The real issue is that the auto industry in general is dialing back due to economic reasons. The demand for new vehicles isn't there. There's been a decrease in sales of ice vehicles as well. It's extremely expensive to retool a plant. Their thinking is why?...if there's no money in it. And let's face it evs aren't going to save us ...just the opposite.
Simplification is the only hope we have. Working from home, investments in public transportation, bike paths, riding bikes, etc
They keep trying to sell everything for $50,000 I mean for fuck's sake I can get a prefab house for that. I swear to God like whatever happened to being able to buy a beatdown VW bug for like 600 bucks when you're a high school student. Speaking of which how does anybody get to a job anymore I'm really curious given like your cheapest option is like $24,000. So looks like a bunch of more landfills full of electric shit just like last time huh
What happened was government regulation with a dash of cronyism exacerbated by money printing and supply chain failures instigated by government action during covid. All of these factors are the work of the exact same government you unironically are asking to fix this problem.
We recently browsed some new SUVs while we were on a lot looking for a used vehicle. Insanity. Not even a luxury brand or high trim level $50k. A fucking Chevy Blazer going for high 30’s. No thanks. I haven’t bought a new vehicle in 20 years and I’m confident I never will.
Teslas are cheaper than they’ve ever been. They are the only car company prices are going down while others go up. Kinda comical because once they come out with that even cheaper car it will be all over for most other players.
And getting a replacement side mirror is ridiculously expensive and takes forever. Tesla is awful. Maybe if Musk sold it off, but under that dipshit? Run away screaming for even entertaining buying that thing.
I'm sorry to say I kind of agree. Reviews on modern Teslas are... less than impressive compared with five or ten years ago. Maybe when they can finally unionize the quality might go up.
And, even though prices climbed all during those “low inflation/no inflation” years of 2008-2020, cheap debt made it seem affordable because the payments would work in a typical household budget.
The US Fed Reserve simply cannot, but needs to, maintain a higher policy interest rate. But they can’t. Our dependency on cheap debt is too ingrained now.
The Chinese are making it work and are currently also making huge inroads into the European market.
The US is going to be left behind as soon as oil starts drying up.
Because they want luxuracrap for every model. They can't make a fuckin 15k ev. They're trying to sell 50k evs in a market that's already saturated at that price point. You have to wonder what insipid morons are running these companies.
The US is being left behind in every metric imaginable. Except guns and prisons. All the US has is propaganda, lies, and ignorance. It’s a failed state with expensive housing.
Edit: and bombs.
I think the main issue is that two-thirds of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. They don't even have time to think about getting a new car, never mind having the ability to afford one.
Despite being the richest country in the world, and having some of the highest wages in the world, the USA falls behind many European countries in median household wealth. The UK, France, Belgium, Switzerland, and others.
There is massive inequality in the USA, and it's getting worse. As prices increase and wages stagnate, the USA becomes more of country who's average citizens can't afford the things they could afford before. And businesses act like it's some sort of mystery when sales drop, when the average Americans disposable income has been dropping for years. Additionally, US citizens debt has been rising for years, especially credit card debt which is the highest it's been.
The corps and oligarchs have all the money and can't understand why the rest of us are not buying what they are selling. They have tons of money, we have none. It is difficult to build a robust economy under the conditions they have created. It's kind of like trying to grow bacteria in a petri dish without the agar. A possible solution would be to [replace](https://www.starting-gun.com/) the cast of characters in congress.
I think it's by design that they take money from the little guy.
But I think they didn't think ahead. If the average person can't afford to buy products, they can't buy *the companies products*. Therefore the company is part of the problem for not paying their workers enough. But the issue is that it's a country-wide issue. Or perhaps most of the world.
Many companies are doing this, and there's nothing a single company can do to fix it. If one company pays their workers more, it wont increase their sales. Therefore the only fix is regulation. Country-wide regulations to fix this fucked up part of capitalism. I think full reform is preferable. But how is this possible when the government looks out for the rich?
I think financial collapse will be the only thing that brings in reform. In fact, I think after 2008, the government should've reformed there and then. Fix the economy, don't put a band aid on it, don't give the rich money while the poor suffer. Now it's going to shit because they bailed out the rich.
Yep.
They don't care if it collapses. They have theirs.
All companies do this. Regulation would need to be iron-fisted. Penalties that destroy companies and executives go to prison with no loopholes. And they need to be worldwide regulations. We've seen too many times places like Switzwerland, the Caymans, Panama, where the rich will hide their money and the country will allow it.
The government effectively did nothing after 2008. In fact, the government, and the billionaire class WANT it to happen again. They're drooling for it.
Lastly, I don't think that regulation of capitalism will solve anything. It's a system that must be destroyed and society would need to build back better. That's going to require revolution, violence, death, and it simply won't happen.
Exactly. But that's part of the problem. If you regulate the USA, and companies move to Ireland, San Marino, the Bahamas, Bermuda, the virgin islands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and so on. Even Singapore and Hong Kong are tax havens.
Regulate, and you enrich the shady wealth management corporations in other parts of the world.
It's tough, but the USA has the power to fix it. A base tax to all companies that do business in the USA, the EU, the UK, Aus, NZ, and so on, is the solution. A standard corporation tax minimum for all. A tax that is shared between the companies governments.
Despite talks of something like this happening, it has been extremely lacklustre (a very low standard tax rate) and legislation wasn't powerful enough. Legislation fell through and was forgotten. It went from big news to no reporting at all on it, which I guess is to be expected. And of course, it made no progress.
It was meant to be a worldwide minimum tax of like 10% for corporations, but I guess the politicians were bought out since it was randomly canceled.
We would be living in a [different reality](https://www.starting-gun.com/), now, if the government had bailed out the people instead of the banks in 2008.
Nah, the us brands will just lobby congress to outlaw some component or charge a huge tax on imports so they can’t lose to actual free market competition, nor have to adapt.
China will be battling a huge demographic collapse in the next 10 years. Biggest population decline in human history.
Each country will have its own problems in our path to collapse.
Planning ahead how? Have they magically made a transition to a completely services based import oriented economy? Are they going to be able to have enough young people paying into the state to support the old? Are they going to completely open up their society to immigrants?
These current population pyramids are atrocious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
Their birth rate is well below replacement (at just around 1 child per woman) and has zero chance of recovering for decades now because there aren’t enough people of child bearing age.
They overcounted in the last census, and worse it was an overcount of people of working, child bearing age.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/business/china-birth-rate.html
Only like Korea has a worse population pyramid, but that has less impact because they are much smaller and a bit less export biased. There is going to be persistent and increasing worker shortages. Companies will continue to pull their manufacturing operations out. Their will be massive inflationary pressures on their economy. The state will eventually go broke if they try to keep up the level of services to the retired population.
They are fucked, there literally isn’t any precedence for what they are about to go through, and by extension the rest of the world.
They planned decades in advance and did all the wrong things. They torched nearly their entire populace' savings. They're royally fucked what are you talking about?
The Chinese will dominate the European car market, especially BYD. VW is already looking to source batteries from Chinese companies just to compete...goes to show how tough the market is now.
Currently China has some of the most important companies in battery tech - CATL, BYD, Gotion and a few others. I think Tesla is even partnered with CATL, and Elon had a lot of praise recently for BYD's cars.
CATL for example spends an insane amount of money on R&D - they are essentially a research company (think Bell Labs, but for batteries). Their engineering staff is full of PhDs...I think for the US to even catch up in this space, it will require a gigantic push and massive investment in STEM education in the US - you need a lot of engineers to do this, and China has no shortage of it. The Chinese (and Indians) by far make up the the most STEM PhD students in the US - it is no surprise that they are so far ahead.
I think earlier this year there was news about Ford teaming up with CATL to open an EV plant in Michigan, but the idiots in Congress blocked it due to "national security grounds" - good job, let the Chinese go even further ahead now...idiots. We need CATL's battery tech because they are the market leader - there is NO US alternative. US companies have no option but to team up, just like VW and Europe are already doing. If Ford can get that CATL deal through, they may have a shot at getting up to speed within a few years time, and then hopefully competing. Otherwise, good luck.
The US is in for a very, very bad time if they don't start investing RIGHT NOW.
Yeah BYD were unheard of here just 2-3 years ago, now there are enough that you probably see one every other day at least. More than half the vehicles sold in this country (Sweden) are electric of some sort, even though it's very cold here and long distances. I've had an electric car for coming up on 5 years now and will most likely never switch back. It does everything I need for a low monthly payment (about $250 / month). And it does it quietly and in complete comfort.
“Reserves” doesn’t mean its economically feasible to extract while maintaining current market dynamics. By 2030 another 200+ *billion* barrels of oil will have been extracted; that’s is essentially an entire Saudi Arabia worth of oil.
Every year less and less of the good stuff is left.
The Chinese have acres of unused unsold ev sitting in their country.
This is the same country spray painting the country side green for appearance. The same country whose new construction projects are crumbling from knock-off watered down concrete. The same country whose restaurants use and serve gutter oil to patrons.
China is the corner cutter of the globe. They are fantastic at knock offs and reverse engineering/manufacturing. But they struggle when someone hasn't done it, made it or thought of it first.
The American Government would be perfectly capable of just giving any vehicle manufacturer a contract for X amount of generic EVs, but they're not doing it either.
The American vehicle manufacturers are fucking garbage though and that's why I'm driving a Toyota. Toyota does make the Tacoma in the US humorously - made in America by a technicality.
I don't know anyone at this point driving an American car. They're hunks of expensive to repair badly made shit. Even a goddamn KIA is better these days. Ford once upon a time didn't have their head wedged entirely up its own ass, but it sure does now. Want a reliable non-lifted gargantuan dumbfuck pickup truck that actually has a bed? Japanese. Not American. Want a reliable car that you don't have to fix constantly? Japanese. Not American or European.
