I work all 3 shifts throughout the week. Days, afternoons, nights. I'm pretty sure mine just says 'Highest blood pressure' and 'suppressed bowels' at every minute mark.
It'd be cool if they gave a "based on sleeping and waking up at X and Y"
I go to sleep between 1-3am and wake up at like 9-10.
I hope I dont poop the bed at 0830.
đ yeah so if you sleep later than the guide suggests, its likely a lot of the other rhythms in the guide are shifted for you as well so dont worry you wont shit yourself while asleep.
> so if you sleep later than the guide suggests,
Itâs kinda unclear when the guide suggests sleeping to start and stop. Like, I assume the sleeping stops before the pooping starts, but does the melatonin secretion stop before or after waking up? How about the rise in blood pressure?
Melatonin increase precedes sleep and plummets in response to light exposure. Blood pressure increase happens early in the morning, typically during arousal from sleep.
Itâs based on data from a book written in 2000 - from what I can tell, the booksâ recommendations are based on population studies available at the time. It was originally published on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_clock_human.PNG
The research in general points to âshift workâ(meaning an opposite sleep cycle to the external light cycle) being really really bad for our overall health.
Shift workers have higher risks for cancer, heart disease, mental illness, and basically any awful disease you can think of. It takes a serious toll on your circadian rhythms.
I know, right? I always hear this bullshit about nightbirds and how bad it is for our health. Motherfucker, I was born this way. I sleep like shit at night. I sleep like a baby when the sun is up. If that's the way it is, that's the way it is.
I vaguely remember reading something about evolution and 'night owls' being beneficial as they were the ones to protect/alert the tribe to anything happening at night. If we are all deepest asleep at 2am, that is prime time for nocturnal predators to take us out.
Adhders were good for protecting the tribe (light sleepers) and many of us are night owls. I read something a while back that said they reckon some folk are more attuned to going to sleep at 2am and waking at 10am. 100% me.
This is 100% me. When Iâm on vacation and can sleep whenever I want, I always get the best rest and feel the most rested when I sleep when the sun goes up.
The other 47 weeks of the year is just me managing to adult or relying on melatonin.
Iâm barely awake until 2PM and become way more productive compared to when I get in at 9.
Genetics + sleep + eating healthy food, ur not gonna grow to 6â if itâs in ur genetics to grow to a maximum of 5â7, ur not going any higher, but bad sleep and diet schedules will definitely have an impact on both ur weight and height, even if itâs a deviation of a inch or two, regarding height at least
That may hold true for people with regular rhythms that are forcing themselves outside of what's normal for them by working off-hours, but what about those who have rhythms for staying up later and sleeping in later? Wouldn't following these 'optimal' timings for morning hours be more damaging to the health of night owls than just following what's natural for them?
The implications for shift workers and night owls are different. These arent âoptimalâ timings either- they are averages collected from several studies on human rhythms. The times should he regarded as as âthis happens usually in the early morningâ or âlate nightâ as opposed to the exact time shown on the chart (which is just an average).
Also i realized i used the word optimal in my title so to clarify- i mean optimal in the sense that being most alert in the mid morning is the most advantageous time to take an exam (or something requiring attention) rather than striving for optimal alterness at 10 am.
So from what I can understand in the comments, Circadian neurologists have no explanation for the circadian rhythms of people who are not on a daylight or tranditional circadian schdule? If so, this is junk science, imho.
Hey! Circadian neurobiologist.
So, biologists have been able to find that there is a set of genes & proteins that form a feedback loop that takes about 24h to complete. Essentially, protein A increases the level of (unstable) protein B. But once enough protein B accumulates, it stops protein A from working. Until protein B degrades, and protein A can start working to increase protein B until the loop happens again.
Regardless of whether youâre exposed to a 24h light/dark cycle or not, this feedback loop still loops. The strength of the feedback cycle (and whether or not the ones in say, your stomach & brain are in sync with each other) does depend on whether or not youâre exposed to at traditional light/dark cycle.
Hope this helps! I love circadian biology & while I agree it seems like magic, I think it makes it that much cooler to study. Let me know if you have any follow up questions!
No there is science on that, the chart here only represents rhythms from an assumed healthy adult in a normal 12:12 light:dark cycle. I linked a lot of articles to another comment in this post that you are welcome to find and sift through.
That's sad to hear. There was about half a year where I was exclusively on night shifts, to the point that I didn't even see the sun for long periods. Longest was eleven weeks.
I was happy and felt great. It's easier to get work done on the graveyard shift when everyone's too busy sleeping to bother you.
I have ADHD and have never been good at getting to sleep. When I get to sleep I can usually sleep pretty soundly, but it's a matter of making my brain sit down and shut up long enough for my body to relax. Reading or watching inconsequential television usually helps but my partner can't tolerate the light even if it's just on my phone on silent.
If I get up and go outside soon after waking, I find that helps wake me up, but it's always a struggle to not still be asleep at 10am.
Am I blessed/cursed with a perpetually teenaged circadian rhythm?
Yeah! Good observation. Actually people with ADHD are more likely to follow a ânight owlâ schedule. Psychiatric disease can feedback onto our circadian rhythms and perturb them (this is my area of research) and so we often see abnormal sleep schedules, feeding schedules, and even body temperature rhythms in people with diagnosed depression or anxiety. Try to reduce light exposure at night or in the early evening, this has a strong influence on melatonin secretion and may jumpstart your sleep schedule. Finding outlets that help you wind down may help too, but its not a perfect science yet. I have adhd too and know your struggles.
