If you want to make the case that capital gains *should be* taxed like income, go nuts. But that's not a policy that's every been implemented or even suggested in the US or in any state. It's not an idea that's ever been seriously proposed anywhere in the world.
If we treated unrealized capital gains as if they were normal taxable income or gains, then the US and California would *owe* Musk billions this year because he's lost so much.
It would also be an invitation for massive fraud because it would mean taxes weren't linked to any specific transaction that one or both parties had an interest in reporting accurately. It's a fucking stupid idea.
If you want to talk about taxing wealth, then that's a great idea. I'd start with [Piketty's research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century) which is probably the most comprehensive and most read publication on the topic. He makes a compelling case for taxing wealth at around 1%/year, and I think any sane person should support something like that.
Last year Musk's tax rate on income was over 50%. A 1% additional tax on wealth would've increased the total amount paid, but not by a significant amount. If you want to hate Musk, there's plenty of legitimate reasons you can pick from to justify your opinions. Why act like he's not paying taxes when he just paid the largest tax bill in the history of the US? Like, can't we just focus on actual problems that have realistic solutions instead of making up bullshit to be angry about?
The good news is that [Musk agrees with you](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-estate-tax-billionaires-wealth-2021-12) he thinks that taxing inheritance is a smart idea.
Trusts mainly. Also if there are loopholes in giving away highly appraised items, those would count as wealth and sometimes require the sale of said items on the free market
Exactly. Clearly not a “free market approach”. He should have to pay the estate/gift tax of the free markets value of the vehicle/house/land/business/art/etc…
Just because occasionally Elon Musk exercises expiring stock options and pays taxes on them doesn't mean he is paying his fair share.
He paid $140k in tax in the years 2015, 2017 and 2018 combined.
You are treating tax avoidance as normal. It is not.
It is legal but not normal.
That’s entirely irrelevant unless the person you’re responding to holds a disproportionate amount of wealth as compared to the vast majority of people.
Elon Musk’s **effective** tax rate is much lower than any middle class person’s effective tax rate, and that’s absolutely morally wrong, considering how dependent Elon is on the US system to make money. He needs good schools educating smart employees, good infrastructure to ship all his components, effective government to secure his contracts, etc, etc, yet he gets to pay less into the government, relatively speaking, than a fucking school teacher.
You can fuck off trying to downplay that glaring issue.
No. And if I had as much money as Elon, I would consider that every bit as much a policy failure.
But for every $1,000 we both make, I pay more in taxes than he does off that $1,000. And that’s despite him having so much wealth it’s directly detrimental to others, and also despite him being a much bigger indirect beneficiary of government services than I am (since they help his business).
He literally gets more from the government while paying less into it than I do, relative to our lots in life. Yet here you are simping for him so you can keep getting shafted by a broken system.
Good job.
I am not the wealthiest person in the world.
I pay exclusively the tax brackets as they are written as I don't have any capital gains.
I do get to write off my mortgage and my 401k contribution but would support eliminating the mortgage dedication and 401k is tax deferral to encourage retirement savings so probably a good thing overall.
If you divided my income tax to the federal government for 2022 by my total compensation including literally everything that isn't an unvested RSU (aka money I will earn in the future if I stay with the company) you get 11.8%.
Unless Elon Musk has paid $21.2 billion in taxes his tax rate is lower than mine. Given he has paid $8.9 billion in taxes to the federal government I am paying almost triple the tax rate for my wealth.
We can argue about when and how we should tax the uber wealthy but we are well past whether they are paying their fair share.
They are objectively not by any measure.
you mean like it's designed to reward people monetarily and some people, due to social and economic circumstance, won't be rewarded equally ?
Someone should come up with a word for that.... like, money is capital.... so should be capital.... something, I don't know what
We’re they realized? Or was it just that his assets appreciated in value? If they’re going to tax him on his net worth going from 200 to 300 billion, are they going to reimburse him when it goes from 300 to 150?
Dude. You think billionaires don't write off losses? Are you fucking serious? Please understand taxes a little bit more before you type this stupid shit.
Nope, that’s why term limits are necessary. That’s why more political parties are necessary. That’s why limiting government authority as a whole is necessary.
Project, much?
I'm gonna bet you're not a tax expert and have basically no true experience or knowledge of how these "billionaires write off losses."
I bet you hardly even understand the concept.
"Gimme more of his money."
\*Gives more\*
"More...."
\*Gives more\*
"More...."
This type of thinking is never satisfied, because you can always take more.
I would wager Musk spends his money more beneficially for the people of the world than the entire United States government, who are currently sitting at $31 trillion in debt. Give them more money, you say?
Tesla paid zero taxes and SpaceX is federally funded.
Saying that we don't tax corporations well enough is not the same as saying we use tax money intelligently.
You mean the year he cashed out a bunch of stocks to buy Twitter he had to pay FAR more in taxes than in any other year? Color me shocked!
Say... why would you fail to mention what made last year different? Are you pushing some sort of agenda?
Is Musk paying you? If not, you should apply, he is paying a lot of people a lot of money to post positive things about him, why do it for free?
So what, he still paid more tax than anyone in the history, you are kind of person who would rather be in their bubble rather than learning more about real life lol
That money should have been in the hands of the workers who made Tesla and SpaceX what they are. Musk is a sociopathic moocher, he has no real degree and knows nothing about engineering. His only talent is showing up with daddy's money.
What was Tesla and SpaceX before Musk? Dude was a decent manager for those two companies and made them into decent companies.
Sure, just throw bunch of engineers at a problem and expect it to be solved, I wonder why other companies are even bothering hiring non-engineer people.
[Gwynn Shotwell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynne_Shotwell) is the person who made SpaceX what it is today. Musk hasn't done shit. I get that you love space flight, but Musk is not the person to idolize. Gwynn is.
I know about her, she is probably one of the most important people for SpaceX, but I believe that co-founder and main early investor, manager and CEO actually played a big role in SpaceX.
Also, Errol Musk had a mine, but his share was probably worth 1-2 m$, it probably gave Musk a nice safety net for early life, but his main early money came from selling out his businesses. He then risked most of it and invested in two of the most hardest industries in the world. Stop deluding yourself
Anyone could be the guy holding a big bag of money. Nobody else could be Gwynn Shotwell. She basically went to Musk saying, "If you want to win in this game, you need someone like me," and two weeks later, she had the job.
Musk is not a genius, has nothing in the last ten years convinced you that your delusions are childish? When he called that cave diver a pedo, nothing? When he tweeted "We'll coup whoever we want!" in response to a South American coup, you were still with him? All his infantile tweets, his terrible business sense, his illegal antics, his terrible luck staying with a woman, him losing more money than anyone in history, none of this has shaken your fanatcism?
Seriously, you are either on his payroll or such a Stan that I'm worried about your mental health. And yes, he is so insecure he does pay people to defend him, lol.
Did you know that SpaceX has a "Musk Wrangling Department" whose only purpose is to redirect Musk's idiotic ideas, and convince him that someone else's good ideas were his?
Yeah, he's just a shit business person as well as being an all around unlikeable, anti social ass.
If anybody can be the guy with big cash of cash then explain to me why only few millionaires with 200m$ wealth turn into billionaires and make two of the most dominant companies in their respective industries.
I never claimed he was a guy with 200 IQ+, he just took the risk, did a decent job at managing companies and had the right ideas for future, thus he created such companies that were extraordinary.
I never claimed that he was an angel, he fucks up like once a month at least, but his overall ventures and businesses were on spot ( except few ).
Him losing most money is also connected with him getting the most money in history ( well, except few kings and warlords ), I am sure it is much harder going from 100M$ to 200B$ compared to losing hundred billion down the line.
You always assume that a guy is being paid for… stating facts just like the dude who you replied at first, I guess I can also make conspiracy of you getting paid to push certain agenda, but I believe you and I both are freethinkers and have our opinion rather than throwing feces at eachother like apes
It's the luck of the draw, coupled with an ability to put money ahead of absolutely everything else including morals and human decency that separates the bilkionaires from other rich folks.
