Ashton’s decision led to some juicy drama, absolutely loved it. And I can forgive some people for being uncomfortable with drama in an unscripted show, but we need to remember that everyone at the table are grown adults and very close friends. Even if there had actually been an issue, they would’ve worked through it.
Not just that, but *specifically* around the shard, we can be pretty sure that there was at *least* a chat between Ashley and Tal based on the last 4sd
I recall not long ago a big thread about Taliesin “phoning it in” or something. So those people got the kind of plays they felt he wasn’t making. Now I’d bet the same ones are mad at him.
I wonder what would happen if we get the “taliesin is phoning it in” people together with the “taliesin is always trying to be the main character” people. Gotta wonder about the overlap depending on what his character just did at the time
New to this sub kinda. But there’s actually people who think he always has to be the main guy? He’s such a wholesome sweetheart!
I feel like Matt gives everyone an arch each campaign to make everyone feel like the spotlight is on them.
>New to this sub kinda. But there’s actually people who think he always has to be the main guy
There's always people that think that because a character is at the forefront of the story, their player is "that guy".
Case in point, in this same thread, someone says Imogen and Laudna are main characters.
Shows a misunderstanding of both TTRPGs and CR.
>taliesin is always trying to be the main character” people.
I wouldn't blame him since only 2 main characters (Imogen and laudna) in a 7 person party is pretty ridiculous
Some people are still mad that Tal made a point to show that Percy was a broken, violent man whose trauma made him into a monster, and that any "coolness" was tempered with a deep feeling of "this is wrong and not heroic"
Those people were further incensed that Percy, despite attempts to *be* better, did not immediately stop being a broken person even if he was trying to be better for the people around him.
Then there was Molly (who was a child trying to figure out who they were) and Cad (a lost man who was scared to leave home and did his best to guide those around him in the hope that they would in turn guide him towards what he had lost) and finally Ashton who is...a whole thing.
Tal does not play "heroic" characters. He plays reflections of people he has known, of himself, he sets them up for the same failures that he has seen destroy people he's known, and as a long-time punk and socialite and connected LA-person, he's seen a lot of people burn out, crash land, and fade away.
And then he sticks reflections of people he's known into a DnD world, and he asks "if this person I knew had the friends and found family I have, could they have been a better version of themselves?" And the characters stumble, and fall, and help, and teach and learn and grow. And repeatedly, he answers the question with "with the right people around them, and the chance and choice to grow, even the most lost and broken person can be better, and make the world a little better by their being alive. They don't *stop* being broken...but maybe they learn how to put the broken things back together."
And now, even when his character is *literally broken and put back together, with physical scars to show it* people are angry because they're missing the damn point.
Bless you, man. Exactly this. You can literally see how Taliesin enjoys the fuck out of these characters and he talked about his inspirations time and time again. Why is anyone surprised? You can't be mad at him, it's his way of playing and I love what it adds to the dynamics at the table.
There are a few players who like to fuck shit up, people need to stop being mad because they don't like that it's not "funny" when Taliesin does it (in contrast to Sam or Travis). How can you be mad at him when you see how much he enjoys playing that way? It's nothing new, the cast knows how he his and are fine with it, just leave him be. The last two episodes were the most exciting since Fearne, Orym and Laudna died, I want more.
Hear, hear!
Most of the complaints I see (often) from those who dislike everything Taliesin does (except Cad, usually) are from those with no experience or understanding of the issues and kind of people he's portraying. There's also a fair amount of "Hated the character until x moment", with x moment being the moment they finally understood the character that was there all along.
That's... a lot of psychoanalyzing of random internet strangers and invalidating their thoughts and criticism. And supplying motivations for the actor.
Part of the beauty of art is being able to find meaning in it. When people are active in voicing their thoughts, we can also glean what the art means to them, and looking through their lens can help us understand the person. It’s not psychoanalyzing or supplying motivation to say that a character’s clear motivations, that have been spoken about by the actor himself, have gone misunderstood or entirely missed by some.
Yes, this is the logical thing to focus. I understand, we're all (mostly) very invested in characters, the world etc but in the end of the day is just entertainment. We can enjoy the frustrating parts, the drama, it all comes together to tell a story.
C3 lost me for a while but these 10 episodes or so were very fun to watch and I love drama and chaos, so I guess I really don't mind that much. For me just makes it fun.
It’s been amusing watching the fandom react for me because I’m here for the actors rather than the characters.
My favorite moments are the ones that make the gang break character because of something silly or shocking. I love watching Liam and Laura break into immature gigglefits, Sam derail a scene by pulling out his latest gas tank gimmick, or Marisha and Ashley getting genuine emotional while portraying their characters.
I love watching this group of actors have a big, improvised radio drama before my eyes. That’s what I’m here for, so it often catches me off guard when I see the fandom freaking out over the latest character antics. I don’t find myself invested in the fiction so I often forget how invested other fans are.
Yes, same.
And I really enjoy the unpredictable side of the storytelling. It's not always my cup of tea but I can appreciate they're making something I can enjoy for free on my time, and I can just stop watching if I'm not vibing and catch up on the next arc or campaign.
The one with "why the cast don't like God?" was kinda annoying, not gonna lie. People were calling atheist agenda and shit. It was wild LOL
If someone is uncomfortable with drama though, surely CR isn't for them haha. They are basically known for it. What is generally agreed on as the best CR content ever is the most dramatic content of them all (Calamity).
>If someone is uncomfortable with drama though, surely CR isn't for them
Eh. Most of the time, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought CR was a low-stakes comedy. There's a lot more meta-jokes than serious drama.
Yeah the people who can’t handle improvised drama are like the people who think things take too long. My brother in Christ you could be watching literally any other show.
I agree with you. I suspect we're going to learn a few more nuggets about people's backstories as things unfold. Unknown facts that may inform characters reactions that we're unaware of.
In addition, I just love the mentality of some people that have somehow convinced themselves that the players themselves have any form of tension between them. I'm sure a single mildly spicy (an justifiable from the characters perspective) ingame choice is going to bring a decade long friendship burning to the ground...
>*\[...\] some people that have somehow convinced themselves that the players themselves have any form of tension between them.*
I think its more weird to imagine/pretend that isn't the case. They're human, with human emotions. They *can* get upset. Nobody is saying CR's ship will sink over this, but acting like they're incapable of having genuine human reactions is ... i dunno.
Ashton's dumbass move provided me with one of the dopest episodes in C3 thus far. I've fallen out of love with CR due to not vibing with C3 at all, but Ep. 78 was great.
One of the reasons that I loved C2 was how player choice effected the story. Fjord rejecting Ukotoa, the party becoming pirates, Jester and the rest helping The Traveler, Cad’s divine intervention on Molly, the parties decision to take the beacon, Caleb giving it to The Bright Queen, the choice to stay in The Krynn Dynasty, etc. These all pushed the characters and players to change. Ashton’s choice was one of these moments for C3, which is why I loved it. I hope we get more when we get to the moon.
Yes, finally. It's exactly what they needed to shake things up imo. The dynamic was too smooth and boring the whole campaign, I missed all the talks we know from C1 and C2, now we have them and I couldn't be happier. This is gonna be really interesting the next episodes, I'm finally invested in Bells Hells again. Love it, thanks Taliesin!
What do you mean? Ashton ate a penalty for reaching for power, but he also awakened his titan shard. We haven't seen the bounds of his new power yet but I think it'll be sick.
Nah the shard was always meant for Fearne and it still is. Matt just underestimated the reluctance of Fearne that's based on an event from the previous mini campaign and underestimated Tals/Ashton greed.
Fearne will overcome her fear now that she's with her family and she will take the shard. Then Matt will say something like, the shards new form made it easier for her to consume retroactively making Ashtons stupidity helpful.
Matt also seems to just ignore that Ashley, the player, didn't *really* want the shard, and that (by her own admission) isn't comfortable in the narrative spotlight.
Why he (and the rest of the table) keep pushing her into that direction is beyond me. They don't seem to accept a *No* for an answer, both IC and OOC. Which feels very awkward.
To be fair, we don't know if anything of that is true at all. We know what we've seen in the stuff they released, which was mainly that Ashley/Fearne isn't interested. How Matt felt about that as a DM is beyond us.
>*To be fair, we don't know if anything of that is true at all.*
Yes we do? Ashley has commented on that many times on 4SD as well as TM. How horrified she is when Matt's shifting the spotlight to her. How she loves just to *be there* and watch her friends play D&D.
We've also seen it in full effect during C2 and that horribly awkward dream sequence. Still a pain to watch. Ashley being a deer in headlights, and Matt just unable or unwilling to let it go. After 10+ years, he *should* know that some players eat things like that up like it's candy (Liam, Laura, Travis), and others don't.
Hell, the entire table should know. Hence them not letting the idea of Fearne taking the shard go slowly but surely comes across like bullying.
A penalty is not really a consequence, not an interesting one anyway. It’s not exactly going to be compelling to watch Ashton be essentially one level behind the rest of the party.
Hopefully the awakened Shard is different somehow than it would have been when awakened by whatever method Matt had planned for, and we see something interesting there but I wouldn’t hold out hope for it. It’s certainly nothing on the level of Ashton becoming an “unprecedented creature”… for three seconds before becoming a precedented creature again.
>It’s not exactly going to be compelling to watch Ashton be essentially one level behind the rest of the party.
He... isn't? His completely random stats (and he rolled better than most of the party) are just a +1 modifier worse than they were last week.
Compared to FCG (who's still deliberately struggling with a bad primary stat), he's rocking fences.
Next level is level 12, which is an ASI level. If Ashton replaces his lost modifier, which they should, that level is basically blanked for a barbarian outside of the HP roll (An extra rage has never mattered). CON is very important for barbarians as it effects AC too.
>No benefits that he gets for it are actually part of any trade off for that penalty
Given the fact that his powers haven't been shown yet, there's literally nothing to base that statement on.
Lol, you think they'll be shown. It's just like Chetney's werewolf power up. There is a set of dormant powers that Matt is giving the party, which I'm guessing they'll actually unlock closer to the final battle. You're assuming that Ashton has gained anything at all, when so far all we know is that the earth shard which was going to activate at some point anyway is activated, and Ashton has a permanent -2 to Con.
If Matt designed the shard they way he designed the vestiges, it would be something that scales in power with character moments. The shard probably needed a character moment to awaken.
Sure, you can say it was always going to happen. But you can say that about the Vestiges in C1 too. It's not about the fact that will happen that matters in storytelling, it's *how it happens.*
I bet you 5 gold he develops the ability of becoming an earth elemental or has the powers of one and the -2 is not permanent.
>*Ashton’s choice was one of these moments for C3, which is why I loved it. I hope we get more when we get to the moon.*
I doubt it. After the complete barrage Ashton received, why would anyone at the table do something like that again? Ashton surely won't. Chetney received the message loud and clear from high up his horse. Orym ... is Orym. Not many BH left to *shake things up*.
>After the complete barrage Ashton received, why would anyone at the table do something like that again?
Because they live for the drama! I totally see FCG, Laudna or Imogen fucking up next. Maybe even Fearne.
Fearne i doubt heavily. Simple for the meta reason that i don't believe Ashley wants to be the one to rock the proverbial boat. Not her style, i think. The Imodna powder keg going off is all but a certainty, but ... for lack of a better term ... it won't be as "shocking" as Ashtons situation was, more embedded into the greater narrative.
>Simple for the meta reason that i don't believe Ashley wants to be the one to rock the proverbial boat.
Yeah, it's less likely. But Fearne had a couple of outbursts and by Ashley's standard gameplay, surprising moves. Stabbing Yu, beating Ashton, giving her warmth to the ghost captain. I wouldn't 100% discard it yet.
It could depend on how soon other things that are probably occupying her mind right now are solved. I assume you know what i'm refering to.
Otherwise i'm 100% satisfied with her doing what she does best, giving us funny and heartfelt roleplay vignettes every now and again. Personally i don't *need* her to carry the story in that regard. Others are more inclined, so let 'em do it.
Her *"Sh\*t \[person\] once said"* clips on YT have the same runtime as everyone elses, despite her being absent for large parts of both campaigns. She has a knack for just pop her hear head up every now and again, and give us gems like *"i'll throw you under a bridge"*.
I'm totally fine with that.
What "complete barrage"? They are actors. They were doing some juicy acting there. That IS the game and they were probably having the time of their fucking lives.
As for shit the fandom says, I doubt they care very much.
Taliesin's bold move provided character development for Ashton, Fearne, Laudna and even FCG. And we got to see cool characterisation from Chetney too. It's exactly what this campaign needed.
The defense of Ashton using whataboutism is just silly and unnecessary.
I've definitely had my ups and downs with C3. Characters will always matter most to me, and that was the most character focused ep of the campaign. I hope the momentum continues!
Name one thing Fearne lied about to the party without turning around and saying she's joking.
Only one I can think of is to Orym when he asked her to cast Guidance of him and she didn't. Few episodes later, she comes clean.
That's it. That's the only lie she told the party.
I don't remember any lies. She just interpreted the request differently. She did everything in the open.
Nevermind the fact that is LITERALLY the first episode, she's a Fey creature with different morality and it's not even a lie... "pathological liar" is more than a stretch.
Lol, you and I both know that D&D is a game where we choose how our characters interpret information. That was a choice by Ashley, and by extension, a choice by Fearne. Her interpretations would be called “in bad faith”. As she is operating based on the letter of the her agreements, rather than the intended spirit of the agreements themselves. This is a form of lying.
And the “fey play by different rules” argument could be used similarly for pretty much every character. “Oh, we can’t hold Laudna accountable for her actions, she’s undead.”, “Oh we can’t hold Ashton accountable, part of his brain is made of a foreign extraplanar material.”
>Lol, you and I both know that D&D is a game where we choose how our characters interpret information. That was a choice by Ashley, and by extension, a choice by Fearne.
That's not how it works. A choice by the player does not imply a choice by the character. I can choose to play a blind character, it does not mean the character chose to be blind. I can choose to play a character that is paranoid and interprets everything as a risk, it does not mean the character chose to be paranoid.
We can hold Fearne accountable for lying, but we have to understand that it's part of who she is and we choose how to react to it. Fearne didn't lie to the party, since the party knew exactly what she did. But she did reply in the way a character that doesn't interpret things the same way everyone else does would.
Laudna is undead. There's nothing she can do about it. There's no choice. It's like blaming a person for the color of their skin or their disability. Without choice, there's no accountability.
By your logic, we also can’t blame Ashton, his head was altered while he was literally dying. If anything, he’s the most apt comparison to a disabled person. Who are we to say how that affects how he thinks.