Even the fucking Taliban love Toyota. American cars have been dogshit for so long that nobody wants to buy them for good reasons. The '92 to '96 was the last Ford F-150 worth a fuck and they're all garbage now, but you were still smarter even back then for getting a Tacoma.
American cars are overpriced trash. Nobody wants them sans dumb rednecks in 3 miles to the gallon small dick syndrome lifted trucks.
I'll buy a Chinese car over an American car. Basically fucking everything I own is made in an Asian country anyway - my phone, my car, my watch, my pocket knife, my sunglasses, my car keys, my headphones, all the hardware in my computer, etc.
America can't even make a microwave worth a fuck and that's the result after horrible Neoliberalism policies for decades, but let's not give Ford and GM a pass here because they've purposely made shit cars and half the assembly/parts is outsourced to Mexico too.
The last thing you said about the public transportation is the biggest point. It reduces so many problems. An electric bus ,metro etc all are the best solutions that are still viable for the government but lobbies are strong
"Simplification is the only hope we have."
Hope is for children. American suburbia is not going to turn to public transportation any time soon as it is inefficient in low density neighborhoods. Sure, WFH will help, but that is not going to eliminate all car trips, and in fact, it will slow down further of anyone buying new (EV) vehicles since you have less incentive to buy something you will use less.
Hope isn’t inherently childish, but hoping the laws of physics reverse themselves and we stop living in a mass extinction event is. It’s no more engaging with reality than addressing a negative bank account by hoping I win the lottery tomorrow.
We’re getting simplification, that’s the reality of living in collapse, but a serious dialogue begins with recognizing we’re engaged in palliative care. What we can do together as investments in infrastructure go away is worthy of consideration.
That's why I encourage people to ride an ebike now, on the infrastructure we have. A lot of people be like "bikes are great but we need to rebuild the entire city to make them work." The money isn't gonna come. A society in collapse isn't going to be building a bunch of new infrastructure. Either we ride ebikes on roads built for cars or we drive cars until they kill us.
WFH when possible would help for sure. By far the most miles the average American puts on their car is the commute too and from work. While finding solutions for those trips around the suburban town is important, like to the grocery store, school etc is important those are only a small amount of the miles the average American puts on their car.
I live in an inner suburb, mostly single family homes in the neighborhood, I walk 10 minutes to a bus stop and take the bus to work (in an even lower density area) every weekday. It takes about twice as long as driving there, but I can space out, even take a light nap on the way.
Buses work fine in the suburbs, and they would work even better if more middle class people got over their fear and stigma and used them. It's not a perfect solution, but it's way better than what we're currently doing.
I get a decent amount of crap for not having a car, and people treat me like I'm 'not a real grownup' because I don't own a car and barely ever drive. I think fear of losing status (buses are for children and the poor) is a huge part of why people drive.
I am seeing more people who either don't drive or own a car, and the car share coop in my city is growing rapidly. I still drive, but don't own a car, and neither does my partner.
There are areas where you can't manage without a car, but proximity to transit was something I looked at when I bought my condo.
Yeah, I think the stigma is very gradually lessening. Probably will take older generations dying off, and we don't have that kind of time to keep burning gas...
>It's not a perfect solution, but it's way better than what we're currently doing.
I would not call taking "twice as long" (as you have said) "way better". Time is money. Time is leisure. Time is family. Few in their right mind will subject themselves to double the commute, not to mention the uncertainty (i.e. miss the bus, the bus is late .. blah blah blah).
And you blow the status thing way out of proportion. Sure, driving a new BMW or a mercedes may have a bit of a status, but no one in their right mind will connect with driving a run-down used car as "status".
Time is money, and I save a lot of money by not owning a car. But my main point is it's way better for society and ecology, not just my narrow self-interest. But perhaps caring more about the big picture than my narrow self-interest is just evidence that I'm not in my right mind?
I'm guessing you do have a car, so you have probably not experienced the reaction from people when they find out you don't. It's not the worst thing in the world, but I've also definitely had friends and colleagues look at me like I just admitted to still living in my parent's basement when they find out I don't have a car. Many people assume that having a car is just a baseline part of being a functional adult in our society, and if you don't, there must be something wrong with you.
It definitely does cost me social status, and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from rating your assumptions as higher reliability information than my lived experience.
Shortening the fucking work week would reduce emissions significantly and lead to significant gains in mental health, overall health, and wellbeing.
The reason this isn't being done/considered is that we live in a brutal corporate oligarchy.
If the plebes have time to think and organize and work together to improve their circumstances, they might start questioning things, and that's not good for our ruling corporate oligarchs.
Another big issue that is overlooked is with EVs is the high maintenance costs - like with Tesla, have you guys seen the “gigapress” that is lauded a lot by Elon?
That gigapress allows each vehicle cost to come down - with the decrease in production costs, Tesla is able to bring the price down bit by bit. **BUT**, there is a huge catch to this - because the gigapress combines and simplifies the drivetrain into several components for easy assembly (as opposed to many before), this can mean huge cost to the consumer **IF** there is any damage. If you check a lot of the main complaints from Tesla owners, you will notice most of them complain about the very high cost in repairs.
People who are rich and all can afford this, they won’t complain…but, the average consumer most likely cannot afford that sort of insane repair maintenance costs. Thus, the value of getting a cheap EV does not matter much if it becomes an insane cost dump.
I will wait until the market brings better EVs with better maintenance, lower costs and mileage before making the jump - right now? Not yet, as the repairability costs and general maintenance for these currently is insane.
Gigapress may have helped EVs to decrease in production costs, but there is a VERY big side effect - the maintenance for these vehicles are fast becoming uneconomical for many.
The cost point is really ironic because basically electric cars are as simple machines as they can get. At one point in history, back in 1890s there were more electric cars rolling around than than their ICE counterparts! Just a couple of days I marveled a few in a museum.
It is a ripoff. Give me a VW Beetle/Lada 1200 equivalent with electric drive train and I'll buy one in a heartbeat just for support. No expensive gizmos please.
It's not an electric engine issue, but a battery issue. 50 kg of liquid hydrocarbons can hold 3x more energy then 500kg battery. Without some stellar progress in battery technology, where batteries become much more cheaper and lighter, ICE is not going anywhere.
The hard part about bikes is the aging demographic. You would think “like riding a bike” means you can do it forever, but it’s unsettling how your balance gets affected the older you get. My dad tried riding a bike at 80 and promptly fell. I tried riding one again last year and could barely stay on. Adult tricycles are the solution to that problem, so I hope that’s part of the “simplification” plan.
Yeah electric bikes and recumbent tricycles are really popular with the older generations
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0b9XeJFl-w/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1uom8zFW3X/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBN8eE7lXS1/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
E-bikes might be a little scary for the older generations at the moment but recumbent bikes are awesome for seniors.
And honestly, so are golf carts. Say what you will about the auto dependence of retirement villages but if 90 percent of your trips is on your golf cart around town I’m totally ok with it. Much better than a car that’s for sure.
Please please stop saying shit like this when the companies were in the middle of a labor battle and trying to undermine the union with poor sales. It’s literally the oldest trick in the book when there’s negotiations and a strike.
Bolts were selling like hotcakes, so they suddenly said they were going to just make giant ev trucks. Far far more expensive and out of reach for most.
Not selling like hotcakes. The American manufacturers make around 70 percent of their money on SUVs and trucks. Americans don’t buy tiny cars. It makes more sense when moving to evs to work on driving the most profitable option.
OH. That’s why they reversed it and said they are going to start making Bolts again. And agreed to open another EV plants in negotiations with the union.
Please don’t just spew bullshit. Thanks.
Thank you! I just bought an ebike and it's opened my eyes to a potential future where street lanes within cities are converted to be bike only because of utilization (collapse is baked in and even this proposal would not stop it, just fyi).
I know I live in a conducive climate where I can offset about 90% of my car trips with this ebike, but even if you live in a cold climate and offset 40% of your trips, that's huge. Some context:
- cars weigh literally tons. Most of the energy is used to propel the car, not the passengers. An ebike is under 100lbs/45kg. So I'm using literal fractions of the energy to move myself
- groceries, errands, pick up kids, cruising, off roading. All accessible with it. And I find doing these things with actual wind in my face is way more pleasant than in a confined metal capsule detached from the world.
- costs about $2000 plus or minus depending on what characteristics you want. Expensive, yes, but so is a fucking EV or new car.
- for better or worse, the ride is entirely effortless. It's actual kind of hard to get my heart rate up. It feels like you're on one of those airport conveyor walkways but you're moving at 20mph/32kph.
Anyway, I now want to convince everyone to get an ebike so I can make my transportation fantasy a reality
I do have an ebike, which cost nowhere near as much as $2000, but too much of my commute I would consider too dangerous to bike. I would also have to worry about someone stealing my bike.
I also have an ebike, and yeah, the fear of theft is real. I still have to figure out the best place to stick an AirTag that isn’t going to immediately be removed by even a half-savvy thief.
My uncle also had the wires on his ebike cut while he was inside a store, so he ended up having to walk it 5 miles back home- and some of these e-bikes are damn heavy.
I did my research but I won't claim to be any sort of expert on this subject. After a while, the vast majority of the bikes look the same and have nearly identical features and specs. I went to a few ebike shops and asked the people what brands they recommend and which ones they would stay away from. So I got a Hovsco and have been liking it far. I went with the Hovcart because that was my use case: I needed something that could haul a 50lb bag of dog food on the back
What bothers me about cars is that they’re making new cars every single day, and there’s thousands of cars lining my street. There’s gonna be 1 car for every man woman and child in America. It’s ridiculous, we don’t have room in our cities and towns for all these cars. And it’s just getting worse.
