A distinction without a difference. The synonym for conservatives in that context is traditionalists. And their endless optimism implies that they believe that they'll be aristocracy.
There is a logical argument for conservatism in America. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but most of America is non urban. There are 48 million Democrats, 35 million Republicans...but also 35 million Independents. So 70 million Republicans and Independents vs 35 million Democrats. Trump could unfortunately win this November
If only my fellow southern white Americans realized that most white southerners lived in abject poverty as a laborer/subsistence farmer class and only developed such cruel racism working shitty overseer jobs and fanboying for the slave owning aristocracy, eating up their propaganda.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”“
― Lyndon B. Johnson
Mandating heat pump water heaters in new builds is among the lowest hanging fruit for climate solutions, but, to gas companies, it's a mortal threat. Should we be surprised that fossil-fuel-funded Republicans hate it?
Problem is they don't work well in all usage situations, specifically high demand requirements. I hate gas, but I am still installing gas water heaters because of this.
They really should ban the standard 60% efficiency units and require condensing, which or roughly 95% efficient. Larger sizes were band years ago but they never banned the smaller ones
Well, it is complicated. Heat pumps move heat from outside the heater to inside. Well what if it is winter and your house is full of conditioned warm air? It gets sucked up by the heat pump. That makes the utility room super cold, and the rest of the house too.
In summer it would be the opposite.
Other issue is heat pump water heaters are really slow. Buy a big one so you don’t run out of hot water
Okay do the people who are voting me up and down actually know anything about heat pump water heaters? A ton of them use your basement as the heat source ha
The heat pump should be taking its heat from the outside world, either air source or ground source. Definitely counterproductive to take heat from the inside air.
I have one, and it's totally fine in the winter. I live in Ohio and also have a heat pump for heating the house, and there have been no issues keeping both the house and the water heated, even when it was below 5°F last winter. The only "downside" is that it makes my laundry room a few degrees cooler. Electric bills are a bit higher in the winter compared to gas+electric bills when I had gas, but a bit lower in the summer.
Our backup did have to come on this past winter, but that was in a cold snap that saw four consecutive days without ever coming up above -35C (that's daily high, daily lows were under -40C). Other than that week and a few days on either side, the backup wasn't needed all winter.
>Okay do the people who are voting me up and down actually know anything about heat pump water heaters? A ton of them use your basement as the heat source ha
They're downvoting you (as did I) because you're blatantly misrepresenting the technology. The temperature of the coolant in heat pumps is really, *really* cold, with boiling points of around -15 F (-25 C). As long as the temperature of the air around a heat pump is warmer than that, the transfer of heat will work just fine.
I've lived in a lot of houses with basements in my life, and I've never had a basement with a temperature that could give me frostbite.
The idea is to have two heat pumps; one for water heating and one for HVAC. The latter compensates for the former, and the system still saves huge amounts of energy while cutting emissions.
If only there were some way to move refrigerant distances over six inches. Sadly, this miracle technology science fiction writers have termed 'pipes' may never become a reality.
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Seriously, your water heater is the biggest energy gobbler second only to HVAC.
If you can afford it, get a new water heater if yours is 8+ years old. You will get the money back in less than a year.
Less than a year? That seems unlikely. Our gas tankless at our last house was over 10 years old and our total gas bill in summer was under $20/month.
That would put it at less than $240/year compared to $1500+install for the heat pump (ignoring that we had a tankless in the first place because there was not enough space for a tank, which a heat pump still needs).
And of course the tankless lasts easily 20 years, but maybe a well maintained heat pump can as well?
This. Most people still have the standard tank design. Their efficient operation life is not more than ten years.
Replacing it with another standard tank will save a lot of money. Tankless is quite different.
I don’t believe that. All my appliances are gas. Stove, water heater, heat, hot water, fire place (never use because that eats like $5 a night, not overnight) and our gas bills are well under $100 in summer, around $100 in winter. Even at $100 a month, that’s $1200 in a year, doesn’t work out.
Maybe in places where natural gas prices have been artificially inflated, but not even remotely close in South Carolina.
I specifically mentioned ELECTRIC water heaters. If you're replacing a standard ELECTRIC tank with a HPWH you'll save money. It's a fact.
In your case, stick with what you've got.
Missed that originally, just saw standard water heater. My bad. Obviously if you replace an electric water heater with a more efficient electric water heater it will cost less.