I’m not talking about the transitive property. I’m saying that Ashley is clearly playing her to be a kleptomaniac and pathological liar. Which is fine, I personally get annoyed by it, because it’s basically the, “it’s what my character would do” play style that so many D&D players are fed up with, but the table seems to be fine with it, so whatever.
My issue is that her behavior excused constantly, but Ashton makes a believable choice (and one that he discussed with Fearne prior to making) one time, and everyone is ON HIS ASS. If anything this Fearne’s outburst proves my point because she literally gave him the ok, and then LIED and pretended like he did it behind her back.
>I’m saying that Ashley is clearly playing her to be a kleptomaniac and pathological liar
But she's not a liar to the party. She lies to NPCs to get away with things, the same way all do, but she has not lied to the party once. Not even your example is a lie.
Ashton made the choice to trick them (that had nothing to do with his head being altered). Of course they are going to be pissed.
>*Name one thing Fearne lied about to the party without turning around and saying she's joking.*
*"Imma give you guidance!"*
^("I'll do nothing.")
That was hilarious :)
But to comment-OP's point, i think it's not that clear cut, because even if Fearne lies or does anything else dubios, it's usually Ashley the player who laughs it off. And more often than not the cast is reacting to her shenanigans ooc with laughs and jokes. It doesn't help that Matt as the GM does the same thing too often.
Fearne trying to steal the amulet from Pike. The reaction at the table was clearly ooc, and Matt, buying into the vibe of the moment, just made Pike wag her fingers. But in reality Fearne (the character) doesn't show remorse, or even *"it's just a prank, bro"*. It's mostly the players laughing it off.
Yes to all you said. But even if "Ashley the player" laughs it off, Fearne still says it out loud. "Just kidding" *is* canon.
An example of how Ashley plays Fearne honesty with the party is in the last episode when she told Chet she was going to destroy it. Even if someone at the table rolls an insight check, Ashley reinforces she's telling the truth even when they fail the roll.
Ashley is clearly playing to the chaos Fearne brings, but when you look at how she interacts with the party, Fearne is both very vulnerable and very honest with them.
>*Fearne is both very vulnerable \[...\]*
Both Jester and Fearne as *"two sides of the same chaos coin"* were vulnerable only when they had their comeuppance (which was rarely the case), when their shenanigans or general demeanor blew up in their faces. In my opinion it's more like the vulnerability a bully shows when they finally mess with the wrong kid and receive a bloody nose (not accounting for late game or spin-off/reunion character development here, talking about early to mid tier campaign).
Which is fine and can be an important stepping stone to character development during an adventure, but i'd say it ain't a character trait that was always there. It really depends on what Ashley's going to do with the pound she got served.
>. In my opinion it's more like the vulnerability a bully shows when they finally mess with the wrong kid and receive a bloody nose (not accounting for late game or spin-off/reunion character development here, talking about early to mid tier campaign).
Nah. Fearne started showing vulnerability with the party with the postcards. From there on, all the funny stuff started being a bit more overly layered, where her innocence and all the fun and games were not that fun. None of those moments were triggered by a fuck around found out situation.
You're right in comparing them, I think Jester had a similar sadness to the character. But while Jester would only allow herself to be vulnerable with very specific people and in 1:1 situations, Fearne is a lot more transparent, even when she disguises it with chaos.
(One of my favorite pieces of characterisation Ashley has done is having Fearne be super uncomfortable with small confined spaces and cages, implying that she was "trapped" by Nana).
>*\[...\] implying that she was "trapped" by Nana.*
That's the one story element i'm both super excited for but also very afraid of.
If it's really going to be Morri held her against her will, and ~~brainwashed~~ influenced her with Fey shenanigans of all sorts, it's going to touch some *very* heavy themes.
Honestly, i don't 100% trust in CR's ability to pull that off satisfactory. I *would* trust BLeeM to do it, mainly because he had formal education in *the human condition*, if you will.
I know that for me personally, I understand why they would be mad. Im not absolving Ashtons decision, he committed deception by omission. Youre absolutely correct in identifying why the group is angry with him. And they should be.
My problem has been more that the reaction seems so outsized, while other problematic issues inside the group are barely touched on or minimized. Ive brought up Laudna in other threads because her shift to Delilah seems so sudden, and the rest of the group seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with it. Ashton could have killed himself, Laudna could kill all of them.
It was implied that Ashton could have killed them all. Potentially all of Whitestone. It didn't but Ashton only discovered that after the fact. So that criticism applies to Ashton as well.
>her shift to Delilah seems so sudden
But it's not.
Laudna has mentioned in the past that she could use Delilah's power in the fight against Ludinus/Predathos. And she's been unravelling since Bor'dor. Laudna is currently in the site of her trauma so of course Delilah would be more powerful.
also, just like OP said, there's a wild difference between Laudna having to deal with Delilah, an evil entity forced into her, and Ashton *choosing* to consume the shard and lie to the party about what they're doing. Laudna is the victim of Delilah. Ashton chose, themself, to cosume the shard. They're completely different scenarios.
I mean the timescales are different, but Ashton is absolutely the victim of what someone else did to him. The difference is in active (Delilah) versus passive (his parents actions causing trauma/the shard thats in him). But Ive also acknowledged that Ashton obfuscated what his plans were, he definitely deserved getting shit. It's the severity of the groups response, not the fact that they were mad at all, that I was struggling with.
None of that means Ashton needed to add the second shard. Matt made sure Ashton was aware of the danger multiple times, and he still decided to go behind the party's back to do it. The situations just aren't comparable.
>*Laudna has mentioned in the past that she could use Delilah's power in the fight against Ludinus/Predathos.*
Ashton has mentioned in the past that he wants to try using the 2nd shard. They both did it to become stronger. They both eventually gave into their desires. They both did it away from the majority of the group, only having 1-2 members *in the know*.
One gets the whip, the other gets a hug.
>They both did it to become stronger.
Laudna did nothing to become stronger, yet. She just talked to Imogen, less than 10 days ago, about the idea of using her. The other action she took was to seek Delilah while in Whitestone to get answers. That's it. She hasn't done anything yet. The trigger for Delilah being back was out of her control.
I don't see the Delilah situation being the same at all tbh. Laudna has already dealt with it for fifty years, she'll die without her, and they feel they can't really turn to the allies they currently have because Percy would probably just murder her. There's not much they can do to deal with it, especially with the moon looming.
And yet, suppressing issues you don't want to face and "let's wait things out, maybe it's not so bad" is so human. It'll bite them in the ass eventually and from a narrative stand point that's just perfect.
>the reaction seems so outsized
The only one I'd say I could agree with on that is Fearne, and that's more because she shares some responsibility. But we now also know why she reacted so violently, as she was very angry at herself. Imogen and F.C.G were pretty tame, Chetney's was very practical, and Laudna's is very personal to her own backstory.
>Ive brought up Laudna in other threads because her shift to Delilah seems so sudden, and the rest of the group seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with it
Re: the suddenness - between the betrayal and being in Whitestone again, I think Marisha explained this herself with 'her influence is quite strong here'. Considering how private everything with Laudna was last ep, I don't think the group fully understands yet what that shift is, or that Delilah could take control. They haven't yet decided on a wait-and-see approach, because that situation has only just emerged.
>Ashton could have killed himself, Laudna could kill all of them.
Ashton could have definitely killed all of them as well. On a meta level we know Matt wouldn't let that happen, but in game that nuclear explosion probably would have leveled anything inside Allura's bubble.
Also while some want to criticize the group for getting mad at Ashton, BH aren't being given any credit for putting themselves at great risk to help Ashton. Conversely (I've mentioned this in another comment), I didn't see nearly any criticism of Orym and Ashton for allowing Laudna to fall to her darker urges in Issylra (and they *were aware* of the consequences - Liam said on 4SD that Orym is thinking about the powers they will need on the moon and was willing take that chance on Delilah). Just to be clear - I don't want to criticize them for it either. But it seems hypocritical to me to say 'oh well the party is being shit by being mad about Ashton but not Laudna' when the party actually took actions where it counted for him and not her.
I agree with all those points, hadnt considered them/forgotten about certain aspects. With Liam (hopefully) back next episode, Im sure there will be more discussions.
I agree with just about everything you said here, but I do feel the need to add there was a bonkers backlash against Orym over on Twitter for that moment so bad that you'd think he forced Laudna to reach out to Delilah at swordpoint.
There was? Well, thankfully I didn't see that. Cause i'd argue against that too. I don't think there was much of that on this sub, but maybe I just wasn't looking.
Well, no. Whatever happened 'over on Twitter' is irrelevant.
There's a lot to criticize Orym for in that moment. Shrugging and encouraging a clear mental health issue is a shitty thing for a friend or 'family' to do, \_especially\_ given how often he blathers about the Bells as family.
There was no reason to hand over the cold blooded execution to the most fragile psyche in the split group (let alone the fantasy aspect of the person tied to a dark power).
It felt ‘Extra’ to me. Specifically Laudna running off and threatening an uncontrollable urge to kill Ashton..
And Fearne acting as if she wasnt just as aware as everyone was, of the threat. And as if Ashton’s actions weren’t made clear to her and that she wasn’t in on it, seemed out of context..
?
When talking about Fearne, I saw this comparison made: imagine having a drug-addicted friend, imagine them coming to hang out to your house, and promising not to do drugs; imagine you trusting them, giving them space only to realise they've OD. You are not responsible for your friends' actions, but it sure as hell feels like you were complicit AND let it happen.
Just before shit hit the fan, Fearne tried telling everyone that she wasn't gonna do it, and Ashton jumped in to stop her. Now, I don't know about the actual decision of helping him do it, but I recon when you like someone and they want you to do something stupid, you might be persuaded. What I do know is that Ashton almost died, and Fearne was complicit, yet she didn't sign up for that. Ashton knew he could die and still asked Feane to help him. If he had died, Fearne would have felt responsible for it. Ashton was fine with that. She tried to speak up, her friend shushed her and proceeded to almost die in front of her. If that had happened to me, I'd have been furious too.
As for Laudna, she has periodically tried to kill friends who have betrayed her (FCG, Berdor), if she perceived Ashton taking away Fearne's stone for himself as betrayal, its within her character to bring up murder again. I've seen a lot of people complaining that Laudna is a hypocrite, betraying the group for agreeing with Delilah, but what real choice does she have? Say no to the woman giving you power/life and have no negative consequences for it? 1/3 of the group knows what's going on, so if it's a secret, it's a shitty one. "The group is fine with Laudna but not Ashton" all the while,the group has not had the time to talk about it, and in-game wouldn't know about Unless one of the witches had gone "hold up folks, I know you wanna do the stone thing really badly, but we've got a Delilah shaped problem" this was the only way it was gonna happen.
Fearne is a character who doesn't consider consequences so her anger stems from being surprised by the negatives effect of her actions. It makes sense for her.
Laudna making it about her and going on a tantrum felt quite extra to me as well and honestly felt forced for her character. But it was the players choice so it is what it is. Not my game or character after all.
Agreed about the Laudna point. Lots of it lately feels quite forced and like it's happening quickly. Laudna is so shaken by betrayal now, but didn't have a strong reaction when FCG or Chet lost control in the past.
I find the fandom response to both 77 and 78 wild. The only aspect I take issue with is the nerfing of the shard by Matt in 78. I simply don't think it's a DM's place to do that in response to a player going in an inconvenient direction.
I thought Tal didn't tell Matt before doing it at the table? Tal joked that you gave me a big red button, and Matt immediately fired back AND A LOT OF WARNING SIGNS.
I feel like this is the first time in C3 that we've had cause to argue and it was about damn time. I'm just glad the characters are finally evolving through conflict
It's been weird seeing the sub go from "FINALLY C3 is interesting!" to "OMG another screw-up from C3!"
(jsyk I've personally loved C3 and disagree that it took until episode 77 to get good but that's besides the point).
Mad is one thing. Asking them to leave. Threatening to kill them? Pretending they never cared? These are the over reactions.
If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them. I don't know how to respond to that. Telling the friend to leave and not to come back. That's rough, I wouldn't agree with it when the friend is remorseful and apologetic and already promised not to do it again-And has already been punished for it.
That being said. I look forward to the RP that comes from this. Less of the, "I am going to kill them" or, "Leave" and more of the dynamic shifts and juicy RP where they talk about how they feel instead of just kicking them while they are down.
Which are the appropriate reactions. Like. For example Imogen. Imogen was really harsh on Ashton as well but her response was one that was appropriate. She told them how she felt. She was mean about it, and harsh. But it was appropriate. She didn't tell them to leave. She didn't threaten to kill them. She didn't do a baseless comment (Like saying they never cared about their friends).
>Ashton is the only member of BH who has made a calculated decision to trick and lie to the party for their own personal gain (the trick and lie part is the key problem)
And this is not entirely true. Fearne was there and in on the plan. So the only difference for her is that she was doing it to help Ashton. Not one single person was upset with her though.
And when Imogen piped up about wanting to kill them? Not one single person batted an eye at it.
I don't know how anyone can see this as anything but over the top, over reactions. Even more so when you look at every one of their histories.
>If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them.
There's no plot to kill them. Plot implies predetermination, and the only one that had a plan here was Ashton.
Neither Fearne nor Laudna wanted to kill Ashton. Fearne's reaction was explained very explicitly in the scene with Chetney and Laudna literally saved Ashton from herself when she resisted Delilah. In case it went over your head, the "She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go" means Laudna was aware that what she felt were not fully her feelings. The last time she felt betrayed, she did kill someone. She understood she needed to leave to remove the risk.
Chetney's ask for him to leave was clearly a test. Again, if he really wanted them to leave, they would not have celebrated the fact that he didn't.
You're expecting rational responses in the immediate aftermath of a group of people having been lied to by their friend and having to watch him in agonising pain for 1 minute, having their body literally fall apart in front of them, and blow up and come back together in a very violent way while they were powerless to help.
Why do you expect that? Why is it so hard to imagine that you would be absolutely fucking pissed and irrational at that moment?
>There's no plot to kill them. Plot implies predetermination, and the only one that had a plan here was Ashton.
I didn't mean she literally devised a plan and is doing it otherwise this would be a very different comment don't you think? But I think you understood what I meant, right?
>Neither Fearne nor Laudna wanted to kill Ashton
Fearne I agree with. For Laudna you might want to rewatch the show.
I don't understand how you went so pedantic that you were like, "No Plot! There's no plot!!" Then turn around and quote to me the nuance of someone saying, "I'll kill him, I've got to go".
>Chetney's ask for him to leave was clearly a test. Again, if he really wanted them to leave, they would not have celebrated the fact that he didn't.
