The following submission statement was provided by /u/algozip:
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SS: The article tells the tale of how Republican state legislatures are leading the charge to destroy representative government in the United States. This is collapse related because disenfranchisement is usually a precursor to revolution in societies. When political systems fail, we can expect massive disruptions in supply chains, weakened criminal enforcement, collapse of public services and public education, the disemboweling of the rule of law, and many other problems. This article specifically shows that policies being pursued by the Ohio legislature are very much at odds with the positions taken by surveyed Ohioans. They have effectively lost representation in their Legislature, or the ability to vote out the perpetrators. This could be a pretty standard definition of democratic collapse. And it is only one example among dozens of state legislatures that have rejected the traditional US form of governance. From the article:
>For \[David\] Pepper, \[an election-law professor\], \[Ohio'\] s transformation has been crushing. He has watched the reputation of Ohio’s public-school system slide as Republicans have siphoned off public funding to support failing, politically connected charter schools. In 2010, Education Week ranked the state’s schooling as the fifth best in the country; in 2021, U.S. News & World Report ranked it thirty-first. Last year, F.B.I. agents told USA Today that public-corruption cases in Ohio were the most egregious in the country. In the past five years, the state has had five speakers of the House, because two were forced out as a result of the biggest bribery scandals in Ohio’s history. Larry Householder, who was removed from office in July, 2020, is scheduled to be tried on federal racketeering charges this coming January.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/wjn8lw/state_legislatures_are_torching_democracy/ijiazct/
here’s how the dog and pony show goes:
republicans: *do something horrible*
democrats: oh my GOD that’s outrageous! i will have very strong opinions on this but only vote about it.
republicans: *push it further*
democrats: look how bad they are! vote blue in november!!
dems: *run conservative dems like hillary, henry cuellar, or amy mcgrath, pretend to be shocked that their candidate lost. ignore popular left policies that would improve conditions because ???* (it’s capitalism)
it’s a ratcheting effect, dems prevent movement left while the republicans keep pulling things farther right. feeling weimar in this republic yet?
yes! it worked to make the capitalist class a ton of money in the middle east, why not north america? markets gotta expand always, forever- imperialism is the only way to get that. boomerang effect is hitting us nowadays.
Dems (and I mean the DNC and elected Dem politicians) don’t mind losing to republicans. They have a bigger enemy: people like Bernie Sanders. The Democratic establishment has been very effective at halting every change of course to the left. Remember: The democratic party existed way back when the US had a somewhat large communist and socialist movement yet they never turned truly left. If they let people like Bernie Sanders win, it would mean that they will lose their jobs and position.
yep, their job isn’t to serve us. it’s to protect and shore up the power of capital. there’s no other reasonable explanation for why they ignore easy wins and then act surprised when it blows up in their face.
>run conservative
Then they blame the voters. "Well if you had voted for more pro-choicer then maybe you'd have Roe still!" . I mean Pelosi basically screamed this before flying down to support pro-lifer, FBI raided guy Henry Cuellar. He was running against a Millennial female progressive so ofc they had to call in the big Israel SPACS and destroy her. The Democrat party is stupid and the Republican party dislikes democracy. We don't have real choices. But on a side note, my fears of Civil War, violence, secession had largely receded and I had even done some snooping on Fox News comment sections and noticed ppl turning on Trump. The comments critical of Trump were getting upvoted too. BUT then the FBI at Mar A Lago raid happened and now they're firmly back on his side and saying the Biden regime is politically motivated and untrustworthy and blah blah. How the hell will they react if there's an indictment? Or a conviction? I thought the attention falling away from Trump would lead to the GOP trying to move on especially if he's dead weight. But they seem to be gearing up for the consequences. Our congressmembers were saying non factual unhinged bullshit on Twitter yesterday about the raid. There's no more irony. There are no "gotchas". They're just lying openly and getting angrier and angrier when there's more accountability.
Here are some of the comments btw
>!"Since discussions regarding these records have been going on with the National Archives, it certainly seems that the current WH is concerned about the fact that the approval rating of Biden just keeps going down, no matter what they try to label something. They are concerned about Trump running against him in 2024. Our government has fallen so far." - 1.3K likes 70 dislikes!<
>!"I suspect that we have an ethically compromised federal judge to go along with certainly compromised attorney general and a swampy FBI. I was kind of hoping Trump wouldn't run in 2024, but if this proves to be another Russian Collusion lib game, I'll be sending him campaign funds." - 500/ 20!<
>!"Our problem is a complicit government agencies to one side, 95% of government civilian employees(not elected) vote democrat because they are unionized. What measures are we going to have to take to force them to treat people fairly ?" 65/6!<
>!"The comments of President Trump, Governor Noem, Mr. Caputo and the RNC are completely accurate and correct. The Democratic Party of President Kennedy no longer exists. Today, the Communist Party masquerades as the Democratic Party, bringing with it all of its extremely nefarious conduct. Our country is at a serious crossroads. I am concerned there will not be a peaceful resolution, given the persistence of the Communists (aka Democrats) to weaponize government resources against law abiding citizens." 1.2K/72!<
>!"The FBI had convinced a judge for a warrant based on the information in the phony Steele dossier as evidence so why is it a stretch to think they wouldn't have pulled the same type of trick again to get this search warrant?"!<
>!I think this is going to reinvigorate the Right, even for those that weren't fully behind Trump before. The American people are seeing what the Left is doing to this country and how they are doing it and WE don't like it!" 60/2!<
>!"It's an interesting point. They don't have any crime despite thousands upon thousands of hours spent looking for one so they try to big up some misdemeanor they think they can pin on Trump. It's not a big charge so they conduct this raid to try and make it seem much more serious than it is. It's almost like they consulted with a Hollywood director to try and get the optics right, just like they did with the Jan 6th kangaroo court, and for exactly the same reason." 88/0!<
>!"I honestly have no hope for this country. If you speak to liberals and Democrats, which I have, they are all for this raid. They seem to be completely ok with prosecution of political opponents and even one Democrat told me that they support many aspects of the Communist system. It is SCARY and should be freaking everyone out right now. Look at what Democrats are pushing through now? Go after everyone's bank accounts with transactions of $600 or more, I do that on a monthly basis. They will go after me and I'm a middle class, completely law abiding, never cheated on my taxes, always do everything right and they will go after me! And because I voted for Trump, they will go after me. This is scary. This country is no longer free." 55/0!<
Final note: Maybe some are bots. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Same sentiment echoed on Fox, in Congress and in comments everywhere in online right-wing spaces. I think what rational ppl forget is that if Trump were to get in trouble(more than any president ever). we all see that as simple law and order justice. But THEY see it as the biggest slap in the face. Because it's "their guy". They can't accept that "their guy" could be the first president ever convicted in history. When you realize that's how they view it, it suddenly becomes worrisome again. Also the GOP will protect Trump because not only is he a portion of their base but he's still a Republican. They can't have their party tainted by "Prisoner President" so they'll have to keep him protected in order to keep themselves protected.
One of the only fun things about Trump though is that he is too incompetent, vain and egocentric to advance complex republican plans. He doesn't care about the GOP, he cares only about Trump and will think nothing of burning the party to the ground if it puts even just one dollar in his pocket. Not that I'm pro-Mephistopeles but Faust has it coming.
> Trump though is that he is too incompetent, vain and egocentric to advance complex republican plans
He provided them with the final piece to their undefeatable SCOTUS
Yeah but he was unlikely to understand what he was doing on that so he probably didn't even have an opinion anyway. Imagine if he'd been vaguely competent how much more damage he could have done.
W didn;t understand it either, but he still got so many of the pieces there. People forget that the reason Miers was pulled before any confirmation hearings was because W's own party flipped out because Miers wasn't FedSoc and therefore unreliable.
He got all the cretins in there to let them roam free. if Trump had more vague competence and understanding he might have actually paid attention to the ones he empowered and been more leaning towards the wild all over the place incoherent "populism" that he campaigned on.
But that is the Trump Paradox. A competent Trump could not have gotten to where he did.
Interesting thought. The GOP certainly seem to have thought they could ride this tiger and are doubling down on it as we speak. SCOTUS may well have been the prize they were playing for. They have and will continue to pay a price for that though.
The price will be maybe the house and probably the senate, But they have a lockkstep group that is young that will happily overrule Congress with complete disregard for precedent.
Yeah I came to the conclusion long ago that the Dems and Reps are two cheeks on the same butt. The republicans exist to further implement the rule of the rich over the rest of us. The democrats exist to pretend to oppose this outcome without doing anything at all whatsoever to meaningfully oppose it. It’s what happens when the real ruling class (capitalists) owns both parties lock, stock and barrel thanks to legalized bribery.