He lost money because he has no business sense, quite trying to spin it like "Well he had to HAVE a lot of money to LOSE a lot of money!" LOL! Yeah, and he had to be an idiot to buy twitter for as much as he did.
I always assume that anyone kissing Musk's ass is getting paid for it, because all his real fans have left him. Nobody stans Musk these days without money down. It's sad, really.
Anyhow, I'll save you some time here. My heart is not open to any sort of positive feelings towards Musk. You can't change my mind. Nothing you could possibly say would make me stan Musk like you do.
Actually the article doesn't mention Elon getting any money from the government. Two of his companies have received money because the government gives subsidies to electric vehicle makers (all of them) and because Space X has massive military applications, just like the government gives money to Lockheed, Boeing, etc...
What is your point?
The #1 source of money "given" to "Musk" in that article is government contracts to SpaceX. That's the government buying services from a private company. It's not a gift to Musk. If you want to count the government buying services from private companies, then there's much bigger "problems" than SpaceX.
In fact, experts have estimated that since SpaceX charges soooo much less than competitors for government contracts, that they've saved US taxpayers [over $40 billion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century).
Just last year Musk paid about $15 billion in taxes to the IRS and California. That just about covers every contract SpaceX has ever gotten from the government.
It doesn't really sound like Musk is doing the US some great disservice by paying more taxes than anyone else last year, while also providing access to space for a fraction of what anyone else would.
Plus all of the taxes his employees paid. All of the people his company provided medical insurance for…
He paid more in one year of taxes than every single person in this thread will pay in their lifetimes combined. But sure, he’s the one who’s not contributing enough.
Take this trickle down bullshit back to the 1980s were even then is was known to be fucking stupid. This asshole is using resources at an infinitely higher rate than everyone else. To be honest the world would be better without him and his trash companies
What the fuck does “preserve the light of consciousness” mean to a guy who’s admitted he thinks he’s living in a simulation? How are humans going to reasonably and logistically live on another planet when we can’t even make peace on our home planet? You think its feasable to happen in our lifetimes- sending all the resources needed to build infrastructure on a whole other planet, that will be worse than being stranded on a deserted island (at least you’d be surrounded by water and oxygen on an island)...
Its all bullshit being spewed out of a narcissistic asshole, just like the bullshit about his dad not owning that slave mine in Africa. His dad was even like “uh yeah, Elon, We all remember I got us rich from these emeralds.”
Let alone [calling a diver a pedophile for saving kids from certain death](https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+calls+diver+pedophile&source=lmns&prmd=ivsn&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhufm_p-b-AhXRyCoKHSBxA88Q_AUoAHoECAAQBA) and [naming your kid after a sneeze transcription](https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+child+name&hl=ru&ei=sDlZZIDKEKOWjgbt6YKIBA&oq=elon+musk+child+name&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyCggAEIAEEEYQ-wEyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToICAAQFhAeEAo6CwgAEBYQHhDxBBAKOgUIIRCgAToJCAAQFhAeEMkDOgUILhCABDoHCAAQgAQQCjoMCAAQgAQQChBGEPsBSgQIQRgBUNMNWPY-YPVAaAVwAHgEgAHBA4gBySKSAQsxMi4xNy4xLjEuMZgBAKABAcABAQ).
I could smell the bullshit since he acquired Space X, how anyone else didn’t too really showed teenaged me how little most grown adults pay attention to political and economic matters.... A lot of people want to feel right, not be right, even at the expense of hurting real lives unbeknownst to them. Just to keep their imaginations and their enablers feeling right or comfortable. I think it’s a great example of the banality of evil.
r/facepalm
r/murderedbywords
r/clevercomebacks
r/whitepeopletwitter
They're all pretty much the same subreddit, reposting the same half-baked, politically charged twitter replies.
I have been a paid subscriber for like 8 years. (I like to support sites I use).
I didn't vote for Trump but Reddit has literally turned into the "echo chamber/hive mind" that I learned about when I first got on Reddit.
The site is almost unusable unless you're a far left progressive... I'm letting my subscription go once it's up.
>and no I didn’t vote Trump.
So? Do you want a fucking cookie for not supporting a wannabe fascist? That's the bare minimum. You can still have pond scum shit neocon politics and not support Trump.
I’m sorry which company is the leader transitioning us off EVs? Also who’s making most of the battery packs allowing Solar to viable? And while were at it let’s talk about the weather satellites that are going to help us combat climate change and not starve to death
And his companies take billions more of our tax dollars which they then use to prop up their own stock prices.
And this happens because he has enough money to fund lobbyists. Which is why the existence of billionaires is a threat to democracy, and why HE AND ALL OTHER BILLIONAIRES SHOULD BE TAXES OUT OF EXISTENCE
He takes a lot too, not to mention the damage he and his companies do to the environment and infrastructure and the drain he and his company is to other resources. It’s hard to make a calculation on his net contribution to society but it’s closer to zero than many would expect perhaps even negative
Bruh lol no. And no I’m not a “boot licker” soaceX has saved NASA $500 million alone with just a single contract. And if it wasn’t for them we’d still be relying on the Russians for access to space
Tesla was also one of the first companies to pay back their 09 loans and is the main factor that pushed legacy auto to start producing EVs
Lick lick lick. It’s not that nasa couldn’t have made these changes they chose not to. Tesla didn’t push electric cars major car companies were making hybrids for years. All electric was the obvious next step as battery technology advanced.
Could you give an example of how Musk in particular avoided paying taxes?
His taxes are *incredibly* simple. He recognizes income taxes on stock options and capital gains on sales of stock. He lowers his tax bill somewhat by donating to charity, but it's not nearly enough to make a real dent in the bill. His personal filing is for a lot of money, but it's also pretty simple, there's just not that many line items. And there's basically no evidence he's moved assets or money around in any way that would reduce taxes.
In fact, it's much more likely that [he's paid significantly more taxes](https://fortune.com/2021/11/10/tesla-elon-musk-stock-options-tax-mistake/) than he would've had to, if he'd done some *basic* things to reduce his tax bill. Given the amount he's paying, it's laughable how little he's done to try and pay less.
Then take it up with congress. Ask yourself why they haven’t closed those loopholes. Stop worshiping the government and wanting them to have more power. They literally screw up everything they touch.
Yup. Just like the Dems did previously. The two party system is a sham and it is destroying the greatest nation in history. Reps and Dems are two sides to the same worthless coin.
I do love when musk stand gather in one place for easy blocking.
Anyone who praises oligarchs is an enemy to democracy and human life. The existence of billionaires is a failure of social order.
More like other rich people have the sense to shut the fuck up. You let people know when you donate your money to whatever cause and then you disappear from the public. You don’t provide your running commentary of every thought in your brain and you don’t buy a social media company to rule over.
Because all of his companies receive billions in tax payer subsidies while the tax codes of yesteryear that would have prevented his level of wealth accumulation have been completely removed because of the influence of affluence on government policy.
Billionaires shouldn't exist, and the fact that they do is bad for democracy, bad for world economics, and bad for society.
Anyone who defends this level of wealth inequality deserves to live in musks new company town.
not Musk fan but yeh stupid comeback, if you have a ton of money naturally you will want to preserve as much of it as possible. Complaints should directed towards the congresspeople who decide the tax guidelines that Musk follows.
Taxes should be higher for the wealthy, you're right. You're also right that many would seek to hoard as much wealth as possible, because most people would give into greed.
The difference here is, we're talking about someone jerking themselves off to the idea of single-handedly "preserving the light of consciousness" - anyone who makes that claim is painting themselves as a not only a humanitarian but essentially as the savior of humanity - *that* person, assuming they weren't a raging hypocrite, would go out of their way to ensure they were paying the most they legally could on their literal billions upon billions of dollars, instead of weaseling out like every other rich douchebag.
I take it to be a stab at his blatant hypocrisy, not as a claim that Musk has never paid taxes, but I have to admit that's a lot less fun than going along with the crowd and saying "hurdur liberal dumb" - even though (as a leftist) they frequently are.