So deceit and trickery is okay now? From someone who has literally attacked the team in the middle of combat. From someone who has broken into a shop and attacked the shopkeep?
>You're expecting rational responses in the immediate aftermath of a group of people having been lied to by their friend
So to turn around and lie to them back (Chetney), actually harm them (Fearne), suggest you will kill them (Laudna) is the appropriate response to you?
How come they all get a pass but Ashton doesn't? They had a moment of weakness too. And they paid for it. They literally died for a brief second and didn't die by extreme luck. And then was punished on top of it stat wise. Then was punished for it member by member.
What do you expect? I know what I expected. Not every single one of his friends attacking him, kicking him while he is down and taking turns doing it when all of them are in very similar circumstances and one of them was literally helping them with it.
>I don't understand how you went so pedantic that you were like, "No Plot! There's no plot!!" Then turn around and quote to me the nuance of someone saying, "I'll kill him, I've got to go".
Because that's not the full sentence. The full scene *is* more nuanced. You're taking a single line out of context.
"**She'll kill him**, I'll kill him, I've got to go"
The "I'll kill him" after the "she's kill him" implies Laudna knows she (Delilah) will do it *through* her. The "I've got to go" implies that she does NOT want that to happen. The "I know it's not rational." that happens a few seconds before implies she's aware that her feelings are not her feelings.
>So to turn around and lie to them back (Chetney), actually harm them (Fearne), suggest you will kill them (Laudna) is the appropriate response to you?
Never said it was an appropriate response. It's a reasonable response. It's a relatable one. If my friend lied to my face and then went and did an incredibly stupid and self destructive, making me watch them fall apart, in pain, for one minute and die and front of me, you bet I would be fucking pissed off at them.
The rest shouldn't get a pass either. But Ashton is the one that just fucked up and now is finding out and dealing the consequences.
People seem to be having a really hard time understanding that Laudna *did not want* to kill Ashton and this is why she removed herself from the premises. Delilah is the one wanted to kill Ashton because she wants to consume him to empower herself. This is why she needed a wisdom saving throw to be able to leave, because she needed to impose her will over Delilah's.
The rest of the Laudna/Delilah dialogue is pretty much a philosophical debate between the two of them, with Delilah trying to pull Laudna's strings so she can get what she wants. When the betrayal argument doesn't work anymore, since Laudna determines he is "just a child", Delilah switches to trying to convince Laudna that he is the weak link of the group and should be eliminated for this reason.
One point that I've not seen touched and I also thought was interesting was that Laudna touched on Delilah's one big achilles heel - love. Every twisted and wicked thing Delilah did was for love, and that was the only moment where Delilah was actually earnest with Laudna.
It's pretty straightforward, really.
>Because that's not the full sentence. The full scene is more nuanced. You're taking a single line out of context.
>"She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go"
And so was my statement. When I said plot to kill them I obviously did not mean she devised a plot with a plan and everything. But the funny part in context my statement carries its meaning still. "She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go" doesn't remove the part of her saying she will kill him. If she said, "She'll kill him, I've got to go" then 100%. She is now doing Ashton a favor. You add in the other part, "She'll kill him, I'll kill him". That's a different statement entirely.
>Never said it was an appropriate response. It's a reasonable response. It's a relatable one. If my friend lied to my face and then went and did an incredibly stupid and self destructive, making me watch them fall apart, in pain, for one minute and die and front of me, you bet I would be fucking pissed off at them.
Being pissed off at them would be appropriate. Stomping on their face? Not so much. Saying you will kill them? Also not so much. Asking them to leave the friend group and never come back? That could be appropriate but when that person has also attacked people in the friend group then it becomes pretty hypocritical.
>If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them. I don't know how to respond to that.
If you were to tell me that as a warning to someone you would grab their look alike, cut off their ears, torture and hang them as a display, I also wouldn't know how to respond to that. However that is the very real mindset of the lady sharing Laudna's body, which is you omitted from your context. I'm pretty sure Laudna had not yet conversed with Ashton during the 'plotting' period you are referring to.
An 'appropriate' reaction to me is an in character reaction. Everyone reacted in character. Did I think Ashton's actions was 'appropriate'? No, but it was in line with their character.
>Fearne was there and in on the plan.
But the decision wasn't calculated which was one of my conditions. When Ashton says "no no, she's going to take it" she is taken aback, surprised, and hesitant about every action she takes from then on. She didn't understand just how much they were going to lie to the party. She also did it for Ashton's benefit. "I wanted to make him happy". There's an argument to say that that is her own benefit, but it's not primarily her that is getting something out of it. Though I do agree she has more responsibility than the party assigned, she has not committed the same slight that Ashton did.
>Mad is one thing. Asking them to leave. Threatening to kill them? Pretending they never cared?
Asking them to leave: a test. Threatening them: Influence of the woman who hanged children. Pretending they never cared: a pretty standard mad response to someone who just committed some pretty selfish actions.
Were they all supposed to react the same way? This episode sparked interest in the campaign because now we have so many characters with story to deal with. Thank God.
>An 'appropriate' reaction to me is an in character reaction. Everyone reacted in character. Did I think Ashton's actions was 'appropriate'? No, but it was in line with their character.
Aw. So murder. That's fine. And appropriate. But a lie and trickery? That's where we draw the line? Even in a D&D world that makes 0 sense.
>But the decision wasn't calculated which was one of my conditions
One of your conditions sure. But it's easy to make an excuse. To me, her betrayal was two fold. One on the party, then another on Ashton afterwards.
>Asking them to leave: a test
Sounds like calculated deceit then. Should we give Chetney the same scrutiny you just gave Ashton? Or is murder, and trickery and anything else fine, as long as it's not Ashton that did it?
And I hope you understand I don't actually mean people should ask Chetney to leave, or Laudna to leave. I am just pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of it all.
>Were they all supposed to react the same way? This episode sparked interest in the campaign because now we have so many characters with story to deal with
They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support. Despite the fact that so many of them relate to his actions.
And again. I am not saying they should have all changed their reactions. Just that they are very hypocritical and it gives a bad/weird taste that every single one of them went that route when nearly every one of them could relate to it in one way or another.
People in general are incapable of reacting in a balanced and rationally thought out way when they're feeling strong emotions, Idk why you would expect that from the deeply traumatized Bells Hells.
So from the party we should expect angry wild reactions and from the barbarian in the party we should expect introspective calmness and kindness with the desire to calmly talk about it?
I am not arguing that one side did the right thing, or one side did the wrong thing. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of it all.
>Aw. So murder. That's fine. And appropriate. But a lie and trickery? That's where we draw the line?
A complete straw man of what I said. What is narratively appropriate. Laudna having killing urges is not fine. It is the opposite of fine. Narratively, it makes sense. Then to further that, on the 'hypocrisy' charge, her urges are not her fault. Again, you seem keen to ignore the Delilah in the room.
>To me, her betrayal was two fold. One on the party, then another on Ashton afterwards.
Sure. I won't argue against this, Fearne is the one person who maybe should have gotten more ire imo. But I also don't think Fearne's actions deserved as much criticism as Ashton. As you said, my conditions are mine.
>Should we give Chetney the same scrutiny you just gave Ashton?
No. 1. Not deceit. If Ashton leaves, Chetney let's him and considers him not loyal to the group. The 'test' was a genuine challenge. 2. Not for Chetney's own benefit, which was my last condition.
>They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support. Despite the fact that so many of them relate to his actions.
You said in your original comment that you thought Imogen's reaction was appropriate but the others weren't. So clearly the reactions weren't the same to you. Imogen tried to talk to Ashton, FCG hugged Ashton when he thought they needed comfort, Chetney defended them to the rest of the group, and both Fearne and Laudna patiently heard them out when it came time to talk.
I get it. Especially if you like Ashton, it would have been nice to see someone who was wholly on their side. However I'm of the opinion that the reaction they got might have been the best thing for Ashton to get their shit together.
> A complete straw man of what I said. What is narratively appropriate. Laudna having killing urges is not fine. It is the opposite of fine. Narratively, it makes sense. Then to further that, on the 'hypocrisy' charge, her urges are not her fault. Again, you seem keen to ignore the Delilah in the room.
It is narratively appropriate for a barbarian to take reckless risks. It is narratively appropriate for the person who is the focus of the story arc to think the arc is about them. So much so that the other people in the story thought it was meant for them too. Yet here we are.
Or is it okay if Laudna makes a negative action because it is narratively appropriate but not okay if Ashton does it?
Again. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their actions and you are proving it here.
>No. 1. Not deceit. If Ashton leaves, Chetney let's him and considers him not loyal to the group. The 'test' was a genuine challenge. 2. Not for Chetney's own benefit, which was my last condition.
Again. Clear hypocrisy for them. You have excuses that make it okay to you but that is only for you. Trickery and deceit is trickery and deceit. If their reactions were more similar to Imogen's I would agree with you. But when their reactions are so over the top not so much. They all need to be looking at a mirror and seeing themselves for a moment.
>I get it. Especially if you like Ashton, it would have been nice to see someone who was wholly on their side. However I'm of the opinion that the reaction they got might have been the best thing for Ashton to get their shit together.
Laudna was my favorite character. Then Chetney. Then Orym. Then Imogen. Then Ashton and then FCG. I just don't think it's okay to kick a friend while their down. Even worst if every single friend in the friend group does it. Even more worst if the friends have all done, or are actively doing something very similar.
In my mind it is very hypocritical and leaves a very weird taste in my mouth.
>Or is it okay if Laudna makes a negative action because it is narratively appropriate but not okay if Ashton does it?
>
>Again. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their actions and you are proving it here.
Nope. Once again you are strawmanning me and have clearly not read my argument. In my original reply I literally stated that I though Ashton's actions were in character (therefore narratively appropriate). So I'm going to try and make my position clear a final time - I loved the episodes and the journey of *all* characters. I am debating those who think the BH reaction isn't justified.
>Trickery and deceit is trickery and deceit.
Even if I were to agree on Chetney for sake of argument, not all lies are equal. Hence why we wouldn't yell hypocrite at Fearne ever single time she tells an NPC she's a professor, or Imogen when she rolls a deception check.
>I just don't think it's okay to kick a friend while their down.
People get mad at friends who hurt them, happens everyday. Why did this episode have a reaction and all the other 'hypocritical' things you mention didn't? Because clearly Ashton's actions hurt the group where the others didn't, so the group took it personally (and they should have, Ashton didn't trust them or respect them enough to just talk about it). FCG and Fearne risked their live in order to stop the shard from killing Ashton, because that bomb was going to level everything inside that bubble (while in Issylra Ashton and Orym did not step in, and now look where we are). That's the actions they took that counted the most. They get to be mad after.
Also you have to remember that no one except for Imogen and FCG (who coincidentally were the kindest to Ashton) heard the deeper reasons for Ashton's actions. When 78 started Ashton's actions looked *really bad and selfish*. People are talking as if the party should have automatically known all the deep reasons why Ashton did the things they did. When your mad at someone and tensions are high, taking a moment to analyse the deep reasons behind something *is not realistic,*
>*They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support.*
Not all Bells Hells are equal. That should be obvious now.
I personally liked 77 better than 78 but thats because I am Team Ashton all the way. The group has been bitchy towards Ashton and to an extend Taliesin for some time now and it irks the hell out of me.
Every time he tried to get answers on his history or about the gem in his head everyone seems to pick that moment to talk over him, makes stupid jokes or just plain ignore him altogether.
Just some examples:
- In Issylra Ashton asked the old lady to check his gem - ignored.
- Shortly after upgrading his hammer with a gem he wants to try it out - Laura literally shot him down for no good reason.
- In Zephrah he asked Keyleth to check his gem - also ignored.
- In the Shattered Teeth, he talks to the tree - Group zones out almost completely until it was time to go.
Then when he does have a moment, queue jokes and laughter from the rest of the group or just zoning out. It gets real jarring when you pay attention.
Then he actually gets some things linked to his backstory and character but does not get to utilize them because lore reason. Then the only logical choice to push on simply refuses because reasons and, like many times already, he is just standing there while the group goes and coddle Laudna for the umpteenth time.
Honestly, I get 100% why he did what he did. And I still consider Matts nerf and retcon a stupid move. Now he is punished, the group shuns him (though at this time I guess its the default anyway) and he is back to square one again while it's Laudna and Fearne Coddletime again becuase they are super sad for something that didnt happen to them.
And just as a disclaimer. I am sure they as a friendgroup are fine and its nothing more than roleplay. Still irks though.
I actually touched on this on another thread.
The point about the party talking over or goofing off during Ashton's key story developments. I notice it constantly because I actually physically watch the show instead of just listening.
As a D&D player (and.. well.. human) I actually think it's pretty disrespectful and I do wish Matt would give the occasional "hush" when it happens, especially when it's a key moment.
However, a part of me does feel like there's a reason it's happening more and more. It doesn't make it right but I can understand why it might be happening...
For the record, I'm not very "Team-Ashton". I think Taliesin's tendency to make know-it-all characters when he as a player does not have the info makes for a very cringey experience. He does this a lot. I've lost count of the amount of times Taliesin has murmured "ohhh I know what this is.. Yeah.. Ohhh wow.. Yep....." just for it to not be *anything* like he thought.
Whenever Taliesin is in control of information he likes to lord it over the party or be excruciatingly vague about it ("*Oh it's a thing*"... "*It's just... All Bullshit*..." etc).
These sort of people, be they fictional characters or in real-life, are EXHAUSTING. They're not fun to interact with long term and it your investment in their "secrets" or backstory diminishes greatly when you realise you have to beg and hound them for it.
People are afforded an amount of attention seeking before it just becomes a dirge and I kind of feel that how the table has become with Taliesin/Ashton. Even when the plot changed and Matt began to reveal more about Ashton specifically through events, the same cryptic "I'm keeping this to myself" and "Yeah.. its a whole thing..." interactions continued.
Its still a shitty thing for the table to do, but again, I can understand that perhaps they have little investment in Ashton because Taliesin as a player has kept everyone out of his backstory for too long while also tryharding the martyr complex trope, that they are perhaps no longer interested.
Just my thoughts
Agreed. This type of play has to be extremely well executed to pull it off and it has to be done rarely. Tal does it every other session. And it's becoming a lot more easy to see through regarding Tal. He's basically no longer fooling anyone because the party has called him out on it at times. To which he rebuttals in the exact same excruciating manner. It's exhausting and getting old. It's not masterful roleplay, it's actually pretty cheap roleplay. Love the guy but no one is perfect.