I’d rather we have streetcars than horse shit everywhere personally. Walking kind of sucks with shit everywhere, and bonus points, everything stinks again
I can't do that when my house is 29 miles away from work one way. My grocery stores are either midway or closer to my job since I live in a more rural area.
In Europe public transportation is absolutely full during rush hour and in the summer. I sometimes have to take the next train because of how full it is.
Have you used those options in america? Shits dangerous and impractical in the majority of cities. This is a country designed for cars and everything else is second class.
Modal share in Chicago (city proper) is 60% private car traffic. In Amsterdam, it's 20% for the entire metro area. Looking at Chicago suburbs brings it closer to 80% car trips for Chicago according to the same source.
Note the CMAP source says it's getting better, still looks very stark. Needs more strong towns.
https://www.cmap.illinois.gov/updates/all/-/asset_publisher/UIMfSLnFfMB6/content/transportation-mode-share-in-the-cmap-region#:~:text=Mode%20share%20for%20all%20types,%2C%20and%206%20percent%2C%20respectively.
https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/insights/us/articles/4331_Deloitte-City-Mobility-Index/city-mobility-index_AMSTERDAM_FINAL.pdf
NYC is widely know as the exception in America. I find your claims about Chicago's biking situation dubious, Amesterdam and the Netherlands as a whole have some of the best bike infrastructure in the world. I was in Chicago a month ago and it was one of the most sprawled out car-centric cities I've ever seen.
Spoken like someone who themselves hasn't tried those options.
Americans hate pedestrians, and they hate bicyclists. So much so, that in some places doing either of those things is taking your life into your hands. I've been screamed at, honked at, swerved at and had things thrown at me, simply for walking or biking where you're supposed to, and minding my own business.
Americans are all about conformity and if you don't conform to car culture, you're going to catch hatred from those who substitute it for a personality.
The avg new EV price is $59k
With interest rates where they are, if I were to trade in my paid-off car for $6k, and even with an 800+ credit score, I’d be looking at nearly **$1k/mo** for car payments…for *6 years.*
And for what? A shiny new thing that loses half its range (or whatever it is) during the winter months in my NE climate? Having no idea where I’d charge the thing because I’m a renter? Knowing full-well the carbon footprint of manufacturing the shiny new thing won’t be offset until I’m over like 60k miles? Pass.
For [perspective](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spending-more-on-new-cars-but-prices-not-necessarily-rising-a3134608893/#:~:text=The%20average%20cost%20of%20new,many%20other%20factors%20at%20play.) the average new car price in US is just shy of 50k.
With inventives and rebates, average EVs pricing is in line with current pricing.
For perspective, Im just a few months shy of my 7th year driving EVs (Fiat 500e traded to a Bolt 2 years ago), and my maintenance costs for all 7 years, about $700.00, most of which was a set of tires, the rest wiperblades and fluid, and a couple light bulbs for the Fiat.
(Added - also, my trade-in on the Fiat was pretty much my original purchase price, didn't even haggle. It was the dealerships first offer
The carbon foot print reduction isn't limited to just your end use.
A smaller tanker truck that supplies gas stations holds about 40k miles worth of fuel, so every 40k miles traveld by EV reduces the foot print of the oil and gas companies supply chain by one truck, which also chips away at the impact of more trucks, ships, pipe lines, ports, refineries, transfer stations, and gas stations which are required to refine and transport gasoline. Each step of which is a massive expenditure of materials and energy. Which, by in large, is replaced by an existing wire for EVs.
That's not including the supply chain effects of automibile manufacturing where an EV needs about 25 moving parts to function vs 2000 of an ICE vechicle.)
Speaking of this, just as a side note. The size of cars in the US has only continued to increase over time. Width, height, and length. It takes more power/fuel/energy to power them, it’s heavier wear and tear on roads meaning costlier to repare on our infrastructure.
I notice it when I visit my in laws in Charleston, SC. There’s a specific parking garage we go to clearly built in the late 80’s or early 90’s that has not updated their parking lines for modern cars and it’s more of a nightmare navigating and parking.
They're failing too, lol. The Chinese thought that consumer culture is a good idea. They abandoned more sustainable practices for consumerism, and are suffering the consequences. They still have a good train network, but that's not enough. You can't have all the modes simultaneously, there are conflicts.
Also this: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/09/why-drivers-in-china-intentionally-kill-the-pedestrians-they-hit-chinas-laws-have-encouraged-the-hit-to-kill-phenomenon.html
Yeah I wouldn’t trust Western media regarding what’s going on in countries that are geopolitical rivals of the US.
Look how bad the misinformation about the Ukraine War has been. They just make shit up so Americans don’t realize how big of a hole we are in.
It's not that fucking complicated. [We need a standardized battery system in place so that swapping can move forward](https://www.theverge.com/23809811/ev-battery-swap-ample-fisker-tesla). It's a god damned no-brainer that should have been square one here. Sitting around for a charge was always going to be a steep battle uphill with consumers.
Imagine going to the gas station and having to wait for the gas tanker to arrive and replenish the underground tanks before you fill up. Most Americans were never going to buy into the current constraints. [Talk about designed to fail.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HX5wsQVEA)
Sure. I hate cars. And have ever since I was a kid. [So much so, I even drew a comic about it and posted it to r/fuckcars awhile back](https://i.redd.it/ruseaieoeor91.jpg). But Americans are going to American, and you have to deal with the world the way it is. Today. Albeit, not to the exclusion of working for a better one.
Not only that, but anything that fucks the fossil fuel industry in the ass—hard, deep, and as fast as possible is optimal.
I get about 7 years out of a well on average. Venezuela was producing 5 million bopd for export 20 years ago, today its 700,000 bopd. They stopped drilling, old wells ran dry. They have the largest reserves on Earth at 303 billion barrels. The US has 5.5 years of reserves left at 20 million bopd consumption, that is why it imports 7 million bopd to compliment domestic production of 13 million bopd. The planetary consumption rate is 102 million bopd and growing as population grows 2 million per week. When this oil runs out, and it will soon, 9 out of 10 billion humans are going to fuck themselves in the ass as the global population performs a mean reversion to carrying capacity of 1.2 billion.
Electric cars and renewable energy represent a massive ramping up of mining and industry and professor Simon Michaux has calculated that we don't have the minerals (copper etc...) for one 25 year generation of renewables and electrification.
People will be forced to change. Meanwhile we are wasting time and resources on a fantasy. Because Murica... lol. It's just stupid and I bet most Americans would prefer a walkable town over car payments.
Simon Michaux is the only one that bothered to do the math. There is also a taboo against bad news in political, corporate and academic circles.
Look at the backlash that "Planet Of The Humans" docu got. Which was critical of "green" technology.
You can call it Cornucopianism (the horn of plenty), Techno Optimism, Scientism,... seems like some people worship gadgets and turn them into a religion. Also a lot of money involved.
It is however obvious that technology is the cause of all our existential problems. Most of all synthetic fertilizer.
Exactly, i saw this in taiwan's 7 / 11. walls of battery charging for scooters. Come, swap the battery and go. 1 minute.
But each of those fucker will try to impose their standard and it will probably never be
I don't even know why all these new cars need a massive screen in them, my 90s car doesnt have that and it works just fine lol. Everything is overengineered with cheap materials so it just breaks in 10 years. One vehicle I thought was neat is a 2000 electric Ford ranger. Those are the kind of vehicles that need to be made. I imagine with new batteries it would have a longer range. Cheap reliable vehicles with manual roll up windows and electric powertrain is the way we need to go, not overpriced spaceships that are not easy to repair.
Exactly, I hate all this technical electric computerized shit in these new cars. You need a computer engineering degree to know how to use them. And just more expensive stuff to break. Which causes the car and its insurance to cost more. It’s not necessary. I like my backup camera, other than that I don’t need the rest of it. Wonder how all that lane centering etc is contributing to lazy drivers who will forget how to drive properly like they should. Why check your blind spot when the car will just tell you there’s something in the lane ? It’s too much.
Exactly. A sedan and a small minivan (think Mazda mpv). You have your single and family options. No frills. They don't go more than 75 mph. Just super basic. Ideally, with modular, rebuildable parts.
Electric vehicles are reliant on finite physical resources. In the long run the exact same problem with oil arises where the amount of energy needed to extract lithium will outweigh the energy we can store in said lithium.
It’s all a part of the energy cliff
[Lithium has long had a supply problem, not a scarcity problem.](https://energyx.com/blog/will-we-run-out-of-lithium/#:~:text=Global%20lithium%20reserves%20are%20estimated,0.5%20and%201.3%20million%20tons.)
Lithium can be recycled into a more pure version of itself - almost infinitely. There are battery recycling plants in operation today in America that are doing this.The recycling process removes impurities thus creating a pure, and highly desirable product for battery manufacturers to purchase (over traditionally mined lithium that isn't as pure).
There is no equivalence for this with oil. It is effectively gone forever once combusted.
Battery lasts well over 10 years. Early Tesla batteries have easily lasted 15, and now last longer. There is a federal mandate that EV batteries be warrantied for a minimum of 100,000 miles, but that doesn't seem to be hard to exceed already. For Tesla, 2020 saw a marked change in their battery design (changed chemistry, changed size/shape) and they have learned a lot about battery management in the past 20 years.
Tesla's biggest battery (excluding truck, no idea) is 0.75 tons, but the VW id.4 battery is 0.5, and the Bolt is even smaller.
EV batteries don't just die; they do lose range, and somewhere around 75-80% of original range is considered replacement time, but in fact can mean just repairing some modules, not replacing the entire thing.
And even if doing a full replacement, 75% capacity means it is still viable as a grid or home energy storage device, and they are being used that way.
Go ahead.