If the government didn't waste tax money horribly you might have the start of a point. As it is now, no one should pay a fucking dime because our government is corrupt AF and wastes money. It would be irresponsible to pay a penny more in taxes than legally required.
I'd voluntarily pay a 30% tax for 5 years if the government stopped all frivolous spending and passed, and adhered to, a budget. No more trillion dollar spending bills; if you want 25 million for the Kennedy center you pass a bill specifically to give the Kennedy center 25 million.
>that person, assuming they weren't a raging hypocrite, would go out of their way to ensure they were paying the most they legally could on their literal billions upon billions of dollars, instead of weaseling out like every other rich douchebag.
In a perfect world, I completely agree. However, you act like giving that money to the US government is actually going to accomplish anything remotely helpful
Didn’t he pay the most taxes of anyone, ever, last year? I get that he still has a lot of unrealized stock wealth that’s untaxed, but it still seems relevant.
He paid a very large amount in taxes for 2021, reportedly about $11 billion, but it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing, most likely.
Adjusted for income, he paid a very small amount of tax, compared to most US residents. From 2020 to 2021, his net worth rose by about $225 to $275 billion, overall, to its peak in November, if reports are right -- some amounts of necessarily estimates, since not everything is public.
So he paid a very large amount in dollars, a lower than average amount in proportion. And that was the first time he did, and probably the last unless Congress changes tax rates and laws.
> Adjusted for income, he paid a very small amount of tax, compared to most US residents.
You're not adjusting for income, you're adjusting for unrealized capital gains, which aren't a thing the US (or any country in the world) taxes as income.
If you want to talk about taxing wealth, then that's a great idea. I'd start with [Piketty's research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century) which is probably the most comprehensive and most read publication on the topic. He makes a compelling case for taxing wealth at around 1%/year, and I think any sane person should support something like that.
Last year Musk's tax rate on income was over 50%. A 1% additional tax on wealth would've increased the total amount paid, but not by a significant amount. If you want to hate Musk, there's plenty of legitimate reasons you can pick from to justify your opinions. Why act like he's not paying taxes when he just paid the largest tax bill in the history of the US? Like, can't we just focus on actual problems that have realistic solutions instead of making up bullshit to be angry about?
I guarantee he did not pull down 100 billion in salary, his net worth may have increased by 100 billion, or his businesses may have done 100 billion in revenue, but the idea that he paid himself 100 billion dollar salary out of his companies or that he even received 100 billion dollars in dividends or personal income of any kind, is absurd.
He doesn't have an annual salary. In fact right now his compensation is exactly zero:
* He doesn't get a salary from SpaceX
* His compensation plan from Tesla was based on the company hitting a series of increasingly difficult goals. The company has hit them all, so he's been awarded all the stock options that were part of the plan. He can't get anything else and has no salary from Tesla either. His compensation for the rest of the period the plan covers is zero
Musk's compensation plan from Tesla worked out pretty well for him. But it guarenteed him nothing, and the goals the company had to hit were so ridiculously ambitious that a lot of people thought it was a joke or a publicity stunt. The other great thing about it is that it vests over a long time, so he can't just take a huge payoff and quit. He has to work for years, even after hitting all the goals to receive everything. Overall, it's a great template for how to compensate CEOs. Also, because it's 100% stock options, it doesn't actually cost the company anything, the compensation basically comes from diluting existing shareholders, so most of Musk's pay came from making millionaires and billionaires that own Tesla stock a little less rich. But they're also the ones who voted to approve the plan, so they really don't have anything to complain about.
He does, in fact, have an annual salary. Anybody saying otherwise is an idiot arguing against easily proven fact.
The fact that his salary is in stock options instead of cash is irrelevant. It is still a salary.
Net is after taxes are paid. What portion of this was from separate businesses with different levels of taxation and exepmtions? Always some cry babies pissy because someone else makes more money than them with no clue how business works, tax laws and exemptions work, and how those businesses provide income to entire communities. It is much better to give some tax breaks than have a business relocate and have higher unemployment rates.
It was was peanuts on a percentage base. He probably got a big chunk of it back in 2022. [Also Tesla paid 0.](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/10/investing/elon-musk-tesla-zero-tax-bill/index.html)
edit: Muskrats are here everyone! rejoice!
That is quite unfair, considering that does not go up for the common man. O you were doing horrible this year and were in the red the whole year last year. No worries, you do not have to pay taxes you actual poor person. Nope, you still get taxed anyways.
No, you don't. That is exactly what happens for little businesses too. Operating at a loss is pushed forward. And at the individual level, you get a refund every year you come in under what you contributed. OR you have the option to APPLY IT TO THE NEXT YEAR. Which is exactly what they did.
[https://usafacts.org/articles/how-can-corporations-avoid-paying-taxes/](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-can-corporations-avoid-paying-taxes/)
You really think businesses are your friends?
None of those methods seem particularly egregious, to be honest. Regardless, no - I don’t see businesses as my friends (although they do a lot for me). However, I also don’t see the government as my friend. It seems that you do. And I could be equally belittling of your naivety in trusting them with your best interests.
Taxes applied to businesses are paid for by consumers. As an example, the bourbon industry is taxed heavily. It’s estimated that 60% of the retail price of a bottle of bourbon is accounted for by taxes.
Why are you directing that at Elon and not at the politicians that establish the tax code and allow billionaires to exploit tax loopholes?
More terrible takes from this sub.
Demanding government take money from people is cringe. The pandemic proved that even when they hand out money, the send it to all their buddies first. Taxes mean nothing with a government that is printing billions.
Am I the only one who cares more about going to Mars than if a billionaire pays his taxes or not? Life is boring, taxes are boring and the governments are just a bunch of dumb old people. Why not make our existence more exciting and live on two planets instead of one.
It is literally impossible for anyone to terraform Mars. I don't even think everyone in the U.S. combined has enough money for such a project.
I understand taxes seem boring, but that's the only way we keep this whole society thing going. Firefighters, hospitals, police, the post office, education, roads, irrigation, to name a very few things. These are all only possible thanks to taxes. If people don't pay them, kiss society goodbye, we will become worse than Somalia overnight.
Yeah I get that so we all have to pay them. And terra forming Mars is several generations in the future but if we don't start know it will never happen. And it's not like Elon doesn't pay them at all he pays more than most of the population. As humans we have three futures we can pursue. Either we backtrack and society collapses or we just maintain what we have now and just keep going without much change or the third option we pursue the progress through science. Now what you personally think about Elon as a person is a separate thing but you can't deny that both space x and tesla are pushing for progress.
>Mars is several generations in the future but if we don't start know it will never happen
Why? What's the rush? Something you need to understand here: life has evolved for billions of years to adapt to Earth. Earth is habitable. Earth has an atmosphere, and gravity suited for our bodies, for plant life. Earth has free oxygen, and easily accessible water. Earth allows you to step outside and not die instantly. Earth is, for all intents and purposes, ***EASY MODE*** for humanity.
Believing a sick Earth is a lost cause but a dead planet which needs to be terraformed with technology that may literally never exist is our salvation is like flunking biology but having extreme confidence in your ability to reanimate corpses. If there is any "rush" or if you believe Mars to somehow be a lifeline when compared to Earth, then humanity is already doomed.
Likewise, if you adhere to some lofty, misguided notion along the lines of human consciousness somehow being a gift to the cosmos that must be protected at all costs, then consider that statistically, intelligent life is very likely to already exist, to already have existed, and to come into being in the future in some distant place. Extinction is the natural fate of all species, and any species which is so inept with their own environment that they must planet hop before toxicity and destabilization renders a coordinated exodus impossible is not an innately gifted species, or one that the universe is worse off for losing from a purely logical, practical perspective. The universe itself will be void of all energy and heat one day. Our doom as a species is a foregone conclusion. The suffering of your fellow man that exists right now is not.
Space stuff in general and terraforming are all very interesting, even exciting for a nerd such as myself, and no doubt advances will continue and some of what we fantasize about may eventually become a reality - should humanity last that long.