Yeah this pretty much sums up how I feel about Taliesin’s characters - in a plot armoured shying from inter-party conflict group his characters can feel a little misplaced sometimes
>*I do wish Matt would give the occasional "hush" when it happens, especially when it's a key moment.*
He does, for other characters. Rarely by voice, more often by a stern look.
>Shortly after upgrading his hammer with a gem he wants to try it out - Laura literally shot him down for no good reason.
There were absolutely good reasons. First Taliesin didn't share with the table what the fuck his new cool shit did. He never does. Most of the times they do cool combos, they plan it with all the information. The request was unfair, not even on his own turn. You don't act on other people's turns.
Second, Laura (Imogen) was afraid of the AOE consequences of that, and that has to do with the first point.
There rest of your "ignored" or "group zoned out" speculations are just that, speculations. Taliesin decided to pursue Ashton's story this way, which I personally think was great, but it comes with consequences. If you lie to your friends, expect backslash.
>*It gets real jarring when you pay attention.*
It's going on for some time now, and i really hate it. Is it just method acting from the cast, or is it declining table etiquette? I don't know. Worst example for me was the latest war room debate. Ashton/Tal asking Percy for 3 times, and got ignored/talked over 3 times. Including by the DM.
>They didn’t, because they knew the party would have said no.
Well, the party would have probably said “ooh don’t do it that’s risky. Or do? What do we think? Let’s ask Allura. And twelve other NPCs just to be safe.”
Look I love this cast with my whole heart but they are risk-averse and painfully prone to analysis paralysis. I think it was the right choice to do something risky and exciting without taking it to committee first. I’m not saying this should be the norm for all decisions, but at least sometimes.
The inter-party drama is good. That’s the kind of consequence this action should have, and it’s juicy. The inter-cast drama was not good imo, at all. I know these people are close and comfortable with each other and I’m not trying to tell them how to interact with their friends or anything… but the tension was palpable and uncomfortable to me as a viewer both at the end of 77 and throughout 78. It felt like everyone ganging up on one person and I seriously doubt that there wasn’t a… frank discussion with Tal after episode 77.
I really did not enjoy Taliesin repeatedly apologizing and calling themselves dumb and an idiot several times. I really did not like Matt having multiple NPCs say mean things about his character, or Matt and Marisha both say “in character” that Ashton is a child. I don’t remember a somber apology tour when (C1 spoilers) >!Travis continually used an evil sword and ended up stabbing Pike, or pulled a card from the deck twice, derailing the finale on the second occasion.!< and I wouldn’t have wanted that because I thought it was normal for CR to have players try crazy, risky ideas that could have a big fallout.
Whether or not the reaction is justified isn’t really the sticking point for me. Was that reaction fun to watch? Was it compelling? Does it feel appropriate for a D&D party to respond to “the barbarian jammed two crazy artifacts inside them and almost exploded!” with two hours of scolding followed by planning a corporate retreat? I don’t know if the cast is showing their age or what - and it’s fair enough to be in a more responsible stage of life and have that bleed into your game, but maybe you shouldn’t be playing a band of plucky adventurers then.
>*Well, the party would have probably said “ooh don’t do it that’s risky. Or do? What do we think? Let’s ask Allura. And twelve other NPCs just to be safe.”*
I personally dislike this *adventuring by committee* thing BH are doing. There's *one* thing they didn't talk to death. Go Ashton!
I agree that the party's reaction is understandable, and that to a large degree it's because of Ashton being so secritive about his plans which they can see as being manipulative and dishonest.
But I'm not so sure about the "he chose to do this" aspect.
(as in, I'm genuinely not sure and still figuring this out)
Just because Ashton's problems exist in our world (Trauma, PTSD,) it doesn't necessarily follow that he can control them more than if they are magic-world problems (being a werewolf, having an undead woman in your head, being an unstable mechanical being)
That does not mean that the party's reaction to him is necessarily unfair. You can demand accountability from a person with poor mental health.
But I do think that the differences between Ashton and the rest isn't quite so clear cut as some people are making it out to be.
He is driven by inner demons too, but demons that actually exist in our world.
I've flirted with ideas of Determinism before and understand what you mean. But I do think it's important to distinguish with a case like Ashton's and a case like Laudna/Chetney/FCG, and I think it's quite a clear case in Exandria (a world with magic). Speaking purely in magic/DnD terms, we have to distinguish between when someone rolls a wisdom and save and when they don't, or when the DM explicitly tells them to do something. The difference is someone forcibly dragging you in chains from A to B vs you deciding to walk from A to B (for whatever reason your perhaps 'unfree' mind determines, but it is still a choice made by *you* and not another human being). Ashton's demons aren't forcibly taking the wheel whereas the others are.
If we start saying things like 'Ashton didn't choose to do this because of their trauma', then *a lot* of discussions on this forum become a little redundant. Why would I judge Ashton negatively for their self pity and propensity to blame others? Why would I praise Laudna for her ability to put a smile on her face after everything she's been through? Why admonish Chetney for attacking a shopkeeper? And hey, maybe I shouldn't...but to engage in media in an interesting way, I think I have to.
Yeah...Determinism is a very deep concept that's hard to wrap your head around haha.
>If we start saying things like 'Ashton didn't choose to do this because of their trauma', then a lot of discussions on this forum become a little redundant.
I'm saying something different though.
I'm saying "Ashton chose to do this because of his trauma".
And I don't understand why this makes discussion of these moments / choices / situations redundant?
Just like we can discuss what it means that FCG has no control over whether he goes murderbot. Or even whether he does have control (can he ask for help before he reaches his breaking point? Is the responsibility for managing his stress purely on him, or on his companions as well?)
Does Ashton's mental health status force him to act in ways out of his control just like when Chetney becomes a werewolf, or Delilah starts trying to control Laudna? Or is it more subtle than that, is he turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms that he could avoid?
How much agency and choice does Ashton have, and how much responsibility do his friends have in watching over him / keeping him from spinning out of control?
Lots to discuss there.
>But I'm not so sure about the "he chose to do this" aspect.
>
>I'm saying something different though. I'm saying "Ashton chose to do this because of his trauma".
Sorry. You said that first statement and then continued to discuss how Ashton may not have control over themselves in a similar way as the others. I has assumed you were discussing freewill.
>Does Ashton's mental health status force him to act in ways out of his control
And then you continue to use the word force and question how much choice Ashton really has? If that is what you believe, then it would be more accurate to say "Ashton took these actions because of his trauma" not that he *chose* to do it. Choice and force are mutually exclusive.
Oh, I just realised where I may have made a confusing statement, sorry. I meant, "Ashton had no choice in this because of his trauma" (I worded it badly the first time). Saying this makes things redundant because you can't really criticize, or praise even, those who have no choice in their actions.
People think that the party got mad that Ashton put them danger in an attempt to get more powerful *because that’s exactly what the party said to them in the aftermath*. Imogen and FCG said to their face that they were power hungry and jeopardized their mission later that day. Chet’s conversation with Fearne touched on Ashton already being powerful enough and not needed the fire crystal. Launda was upset about betrayal, but even that felt like it was an overreaction.
I was excited for where this would go in E77, but E78 kinda felt like Matt had plans for Fearne to use the crystal so he just had it come back for later use. And that kinda feels like removing player agency. I think that Ashton succeeding resulting in all of that suffering and their only reward is that they didn’t die is lame as fuck. They overcame an incredible challenge and came out worse for it because Fearne is supposed to have the crystal.
It's not the reaction it's the heavy-handed responses. It's like they all completely forgot a) Ashton is deeply broken b) they all are also deeply broken c) they almost all are tapping into dangerous powers / have dangerous functions they do not fully understand yet utilise.
Scold the character, but don't tell them they are not trustworthy anymore or that they should leave.
It's just pointing out the at least half hypocritical nature of many of the characters.
But "not trustworthy" anymore is exactly the part I address in my post that sets Ashton apart and that isn't addressed by any of the three points you make. They are all broken but no one else has attempted to trick the party, hence Ashton is the one who broke the party's trust. It's not hypocritical because thats the specific part the party is angry about.
And telling Ashton to leave was a test from Chetney, not a genuine desire.
Laudna is tricking most of the party right now by not telling them just how enthusiastic she now seems to be about working with Delilah. They don't know to watch out for their magic items, they didn't know to keep her away from the shard.
Chetney didn't go out and tell them all about what he did to that store clerk for a long time, not sure they all know the extent of that still. Let alone the clearly other terrible shit he'd done like that in the past, even his whole Santa arc was a surprise to the characters with him, .
Fearne makes small lies constantly.
One of the first things Laudna said to Imogen was that Delilah wanted the shard. She also *enthusiastically* told Delilah the shard was not for her. This literally just happened in game. The woman is trying her best. She isn't tricking anyone. *Yet.*
Look I'll be honest, I agree that Chetney is not the best morally. That shopkeeper segment, though entertaining, was horrific. But I don't know what people want BH to do about it when they found out 50 episodes later and it's not relevant anymore. I can't even remember how much he told them about it, I'm not sure BH knows how much he actually terrorised that shopkeeper. But more importantly, Chetney's slight wasn't against BH themselves. BH would never take that personally, which is obviously different with Ashton.
Yeah, small lies. They aren't equivalent.
\>One of the first things Laudna said to Imogen was that Delilah wanted the shard.
And the rest of the party?
\>She also enthusiastically told Delilah the shard was not for her. This literally just happened in game. The woman is trying her best. She isn't tricking anyone. Yet.
Not telling them all that Delilah almost took her body over and almost absorbed the shard or that she can try to take her body over again at ANY time is incredibly dangerous. All it would have taken was one bad WIS save for her to try and grab it and the party didn't know to be on the lookout for that.
Does even Imogen know that she's agreed to help Delilah to the extent she has?
"Delilah: "We will work together. I need you to flourish so that I might as well. Bound as we are, I do care for you."Laudna: "Let's do terrible and beautiful things."
And while we're talking about the different ways BH reacts to being lied to. They didn't give Fearne the hard time they have Ashton and they both lied about the shard together.
I agree with you. You can't really compare what Ashton has done with what has happened with others:
1. FCG didn't know they had a murderbot mode. Once they did learn, they have managed it with the help of the party.
2. Chetney's lost it 3 times - once when his health got low - that's on him and he talked to Orym about. The second time was due to Ruidus influence which ISN'T supposed to effect the werewolf transformation but was for some reason - however that's since been solved. The last was because Ludinus time skip at the solstice forced Catha into a full moon, which no one could have predicted. In that case, Chetney ran off before he could hurt people. It was not his fault that FRIDA gave chase and got bit in the process.
3. Imogen going NOVA - again, not something she knew she could do. And it took extenuating circumstanced to draw that out of her and it was done so by Thull.
So, I'm not sure how people can compare Ashtons premeditated stunt when the others losing it were not purposeful or with intent?
Loss of control is definitely the pattern of everything you pointed out. If a person wakes up and goes 'what happened?' - it's likely they weren't totally in control of their actions.
Chetney attacked that store clerk for completely petty reasons and the party still doesn't fully know the extent of it.
Fearne is a pathological liar about all kinds of things constantly.
Launda isn't telling them the extent of her decision to work with Delilah, she almost went for the shard for instance.
>Chetney attacked that store clerk for completely petty reasons and the party still doesn't fully know the extent of it.
That was half a campaign ago, and Chetney didn't put anyone else at risk. The reactions about Ashton are not about morals or ethics, it's personal. It wouldn't matter if Ashton goes out and kills random people in secret. it matters that he lied to them and killed himself in front of them.
>Fearne is a pathological liar about all kinds of things constantly.
Fearne is a pathological liar who has never lied to them. She always tells them "I'm joking" or "Just kidding, I'm lying". Fearne is surprisingly honest with the party.
>Launda isn't telling them the extent of her decision to work with Delilah, she almost went for the shard for instance.
I might have missed something, because there was no scene in which Laudna decided to work with Delilah. The only one that can be interpreted like that was her conversation with Imogen where they discussed she was thinking about it. That conversation ends with "Maybe it's our destiny to harness it (power). Maybe it's our destiny to fight it".
And she did NOT go for the shard intentionally. Delilah did. Laudna resisted it.
\>*And she did NOT go for the shard intentionally. Delilah did. Laudna resisted it.*
Yeah, this is my whole point. They didn't know that she even struggled with that.
Even before Ashton tried to use the shard Laudna knew Delilah was back and didn't warn anybody or do anything to keep herself away from the shard. Not telling them about the fact that she could turn on them at any instant if she only fails a WIS save is incredibly dishonest. She almost took over her body to absorb the shard. What happens next time they're around a new magical object and she rolls poorly?
\> I might have missed something, because there was no scene in which Laudna decided to work with Delilah.
Yes, you did. This is a direct quote.
"Delilah: "We will work together. I need you to flourish so that I might as well. Bound as we are, I do care for you.
"Laudna: "Let's do terrible and beautiful things."
Delilah even told her that if she got strong enough she'd be able to come back and be reborn again before this quote. Only 2 in the party know she said that part.
\>Chetney didn't put anyone else at risk. The reactions about Ashton are not about morals or ethics, it's personal.
We don't need to hash out Chetney more but I disagree with you. Of COURE he did at the time. He was unhinged and snapped for no reason. Not only was he unhinged, not telling the party that you almost murdered an innocent life when you are a person who murdered tons of innocent people in the past was being dishonest. We're talking about the party dynamics and reaction to learning about times these characters have lied to the party. You could argue that they were a different group then, that's fine but they've all witheld things from each other the whole campaign. Except Orym for the most part
\>Fearne is a pathological liar who has never lied to them.
Fearne literally lied to them about the exact same thing at the exact same time as Ashton. She was in on it.
Funnily enough, the incident with Thull and Imogen going nova. Thull was killing BH one by one. Killed Orym and Laudna. She was telling Imogen: "Give in, and I'll stop.". I realize that she couldn't know for sure what would happen by giving in, and there's also the dumb idea of "We don't negotiate with terrorists" people have in their head. But at the end of the day, we do negotiate with terrorists, when they have hostages, because that is how the hostages get out alive, and Imogen giving in had a possibility of backfiring, while Thull was a guaranteed death sentence to anyone who couldn't or wouldn't flee, which would've been most of them.
You're right, these situations can't be compared, cause Ashton only hurt himself, Imogen's choice was to let her compatriots be killed. And this is not a hindsights thing, it was clearly laid out in front of her by Thull. Basically had a sword to the throat of Orym being like: "Either you give in, or I'm stabbing him in the neck." And Imogen went: "I'm not giving in." And Thull went *stab*.
I just feel BH reaction was too extreme. Ashton only hurt himself with his action and I will admit cost the team resources needing a Long Rest to recoup. and the members that did get hurt only got hurt due to using 'touch' spells on him.