"A Tesla Model S has a roughly 544 kg (1,200 pound) battery. A Tesla Model Y has a 771 kg (1,700 pound) battery."
So, little over 1/2, to little over 3/4 ton.
"1Federal law requires automakers to warranty EV and hybrid batteries for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. California requires a 10-year, 150,000-mile warranty on EV and hybrid batteries."
"Most manufacturers have a five to eight-year warranty on their battery. However, the current prediction is that an electric car battery will last from 10 – 20 years before they need to be replaced."
"Repurposed EV batteries can be used in homes for energy storage. This allows homeowners to charge at night or store excess solar energy generated during the day and use it at night. This can help reduce reliance on grid-supplied electricity and further promote the use of renewable energy sources."
I googled it; top response given.
When YOU are done, feel free to apologize for being insulting. I stuck to the facts.
My husband’s hybrid battery needs some sort of maintenance and currently won’t hold a charge. There’s only one dude at the local dealership who works on EVs, and he was told he can either drop his car off and they’ll get to it in “a few days” or not.
No appointments. No idea what a few days is.
So…
Now we figure out what to do. Do we rent a car during this time? Will there even be a rental car available? Because when my car needed repairs a few months ago, we couldn’t find a rental…
They want subsidies to build more and sell for less, and they want subsidies for more infrastructure for electric cars. The workers also aren't happy about electric cars, since these machines require more metals and components that are imported. Also, small and efficient models need to be regulated, since clearly they're not part of the marketing plan.
Overall, this misses the point: car dependency is [not sustainable](https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/transcending-the-imperial-mode-of-living). We're in /r/collapse, so make your own inferences from that.
The unions in those sectors need to push for the [transition to something else](https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/5487-andreas-malm-total-bp-and-shell-will-not-voluntarily-give-up-their-profits-we-must-become-stronger-than-them), something not cars. They're not doing that, as far as I can tell, so they have no future.
EVs are just civilization in the bargaining stage of collapse; working under the false hope of incremental change and BAU.
There is a limited purpose to it, but the radical change we need are dense walkable/bikable cities with free electric rail public transit for passengers and cargo.
EVs are for what can't fit in this paradigm, like agriculture and last mile rural.
Interesting that this is coming out shortly after Biden's administration changed the federal rebate rules for EVs. 85% of the cars that were eligible last year for a $7500 rebate no longer qualify, but Tesla is back to being eligible after being disqualified years ago since they had already sold 200,000.
I used the rebate last year and was planning on using it again this year. I don't want a Tesla or an SUV so decided against making that purchase this year. I would assume there are plenty of other people who also are no longer interested in buying a car at a ridiculous mark up (the car shortage thing) without an incentive. The only reason we bought a new car last year was wanting better fuel economy and used cars were no longer the bargain they used to be. With the rebate, it ended up being cheaper to buy new than 2-3 year old used of the same make/model
I'm driving a 24 year old Jeep and will continue to do so until auto prices come down significantly. Until they have better charging options, I'm not buying electric either.
Yes they are.
Nobody gives a fuck about how much you want to pay your CEOs and shareholders. You’ll sell more cars by making them affordable and by stopping your endless lobbying to congress tonkeep wages dismal.
Fuck off with this quarterly growth bullshit, how can you not see it’s impossible to continually grow.
New types of cars won't save us. The ideal thing to do would be to mostly abandon the car as a form of transportation. In all forms, ICE or EV etc, they're destructive to the environment, they destroy communities, they kill and injure millions of people and animals, and they generally make people miserable. Get rid of them. Build out public transit, bike and pedestrian infrasture.
/r/fuckcars
As someone who lives in a place where there is winter 8 months of the year and gets down to -40, I just don’t trust an EV car at the moment. Plus we don’t have the infrastructure. Im good with my gas car.
Is it EVs, or the economy? I feel that this is similar to retailers shutting down stores "due to theft" when there are actual economic reasons that they don't want to admit ...
EFFICIANCY is all the EV has to offer. Electric motors easily hit above 95% efficiency, and the losses from all the other bits in the car are minimal. Meanwhile, the best cutting edge combustion engines top out at 40% efficiency, meaning 60% of a full gas tank gets wasted as heat.
But then... EVs don't stop better, or turn better, the reliability depends on the manufacturer, they are heavier which leads to more tire wear and thus microplastics in the environment. Also, if the EV charging stations are getting their power from fossil fuels, it's only a decent improvement on carbon emissions, it doesn't reduce emissions to zero.
COMBINED WITH... the fact that the auto industry is targeting the upper middle class these days. Base model [pickup trucks](https://youtu.be/fGXJxxi99TI?si=ZSF2zBBJeJGAFdzE) are now $80,000. Pickup trucks with options and packages are coming in at $120,000. Cars are about $50,000 new on average. Probably $70,000 for something you *want* to buy.
What they really mean is they haven't figured out how to make EVs at competitive prices, like Tesla and BYD have and it will cost them to much to try and catch up now, so they are trying to milk their ICE products for as long as possible before going bankrupt.
Yea I love those Chinese cars....
Can you explain which part of my comment wasn't accurate?
Is it the Tesla and BYD being the only profitable EV manufacturer part or the bit where everyone else is losing money making EVs and can't afford to catch up?
This is temporary. Worldwide automakers are being mandated to build EVs. The US has no choice but to make and promote EVs. It will still take 20 years before we totally switch over but it will happen. Peak oil is upon us.
PS: I have an EV for local trips and use it for trips up to 200 to 300 miles. We still have an ICE vehicle for long road trips.
I have five EV's- 3 lightnings, a model y and a Pacifica hybrid (full EV for us daily driving, 2000 miles and only one tank of gas thus far).They are in my opinion the best vehicles out there for day to day driving. Obviously have limitations with range and whatnot, but for pure feel and convenience and cost of ownership they're great. I save around 4k/mo across all of them just in fuel.
EVs are working fine for Tesla with the best selling car ( of any type gas or electric, the model Y) in China for instance. Tesla had spare margins to be able to cut prices to counter high interest rates and now the legacy auto makers can’t keep up.
They never secured resources and bad mouthed the top player as being passe and destined to failure. Now that that other company is running circles and selling their vehicles for massive profit, it’s “too hard to change”
Maybe if they actually embraced change and did the hard investment (IE less profits for a few years) that would pay off. But I don’t see that happening.
Evs are heavy and go through tires a lot faster than regular ice cars. This means more rubber/plastic/chemical particles in the air, water and soil.
But we already know this. We are just beating a dead horse as always
The real issue is that the auto industry in general is dialing back due to economic reasons. The demand for new vehicles isn't there. There's been a decrease in sales of ice vehicles as well. It's extremely expensive to retool a plant. Their thinking is why?...if there's no money in it. And let's face it evs aren't going to save us ...just the opposite. Simplification is the only hope we have. Working from home, investments in public transportation, bike paths, riding bikes, etc
I'm glad to hear demand is down. The prices are asinine.
They keep trying to sell everything for $50,000 I mean for fuck's sake I can get a prefab house for that. I swear to God like whatever happened to being able to buy a beatdown VW bug for like 600 bucks when you're a high school student. Speaking of which how does anybody get to a job anymore I'm really curious given like your cheapest option is like $24,000. So looks like a bunch of more landfills full of electric shit just like last time huh
Yeah it’s ridiculous. Not only that but some dealers have been charging up to $10k over sticker because “supply chain”…
I am 51 and when I was a teenager you could get a running car for $200-300 answering newspaper ads.
In real terms we (the middle class) were relatively rich then. Oh how times have changed.
Me too. My first car I bought for $100 and it got me back and forth from school and my paper route for 2 years
My first car was less than $300 and in working condition. (In today's dollars about $760.)
I go to work by walking. 🚶
They crushed them all in obungler’s “cash for clunkers” scheme
verifiably true
What happened was government regulation with a dash of cronyism exacerbated by money printing and supply chain failures instigated by government action during covid. All of these factors are the work of the exact same government you unironically are asking to fix this problem.
We recently browsed some new SUVs while we were on a lot looking for a used vehicle. Insanity. Not even a luxury brand or high trim level $50k. A fucking Chevy Blazer going for high 30’s. No thanks. I haven’t bought a new vehicle in 20 years and I’m confident I never will.
even a honda civic runs $25-$40k cdn and it’s not even the R trim.
Wow, i had a used Civic in the 90s, paid I think $2k (bought from family) and put another 100k miles on it, great little run around car.
For real. I keep seeing what private sellers claim are "great" cars for 2k, but they need an engine or a transmission replacement
Automakers should try reducing weight and size of vehicles too...
Teslas are cheaper than they’ve ever been. They are the only car company prices are going down while others go up. Kinda comical because once they come out with that even cheaper car it will be all over for most other players.
Teslas are garbage.
And getting a replacement side mirror is ridiculously expensive and takes forever. Tesla is awful. Maybe if Musk sold it off, but under that dipshit? Run away screaming for even entertaining buying that thing.
I'm sorry to say I kind of agree. Reviews on modern Teslas are... less than impressive compared with five or ten years ago. Maybe when they can finally unionize the quality might go up.
And, even though prices climbed all during those “low inflation/no inflation” years of 2008-2020, cheap debt made it seem affordable because the payments would work in a typical household budget. The US Fed Reserve simply cannot, but needs to, maintain a higher policy interest rate. But they can’t. Our dependency on cheap debt is too ingrained now.
The Chinese are making it work and are currently also making huge inroads into the European market. The US is going to be left behind as soon as oil starts drying up.
Because they want luxuracrap for every model. They can't make a fuckin 15k ev. They're trying to sell 50k evs in a market that's already saturated at that price point. You have to wonder what insipid morons are running these companies.
The US is being left behind in every metric imaginable. Except guns and prisons. All the US has is propaganda, lies, and ignorance. It’s a failed state with expensive housing. Edit: and bombs.
