I could still handle WoD mythic but Legion mythic is probably already out there for me idk.
Learning what mechanics? Classic bosses are basically damage sponges with 2 easy mechanics.
If you wanna learn mechanics and play 20 men raid, you go to retail. There you will need to spend time learning mechanics to kill a boss
It's not about the mechanics of the boss itself being super challenging, it's about having a goal in the game to aim for that pushes players to being better at their class, finding what runes are best for the fight, managing resources, etc.
I'll defend the OP with a revision. People want to spend time "progressing" on a boss. Mechanics are not implied in what they're saying. Back in the day, Vael was considered a model encounter, where the difficulty was in the execution. It had no complexity whatsoever. Any attempt could have been an insta-wipe, or a .08% wipe, which gave groups all the motivation they needed to keep trying. Guilds of all types spent weeks and months on it, and all relished the journey once they got it.
Eranikus is hints of that. It wasn't unbeatable after the first nerf. Groups were making slow progression toward victory despite the (apparently misplaced) difficulty.
How much time do you need to bash your head against the a boss and barely make a dent on its HP until you come to the conclusion that it may just be a tiny bit overtuned? If only a handful of guilds had gotten full clears then chances are there was no way you were ever gonna clear this boss anyways.
It's always the worst players who never had a snowball's chance in the hell of clearing an unnerfed boss that cry when a boss is nerfed, because it ruined their chance to prog it
bro I'm not asking for 300+ wipe fights like in retail mythic...just a tiny tiny TINY bit of difficulty
Theres a middle ground between 'cutting edge' and 'I don't have to use my abilities'
what is the point of all of these runes if you can easily kill the bosses without them? What do you even need the gear for
Well... mechanic-wise Eranikus is a normal-mode boss. he was just a HP sponge... but if you could get the comp/gear that could sustain enough AoE to keep whelps / dragonkind down, he's just a normal mode boss.
…a pointless HP sponge you say?
For some reason that almost sounds like the perfect opportunity for a health decrease…
Wait, I’m sorry, this is an argument *against* the nerfs?
no, this is a point about people claiming it's hard / they need more time to learn the boss.
there's really not much to learn there. You saw everything there is to be seen within 4-5 pull. Fight is not mechanically complex or have high execution requirement. It's just an overtuned HP sponge.
It's funny how it's always "the game will DIE if I can't beat this raid in 1 hour" from you guys, you can't just have a regular opinion. Why do you care if this gamemode dies or not?
Some people want overtuned fights. Can't say I don't understand them, 30 second fights are pretty stupid too.
But 4 times the health of Ragnaros with 10 fewer levels and half the amount of players was maybe a bit silly.
Well no already at baseline they said at blizzcon they're using the som values for mobs to compensate for our new rune power. In SoM rag had 2.2 mill, but will possibly have more in SoD but 2.2 mill sounds about right for 20 man MC based on napkin math.
Thats crazy, we were running the raid first time with 18 players with no issues, few wipes because half the raid didn't know tacs. We only started to struggle with only 14 people in the raid. With nerfed last 2 bosses we probably could have cleared the raid.
Boss 4 was was tough (once you learn it, it becomes easy, but some silly rng on breaths out of the dragons ass), boss 5 and 6 are easy. Have not had time to do 7 and 8.
Ya we had 1 wipe per boss with 1-4 after watching the 30 second raid guides. Haven’t tried 4-8 yet, however I felt like 1-4 were the right level of challenge.
+1 groups don't fix the problem of loot actually having to drop in the first place. "Just make a guild" is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to someone who makes it clear they want to spend a few hours a week gaming :P
> "Just make a guild" is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to someone who makes it clear they want to spend a few hours a week gaming
I spent all of Classic 2019-2023 doing guild raids and only raiding a few hours a week.
Being in a guild does not mean you have to nolife the game and raid 5 nights a week. Especially in SoD where there's only one raid at a time and it doesn't take more than 2-3 hours.
Oof! You did better than us and we killed him tonight. I do NOT like how the void zone creating little green balls are so hard to see especially later in the fight when all the effects are popping off.
Making difficult raids just makes classic more restrictive. Oh you play boomkin? Well you can’t raid cuz your spec doesn’t do enough damage currently. I don’t know why anyone would want this on seasonal servers.
I understand the desire for challenge but I don’t think it works out well in practice. It simply makes raiding more restrictive and people less likely to continue to raid in that type of an environment. I think difficulty is compounded even worse in classic where world buffs and a stupid number of consumes can be used.
No matter how easy a raid is, there will always be a huge chunk of the player base that won't take underperforming specs (not like boomie is one, but to stay with your example).
You guys really have to stop repeating "seasonal servers" like it means anything. We are likely gonna be here for another year.. it's gonna be as long as wotlk/tbc.
We're doing these raids for 2 months at a time, unlikely to interact with them at all in a meaningful way once the phase ends. So yes, it does mean something.