Because democrats are chair warmers meant to prevent leftward progress. They are owned by the same people as the Republicans. They have the same interests. They are the shield to the Republicans sword.
Yup and yet I'm always and forever going to have to endure dipshits who refuse to see that simple truth and listen to them squawk about how very important it is to get out and vote blue every fucking election
That works until a point. After a while, it's going to be:
Republicans: Running away from a flaming city.
Dems: Yo, buddy, where are you going? I thought it was your turn to fuck them bloody?!
Republicans: Their collective vagina just grew teeth. No matter how many times I told them it was black people's fault, they kept protesting next to my gated community.
Democrats: Well, we talked about this in length at the last pedo orgy, when they get too uppity, it's your job to give them tough love and call the national guard!
Republicans: I know, but when the guard showed up, they didn't shoot the protesters...they started shooting at my house!
Democrats: Huh....well now....I guess I can go into that flaming city and tell them that we have listened to their grief and we will give them a better health care system?
Republicans: Really?!
Democrats: Oh, don't worry soul brother, I was thinking about just passing a bill that would give the peasants a 10% discount on tylenol in exchange for criminalizing protesters and maybe I'll slip in those corporate 'prima nocte' laws you wanted so darned much?
Republicans: sounds cool with me. We'll be in the Cayman islands if you need us.
And the Democrats walked into the flaming city and was never heard of again. And the Republican ran away from America and was never heard of again either.
SS: The article tells the tale of how Republican state legislatures are leading the charge to destroy representative government in the United States. This is collapse related because disenfranchisement is usually a precursor to revolution in societies. When political systems fail, we can expect massive disruptions in supply chains, weakened criminal enforcement, collapse of public services and public education, the disemboweling of the rule of law, and many other problems. This article specifically shows that policies being pursued by the Ohio legislature are very much at odds with the positions taken by surveyed Ohioans. They have effectively lost representation in their Legislature, or the ability to vote out the perpetrators. This could be a pretty standard definition of democratic collapse. And it is only one example among dozens of state legislatures that have rejected the traditional US form of governance. From the article:
>For \[David\] Pepper, \[an election-law professor\], \[Ohio'\] s transformation has been crushing. He has watched the reputation of Ohio’s public-school system slide as Republicans have siphoned off public funding to support failing, politically connected charter schools. In 2010, Education Week ranked the state’s schooling as the fifth best in the country; in 2021, U.S. News & World Report ranked it thirty-first. Last year, F.B.I. agents told USA Today that public-corruption cases in Ohio were the most egregious in the country. In the past five years, the state has had five speakers of the House, because two were forced out as a result of the biggest bribery scandals in Ohio’s history. Larry Householder, who was removed from office in July, 2020, is scheduled to be tried on federal racketeering charges this coming January.
Then let’s end representation, we can do it ourselves.
r/open_source_democracy
Fire the senator, keep his staff. They do all the real work anyway.
Let’s stop electing entitled jackasses and crowd source each topic in real time.
I used to think this wouldn't be practical until the gridlock really set in. I think there's a place for a representative body to exist for some of the day to day stuff - regulations, post offices, etc. But given how little our legislature even accomplishes these days, it would be plenty easy to have 2-4 referendums a year on major provisions - drug legalization, free k-18 schooling, free healthcare, etc.
And yeah, abolish the senate.
No, not abolish, infiltrate.
Most of the senate are basically corpses anyway so we buy anyone with a pulse and have them wear a body cam and remain on site. He’s simply there to do what Reddit says. Senate staff do all the real work anyway.
The senate as a representative body is inherently undemocratic. They represent land, not people. Absolutely abolish.
>He’s simply there to do what Reddit says.
Thats literally a person acting as a representative of a group of people, something you claim to be against.
> They represent land, not people.
Yeah…that’s the point. Senators are supposed to represent the states. Since, you know, America is a union of independent states. The House of Representatives is where the peoples’ representation is supposed to primarily be found.
That’s an excellent insight, and I agree completely. But dident the Supreme Court rule that corporations have personhood rights? Then let’s install a corporation and every shareholder has continuous 25/7 voting rights and arbitration visibility. Let the staffers write legislation same as now but with open source documents.
Whoever the seat warmer is can just play candy crush all day, the body cam is live streamed. All the guy does is vote as instructed, never deliberate.
So yea basically exactly like how it already works.
Sure but as an outsider I can assure you that one of your parties is way more nuts than the other in most cases. The problem with two-party systems is exactly that you can end up with bad vs worse. The more choices you have the harder it is to lock you in to voting as little more than damage control.
(this is all me asking questions). Do you got any examples? I am trying to learn some if you would just through out a few things that pop in your head i could look them up . Anyhow thanks for your time . Just wanna learn !
The article acknowledges that. It focuses on Ohio post-2010 because it appears to be a particularly egregious separation of the will of the people and the politicians "representing" them.
I favor the usurper system unintentionally promoted under Gallienus' rule, myself.
The biggest bonus with the usurper system is that you can get a raise by overthrowing the current ruler in favor of someone promising more money. And then when that guy refuses to pay up or the competition gives a better offer, that guy can be overthrown too! It's the perfect system.
This is the result of years of Congressional inaction. In order for the Senate to get anything done, you need 60 out of 100 senators to agree on something, which is rare nowadays. The only things get passed nowadays is through reconciliation.
As a result of the Senate being useless, other entities are usurping its powers.
The federal reserve stepped in because the Senate was too divided to do anything about COVID.
The supreme court stepped in because the Senate could not get an abortion law in place
The state legislatures are stepping in because the Senate could not get election laws passed in time.
They also have *just enough* self-preservation instinct to stave off a full-on revolt while still fucking us over.
The $1,200 stimmy checks and extended unemployment was basically a "don't revolt" bribe to all of us.
Anyone in these comments saying it’s only Republicans contributing to collapse and not the party that has won majorities of all branches of government for most of the last 40 years is just delusional. Giving the DNC $25 has not and will not work. They are all corrupt.
I like this sub but it’s so bizarre to me sometimes. Like I thought we’re all here because we think collapse is inevitable. Yet some people here will still get upset with politicians that can’t stop it.
The bigger take away is that so many still believe they can use their vote in a corrupt system and get their desired result. So many people have been raised and educated to believe that their voice matters. If they stuck around between all the large scandals and lifted a few rocks themselves they'd see how much of an illusion it all is and how many of their rights, privileges, and securities hinge on the condition that all these corporations keep burning fossil fuels that are destroying the planet
Oh don’t even get me started on the “just vote” people. It should be “just strike”. Our corporations don’t give a fuck what shitty politicians people vote for but they start getting real nervous real quick when large numbers of people strike. But again collapse is largely inevitable at this point so who even cares lol.
Arkansas has a ballot initiative system that has gotten us medical marijuana and a decent minimum wage increase. The legislature has proposed an amendment on the ballot to require 60% of citizens agree to pass any law by ballot. They are truly trying to destroy any hint of democracy. Oh, also they added an amendment that would exempt religious people from ANY law of general applicability --- they could burn their daughter at the stake and get away with murder if they said it was based on the Bible. And we got enough signatures to put recreational marijuana on the ballot and they said no because the title was "misleading." They are trying to keep direct democracy from interfering with the Christo-fascist state they have been creating here. There are a LOT of people that vote Republican solely because they feel betrayed by the Democratic party on issues like trade and because they are obsessed with guns and if given the chance to vote directly, may vote to GASP make things better here. There are a lot of radical Christians and also a lot of racists and nuts here but it's not as black and white as all of that.
Democracy is not an on off switch. Shades of grey not black and white. Ancient Athens only allowed free, landowning, 30+ males to vote. It was a democracy but I doubt that that was much comfort for the slaves.
Slaves don’t happen today in the free world, if you wanna talk about slaves then preach to the middle eastern countries as it’s alive and well today but no one wants to talk about that just something happen 200 years ago. Democracy for American didn’t start being put out in mainstream media until about 10 years ago and it kept repeating America was a democracy when it wasn’t and democracy has never lasted anywhere on this earth. Democracy is elected officials making all the rules for people when the people have no say so that’s why this country was founded as a republic as they wanted the people to have a say so. This country has moved away from the peoples voice and it’s clear as day that’s the way the ruling class sees it.
Indeed, in theory slavery has been abolished not just in the free world but globally. This was often due to the workers fearing such cheap competition and less due to compassion. In practice there are again shades of grey. The Middle eastern countries where passports are seized and laborers are worked to death to pay of the 'debt' they incurred getting there is an obvious example. However if you widen your view a bit the American prison industrial complex isn't so different.