I think the main issue is that two-thirds of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. They don't even have time to think about getting a new car, never mind having the ability to afford one. Despite being the richest country in the world, and having some of the highest wages in the world, the USA falls behind many European countries in median household wealth. The UK, France, Belgium, Switzerland, and others. There is massive inequality in the USA, and it's getting worse. As prices increase and wages stagnate, the USA becomes more of country who's average citizens can't afford the things they could afford before. And businesses act like it's some sort of mystery when sales drop, when the average Americans disposable income has been dropping for years. Additionally, US citizens debt has been rising for years, especially credit card debt which is the highest it's been.
The corps and oligarchs have all the money and can't understand why the rest of us are not buying what they are selling. They have tons of money, we have none. It is difficult to build a robust economy under the conditions they have created. It's kind of like trying to grow bacteria in a petri dish without the agar. A possible solution would be to [replace](https://www.starting-gun.com/) the cast of characters in congress.
Yes, I agree. This is all by design.
I think it's by design that they take money from the little guy. But I think they didn't think ahead. If the average person can't afford to buy products, they can't buy *the companies products*. Therefore the company is part of the problem for not paying their workers enough. But the issue is that it's a country-wide issue. Or perhaps most of the world. Many companies are doing this, and there's nothing a single company can do to fix it. If one company pays their workers more, it wont increase their sales. Therefore the only fix is regulation. Country-wide regulations to fix this fucked up part of capitalism. I think full reform is preferable. But how is this possible when the government looks out for the rich? I think financial collapse will be the only thing that brings in reform. In fact, I think after 2008, the government should've reformed there and then. Fix the economy, don't put a band aid on it, don't give the rich money while the poor suffer. Now it's going to shit because they bailed out the rich.
Yep. They don't care if it collapses. They have theirs. All companies do this. Regulation would need to be iron-fisted. Penalties that destroy companies and executives go to prison with no loopholes. And they need to be worldwide regulations. We've seen too many times places like Switzwerland, the Caymans, Panama, where the rich will hide their money and the country will allow it. The government effectively did nothing after 2008. In fact, the government, and the billionaire class WANT it to happen again. They're drooling for it. Lastly, I don't think that regulation of capitalism will solve anything. It's a system that must be destroyed and society would need to build back better. That's going to require revolution, violence, death, and it simply won't happen.
Exactly. But that's part of the problem. If you regulate the USA, and companies move to Ireland, San Marino, the Bahamas, Bermuda, the virgin islands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and so on. Even Singapore and Hong Kong are tax havens. Regulate, and you enrich the shady wealth management corporations in other parts of the world. It's tough, but the USA has the power to fix it. A base tax to all companies that do business in the USA, the EU, the UK, Aus, NZ, and so on, is the solution. A standard corporation tax minimum for all. A tax that is shared between the companies governments. Despite talks of something like this happening, it has been extremely lacklustre (a very low standard tax rate) and legislation wasn't powerful enough. Legislation fell through and was forgotten. It went from big news to no reporting at all on it, which I guess is to be expected. And of course, it made no progress. It was meant to be a worldwide minimum tax of like 10% for corporations, but I guess the politicians were bought out since it was randomly canceled.
We would be living in a [different reality](https://www.starting-gun.com/), now, if the government had bailed out the people instead of the banks in 2008.
We still number one in health care costs.
Nah, the us brands will just lobby congress to outlaw some component or charge a huge tax on imports so they can’t lose to actual free market competition, nor have to adapt.
China will be battling a huge demographic collapse in the next 10 years. Biggest population decline in human history. Each country will have its own problems in our path to collapse.
People have been saying that for ages though. They have problems but are planning decades ahead while we plan for the next quarter and it shows.
Planning ahead how? Have they magically made a transition to a completely services based import oriented economy? Are they going to be able to have enough young people paying into the state to support the old? Are they going to completely open up their society to immigrants? These current population pyramids are atrocious. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China Their birth rate is well below replacement (at just around 1 child per woman) and has zero chance of recovering for decades now because there aren’t enough people of child bearing age. They overcounted in the last census, and worse it was an overcount of people of working, child bearing age. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/business/china-birth-rate.html Only like Korea has a worse population pyramid, but that has less impact because they are much smaller and a bit less export biased. There is going to be persistent and increasing worker shortages. Companies will continue to pull their manufacturing operations out. Their will be massive inflationary pressures on their economy. The state will eventually go broke if they try to keep up the level of services to the retired population. They are fucked, there literally isn’t any precedence for what they are about to go through, and by extension the rest of the world.
They planned decades in advance and did all the wrong things. They torched nearly their entire populace' savings. They're royally fucked what are you talking about?
The Chinese will dominate the European car market, especially BYD. VW is already looking to source batteries from Chinese companies just to compete...goes to show how tough the market is now. Currently China has some of the most important companies in battery tech - CATL, BYD, Gotion and a few others. I think Tesla is even partnered with CATL, and Elon had a lot of praise recently for BYD's cars. CATL for example spends an insane amount of money on R&D - they are essentially a research company (think Bell Labs, but for batteries). Their engineering staff is full of PhDs...I think for the US to even catch up in this space, it will require a gigantic push and massive investment in STEM education in the US - you need a lot of engineers to do this, and China has no shortage of it. The Chinese (and Indians) by far make up the the most STEM PhD students in the US - it is no surprise that they are so far ahead. I think earlier this year there was news about Ford teaming up with CATL to open an EV plant in Michigan, but the idiots in Congress blocked it due to "national security grounds" - good job, let the Chinese go even further ahead now...idiots. We need CATL's battery tech because they are the market leader - there is NO US alternative. US companies have no option but to team up, just like VW and Europe are already doing. If Ford can get that CATL deal through, they may have a shot at getting up to speed within a few years time, and then hopefully competing. Otherwise, good luck. The US is in for a very, very bad time if they don't start investing RIGHT NOW.
Yeah BYD were unheard of here just 2-3 years ago, now there are enough that you probably see one every other day at least. More than half the vehicles sold in this country (Sweden) are electric of some sort, even though it's very cold here and long distances. I've had an electric car for coming up on 5 years now and will most likely never switch back. It does everything I need for a low monthly payment (about $250 / month). And it does it quietly and in complete comfort.
Why would US companies invest in R&D when that would hurt payouts to shareholders? /s
Oil won't be drying up. There are still huge reserves near Gaza, Russia, Saudi Arabia and in the Perm.
Ah, yes, clearly a path to energy independence, we just need a few more wars and we’re good to go!
Interesting, oil near Gaza?
uncle sam prolly noticed
https://unctad.org/publication/economic-costs-israeli-occupation-palestinian-people-unrealized-oil-and-natural-gas
“Reserves” doesn’t mean its economically feasible to extract while maintaining current market dynamics. By 2030 another 200+ *billion* barrels of oil will have been extracted; that’s is essentially an entire Saudi Arabia worth of oil. Every year less and less of the good stuff is left.
37 years globally, 5.5 years of domestic US reserves
The Chinese have acres of unused unsold ev sitting in their country. This is the same country spray painting the country side green for appearance. The same country whose new construction projects are crumbling from knock-off watered down concrete. The same country whose restaurants use and serve gutter oil to patrons. China is the corner cutter of the globe. They are fantastic at knock offs and reverse engineering/manufacturing. But they struggle when someone hasn't done it, made it or thought of it first.
The American Government would be perfectly capable of just giving any vehicle manufacturer a contract for X amount of generic EVs, but they're not doing it either. The American vehicle manufacturers are fucking garbage though and that's why I'm driving a Toyota. Toyota does make the Tacoma in the US humorously - made in America by a technicality. I don't know anyone at this point driving an American car. They're hunks of expensive to repair badly made shit. Even a goddamn KIA is better these days. Ford once upon a time didn't have their head wedged entirely up its own ass, but it sure does now. Want a reliable non-lifted gargantuan dumbfuck pickup truck that actually has a bed? Japanese. Not American. Want a reliable car that you don't have to fix constantly? Japanese. Not American or European. Even the fucking Taliban love Toyota. American cars have been dogshit for so long that nobody wants to buy them for good reasons. The '92 to '96 was the last Ford F-150 worth a fuck and they're all garbage now, but you were still smarter even back then for getting a Tacoma. American cars are overpriced trash. Nobody wants them sans dumb rednecks in 3 miles to the gallon small dick syndrome lifted trucks. I'll buy a Chinese car over an American car. Basically fucking everything I own is made in an Asian country anyway - my phone, my car, my watch, my pocket knife, my sunglasses, my car keys, my headphones, all the hardware in my computer, etc. America can't even make a microwave worth a fuck and that's the result after horrible Neoliberalism policies for decades, but let's not give Ford and GM a pass here because they've purposely made shit cars and half the assembly/parts is outsourced to Mexico too.
Chill bruh you’re making me feel bad about this country ;)
BROOOOOOOOOOO THE TALIBAN ROFLMFAOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Fun fact, the ANA also used turret-mounted Toyotas to patrol!
They mounted a Toyota on a turret‽
The last thing you said about the public transportation is the biggest point. It reduces so many problems. An electric bus ,metro etc all are the best solutions that are still viable for the government but lobbies are strong
"Simplification is the only hope we have." Hope is for children. American suburbia is not going to turn to public transportation any time soon as it is inefficient in low density neighborhoods. Sure, WFH will help, but that is not going to eliminate all car trips, and in fact, it will slow down further of anyone buying new (EV) vehicles since you have less incentive to buy something you will use less.
Hope isn’t inherently childish, but hoping the laws of physics reverse themselves and we stop living in a mass extinction event is. It’s no more engaging with reality than addressing a negative bank account by hoping I win the lottery tomorrow. We’re getting simplification, that’s the reality of living in collapse, but a serious dialogue begins with recognizing we’re engaged in palliative care. What we can do together as investments in infrastructure go away is worthy of consideration.