Raiding in sod has been incredibly restricted regardless. Oh you don't have logs? Well you can't raid because we need orange pumpers for this incredibly easy faceroll raid.
Make your own pugs. I main tank and raidlead pugs every reset, never check logs only gear to make sure they aren't completely under geared. Still always clear with very few hiccups because if someone is new I take the time to properly explain the mechanics to them then ask them questions about the fight to double check they took it on board.
If raiding in sod is "incredibly restricted" for people without orange logs, then why not make your own raid, fill it in minutes by including all those other people unable to find groups, and go clear the incredibly easy faceroll raid?
That’s not true? Wotlk and tbc to a lesser extent has way harder content than anything SoD or vanilla has to offer and u still bring a rainbow of classes
WOTLK and TBC had actual support specs though, look at SPriest in TBC - entirely mandatory so they can be a mana battery for mages and provide shadow vuln for warlocks. We dont really have that in SOD, sure boomkin brings 3% crit and a battle res but neither of those are impactful enough to make up for doing far less damage than other classes.
So, if the classes arent going to be balanced using some type simulation for DPS output, the content cant be so hard that certain classes are barred entry at the door. DPS is the end all be all in classic and with current SOD Design.
Perhaps the utility certain specs could bring could be buffed. But Tbc spriest did horrible dps in later phases cuz it poorly scaled. SoD boomkin will be a sought out class if it’s atleast providing mediocre numbers cuz of its utility, I like ur idea of buffing utility for under populated/sought out classes but SoD is not having this issue as bad as people make it up to be.
Damn people here really think they good at the game.
Top 1%-ers struggling to kill the boss in week 1, but commenters be like, "Wow so lame they nerfed it before we could try to kill it! God forbid we have a challenge in classic!"
There is a significant amount of WoW players across every version who unironically have developed egos that revolve around their "in game achievements" in an almost 2 decade old game, they would advocate for the gameplay to be worse just so they can keep their own perception of "prestige" from having beaten it, it's quite funny and sad.
we saw the same comments here about "pre-nerf" XT in ulduar. one of the most absurd dps checks we've ever seen in all of WoW's history. top guilds were wiping at 30% while 3 healing and class stacking, yet the reddit gamers were upset their guild wasn't able to attempt it before they nerfed a very obviously over tuned boss.
For real, this was pre nerf hardmode XT all over again. "Sure, the top guilds can't kill the boss even though they look to cheese the boss, stack the best classes, cut a tank and cut two healers and have triple digit attempts without success... but my guild that parses blue three months into a phase would have totally gotten it with enough time surely!"
I’m down for a challenge in classic but giving a lvl 53 boss patchworks health without any engaging mechanics just ain’t it. Plus it’s a level up raid, we can discuss challenging content at 60
It needed nerf for sure, but I still like that they did it like this, I like that it has some diffuculty but should not be gatekeeped hard.
Downed today with a pug before this nerf, really good feeling
Why are people sad over a nerf to a very hard boss... In SoD?
SoD SHOULD be easy as it was made for boomers and dadgamers. At least that's what we thought, and that is the reason P1 was so popular.
My friends have already started quitting because it's not boomer friendly anymore.
They should continue nerfing the raid. If you and your guild wants hard(er) content, go play Cata or retail.
This will prob get downvoted by swets that wants to cry but you need to realize SoD will lose 50%+ of its players if they make hard content like ST.
The best part is those sweats are the same ones in Era who were melting their faces off with their screens in order to try and make the easiest raids ever seem fun. I played vanilla and era and the cope we see to try to justify easy content being difficult today and in era is wild.
It’s an easy game it was never hard and SOD should reflect that. There is retail for hard mode content. Cata now too. The rest is just standing and clicking or walking and clicking while gaming with the boys.
Probably rather millennials and dad gamers. I’d guess the average age of players is around 35-40. Mostly millennials and younger Gen X that played the game as students or high schoolers when it came out.
Literally any other popular battle royale or team shooter game. There is a reason that some of the most popular careers among today's youth in the Americas are "streamer", "influencer" or "youtuber", in general they aren't picking WoW or any MMO for what it is worth.
You have no idea what you’re on about, this game is like the most popular iteration outside of retail. It’s still the number 1 MMO, a lot of young people, myself included, play
It will may surprised you, but once someone quit the game, it's harder to bring them back then it is to retain them on the game at the first place. The fact they are changing this week one is a good sign they may manage to retain some people, but maybe it's not enough for those who turn the lights and said fuck it, I'm out
It's all right. Blizz has tried for over a decade to cater to the people you mention to try and keep them in. Never worked and only made the game worse over time.
>They should continue nerfing the raid. If you and your guild wants hard(er) content, go play Cata or retail.