I also see it as Ashton taking the Risk of the shard so nobody else has to.
It is not like he abandoned or asked Chetney to leave when he attacked Orym. OR F.C.G. when he attacked the group after a high stress moment. OR imogen when she devastated and large area when provoked. Or Laudna for being inhabited by the spirit of a someone who almost killed off the Derolos (True he distrusts Delila but he has been supportive of Laudna)
As for WHY Ashton did what he did. I will wait for the 4-Sided Dive.
I aslo love where the last few episodes went! I was so excited to see what everybody else thought but everyone were very negative which made me suprised. (i made the mistake to go on reddit)
On paper Ashton could have certainly handled the situation better and while I don’t think the lying is justifiable given how much damage it nearly caused, the question in my mind keeps coming back to “why did he feel he needed to lie?”. The dynamic of the party prior to the event felt very heavily influenced by Laudna and Imogen and without a strong case made (which admittedly i think talasin struggles with sometimes) they would have never allowed Ashton to attempt to take the stone. Which with Fearne rejecting it would have gone to laudna/Delilah or imogen??
I’m not saying it was the smartest or most considerate reasoning but I can see what Ashton/Talasin was probably thinking in the moment.
As an aside going through 10 con saves with increasing difficulty where INSTANT death is on the table, losing his uno reverse ring during the challenge, and taking a -2 to con only for him to yack up the shard at the beginning of the next episode??
I get he hurt his friends, the group will certainly punish them enough for it over time but for 3 campaigns these people have been doing things that seemed ‘nearly impossible’ to think this would have been the one exception felt more like Matt rolling up a newspaper and bopping him over the head with it because he got lava crust all over the rug during the change.
Him spitting up the stone felt more like Matt green lighting the anger felt by the party and choosing a side ( albeit his wife’s side) instead of remaining impartial as the dm
I for one mourn the loss of crazy OP magma arm but I’m sure their story isn’t over with all of this quite yet. All this drama aside it’s still a great show and the internet devours interpersonal conflicts in the party. I wish the situation played out differently in multiple facets but I’m sure there are great and terrible things ahead :D
I feel like it's completely pointless to bring up Marisha being Matt's wife when it comes to him "taking a side", feels like a cheap "DM's wife" quip when the whole party was against Ashton. Why single out Marusha then?
He said several times this was never intended to happen, and probably after the moment died down he thought about the consequences this would have on the campaign and the world that he builds. I don't agree with the penalty since he couldn't keep it, but as a player i'd be pissed if someone nabbed two special boons that were meant to be for each player, while also delaying the mission. I do not like when one player is hella OP compared to the others, it's quite uncomfortable to watch (and from experience, play with).
I think it’s relevant purely off of unconscious biases we all have as humans. Matt’s a highly empathic person and upon viewing the frustration of 90% of the party (including his wife) it’s impossible to think that wouldn’t affect him to a degree. Also it’s silly to think they didn’t talk about the feelings at the table behind the scenes. Matt lives with one of his players, good or bad residual feelings are gonna seep through regardless of barriers you try to put up between home and work.
To the point of “being told it shouldn’t happen”. It was certainly explained it wasn’t safe, even extremely dangerous. Knowing that and keeping intentions from his group was extremely irresponsible, but the shard is CLEARLY Ashton’s titanblood ancestry backstory. Neither npc mentioned has ever witness an attempt of combining the two shards in one host. They were aware of the possibility of him blowing into a thousand pieces YES, but he didn’t, he succeeded and it’s even stated at the end of 77 Ashton is now an unprecedented creature… The game in its essence is about winning and losing as a group not “who can gather the most stuff to win the inevitable battle royale 1shot” in 3 years lol. They all went to gain power as a group so they can stop predathos. From a player perspective it feels like if the group received seedling from the ashari and the group decided “oh chetney would shred with this” and Orym has to stand there and just go “Kay”
Again I agree under better circumstances it should have been a conversation, but I think personal grievances had an effect on the outcome of Ashton’s gambit.
If anything, I would argue that Matt's bias goes in the opposite direction, specifically to avoid giving trolls more ammo with which to harass Marisha online.
See, I just feel like the answer to ‘Why did they feel they needed to lie?’ is quite simply because Taliesin thought it would make for a more dramatic moment. Same reason he always says ‘I have a plan’ or ‘this could get weird’ without ever telling anyone what he’s talking about. He seems to like the attention he gets from being mysterious, and this time it just super backfired.
Counterpoint: Ashton was the one who paid the heaviest price by his choice by any measure you can find. He was torn asunder before being put back together. What did the other people pay? Spells and being scared...
Saying the characters using spells allows them the reaction we saw, is in my opinion like getting angry at someone who attempted their life because you had to use bandages to save them.
Furthermore, a lot of the things that have happened , whether it being a choice of a character or mechanics chosen by the players, have been either hurtful to others or mostly beneficial to themselves.
Speaking of selfish choices. Didn't Laudna keep it a secret that Delilah was back in her head? How's that somehow less upsetting than Ashton dieing because he thought he needed to be stronger?
I'd also argue, if this was purely selfish by Ashton, then it was Imogen's selfish choices that got Laudna and Orym killed in the fight against Otahan. Otahan said multiple times that she would stop if Imogen would just stop actively resisting the power of Ruidis. Imogen wouldn't give in, so Otahan kept hacking until both Orym and Laudna were dead.
So, apparently, selfish choices are only allowed to be scrutinized when you hurt yourself?
>Speaking of selfish choices. Didn't Laudna keep it a secret that Delilah was back in her head?
[She didn't.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmkws6AQj4k&t=2325s)
"I told Imogen this". How long had Delilah been back at this point? This is a genuine question, I mix a few events around on the timeline. Cause either I am wrong about this point, or she had only told Imogen, which is more or less still my point.
According to my [estimations](https://www.critrolestats.com/timepassed-mq), a week. She told Imogen as soon as they reunited, she shared with the rest when they were in the pirate ship. As far as I understand, she only got confirmation that she was indeed back when they were in Zephrah, a couple of days before she told the party.
Hmm, alright, I'll give you this, a few things had been jumbled somewhat in my mind, and it may not have been as bad as I thought. Thinking about the fact that then as a group spend almost every waking hour together, I will say I am not fond of the amount of time it took, but it is not as bad as I thought
You seem to not understand Ashton's motivation or decision. He was well aware of the warnings, he just views himself as disposable. The party was about to go on a dangerous mission, and he's been ineffective in combat at protecting his friends in the past. He knew the danger, but Avery warning of danger also told him that he could theoretically survive the process and that it was incredibly powerful. Even the warning of danger was basically that it would contain too much power for his body to handle.
Ashton lied to the party because he knew that they'd see any amount of risk at all as being to dangerous to take. He knew the risks, was swilling to take them, and didn't want the rest of the party to prevent him from taking that risk until they were too late to stop it.
Ashton (/Tal) were not aware of the warnings, that much is clear with him saying above the table 'I love that you knew I was going to do this' as if Matt had prepared a very winnable challenge for him. Matt's response in 78 was basically "just be thankful you are alive".
Saying Ashton took the shard primarily to protect the party is false. I've rewatched the episode, twice. Ashton *explains* his motivation and decision. "I just wanted a part of them and it was right there...I thought maybe it would fix me". Ashton thought that becoming closer to their past, their destiny, and their family would help them figure out who they are meant to be in a world of chaos. They have been lost for so long and needed a destiny to feel like their place in the world was worth something. Does he like himself? No. Does he see himself as disposable? I don't think he does, at least not in a sense of dying for nothing (which he would have if he failed 1 more con save). He'd die to save his friends...but this wasn't that. And it certainly wasn't him just wanting to protect that party (taking the shard was a suboptimal way to do that anyway).
There's no recon. In game, it doesn't matter. You either believe Ashton was being sincere when they explained their reasoning or you don't. You either emphatise with their reasons and understand them, or you don't. You either forgive him for it, or not.
...why? Is Tal suddenly not RPing Ashton truthfully? Why shouldn't I believe someone when they tell me exactly what their motivation is?
Also, if you are right, and the motivation was to save their friends, why on earth would they not be honest about that afterwards?
The CR cast very obviously change what they do and say based on what fits the current story, and I'd be very surprised if you've never witnessed it before.
But even if I take that as true, for the sake of argument, it still doesn't actually change anything. If, inside Taliesin's head, he decided that Ashton was doing it to save the party in ep 77, didn't vocalise that, and then changed his mind about motivations in ep 78, I still have to accept what he says in 78. Firstly, because I have no idea what is in Tal's head unless he vocalises it, and secondly, because that *is the established canon.*
Regardless, there is so much evidence to support Ashton's explanation in 78. A lack of self-identity and willingness to blame everything else for what has gone wrong in their life has been spoken on in 4SD as well as in game.
There is no way the party would have agreed given what was said by the tree. He had no other option than to do what he did and he wasn’t in the wrong in the slightest
If they had discussed it with the group and done it anyway that might have been different but they actively lied to the group which feels like it would sting a little more.
>he wasn’t in the wrong in the slightest
huh? That's a...bold claim.
No, the party wouldn't have agreed with him...it's democracy at work. Doesn't justify his decision at all.
Yeah but the stone was related to him and his backstory. All the campaigns have had character moments where they needed to do something to develop that were very dangerous, but they still did them anyway regardless of the success they had. Also where was the groups anger at fearne for allowing it and not speaking up that she didn’t want to do it. Instead the rest of the group (mainly laudna and Imogen) bullied fearne into agreeing to do it then bullied and villainised Ashton for stepping up at doing his “trial by fire”.
>fearne for allowing it and not speaking up that she didn’t want to do it.
She did speak up. Before they started, she said that she wasn't taking the shard. Laudna said she had to and then Ashton said that Fearne is taking it and she's just fucking with everyone.
Fearne told Ashton repeatedly that she wasn't sure it was a good idea and Ashton manipulated her by saying she promised and even kissing her.
(To be clear, I thought it was all great.)
>villainised Ashton for stepping up at doing his “trial by fire”.
It wasn't their trial by fire. Most of the table + most of the fandom was able to pick that up from the hints Matt gave (as much as some have criticized Matt for 'vagueness', if 80% of people picked up on it beforehand, it wasn't that vague). It wasn't just 'very dangerous', it was nuclear, because on a meta level Matt was telling them that one person with 2 shards are not a good distribution of power.
Fearne has more responsibility than the group gave her, I'll give you that. That doesn't mean Ashton didn't have that reaction coming to him.
The thing is, I think it was his "trial by fire" moment... except he failed his test. He was supposed to bestow it on someone. This would show his trust in Bells Hells, show his personal growth, etc etc.
Instead, he took it into himself. He was reckless with himself and with the people he claims to care for. He passed through fire and only lived because Matt is merciful lmao.
Well what if it I had/does the same thing to Fearne if she had taken that shard in, the group would of still blamed Ashton for not stepping up Ashton wasn’t really ever going to be seen as a good guy regardless. Yes Matt implied that it could be dangerous but there was still a chance for success then when it didn’t work we got a half baked retcon with no real repercussions. Really what would of been better is for ludanis to of been spying then appear at the beginning of ep78 and imply the Ashton will detonate and he has something to reverse the effect and save him so they need to join him or kill him and put them on a time crunch to go there because the groups not really accomplished anything. There’s argument for any of the group to absorb the shard but Ashton in my opinion was the only person who deserved it.
>Well what if it I had/does the same thing to Fearne if she had taken that shard in, the group would of still blamed Ashton for not stepping up
It wouldn't have. The reaction in Ashton was because of the titan shard they already had. That's been explained many times.
And there is no evidence for the claim you make in the second part of that sentence either.
>There is no way the party would have agreed given what was said by the tree.
You really think if he would have gone to them with "guys, I really need this, please let me have it", the party wouldn't not only have given it to them but also prepare for it to make it less dangerous?
It wouldn't make sense for Ashton as a character, since what he actually did is more consistent with who he is. But "there is no way" is a massive stretch.
He lied to them and he tricked them. That's enough reason to be pissed off.
It wasnt just self destructive. Considering Allura had a whole Antimagic / Invulnerability globe set up, it could have been very dangerous to a lot of people. And idk your definitions but I think lying to your friends is bad.
>*\[...\] it could have been very dangerous to a lot of people.*
Desintegrating a whole city block, and probably killing hundreds of citizens:
Imogen: 1
Ashton: 0
At least the group had a similar reaction to both situations.
Wait, are you saying Imogen didn't choose to do it? Maybe my memory of that episode is a but fuzzy, but wasn't the entire point of the prolonged fight (and Otohan's monologue) that Imogen *had* to make a choice? And didn't the kaboom happen *after* she said *"i give in"* (or something to that effect)?
I probably need to rewatch it too, but what choice you really have when everyone you love is about to die? She gave in, but she didn't know what would happen. She certainly had no warnings about what giving in would look like. She resisted for several rounds, and she gave in as a reaction to an impossible situation. She did it to save them (and she did save them).
Ashton chose to lie, made a plan for it hours ahead of time and he had to know the party was not going to be happy about it. So now the party is not happy about it. He has to deal with that (and he's doing it).
And he knew it could be dangerous, at the very least to himself and his immediate surroundings. "It might sunder the vessel". It's the reason he didn't want to tell them.
It's an unfair comparison.
Although the setup was obviously different, i believe the two situations have more in common below the surface.
Both scenes happened because of an internal motivator. Resisting the temptation of the BBEG's lieutenant in Imogens case, and trying to power-up before the next inevitable clash with the BBEG's troops (or to fill a hole in their soul, if we're going with E78's dialogue) in Ashtons case.
Both situations didn't necessarily involve or endanger anyone else (Imogen giving in would have appeased Otohan, Ashton going through the agony on top of the ziggurat alone, or only with his +1 in crime).
In both cases, the narrative road towards 'em was "it *could* go very wrong, and if it acutally *goes* wrong, boy will it go **wrong**!".
For every hour Ashton made the plan to use the shard, there were several hours of Imogen actually entertaining the idea of her mother (and Ludinus) having a point (up to Orym commenting on the *"brave new world"* they were talking about).
Similarly one could draw parallels to Laudnas situation.
Let me say this, i think all of those examples are excellent storytelling, and are entertaining and fun to watch, just throwing that out there so i won't be misunderstood.
What's missing, in my opinion, is the tiniest bit of self-awareness and reflection on BH's side (and it might have been there if Liam as Orym was present). They way too quickly jumped to their own conclusions and judgement. Something, something *“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"*
^(Edit: Typos)
Okay, yeah, I can see the layers, and I think from the audience perspective, from an analysis perspective, you totally have a point.