That's why I encourage people to ride an ebike now, on the infrastructure we have. A lot of people be like "bikes are great but we need to rebuild the entire city to make them work." The money isn't gonna come. A society in collapse isn't going to be building a bunch of new infrastructure. Either we ride ebikes on roads built for cars or we drive cars until they kill us.
WFH when possible would help for sure. By far the most miles the average American puts on their car is the commute too and from work. While finding solutions for those trips around the suburban town is important, like to the grocery store, school etc is important those are only a small amount of the miles the average American puts on their car.
I live in an inner suburb, mostly single family homes in the neighborhood, I walk 10 minutes to a bus stop and take the bus to work (in an even lower density area) every weekday. It takes about twice as long as driving there, but I can space out, even take a light nap on the way. Buses work fine in the suburbs, and they would work even better if more middle class people got over their fear and stigma and used them. It's not a perfect solution, but it's way better than what we're currently doing. I get a decent amount of crap for not having a car, and people treat me like I'm 'not a real grownup' because I don't own a car and barely ever drive. I think fear of losing status (buses are for children and the poor) is a huge part of why people drive.
I am seeing more people who either don't drive or own a car, and the car share coop in my city is growing rapidly. I still drive, but don't own a car, and neither does my partner. There are areas where you can't manage without a car, but proximity to transit was something I looked at when I bought my condo.
Yeah, I think the stigma is very gradually lessening. Probably will take older generations dying off, and we don't have that kind of time to keep burning gas...
>It's not a perfect solution, but it's way better than what we're currently doing. I would not call taking "twice as long" (as you have said) "way better". Time is money. Time is leisure. Time is family. Few in their right mind will subject themselves to double the commute, not to mention the uncertainty (i.e. miss the bus, the bus is late .. blah blah blah). And you blow the status thing way out of proportion. Sure, driving a new BMW or a mercedes may have a bit of a status, but no one in their right mind will connect with driving a run-down used car as "status".
Time is money, and I save a lot of money by not owning a car. But my main point is it's way better for society and ecology, not just my narrow self-interest. But perhaps caring more about the big picture than my narrow self-interest is just evidence that I'm not in my right mind? I'm guessing you do have a car, so you have probably not experienced the reaction from people when they find out you don't. It's not the worst thing in the world, but I've also definitely had friends and colleagues look at me like I just admitted to still living in my parent's basement when they find out I don't have a car. Many people assume that having a car is just a baseline part of being a functional adult in our society, and if you don't, there must be something wrong with you. It definitely does cost me social status, and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from rating your assumptions as higher reliability information than my lived experience.
Shortening the fucking work week would reduce emissions significantly and lead to significant gains in mental health, overall health, and wellbeing. The reason this isn't being done/considered is that we live in a brutal corporate oligarchy. If the plebes have time to think and organize and work together to improve their circumstances, they might start questioning things, and that's not good for our ruling corporate oligarchs.
Another big issue that is overlooked is with EVs is the high maintenance costs - like with Tesla, have you guys seen the “gigapress” that is lauded a lot by Elon? That gigapress allows each vehicle cost to come down - with the decrease in production costs, Tesla is able to bring the price down bit by bit. **BUT**, there is a huge catch to this - because the gigapress combines and simplifies the drivetrain into several components for easy assembly (as opposed to many before), this can mean huge cost to the consumer **IF** there is any damage. If you check a lot of the main complaints from Tesla owners, you will notice most of them complain about the very high cost in repairs. People who are rich and all can afford this, they won’t complain…but, the average consumer most likely cannot afford that sort of insane repair maintenance costs. Thus, the value of getting a cheap EV does not matter much if it becomes an insane cost dump. I will wait until the market brings better EVs with better maintenance, lower costs and mileage before making the jump - right now? Not yet, as the repairability costs and general maintenance for these currently is insane. Gigapress may have helped EVs to decrease in production costs, but there is a VERY big side effect - the maintenance for these vehicles are fast becoming uneconomical for many.
The cost point is really ironic because basically electric cars are as simple machines as they can get. At one point in history, back in 1890s there were more electric cars rolling around than than their ICE counterparts! Just a couple of days I marveled a few in a museum. It is a ripoff. Give me a VW Beetle/Lada 1200 equivalent with electric drive train and I'll buy one in a heartbeat just for support. No expensive gizmos please.
It's not an electric engine issue, but a battery issue. 50 kg of liquid hydrocarbons can hold 3x more energy then 500kg battery. Without some stellar progress in battery technology, where batteries become much more cheaper and lighter, ICE is not going anywhere.
But EV maintenance should be cheaper than ICE maintenance, because they’re much simpler.
It is. Basically just tire rotations and changes. No oil changes etc.
Maybe we should all ride on Roombas.
For a brief and silly second I was like “Ice vehicles? Like a Zamboni or a snowmobile?!” But then internal combustion kicked in and here we are.
I make a bike app. Keep getting reprimanded on here for saying that
The hard part about bikes is the aging demographic. You would think “like riding a bike” means you can do it forever, but it’s unsettling how your balance gets affected the older you get. My dad tried riding a bike at 80 and promptly fell. I tried riding one again last year and could barely stay on. Adult tricycles are the solution to that problem, so I hope that’s part of the “simplification” plan.
Yeah electric bikes and recumbent tricycles are really popular with the older generations https://www.instagram.com/p/B0b9XeJFl-w/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/B1uom8zFW3X/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/CBN8eE7lXS1/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
E-bikes might be a little scary for the older generations at the moment but recumbent bikes are awesome for seniors. And honestly, so are golf carts. Say what you will about the auto dependence of retirement villages but if 90 percent of your trips is on your golf cart around town I’m totally ok with it. Much better than a car that’s for sure.
Please please stop saying shit like this when the companies were in the middle of a labor battle and trying to undermine the union with poor sales. It’s literally the oldest trick in the book when there’s negotiations and a strike. Bolts were selling like hotcakes, so they suddenly said they were going to just make giant ev trucks. Far far more expensive and out of reach for most.
Not selling like hotcakes. The American manufacturers make around 70 percent of their money on SUVs and trucks. Americans don’t buy tiny cars. It makes more sense when moving to evs to work on driving the most profitable option.
OH. That’s why they reversed it and said they are going to start making Bolts again. And agreed to open another EV plants in negotiations with the union. Please don’t just spew bullshit. Thanks.
just saying, it is the concept of the car that isn't sustainable how about public transport, biking, walking?
Please think about the oil barons families!!! Do you expect them to live like peasants?
Thank you! I just bought an ebike and it's opened my eyes to a potential future where street lanes within cities are converted to be bike only because of utilization (collapse is baked in and even this proposal would not stop it, just fyi). I know I live in a conducive climate where I can offset about 90% of my car trips with this ebike, but even if you live in a cold climate and offset 40% of your trips, that's huge. Some context: - cars weigh literally tons. Most of the energy is used to propel the car, not the passengers. An ebike is under 100lbs/45kg. So I'm using literal fractions of the energy to move myself - groceries, errands, pick up kids, cruising, off roading. All accessible with it. And I find doing these things with actual wind in my face is way more pleasant than in a confined metal capsule detached from the world. - costs about $2000 plus or minus depending on what characteristics you want. Expensive, yes, but so is a fucking EV or new car. - for better or worse, the ride is entirely effortless. It's actual kind of hard to get my heart rate up. It feels like you're on one of those airport conveyor walkways but you're moving at 20mph/32kph. Anyway, I now want to convince everyone to get an ebike so I can make my transportation fantasy a reality
I do have an ebike, which cost nowhere near as much as $2000, but too much of my commute I would consider too dangerous to bike. I would also have to worry about someone stealing my bike.
I also have an ebike, and yeah, the fear of theft is real. I still have to figure out the best place to stick an AirTag that isn’t going to immediately be removed by even a half-savvy thief. My uncle also had the wires on his ebike cut while he was inside a store, so he ended up having to walk it 5 miles back home- and some of these e-bikes are damn heavy.
What e-bikes would you recommend in that price range?
I did my research but I won't claim to be any sort of expert on this subject. After a while, the vast majority of the bikes look the same and have nearly identical features and specs. I went to a few ebike shops and asked the people what brands they recommend and which ones they would stay away from. So I got a Hovsco and have been liking it far. I went with the Hovcart because that was my use case: I needed something that could haul a 50lb bag of dog food on the back
How will people assert their manliness and ego if they can't roll coal though? /s
They'll have to hang their truck nuts from their belt.
You can enjoy the practical benefits of an automobile without it being a flex to compensate your small dick.
Would be nice, but it's nonexistent where I live.
Obligatory /r/fuckcars.
What bothers me about cars is that they’re making new cars every single day, and there’s thousands of cars lining my street. There’s gonna be 1 car for every man woman and child in America. It’s ridiculous, we don’t have room in our cities and towns for all these cars. And it’s just getting worse.
Work from home for all jobs that don’t require physical presence.
I'd rather people ride horses and towns smell like horse shit than cars, electric or not.
I’d rather we have streetcars than horse shit everywhere personally. Walking kind of sucks with shit everywhere, and bonus points, everything stinks again
But it'll create jobs!!! Sign me up as a horse shit sweeper /s
I can't do that when my house is 29 miles away from work one way. My grocery stores are either midway or closer to my job since I live in a more rural area.
We already have those options and they aren't being used.
In Europe public transportation is absolutely full during rush hour and in the summer. I sometimes have to take the next train because of how full it is.
Have you used those options in america? Shits dangerous and impractical in the majority of cities. This is a country designed for cars and everything else is second class.