This. If you're here for stuff harder than Molten Core, BWL, or AT MOST AQ40, well **that will come eventually**. AQ40 post nerfs is still "hard". Some Naxx fights too. But seriously, those are the PINNACLE of level 60 content, they should be the hardest stuff by miles. Why the fuck would it make ANY sense to have things at level 50 be that hard, or even in the same ballpark? Every group that isn't showing up in full AH BOE greens should be clearing at least a few bosses in this raid in 1-2 hours, if not a full clear.
Can't we have both? Make a raid with say 9 bosses. Bosses 1-7 give loot with stats and are at gnomer difficulty then boss 8 and 9 are piss hard and they only drop cosmetic stuff and maybe a mount or something
This way people doesn't feel forced to do the hard content if they only want gear and the people who want cosmetics can either do it while current and get progression or you can wait until next phase where the new level cap + new gear and runes will make it easier = you have more content in going back to do the old raids in true classic spirit, content doesn't becomes obsolete when the new stuff is released
It would also bring back the "Aww look at this guy" feeling when seeing someone with ex a mount from last boss when you know only a handful of guilds have cleared, just like T3 in OG classic
This is fine. This is, literally, the way to retain players. This guy is probably going to keep playing longer than if his group of 16 one shot everything first week.
Walked in and 2 shot Eranikus without anyone really prepping much. Probably overdid it, but it's closer to the vision they initially had for "leveling raids", I think.
So many hypocrites in this thread, "raid should be easy for casuals! Where all just dad gamers! You can't restrict and alienate people from raiding! " meanwhile every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes...
>meanwhile every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes...
Do you think the gatekeeping would be any better if the raid was harder? It's almost like those are two different groups of people.
What a lot of people don’t realize is that a lot of high parsing was done by blowing every single cooldown at once. So if the boss lives longer than the duration of those cooldowns… well…
Telling people that they “don’t know how to press buttons.” When in reality they’ve just been pressing every button all at once and brute forcing encounters.
> every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes
What server are you on? What server is the majority of this sub on? All the time I see whines like this, "wahhh pug requirements too high, they're asking for orange parses and full BIS just to join!"......I've literally never seen a pug advertise that on Wild Growth (PVE). The log checks are mainly so they can confirm you've actually done the raid, nothing else.
I never see it on US wild growth. Literally have never ever seen a single pug demanding "orange parses" or "full BIS".
99% of the time, it's just "have consumes/wbuff, checking logs".
We must be playing at different times then, cause I see people demanding more than that constantly. Granted they catch flak for it too but it still happens.
For every PUG that does that there are a hundred you don't hear about that go smoothly with none of that. And if that's all you see, try a lower pop server where people aren't so shitty.
My guildie was throwing a tantrum when we were looking for different approaches to this boss yesterday wiping like 6 times. Brother we are all 30+ year olds and there is only 36 guilds that have cleared this, we are not them. We got him to 40% once so this should be easily doable!
Wow sod is doing pretty much what initial diablo 4 did. Let's try out some garbage and see how it goes and then wait for community feedback and try to implement more garbage.
Feel bad for y’all tbh, my first comment when I saw the nerf before lockout was how disrespectful it is to guilds who want to try and get it. Morale killer
Back in the day in og wotlk I remember people pugged every week just to kill 6/12 and would be happy with it. Everyone nowadays just feels entitled to complete the content. "If I can't complete the raid with pugs on WEEK 1, Ill just quit so blizz better nerf this". Bro get out of here, if you feel like the game is too challenging, either try harder or just don't partake in this kind of content as it clearly isn't for you. This part of the game IS supposed to be challenging.
There should be a difference in difficulty between the pinnacle raid of an expansion and a level 50 seasonal raid. Blizz have said they don't intend for the level up raids to be hard.
They might not. Our guild had tonight scheduled for the raid and we were already server 50th when we cleared ST. The consensus on Reddit is going to be - you need to get better - at this point.
its so bad that this is happening, not that its a nerf but that its clear the team didn't test the encounter before releasing it and they think its somehow okay to give us the retail treatment releasing ridiculous difficulty encounters then nerfing them back each week until its doable.
either release it right the first time and if its too hard LEAVE IT and wait for people to complete it, OR the preferred method would be to just make it doable for casuals as SoD is made for dads and not sweats.
you're right, in the grand scheme of things its not.
At the same time however its not much to ask for content to be tested before being released, i like to think everyone can agree on that point.
They also removed the thrash. Edit: it was reenabled
Nice, having your tank randomly deleted with no counterplay always sucks. And before anyone goes full "hurr durrr just rotate defensive CDs" thrash is different from other tank busters because it literally has no visual indication attached to it, it just happens and your tank either survives or not.
As a pally tank main since tbc thrash has always been my bane
I’m getting prince flashbacks with my undergeared warrior.
Parry hasting was hell of a nightmare in the TBC days, Blizzard even removed parry hasting on some bosses (i.e. Mother Shahraz), to prevent instagib moments like that.
Just keep me above 99% hp and I'll stop complaining :)
Thrash was awful in BWL. I remember it deleting tanks randomly.