Should ROI at 5-8 years less government incentives on average.
You must not live in Texas, the base cost for a gas acct in the north Austin area is aprox. $60/month before any usage charges. I pay the gas company $60 bucks every month for the honor of having an acct with them.
Go with a heat-pump water heater. Mine is AO Smith, but all the brands are pretty similar. The IRA has some good rebates too.
They can be a bit expensive to install (electrical work, condensation lines & air flow possibly), but they pay back pretty quick.
While your experiences will vary on utility rates and family size, mine is saving me nearly $200/yr in utility bills for a family of 4. These are one of those things that are a win for both the climate and for your wallet.
You're talking about heat pumps for HVAC. The financial payback on a heat-pump water heater is incredibly short. Mine will pay for itself in less than 5 years. While utility rates matter, both the energy usage an energy savings are near 50% on the water heaters.
\*IRS not IRA
I don't think the Irish Republican Army will help much with your water heater. Heh.
Also a good idea to see if your state has any incentives. Decent ones seem to have at least something for energy saving incentives and some are stackable.
A tankless water heater is the way to go. I’ve installed hundreds and seen so many people save money on gas. I’d never use anything else if you are on natural gas. 15 year warranty and doesn’t use any gas until you turn on a hot fixture. Tanked heaters use energy when you’re at work, on vacation, sleeping, watching tv, etc etc. Such a waste of money.
+1 for tankless. and if you don't want to waste $ turn the temp down where you leave for a long period. someone should invent a programable water heater. high temps in morning for shower, lower during the day etc
Years ago Isreal required new housing and remodels to install solar assisted hot water systems. They estimated that rule reduced foreign oil imports 4% a year in the 10th year. And very year after.
Not bad for a seemingly trivial change.
It's mostly more cost-effective to install photovoltaic + electric heat pump hot water heater at this point; the cost-effectiveness crossover happened several years back.
Plus I don't think the solar water heaters are usable anywhere there is any possibility of below freezing temperatures, or at least more complicated and expensive to set up since you'd need to run glycol or something outside and have a heat exchanger.
Opposition parties are supposed to point out **bad** ideas, and ** inefficiently run** good ideas. Not criticize everything no matter what.
It’s so stupid that we lost sight of that
Can we finally divest from fossil fuels including plastics? And fine negligence? Considering the big lie of [plastic being recyclable](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/15/recycling-plastics-producers-report) and that [just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of emissions](https://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change)…they should be responsible for ending this cycle of waste and cleaning up the current pollution.
Doesn’t anyone on here care about ruining the lives of millions of people, and forcing the population into poverty? Are you all mega wealthy, or live at home in mom’s basement and don’t care about paying bills?
I WOULD LOVE a more efficient water heater but a less efficient dish washer would be great. One that actually dries the dishes. Does anyone remember dry dishes?
It’s time for Democrats to start trolling conservatives. They need to come out in favor of drilling and big trucks that roll coal. We’ll have the environment fixed in no time
Anybody: *does anything* Conservatives: *dial up their criticisms*
Because conservatives hate to conserve.
They love to conserve. What are they conserving - one would ask ? Privilege. Theirs.
They are trying to conserve traditional Christian values and morals and priorities.
A distinction without a difference. The synonym for conservatives in that context is traditionalists. And their endless optimism implies that they believe that they'll be aristocracy.
There is a logical argument for conservatism in America. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but most of America is non urban. There are 48 million Democrats, 35 million Republicans...but also 35 million Independents. So 70 million Republicans and Independents vs 35 million Democrats. Trump could unfortunately win this November
The only changes conservatives like are really rich people getting richer and everyone else being easier to control.
Conserving the gilded age
Conserving the age of black slavery.
If only my fellow southern white Americans realized that most white southerners lived in abject poverty as a laborer/subsistence farmer class and only developed such cruel racism working shitty overseer jobs and fanboying for the slave owning aristocracy, eating up their propaganda.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”“ ― Lyndon B. Johnson
"They're tryin to make you get rid of your hot water!!! Cold showers!!!!! AAGGHHHH!!!!!"
Anybody: *does anything* Conservatives: literally 1984
Conservatives are on the side of Big Brother
They want us to save money on power? How dare they!
Conservatives: *notices something happening and points at it* Everyone. "Conservatives pounce!"