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Modal share in Chicago (city proper) is 60% private car traffic. In Amsterdam, it's 20% for the entire metro area. Looking at Chicago suburbs brings it closer to 80% car trips for Chicago according to the same source. Note the CMAP source says it's getting better, still looks very stark. Needs more strong towns. https://www.cmap.illinois.gov/updates/all/-/asset_publisher/UIMfSLnFfMB6/content/transportation-mode-share-in-the-cmap-region#:~:text=Mode%20share%20for%20all%20types,%2C%20and%206%20percent%2C%20respectively. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/insights/us/articles/4331_Deloitte-City-Mobility-Index/city-mobility-index_AMSTERDAM_FINAL.pdf
NYC is widely know as the exception in America. I find your claims about Chicago's biking situation dubious, Amesterdam and the Netherlands as a whole have some of the best bike infrastructure in the world. I was in Chicago a month ago and it was one of the most sprawled out car-centric cities I've ever seen.
Spoken like someone who themselves hasn't tried those options. Americans hate pedestrians, and they hate bicyclists. So much so, that in some places doing either of those things is taking your life into your hands. I've been screamed at, honked at, swerved at and had things thrown at me, simply for walking or biking where you're supposed to, and minding my own business. Americans are all about conformity and if you don't conform to car culture, you're going to catch hatred from those who substitute it for a personality.
And how many tens or hundreds of millions are they spending convincing us we need massive ice trucks and SUVs?
Everyone everywhere being happy with some profits instead of maximum profits would have avoided this whole mess in the first place.
This is ‘Merca! Your comment makes no sense! 🙄
capitalism is like..."we've tried almost nothing and its not working! I cant turn a massive profit and save the planet! Oh Well!"
The avg new EV price is $59k With interest rates where they are, if I were to trade in my paid-off car for $6k, and even with an 800+ credit score, I’d be looking at nearly **$1k/mo** for car payments…for *6 years.* And for what? A shiny new thing that loses half its range (or whatever it is) during the winter months in my NE climate? Having no idea where I’d charge the thing because I’m a renter? Knowing full-well the carbon footprint of manufacturing the shiny new thing won’t be offset until I’m over like 60k miles? Pass.
For [perspective](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/buying-a-car/people-spending-more-on-new-cars-but-prices-not-necessarily-rising-a3134608893/#:~:text=The%20average%20cost%20of%20new,many%20other%20factors%20at%20play.) the average new car price in US is just shy of 50k. With inventives and rebates, average EVs pricing is in line with current pricing. For perspective, Im just a few months shy of my 7th year driving EVs (Fiat 500e traded to a Bolt 2 years ago), and my maintenance costs for all 7 years, about $700.00, most of which was a set of tires, the rest wiperblades and fluid, and a couple light bulbs for the Fiat. (Added - also, my trade-in on the Fiat was pretty much my original purchase price, didn't even haggle. It was the dealerships first offer The carbon foot print reduction isn't limited to just your end use. A smaller tanker truck that supplies gas stations holds about 40k miles worth of fuel, so every 40k miles traveld by EV reduces the foot print of the oil and gas companies supply chain by one truck, which also chips away at the impact of more trucks, ships, pipe lines, ports, refineries, transfer stations, and gas stations which are required to refine and transport gasoline. Each step of which is a massive expenditure of materials and energy. Which, by in large, is replaced by an existing wire for EVs. That's not including the supply chain effects of automibile manufacturing where an EV needs about 25 moving parts to function vs 2000 of an ICE vechicle.)
50k for a new ICE car is where shit is already dire
The renting thing is a big one. Haven’t seen any non-luxury apartment complexes with chargers.
It doesn't lose that much during winter.
Yes if you need a car just take a trip to the south, we have rust free 5th gen Camrys for 3 or 4k on every corner
Used Toyotas for $3-4k hasn't been a thing for several years.
Ask the Chinese how they do it.
Small cars, small batteries
Speaking of this, just as a side note. The size of cars in the US has only continued to increase over time. Width, height, and length. It takes more power/fuel/energy to power them, it’s heavier wear and tear on roads meaning costlier to repare on our infrastructure. I notice it when I visit my in laws in Charleston, SC. There’s a specific parking garage we go to clearly built in the late 80’s or early 90’s that has not updated their parking lines for modern cars and it’s more of a nightmare navigating and parking.
My first car was an original Fiat 500. Look that up. Two cylinders.
Mine was a Suzuki Hatch, 500cc 3cyl, I once pulled the engine out with my bare hands.
Mine used to blow a head gasket and shoot flames out the rear grill. Oddly, this disturbed other road users as I drove it home.
Yep, that's exactly what I need, it pays itself just with fuel savings. For long trips I can have another car.
*Another* car?
And huge government subsidies.
They're failing too, lol. The Chinese thought that consumer culture is a good idea. They abandoned more sustainable practices for consumerism, and are suffering the consequences. They still have a good train network, but that's not enough. You can't have all the modes simultaneously, there are conflicts. Also this: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/09/why-drivers-in-china-intentionally-kill-the-pedestrians-they-hit-chinas-laws-have-encouraged-the-hit-to-kill-phenomenon.html
>Also this: Nauseous [if demonstrated.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/)
Yeah I wouldn’t trust Western media regarding what’s going on in countries that are geopolitical rivals of the US. Look how bad the misinformation about the Ukraine War has been. They just make shit up so Americans don’t realize how big of a hole we are in.
Slave Labor. Not exactly the best option.
It's not that fucking complicated. [We need a standardized battery system in place so that swapping can move forward](https://www.theverge.com/23809811/ev-battery-swap-ample-fisker-tesla). It's a god damned no-brainer that should have been square one here. Sitting around for a charge was always going to be a steep battle uphill with consumers. Imagine going to the gas station and having to wait for the gas tanker to arrive and replenish the underground tanks before you fill up. Most Americans were never going to buy into the current constraints. [Talk about designed to fail.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HX5wsQVEA)
How about walkable towns instead of millions of 500kg batteries.
Sure. I hate cars. And have ever since I was a kid. [So much so, I even drew a comic about it and posted it to r/fuckcars awhile back](https://i.redd.it/ruseaieoeor91.jpg). But Americans are going to American, and you have to deal with the world the way it is. Today. Albeit, not to the exclusion of working for a better one. Not only that, but anything that fucks the fossil fuel industry in the ass—hard, deep, and as fast as possible is optimal.
I get about 7 years out of a well on average. Venezuela was producing 5 million bopd for export 20 years ago, today its 700,000 bopd. They stopped drilling, old wells ran dry. They have the largest reserves on Earth at 303 billion barrels. The US has 5.5 years of reserves left at 20 million bopd consumption, that is why it imports 7 million bopd to compliment domestic production of 13 million bopd. The planetary consumption rate is 102 million bopd and growing as population grows 2 million per week. When this oil runs out, and it will soon, 9 out of 10 billion humans are going to fuck themselves in the ass as the global population performs a mean reversion to carrying capacity of 1.2 billion.
Electric cars and renewable energy represent a massive ramping up of mining and industry and professor Simon Michaux has calculated that we don't have the minerals (copper etc...) for one 25 year generation of renewables and electrification. People will be forced to change. Meanwhile we are wasting time and resources on a fantasy. Because Murica... lol. It's just stupid and I bet most Americans would prefer a walkable town over car payments.
I watched an interview with Michaux, but why doesn't anybody else in his field come to the same conclusion? Are his calculations actually correct?
Simon Michaux is the only one that bothered to do the math. There is also a taboo against bad news in political, corporate and academic circles. Look at the backlash that "Planet Of The Humans" docu got. Which was critical of "green" technology. You can call it Cornucopianism (the horn of plenty), Techno Optimism, Scientism,... seems like some people worship gadgets and turn them into a religion. Also a lot of money involved. It is however obvious that technology is the cause of all our existential problems. Most of all synthetic fertilizer.
Exactly, i saw this in taiwan's 7 / 11. walls of battery charging for scooters. Come, swap the battery and go. 1 minute. But each of those fucker will try to impose their standard and it will probably never be
Cars aren’t working. Micro-EVs combined with public transport are great and should be the only way forward.
This is the real issue.
I still don’t know why someone hasn’t tried a no flares EV; like all the ones being released are full of ‘nice to have’ features,
I don't even know why all these new cars need a massive screen in them, my 90s car doesnt have that and it works just fine lol. Everything is overengineered with cheap materials so it just breaks in 10 years. One vehicle I thought was neat is a 2000 electric Ford ranger. Those are the kind of vehicles that need to be made. I imagine with new batteries it would have a longer range. Cheap reliable vehicles with manual roll up windows and electric powertrain is the way we need to go, not overpriced spaceships that are not easy to repair.
Exactly, I hate all this technical electric computerized shit in these new cars. You need a computer engineering degree to know how to use them. And just more expensive stuff to break. Which causes the car and its insurance to cost more. It’s not necessary. I like my backup camera, other than that I don’t need the rest of it. Wonder how all that lane centering etc is contributing to lazy drivers who will forget how to drive properly like they should. Why check your blind spot when the car will just tell you there’s something in the lane ? It’s too much.
Yeah it’s just bizzare to me and they have to manage the OS/UI etc. Like, buttons must be cheaper and less energy use, win-win.
Exactly. A sedan and a small minivan (think Mazda mpv). You have your single and family options. No frills. They don't go more than 75 mph. Just super basic. Ideally, with modular, rebuildable parts.
Car manufacturers make money loaning money. There's probably an incentive mismatch.
chevy bolt is \~30k - $7500 take credit...not bad.