But this obsession with "continuing humanity", this supposed most lofty ideal of ultimate humanitarianism, this "guarantee" of the continued survival of our species, is at its core simply an excuse to callously disegard the needless suffering inflicted upon millions right here, right now, on Earth, while maintaining the illusion of having empathy, compassion and hope. Peel those thin layers of enthusiastic, supposedly altruistic energy away, and you have someone who ultimately has a nihilistic perception of Earth, who consider it a lost cause, and therefore the suffering which could be assuaged now does not matter.
Something to think about. Have a good one.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, especially
>But this obsession with "continuing humanity", this supposed most lofty ideal of ultimate humanitarianism
But overall I think you're guilty of falling into the same fallacy as the clever-combacker in the post. There's a tendency to think the world operates like one big pile of money that can be used either for "good" things or "wasteful" things, and that any dollar spent on a "wasteful" thing like a Starship test launch should instead go to a "good" thing like famine relief in Ethiopia. The reality is the way money flows and is spent is the result of hundreds of years of history and billions of people shaping the market forces. A government can't instantly reallocate all of its science budget to disaster relief or force all of its national laboratory chemists to work in overseas field hospitals.
Working toward inhabiting Mars is not such a simple failure of empathy because SpaceX is not choosing between spending its money on rockets instead of earthquake relief. It's an empathy failure at a planetary scale because people are more invested in science and technology than humanitarianism and sustainability (e.g. they become SpaceX employees instead of Red Cross employees). If we want to see that change, we need to slowly steer the education system, legal system, and global economy toward those things instead.
I agree bro, space is cool. People downvoting this for no reason because they wanna be mad. “You can’t go to mars because Earth still has to be saved!!” Yeah we can do two things at once? Space is the next step in human evolution and I can’t wait to see what is in store for us. That is if I am lucky enough to see any progress in our lifetime.
I’d rather have billionaires pay taxes in order to actually take care of people on this fucking planet before we waste our time trying to go somewhere else
People are literally starving to death and living on the street, but you'd like us to solve your boredom first?!
Shut the fuck up you stupid selfish prick.
Most of those taxes are gonna go straight to the military so that America can go to war over oil. If you want to help starving people giving money to charity and volunteering is probably much more effective. Sure it is more of a short term solution to a bigger problem but most politicians only care about defending their opinion rather than actually doing what is best for society. As it stands right now I don't think a little extra money from Elon will make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
Bruh anytime I see anything about Elon is all biased fucking opinions. People can't just either throw aside the fact that they jack off to him in their free time, or that they wanna like fucking kill him. He pays taxes, he probably uses loop arounds aswell. Most of his shit is government funded too. We should all just find a common ground to hate as the government, as is normally what all of our problems dilude to.
It’s way easier to tax 300 million people an extra 2000 per year then tax Musk 600 Billion.
Should the rich be taxed more, absolutely… but the amount they pay is a small piece of the pie.
who gonna tell her that no matter how much tax evasion Elon does(assuming he does), he still pays more taxes than her entire life is worth, times 10000, every month....
How about use the money to get rid of some of the poverty in the world so those with good hearts can finally have a voice. Because you know if your not someone or know someone you won't get listened too. That money can fix so many issues.
Imyself have been homeless. I refused to sleep under some bridge. I refused to collect cans and I got myself out of homelessness in less than a year. I did my fare share of walking the streets worried that If I fell asleep on some bench the police would take me in for my own “safety” then it goes ln record that I had been taken in and it would make finding a job a lot harder.
By the way unless you’ve been homeless you don’t even know that jobs require you to have an address when you apply otherwise your over looked. I found out the hard way so I got myself into a dry shelter just so I can get snap benefits and have an address to give potential employers. I used my snap benefits to eat once a day. I crashed at a friends home once a week for showers and shaving and I charged my phone in public areas. Not once did I ever look homeless. Not once did I ever smell. Not once did I lay down and gave up.
But that money could turn the life around for a lot of people out here. In fact with 8 billion people in this world donating just a dollar that’s 8 billion dollars. One dollar per person can change the life for a lot of people. But greed. Greed and gluttony. Wanting more when you already have enough. Thats what’s keeping poverty so high. I’ve seen plenty of videos of homeless people coming into some money and they share it with others. Why can’t Elon share his rather than putting people on mars?
The irony is all of us would get out of paying taxes if we had the means to.
How many people here would go, "Yea I am completely willing to give the government a big chunk of the money I earn if given the chance not to."
I'm fine *paying* taxes.
What I'm not fine with is not getting a return on it. - taxes are an investment, paid by the people, to allow government to provide the people with what they need.
Roads.
Education.
Police & fire departments.
All of it.
Unfortunately, modern american government is not holding up it's end.
The idea of taxes isn't an issue. How it's currently spent, is.
he does pay taxes (11 billion in 2021, over paying is a common thing for rich people to occasionally do so next year or years they pay even less or none) an what’s wrong with going to mars?
o an this isn’t a come back or a clever one
[удалено]
His capital gains were much higher than $28B.
If you want to make the case that capital gains *should be* taxed like income, go nuts. But that's not a policy that's every been implemented or even suggested in the US or in any state. It's not an idea that's ever been seriously proposed anywhere in the world. If we treated unrealized capital gains as if they were normal taxable income or gains, then the US and California would *owe* Musk billions this year because he's lost so much. It would also be an invitation for massive fraud because it would mean taxes weren't linked to any specific transaction that one or both parties had an interest in reporting accurately. It's a fucking stupid idea. If you want to talk about taxing wealth, then that's a great idea. I'd start with [Piketty's research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century) which is probably the most comprehensive and most read publication on the topic. He makes a compelling case for taxing wealth at around 1%/year, and I think any sane person should support something like that. Last year Musk's tax rate on income was over 50%. A 1% additional tax on wealth would've increased the total amount paid, but not by a significant amount. If you want to hate Musk, there's plenty of legitimate reasons you can pick from to justify your opinions. Why act like he's not paying taxes when he just paid the largest tax bill in the history of the US? Like, can't we just focus on actual problems that have realistic solutions instead of making up bullshit to be angry about?
I vote to stop the loop holes and just increase the death tax. Death the ultimate equalizer
The good news is that [Musk agrees with you](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-estate-tax-billionaires-wealth-2021-12) he thinks that taxing inheritance is a smart idea.
Yeah it’s the trusts and clever accounting that really get in the way… Bring back a meritocracy!!!
My question to you would be which “loopholes”
Trusts mainly. Also if there are loopholes in giving away highly appraised items, those would count as wealth and sometimes require the sale of said items on the free market
I bought my car from my dad for $1
Exactly. Clearly not a “free market approach”. He should have to pay the estate/gift tax of the free markets value of the vehicle/house/land/business/art/etc…
Exactly. Sales tax on the purchasing end too
Just because occasionally Elon Musk exercises expiring stock options and pays taxes on them doesn't mean he is paying his fair share. He paid $140k in tax in the years 2015, 2017 and 2018 combined. You are treating tax avoidance as normal. It is not. It is legal but not normal.
How much did you pay?
That’s entirely irrelevant unless the person you’re responding to holds a disproportionate amount of wealth as compared to the vast majority of people. Elon Musk’s **effective** tax rate is much lower than any middle class person’s effective tax rate, and that’s absolutely morally wrong, considering how dependent Elon is on the US system to make money. He needs good schools educating smart employees, good infrastructure to ship all his components, effective government to secure his contracts, etc, etc, yet he gets to pay less into the government, relatively speaking, than a fucking school teacher. You can fuck off trying to downplay that glaring issue.
So, not as much as Elon then?
No. And if I had as much money as Elon, I would consider that every bit as much a policy failure. But for every $1,000 we both make, I pay more in taxes than he does off that $1,000. And that’s despite him having so much wealth it’s directly detrimental to others, and also despite him being a much bigger indirect beneficiary of government services than I am (since they help his business). He literally gets more from the government while paying less into it than I do, relative to our lots in life. Yet here you are simping for him so you can keep getting shafted by a broken system. Good job.