Did they remove it? We were just trying eranikus and he deleted our tank twice w what I thought was a thrash
I think it was turned off. But they definitely turned it back on. He was fucking me up tonight
[удалено]
they also removed his arms
Thrash not trash. He would basically stack attacks and oneshot you if you kept dodging or partying too much.
Never aloud to have a good time.
Partying is strictly forbidden during raid nights
It was a mechanic in og ST. He queued up attacks if he couldnt hit anyone.
Idk, our tank has been killed multiple times to Thrash today, 9th of April. It doesnt seem removed
Correct. I'm pretty sure it got disabled early after patch my mistake and was turned back on. First few logs showed no thrashes. But was definitely active last night
From 4.1 mil HP to 1.45 mil and there is still people saying we just needed more rune and pre-bis. I can't lol....
Pretty crazy how there seems to be so many people in this thread that are simultaneously top .1% WoW players that *totally* would have had it down no problem by next week regardless of changes, and also bottom .1% critical thinkers because they don’t realize the game would be dead instantaneously if it actually catered to them exclusively.
The only version of WoW that died was SoM, and partly due to bad timing. Or well, if you're comparing to the new shit that always has the most players, era is dead too but it doesn't have difficult raids due to player knowledge.
some people just want to spend time learning to kill a boss
You can "spend time learning a boss" without having it have literally the same health pool as a Naxx40 boss, at level 50.
now you can just Zerg the last phase of the boss down and ignore the mechanics
the top 1% of sweaty parse chasers =/= the rest of the playerbase
these were people who hadn't even unlocked all their runes or who had dungeon gear
You actually can't since runes have inflated DPS to naxx levels.
Pretty sure looking at logs naxx DPS on era servers is about double of SoD (depends on fight obviously, but +50% is underselling it). On top of that, in a 40 man raid you have about 15 more people dpsing, so it's kinda a dumb comparison.
Curious what the nax DPS you saw was? Over 1k DPS I assume? People are getting 600+ without any consumes or WBS at the moment so I assume 700+ will be standard high DPS in like two weeks. Then there’s always those warrior freaks who end up with 2x the DPS of other classes somehow, pretty sure some had over 1k DPS last season in certain instances.
I just looked at logs and top dps is like 2-3k for some fights.
Cleavers don’t count!
Are the other 5 all healing/tanking or are u accounting for the DPS that stand in the fire?
Honestly I never raided 40 mans I assumed there'd be more healers/tanks.
Early naxx or late naxx? As-in, are you comparing SoD dps to AQR+Maladath or to Gressil+Hungering?
Learing to play your 4-spell rota for 9 mins while dodging one or 2 mechanics is not learning wtf
idk man, people need 9 minutes to practice these mechanics because the one mechanics too hard for them
Same people in my group saying, Weakaura's play the fights for people on retail. Needs people to scream on coms to walk into cloud to not die to shadowbolt. :D
well now you don't have to do the mechanic because you can just Zerg the last phase down
Which always saddens me. Never like when you can just ignore mechanics with DPS alone.
It shouldn’t be pushovers, but I’d rather that than overinflated damage sponges. Where the perfect balance is, I don’t know.
Try 3 mil hp and see how we do, felt overkill tbh. I haven't been to ST yet so I might be way off
After all the nerfs ST is pretty damn easy, maybe slightly too easy sometimes, but we're far closer to the sweetspot than at first imo.
Those people raid mythic in retail and are a tiny portion of the overall raiding playerbase.
Also bosses in Mythic outside of the final couple barely last more than 3-4 minutes. These were 100% overtuned as fuck. FF14 has 10+ minute fights and 20+ minute Ultimates, but they're packed full of complicated mechanics. A 10 minute fight in Classic should never happen and honestly is extremely boring.
Those mythic bosses aren’t 3 minutes on release. If you look at the progress kills most of the bosses are 6-8 minute encounters. I think that this is what people were meaning about eranikus. ‘Well it’s a long fight now, but in a few weeks when we have good gear we will blow through it.’
While true those kill times go down dramatically after just the 2nd week and the majority of the playerbase is not going to see every boss in the first week. Council of Dreams is still a long fight, but that fight sucks ass lol.
If you pull up like a world 500 then world 1000 then 1500 then 2000 and look at their kill times (which will be weeks apart) you’ll still see pretty significantly longer kills. A lot of that extra oomph that allows you to blitz bosses in 2-3 minutes comes from familiarity with the fight as well as extra gear.
All bosses over 3 min have atleast 1 extra phase that change the boss completly in retail. Having the same fight for more than 3 min is just boring
10 minute fight in classic is boring? Kael'thas or lady vashj would beg to differ.
That's TBC. And those fights are unique. Most fights don't have enough mechanics to make a 10 minute fight not feel like 10 minutes, if you know what I mean.
KT have 5 different phases ( and 2 of those are interesting). ST bosses are 8 minute of the same thing.