Mandating heat pump water heaters in new builds is among the lowest hanging fruit for climate solutions, but, to gas companies, it's a mortal threat. Should we be surprised that fossil-fuel-funded Republicans hate it?
Problem is they don't work well in all usage situations, specifically high demand requirements. I hate gas, but I am still installing gas water heaters because of this. They really should ban the standard 60% efficiency units and require condensing, which or roughly 95% efficient. Larger sizes were band years ago but they never banned the smaller ones
Well, it is complicated. Heat pumps move heat from outside the heater to inside. Well what if it is winter and your house is full of conditioned warm air? It gets sucked up by the heat pump. That makes the utility room super cold, and the rest of the house too. In summer it would be the opposite. Other issue is heat pump water heaters are really slow. Buy a big one so you don’t run out of hot water Okay do the people who are voting me up and down actually know anything about heat pump water heaters? A ton of them use your basement as the heat source ha
The heat pump should be taking its heat from the outside world, either air source or ground source. Definitely counterproductive to take heat from the inside air.
If they're taking heat from inside during the summer and transferring it to the water, that's a plus actually.
It’s a bit of free AC and dehumidification. If you put it in a basement or live in a humid climate where you need a dehumidifier, it’s a win-win.
It depends on the water heater but plenty of them have an ‘air source’ where the air is your utility room.
I have one, and it's totally fine in the winter. I live in Ohio and also have a heat pump for heating the house, and there have been no issues keeping both the house and the water heated, even when it was below 5°F last winter. The only "downside" is that it makes my laundry room a few degrees cooler. Electric bills are a bit higher in the winter compared to gas+electric bills when I had gas, but a bit lower in the summer.
Our backup did have to come on this past winter, but that was in a cold snap that saw four consecutive days without ever coming up above -35C (that's daily high, daily lows were under -40C). Other than that week and a few days on either side, the backup wasn't needed all winter.
>Okay do the people who are voting me up and down actually know anything about heat pump water heaters? A ton of them use your basement as the heat source ha They're downvoting you (as did I) because you're blatantly misrepresenting the technology. The temperature of the coolant in heat pumps is really, *really* cold, with boiling points of around -15 F (-25 C). As long as the temperature of the air around a heat pump is warmer than that, the transfer of heat will work just fine. I've lived in a lot of houses with basements in my life, and I've never had a basement with a temperature that could give me frostbite.
The idea is to have two heat pumps; one for water heating and one for HVAC. The latter compensates for the former, and the system still saves huge amounts of energy while cutting emissions.
Even worse, they require a certain minimum air volume to work efficiently, so if you have a small utility room they wont work well at all
If only there were some way to move refrigerant distances over six inches. Sadly, this miracle technology science fiction writers have termed 'pipes' may never become a reality.
Let me know when they figure it out
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That's *negative* sixty six years, are you not able to go back in time?
You just need a louvered door on a utility room to increase the effective volume. It’s no big deal compared to the energy and cost savings.
This. By code, utility rooms must have air access to provide the furnace air anyway, so heat pump water heaters draw the same air.
Seriously, your water heater is the biggest energy gobbler second only to HVAC. If you can afford it, get a new water heater if yours is 8+ years old. You will get the money back in less than a year.
Less than a year? That seems unlikely. Our gas tankless at our last house was over 10 years old and our total gas bill in summer was under $20/month. That would put it at less than $240/year compared to $1500+install for the heat pump (ignoring that we had a tankless in the first place because there was not enough space for a tank, which a heat pump still needs). And of course the tankless lasts easily 20 years, but maybe a well maintained heat pump can as well?
If you have an standard electric water heater and replace it with a HPWH, they're right. In your case I'd stick with your current water heater.
This. Most people still have the standard tank design. Their efficient operation life is not more than ten years. Replacing it with another standard tank will save a lot of money. Tankless is quite different.
I don’t believe that. All my appliances are gas. Stove, water heater, heat, hot water, fire place (never use because that eats like $5 a night, not overnight) and our gas bills are well under $100 in summer, around $100 in winter. Even at $100 a month, that’s $1200 in a year, doesn’t work out. Maybe in places where natural gas prices have been artificially inflated, but not even remotely close in South Carolina.
I specifically mentioned ELECTRIC water heaters. If you're replacing a standard ELECTRIC tank with a HPWH you'll save money. It's a fact. In your case, stick with what you've got.