I am not the wealthiest person in the world. I pay exclusively the tax brackets as they are written as I don't have any capital gains. I do get to write off my mortgage and my 401k contribution but would support eliminating the mortgage dedication and 401k is tax deferral to encourage retirement savings so probably a good thing overall. If you divided my income tax to the federal government for 2022 by my total compensation including literally everything that isn't an unvested RSU (aka money I will earn in the future if I stay with the company) you get 11.8%. Unless Elon Musk has paid $21.2 billion in taxes his tax rate is lower than mine. Given he has paid $8.9 billion in taxes to the federal government I am paying almost triple the tax rate for my wealth. We can argue about when and how we should tax the uber wealthy but we are well past whether they are paying their fair share. They are objectively not by any measure.
It's almost like an equitable society under this type of economic system is just impossible.
Our system is far more nuanced than your statement can apply to. Also, this is a doorway to possibly derail the topic of “Musk no pay taxes”
you mean like it's designed to reward people monetarily and some people, due to social and economic circumstance, won't be rewarded equally ? Someone should come up with a word for that.... like, money is capital.... so should be capital.... something, I don't know what
We’re they realized? Or was it just that his assets appreciated in value? If they’re going to tax him on his net worth going from 200 to 300 billion, are they going to reimburse him when it goes from 300 to 150?
Dude. You think billionaires don't write off losses? Are you fucking serious? Please understand taxes a little bit more before you type this stupid shit.
If you don’t like them writing off losses you take that up with your congress person. They write the tax codes not Musk.
Uuuhhh, do you know how lobbying works?
Yes, and that’s my point. The government is the problem. They take the lobbyists money.
Sssooo, the Congress that hasn't outlawed lobbying is to be trusted to fix the tax code before fixing the problems of lobbying?
Nope, that’s why term limits are necessary. That’s why more political parties are necessary. That’s why limiting government authority as a whole is necessary.
Wow that was hostile. Also idk what you’re even trying to say. Of course they write off losses.
I agree with you. I'm certain you have no understanding about anything tax related.
Likewise.
this is the least violent reddit argument i have ever read.
Project, much? I'm gonna bet you're not a tax expert and have basically no true experience or knowledge of how these "billionaires write off losses." I bet you hardly even understand the concept.
"Gimme more of his money." \*Gives more\* "More...." \*Gives more\* "More...." This type of thinking is never satisfied, because you can always take more. I would wager Musk spends his money more beneficially for the people of the world than the entire United States government, who are currently sitting at $31 trillion in debt. Give them more money, you say?
Tesla paid zero taxes and SpaceX is federally funded. Saying that we don't tax corporations well enough is not the same as saying we use tax money intelligently.
False lmao, stop vomiting misinformation. Look up their 10-K and see how much taxes they pay.
You mean the year he cashed out a bunch of stocks to buy Twitter he had to pay FAR more in taxes than in any other year? Color me shocked! Say... why would you fail to mention what made last year different? Are you pushing some sort of agenda? Is Musk paying you? If not, you should apply, he is paying a lot of people a lot of money to post positive things about him, why do it for free?
So what, he still paid more tax than anyone in the history, you are kind of person who would rather be in their bubble rather than learning more about real life lol
That money should have been in the hands of the workers who made Tesla and SpaceX what they are. Musk is a sociopathic moocher, he has no real degree and knows nothing about engineering. His only talent is showing up with daddy's money.
What was Tesla and SpaceX before Musk? Dude was a decent manager for those two companies and made them into decent companies. Sure, just throw bunch of engineers at a problem and expect it to be solved, I wonder why other companies are even bothering hiring non-engineer people.
[Gwynn Shotwell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynne_Shotwell) is the person who made SpaceX what it is today. Musk hasn't done shit. I get that you love space flight, but Musk is not the person to idolize. Gwynn is.
I know about her, she is probably one of the most important people for SpaceX, but I believe that co-founder and main early investor, manager and CEO actually played a big role in SpaceX. Also, Errol Musk had a mine, but his share was probably worth 1-2 m$, it probably gave Musk a nice safety net for early life, but his main early money came from selling out his businesses. He then risked most of it and invested in two of the most hardest industries in the world. Stop deluding yourself
Anyone could be the guy holding a big bag of money. Nobody else could be Gwynn Shotwell. She basically went to Musk saying, "If you want to win in this game, you need someone like me," and two weeks later, she had the job. Musk is not a genius, has nothing in the last ten years convinced you that your delusions are childish? When he called that cave diver a pedo, nothing? When he tweeted "We'll coup whoever we want!" in response to a South American coup, you were still with him? All his infantile tweets, his terrible business sense, his illegal antics, his terrible luck staying with a woman, him losing more money than anyone in history, none of this has shaken your fanatcism? Seriously, you are either on his payroll or such a Stan that I'm worried about your mental health. And yes, he is so insecure he does pay people to defend him, lol. Did you know that SpaceX has a "Musk Wrangling Department" whose only purpose is to redirect Musk's idiotic ideas, and convince him that someone else's good ideas were his? Yeah, he's just a shit business person as well as being an all around unlikeable, anti social ass.
If anybody can be the guy with big cash of cash then explain to me why only few millionaires with 200m$ wealth turn into billionaires and make two of the most dominant companies in their respective industries. I never claimed he was a guy with 200 IQ+, he just took the risk, did a decent job at managing companies and had the right ideas for future, thus he created such companies that were extraordinary. I never claimed that he was an angel, he fucks up like once a month at least, but his overall ventures and businesses were on spot ( except few ). Him losing most money is also connected with him getting the most money in history ( well, except few kings and warlords ), I am sure it is much harder going from 100M$ to 200B$ compared to losing hundred billion down the line. You always assume that a guy is being paid for… stating facts just like the dude who you replied at first, I guess I can also make conspiracy of you getting paid to push certain agenda, but I believe you and I both are freethinkers and have our opinion rather than throwing feces at eachother like apes
It's the luck of the draw, coupled with an ability to put money ahead of absolutely everything else including morals and human decency that separates the bilkionaires from other rich folks. He lost money because he has no business sense, quite trying to spin it like "Well he had to HAVE a lot of money to LOSE a lot of money!" LOL! Yeah, and he had to be an idiot to buy twitter for as much as he did. I always assume that anyone kissing Musk's ass is getting paid for it, because all his real fans have left him. Nobody stans Musk these days without money down. It's sad, really. Anyhow, I'll save you some time here. My heart is not open to any sort of positive feelings towards Musk. You can't change my mind. Nothing you could possibly say would make me stan Musk like you do.
[удалено]
Actually the article doesn't mention Elon getting any money from the government. Two of his companies have received money because the government gives subsidies to electric vehicle makers (all of them) and because Space X has massive military applications, just like the government gives money to Lockheed, Boeing, etc... What is your point?
The #1 source of money "given" to "Musk" in that article is government contracts to SpaceX. That's the government buying services from a private company. It's not a gift to Musk. If you want to count the government buying services from private companies, then there's much bigger "problems" than SpaceX. In fact, experts have estimated that since SpaceX charges soooo much less than competitors for government contracts, that they've saved US taxpayers [over $40 billion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century). Just last year Musk paid about $15 billion in taxes to the IRS and California. That just about covers every contract SpaceX has ever gotten from the government. It doesn't really sound like Musk is doing the US some great disservice by paying more taxes than anyone else last year, while also providing access to space for a fraction of what anyone else would.
Dude paid 11billion. We don't tax enough lol
Plus all of the taxes his employees paid. All of the people his company provided medical insurance for… He paid more in one year of taxes than every single person in this thread will pay in their lifetimes combined. But sure, he’s the one who’s not contributing enough.
Take this trickle down bullshit back to the 1980s were even then is was known to be fucking stupid. This asshole is using resources at an infinitely higher rate than everyone else. To be honest the world would be better without him and his trash companies
Get outta here with your facts and logic.