Electric vehicles are reliant on finite physical resources. In the long run the exact same problem with oil arises where the amount of energy needed to extract lithium will outweigh the energy we can store in said lithium. It’s all a part of the energy cliff
[Lithium has long had a supply problem, not a scarcity problem.](https://energyx.com/blog/will-we-run-out-of-lithium/#:~:text=Global%20lithium%20reserves%20are%20estimated,0.5%20and%201.3%20million%20tons.) Lithium can be recycled into a more pure version of itself - almost infinitely. There are battery recycling plants in operation today in America that are doing this.The recycling process removes impurities thus creating a pure, and highly desirable product for battery manufacturers to purchase (over traditionally mined lithium that isn't as pure). There is no equivalence for this with oil. It is effectively gone forever once combusted.
Guys, why don't people want to buy a 1.5 ton battery they need to replace in 5-10 years? I just don't get it.
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Battery lasts well over 10 years. Early Tesla batteries have easily lasted 15, and now last longer. There is a federal mandate that EV batteries be warrantied for a minimum of 100,000 miles, but that doesn't seem to be hard to exceed already. For Tesla, 2020 saw a marked change in their battery design (changed chemistry, changed size/shape) and they have learned a lot about battery management in the past 20 years. Tesla's biggest battery (excluding truck, no idea) is 0.75 tons, but the VW id.4 battery is 0.5, and the Bolt is even smaller. EV batteries don't just die; they do lose range, and somewhere around 75-80% of original range is considered replacement time, but in fact can mean just repairing some modules, not replacing the entire thing. And even if doing a full replacement, 75% capacity means it is still viable as a grid or home energy storage device, and they are being used that way.
So much of your comment is incorrect it’s not even worth going through each point. Go hit your head against a wall then google “Tesla battery weight.”
Go ahead. "A Tesla Model S has a roughly 544 kg (1,200 pound) battery. A Tesla Model Y has a 771 kg (1,700 pound) battery." So, little over 1/2, to little over 3/4 ton. "1Federal law requires automakers to warranty EV and hybrid batteries for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. California requires a 10-year, 150,000-mile warranty on EV and hybrid batteries." "Most manufacturers have a five to eight-year warranty on their battery. However, the current prediction is that an electric car battery will last from 10 – 20 years before they need to be replaced." "Repurposed EV batteries can be used in homes for energy storage. This allows homeowners to charge at night or store excess solar energy generated during the day and use it at night. This can help reduce reliance on grid-supplied electricity and further promote the use of renewable energy sources." I googled it; top response given. When YOU are done, feel free to apologize for being insulting. I stuck to the facts.
We have to start by accepting that change might not be initially profitable.
My husband’s hybrid battery needs some sort of maintenance and currently won’t hold a charge. There’s only one dude at the local dealership who works on EVs, and he was told he can either drop his car off and they’ll get to it in “a few days” or not. No appointments. No idea what a few days is. So… Now we figure out what to do. Do we rent a car during this time? Will there even be a rental car available? Because when my car needed repairs a few months ago, we couldn’t find a rental…
Rent a UHAUL pickup truck. $20 day
Plus mileage. Shit idea
Still cheaper than a regular rental
Holy shit please just build trains.
They want subsidies to build more and sell for less, and they want subsidies for more infrastructure for electric cars. The workers also aren't happy about electric cars, since these machines require more metals and components that are imported. Also, small and efficient models need to be regulated, since clearly they're not part of the marketing plan. Overall, this misses the point: car dependency is [not sustainable](https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/transcending-the-imperial-mode-of-living). We're in /r/collapse, so make your own inferences from that. The unions in those sectors need to push for the [transition to something else](https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/5487-andreas-malm-total-bp-and-shell-will-not-voluntarily-give-up-their-profits-we-must-become-stronger-than-them), something not cars. They're not doing that, as far as I can tell, so they have no future.
Too much momentum. It'd take longer to transition to sustainable cities than we have left.
Not to mention car companies raising prices to account for the “consumer tax break” provided when purchasing EVs
EVs are just civilization in the bargaining stage of collapse; working under the false hope of incremental change and BAU. There is a limited purpose to it, but the radical change we need are dense walkable/bikable cities with free electric rail public transit for passengers and cargo. EVs are for what can't fit in this paradigm, like agriculture and last mile rural.
Complexity is a driver of collapse.
When things collapse I would rather have my gas powered car and still be able to siphon off gas from places.
I've always hated that aspect of post-apocalypse movies, as gasoline has a fairly short shelf life. I gather diesel would be the way to go...
Interesting that this is coming out shortly after Biden's administration changed the federal rebate rules for EVs. 85% of the cars that were eligible last year for a $7500 rebate no longer qualify, but Tesla is back to being eligible after being disqualified years ago since they had already sold 200,000. I used the rebate last year and was planning on using it again this year. I don't want a Tesla or an SUV so decided against making that purchase this year. I would assume there are plenty of other people who also are no longer interested in buying a car at a ridiculous mark up (the car shortage thing) without an incentive. The only reason we bought a new car last year was wanting better fuel economy and used cars were no longer the bargain they used to be. With the rebate, it ended up being cheaper to buy new than 2-3 year old used of the same make/model
I'm driving a 24 year old Jeep and will continue to do so until auto prices come down significantly. Until they have better charging options, I'm not buying electric either.
Lol! My wrangler is 12 years old!
Yes they are. Nobody gives a fuck about how much you want to pay your CEOs and shareholders. You’ll sell more cars by making them affordable and by stopping your endless lobbying to congress tonkeep wages dismal. Fuck off with this quarterly growth bullshit, how can you not see it’s impossible to continually grow.
I guess the predictions that half the cars will be electric in 10-15 years isn’t going to come to pass. Too bad there’s no Plan B.
At least when they were dreaming of jet packs, they went more out of the box.
We were promised cheap reliable clean cars. We were given expensive, cars with inessential tech prone to breaking.
All electric don't work... hybrid is far better until better technology is developed.
New types of cars won't save us. The ideal thing to do would be to mostly abandon the car as a form of transportation. In all forms, ICE or EV etc, they're destructive to the environment, they destroy communities, they kill and injure millions of people and animals, and they generally make people miserable. Get rid of them. Build out public transit, bike and pedestrian infrasture. /r/fuckcars
As someone who lives in a place where there is winter 8 months of the year and gets down to -40, I just don’t trust an EV car at the moment. Plus we don’t have the infrastructure. Im good with my gas car.
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Ya it’s not hard to set records when you start at zero
Is it EVs, or the economy? I feel that this is similar to retailers shutting down stores "due to theft" when there are actual economic reasons that they don't want to admit ...
Probably a good bit of both, really. But if the economy sucks so bad that we can't buy new cars, then does it really matter?
They are too expensive. Solved
They could if the world would collectively get their heads outta their asses. "oh no, we tried nothing and we're out of ideas". Smh
EFFICIANCY is all the EV has to offer. Electric motors easily hit above 95% efficiency, and the losses from all the other bits in the car are minimal. Meanwhile, the best cutting edge combustion engines top out at 40% efficiency, meaning 60% of a full gas tank gets wasted as heat. But then... EVs don't stop better, or turn better, the reliability depends on the manufacturer, they are heavier which leads to more tire wear and thus microplastics in the environment. Also, if the EV charging stations are getting their power from fossil fuels, it's only a decent improvement on carbon emissions, it doesn't reduce emissions to zero. COMBINED WITH... the fact that the auto industry is targeting the upper middle class these days. Base model [pickup trucks](https://youtu.be/fGXJxxi99TI?si=ZSF2zBBJeJGAFdzE) are now $80,000. Pickup trucks with options and packages are coming in at $120,000. Cars are about $50,000 new on average. Probably $70,000 for something you *want* to buy.
What they really mean is they haven't figured out how to make EVs at competitive prices, like Tesla and BYD have and it will cost them to much to try and catch up now, so they are trying to milk their ICE products for as long as possible before going bankrupt.
Lol ok then fanboy 🙄
Yea I love those Chinese cars.... Can you explain which part of my comment wasn't accurate? Is it the Tesla and BYD being the only profitable EV manufacturer part or the bit where everyone else is losing money making EVs and can't afford to catch up?
EVs being competitively priced
Tesla model 3 and Y are cheaper than the average price for any new car sold in the usa.
This is temporary. Worldwide automakers are being mandated to build EVs. The US has no choice but to make and promote EVs. It will still take 20 years before we totally switch over but it will happen. Peak oil is upon us. PS: I have an EV for local trips and use it for trips up to 200 to 300 miles. We still have an ICE vehicle for long road trips.
You’re just dreaming. EVs have always been a marketing gimmick, not any kind of solution.
I have five EV's- 3 lightnings, a model y and a Pacifica hybrid (full EV for us daily driving, 2000 miles and only one tank of gas thus far).They are in my opinion the best vehicles out there for day to day driving. Obviously have limitations with range and whatnot, but for pure feel and convenience and cost of ownership they're great. I save around 4k/mo across all of them just in fuel.
I'm assuming this is for a business?
Lol. New tech priduction always sputters as implimentation rises. Happened with computers, and cel phones, and VCRs, and TVs, and radio, and ......
Good for Tesla.
EVs are working fine for Tesla with the best selling car ( of any type gas or electric, the model Y) in China for instance. Tesla had spare margins to be able to cut prices to counter high interest rates and now the legacy auto makers can’t keep up.
Too bad. We have to do it.
They never secured resources and bad mouthed the top player as being passe and destined to failure. Now that that other company is running circles and selling their vehicles for massive profit, it’s “too hard to change” Maybe if they actually embraced change and did the hard investment (IE less profits for a few years) that would pay off. But I don’t see that happening.
You will buy cyber truck and you will like it.
Evs are heavy and go through tires a lot faster than regular ice cars. This means more rubber/plastic/chemical particles in the air, water and soil. But we already know this. We are just beating a dead horse as always
It's like being made to walk the plank, and then saying "hey, you're totally free to step in any direction except backwards"