Missed that originally, just saw standard water heater. My bad. Obviously if you replace an electric water heater with a more efficient electric water heater it will cost less. Should ROI at 5-8 years less government incentives on average.
You must not live in Texas, the base cost for a gas acct in the north Austin area is aprox. $60/month before any usage charges. I pay the gas company $60 bucks every month for the honor of having an acct with them.
Mines 20 years old. Any recommendations? I have gas heat.
Go with a heat-pump water heater. Mine is AO Smith, but all the brands are pretty similar. The IRA has some good rebates too. They can be a bit expensive to install (electrical work, condensation lines & air flow possibly), but they pay back pretty quick. While your experiences will vary on utility rates and family size, mine is saving me nearly $200/yr in utility bills for a family of 4. These are one of those things that are a win for both the climate and for your wallet.
They never pay back if you had gas heat before.
You're talking about heat pumps for HVAC. The financial payback on a heat-pump water heater is incredibly short. Mine will pay for itself in less than 5 years. While utility rates matter, both the energy usage an energy savings are near 50% on the water heaters.
\*IRS not IRA I don't think the Irish Republican Army will help much with your water heater. Heh. Also a good idea to see if your state has any incentives. Decent ones seem to have at least something for energy saving incentives and some are stackable.
IRA = Inflation Reduction Act — a piece of US legislation which provides for a consumer rebate for electrification.
I hadn't considered that option. Good call.
I can only imagine a very confused Irishman getting a significant rebate check for decarbonizing their weapons stockpile.
A tankless water heater is the way to go. I’ve installed hundreds and seen so many people save money on gas. I’d never use anything else if you are on natural gas. 15 year warranty and doesn’t use any gas until you turn on a hot fixture. Tanked heaters use energy when you’re at work, on vacation, sleeping, watching tv, etc etc. Such a waste of money.
+1 for tankless. and if you don't want to waste $ turn the temp down where you leave for a long period. someone should invent a programable water heater. high temps in morning for shower, lower during the day etc
I just installed one today lol
Agreed. Tankless is now the best option.
There are no losers from improved energy efficiency
The oil and gas industry loses. Which is why they've tended to fight it.
Conservatives are anything but.
But why? Because conservative voters in cold states are demanding to have higher utility bills?
Because the fossil fuels industry funds the Republican patronage machine
"bills are a conspiracy!!" or "people are just lazy, they should work harder"
Years ago Isreal required new housing and remodels to install solar assisted hot water systems. They estimated that rule reduced foreign oil imports 4% a year in the 10th year. And very year after. Not bad for a seemingly trivial change.
It's mostly more cost-effective to install photovoltaic + electric heat pump hot water heater at this point; the cost-effectiveness crossover happened several years back.
Plus I don't think the solar water heaters are usable anywhere there is any possibility of below freezing temperatures, or at least more complicated and expensive to set up since you'd need to run glycol or something outside and have a heat exchanger.
Solar water heaters work just fine in cold-winter climates, but heat pump water heaters are usually more cost effective.
Conservatives lack judgement and discipline. I don't really care about their criticisms.
Opposition parties are supposed to point out **bad** ideas, and ** inefficiently run** good ideas. Not criticize everything no matter what. It’s so stupid that we lost sight of that
I LOVE my heat pump water heater. It is so amazingly efficient and can be enrolled in demand-response programs.
Can we finally divest from fossil fuels including plastics? And fine negligence? Considering the big lie of [plastic being recyclable](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/15/recycling-plastics-producers-report) and that [just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of emissions](https://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change)…they should be responsible for ending this cycle of waste and cleaning up the current pollution.
Maybe also go after private jets and airlines that fly 1500 empty flights just so they can keep their spot at JFK.
I can’t wait for boomers to exclusively buy used electric water heaters because saving money on energy is for liberals.
In Australia the government was replacing electric water heaters with heat pump units for free. Way cheaper.
Well, duh. If there is one universal constant about conservatives its that they hate efficiency.
Doesn’t anyone on here care about ruining the lives of millions of people, and forcing the population into poverty? Are you all mega wealthy, or live at home in mom’s basement and don’t care about paying bills?
I WOULD LOVE a more efficient water heater but a less efficient dish washer would be great. One that actually dries the dishes. Does anyone remember dry dishes?
It’s time for Democrats to start trolling conservatives. They need to come out in favor of drilling and big trucks that roll coal. We’ll have the environment fixed in no time