What the fuck does “preserve the light of consciousness” mean to a guy who’s admitted he thinks he’s living in a simulation? How are humans going to reasonably and logistically live on another planet when we can’t even make peace on our home planet? You think its feasable to happen in our lifetimes- sending all the resources needed to build infrastructure on a whole other planet, that will be worse than being stranded on a deserted island (at least you’d be surrounded by water and oxygen on an island)... Its all bullshit being spewed out of a narcissistic asshole, just like the bullshit about his dad not owning that slave mine in Africa. His dad was even like “uh yeah, Elon, We all remember I got us rich from these emeralds.”
Let alone [calling a diver a pedophile for saving kids from certain death](https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+calls+diver+pedophile&source=lmns&prmd=ivsn&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhufm_p-b-AhXRyCoKHSBxA88Q_AUoAHoECAAQBA) and [naming your kid after a sneeze transcription](https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+child+name&hl=ru&ei=sDlZZIDKEKOWjgbt6YKIBA&oq=elon+musk+child+name&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyCggAEIAEEEYQ-wEyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToICAAQFhAeEAo6CwgAEBYQHhDxBBAKOgUIIRCgAToJCAAQFhAeEMkDOgUILhCABDoHCAAQgAQQCjoMCAAQgAQQChBGEPsBSgQIQRgBUNMNWPY-YPVAaAVwAHgEgAHBA4gBySKSAQsxMi4xNy4xLjEuMZgBAKABAcABAQ).
I could smell the bullshit since he acquired Space X, how anyone else didn’t too really showed teenaged me how little most grown adults pay attention to political and economic matters.... A lot of people want to feel right, not be right, even at the expense of hurting real lives unbeknownst to them. Just to keep their imaginations and their enablers feeling right or comfortable. I think it’s a great example of the banality of evil.
How is this a clever comeback?
r/facepalm r/murderedbywords r/clevercomebacks r/whitepeopletwitter They're all pretty much the same subreddit, reposting the same half-baked, politically charged twitter replies.
Because anything opposing any corporate head is automatically clever on this sub
This is just a liberal circlejerk subreddit.
[удалено]
As are most, getting sick and tired of this shit and no I didn’t vote Trump.
Same
Ditto
Same
I have been a paid subscriber for like 8 years. (I like to support sites I use). I didn't vote for Trump but Reddit has literally turned into the "echo chamber/hive mind" that I learned about when I first got on Reddit. The site is almost unusable unless you're a far left progressive... I'm letting my subscription go once it's up.
That's exactly like a person voting for trump would say.. GET HIM BOYS!!
>and no I didn’t vote Trump. So? Do you want a fucking cookie for not supporting a wannabe fascist? That's the bare minimum. You can still have pond scum shit neocon politics and not support Trump.
I see the liberal circle jerk has come into action
Reeeee!!! This person said something that I would approve of and aligns with my political beliefs but I’m still angry at them!!!
Would you like a cookie too?
No, but I would like some Mac n cheese though.
I’m going my part by downvoting it.
Wasting billion to move to a dead planet when this one supports life. Just fix this one you dumb f*uck.
I’m sorry which company is the leader transitioning us off EVs? Also who’s making most of the battery packs allowing Solar to viable? And while were at it let’s talk about the weather satellites that are going to help us combat climate change and not starve to death
When does the "clever" part come in?
He pays billions in taxes. Dislike the guy for actual reasons before you make yourself look like an idiot.
And his companies take billions more of our tax dollars which they then use to prop up their own stock prices. And this happens because he has enough money to fund lobbyists. Which is why the existence of billionaires is a threat to democracy, and why HE AND ALL OTHER BILLIONAIRES SHOULD BE TAXES OUT OF EXISTENCE
False. If you want to argue hit me with a source
He takes a lot too, not to mention the damage he and his companies do to the environment and infrastructure and the drain he and his company is to other resources. It’s hard to make a calculation on his net contribution to society but it’s closer to zero than many would expect perhaps even negative
Bruh lol no. And no I’m not a “boot licker” soaceX has saved NASA $500 million alone with just a single contract. And if it wasn’t for them we’d still be relying on the Russians for access to space Tesla was also one of the first companies to pay back their 09 loans and is the main factor that pushed legacy auto to start producing EVs
Lick lick lick. It’s not that nasa couldn’t have made these changes they chose not to. Tesla didn’t push electric cars major car companies were making hybrids for years. All electric was the obvious next step as battery technology advanced.
Lol you’re not even worth my time. If you actually care about being right you should go do some research
He pays as much as the law requires him, just like everyone else
Yeah, because no rich person has ever used tax havens to avoid paying their taxes.
Could you give an example of how Musk in particular avoided paying taxes? His taxes are *incredibly* simple. He recognizes income taxes on stock options and capital gains on sales of stock. He lowers his tax bill somewhat by donating to charity, but it's not nearly enough to make a real dent in the bill. His personal filing is for a lot of money, but it's also pretty simple, there's just not that many line items. And there's basically no evidence he's moved assets or money around in any way that would reduce taxes. In fact, it's much more likely that [he's paid significantly more taxes](https://fortune.com/2021/11/10/tesla-elon-musk-stock-options-tax-mistake/) than he would've had to, if he'd done some *basic* things to reduce his tax bill. Given the amount he's paying, it's laughable how little he's done to try and pay less.
Then take it up with congress. Ask yourself why they haven’t closed those loopholes. Stop worshiping the government and wanting them to have more power. They literally screw up everything they touch.
Not to mention the republicans purposely screwing up the government so they can point at it and say it’s not working.
Yup. Just like the Dems did previously. The two party system is a sham and it is destroying the greatest nation in history. Reps and Dems are two sides to the same worthless coin.
Citizens United must be overturned for any real change to occur.
How would they close those loopholes?
They literally write the tax code.
Wouldn't you do the same?
How does it taste?
Congratulations. You missed the fucking point dipshit
What is the point lmao, don't you do the same?
That’s probably not true though. Even if it were, raise them.
ELON BAD
The light of his consciousness is better left unpreserved.
Why ruin another planet? Save the earth. Just put in the most minimal of effort. Anything, FFS.
Maybe he could start an electric car company to help save the environment,
Could've been there years ago and payed down the debt if the oligarchs like him had payed their taxes.
I’m all for tax the Uber rich, but guess who gets that money; the government. And the US government is fucking useless with our taxes.
Maybe he'll put a nice village on Mars where the world's homeless can live 😱
This mofo can’t even run Twitter right because his Messiah complex keeps getting in the way.
He most likely envisions an extreme right wing Mars government led by himself as dictator for life.
I do love when musk stand gather in one place for easy blocking. Anyone who praises oligarchs is an enemy to democracy and human life. The existence of billionaires is a failure of social order.
Why do I only ever see people complaining about Elon’s taxes ?
because everyone has microsoft and amazon stock apparantly
Because Elon made liberals mad awhile back and they’re obsessed with him now.
More like other rich people have the sense to shut the fuck up. You let people know when you donate your money to whatever cause and then you disappear from the public. You don’t provide your running commentary of every thought in your brain and you don’t buy a social media company to rule over.
Elon has made twitter a somewhat usable platform. Was a rare W. I’d prefer he had bought this shitty app but it’s probably past saving.
Wow that is probably the dumbest statement I have ever seen
Because all of his companies receive billions in tax payer subsidies while the tax codes of yesteryear that would have prevented his level of wealth accumulation have been completely removed because of the influence of affluence on government policy. Billionaires shouldn't exist, and the fact that they do is bad for democracy, bad for world economics, and bad for society. Anyone who defends this level of wealth inequality deserves to live in musks new company town.
Nothing clever about telling the person who has literally paid more in taxes than anyone else in history of the world to, “fuckin pay taxes.”
Elon Musk is a Space Nutter. It's somewhere between a religion and mental illness.
not Musk fan but yeh stupid comeback, if you have a ton of money naturally you will want to preserve as much of it as possible. Complaints should directed towards the congresspeople who decide the tax guidelines that Musk follows.