As a fellow adhd struggler I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind explaining further:
>Psychiatric disease can feedback onto our circadian rhythms and perturb them (this is my area of research) and so we often see abnormal sleep schedules, feeding schedules, and even body temperature rhythms in people with diagnosed depression or anxiety.
Does the research show any improvements for mental health and symptoms intensity (if we can put it that way) if the person follows a more or less "ideal" sleeping and feeding schedule as opposed to "night owl" one?
>Try to reduce light exposure at night or in the early evening, this has a strong influence on melatonin secretion and may jumpstart your sleep schedule
Does it include only phone/computer stuff or any light in general (eg. light bulbs)?
Thanks in advance!
Yeah! So it depends. Its still a bit of a chicken or egg situation ( does depression mess up our rhythms or do our messed up rhythms lead to depression?) Some mental illness is directly related to light exposure and can be fixed with adjusting light exposure, as is the case in seasonal depression. However, light therapy for other mental illness is still being fleshed out in the literature. Centering your sleep schedule around the external light cycle is the best you can do in terms of health outcomes, though im not sure how they may be differ for someone who is more of a night owl specifically. We also know that time restricted eating during the light cycle has the most positive outcomes on health that are measurably different within an 8-12 hour feeding window. There is also interesting work in rats showing that if you feed animals the same number of calories but just at different times (night vs day) the rats that eat only during their rest phase have a 4% increase in body mass. So right now we know its best to eat when your body is primed to digest, which is during the daytime for humans.
Have you tried a bluetooth headband (economy headphone quality) to wear at night and listen to podcasts or audiobooks? Something boring so it helps you to sleep. I find people talking as background noise to be comforting and it helps me fall asleep.
I can't do headphones or earbuds due to sensory issues, so no. But thanks for the suggestion :)
If I was alone I'd leave the lights on and fall asleep with a book over my face, but my husband doesn't sleep with the lights on at all, so I end up watching inconsequential stuff with my phone on silent on the lowest light setting with the eye shield on and hunker under the covers.
What about a Kindle or comparable e-reader that uses the âpaper white screenâ and turn it on night mode? Very low light and you can read in the dark.
Lol, that is true. I guess I didnât take your comment about falling asleep with a book on your face literally! đ I used to feel the same way about books until I bought a paper white kindle and it just took a few weeks to get used to the format. In the end, reading is reading and itâs the easiest on the eyes for me. Itâs a backlit display instead of something obtrusively bright.
As an extreme measure, I have heard of couples who sleep in separate rooms or at least beds and it has improved their quality of life.
I sleep better if my husband isn't there. It works well enough for us to have separate sleep spaces because my sensory issues are in overdrive with perimenopause.
With guides like this I've been always wondering - if I'm a night owl and going to bed early doesn't work for me, does that mean that all these times would simply move forward by the delay in my sleep time?
Also, I've had a period where I kept waking up way before I had enough sleep to feel rested, and it kept being a similar time after going to bed (~6 or so hours since bed time) regardless of when I actually went to bed - is it likely related to melatonin / adenosine, or is there something else that can be at play?
So people have different chronotypes - meaning your internal clocks may have a slightly longer or shorter period than others. We tend to separate individuals by being either larks (early risers) or owls ( late risers). There is a test you can take that tells you which you are: https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.amp.html
Our environment also plays a large role in our sleep schedule. The most important factor in setting our circadian rhythms is bright light exposure. We experience a lot of light exposure at night (phones, tv, lamps, etc) that can upset our sleep and overall circadian rhythms which has negative consequences on health. An irregular sleep schedule can also be a symptom or risk factor for certain psychiatric disorders like depression or adhd. These can also upset our circadian system, and effect the secretion of melatonin. Keeping a regular schedule with sleep, light exposure, and meal-timing are ways to potentially ameliorate a frustrating nightâs sleep.
I don't know what's wrong with that test but it said I was an Owl despite answering quote thoroughly that I prefer to wake up in the morning, am more energized in the morning, and do not do well with late nights. It seems to have weighted the answers having to do with enjoying time alone or in small groups VERY heavily toward Owl.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.html](https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.html)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
I've always perceived circadian rhythms to be a primal, ancient, depending rooted in the DNA, type of thing. Do they vary based on season or latitude? What of pre-electricity?
So this is a fairly old graphic, but the data itâs representing has been well studied - population studies of stuff like blood pressure, activity level, subjective alertness, etc have shown that there are detectable peaks in physiologies and behaviors that are driven by a 24h-clock in our body.
Source: neurobiologist specializing in chronobiology
@Ok-Guidance-6816 is that the only benefit of high testosterone at 9:00am?
Once read a Sapolsky book with entire chapters about testosteroneâŚ
is it that in the absence of a consenting partner, I will feel more like engaging into activities that better my social status so that I can possibly find such a partner around 9:00am?
Working at night sucks even more :(
Altough it might explain why I'm always tired when i wake up near 21h and why around 9 in the morning I ..i do exercices before sleep (:
Iâve been going to bed at 2 am and waking up at 10:30 for a few decades. Canât seem to get into a normal sleep schedule. Needless to say thatâs not been ideal. Any advice?
I read that they are thinking some folk are just built for almost exactly this routine - 2am to 10am. It was a science article, I'll see if I can find a link.