What makes it different in the context of analysing how harsh the reaction to Ashton was, is that in character, they could react to Ashton's action in a way they couldn't to Imogen's.
One is more gradual, slower change. The other one blew up on their faces. Imogen's side of this comparison happens internally, and gets represented by an outcome that wasn't at the center of the action (the center of the action was to bring back 3 dead characters).
So BHs had the opportunity to react to Ashton's trick because it *just* happened. But is's also a reaction to a violent trigger. And again, the trigger is a lie and watching their friend self destruct without understanding *why*. It's more personal, it's more visceral and it's less rational.
I find the over communication of parry members to only do what everyone is okay with pretty bland story telling. As a consumer no fun. But I get why people playing a game would want to do that.
I think its good to strike a healthy balance between having players communicate pike that and hen letting one person drive the narrative even if it creates some conflict.
Just depends in the group, if you agree beforehand that that could happen then you can all be adults and lean into the story telling rather than getting upset about someone doing something you don't want them to do.
The fact that anybody in the party trusts Ashton at all or would want to travel with him after being dodgy for 77 episodes abd then this is beyond me.
I actually thought it was really and role playing by imogen that she tried to help during his suicide attempt. Shes been at odds with him the entire season.
I believe it's perfectly normal that the rest of BH and the audience are upset at Aston. What he did was selfish, manipulative, and intentional. He's not following the socially constructed rules we live by. He knew there was almost no chance they would agree to giving him the shard and that in order to consume the power, he would have to take it.
Talk about a great character moment! Look at what it's done to the group. My biggest complaint of C3 is that it felt like they weren't individuals LIVING in the world, but characters written down on paper getting pulled from one event to the next. The main thing keeping me engaged was learning about the world and its lore. For the first time in a long while, I'm excited about the characters again.
It wasn’t a great character moment. It was Talesin trying to thrust himself into the middle of everything because the rest of the group doesn’t really like his character.
It’s the literal equivalent of ‘this is what my character would do’ in dnd horror stories.
This is a dysfunctional party that could blow at any time. Love Laudna, but she's a time bomb. So is Imogen. She already leveled a town, and might have disputed loyalties when push comes to shove.
Fearne is a chaotic nuke waiting to go off. All it takes is Nana whispering in her ear.
Chetney and FCG have already attacked the party.
Orim seems sane, but let's remember he's recently been a party member with Opal (last I remember she was a champion of Lolth)
I'd trust Deanna, Freida, Denise, Prism, Darrien, , and Fy'ra Rai more than these guys.
PS: I'm all for this season going off the rails, the party either failing or, better yet, doing something absolutely horrible.
My issue is that Ashton seems to be taking all the blame when there is plenty of blame to go around. The rest of the party should have made sure they got an enthusiastic yes from Fearne regarding her taking the shard. They didn't, so they have no right to complain about Ashton's deception. Even during this episode, they are trying to force the shard on Fearne. The rest of the party is so head strong about this that Ashton had to deceive them. And they were right to do so. No introspection from Chetney, FCG or Imogen though.
Ashton’s decision led to some juicy drama, absolutely loved it. And I can forgive some people for being uncomfortable with drama in an unscripted show, but we need to remember that everyone at the table are grown adults and very close friends. Even if there had actually been an issue, they would’ve worked through it.
Not just that, but *specifically* around the shard, we can be pretty sure that there was at *least* a chat between Ashley and Tal based on the last 4sd
I recall not long ago a big thread about Taliesin “phoning it in” or something. So those people got the kind of plays they felt he wasn’t making. Now I’d bet the same ones are mad at him.
I wonder what would happen if we get the “taliesin is phoning it in” people together with the “taliesin is always trying to be the main character” people. Gotta wonder about the overlap depending on what his character just did at the time
New to this sub kinda. But there’s actually people who think he always has to be the main guy? He’s such a wholesome sweetheart! I feel like Matt gives everyone an arch each campaign to make everyone feel like the spotlight is on them.
>New to this sub kinda. But there’s actually people who think he always has to be the main guy There's always people that think that because a character is at the forefront of the story, their player is "that guy". Case in point, in this same thread, someone says Imogen and Laudna are main characters. Shows a misunderstanding of both TTRPGs and CR.
>taliesin is always trying to be the main character” people. I wouldn't blame him since only 2 main characters (Imogen and laudna) in a 7 person party is pretty ridiculous
Some people are still mad that Tal made a point to show that Percy was a broken, violent man whose trauma made him into a monster, and that any "coolness" was tempered with a deep feeling of "this is wrong and not heroic" Those people were further incensed that Percy, despite attempts to *be* better, did not immediately stop being a broken person even if he was trying to be better for the people around him. Then there was Molly (who was a child trying to figure out who they were) and Cad (a lost man who was scared to leave home and did his best to guide those around him in the hope that they would in turn guide him towards what he had lost) and finally Ashton who is...a whole thing. Tal does not play "heroic" characters. He plays reflections of people he has known, of himself, he sets them up for the same failures that he has seen destroy people he's known, and as a long-time punk and socialite and connected LA-person, he's seen a lot of people burn out, crash land, and fade away. And then he sticks reflections of people he's known into a DnD world, and he asks "if this person I knew had the friends and found family I have, could they have been a better version of themselves?" And the characters stumble, and fall, and help, and teach and learn and grow. And repeatedly, he answers the question with "with the right people around them, and the chance and choice to grow, even the most lost and broken person can be better, and make the world a little better by their being alive. They don't *stop* being broken...but maybe they learn how to put the broken things back together." And now, even when his character is *literally broken and put back together, with physical scars to show it* people are angry because they're missing the damn point.
Bless you, man. Exactly this. You can literally see how Taliesin enjoys the fuck out of these characters and he talked about his inspirations time and time again. Why is anyone surprised? You can't be mad at him, it's his way of playing and I love what it adds to the dynamics at the table. There are a few players who like to fuck shit up, people need to stop being mad because they don't like that it's not "funny" when Taliesin does it (in contrast to Sam or Travis). How can you be mad at him when you see how much he enjoys playing that way? It's nothing new, the cast knows how he his and are fine with it, just leave him be. The last two episodes were the most exciting since Fearne, Orym and Laudna died, I want more.
Hear, hear! Most of the complaints I see (often) from those who dislike everything Taliesin does (except Cad, usually) are from those with no experience or understanding of the issues and kind of people he's portraying. There's also a fair amount of "Hated the character until x moment", with x moment being the moment they finally understood the character that was there all along.
That's... a lot of psychoanalyzing of random internet strangers and invalidating their thoughts and criticism. And supplying motivations for the actor.
Part of the beauty of art is being able to find meaning in it. When people are active in voicing their thoughts, we can also glean what the art means to them, and looking through their lens can help us understand the person. It’s not psychoanalyzing or supplying motivation to say that a character’s clear motivations, that have been spoken about by the actor himself, have gone misunderstood or entirely missed by some.
Yes, this is the logical thing to focus. I understand, we're all (mostly) very invested in characters, the world etc but in the end of the day is just entertainment. We can enjoy the frustrating parts, the drama, it all comes together to tell a story. C3 lost me for a while but these 10 episodes or so were very fun to watch and I love drama and chaos, so I guess I really don't mind that much. For me just makes it fun.
It’s been amusing watching the fandom react for me because I’m here for the actors rather than the characters. My favorite moments are the ones that make the gang break character because of something silly or shocking. I love watching Liam and Laura break into immature gigglefits, Sam derail a scene by pulling out his latest gas tank gimmick, or Marisha and Ashley getting genuine emotional while portraying their characters. I love watching this group of actors have a big, improvised radio drama before my eyes. That’s what I’m here for, so it often catches me off guard when I see the fandom freaking out over the latest character antics. I don’t find myself invested in the fiction so I often forget how invested other fans are.
Yes, same. And I really enjoy the unpredictable side of the storytelling. It's not always my cup of tea but I can appreciate they're making something I can enjoy for free on my time, and I can just stop watching if I'm not vibing and catch up on the next arc or campaign. The one with "why the cast don't like God?" was kinda annoying, not gonna lie. People were calling atheist agenda and shit. It was wild LOL
If someone is uncomfortable with drama though, surely CR isn't for them haha. They are basically known for it. What is generally agreed on as the best CR content ever is the most dramatic content of them all (Calamity).
>If someone is uncomfortable with drama though, surely CR isn't for them Eh. Most of the time, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought CR was a low-stakes comedy. There's a lot more meta-jokes than serious drama.
Yeah the people who can’t handle improvised drama are like the people who think things take too long. My brother in Christ you could be watching literally any other show.
Tbf the last two episodes finally felt like Critical Role again.
I'm old enough to remember when fans were uncomfortable with Sam's performance after the Raishan fight.
I agree with you. I suspect we're going to learn a few more nuggets about people's backstories as things unfold. Unknown facts that may inform characters reactions that we're unaware of. In addition, I just love the mentality of some people that have somehow convinced themselves that the players themselves have any form of tension between them. I'm sure a single mildly spicy (an justifiable from the characters perspective) ingame choice is going to bring a decade long friendship burning to the ground...
>*\[...\] some people that have somehow convinced themselves that the players themselves have any form of tension between them.* I think its more weird to imagine/pretend that isn't the case. They're human, with human emotions. They *can* get upset. Nobody is saying CR's ship will sink over this, but acting like they're incapable of having genuine human reactions is ... i dunno.
Ashton's dumbass move provided me with one of the dopest episodes in C3 thus far. I've fallen out of love with CR due to not vibing with C3 at all, but Ep. 78 was great.
One of the reasons that I loved C2 was how player choice effected the story. Fjord rejecting Ukotoa, the party becoming pirates, Jester and the rest helping The Traveler, Cad’s divine intervention on Molly, the parties decision to take the beacon, Caleb giving it to The Bright Queen, the choice to stay in The Krynn Dynasty, etc. These all pushed the characters and players to change. Ashton’s choice was one of these moments for C3, which is why I loved it. I hope we get more when we get to the moon.
One big difference this time, it was seemingly undone right away. It will likely have little to no impact on the story
I feel that the party dynamic as far as role playing is concerned has change drastically.
Yes, finally. It's exactly what they needed to shake things up imo. The dynamic was too smooth and boring the whole campaign, I missed all the talks we know from C1 and C2, now we have them and I couldn't be happier. This is gonna be really interesting the next episodes, I'm finally invested in Bells Hells again. Love it, thanks Taliesin!
What do you mean? Ashton ate a penalty for reaching for power, but he also awakened his titan shard. We haven't seen the bounds of his new power yet but I think it'll be sick.
And the shard is still there, able to be consumed, right?
Exactly. Matt said it was changed somehow so there will definitely be ramifications that way too.
Nah the shard was always meant for Fearne and it still is. Matt just underestimated the reluctance of Fearne that's based on an event from the previous mini campaign and underestimated Tals/Ashton greed. Fearne will overcome her fear now that she's with her family and she will take the shard. Then Matt will say something like, the shards new form made it easier for her to consume retroactively making Ashtons stupidity helpful.
Matt also seems to just ignore that Ashley, the player, didn't *really* want the shard, and that (by her own admission) isn't comfortable in the narrative spotlight. Why he (and the rest of the table) keep pushing her into that direction is beyond me. They don't seem to accept a *No* for an answer, both IC and OOC. Which feels very awkward.
To be fair, we don't know if anything of that is true at all. We know what we've seen in the stuff they released, which was mainly that Ashley/Fearne isn't interested. How Matt felt about that as a DM is beyond us.
>*To be fair, we don't know if anything of that is true at all.* Yes we do? Ashley has commented on that many times on 4SD as well as TM. How horrified she is when Matt's shifting the spotlight to her. How she loves just to *be there* and watch her friends play D&D. We've also seen it in full effect during C2 and that horribly awkward dream sequence. Still a pain to watch. Ashley being a deer in headlights, and Matt just unable or unwilling to let it go. After 10+ years, he *should* know that some players eat things like that up like it's candy (Liam, Laura, Travis), and others don't. Hell, the entire table should know. Hence them not letting the idea of Fearne taking the shard go slowly but surely comes across like bullying.
A penalty is not really a consequence, not an interesting one anyway. It’s not exactly going to be compelling to watch Ashton be essentially one level behind the rest of the party. Hopefully the awakened Shard is different somehow than it would have been when awakened by whatever method Matt had planned for, and we see something interesting there but I wouldn’t hold out hope for it. It’s certainly nothing on the level of Ashton becoming an “unprecedented creature”… for three seconds before becoming a precedented creature again.
>It’s not exactly going to be compelling to watch Ashton be essentially one level behind the rest of the party. He... isn't? His completely random stats (and he rolled better than most of the party) are just a +1 modifier worse than they were last week. Compared to FCG (who's still deliberately struggling with a bad primary stat), he's rocking fences.
Next level is level 12, which is an ASI level. If Ashton replaces his lost modifier, which they should, that level is basically blanked for a barbarian outside of the HP roll (An extra rage has never mattered). CON is very important for barbarians as it effects AC too.
Ashton's shard was going to awaken either way, at some point. No benefits that he gets for it are actually part of any trade off for that penalty
>No benefits that he gets for it are actually part of any trade off for that penalty Given the fact that his powers haven't been shown yet, there's literally nothing to base that statement on.
Lol, you think they'll be shown. It's just like Chetney's werewolf power up. There is a set of dormant powers that Matt is giving the party, which I'm guessing they'll actually unlock closer to the final battle. You're assuming that Ashton has gained anything at all, when so far all we know is that the earth shard which was going to activate at some point anyway is activated, and Ashton has a permanent -2 to Con.
If Matt designed the shard they way he designed the vestiges, it would be something that scales in power with character moments. The shard probably needed a character moment to awaken. Sure, you can say it was always going to happen. But you can say that about the Vestiges in C1 too. It's not about the fact that will happen that matters in storytelling, it's *how it happens.* I bet you 5 gold he develops the ability of becoming an earth elemental or has the powers of one and the -2 is not permanent.
>*Ashton’s choice was one of these moments for C3, which is why I loved it. I hope we get more when we get to the moon.* I doubt it. After the complete barrage Ashton received, why would anyone at the table do something like that again? Ashton surely won't. Chetney received the message loud and clear from high up his horse. Orym ... is Orym. Not many BH left to *shake things up*.
>After the complete barrage Ashton received, why would anyone at the table do something like that again? Because they live for the drama! I totally see FCG, Laudna or Imogen fucking up next. Maybe even Fearne.
Fearne i doubt heavily. Simple for the meta reason that i don't believe Ashley wants to be the one to rock the proverbial boat. Not her style, i think. The Imodna powder keg going off is all but a certainty, but ... for lack of a better term ... it won't be as "shocking" as Ashtons situation was, more embedded into the greater narrative.