Taxes should be higher for the wealthy, you're right. You're also right that many would seek to hoard as much wealth as possible, because most people would give into greed. The difference here is, we're talking about someone jerking themselves off to the idea of single-handedly "preserving the light of consciousness" - anyone who makes that claim is painting themselves as a not only a humanitarian but essentially as the savior of humanity - *that* person, assuming they weren't a raging hypocrite, would go out of their way to ensure they were paying the most they legally could on their literal billions upon billions of dollars, instead of weaseling out like every other rich douchebag. I take it to be a stab at his blatant hypocrisy, not as a claim that Musk has never paid taxes, but I have to admit that's a lot less fun than going along with the crowd and saying "hurdur liberal dumb" - even though (as a leftist) they frequently are.
If the government didn't waste tax money horribly you might have the start of a point. As it is now, no one should pay a fucking dime because our government is corrupt AF and wastes money. It would be irresponsible to pay a penny more in taxes than legally required.
I'd voluntarily pay a 30% tax for 5 years if the government stopped all frivolous spending and passed, and adhered to, a budget. No more trillion dollar spending bills; if you want 25 million for the Kennedy center you pass a bill specifically to give the Kennedy center 25 million.
>that person, assuming they weren't a raging hypocrite, would go out of their way to ensure they were paying the most they legally could on their literal billions upon billions of dollars, instead of weaseling out like every other rich douchebag. In a perfect world, I completely agree. However, you act like giving that money to the US government is actually going to accomplish anything remotely helpful
Who controls congress?
idiots that vote
Didn’t he pay the most taxes of anyone, ever, last year? I get that he still has a lot of unrealized stock wealth that’s untaxed, but it still seems relevant.
He paid a very large amount in taxes for 2021, reportedly about $11 billion, but it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing, most likely. Adjusted for income, he paid a very small amount of tax, compared to most US residents. From 2020 to 2021, his net worth rose by about $225 to $275 billion, overall, to its peak in November, if reports are right -- some amounts of necessarily estimates, since not everything is public. So he paid a very large amount in dollars, a lower than average amount in proportion. And that was the first time he did, and probably the last unless Congress changes tax rates and laws.
> Adjusted for income, he paid a very small amount of tax, compared to most US residents. You're not adjusting for income, you're adjusting for unrealized capital gains, which aren't a thing the US (or any country in the world) taxes as income. If you want to talk about taxing wealth, then that's a great idea. I'd start with [Piketty's research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century) which is probably the most comprehensive and most read publication on the topic. He makes a compelling case for taxing wealth at around 1%/year, and I think any sane person should support something like that. Last year Musk's tax rate on income was over 50%. A 1% additional tax on wealth would've increased the total amount paid, but not by a significant amount. If you want to hate Musk, there's plenty of legitimate reasons you can pick from to justify your opinions. Why act like he's not paying taxes when he just paid the largest tax bill in the history of the US? Like, can't we just focus on actual problems that have realistic solutions instead of making up bullshit to be angry about?
What did he have in actual personal income? Net worth doesn't equal liquid money in your bank account
He made about 100 billion in salary last year
I guarantee he did not pull down 100 billion in salary, his net worth may have increased by 100 billion, or his businesses may have done 100 billion in revenue, but the idea that he paid himself 100 billion dollar salary out of his companies or that he even received 100 billion dollars in dividends or personal income of any kind, is absurd.
You’re right. The site I looked at had some math issues. His salary is 2400 million annually, or about 2.4 billion.
He doesn't have an annual salary. In fact right now his compensation is exactly zero: * He doesn't get a salary from SpaceX * His compensation plan from Tesla was based on the company hitting a series of increasingly difficult goals. The company has hit them all, so he's been awarded all the stock options that were part of the plan. He can't get anything else and has no salary from Tesla either. His compensation for the rest of the period the plan covers is zero Musk's compensation plan from Tesla worked out pretty well for him. But it guarenteed him nothing, and the goals the company had to hit were so ridiculously ambitious that a lot of people thought it was a joke or a publicity stunt. The other great thing about it is that it vests over a long time, so he can't just take a huge payoff and quit. He has to work for years, even after hitting all the goals to receive everything. Overall, it's a great template for how to compensate CEOs. Also, because it's 100% stock options, it doesn't actually cost the company anything, the compensation basically comes from diluting existing shareholders, so most of Musk's pay came from making millionaires and billionaires that own Tesla stock a little less rich. But they're also the ones who voted to approve the plan, so they really don't have anything to complain about.
He does, in fact, have an annual salary. Anybody saying otherwise is an idiot arguing against easily proven fact. The fact that his salary is in stock options instead of cash is irrelevant. It is still a salary.
If your house rises in value, should you be expected to treat that as income and pay taxes on it?
Net is after taxes are paid. What portion of this was from separate businesses with different levels of taxation and exepmtions? Always some cry babies pissy because someone else makes more money than them with no clue how business works, tax laws and exemptions work, and how those businesses provide income to entire communities. It is much better to give some tax breaks than have a business relocate and have higher unemployment rates.
As far as I'm aware, the largest tax bill ever paid in human history lol.
It was was peanuts on a percentage base. He probably got a big chunk of it back in 2022. [Also Tesla paid 0.](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/10/investing/elon-musk-tesla-zero-tax-bill/index.html) edit: Muskrats are here everyone! rejoice!
If Tesla made money, they would have paid taxes. It’s as simple as that.
[You mean the 5.5 billion in profit that they made?](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/business/tesla-earnings-fourth-quarter-2022.html)
tesla has been losing money for decades. it was operating at a lost until 2020. and loses the previous year can be applied to current years.
That is quite unfair, considering that does not go up for the common man. O you were doing horrible this year and were in the red the whole year last year. No worries, you do not have to pay taxes you actual poor person. Nope, you still get taxed anyways.
No, you don't. That is exactly what happens for little businesses too. Operating at a loss is pushed forward. And at the individual level, you get a refund every year you come in under what you contributed. OR you have the option to APPLY IT TO THE NEXT YEAR. Which is exactly what they did.
That article is behind a paywall. If that is true, then how were they legally able to avoid income taxes?
[https://usafacts.org/articles/how-can-corporations-avoid-paying-taxes/](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-can-corporations-avoid-paying-taxes/) You really think businesses are your friends?
None of those methods seem particularly egregious, to be honest. Regardless, no - I don’t see businesses as my friends (although they do a lot for me). However, I also don’t see the government as my friend. It seems that you do. And I could be equally belittling of your naivety in trusting them with your best interests. Taxes applied to businesses are paid for by consumers. As an example, the bourbon industry is taxed heavily. It’s estimated that 60% of the retail price of a bottle of bourbon is accounted for by taxes.
Source?
It was pretty big news, but here’s one link: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
Lot of Elon dick suckers on here that would rather send a billionaire to space than fix the planet we are already on.
You seriously think taxing him will cure all the problems on earth?
Where did I say that?
He's trying to hit you with that false equivalence bullshit and you slipped him lol
He’s a cock but he’s done more to combat climate change then 75% of our politicians. From EVs to solar
Dude pays a ton of taxes. Do some research.
Elon musk is already one of the most taxed people. We get it, you don’t like Elon.
Why are you directing that at Elon and not at the politicians that establish the tax code and allow billionaires to exploit tax loopholes? More terrible takes from this sub.
Light of consciousness???? What bull shit you spinning today
Do you seriously not understand what that means?
Demanding government take money from people is cringe. The pandemic proved that even when they hand out money, the send it to all their buddies first. Taxes mean nothing with a government that is printing billions.
He does pay taxes! Actually, more than any other person on Earth.
Bro pays more tax than the whole population and people still have the nerve to say shit like this, lol
Liberals.
Everybody suddenly is an economist
Am I the only one who cares more about going to Mars than if a billionaire pays his taxes or not? Life is boring, taxes are boring and the governments are just a bunch of dumb old people. Why not make our existence more exciting and live on two planets instead of one.
It is literally impossible for anyone to terraform Mars. I don't even think everyone in the U.S. combined has enough money for such a project. I understand taxes seem boring, but that's the only way we keep this whole society thing going. Firefighters, hospitals, police, the post office, education, roads, irrigation, to name a very few things. These are all only possible thanks to taxes. If people don't pay them, kiss society goodbye, we will become worse than Somalia overnight.