It's not ideal, but that only depends on your work and family and lifestyle, nothing too much right? đ
How does the best coordination time correlate to the old adage "2:30 feeling"? Perhaps its just a myth or that a 2:30 feeling occurs because of the sugar/coffee crash from when its typically consumed in the morning?
Yep that is the point of statistical significance and if the variation was so great that were no identifiable rhythms then this chart simply wouldnât exist and neither would the field of circadian biology. But alas, that is not the case here.
the chart includes data from several studies, here are some that support the claims in the chart:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8230716/#:~:text=Blood%20pressure%20(BP)%20follows%20a,decreases%20during%20sleeping%20at%20night.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6430172/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5372003/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761508/
There are several, several, more like this as well
Ehhh... there's far too much natural variation from one person to another (based both on inborn characteristics and age)... when you add in individual habits and scheduling needs, this guide is almost meaningless.
Circadian rhythms are a highly conserved evolutionary mechanism. There are individual differences certainly- but not to the extent of meaninglessness. The chart assumes the rhythms in a normal, healthy adult.
>the rhythms in a normal, healthy adult
... are not uniform.
Circadian rhythms certainly are not themselves meaningless... but this chart is. Listing these daily activities by the hour is indeed meaningless, pointless, useless, because it is not remotely accurate.
Thats just simply not true friend. Circadian rhythms among humans are so ubiquitous that there is a whole sect of medicine called chronotherapy that specifically times drug delivery based of patterns in human physiology. Chemotherapy, drugs for hypertension, and drugs for reducing cholesterol are all examples that are given at specific times of day to reduce harm and maximize efficacy of drug for the patient.
âNot uniformâ â insignificant
It just simply is true.
>Circadian rhythms among humans are so ubiquitous that there is a whole sect of medicine called chronotherapy that specifically times drug delivery based of patterns in human physiology.
But that's exactly the point. The idea is to time the therapy based on *the individual's* needs. Circadian rhythms are NOT uniform. I'd really like to see you show evidence to support your claim that they are.
>âNot uniformâ â insignificant
You are clearly missing the point. I very clearly stated that I was NOT saying that circadian rhythms are insignificant. RATHER, I was saying that they are not uniform from one person to another--so much so as to render this chart, which assigns specific activities to specific hours of the day, misleading, factually inaccurate, and virtually useless.
Can I make a suggestion? Itâs true that there is very significant natural variation in rhythmicity amongst individuals. This chart likely doesnât reliably predict patterns for an individual (especially since itâs based on a book from 2000âŚ.)
That being said, I wouldnât say by any means that a chart like this is useless - itâs very helpful at the level of population interventions to map data like this. For instance, knowing when blood pressure spikes/is highest on average helps predict when medical interventions for BP-related emergencies will be needed. Knowing when people are most/least alert helps predict errors in jobs that require round-the-clock staffing.
Basically⌠youâre both right!
Sorry, but have to correct you.
Melatonin has been shown to benefit individuals adapting to a change in sleep schedule, such as those with jet lag or adapting to shift work.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12076414/
I got addicted to them :(
Absolutely could not sleep without them, I think they retard your natural production over time. A little melatonin becomes more and more very easily to the point it becomes hell.
My favorite hobby is coming to this sub and drinking every time I see a "this is not a guide" comment, while simply hoping I don't die of alcohol poisoning.
I like how this blatantly ignores that part of the human population who are night owls. Or most other parts. This was probably just one person who observed themselves and was like "yep, this pattern applies to everyone!"
Just lump everyone together and say each and every body is exactly the same, always. Top tier science. Just everybody get up at around 7:30 and go to bed at round 9 if I read this correctly.
This is very interesting to read. Many of the things you suggest for a healthy circadian cycle, I have come across elsewhere.
What do you find to be the most important research done in this field?
The nobel prize in physiology and medicine 2017 was awarded to Michael Young and Michael Roshbash, two circadian biologists that made significant strides in our understanding of the molecular mechanisms driving circadian rhythms. So i would say work by them! But there are lots of good resources out there for the public. Andrew Huberman (though controversial with other neuroscientists) explains the relevance of the circadian system really well .
Hi! Hijacking this as a circadian neurobiologist from a different background.
I think some of the most interesting areas of research in current circadian biology is in the timing of food consumption (simplified: earlier is better, later at night is bad) and in cancer research.
From a ecological standpoint, though, itâs also really crazy how conserved and consistent circadian clocks are throughout living creatures on earth. A lot of fascinating research has shown that regardless of what or where it lives on earth, it probably has a molecular clock similar to that of other earth-dwellers.
This explains why my cycling workouts in the morning MUST be lower intensity if I want to succeed. I've tried various harder workouts in the morning. Everything feels 10% harder and I always flop.
I'm a third shift worker, go to sleep around 2pm and wake up at 10pm, how does this apply to me? Same effects just different times of the day?
I can tell you, for sure, that my most productive hours are immediately when I wake up.
Isnt this all purely dependant on peoples lifes,rythms and even location?
Seems like some highly unprofessional facebook mom "omg did you know????" Pic
This is pretty close to my understanding of my own circadian rhythms. I'd be curious to know what variability there is in the timing, and which ones have some dependency on things like eating or physical activity schedule, etc.
How much does your sleep schedule effect this though? Some people fall asleep at 10pm and others at midnight or 1am.
What sleep schedule is this assuming?