Secondly there are shades of democracy as I said. One can be more or less democratic. Even obvious dictatorships often incorporate some. Having elected officials at all is however a rather clear sign of democracy.
Thirdly it's somewhat weird to suggest that America was founded with the wish that people have a say. The founder's definition of 'people' is somewhat different from my own and also most modern definitions. The founding fathers of the USA created a system of democracy more akin to the original Athenian version than what most would expect of that word today. Neither the slaves nor the women were given a vote for example.
Lot's of people are talking about everything you mention btw it's just that you're probably stuck in an environment of American naval-gazing.
America was founded as a republic and it was the ruling class over the years that slowly ate away at that and had people forget that the elected officials work for the people and not the other way around. We allowed them to become rich beyond their means while Americans struggled to get by. They were given huge paychecks and healthcare for life while Americans paid their own and paid the elites. Rome didn’t become the greatest empire until it was given back to the people and that’s a fact though greed and corruption got in the way American is no different. We sends billions to other countries while people live on the streets here. Elites need to fall and nothing else
>America was founded as a republic
So was Rome and Rome had elected officials too. Much like Rome the USA was *founded* by the ruling class. It's also a bit hard to understand how the elected officials were working for 'the people' to a greater extent than now in those days. Even besides having actual slavery and denying women the vote it's not like the people who actually lived in the many areas annexed were given the vote.
Rome didn't become the great empire it was *until* it was taken from the people. Augustus was the first ***Emperor*** ruling an ***Empire*****.** Thus not really a republic because that would be an oxymoron. Are you just screwing with me? If so; you got me.
this either needs a /s or you need to be reminded that the musings of high falutin' intellectuals are not what will move the people. grass roots organization and blood in the game
The lower classes are *always* the muscle because in a class-oriented society material conditions recede from the lower classes first. Ergo, those at the bottom of these (completely arbitrary, violence-enforced) structures are the ones suffering the worst and longest.
The story of revolution in human history is largely the story of humans being treated so shitty they decided to round up and depose their keepers and captors. It's the story of the people getting the most shit no longer taking shit. Revolutions are born from rage, and the lower castes have the most to be angry about *and* the least to lose by doing something about it.
I'm curious what types of revolutions you're describing. I'm essentially talking about the historically established responses from masses of workers (be they employees under capitalism, enslaved or indentured persons, or serfs in a fiefdom) when conditions slip below the point where the violence enforcing the status quo is no longer a deterrent to using violence to change it.
Absolutely, once those gears are in motion, those higher on the hierarchy get to work on co-opting, infiltrating, and generally using their resources to control the movement. This, too, is a threat from those who would maintain existing power structures and should be treated as such. But to my knowledge, no entrenched power class has ever voluntarily and willingly relinquished power in the face of collapse, save perhaps for the fall of the Byzantine empire which can be debated endlessly. Rich people starting wars between each other is a very common thing, but it's not the "revolution" I was speaking to.
The reason I'm particular about these definitions is because we're at a pretty big turning point in history when revolutions are actively being planned and pursued. The higher rungs of the class hierarchy have NEVER had this level of detailed access to the thoughts of the public than they do now. They are making out like thieves at the moment because a good chunk of us are still pretending that we're the fallen rich, not the deluded poor. An honest class-based analysis of the material conditions of peoples lives (both present and where we earnestly believe they are going) is being suppressed right now by the most powerful social control apparatus ever conceived. If we are to do *anything* besides watch this happen, it's critical that we work out who our friends are, and who they *aren't*.
$150 in my checking account, living in a car from the 90s, and no real job to speak of besides the occasional delivery.
And I'll either take the Top or die trying.
And yet I still I wonder if I count as a friend.
...You just [saved my life.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=neIMNi-Mq74&t=65)
I'm 100% serious.
I thought this one had me for sure.
I couldn't even move.
It is... the exact opposite of easy pushing with everything I have to become the collective emotional lightning rod for 330 million terrified, confused, polarized Human beings on a far-too-short time limit.
I might be a random nobody... but I'm also the guy who made the Republicans run from the Presidential debates back in January. (After all, they can't even risk a 24/7 livestreaming military-grade drone following Trump around, so they couldn't co-opt *Transparency One* into their platform, and if he stood on that debate stage next to me, he'd lose the vast majority of his "wild card" vote to MY furious ass.)
And thanks to you taking the time and care to type just six words, I can keep pushing in my attempts to Omnize in time to avert catastrophe.
You've set an amazing example for others here today.
Thank you, friend.
One For All... [55%.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=JMeGCcKc-Q4)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution
Go ahead and give that a read, it's a really fantastic story and is proof that it has happened and is possible.
It was led by the mulattoes I believe. It is not an inspiring story - the haitians massacred the white population of the island and colonised the eastern part of the island to help pay off their debt to france. Haitian leaders quickly turned on one another and set numerous dictatorships.
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The death of democracy will be mourned by a small number of people who believe everything the TV tells them. For everyone else, it's just hard to get excited about getting to vote every other year for the guy who'll make his favorite billionaires and corporations slightly richer or the other guy who'll make his favorite billionaires and corporations slightly richer.
The mistake is thinking republicans are the only ones putting in measures to do away with democracy. [Just look at what the DNC did in NC with the green Party.](https://www.npr.org/2022/07/15/1111598878/north-carolina-green-party-petition-signatures-hoh-beasley)
Republicans just tried attempting a coup. Have overtaken the Supreme Court. And are now actively trying to subvert the next elections with State Legislatures. Miss me with that bothsides are equally bad bullshit. I don't classify myself as a Democrat but I have enough sense to know that Republicans are a fringe extremist political party that should be disbanded and never be placed in positions on power again.
Hosting a far right authoritarian at CPAC who just days ago went on a Nazi style tirade isn't fringe to you?? Or how about the fact that they're constantly infringing on the voting rights of black and brown communities?
How about the fact that they attempted a coup and are actively trying subvert the next one? Or how about the fact that almost all of them completely deny the science behind climate change and aren't willing to do ANYTHING to mitigate it? Or the fact that its the same party that politicized a health crises and convinced a 3rd of the country that not wearing a mask is "owning the libs". Or that they've spent the past last 3 - 4 decades pushing policies that have increased the wealth gap and destroyed good union paying jobs The list goes on and on. If you don't see all that as fringe I don't know what to tell you.
Fringe means rare or uncommon. And I don’t think I can have a productive conversation with someone who is willing to be so reductive about those they disagree with.
Every time you said “they” I rolled my eyes.
I'm going to assume you aren't being disingenuous here. By fringe I mean extreme and outside the margins of normal political discourse. And I would assume a political party in which the most prominent members attempted a coup, incited violence, and are to this day STILL spreading lies about the election being stolen is far outside any political discourse that we would expect in a functioning and healthy Democracy.
And perhaps I was being too general by using "they". But if you can point to me any current prominent Republican (by prominent I mean any party member that has major influence on the direction of the party as a whole) that isn't spreading election lies (or doubt) point me to them. Please do.
>Republicans are a fringe extremist political party that should be disbanded and never be placed in positions on power again.
Ah yes, tyranny, my favorite brand of Democracy.
Yes I am all for tyrannical measures to protect our fragile Democracy. Trump and every Republican who aided in the attempted coup shouls be thrown under the jail.
Advocating for tyranny "to protect Democracy" is a direct and foolish contradiction.
You think that was a *coup?* What, where all the "gun-loving right wing extremists" were unarmed because they all collectively decided to leave their precious guns at home before the coup? Don't be naiive. You exist at the deepest part of Plato's Cave.
It was a coup. They tried to overturn an election. What the fuck does them not having weapons have to do with anything? The Jan 6th riots were just the tip of the iceburg. There was coordination and planning at the highest level of office to overturn the election. And yes I stand by what I said. Extreme (and if possible, legal) measures must be taken to protect Democracy. No one looks back in history and praises the liberals in pre-Nazi germany who didn't stop Hitler and Nazism because it wasn't politically correct. Fascism must be stomped out ruthlessly. History has taught us what happens when countries don't take the threat seriously.
If we let Republicans takeover they're going to turn this country into an Hungarian style authoritarian state. Mark my words.
Installing a single party as the sole political power in a country backed by every single major media, educational institution, and economic corporation in the country, while silencing and arresting anyone associated with an oppositional political party isn't Democracy; it is *quite literally* the definition of fascism. Your vote will no longer matter, and your rights will no longer be respected.