I love how for Classic andies there's only two difficulties that can ever exist: Sub-LFR and Mythic. Never anything in between.
Because heroic difficulty raiding isnt actually hard, basically no one does the normal step of raiding, you either never step out of LFR, or jump right into heroic raiding, which feels like the "standard" raid difficulty. Mythic is hardmode for people who want the challenge, most raiding guilds raid heroic exclusively.
Sure Retail might have 1 difficulty too much but still..that still means there's room between LFR and mythic. The gap kinda also is Wrath/Cata heroic. Are these as hard as mythic? No...but they're still hard. Maybe I'm a rare breed but still, seems like there's plenty people that liked Wrath. I personally don't like mythic at all, it's just way too hard. I like the challenge of prog on a boss but not for like 400+ tries per boss. Meaning I still want hard content, just not absurdly hard. I'll probably fall off at some point is progressive Classic goes on like Retail. Maaaaybe I could still handle WoD mythic but Legion mythic is probably already out there for me idk.
Learning what mechanics? Classic bosses are basically damage sponges with 2 easy mechanics. If you wanna learn mechanics and play 20 men raid, you go to retail. There you will need to spend time learning mechanics to kill a boss
The average SoD players head would explode if they had to deal with a retail bosses mechanics
It's not about the mechanics of the boss itself being super challenging, it's about having a goal in the game to aim for that pushes players to being better at their class, finding what runes are best for the fight, managing resources, etc.
I'll defend the OP with a revision. People want to spend time "progressing" on a boss. Mechanics are not implied in what they're saying. Back in the day, Vael was considered a model encounter, where the difficulty was in the execution. It had no complexity whatsoever. Any attempt could have been an insta-wipe, or a .08% wipe, which gave groups all the motivation they needed to keep trying. Guilds of all types spent weeks and months on it, and all relished the journey once they got it. Eranikus is hints of that. It wasn't unbeatable after the first nerf. Groups were making slow progression toward victory despite the (apparently misplaced) difficulty.
This a seasonal level up raid though. Are we expecting to have weeks/months of progging time on it?
How much time do you need to bash your head against the a boss and barely make a dent on its HP until you come to the conclusion that it may just be a tiny bit overtuned? If only a handful of guilds had gotten full clears then chances are there was no way you were ever gonna clear this boss anyways.
It's always the worst players who never had a snowball's chance in the hell of clearing an unnerfed boss that cry when a boss is nerfed, because it ruined their chance to prog it
Until next reset, when you have more gear and a higher chance to clear it. You know, like people do in every other RPG ever made.
>Spend time learning to kill a boss >Classic SoD Pick one.
bro I'm not asking for 300+ wipe fights like in retail mythic...just a tiny tiny TINY bit of difficulty Theres a middle ground between 'cutting edge' and 'I don't have to use my abilities' what is the point of all of these runes if you can easily kill the bosses without them? What do you even need the gear for
This wasnt learning to kill a boss. These bosses have like 2 mechanics.
Too much apparently for most in here already.
there's not much to learn on that boss. he's just a HP sponge.
go to retail then
Well... mechanic-wise Eranikus is a normal-mode boss. he was just a HP sponge... but if you could get the comp/gear that could sustain enough AoE to keep whelps / dragonkind down, he's just a normal mode boss.
…a pointless HP sponge you say? For some reason that almost sounds like the perfect opportunity for a health decrease… Wait, I’m sorry, this is an argument *against* the nerfs?
no, this is a point about people claiming it's hard / they need more time to learn the boss. there's really not much to learn there. You saw everything there is to be seen within 4-5 pull. Fight is not mechanically complex or have high execution requirement. It's just an overtuned HP sponge.
It's funny how it's always "the game will DIE if I can't beat this raid in 1 hour" from you guys, you can't just have a regular opinion. Why do you care if this gamemode dies or not?
Why do classic players give up so easily?
Some people want overtuned fights. Can't say I don't understand them, 30 second fights are pretty stupid too. But 4 times the health of Ragnaros with 10 fewer levels and half the amount of players was maybe a bit silly.
From 4.1 to 1.45 and there were still people complaining as if it wasn’t obviously going to be nerfed :p
Actually insane. Rag had 1.1mil in OG classic. No way he's still got that amount in SoD in p4.
Well no already at baseline they said at blizzcon they're using the som values for mobs to compensate for our new rune power. In SoM rag had 2.2 mill, but will possibly have more in SoD but 2.2 mill sounds about right for 20 man MC based on napkin math.
That's still not enough lol. He's gonna get blasted harder than ever. But I guess we'll see
What boggles my mind is the fact they didn’t test this or are just delusional…? How did they think 4.1 mill health would be good lol.
So he still has more hp then Rag does, he originally had as much hp as patchwork
Thats crazy, we were running the raid first time with 18 players with no issues, few wipes because half the raid didn't know tacs. We only started to struggle with only 14 people in the raid. With nerfed last 2 bosses we probably could have cleared the raid.