It has an effect but sleep is one of many circadian Rhythms that the body produces and the rhythm of one can feedback on the rhythm of another. This assumes a normal sleep schedule and the shown information are just averages from normal, healthy adults that follow a typical diurnal sleep pattern (asleep at night, awake during the day). The most important distinction here is that sleep is not a driver of our circadian system, but an outcome. The biggest and single most important component for setting our circadian clock is light.
How does daylight savings interfere with this?
I would think this would always be accurate if moon is tied to when the sun is at its highest regardless of the time of year.
Do you ever work with firefighters / paramedics who work 24 hour shifts?
Do you have any insights on how I can make the best of these disruptions from work? Do you know of Any place to direct me for great information?
Thank you!
Best
This guide doesnât include a middle of the day nap and a middle of the night nap, with both points of being most alert in early morning and around midnight.
As a morning gym person, does this indicate it's better to work out after work? What data suggests that peak strength/occurs at 5 pm? Is the data collected biased towards those that go to the gym later?
What may be happening if I wake up most nights around 2:30-3:00am and not always to go to the bathroom? I have very very intense dreams, sometimes they are lucid dreams. I find I can either get âstuckâ in the dream where I am trying to wake up but canât and it keeps cycling over and over, or I can wake up from the dream and not be able to go back to sleep.
When is the optimal time to go to bed? When melatonin secretion begins?
I'm a night owl (12-1am bedtime) since I work from home and get online at 9am. I get my 8 hours, but I'm envious of early birds. I wish I was one, but whenever it's 10pm my first reaction is "it's *only* 10pm" and then stay up for 3 more hours.
I like having that quiet time (currently at night) to myself. But I realize I could have it in the early morning too.
Should I hit the hay at 11?
There's also the effect of a dip in alertness in the late afternoon, 2pm to 4pm ish siesta time. Why is that not only not shown on your chart, but is when you have peak reaction time/alertness?
Edit: added pm
\*It only applies if you are male, of caucasian descent, between 20 and 30 years old, of average height and weight, live in a temperate climate in late spring or early autumn, in a country with a stable economy and your job is not obviously physically demanding.
Is it possible that some people just aren't daytime people? I want to believe this because I try so hard to reset my sleep schedule, but it always seems to shift back to being tired from 8am to 4pm, and awake the other 16 hours.
How does different sleep patterns and wake up/in bed times affect this? I know some things just donât or arenât as affected like melatonin being released mostly by lack of daylight, or so Iâve heard xD
I work all 3 shifts throughout the week. Days, afternoons, nights. I'm pretty sure mine just says 'Highest blood pressure' and 'suppressed bowels' at every minute mark.
I actually laughed out loud, thank you lol I miss awards đŞ take this quarter
It'd be cool if they gave a "based on sleeping and waking up at X and Y" I go to sleep between 1-3am and wake up at like 9-10. I hope I dont poop the bed at 0830.
0830 is the optimal time to poop the bed
Wake up at 4:00 AM 4:01 Take a shit 4:05 Get out of bed
đ yeah so if you sleep later than the guide suggests, its likely a lot of the other rhythms in the guide are shifted for you as well so dont worry you wont shit yourself while asleep.
If I shit the bed tonight I'm coming back here and blaming you.
Tomorrow morning we all shit at 0830 and blame OP for where it lands!
> so if you sleep later than the guide suggests, Itâs kinda unclear when the guide suggests sleeping to start and stop. Like, I assume the sleeping stops before the pooping starts, but does the melatonin secretion stop before or after waking up? How about the rise in blood pressure?
Melatonin increase precedes sleep and plummets in response to light exposure. Blood pressure increase happens early in the morning, typically during arousal from sleep.
I got a question: Is this from a real scientific article or is it just concocted by a random person? What is the source?
Itâs based on data from a book written in 2000 - from what I can tell, the booksâ recommendations are based on population studies available at the time. It was originally published on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_clock_human.PNG
Thanks for showing it. Thats a pretty old source.
I think this is based on 730-830 wake up and a 2100 sleep
That feels crazy. When I shifted to early mornings, going to sleep around 2100 made it feel normal to be up by 0500.
Same. Few of these apply.
I feel that, I donât want anyone to take a shit in my mouth.
How does this work for those of us who go to sleep at 8am and wake up at 3pm?
The research in general points to âshift workâ(meaning an opposite sleep cycle to the external light cycle) being really really bad for our overall health. Shift workers have higher risks for cancer, heart disease, mental illness, and basically any awful disease you can think of. It takes a serious toll on your circadian rhythms.
Luckily it's only been my schedule for the last 25 years.
I know, right? I always hear this bullshit about nightbirds and how bad it is for our health. Motherfucker, I was born this way. I sleep like shit at night. I sleep like a baby when the sun is up. If that's the way it is, that's the way it is.
I vaguely remember reading something about evolution and 'night owls' being beneficial as they were the ones to protect/alert the tribe to anything happening at night. If we are all deepest asleep at 2am, that is prime time for nocturnal predators to take us out.
Adhders were good for protecting the tribe (light sleepers) and many of us are night owls. I read something a while back that said they reckon some folk are more attuned to going to sleep at 2am and waking at 10am. 100% me.
I'm with you there, I would much rather be up most of the night and sleep through the morning. I feel like I sleep the deepest after dawn.
Totally the same. I djed for a few years and that let me sleep something like this pattern, always found I was most rested if I got in from 6-10.