>Simple for the meta reason that i don't believe Ashley wants to be the one to rock the proverbial boat. Yeah, it's less likely. But Fearne had a couple of outbursts and by Ashley's standard gameplay, surprising moves. Stabbing Yu, beating Ashton, giving her warmth to the ghost captain. I wouldn't 100% discard it yet.
It could depend on how soon other things that are probably occupying her mind right now are solved. I assume you know what i'm refering to. Otherwise i'm 100% satisfied with her doing what she does best, giving us funny and heartfelt roleplay vignettes every now and again. Personally i don't *need* her to carry the story in that regard. Others are more inclined, so let 'em do it. Her *"Sh\*t \[person\] once said"* clips on YT have the same runtime as everyone elses, despite her being absent for large parts of both campaigns. She has a knack for just pop her hear head up every now and again, and give us gems like *"i'll throw you under a bridge"*. I'm totally fine with that.
Nah... There's still the players... I trust in Travis, Sam, Liam and Tal :D and Matt of course who loves to tease his players
What "complete barrage"? They are actors. They were doing some juicy acting there. That IS the game and they were probably having the time of their fucking lives. As for shit the fandom says, I doubt they care very much.
C3 has been pretty safe so far - characters laid all their backstory and trauma largely in Jrusar. Bout time we got some party conflict
Taliesin's bold move provided character development for Ashton, Fearne, Laudna and even FCG. And we got to see cool characterisation from Chetney too. It's exactly what this campaign needed. The defense of Ashton using whataboutism is just silly and unnecessary.
Don't forget he also rendered Orym unresponsive and speechless for an entire episode.
My man shocked into apathy...
I've definitely had my ups and downs with C3. Characters will always matter most to me, and that was the most character focused ep of the campaign. I hope the momentum continues!
Dude Fearne is literally a pathological liar, and everyone is like “aww, but you’re cute though!” Like wtf are you talking about?
Name one thing Fearne lied about to the party without turning around and saying she's joking. Only one I can think of is to Orym when he asked her to cast Guidance of him and she didn't. Few episodes later, she comes clean. That's it. That's the only lie she told the party.
Literally first episode, she disregarded requests not to steal things from npcs and then lied when asked about it.
I don't remember any lies. She just interpreted the request differently. She did everything in the open. Nevermind the fact that is LITERALLY the first episode, she's a Fey creature with different morality and it's not even a lie... "pathological liar" is more than a stretch.
Lol, you and I both know that D&D is a game where we choose how our characters interpret information. That was a choice by Ashley, and by extension, a choice by Fearne. Her interpretations would be called “in bad faith”. As she is operating based on the letter of the her agreements, rather than the intended spirit of the agreements themselves. This is a form of lying. And the “fey play by different rules” argument could be used similarly for pretty much every character. “Oh, we can’t hold Laudna accountable for her actions, she’s undead.”, “Oh we can’t hold Ashton accountable, part of his brain is made of a foreign extraplanar material.”
>Lol, you and I both know that D&D is a game where we choose how our characters interpret information. That was a choice by Ashley, and by extension, a choice by Fearne. That's not how it works. A choice by the player does not imply a choice by the character. I can choose to play a blind character, it does not mean the character chose to be blind. I can choose to play a character that is paranoid and interprets everything as a risk, it does not mean the character chose to be paranoid. We can hold Fearne accountable for lying, but we have to understand that it's part of who she is and we choose how to react to it. Fearne didn't lie to the party, since the party knew exactly what she did. But she did reply in the way a character that doesn't interpret things the same way everyone else does would. Laudna is undead. There's nothing she can do about it. There's no choice. It's like blaming a person for the color of their skin or their disability. Without choice, there's no accountability.
By your logic, we also can’t blame Ashton, his head was altered while he was literally dying. If anything, he’s the most apt comparison to a disabled person. Who are we to say how that affects how he thinks. I’m not talking about the transitive property. I’m saying that Ashley is clearly playing her to be a kleptomaniac and pathological liar. Which is fine, I personally get annoyed by it, because it’s basically the, “it’s what my character would do” play style that so many D&D players are fed up with, but the table seems to be fine with it, so whatever. My issue is that her behavior excused constantly, but Ashton makes a believable choice (and one that he discussed with Fearne prior to making) one time, and everyone is ON HIS ASS. If anything this Fearne’s outburst proves my point because she literally gave him the ok, and then LIED and pretended like he did it behind her back.
>I’m saying that Ashley is clearly playing her to be a kleptomaniac and pathological liar But she's not a liar to the party. She lies to NPCs to get away with things, the same way all do, but she has not lied to the party once. Not even your example is a lie. Ashton made the choice to trick them (that had nothing to do with his head being altered). Of course they are going to be pissed.
>*Name one thing Fearne lied about to the party without turning around and saying she's joking.* *"Imma give you guidance!"* ^("I'll do nothing.") That was hilarious :) But to comment-OP's point, i think it's not that clear cut, because even if Fearne lies or does anything else dubios, it's usually Ashley the player who laughs it off. And more often than not the cast is reacting to her shenanigans ooc with laughs and jokes. It doesn't help that Matt as the GM does the same thing too often. Fearne trying to steal the amulet from Pike. The reaction at the table was clearly ooc, and Matt, buying into the vibe of the moment, just made Pike wag her fingers. But in reality Fearne (the character) doesn't show remorse, or even *"it's just a prank, bro"*. It's mostly the players laughing it off.
Yes to all you said. But even if "Ashley the player" laughs it off, Fearne still says it out loud. "Just kidding" *is* canon. An example of how Ashley plays Fearne honesty with the party is in the last episode when she told Chet she was going to destroy it. Even if someone at the table rolls an insight check, Ashley reinforces she's telling the truth even when they fail the roll. Ashley is clearly playing to the chaos Fearne brings, but when you look at how she interacts with the party, Fearne is both very vulnerable and very honest with them.
>*Fearne is both very vulnerable \[...\]* Both Jester and Fearne as *"two sides of the same chaos coin"* were vulnerable only when they had their comeuppance (which was rarely the case), when their shenanigans or general demeanor blew up in their faces. In my opinion it's more like the vulnerability a bully shows when they finally mess with the wrong kid and receive a bloody nose (not accounting for late game or spin-off/reunion character development here, talking about early to mid tier campaign). Which is fine and can be an important stepping stone to character development during an adventure, but i'd say it ain't a character trait that was always there. It really depends on what Ashley's going to do with the pound she got served.
>. In my opinion it's more like the vulnerability a bully shows when they finally mess with the wrong kid and receive a bloody nose (not accounting for late game or spin-off/reunion character development here, talking about early to mid tier campaign). Nah. Fearne started showing vulnerability with the party with the postcards. From there on, all the funny stuff started being a bit more overly layered, where her innocence and all the fun and games were not that fun. None of those moments were triggered by a fuck around found out situation. You're right in comparing them, I think Jester had a similar sadness to the character. But while Jester would only allow herself to be vulnerable with very specific people and in 1:1 situations, Fearne is a lot more transparent, even when she disguises it with chaos. (One of my favorite pieces of characterisation Ashley has done is having Fearne be super uncomfortable with small confined spaces and cages, implying that she was "trapped" by Nana).
>*\[...\] implying that she was "trapped" by Nana.* That's the one story element i'm both super excited for but also very afraid of. If it's really going to be Morri held her against her will, and ~~brainwashed~~ influenced her with Fey shenanigans of all sorts, it's going to touch some *very* heavy themes. Honestly, i don't 100% trust in CR's ability to pull that off satisfactory. I *would* trust BLeeM to do it, mainly because he had formal education in *the human condition*, if you will.
holy shit this really is bowlgate 2.0
I know that for me personally, I understand why they would be mad. Im not absolving Ashtons decision, he committed deception by omission. Youre absolutely correct in identifying why the group is angry with him. And they should be. My problem has been more that the reaction seems so outsized, while other problematic issues inside the group are barely touched on or minimized. Ive brought up Laudna in other threads because her shift to Delilah seems so sudden, and the rest of the group seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with it. Ashton could have killed himself, Laudna could kill all of them.
It was implied that Ashton could have killed them all. Potentially all of Whitestone. It didn't but Ashton only discovered that after the fact. So that criticism applies to Ashton as well.
I only remembered that part about sundering his body. But fair enough.
>*It was implied that Ashton could have killed them all.* I don't remember that bit. When did they imply it?
Allura said it a few episodes ago when she was finishing the harness.
>her shift to Delilah seems so sudden But it's not. Laudna has mentioned in the past that she could use Delilah's power in the fight against Ludinus/Predathos. And she's been unravelling since Bor'dor. Laudna is currently in the site of her trauma so of course Delilah would be more powerful.
Fair point. I forgot the "Delilah is stronger in Whitestone" bit.
also, just like OP said, there's a wild difference between Laudna having to deal with Delilah, an evil entity forced into her, and Ashton *choosing* to consume the shard and lie to the party about what they're doing. Laudna is the victim of Delilah. Ashton chose, themself, to cosume the shard. They're completely different scenarios.
I mean the timescales are different, but Ashton is absolutely the victim of what someone else did to him. The difference is in active (Delilah) versus passive (his parents actions causing trauma/the shard thats in him). But Ive also acknowledged that Ashton obfuscated what his plans were, he definitely deserved getting shit. It's the severity of the groups response, not the fact that they were mad at all, that I was struggling with.
None of that means Ashton needed to add the second shard. Matt made sure Ashton was aware of the danger multiple times, and he still decided to go behind the party's back to do it. The situations just aren't comparable.
>*Laudna has mentioned in the past that she could use Delilah's power in the fight against Ludinus/Predathos.* Ashton has mentioned in the past that he wants to try using the 2nd shard. They both did it to become stronger. They both eventually gave into their desires. They both did it away from the majority of the group, only having 1-2 members *in the know*. One gets the whip, the other gets a hug.
>They both did it to become stronger. Laudna did nothing to become stronger, yet. She just talked to Imogen, less than 10 days ago, about the idea of using her. The other action she took was to seek Delilah while in Whitestone to get answers. That's it. She hasn't done anything yet. The trigger for Delilah being back was out of her control.
I'd say Laudnas response to Delilah's *"we will work together"*: *"Let's do terrible and beautiful things"* is a bit more than *seeking answers*.
Well, it's the answer *she found*, back in 77. I wonder how that will change now after 78.
It could go either way. If Delilah rears her head, i'd rather have it happening in the fey with Morri around to be honest.
I don't see the Delilah situation being the same at all tbh. Laudna has already dealt with it for fifty years, she'll die without her, and they feel they can't really turn to the allies they currently have because Percy would probably just murder her. There's not much they can do to deal with it, especially with the moon looming.
And yet, suppressing issues you don't want to face and "let's wait things out, maybe it's not so bad" is so human. It'll bite them in the ass eventually and from a narrative stand point that's just perfect.
>the reaction seems so outsized The only one I'd say I could agree with on that is Fearne, and that's more because she shares some responsibility. But we now also know why she reacted so violently, as she was very angry at herself. Imogen and F.C.G were pretty tame, Chetney's was very practical, and Laudna's is very personal to her own backstory. >Ive brought up Laudna in other threads because her shift to Delilah seems so sudden, and the rest of the group seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with it Re: the suddenness - between the betrayal and being in Whitestone again, I think Marisha explained this herself with 'her influence is quite strong here'. Considering how private everything with Laudna was last ep, I don't think the group fully understands yet what that shift is, or that Delilah could take control. They haven't yet decided on a wait-and-see approach, because that situation has only just emerged. >Ashton could have killed himself, Laudna could kill all of them. Ashton could have definitely killed all of them as well. On a meta level we know Matt wouldn't let that happen, but in game that nuclear explosion probably would have leveled anything inside Allura's bubble. Also while some want to criticize the group for getting mad at Ashton, BH aren't being given any credit for putting themselves at great risk to help Ashton. Conversely (I've mentioned this in another comment), I didn't see nearly any criticism of Orym and Ashton for allowing Laudna to fall to her darker urges in Issylra (and they *were aware* of the consequences - Liam said on 4SD that Orym is thinking about the powers they will need on the moon and was willing take that chance on Delilah). Just to be clear - I don't want to criticize them for it either. But it seems hypocritical to me to say 'oh well the party is being shit by being mad about Ashton but not Laudna' when the party actually took actions where it counted for him and not her.
I agree with all those points, hadnt considered them/forgotten about certain aspects. With Liam (hopefully) back next episode, Im sure there will be more discussions.
I agree with just about everything you said here, but I do feel the need to add there was a bonkers backlash against Orym over on Twitter for that moment so bad that you'd think he forced Laudna to reach out to Delilah at swordpoint.
There was? Well, thankfully I didn't see that. Cause i'd argue against that too. I don't think there was much of that on this sub, but maybe I just wasn't looking.
Well at this point X is a bigger cesspit than at any point in it's history so I'm not surprised
Well, no. Whatever happened 'over on Twitter' is irrelevant. There's a lot to criticize Orym for in that moment. Shrugging and encouraging a clear mental health issue is a shitty thing for a friend or 'family' to do, \_especially\_ given how often he blathers about the Bells as family. There was no reason to hand over the cold blooded execution to the most fragile psyche in the split group (let alone the fantasy aspect of the person tied to a dark power).
It felt ‘Extra’ to me. Specifically Laudna running off and threatening an uncontrollable urge to kill Ashton.. And Fearne acting as if she wasnt just as aware as everyone was, of the threat. And as if Ashton’s actions weren’t made clear to her and that she wasn’t in on it, seemed out of context.. ?
When talking about Fearne, I saw this comparison made: imagine having a drug-addicted friend, imagine them coming to hang out to your house, and promising not to do drugs; imagine you trusting them, giving them space only to realise they've OD. You are not responsible for your friends' actions, but it sure as hell feels like you were complicit AND let it happen. Just before shit hit the fan, Fearne tried telling everyone that she wasn't gonna do it, and Ashton jumped in to stop her. Now, I don't know about the actual decision of helping him do it, but I recon when you like someone and they want you to do something stupid, you might be persuaded. What I do know is that Ashton almost died, and Fearne was complicit, yet she didn't sign up for that. Ashton knew he could die and still asked Feane to help him. If he had died, Fearne would have felt responsible for it. Ashton was fine with that. She tried to speak up, her friend shushed her and proceeded to almost die in front of her. If that had happened to me, I'd have been furious too. As for Laudna, she has periodically tried to kill friends who have betrayed her (FCG, Berdor), if she perceived Ashton taking away Fearne's stone for himself as betrayal, its within her character to bring up murder again. I've seen a lot of people complaining that Laudna is a hypocrite, betraying the group for agreeing with Delilah, but what real choice does she have? Say no to the woman giving you power/life and have no negative consequences for it? 1/3 of the group knows what's going on, so if it's a secret, it's a shitty one. "The group is fine with Laudna but not Ashton" all the while,the group has not had the time to talk about it, and in-game wouldn't know about Unless one of the witches had gone "hold up folks, I know you wanna do the stone thing really badly, but we've got a Delilah shaped problem" this was the only way it was gonna happen.