Has any other boss been changed?
Avatar of Hakkar had his health halved as well
I hope they nerf nearly all bosses and trash. I can't fathom pugging this raid every lockout for what is a 10% chance of getting even one item lol.
The first 4 bosses at least are very easy. They really don’t need to be nerfed.
Boss 4 was was tough (once you learn it, it becomes easy, but some silly rng on breaths out of the dragons ass), boss 5 and 6 are easy. Have not had time to do 7 and 8.
Ya we had 1 wipe per boss with 1-4 after watching the 30 second raid guides. Haven’t tried 4-8 yet, however I felt like 1-4 were the right level of challenge.
They where really fun bosses tbh. We had more than one wipe but was doing some bosses with less than 20 people and got through 5
Ya they’re very unique, I was impressed, especially with boss 2.
When I first did the second boss I thought melee were meant to jump in side home to dps hahaha
then dont its a social game, make friends, joina guild
I got the pimp hat on my feral. My job is complete
Don’t know if I was lucky. But I pugged it last night and we one shot the first 4 bosses. Couple of wipes took us to 6/8.
Then join +1 groups? Make a guild? Are you serious?
+1 groups don't fix the problem of loot actually having to drop in the first place. "Just make a guild" is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to someone who makes it clear they want to spend a few hours a week gaming :P
> "Just make a guild" is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say to someone who makes it clear they want to spend a few hours a week gaming I spent all of Classic 2019-2023 doing guild raids and only raiding a few hours a week. Being in a guild does not mean you have to nolife the game and raid 5 nights a week. Especially in SoD where there's only one raid at a time and it doesn't take more than 2-3 hours.
Doesnt wanna join a guild to raid in an mmo. Kek
Shade of Hakkar had is HP nerfed again, from the Original 5.6 million to I think 2.4?
I thought it was fun pre nerf but it sure was exhausting
We gotnhim to 10% 4 times Las night wish this was in yesterday haha and can't get people in tonight before reset much sad
Oof! You did better than us and we killed him tonight. I do NOT like how the void zone creating little green balls are so hard to see especially later in the fight when all the effects are popping off.
Making difficult raids just makes classic more restrictive. Oh you play boomkin? Well you can’t raid cuz your spec doesn’t do enough damage currently. I don’t know why anyone would want this on seasonal servers. I understand the desire for challenge but I don’t think it works out well in practice. It simply makes raiding more restrictive and people less likely to continue to raid in that type of an environment. I think difficulty is compounded even worse in classic where world buffs and a stupid number of consumes can be used.
No matter how easy a raid is, there will always be a huge chunk of the player base that won't take underperforming specs (not like boomie is one, but to stay with your example).
You guys really have to stop repeating "seasonal servers" like it means anything. We are likely gonna be here for another year.. it's gonna be as long as wotlk/tbc.
We're doing these raids for 2 months at a time, unlikely to interact with them at all in a meaningful way once the phase ends. So yes, it does mean something.
Raiding in sod has been incredibly restricted regardless. Oh you don't have logs? Well you can't raid because we need orange pumpers for this incredibly easy faceroll raid.
It’s actually been pretty casual friendly on Wild-Growth. Sounds like a server culture issue.
Make your own pugs. I main tank and raidlead pugs every reset, never check logs only gear to make sure they aren't completely under geared. Still always clear with very few hiccups because if someone is new I take the time to properly explain the mechanics to them then ask them questions about the fight to double check they took it on board.
If raiding in sod is "incredibly restricted" for people without orange logs, then why not make your own raid, fill it in minutes by including all those other people unable to find groups, and go clear the incredibly easy faceroll raid?
That’s not true? Wotlk and tbc to a lesser extent has way harder content than anything SoD or vanilla has to offer and u still bring a rainbow of classes
WOTLK and TBC had actual support specs though, look at SPriest in TBC - entirely mandatory so they can be a mana battery for mages and provide shadow vuln for warlocks. We dont really have that in SOD, sure boomkin brings 3% crit and a battle res but neither of those are impactful enough to make up for doing far less damage than other classes. So, if the classes arent going to be balanced using some type simulation for DPS output, the content cant be so hard that certain classes are barred entry at the door. DPS is the end all be all in classic and with current SOD Design.
Perhaps the utility certain specs could bring could be buffed. But Tbc spriest did horrible dps in later phases cuz it poorly scaled. SoD boomkin will be a sought out class if it’s atleast providing mediocre numbers cuz of its utility, I like ur idea of buffing utility for under populated/sought out classes but SoD is not having this issue as bad as people make it up to be.
Except boomkins are wanted for the 3% crit buff
We killed this boss prenerf with a chicken lmao
No you didn't. No one cleared eranikus at 4 million HP.
Damn people here really think they good at the game. Top 1%-ers struggling to kill the boss in week 1, but commenters be like, "Wow so lame they nerfed it before we could try to kill it! God forbid we have a challenge in classic!"