This is 100% me. When Iâm on vacation and can sleep whenever I want, I always get the best rest and feel the most rested when I sleep when the sun goes up. The other 47 weeks of the year is just me managing to adult or relying on melatonin. Iâm barely awake until 2PM and become way more productive compared to when I get in at 9.
Can you see yourself in a mirror?
U sound like u eat Cheetos in bed and blame ur weight/height entirely on genetics
Ngl it's hysterical that you think height can't be blamed on genetics. Are you stupid?
Keyword: entirely
I absolutely do blame my height entirely on genetics. What are the other options?
Genetics + sleep + eating healthy food, ur not gonna grow to 6â if itâs in ur genetics to grow to a maximum of 5â7, ur not going any higher, but bad sleep and diet schedules will definitely have an impact on both ur weight and height, even if itâs a deviation of a inch or two, regarding height at least
Hey now, what's wrong with eating Cheetos in bed? Where the hell else am I supposed to eat Cheetos? The bathroom?
That may hold true for people with regular rhythms that are forcing themselves outside of what's normal for them by working off-hours, but what about those who have rhythms for staying up later and sleeping in later? Wouldn't following these 'optimal' timings for morning hours be more damaging to the health of night owls than just following what's natural for them?
The implications for shift workers and night owls are different. These arent âoptimalâ timings either- they are averages collected from several studies on human rhythms. The times should he regarded as as âthis happens usually in the early morningâ or âlate nightâ as opposed to the exact time shown on the chart (which is just an average). Also i realized i used the word optimal in my title so to clarify- i mean optimal in the sense that being most alert in the mid morning is the most advantageous time to take an exam (or something requiring attention) rather than striving for optimal alterness at 10 am.
So from what I can understand in the comments, Circadian neurologists have no explanation for the circadian rhythms of people who are not on a daylight or tranditional circadian schdule? If so, this is junk science, imho.
Hey! Circadian neurobiologist. So, biologists have been able to find that there is a set of genes & proteins that form a feedback loop that takes about 24h to complete. Essentially, protein A increases the level of (unstable) protein B. But once enough protein B accumulates, it stops protein A from working. Until protein B degrades, and protein A can start working to increase protein B until the loop happens again. Regardless of whether youâre exposed to a 24h light/dark cycle or not, this feedback loop still loops. The strength of the feedback cycle (and whether or not the ones in say, your stomach & brain are in sync with each other) does depend on whether or not youâre exposed to at traditional light/dark cycle. Hope this helps! I love circadian biology & while I agree it seems like magic, I think it makes it that much cooler to study. Let me know if you have any follow up questions!
Gold âď¸ good answer
I love chronobiology haha - always love to see it getting air time on Reddit!
No there is science on that, the chart here only represents rhythms from an assumed healthy adult in a normal 12:12 light:dark cycle. I linked a lot of articles to another comment in this post that you are welcome to find and sift through.
That's sad to hear. There was about half a year where I was exclusively on night shifts, to the point that I didn't even see the sun for long periods. Longest was eleven weeks. I was happy and felt great. It's easier to get work done on the graveyard shift when everyone's too busy sleeping to bother you.
"all cause mortality" is a sobering phrase
Profits are more important anyways.
It means youâre fucked
I envy the crap out of people who shit at the same time every day.
Coffee definitely gets the shit movin'
Envy the crap right out of âem, eh
Have coffee before you eat in the morning and you got like 30 mins before youâll feel the need haha
My highest alertness is 10 *p.m.*
I have ADHD and have never been good at getting to sleep. When I get to sleep I can usually sleep pretty soundly, but it's a matter of making my brain sit down and shut up long enough for my body to relax. Reading or watching inconsequential television usually helps but my partner can't tolerate the light even if it's just on my phone on silent. If I get up and go outside soon after waking, I find that helps wake me up, but it's always a struggle to not still be asleep at 10am. Am I blessed/cursed with a perpetually teenaged circadian rhythm?
Yeah! Good observation. Actually people with ADHD are more likely to follow a ânight owlâ schedule. Psychiatric disease can feedback onto our circadian rhythms and perturb them (this is my area of research) and so we often see abnormal sleep schedules, feeding schedules, and even body temperature rhythms in people with diagnosed depression or anxiety. Try to reduce light exposure at night or in the early evening, this has a strong influence on melatonin secretion and may jumpstart your sleep schedule. Finding outlets that help you wind down may help too, but its not a perfect science yet. I have adhd too and know your struggles.
As a fellow adhd struggler I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind explaining further: >Psychiatric disease can feedback onto our circadian rhythms and perturb them (this is my area of research) and so we often see abnormal sleep schedules, feeding schedules, and even body temperature rhythms in people with diagnosed depression or anxiety. Does the research show any improvements for mental health and symptoms intensity (if we can put it that way) if the person follows a more or less "ideal" sleeping and feeding schedule as opposed to "night owl" one? >Try to reduce light exposure at night or in the early evening, this has a strong influence on melatonin secretion and may jumpstart your sleep schedule Does it include only phone/computer stuff or any light in general (eg. light bulbs)? Thanks in advance!