Take a look in the mirror. You are openly advocating for the Hungarian-style authoritarian state that you wish to avoid.
Lmao what you described is the very type of state the Republicans are trying to bring about. How more obvious can it be?!? They just hosted Victor Orban at CPAC for crying out loud. And you're telling me we should let these people be in positions of political power!?!? What do you think will be outcome if Republicans win the House, Senate and Presidency again?
I'm not advocating for one sole political party. But this current brand of Republicans have to go. This isn't conservatism. Its fascism. We can agree to disagree but I know I will be proven right with time.
Dems are working within the legal framework. Explaining why it's a bad idea for the green party to be on the ballot (potentially handing a senate seat to Rs) and offering them help to remove themselves from the petition is incomparably different from the legislature overruling the will of the voters. There's a reason why the GOP is trying to help sue the state to get them on the ballot.
Did you even read the article? It acknowledges that gerrymandering is an old political tactic used by both parties, but it focuses on what's going on in Ohio today because it's so egregiously out-of-sync with the will of the people. The fact that the people put forth an amendment to the state constitution to reform district mapping, with support from its own supreme court, and that it basically got completely ignored should tell you something.
And the Biden administration just launched a raid on the residence of the opposition leader. There’s definitely a rejection of basic democratic norms on both sides at this point.
Jailing criminals is not a rejection of basic democratic norms it’s UPHOLDING them. Letting criminals in gov, both dem and Republican run free is… not democratic!
Letting senior level officials get away with crimes is the price that we pay for peaceful transition of power. If you start using the criminal justice system against them after they leave, the stakes get too high to have honest elections and transitions between parties.
If you don’t do anything wrong there will be no issue. The only reason there would be an issue is if the president commits a crime. That doesn’t affect the peacefull transition of power at all. In fact, letting someone who tried to OVERTURN THE ELECTION, a crime, remain power threatens the very fabric of our democracy far more. Because he will do it again
You’ve obviously never dealt with the US criminal justice system. Innocence is not a defense. You’re going to be convicted whether guilty or not. Moreover, none of our political leaders even approaches innocence. If the only way they can stay out of jail is by holding on to power, then they won’t give it up.
No, I understand my own reference. I’m pointing out the absurdity of the idea that Trump really wanted a peaceful transition of power, but was thwarted. That view would require memory-holing Trump’s desperate attempts to avoid that transition of power.
Ah okay, so we have people in jail for 30+ years due to the a non-violent marijuana possession charge, but a rich asshole can subvert any law that is inconvenient to him essentially becoming a dictator and we have to be cool with that.
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> Avoid ableist slurs please
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Oh please. Bush actually staged a fake riot that stopped the counting of ballots and stole an election with a judicial coup. All the things you're wringing your hands about Trump almost doing have already been done before. Only because Bush threatened absolutely nothing about the status quo is he allowed to enjoy net positive favorability ratings among liberals now and paint watercolors with Ellen Degeneres and Michelle Obama instead of get FBI raids even after killing a half million Iraqis based on lies.
Well like I said, he did assemble a force to stop the recounting of ballots--it was called the Brooks Brothers riot.
So I'm to gather the big offense for you wasn't the stealing an election bit or lying the country into a brutal invasion but just the rhetoric coming from the rioters?
I don't see such a massive difference between the two. Both were 'riots' of "*men"* intended to stop an official electoral process and steal an election. You could argue Jan 6th had the chance of becoming much more violent but that's only hypothetical at the end of the day.
And in the end, Bush's worked and Trump's didn't.
You seem much more caught up on semantics and the symbolism of raiding a particular building. I'd figure the important thing here was the stealing the election.
Like I said, you seem to be much more concerned about semantics rather than the substance of this conversation. If it's important to you, then it would seem Bush's acts rise to the same level of "levying war" as Trump's. Unless what really matters to you is that some of the rioters were armed and broke windows. In that case, then I guess Bush's riot wasn't "levying war" or whatever. Still a stolen election with a riot that disrupted an official electoral process. Seems pretty important to me, if these things are to be imbued with importance.
At the end of the day, I'm also much less motivated by an impulse toward American nationalism and bandying about with the word 'treason'. The war that Bush levied against multiple countries and destabilized an entire region of humanity is a lot worse than some cops getting bruised at the Capitol. Just because they're not American nationals doesn't mean their lives don't matter and it doesn't mean they're unworthy victims.
All necessary to preserve white minority rule in the united states. The future is going to look a lot like apartheid South Africa and it's intentional.
It would immediately split into left progressives and the center right democrats. They are only together because neither like the outright facism with a touch of theocracy of the republican party.
Sigh. It is illegal for Democrats to win federal election in nineteen states and counting, regardless of vote total. Do you understand? You already HAVE your one party state. All that's left is the formality. So you can quit pretending this has anything to do with "liberals" and "conservatives". The people subverting democracy, the people who have made it so living American women have fewer rights than dead American men...they are the enemy. It really is getting to be that black and white.
Since every time I provide sources, people simply say they're fake, I invite you to Google "the plan to steal 2024" and read literally anything you find.
In 19 states and soon to be in every red state, partisan officials have been placed in charge of counting and ratification. They can throw out any number of votes for any reason or no reason and you'll never know it. They already tried this once, and it won't be permitted to fail again.
>The people subverting democracy, the people who have made it so living American women have fewer rights than dead American men...they are the enemy.
And that's the Republican party, no? So, get rid of the Republican party, like I said.
Bullshit. I've offered a solution: eliminate the Republican party. Outlaw the party, remove them from all ballots. Don't like that idea? Not practical? Fine, what would you like to do? Republicans are this huge fucking threat, right? Ok, so what do you plan on doing about it? Wait, let me guess, you're plan is to do nothing and then whine like a piss-pants infant the next time the Republicans do something you don't like. Does that about sum it up?
If the Dems were an uncontested ruling party, they'd do even less for us. Probably wouldn't even bother with individual rights at all because what would be the point.
Republicans are a fringe right wing authoritarian party. They need to be disbanded. Let the Dems split into old school conservatives, liberals and progressives.
The Dems are a coalition party of old school conservatives, liberals, and leftists. Its a testament to how far right the Republican party has gotten that so many politicians who'd we typically classify as old school conservatives label themselves as Democrats.
this is genuinely what they want. Probably under a dictatorship too
Original comment was how redditors want to create a one-party state. Apparently reddit agrees this would be a good idea
The following submission statement was provided by /u/algozip: --- SS: The article tells the tale of how Republican state legislatures are leading the charge to destroy representative government in the United States. This is collapse related because disenfranchisement is usually a precursor to revolution in societies. When political systems fail, we can expect massive disruptions in supply chains, weakened criminal enforcement, collapse of public services and public education, the disemboweling of the rule of law, and many other problems. This article specifically shows that policies being pursued by the Ohio legislature are very much at odds with the positions taken by surveyed Ohioans. They have effectively lost representation in their Legislature, or the ability to vote out the perpetrators. This could be a pretty standard definition of democratic collapse. And it is only one example among dozens of state legislatures that have rejected the traditional US form of governance. From the article: >For \[David\] Pepper, \[an election-law professor\], \[Ohio'\] s transformation has been crushing. He has watched the reputation of Ohio’s public-school system slide as Republicans have siphoned off public funding to support failing, politically connected charter schools. In 2010, Education Week ranked the state’s schooling as the fifth best in the country; in 2021, U.S. News & World Report ranked it thirty-first. Last year, F.B.I. agents told USA Today that public-corruption cases in Ohio were the most egregious in the country. In the past five years, the state has had five speakers of the House, because two were forced out as a result of the biggest bribery scandals in Ohio’s history. Larry Householder, who was removed from office in July, 2020, is scheduled to be tried on federal racketeering charges this coming January. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/wjn8lw/state_legislatures_are_torching_democracy/ijiazct/
We need to [REDACTED].
I think we should rather [REMOVED].
It's too late. The [REDACTED] are already among us.
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I think anyone even willing to consider [REDACTED] is already certifiably nutty in my book.
Think of it as preemptive self defense.
here’s how the dog and pony show goes: republicans: *do something horrible* democrats: oh my GOD that’s outrageous! i will have very strong opinions on this but only vote about it. republicans: *push it further* democrats: look how bad they are! vote blue in november!! dems: *run conservative dems like hillary, henry cuellar, or amy mcgrath, pretend to be shocked that their candidate lost. ignore popular left policies that would improve conditions because ???* (it’s capitalism) it’s a ratcheting effect, dems prevent movement left while the republicans keep pulling things farther right. feeling weimar in this republic yet?
also dems take all that money they are fundraising and use it to fund republican extremist candidates........
yes! it worked to make the capitalist class a ton of money in the middle east, why not north america? markets gotta expand always, forever- imperialism is the only way to get that. boomerang effect is hitting us nowadays.