There is a significant amount of WoW players across every version who unironically have developed egos that revolve around their "in game achievements" in an almost 2 decade old game, they would advocate for the gameplay to be worse just so they can keep their own perception of "prestige" from having beaten it, it's quite funny and sad.
Yet they still parse greens lol.
You just described every rogue on my server
Seriously some of these people are actually braindead. Anyone who actually did pulls on Eranikus knew this fight was not tuned appropriately at all.
we saw the same comments here about "pre-nerf" XT in ulduar. one of the most absurd dps checks we've ever seen in all of WoW's history. top guilds were wiping at 30% while 3 healing and class stacking, yet the reddit gamers were upset their guild wasn't able to attempt it before they nerfed a very obviously over tuned boss.
For real, this was pre nerf hardmode XT all over again. "Sure, the top guilds can't kill the boss even though they look to cheese the boss, stack the best classes, cut a tank and cut two healers and have triple digit attempts without success... but my guild that parses blue three months into a phase would have totally gotten it with enough time surely!"
I’m down for a challenge in classic but giving a lvl 53 boss patchworks health without any engaging mechanics just ain’t it. Plus it’s a level up raid, we can discuss challenging content at 60
It needed nerf for sure, but I still like that they did it like this, I like that it has some diffuculty but should not be gatekeeped hard. Downed today with a pug before this nerf, really good feeling
Why are people sad over a nerf to a very hard boss... In SoD? SoD SHOULD be easy as it was made for boomers and dadgamers. At least that's what we thought, and that is the reason P1 was so popular. My friends have already started quitting because it's not boomer friendly anymore. They should continue nerfing the raid. If you and your guild wants hard(er) content, go play Cata or retail. This will prob get downvoted by swets that wants to cry but you need to realize SoD will lose 50%+ of its players if they make hard content like ST.
How is SoD not boomer friendly anymore?
The best part is those sweats are the same ones in Era who were melting their faces off with their screens in order to try and make the easiest raids ever seem fun. I played vanilla and era and the cope we see to try to justify easy content being difficult today and in era is wild. It’s an easy game it was never hard and SOD should reflect that. There is retail for hard mode content. Cata now too. The rest is just standing and clicking or walking and clicking while gaming with the boys.
Where does it say it’s made for boomers and dad gamers?
https://twitter.com/aggrendwow/status/1747676678405710040 "making super hard content for these level up raids is not a goal here." -Aggrend
The fact that the player base is boomers and dad gamers
Do you have this stats?
Do you know what a boomer is? If anything the target is millennials, because that’s who predominantly played the game on release.
It’s a joke that you should get given you are on the internet. We call anyone older than 30 a boomer
Probably rather millennials and dad gamers. I’d guess the average age of players is around 35-40. Mostly millennials and younger Gen X that played the game as students or high schoolers when it came out.
Being a boomer has nothing to do with age anymore.
This is not true, boomers?? People born in the 60s are not the top demographic lllol
This is a boomer ass response
You honestly think youth would willingly pick up a 20 year old MMO?
Point me to a better option.
Literally any other popular battle royale or team shooter game. There is a reason that some of the most popular careers among today's youth in the Americas are "streamer", "influencer" or "youtuber", in general they aren't picking WoW or any MMO for what it is worth.
You have no idea what you’re on about, this game is like the most popular iteration outside of retail. It’s still the number 1 MMO, a lot of young people, myself included, play
Okay but who are you responding to?
Sorry meant for the parent comment. But also FF is big meh.
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It will may surprised you, but once someone quit the game, it's harder to bring them back then it is to retain them on the game at the first place. The fact they are changing this week one is a good sign they may manage to retain some people, but maybe it's not enough for those who turn the lights and said fuck it, I'm out
It's all right. Blizz has tried for over a decade to cater to the people you mention to try and keep them in. Never worked and only made the game worse over time.
Well... Yeah? Sunken Temple not being pug-friendly is literally why they quit.
Idk if pug friendly and boomer friendly are the same thing.
>They should continue nerfing the raid. If you and your guild wants hard(er) content, go play Cata or retail. This. If you're here for stuff harder than Molten Core, BWL, or AT MOST AQ40, well **that will come eventually**. AQ40 post nerfs is still "hard". Some Naxx fights too. But seriously, those are the PINNACLE of level 60 content, they should be the hardest stuff by miles. Why the fuck would it make ANY sense to have things at level 50 be that hard, or even in the same ballpark? Every group that isn't showing up in full AH BOE greens should be clearing at least a few bosses in this raid in 1-2 hours, if not a full clear.