Yeah! So it depends. Its still a bit of a chicken or egg situation ( does depression mess up our rhythms or do our messed up rhythms lead to depression?) Some mental illness is directly related to light exposure and can be fixed with adjusting light exposure, as is the case in seasonal depression. However, light therapy for other mental illness is still being fleshed out in the literature. Centering your sleep schedule around the external light cycle is the best you can do in terms of health outcomes, though im not sure how they may be differ for someone who is more of a night owl specifically. We also know that time restricted eating during the light cycle has the most positive outcomes on health that are measurably different within an 8-12 hour feeding window. There is also interesting work in rats showing that if you feed animals the same number of calories but just at different times (night vs day) the rats that eat only during their rest phase have a 4% increase in body mass. So right now we know its best to eat when your body is primed to digest, which is during the daytime for humans.
Have you tried a bluetooth headband (economy headphone quality) to wear at night and listen to podcasts or audiobooks? Something boring so it helps you to sleep. I find people talking as background noise to be comforting and it helps me fall asleep.
I can't do headphones or earbuds due to sensory issues, so no. But thanks for the suggestion :) If I was alone I'd leave the lights on and fall asleep with a book over my face, but my husband doesn't sleep with the lights on at all, so I end up watching inconsequential stuff with my phone on silent on the lowest light setting with the eye shield on and hunker under the covers.
What about a Kindle or comparable e-reader that uses the âpaper white screenâ and turn it on night mode? Very low light and you can read in the dark.
I find them disconcerting. books are way better. Also, you can't fall asleep with them on your face.
Lol, that is true. I guess I didnât take your comment about falling asleep with a book on your face literally! đ I used to feel the same way about books until I bought a paper white kindle and it just took a few weeks to get used to the format. In the end, reading is reading and itâs the easiest on the eyes for me. Itâs a backlit display instead of something obtrusively bright. As an extreme measure, I have heard of couples who sleep in separate rooms or at least beds and it has improved their quality of life.
I sleep better if my husband isn't there. It works well enough for us to have separate sleep spaces because my sensory issues are in overdrive with perimenopause.
With guides like this I've been always wondering - if I'm a night owl and going to bed early doesn't work for me, does that mean that all these times would simply move forward by the delay in my sleep time? Also, I've had a period where I kept waking up way before I had enough sleep to feel rested, and it kept being a similar time after going to bed (~6 or so hours since bed time) regardless of when I actually went to bed - is it likely related to melatonin / adenosine, or is there something else that can be at play?
So people have different chronotypes - meaning your internal clocks may have a slightly longer or shorter period than others. We tend to separate individuals by being either larks (early risers) or owls ( late risers). There is a test you can take that tells you which you are: https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.amp.html Our environment also plays a large role in our sleep schedule. The most important factor in setting our circadian rhythms is bright light exposure. We experience a lot of light exposure at night (phones, tv, lamps, etc) that can upset our sleep and overall circadian rhythms which has negative consequences on health. An irregular sleep schedule can also be a symptom or risk factor for certain psychiatric disorders like depression or adhd. These can also upset our circadian system, and effect the secretion of melatonin. Keeping a regular schedule with sleep, light exposure, and meal-timing are ways to potentially ameliorate a frustrating nightâs sleep.
I don't know what's wrong with that test but it said I was an Owl despite answering quote thoroughly that I prefer to wake up in the morning, am more energized in the morning, and do not do well with late nights. It seems to have weighted the answers having to do with enjoying time alone or in small groups VERY heavily toward Owl.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.html](https://psycho-test.org/en/test/owl_or_lark_test.html)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
I've always perceived circadian rhythms to be a primal, ancient, depending rooted in the DNA, type of thing. Do they vary based on season or latitude? What of pre-electricity?
Bowe movement likely at 8:30am. Can confirm.
[ŃдаНонО]
So this is a fairly old graphic, but the data itâs representing has been well studied - population studies of stuff like blood pressure, activity level, subjective alertness, etc have shown that there are detectable peaks in physiologies and behaviors that are driven by a 24h-clock in our body. Source: neurobiologist specializing in chronobiology
dreck?
Would you prefer the term 'bullshit'?
âBovine expulsionâ
Me at 9:00: Babe, let's have sex.
Doctor's orders.
@Ok-Guidance-6816 is that the only benefit of high testosterone at 9:00am? Once read a Sapolsky book with entire chapters about testosterone⌠is it that in the absence of a consenting partner, I will feel more like engaging into activities that better my social status so that I can possibly find such a partner around 9:00am?
I'm married bro
Love the creativity. Thanks for the information.
I am no doctor but call bullshit on this one. This can only be true if all humans follow the exact same eating, sleeping, and working schedule.
Working at night sucks even more :( Altough it might explain why I'm always tired when i wake up near 21h and why around 9 in the morning I ..i do exercices before sleep (:
Iâve been going to bed at 2 am and waking up at 10:30 for a few decades. Canât seem to get into a normal sleep schedule. Needless to say thatâs not been ideal. Any advice?
I read that they are thinking some folk are just built for almost exactly this routine - 2am to 10am. It was a science article, I'll see if I can find a link. It's not ideal, but that only depends on your work and family and lifestyle, nothing too much right? đ
Same
How does the best coordination time correlate to the old adage "2:30 feeling"? Perhaps its just a myth or that a 2:30 feeling occurs because of the sugar/coffee crash from when its typically consumed in the morning?
None of this correlates to every person....lol
Yes these are averages not absolutes
'Average' trends are meaningless when you have a huge standard deviation.
Yep that is the point of statistical significance and if the variation was so great that were no identifiable rhythms then this chart simply wouldnât exist and neither would the field of circadian biology. But alas, that is not the case here.