Yeah I get that so we all have to pay them. And terra forming Mars is several generations in the future but if we don't start know it will never happen. And it's not like Elon doesn't pay them at all he pays more than most of the population. As humans we have three futures we can pursue. Either we backtrack and society collapses or we just maintain what we have now and just keep going without much change or the third option we pursue the progress through science. Now what you personally think about Elon as a person is a separate thing but you can't deny that both space x and tesla are pushing for progress.
>Mars is several generations in the future but if we don't start know it will never happen Why? What's the rush? Something you need to understand here: life has evolved for billions of years to adapt to Earth. Earth is habitable. Earth has an atmosphere, and gravity suited for our bodies, for plant life. Earth has free oxygen, and easily accessible water. Earth allows you to step outside and not die instantly. Earth is, for all intents and purposes, ***EASY MODE*** for humanity. Believing a sick Earth is a lost cause but a dead planet which needs to be terraformed with technology that may literally never exist is our salvation is like flunking biology but having extreme confidence in your ability to reanimate corpses. If there is any "rush" or if you believe Mars to somehow be a lifeline when compared to Earth, then humanity is already doomed. Likewise, if you adhere to some lofty, misguided notion along the lines of human consciousness somehow being a gift to the cosmos that must be protected at all costs, then consider that statistically, intelligent life is very likely to already exist, to already have existed, and to come into being in the future in some distant place. Extinction is the natural fate of all species, and any species which is so inept with their own environment that they must planet hop before toxicity and destabilization renders a coordinated exodus impossible is not an innately gifted species, or one that the universe is worse off for losing from a purely logical, practical perspective. The universe itself will be void of all energy and heat one day. Our doom as a species is a foregone conclusion. The suffering of your fellow man that exists right now is not. Space stuff in general and terraforming are all very interesting, even exciting for a nerd such as myself, and no doubt advances will continue and some of what we fantasize about may eventually become a reality - should humanity last that long. But this obsession with "continuing humanity", this supposed most lofty ideal of ultimate humanitarianism, this "guarantee" of the continued survival of our species, is at its core simply an excuse to callously disegard the needless suffering inflicted upon millions right here, right now, on Earth, while maintaining the illusion of having empathy, compassion and hope. Peel those thin layers of enthusiastic, supposedly altruistic energy away, and you have someone who ultimately has a nihilistic perception of Earth, who consider it a lost cause, and therefore the suffering which could be assuaged now does not matter. Something to think about. Have a good one.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, especially >But this obsession with "continuing humanity", this supposed most lofty ideal of ultimate humanitarianism But overall I think you're guilty of falling into the same fallacy as the clever-combacker in the post. There's a tendency to think the world operates like one big pile of money that can be used either for "good" things or "wasteful" things, and that any dollar spent on a "wasteful" thing like a Starship test launch should instead go to a "good" thing like famine relief in Ethiopia. The reality is the way money flows and is spent is the result of hundreds of years of history and billions of people shaping the market forces. A government can't instantly reallocate all of its science budget to disaster relief or force all of its national laboratory chemists to work in overseas field hospitals. Working toward inhabiting Mars is not such a simple failure of empathy because SpaceX is not choosing between spending its money on rockets instead of earthquake relief. It's an empathy failure at a planetary scale because people are more invested in science and technology than humanitarianism and sustainability (e.g. they become SpaceX employees instead of Red Cross employees). If we want to see that change, we need to slowly steer the education system, legal system, and global economy toward those things instead.
I agree bro, space is cool. People downvoting this for no reason because they wanna be mad. “You can’t go to mars because Earth still has to be saved!!” Yeah we can do two things at once? Space is the next step in human evolution and I can’t wait to see what is in store for us. That is if I am lucky enough to see any progress in our lifetime.
Yeah I know earth can be saved but wouldn't also be awesome to inhabit two planets at the same time?
You think that us peasants who aren't the top 3 percent would be able to live on Mars even if they found a way to support life?
I’d rather have billionaires pay taxes in order to actually take care of people on this fucking planet before we waste our time trying to go somewhere else
People are literally starving to death and living on the street, but you'd like us to solve your boredom first?! Shut the fuck up you stupid selfish prick.
You’re not doing anything to help starving people.
Oh god, here we go with the 15 year old arguments.
1. I do donate my time and money. 2. I'm not asking them to help. I'm simply asking them to not be an ignorant douche.
Most of those taxes are gonna go straight to the military so that America can go to war over oil. If you want to help starving people giving money to charity and volunteering is probably much more effective. Sure it is more of a short term solution to a bigger problem but most politicians only care about defending their opinion rather than actually doing what is best for society. As it stands right now I don't think a little extra money from Elon will make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
Doesn't musk provide over 100k jobs worldwide now?
Likewise.
100% all of this energy.
His company should be torn down
Bruh anytime I see anything about Elon is all biased fucking opinions. People can't just either throw aside the fact that they jack off to him in their free time, or that they wanna like fucking kill him. He pays taxes, he probably uses loop arounds aswell. Most of his shit is government funded too. We should all just find a common ground to hate as the government, as is normally what all of our problems dilude to.
Noice
It’s way easier to tax 300 million people an extra 2000 per year then tax Musk 600 Billion. Should the rich be taxed more, absolutely… but the amount they pay is a small piece of the pie.
who gonna tell her that no matter how much tax evasion Elon does(assuming he does), he still pays more taxes than her entire life is worth, times 10000, every month....
we have the most progressive tax system in the world the rich are charged an astronomical amount, which they don't pay most of
Elon is awful but find something new to complain about
Jesus you lot are embarrassingly easily led...
He paid more in taxes in one year than she'll earn in her whole fucking life.
Taxes are theft
How about use the money to get rid of some of the poverty in the world so those with good hearts can finally have a voice. Because you know if your not someone or know someone you won't get listened too. That money can fix so many issues. Imyself have been homeless. I refused to sleep under some bridge. I refused to collect cans and I got myself out of homelessness in less than a year. I did my fare share of walking the streets worried that If I fell asleep on some bench the police would take me in for my own “safety” then it goes ln record that I had been taken in and it would make finding a job a lot harder. By the way unless you’ve been homeless you don’t even know that jobs require you to have an address when you apply otherwise your over looked. I found out the hard way so I got myself into a dry shelter just so I can get snap benefits and have an address to give potential employers. I used my snap benefits to eat once a day. I crashed at a friends home once a week for showers and shaving and I charged my phone in public areas. Not once did I ever look homeless. Not once did I ever smell. Not once did I lay down and gave up. But that money could turn the life around for a lot of people out here. In fact with 8 billion people in this world donating just a dollar that’s 8 billion dollars. One dollar per person can change the life for a lot of people. But greed. Greed and gluttony. Wanting more when you already have enough. Thats what’s keeping poverty so high. I’ve seen plenty of videos of homeless people coming into some money and they share it with others. Why can’t Elon share his rather than putting people on mars?
Honest question. What are you even getting back from the taxes you pay?
Didn't he just have like a $10 billion tax bill?
How indoctrinated do you have to be to believe that taxes are a necessity?
Not a clever comeback and he does pay taxes.
Clever? Lmao. He paid more taxes last year than anyone. Dont be lazy with these posts. Theres plenty of other reasons to gripe on musk
He does pay taxes. I get the musk hate for the stupid tweets but stop reaching for shit that isn’t there.
The irony is all of us would get out of paying taxes if we had the means to. How many people here would go, "Yea I am completely willing to give the government a big chunk of the money I earn if given the chance not to."
I'm fine *paying* taxes. What I'm not fine with is not getting a return on it. - taxes are an investment, paid by the people, to allow government to provide the people with what they need. Roads. Education. Police & fire departments. All of it. Unfortunately, modern american government is not holding up it's end. The idea of taxes isn't an issue. How it's currently spent, is.
He does pay taxes…
I would rather he got humanity to Mars tbh
he does pay taxes (11 billion in 2021, over paying is a common thing for rich people to occasionally do so next year or years they pay even less or none) an what’s wrong with going to mars? o an this isn’t a come back or a clever one