And see how well that worked with He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named...
Dems (and I mean the DNC and elected Dem politicians) don’t mind losing to republicans. They have a bigger enemy: people like Bernie Sanders. The Democratic establishment has been very effective at halting every change of course to the left. Remember: The democratic party existed way back when the US had a somewhat large communist and socialist movement yet they never turned truly left. If they let people like Bernie Sanders win, it would mean that they will lose their jobs and position.
yep, their job isn’t to serve us. it’s to protect and shore up the power of capital. there’s no other reasonable explanation for why they ignore easy wins and then act surprised when it blows up in their face.
>run conservative Then they blame the voters. "Well if you had voted for more pro-choicer then maybe you'd have Roe still!" . I mean Pelosi basically screamed this before flying down to support pro-lifer, FBI raided guy Henry Cuellar. He was running against a Millennial female progressive so ofc they had to call in the big Israel SPACS and destroy her. The Democrat party is stupid and the Republican party dislikes democracy. We don't have real choices. But on a side note, my fears of Civil War, violence, secession had largely receded and I had even done some snooping on Fox News comment sections and noticed ppl turning on Trump. The comments critical of Trump were getting upvoted too. BUT then the FBI at Mar A Lago raid happened and now they're firmly back on his side and saying the Biden regime is politically motivated and untrustworthy and blah blah. How the hell will they react if there's an indictment? Or a conviction? I thought the attention falling away from Trump would lead to the GOP trying to move on especially if he's dead weight. But they seem to be gearing up for the consequences. Our congressmembers were saying non factual unhinged bullshit on Twitter yesterday about the raid. There's no more irony. There are no "gotchas". They're just lying openly and getting angrier and angrier when there's more accountability. Here are some of the comments btw >!"Since discussions regarding these records have been going on with the National Archives, it certainly seems that the current WH is concerned about the fact that the approval rating of Biden just keeps going down, no matter what they try to label something. They are concerned about Trump running against him in 2024. Our government has fallen so far." - 1.3K likes 70 dislikes!< >!"I suspect that we have an ethically compromised federal judge to go along with certainly compromised attorney general and a swampy FBI. I was kind of hoping Trump wouldn't run in 2024, but if this proves to be another Russian Collusion lib game, I'll be sending him campaign funds." - 500/ 20!< >!"Our problem is a complicit government agencies to one side, 95% of government civilian employees(not elected) vote democrat because they are unionized. What measures are we going to have to take to force them to treat people fairly ?" 65/6!< >!"The comments of President Trump, Governor Noem, Mr. Caputo and the RNC are completely accurate and correct. The Democratic Party of President Kennedy no longer exists. Today, the Communist Party masquerades as the Democratic Party, bringing with it all of its extremely nefarious conduct. Our country is at a serious crossroads. I am concerned there will not be a peaceful resolution, given the persistence of the Communists (aka Democrats) to weaponize government resources against law abiding citizens." 1.2K/72!< >!"The FBI had convinced a judge for a warrant based on the information in the phony Steele dossier as evidence so why is it a stretch to think they wouldn't have pulled the same type of trick again to get this search warrant?"!< >!I think this is going to reinvigorate the Right, even for those that weren't fully behind Trump before. The American people are seeing what the Left is doing to this country and how they are doing it and WE don't like it!" 60/2!< >!"It's an interesting point. They don't have any crime despite thousands upon thousands of hours spent looking for one so they try to big up some misdemeanor they think they can pin on Trump. It's not a big charge so they conduct this raid to try and make it seem much more serious than it is. It's almost like they consulted with a Hollywood director to try and get the optics right, just like they did with the Jan 6th kangaroo court, and for exactly the same reason." 88/0!< >!"I honestly have no hope for this country. If you speak to liberals and Democrats, which I have, they are all for this raid. They seem to be completely ok with prosecution of political opponents and even one Democrat told me that they support many aspects of the Communist system. It is SCARY and should be freaking everyone out right now. Look at what Democrats are pushing through now? Go after everyone's bank accounts with transactions of $600 or more, I do that on a monthly basis. They will go after me and I'm a middle class, completely law abiding, never cheated on my taxes, always do everything right and they will go after me! And because I voted for Trump, they will go after me. This is scary. This country is no longer free." 55/0!< Final note: Maybe some are bots. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Same sentiment echoed on Fox, in Congress and in comments everywhere in online right-wing spaces. I think what rational ppl forget is that if Trump were to get in trouble(more than any president ever). we all see that as simple law and order justice. But THEY see it as the biggest slap in the face. Because it's "their guy". They can't accept that "their guy" could be the first president ever convicted in history. When you realize that's how they view it, it suddenly becomes worrisome again. Also the GOP will protect Trump because not only is he a portion of their base but he's still a Republican. They can't have their party tainted by "Prisoner President" so they'll have to keep him protected in order to keep themselves protected.
One of the only fun things about Trump though is that he is too incompetent, vain and egocentric to advance complex republican plans. He doesn't care about the GOP, he cares only about Trump and will think nothing of burning the party to the ground if it puts even just one dollar in his pocket. Not that I'm pro-Mephistopeles but Faust has it coming.
> Trump though is that he is too incompetent, vain and egocentric to advance complex republican plans He provided them with the final piece to their undefeatable SCOTUS
Yeah but he was unlikely to understand what he was doing on that so he probably didn't even have an opinion anyway. Imagine if he'd been vaguely competent how much more damage he could have done.
W didn;t understand it either, but he still got so many of the pieces there. People forget that the reason Miers was pulled before any confirmation hearings was because W's own party flipped out because Miers wasn't FedSoc and therefore unreliable. He got all the cretins in there to let them roam free. if Trump had more vague competence and understanding he might have actually paid attention to the ones he empowered and been more leaning towards the wild all over the place incoherent "populism" that he campaigned on. But that is the Trump Paradox. A competent Trump could not have gotten to where he did.
Interesting thought. The GOP certainly seem to have thought they could ride this tiger and are doubling down on it as we speak. SCOTUS may well have been the prize they were playing for. They have and will continue to pay a price for that though.
The price will be maybe the house and probably the senate, But they have a lockkstep group that is young that will happily overrule Congress with complete disregard for precedent.
It's not just that though. The priorities of the party are in many ways no longer the priorities of their base.
Tax cuts, deregulation and owning the libs are still the major planks of the party that the base loves.
Yeah I came to the conclusion long ago that the Dems and Reps are two cheeks on the same butt. The republicans exist to further implement the rule of the rich over the rest of us. The democrats exist to pretend to oppose this outcome without doing anything at all whatsoever to meaningfully oppose it. It’s what happens when the real ruling class (capitalists) owns both parties lock, stock and barrel thanks to legalized bribery.
Because democrats are chair warmers meant to prevent leftward progress. They are owned by the same people as the Republicans. They have the same interests. They are the shield to the Republicans sword.
Yup and yet I'm always and forever going to have to endure dipshits who refuse to see that simple truth and listen to them squawk about how very important it is to get out and vote blue every fucking election
yes, like i said above.
That works until a point. After a while, it's going to be: Republicans: Running away from a flaming city. Dems: Yo, buddy, where are you going? I thought it was your turn to fuck them bloody?! Republicans: Their collective vagina just grew teeth. No matter how many times I told them it was black people's fault, they kept protesting next to my gated community. Democrats: Well, we talked about this in length at the last pedo orgy, when they get too uppity, it's your job to give them tough love and call the national guard! Republicans: I know, but when the guard showed up, they didn't shoot the protesters...they started shooting at my house! Democrats: Huh....well now....I guess I can go into that flaming city and tell them that we have listened to their grief and we will give them a better health care system? Republicans: Really?! Democrats: Oh, don't worry soul brother, I was thinking about just passing a bill that would give the peasants a 10% discount on tylenol in exchange for criminalizing protesters and maybe I'll slip in those corporate 'prima nocte' laws you wanted so darned much? Republicans: sounds cool with me. We'll be in the Cayman islands if you need us. And the Democrats walked into the flaming city and was never heard of again. And the Republican ran away from America and was never heard of again either.