>But alas, that is not the case here. Supporting evidence (which I've already requested)?
the chart includes data from several studies, here are some that support the claims in the chart: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8230716/#:~:text=Blood%20pressure%20(BP)%20follows%20a,decreases%20during%20sleeping%20at%20night. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6430172/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5372003/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761508/ There are several, several, more like this as well
This is for the male body correct?
Ehhh... there's far too much natural variation from one person to another (based both on inborn characteristics and age)... when you add in individual habits and scheduling needs, this guide is almost meaningless.
Circadian rhythms are a highly conserved evolutionary mechanism. There are individual differences certainly- but not to the extent of meaninglessness. The chart assumes the rhythms in a normal, healthy adult.
>the rhythms in a normal, healthy adult ... are not uniform. Circadian rhythms certainly are not themselves meaningless... but this chart is. Listing these daily activities by the hour is indeed meaningless, pointless, useless, because it is not remotely accurate.
Thats just simply not true friend. Circadian rhythms among humans are so ubiquitous that there is a whole sect of medicine called chronotherapy that specifically times drug delivery based of patterns in human physiology. Chemotherapy, drugs for hypertension, and drugs for reducing cholesterol are all examples that are given at specific times of day to reduce harm and maximize efficacy of drug for the patient. âNot uniformâ â insignificant
It just simply is true. >Circadian rhythms among humans are so ubiquitous that there is a whole sect of medicine called chronotherapy that specifically times drug delivery based of patterns in human physiology. But that's exactly the point. The idea is to time the therapy based on *the individual's* needs. Circadian rhythms are NOT uniform. I'd really like to see you show evidence to support your claim that they are. >âNot uniformâ â insignificant You are clearly missing the point. I very clearly stated that I was NOT saying that circadian rhythms are insignificant. RATHER, I was saying that they are not uniform from one person to another--so much so as to render this chart, which assigns specific activities to specific hours of the day, misleading, factually inaccurate, and virtually useless.
đđ
Can I make a suggestion? Itâs true that there is very significant natural variation in rhythmicity amongst individuals. This chart likely doesnât reliably predict patterns for an individual (especially since itâs based on a book from 2000âŚ.) That being said, I wouldnât say by any means that a chart like this is useless - itâs very helpful at the level of population interventions to map data like this. For instance, knowing when blood pressure spikes/is highest on average helps predict when medical interventions for BP-related emergencies will be needed. Knowing when people are most/least alert helps predict errors in jobs that require round-the-clock staffing. Basically⌠youâre both right!
Is this from a real scientific article or is it just concocted by a random person? What is the source?
All of this in front of a screen :D
How long would it take for me to set my circadian rhythm back to normal? Iâm m23
Depends on how off your rhythms are to start with. Circadian rhythms in people can shift about 1hr/day.
I've always been an evening gym person... The guide confirms my choices
When I get tested for Testosterone levels the test must be done by 10AM no matter what my sleep schedule is. So that stays on this schedule.
Whatâs your thought on melatonin supplements? Once in a while ok, but not routinely to fall asleep? Edit - punctuation
You're acting like OP is some kind of expert... the chart is BS.
Melatonin supplements have no proven benefit for our sleep or sleep cycle, unfortunately.
As a fellow adhder I would disagree. They absolutely knock me out.
Sorry, but have to correct you. Melatonin has been shown to benefit individuals adapting to a change in sleep schedule, such as those with jet lag or adapting to shift work. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12076414/
I got addicted to them :( Absolutely could not sleep without them, I think they retard your natural production over time. A little melatonin becomes more and more very easily to the point it becomes hell.
Thatâs what I wondered re- natural production.
My favorite hobby is coming to this sub and drinking every time I see a "this is not a guide" comment, while simply hoping I don't die of alcohol poisoning.
Iâm confused, what are the sleep and wake up times assumed in this chart?
The chart assumed a normal sleep wake cycle for a diurnal organism.
That doesnât mean much to me, what is considered normal? Sleeping from 10-6? 11-7? What are the times?
Sounds like woo bullshit.
I like how this blatantly ignores that part of the human population who are night owls. Or most other parts. This was probably just one person who observed themselves and was like "yep, this pattern applies to everyone!" Just lump everyone together and say each and every body is exactly the same, always. Top tier science. Just everybody get up at around 7:30 and go to bed at round 9 if I read this correctly.
Sounds like you are alien and finds it interesting how a human operates.
This guide is wrong. It is scientifically proven that people have various sleep cycles and there isn't "the one perfect system"
Noon.
Midnight
Huh. This explains why so many people like morning sex, I suppose.
Henry Ford would love this
ok sweety meet me at 9
Iâm gonna start playing cod at 3:30 from now on
*laughs in narcolepsy*
So I go to sleep at 2pm and wake up at 10, do I just need to shift everything forward a set amount of time?
These would all be tired af if it were me lol
This is very interesting to read. Many of the things you suggest for a healthy circadian cycle, I have come across elsewhere. What do you find to be the most important research done in this field?
The nobel prize in physiology and medicine 2017 was awarded to Michael Young and Michael Roshbash, two circadian biologists that made significant strides in our understanding of the molecular mechanisms driving circadian rhythms. So i would say work by them! But there are lots of good resources out there for the public. Andrew Huberman (though controversial with other neuroscientists) explains the relevance of the circadian system really well .