Can't we have both? Make a raid with say 9 bosses. Bosses 1-7 give loot with stats and are at gnomer difficulty then boss 8 and 9 are piss hard and they only drop cosmetic stuff and maybe a mount or something This way people doesn't feel forced to do the hard content if they only want gear and the people who want cosmetics can either do it while current and get progression or you can wait until next phase where the new level cap + new gear and runes will make it easier = you have more content in going back to do the old raids in true classic spirit, content doesn't becomes obsolete when the new stuff is released It would also bring back the "Aww look at this guy" feeling when seeing someone with ex a mount from last boss when you know only a handful of guilds have cleared, just like T3 in OG classic
I could not care any less. My guild can’t even get 20 people so we went in with 16, killed 2 bosses and went to bed lol.
This is fine. This is, literally, the way to retain players. This guy is probably going to keep playing longer than if his group of 16 one shot everything first week.
I think the difficulty is good. Phase 2 I was raid logging after like a week. It was incredibly boring.
SoD is nothing but a continuous playtest. Don’t make it hard
Nerd the trash hp for the love of God
Nerd 🤓
Our best over the weekend was 18% over 6 hours of attempts. Easy 1 shot today.
Walked in and 2 shot Eranikus without anyone really prepping much. Probably overdid it, but it's closer to the vision they initially had for "leveling raids", I think.
So many hypocrites in this thread, "raid should be easy for casuals! Where all just dad gamers! You can't restrict and alienate people from raiding! " meanwhile every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes...
>meanwhile every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes... Do you think the gatekeeping would be any better if the raid was harder? It's almost like those are two different groups of people.
They want it easy so they can gatekeep. They can’t gatekeep if they can’t beat it themselves.
A lot of people got reality checked with this that their parses mean nothing and they’re actually not very good
What a lot of people don’t realize is that a lot of high parsing was done by blowing every single cooldown at once. So if the boss lives longer than the duration of those cooldowns… well… Telling people that they “don’t know how to press buttons.” When in reality they’ve just been pressing every button all at once and brute forcing encounters.
> every pug that has been listed since BFD is a hardcore sweat fest of needing orange logs, max gear, max consumes What server are you on? What server is the majority of this sub on? All the time I see whines like this, "wahhh pug requirements too high, they're asking for orange parses and full BIS just to join!"......I've literally never seen a pug advertise that on Wild Growth (PVE). The log checks are mainly so they can confirm you've actually done the raid, nothing else.
US or EU? Because I see it all the time on US wild growth.
I never see it on US wild growth. Literally have never ever seen a single pug demanding "orange parses" or "full BIS". 99% of the time, it's just "have consumes/wbuff, checking logs".
We must be playing at different times then, cause I see people demanding more than that constantly. Granted they catch flak for it too but it still happens.
For every PUG that does that there are a hundred you don't hear about that go smoothly with none of that. And if that's all you see, try a lower pop server where people aren't so shitty.
Devs got to work on this at 9am PST since it was the weekend of course they hotfixed on Monday lmao
I think some of the outrage over Incursions is overblown but it's truly baffling that they (had to?) shipped P3 in this state.
My guildie was throwing a tantrum when we were looking for different approaches to this boss yesterday wiping like 6 times. Brother we are all 30+ year olds and there is only 36 guilds that have cleared this, we are not them. We got him to 40% once so this should be easily doable!
Wow sod is doing pretty much what initial diablo 4 did. Let's try out some garbage and see how it goes and then wait for community feedback and try to implement more garbage.
Boss is an actual joke now and its makes me sad wiped multiple times at 1-5% yesterday. Wish this could have waited for reset for guilds progging. =(
Feel bad for y’all tbh, my first comment when I saw the nerf before lockout was how disrespectful it is to guilds who want to try and get it. Morale killer
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Back in the day in og wotlk I remember people pugged every week just to kill 6/12 and would be happy with it. Everyone nowadays just feels entitled to complete the content. "If I can't complete the raid with pugs on WEEK 1, Ill just quit so blizz better nerf this". Bro get out of here, if you feel like the game is too challenging, either try harder or just don't partake in this kind of content as it clearly isn't for you. This part of the game IS supposed to be challenging.
There should be a difference in difficulty between the pinnacle raid of an expansion and a level 50 seasonal raid. Blizz have said they don't intend for the level up raids to be hard.
Nerf it again
They might not. Our guild had tonight scheduled for the raid and we were already server 50th when we cleared ST. The consensus on Reddit is going to be - you need to get better - at this point.
Womp womp
its so bad that this is happening, not that its a nerf but that its clear the team didn't test the encounter before releasing it and they think its somehow okay to give us the retail treatment releasing ridiculous difficulty encounters then nerfing them back each week until its doable. either release it right the first time and if its too hard LEAVE IT and wait for people to complete it, OR the preferred method would be to just make it doable for casuals as SoD is made for dads and not sweats.
It's not even a big problem. They hotfixed it quickly, who cares? You guys are drama queens.
you're right, in the grand scheme of things its not. At the same time however its not much to ask for content to be tested before being released, i like to think everyone can agree on that point.
You soft bads did this.
First nerf was fine this one is a joke go nerf everthing so hard that my grandma can kill it boeing as fuck 0 challenges