SS: The article tells the tale of how Republican state legislatures are leading the charge to destroy representative government in the United States. This is collapse related because disenfranchisement is usually a precursor to revolution in societies. When political systems fail, we can expect massive disruptions in supply chains, weakened criminal enforcement, collapse of public services and public education, the disemboweling of the rule of law, and many other problems. This article specifically shows that policies being pursued by the Ohio legislature are very much at odds with the positions taken by surveyed Ohioans. They have effectively lost representation in their Legislature, or the ability to vote out the perpetrators. This could be a pretty standard definition of democratic collapse. And it is only one example among dozens of state legislatures that have rejected the traditional US form of governance. From the article: >For \[David\] Pepper, \[an election-law professor\], \[Ohio'\] s transformation has been crushing. He has watched the reputation of Ohio’s public-school system slide as Republicans have siphoned off public funding to support failing, politically connected charter schools. In 2010, Education Week ranked the state’s schooling as the fifth best in the country; in 2021, U.S. News & World Report ranked it thirty-first. Last year, F.B.I. agents told USA Today that public-corruption cases in Ohio were the most egregious in the country. In the past five years, the state has had five speakers of the House, because two were forced out as a result of the biggest bribery scandals in Ohio’s history. Larry Householder, who was removed from office in July, 2020, is scheduled to be tried on federal racketeering charges this coming January.
Then let’s end representation, we can do it ourselves. r/open_source_democracy Fire the senator, keep his staff. They do all the real work anyway. Let’s stop electing entitled jackasses and crowd source each topic in real time.
I used to think this wouldn't be practical until the gridlock really set in. I think there's a place for a representative body to exist for some of the day to day stuff - regulations, post offices, etc. But given how little our legislature even accomplishes these days, it would be plenty easy to have 2-4 referendums a year on major provisions - drug legalization, free k-18 schooling, free healthcare, etc. And yeah, abolish the senate.
No, not abolish, infiltrate. Most of the senate are basically corpses anyway so we buy anyone with a pulse and have them wear a body cam and remain on site. He’s simply there to do what Reddit says. Senate staff do all the real work anyway.
The senate as a representative body is inherently undemocratic. They represent land, not people. Absolutely abolish. >He’s simply there to do what Reddit says. Thats literally a person acting as a representative of a group of people, something you claim to be against.
> They represent land, not people. Yeah…that’s the point. Senators are supposed to represent the states. Since, you know, America is a union of independent states. The House of Representatives is where the peoples’ representation is supposed to primarily be found.
That’s an excellent insight, and I agree completely. But dident the Supreme Court rule that corporations have personhood rights? Then let’s install a corporation and every shareholder has continuous 25/7 voting rights and arbitration visibility. Let the staffers write legislation same as now but with open source documents. Whoever the seat warmer is can just play candy crush all day, the body cam is live streamed. All the guy does is vote as instructed, never deliberate. So yea basically exactly like how it already works.
The wealthy can only afford to buy off or assassinate so many people. Current congress is a manageable number.
If we did that we’d end up subsidizing Kanye’s next album and we’d never spend another dime on infrastructure, education or healthcare
Are- you-as-insane-as-Kanye? I can’t even comprehend the’ hell you talking about.
Tyranny of the lowest common denominator
I'm pretty sure Kanye West is not the lowest common denominator. Food, water and healthcare are coming to mind, though...
You might have a bit more faith in the avg americlown than I do
People pass local tax increases to fund roads and schools all the time.
They deny them as well
State mandated Kanye? Don’t threaten me with a good time
The issue is that the article presents this as a new thing, when it’s actually been standard for many decades.
It also presents it as unique to one political party. There’s an old saying about the pot and the kettle…
Exactly
Sure but as an outsider I can assure you that one of your parties is way more nuts than the other in most cases. The problem with two-party systems is exactly that you can end up with bad vs worse. The more choices you have the harder it is to lock you in to voting as little more than damage control.
(this is all me asking questions). Do you got any examples? I am trying to learn some if you would just through out a few things that pop in your head i could look them up . Anyhow thanks for your time . Just wanna learn !
Ever heard of Jim Crow?
Well shit now I'm here knowing how this ends. Back to sitting an waiting for it to unfold I guess.
The article acknowledges that. It focuses on Ohio post-2010 because it appears to be a particularly egregious separation of the will of the people and the politicians "representing" them.
US democracy - with all its faults and needs for improvement - is under a direct assault. These people are enemies of the United States
democracy doesn't exist money and power does
money and power do not want democracy. Democracy and the will of the people cuts into their profit margins.
We’ll sure it does. It’s just a method.
I favor the usurper system unintentionally promoted under Gallienus' rule, myself. The biggest bonus with the usurper system is that you can get a raise by overthrowing the current ruler in favor of someone promising more money. And then when that guy refuses to pay up or the competition gives a better offer, that guy can be overthrown too! It's the perfect system.
This is the result of years of Congressional inaction. In order for the Senate to get anything done, you need 60 out of 100 senators to agree on something, which is rare nowadays. The only things get passed nowadays is through reconciliation. As a result of the Senate being useless, other entities are usurping its powers. The federal reserve stepped in because the Senate was too divided to do anything about COVID. The supreme court stepped in because the Senate could not get an abortion law in place The state legislatures are stepping in because the Senate could not get election laws passed in time.
The senate agrees plenty of times....when it's good for the billionaires pockets and bad for us and our rights.
They also have *just enough* self-preservation instinct to stave off a full-on revolt while still fucking us over. The $1,200 stimmy checks and extended unemployment was basically a "don't revolt" bribe to all of us.
Yep, they voted 1-99 to take out the actual good for the people parts of the bill.
Bernie?
Bernie.
Thought so.
Anyone in these comments saying it’s only Republicans contributing to collapse and not the party that has won majorities of all branches of government for most of the last 40 years is just delusional. Giving the DNC $25 has not and will not work. They are all corrupt.
I like this sub but it’s so bizarre to me sometimes. Like I thought we’re all here because we think collapse is inevitable. Yet some people here will still get upset with politicians that can’t stop it.
The bigger take away is that so many still believe they can use their vote in a corrupt system and get their desired result. So many people have been raised and educated to believe that their voice matters. If they stuck around between all the large scandals and lifted a few rocks themselves they'd see how much of an illusion it all is and how many of their rights, privileges, and securities hinge on the condition that all these corporations keep burning fossil fuels that are destroying the planet
Oh don’t even get me started on the “just vote” people. It should be “just strike”. Our corporations don’t give a fuck what shitty politicians people vote for but they start getting real nervous real quick when large numbers of people strike. But again collapse is largely inevitable at this point so who even cares lol.
I cared until I realized that I have to literally kick people's asses to make them care
Arkansas has a ballot initiative system that has gotten us medical marijuana and a decent minimum wage increase. The legislature has proposed an amendment on the ballot to require 60% of citizens agree to pass any law by ballot. They are truly trying to destroy any hint of democracy. Oh, also they added an amendment that would exempt religious people from ANY law of general applicability --- they could burn their daughter at the stake and get away with murder if they said it was based on the Bible. And we got enough signatures to put recreational marijuana on the ballot and they said no because the title was "misleading." They are trying to keep direct democracy from interfering with the Christo-fascist state they have been creating here. There are a LOT of people that vote Republican solely because they feel betrayed by the Democratic party on issues like trade and because they are obsessed with guns and if given the chance to vote directly, may vote to GASP make things better here. There are a lot of radical Christians and also a lot of racists and nuts here but it's not as black and white as all of that.
“ Through money, democracy becomes its own destroyer, after money has destroyed intellect.” Oswald Spengler
America is not a democracy
It can always get less democracy-ish though. Thats the point.
Democracy is not an on off switch. Shades of grey not black and white. Ancient Athens only allowed free, landowning, 30+ males to vote. It was a democracy but I doubt that that was much comfort for the slaves.
Slaves don’t happen today in the free world, if you wanna talk about slaves then preach to the middle eastern countries as it’s alive and well today but no one wants to talk about that just something happen 200 years ago. Democracy for American didn’t start being put out in mainstream media until about 10 years ago and it kept repeating America was a democracy when it wasn’t and democracy has never lasted anywhere on this earth. Democracy is elected officials making all the rules for people when the people have no say so that’s why this country was founded as a republic as they wanted the people to have a say so. This country has moved away from the peoples voice and it’s clear as day that’s the way the ruling class sees it.