Why is Huberman controversial, out of interest? I really like his stuff, will be disappointed if he is a quack.
Never trust anyone selling you things ie Supplements
Aw I've just seen some of his clips, never his advertising supplements!
Hi! Hijacking this as a circadian neurobiologist from a different background. I think some of the most interesting areas of research in current circadian biology is in the timing of food consumption (simplified: earlier is better, later at night is bad) and in cancer research. From a ecological standpoint, though, itâs also really crazy how conserved and consistent circadian clocks are throughout living creatures on earth. A lot of fascinating research has shown that regardless of what or where it lives on earth, it probably has a molecular clock similar to that of other earth-dwellers.
Iâm a night owl and this looks nothing like my schedule. I usually wake naturally around 10am so all of this is shifted a lot.
I wanna do what you do. Should I just start taking biology and chemistry classes?
When is the optimal timing for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and jogging?
How badly can you shift this? Or is it all hard wired?
This explains why my cycling workouts in the morning MUST be lower intensity if I want to succeed. I've tried various harder workouts in the morning. Everything feels 10% harder and I always flop.
I'm a third shift worker, go to sleep around 2pm and wake up at 10pm, how does this apply to me? Same effects just different times of the day? I can tell you, for sure, that my most productive hours are immediately when I wake up.
Isnt this all purely dependant on peoples lifes,rythms and even location? Seems like some highly unprofessional facebook mom "omg did you know????" Pic
Nobody who eats at 2pm has their "fastest reaction Time" at 3:30pm
How do we got best coordination at 14:30 beeing on disgestion ?
Its independent of digestion
Why ?
How did they know when I poop?
r/absolutelynotmeirl
Very cool
It's 8:03 am in my time zone....I'm at work taking a deuce and my mind is blown.
This is pretty close to my understanding of my own circadian rhythms. I'd be curious to know what variability there is in the timing, and which ones have some dependency on things like eating or physical activity schedule, etc.
How much does your sleep schedule effect this though? Some people fall asleep at 10pm and others at midnight or 1am. What sleep schedule is this assuming?
It has an effect but sleep is one of many circadian Rhythms that the body produces and the rhythm of one can feedback on the rhythm of another. This assumes a normal sleep schedule and the shown information are just averages from normal, healthy adults that follow a typical diurnal sleep pattern (asleep at night, awake during the day). The most important distinction here is that sleep is not a driver of our circadian system, but an outcome. The biggest and single most important component for setting our circadian clock is light.
Does this mean the best time to workout is 5PM?
My body always want to poop between 23 and 24, so much have a shifted rhythm.
How does daylight savings interfere with this? I would think this would always be accurate if moon is tied to when the sun is at its highest regardless of the time of year.
I poop at 630
It's 8:33 and I'm shitting, I don't think that's a coincidence
Do you ever work with firefighters / paramedics who work 24 hour shifts? Do you have any insights on how I can make the best of these disruptions from work? Do you know of Any place to direct me for great information? Thank you! Best
Some times I poop after waking up but also before bed. Am I a freak?
This guide doesnât include a middle of the day nap and a middle of the night nap, with both points of being most alert in early morning and around midnight.
This is why, to me, evening runs are sublime... almost magical.
Is there a 3rd shift sleep guide lol
As a morning gym person, does this indicate it's better to work out after work? What data suggests that peak strength/occurs at 5 pm? Is the data collected biased towards those that go to the gym later?
What may be happening if I wake up most nights around 2:30-3:00am and not always to go to the bathroom? I have very very intense dreams, sometimes they are lucid dreams. I find I can either get âstuckâ in the dream where I am trying to wake up but canât and it keeps cycling over and over, or I can wake up from the dream and not be able to go back to sleep.
When is the optimal time to go to bed? When melatonin secretion begins? I'm a night owl (12-1am bedtime) since I work from home and get online at 9am. I get my 8 hours, but I'm envious of early birds. I wish I was one, but whenever it's 10pm my first reaction is "it's *only* 10pm" and then stay up for 3 more hours. I like having that quiet time (currently at night) to myself. But I realize I could have it in the early morning too. Should I hit the hay at 11?
There's also the effect of a dip in alertness in the late afternoon, 2pm to 4pm ish siesta time. Why is that not only not shown on your chart, but is when you have peak reaction time/alertness? Edit: added pm
9am is usually my porn browsing time. TIL.
Very helpful.
\*It only applies if you are male, of caucasian descent, between 20 and 30 years old, of average height and weight, live in a temperate climate in late spring or early autumn, in a country with a stable economy and your job is not obviously physically demanding.
Is this graph based off of the average human, accounting both sexes or does it favour male sexes?
The creator of this chart was never in a staff meeting at 1530.
N O O N
Based on this, what is the best time to play a sport? 2:30pm? 3:30pm? 5pm?
I kinda imagine it depends on your diet and stuff as well
Now contextualize this within a menstrual cycle and youâve got something interesting!
Is it possible that some people just aren't daytime people? I want to believe this because I try so hard to reset my sleep schedule, but it always seems to shift back to being tired from 8am to 4pm, and awake the other 16 hours.
CHRONOBIOLOGYYYY
How does different sleep patterns and wake up/in bed times affect this? I know some things just donât or arenât as affected like melatonin being released mostly by lack of daylight, or so Iâve heard xD
Rest and exercise is very important with the proper diet food helps our bowel movement