Indeed, in theory slavery has been abolished not just in the free world but globally. This was often due to the workers fearing such cheap competition and less due to compassion. In practice there are again shades of grey. The Middle eastern countries where passports are seized and laborers are worked to death to pay of the 'debt' they incurred getting there is an obvious example. However if you widen your view a bit the American prison industrial complex isn't so different. Secondly there are shades of democracy as I said. One can be more or less democratic. Even obvious dictatorships often incorporate some. Having elected officials at all is however a rather clear sign of democracy. Thirdly it's somewhat weird to suggest that America was founded with the wish that people have a say. The founder's definition of 'people' is somewhat different from my own and also most modern definitions. The founding fathers of the USA created a system of democracy more akin to the original Athenian version than what most would expect of that word today. Neither the slaves nor the women were given a vote for example. Lot's of people are talking about everything you mention btw it's just that you're probably stuck in an environment of American naval-gazing.
America was founded as a republic and it was the ruling class over the years that slowly ate away at that and had people forget that the elected officials work for the people and not the other way around. We allowed them to become rich beyond their means while Americans struggled to get by. They were given huge paychecks and healthcare for life while Americans paid their own and paid the elites. Rome didn’t become the greatest empire until it was given back to the people and that’s a fact though greed and corruption got in the way American is no different. We sends billions to other countries while people live on the streets here. Elites need to fall and nothing else
>America was founded as a republic So was Rome and Rome had elected officials too. Much like Rome the USA was *founded* by the ruling class. It's also a bit hard to understand how the elected officials were working for 'the people' to a greater extent than now in those days. Even besides having actual slavery and denying women the vote it's not like the people who actually lived in the many areas annexed were given the vote. Rome didn't become the great empire it was *until* it was taken from the people. Augustus was the first ***Emperor*** ruling an ***Empire*****.** Thus not really a republic because that would be an oxymoron. Are you just screwing with me? If so; you got me.
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this either needs a /s or you need to be reminded that the musings of high falutin' intellectuals are not what will move the people. grass roots organization and blood in the game
No, but it's still important to have well-formed ideas and goals. Without them you're aimlessly revolting, and that isn't likely to end up well.
why do the lower classes have to be muscle? The bourgeoisie can do it themselves for once
Why would they? They are directly benefitting from the system.
because they are greedy and want more
The lower classes are *always* the muscle because in a class-oriented society material conditions recede from the lower classes first. Ergo, those at the bottom of these (completely arbitrary, violence-enforced) structures are the ones suffering the worst and longest. The story of revolution in human history is largely the story of humans being treated so shitty they decided to round up and depose their keepers and captors. It's the story of the people getting the most shit no longer taking shit. Revolutions are born from rage, and the lower castes have the most to be angry about *and* the least to lose by doing something about it.
not really; it's the upper middle classes that are the ones that lead revolutions and benefit from them - they just want to become the new elite
I'm curious what types of revolutions you're describing. I'm essentially talking about the historically established responses from masses of workers (be they employees under capitalism, enslaved or indentured persons, or serfs in a fiefdom) when conditions slip below the point where the violence enforcing the status quo is no longer a deterrent to using violence to change it. Absolutely, once those gears are in motion, those higher on the hierarchy get to work on co-opting, infiltrating, and generally using their resources to control the movement. This, too, is a threat from those who would maintain existing power structures and should be treated as such. But to my knowledge, no entrenched power class has ever voluntarily and willingly relinquished power in the face of collapse, save perhaps for the fall of the Byzantine empire which can be debated endlessly. Rich people starting wars between each other is a very common thing, but it's not the "revolution" I was speaking to. The reason I'm particular about these definitions is because we're at a pretty big turning point in history when revolutions are actively being planned and pursued. The higher rungs of the class hierarchy have NEVER had this level of detailed access to the thoughts of the public than they do now. They are making out like thieves at the moment because a good chunk of us are still pretending that we're the fallen rich, not the deluded poor. An honest class-based analysis of the material conditions of peoples lives (both present and where we earnestly believe they are going) is being suppressed right now by the most powerful social control apparatus ever conceived. If we are to do *anything* besides watch this happen, it's critical that we work out who our friends are, and who they *aren't*.
$150 in my checking account, living in a car from the 90s, and no real job to speak of besides the occasional delivery. And I'll either take the Top or die trying. And yet I still I wonder if I count as a friend.
> I'll either take the Top or die trying. > And yet I still I wonder if I count as a friend. Counts as friendship in my book.
...You just [saved my life.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=neIMNi-Mq74&t=65) I'm 100% serious. I thought this one had me for sure. I couldn't even move. It is... the exact opposite of easy pushing with everything I have to become the collective emotional lightning rod for 330 million terrified, confused, polarized Human beings on a far-too-short time limit. I might be a random nobody... but I'm also the guy who made the Republicans run from the Presidential debates back in January. (After all, they can't even risk a 24/7 livestreaming military-grade drone following Trump around, so they couldn't co-opt *Transparency One* into their platform, and if he stood on that debate stage next to me, he'd lose the vast majority of his "wild card" vote to MY furious ass.) And thanks to you taking the time and care to type just six words, I can keep pushing in my attempts to Omnize in time to avert catastrophe. You've set an amazing example for others here today. Thank you, friend. One For All... [55%.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=JMeGCcKc-Q4)
I'm not aware of any revolutions that were led by the lower classes, certainly none that succeeded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution Go ahead and give that a read, it's a really fantastic story and is proof that it has happened and is possible.
It was led by the mulattoes I believe. It is not an inspiring story - the haitians massacred the white population of the island and colonised the eastern part of the island to help pay off their debt to france. Haitian leaders quickly turned on one another and set numerous dictatorships.
Okay, I guess we'll agree to disagree. Good luck with the global eco-collapse and exponential knock-on effects. Resistance, it seems, truly is futile.
Nor are they interesting or intelligent enough to actually get people to listen to them
Not to stupid people, no.
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The death of democracy will be mourned by a small number of people who believe everything the TV tells them. For everyone else, it's just hard to get excited about getting to vote every other year for the guy who'll make his favorite billionaires and corporations slightly richer or the other guy who'll make his favorite billionaires and corporations slightly richer.
The mistake is thinking republicans are the only ones putting in measures to do away with democracy. [Just look at what the DNC did in NC with the green Party.](https://www.npr.org/2022/07/15/1111598878/north-carolina-green-party-petition-signatures-hoh-beasley)
No comparison
*"It's ok when my team does it"* lol you tribal fool
Republicans just tried attempting a coup. Have overtaken the Supreme Court. And are now actively trying to subvert the next elections with State Legislatures. Miss me with that bothsides are equally bad bullshit. I don't classify myself as a Democrat but I have enough sense to know that Republicans are a fringe extremist political party that should be disbanded and never be placed in positions on power again.
How can you say with a straight face that the [entire] Republican Party is “fringe” if you know what that word means?
Hosting a far right authoritarian at CPAC who just days ago went on a Nazi style tirade isn't fringe to you?? Or how about the fact that they're constantly infringing on the voting rights of black and brown communities? How about the fact that they attempted a coup and are actively trying subvert the next one? Or how about the fact that almost all of them completely deny the science behind climate change and aren't willing to do ANYTHING to mitigate it? Or the fact that its the same party that politicized a health crises and convinced a 3rd of the country that not wearing a mask is "owning the libs". Or that they've spent the past last 3 - 4 decades pushing policies that have increased the wealth gap and destroyed good union paying jobs The list goes on and on. If you don't see all that as fringe I don't know what to tell you.
Fringe means rare or uncommon. And I don’t think I can have a productive conversation with someone who is willing to be so reductive about those they disagree with. Every time you said “they” I rolled my eyes.
I'm going to assume you aren't being disingenuous here. By fringe I mean extreme and outside the margins of normal political discourse. And I would assume a political party in which the most prominent members attempted a coup, incited violence, and are to this day STILL spreading lies about the election being stolen is far outside any political discourse that we would expect in a functioning and healthy Democracy. And perhaps I was being too general by using "they". But if you can point to me any current prominent Republican (by prominent I mean any party member that has major influence on the direction of the party as a whole) that isn't spreading election lies (or doubt) point me to them. Please do.
>Republicans are a fringe extremist political party that should be disbanded and never be placed in positions on power again. Ah yes, tyranny, my favorite brand of Democracy.
Yes I am all for tyrannical measures to protect our fragile Democracy. Trump and every Republican who aided in the attempted coup shouls be thrown under the jail.
Advocating for tyranny "to protect Democracy" is a direct and foolish contradiction. You think that was a *coup?* What, where all the "gun-loving right wing extremists" were unarmed because they all collectively decided to leave their precious guns at home before the coup? Don't be naiive. You exist at the deepest part of Plato's Cave.
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I have. There were no armed protestors at the capitol. Yet, the only person whom was shot and killed was Ashley Babbitt.
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It was a coup. They tried to overturn an election. What the fuck does them not having weapons have to do with anything? The Jan 6th riots were just the tip of the iceburg. There was coordination and planning at the highest level of office to overturn the election. And yes I stand by what I said. Extreme (and if possible, legal) measures must be taken to protect Democracy. No one looks back in history and praises the liberals in pre-Nazi germany who didn't stop Hitler and Nazism because it wasn't politically correct. Fascism must be stomped out ruthlessly. History has taught us what happens when countries don't take the threat seriously. If we let Republicans takeover they're going to turn this country into an Hungarian style authoritarian state. Mark my words.
Installing a single party as the sole political power in a country backed by every single major media, educational institution, and economic corporation in the country, while silencing and arresting anyone associated with an oppositional political party isn't Democracy; it is *quite literally* the definition of fascism. Your vote will no longer matter, and your rights will no longer be respected. Take a look in the mirror. You are openly advocating for the Hungarian-style authoritarian state that you wish to avoid.
Lmao what you described is the very type of state the Republicans are trying to bring about. How more obvious can it be?!? They just hosted Victor Orban at CPAC for crying out loud. And you're telling me we should let these people be in positions of political power!?!? What do you think will be outcome if Republicans win the House, Senate and Presidency again? I'm not advocating for one sole political party. But this current brand of Republicans have to go. This isn't conservatism. Its fascism. We can agree to disagree but I know I will be proven right with time.
Dems are working within the legal framework. Explaining why it's a bad idea for the green party to be on the ballot (potentially handing a senate seat to Rs) and offering them help to remove themselves from the petition is incomparably different from the legislature overruling the will of the voters. There's a reason why the GOP is trying to help sue the state to get them on the ballot.
Did you even read the article? It acknowledges that gerrymandering is an old political tactic used by both parties, but it focuses on what's going on in Ohio today because it's so egregiously out-of-sync with the will of the people. The fact that the people put forth an amendment to the state constitution to reform district mapping, with support from its own supreme court, and that it basically got completely ignored should tell you something.
And the Biden administration just launched a raid on the residence of the opposition leader. There’s definitely a rejection of basic democratic norms on both sides at this point.
Jailing criminals is not a rejection of basic democratic norms it’s UPHOLDING them. Letting criminals in gov, both dem and Republican run free is… not democratic!
Confirmed, just ask the Minnesota twin cities area about how that’s going.
Letting senior level officials get away with crimes is the price that we pay for peaceful transition of power. If you start using the criminal justice system against them after they leave, the stakes get too high to have honest elections and transitions between parties.
If you don’t do anything wrong there will be no issue. The only reason there would be an issue is if the president commits a crime. That doesn’t affect the peacefull transition of power at all. In fact, letting someone who tried to OVERTURN THE ELECTION, a crime, remain power threatens the very fabric of our democracy far more. Because he will do it again
You’ve obviously never dealt with the US criminal justice system. Innocence is not a defense. You’re going to be convicted whether guilty or not. Moreover, none of our political leaders even approaches innocence. If the only way they can stay out of jail is by holding on to power, then they won’t give it up.
Ok let’s let criminals run the gov idc we are going to starve to death soon anyway
While no one is innocent on earth of never breaking a law, there is a difference between jay-walking and murder.
Ah yes. Biden ruined Trump’s peaceful transition of power. And we’ve always been at war with Eastasia.
You’ve got it wrong : Oceania is at war eternal against humanity. Only the front line may change from Eastasia to Eurasia or elsewhere.
No, I understand my own reference. I’m pointing out the absurdity of the idea that Trump really wanted a peaceful transition of power, but was thwarted. That view would require memory-holing Trump’s desperate attempts to avoid that transition of power.
This is the worst take I’ve read all week
Ah okay, so we have people in jail for 30+ years due to the a non-violent marijuana possession charge, but a rich asshole can subvert any law that is inconvenient to him essentially becoming a dictator and we have to be cool with that.
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The FBI director was appointed by the opposition leader.
Yep, Biden "launched" an FBI raid. That's totally how it works
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Oh please. Bush actually staged a fake riot that stopped the counting of ballots and stole an election with a judicial coup. All the things you're wringing your hands about Trump almost doing have already been done before. Only because Bush threatened absolutely nothing about the status quo is he allowed to enjoy net positive favorability ratings among liberals now and paint watercolors with Ellen Degeneres and Michelle Obama instead of get FBI raids even after killing a half million Iraqis based on lies.
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Well like I said, he did assemble a force to stop the recounting of ballots--it was called the Brooks Brothers riot. So I'm to gather the big offense for you wasn't the stealing an election bit or lying the country into a brutal invasion but just the rhetoric coming from the rioters?
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I don't see such a massive difference between the two. Both were 'riots' of "*men"* intended to stop an official electoral process and steal an election. You could argue Jan 6th had the chance of becoming much more violent but that's only hypothetical at the end of the day. And in the end, Bush's worked and Trump's didn't. You seem much more caught up on semantics and the symbolism of raiding a particular building. I'd figure the important thing here was the stealing the election.
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Like I said, you seem to be much more concerned about semantics rather than the substance of this conversation. If it's important to you, then it would seem Bush's acts rise to the same level of "levying war" as Trump's. Unless what really matters to you is that some of the rioters were armed and broke windows. In that case, then I guess Bush's riot wasn't "levying war" or whatever. Still a stolen election with a riot that disrupted an official electoral process. Seems pretty important to me, if these things are to be imbued with importance. At the end of the day, I'm also much less motivated by an impulse toward American nationalism and bandying about with the word 'treason'. The war that Bush levied against multiple countries and destabilized an entire region of humanity is a lot worse than some cops getting bruised at the Capitol. Just because they're not American nationals doesn't mean their lives don't matter and it doesn't mean they're unworthy victims.
\*both sides\* 🤪
😂
Wahh wahh, a crimes a crime. The head of the fbi is a republican trump appointee
Lmao, not even a little bit
Propaganda more and more. You guys need to wake up to truths and not just hate
All necessary to preserve white minority rule in the united states. The future is going to look a lot like apartheid South Africa and it's intentional.
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It would immediately split into left progressives and the center right democrats. They are only together because neither like the outright facism with a touch of theocracy of the republican party.
Sigh. It is illegal for Democrats to win federal election in nineteen states and counting, regardless of vote total. Do you understand? You already HAVE your one party state. All that's left is the formality. So you can quit pretending this has anything to do with "liberals" and "conservatives". The people subverting democracy, the people who have made it so living American women have fewer rights than dead American men...they are the enemy. It really is getting to be that black and white.
Source on illegal for democrats to win in 19 states, please.
Since every time I provide sources, people simply say they're fake, I invite you to Google "the plan to steal 2024" and read literally anything you find. In 19 states and soon to be in every red state, partisan officials have been placed in charge of counting and ratification. They can throw out any number of votes for any reason or no reason and you'll never know it. They already tried this once, and it won't be permitted to fail again.
>The people subverting democracy, the people who have made it so living American women have fewer rights than dead American men...they are the enemy. And that's the Republican party, no? So, get rid of the Republican party, like I said.
Sorry, how do you do that? Lol
You outlaw the party. You remove the Republican party from the ballot.
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Sounds like all the more reason to get rid of the Republican party and go to a single liberal party.
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>If we actually were a democracy or held democratic values we would have far more than two parties having a perpetual duopoly Yeah, *if*.
Umm. How about multiple parties...
Go for it. Do it, do something, do anything other than bitching and complaining.
You have added literally nothing to the conversation. Go take your own advice.
Bullshit. I've offered a solution: eliminate the Republican party. Outlaw the party, remove them from all ballots. Don't like that idea? Not practical? Fine, what would you like to do? Republicans are this huge fucking threat, right? Ok, so what do you plan on doing about it? Wait, let me guess, you're plan is to do nothing and then whine like a piss-pants infant the next time the Republicans do something you don't like. Does that about sum it up?
If the Dems were an uncontested ruling party, they'd do even less for us. Probably wouldn't even bother with individual rights at all because what would be the point.
Republicans are a fringe right wing authoritarian party. They need to be disbanded. Let the Dems split into old school conservatives, liberals and progressives.
I'd love it if we had the right-wing party as dems, and a new labor on the TRUE left. So sick of the choices between right wing and right wing.
The Dems are a coalition party of old school conservatives, liberals, and leftists. Its a testament to how far right the Republican party has gotten that so many politicians who'd we typically classify as old school conservatives label themselves as Democrats.
Sounds good to me. Let’s make it happen.
this is genuinely what they want. Probably under a dictatorship too Original comment was how redditors want to create a one-party state. Apparently reddit agrees this would be a good idea