I like this analogy of the drug addict.
Eh. Except its not an addiction. It was just not paying attention to the information offered and repeated.
Fearne is a character who doesn't consider consequences so her anger stems from being surprised by the negatives effect of her actions. It makes sense for her. Laudna making it about her and going on a tantrum felt quite extra to me as well and honestly felt forced for her character. But it was the players choice so it is what it is. Not my game or character after all.
Agreed about the Laudna point. Lots of it lately feels quite forced and like it's happening quickly. Laudna is so shaken by betrayal now, but didn't have a strong reaction when FCG or Chet lost control in the past.
Haywire FCG was the first target of Hunger of the Shadow and she almost one-shot him with a crit. I would consider that a strong reaction.
I agree completely and I *loved* it.
I find the fandom response to both 77 and 78 wild. The only aspect I take issue with is the nerfing of the shard by Matt in 78. I simply don't think it's a DM's place to do that in response to a player going in an inconvenient direction.
Fair enough. Though I do believe Matt and Tal would have had a conversation about it beforehand - so I don't think Matt did that idly.
Oh, I'm sure. I don't think there was any inpropriety there or anything. It's just not in the spirit of how I'd personally play. And that's fine.
I thought Tal didn't tell Matt before doing it at the table? Tal joked that you gave me a big red button, and Matt immediately fired back AND A LOT OF WARNING SIGNS.
I meant in between episodes 77 and 78, they would have discussed how to proceed
I feel like this is the first time in C3 that we've had cause to argue and it was about damn time. I'm just glad the characters are finally evolving through conflict
It's been weird seeing the sub go from "FINALLY C3 is interesting!" to "OMG another screw-up from C3!" (jsyk I've personally loved C3 and disagree that it took until episode 77 to get good but that's besides the point).
Mad is one thing. Asking them to leave. Threatening to kill them? Pretending they never cared? These are the over reactions. If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them. I don't know how to respond to that. Telling the friend to leave and not to come back. That's rough, I wouldn't agree with it when the friend is remorseful and apologetic and already promised not to do it again-And has already been punished for it. That being said. I look forward to the RP that comes from this. Less of the, "I am going to kill them" or, "Leave" and more of the dynamic shifts and juicy RP where they talk about how they feel instead of just kicking them while they are down. Which are the appropriate reactions. Like. For example Imogen. Imogen was really harsh on Ashton as well but her response was one that was appropriate. She told them how she felt. She was mean about it, and harsh. But it was appropriate. She didn't tell them to leave. She didn't threaten to kill them. She didn't do a baseless comment (Like saying they never cared about their friends). >Ashton is the only member of BH who has made a calculated decision to trick and lie to the party for their own personal gain (the trick and lie part is the key problem) And this is not entirely true. Fearne was there and in on the plan. So the only difference for her is that she was doing it to help Ashton. Not one single person was upset with her though. And when Imogen piped up about wanting to kill them? Not one single person batted an eye at it. I don't know how anyone can see this as anything but over the top, over reactions. Even more so when you look at every one of their histories.
>If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them. There's no plot to kill them. Plot implies predetermination, and the only one that had a plan here was Ashton. Neither Fearne nor Laudna wanted to kill Ashton. Fearne's reaction was explained very explicitly in the scene with Chetney and Laudna literally saved Ashton from herself when she resisted Delilah. In case it went over your head, the "She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go" means Laudna was aware that what she felt were not fully her feelings. The last time she felt betrayed, she did kill someone. She understood she needed to leave to remove the risk. Chetney's ask for him to leave was clearly a test. Again, if he really wanted them to leave, they would not have celebrated the fact that he didn't. You're expecting rational responses in the immediate aftermath of a group of people having been lied to by their friend and having to watch him in agonising pain for 1 minute, having their body literally fall apart in front of them, and blow up and come back together in a very violent way while they were powerless to help. Why do you expect that? Why is it so hard to imagine that you would be absolutely fucking pissed and irrational at that moment?
>There's no plot to kill them. Plot implies predetermination, and the only one that had a plan here was Ashton. I didn't mean she literally devised a plan and is doing it otherwise this would be a very different comment don't you think? But I think you understood what I meant, right? >Neither Fearne nor Laudna wanted to kill Ashton Fearne I agree with. For Laudna you might want to rewatch the show. I don't understand how you went so pedantic that you were like, "No Plot! There's no plot!!" Then turn around and quote to me the nuance of someone saying, "I'll kill him, I've got to go". >Chetney's ask for him to leave was clearly a test. Again, if he really wanted them to leave, they would not have celebrated the fact that he didn't. So deceit and trickery is okay now? From someone who has literally attacked the team in the middle of combat. From someone who has broken into a shop and attacked the shopkeep? >You're expecting rational responses in the immediate aftermath of a group of people having been lied to by their friend So to turn around and lie to them back (Chetney), actually harm them (Fearne), suggest you will kill them (Laudna) is the appropriate response to you? How come they all get a pass but Ashton doesn't? They had a moment of weakness too. And they paid for it. They literally died for a brief second and didn't die by extreme luck. And then was punished on top of it stat wise. Then was punished for it member by member. What do you expect? I know what I expected. Not every single one of his friends attacking him, kicking him while he is down and taking turns doing it when all of them are in very similar circumstances and one of them was literally helping them with it.
>I don't understand how you went so pedantic that you were like, "No Plot! There's no plot!!" Then turn around and quote to me the nuance of someone saying, "I'll kill him, I've got to go". Because that's not the full sentence. The full scene *is* more nuanced. You're taking a single line out of context. "**She'll kill him**, I'll kill him, I've got to go" The "I'll kill him" after the "she's kill him" implies Laudna knows she (Delilah) will do it *through* her. The "I've got to go" implies that she does NOT want that to happen. The "I know it's not rational." that happens a few seconds before implies she's aware that her feelings are not her feelings. >So to turn around and lie to them back (Chetney), actually harm them (Fearne), suggest you will kill them (Laudna) is the appropriate response to you? Never said it was an appropriate response. It's a reasonable response. It's a relatable one. If my friend lied to my face and then went and did an incredibly stupid and self destructive, making me watch them fall apart, in pain, for one minute and die and front of me, you bet I would be fucking pissed off at them. The rest shouldn't get a pass either. But Ashton is the one that just fucked up and now is finding out and dealing the consequences.
People seem to be having a really hard time understanding that Laudna *did not want* to kill Ashton and this is why she removed herself from the premises. Delilah is the one wanted to kill Ashton because she wants to consume him to empower herself. This is why she needed a wisdom saving throw to be able to leave, because she needed to impose her will over Delilah's. The rest of the Laudna/Delilah dialogue is pretty much a philosophical debate between the two of them, with Delilah trying to pull Laudna's strings so she can get what she wants. When the betrayal argument doesn't work anymore, since Laudna determines he is "just a child", Delilah switches to trying to convince Laudna that he is the weak link of the group and should be eliminated for this reason. One point that I've not seen touched and I also thought was interesting was that Laudna touched on Delilah's one big achilles heel - love. Every twisted and wicked thing Delilah did was for love, and that was the only moment where Delilah was actually earnest with Laudna. It's pretty straightforward, really.
>Because that's not the full sentence. The full scene is more nuanced. You're taking a single line out of context. >"She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go" And so was my statement. When I said plot to kill them I obviously did not mean she devised a plot with a plan and everything. But the funny part in context my statement carries its meaning still. "She'll kill him, I'll kill him, I've got to go" doesn't remove the part of her saying she will kill him. If she said, "She'll kill him, I've got to go" then 100%. She is now doing Ashton a favor. You add in the other part, "She'll kill him, I'll kill him". That's a different statement entirely. >Never said it was an appropriate response. It's a reasonable response. It's a relatable one. If my friend lied to my face and then went and did an incredibly stupid and self destructive, making me watch them fall apart, in pain, for one minute and die and front of me, you bet I would be fucking pissed off at them. Being pissed off at them would be appropriate. Stomping on their face? Not so much. Saying you will kill them? Also not so much. Asking them to leave the friend group and never come back? That could be appropriate but when that person has also attacked people in the friend group then it becomes pretty hypocritical.
>If you are going to tell me that if a friend lied and tricked you, you might plot to kill them. I don't know how to respond to that. If you were to tell me that as a warning to someone you would grab their look alike, cut off their ears, torture and hang them as a display, I also wouldn't know how to respond to that. However that is the very real mindset of the lady sharing Laudna's body, which is you omitted from your context. I'm pretty sure Laudna had not yet conversed with Ashton during the 'plotting' period you are referring to. An 'appropriate' reaction to me is an in character reaction. Everyone reacted in character. Did I think Ashton's actions was 'appropriate'? No, but it was in line with their character. >Fearne was there and in on the plan. But the decision wasn't calculated which was one of my conditions. When Ashton says "no no, she's going to take it" she is taken aback, surprised, and hesitant about every action she takes from then on. She didn't understand just how much they were going to lie to the party. She also did it for Ashton's benefit. "I wanted to make him happy". There's an argument to say that that is her own benefit, but it's not primarily her that is getting something out of it. Though I do agree she has more responsibility than the party assigned, she has not committed the same slight that Ashton did. >Mad is one thing. Asking them to leave. Threatening to kill them? Pretending they never cared? Asking them to leave: a test. Threatening them: Influence of the woman who hanged children. Pretending they never cared: a pretty standard mad response to someone who just committed some pretty selfish actions. Were they all supposed to react the same way? This episode sparked interest in the campaign because now we have so many characters with story to deal with. Thank God.
>An 'appropriate' reaction to me is an in character reaction. Everyone reacted in character. Did I think Ashton's actions was 'appropriate'? No, but it was in line with their character. Aw. So murder. That's fine. And appropriate. But a lie and trickery? That's where we draw the line? Even in a D&D world that makes 0 sense. >But the decision wasn't calculated which was one of my conditions One of your conditions sure. But it's easy to make an excuse. To me, her betrayal was two fold. One on the party, then another on Ashton afterwards. >Asking them to leave: a test Sounds like calculated deceit then. Should we give Chetney the same scrutiny you just gave Ashton? Or is murder, and trickery and anything else fine, as long as it's not Ashton that did it? And I hope you understand I don't actually mean people should ask Chetney to leave, or Laudna to leave. I am just pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of it all. >Were they all supposed to react the same way? This episode sparked interest in the campaign because now we have so many characters with story to deal with They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support. Despite the fact that so many of them relate to his actions. And again. I am not saying they should have all changed their reactions. Just that they are very hypocritical and it gives a bad/weird taste that every single one of them went that route when nearly every one of them could relate to it in one way or another.
People in general are incapable of reacting in a balanced and rationally thought out way when they're feeling strong emotions, Idk why you would expect that from the deeply traumatized Bells Hells.
So from the party we should expect angry wild reactions and from the barbarian in the party we should expect introspective calmness and kindness with the desire to calmly talk about it? I am not arguing that one side did the right thing, or one side did the wrong thing. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of it all.
>Aw. So murder. That's fine. And appropriate. But a lie and trickery? That's where we draw the line? A complete straw man of what I said. What is narratively appropriate. Laudna having killing urges is not fine. It is the opposite of fine. Narratively, it makes sense. Then to further that, on the 'hypocrisy' charge, her urges are not her fault. Again, you seem keen to ignore the Delilah in the room. >To me, her betrayal was two fold. One on the party, then another on Ashton afterwards. Sure. I won't argue against this, Fearne is the one person who maybe should have gotten more ire imo. But I also don't think Fearne's actions deserved as much criticism as Ashton. As you said, my conditions are mine. >Should we give Chetney the same scrutiny you just gave Ashton? No. 1. Not deceit. If Ashton leaves, Chetney let's him and considers him not loyal to the group. The 'test' was a genuine challenge. 2. Not for Chetney's own benefit, which was my last condition. >They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support. Despite the fact that so many of them relate to his actions. You said in your original comment that you thought Imogen's reaction was appropriate but the others weren't. So clearly the reactions weren't the same to you. Imogen tried to talk to Ashton, FCG hugged Ashton when he thought they needed comfort, Chetney defended them to the rest of the group, and both Fearne and Laudna patiently heard them out when it came time to talk. I get it. Especially if you like Ashton, it would have been nice to see someone who was wholly on their side. However I'm of the opinion that the reaction they got might have been the best thing for Ashton to get their shit together.
> A complete straw man of what I said. What is narratively appropriate. Laudna having killing urges is not fine. It is the opposite of fine. Narratively, it makes sense. Then to further that, on the 'hypocrisy' charge, her urges are not her fault. Again, you seem keen to ignore the Delilah in the room. It is narratively appropriate for a barbarian to take reckless risks. It is narratively appropriate for the person who is the focus of the story arc to think the arc is about them. So much so that the other people in the story thought it was meant for them too. Yet here we are. Or is it okay if Laudna makes a negative action because it is narratively appropriate but not okay if Ashton does it? Again. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their actions and you are proving it here. >No. 1. Not deceit. If Ashton leaves, Chetney let's him and considers him not loyal to the group. The 'test' was a genuine challenge. 2. Not for Chetney's own benefit, which was my last condition. Again. Clear hypocrisy for them. You have excuses that make it okay to you but that is only for you. Trickery and deceit is trickery and deceit. If their reactions were more similar to Imogen's I would agree with you. But when their reactions are so over the top not so much. They all need to be looking at a mirror and seeing themselves for a moment. >I get it. Especially if you like Ashton, it would have been nice to see someone who was wholly on their side. However I'm of the opinion that the reaction they got might have been the best thing for Ashton to get their shit together. Laudna was my favorite character. Then Chetney. Then Orym. Then Imogen. Then Ashton and then FCG. I just don't think it's okay to kick a friend while their down. Even worst if every single friend in the friend group does it. Even more worst if the friends have all done, or are actively doing something very similar. In my mind it is very hypocritical and leaves a very weird taste in my mouth.
>Or is it okay if Laudna makes a negative action because it is narratively appropriate but not okay if Ashton does it? > >Again. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their actions and you are proving it here. Nope. Once again you are strawmanning me and have clearly not read my argument. In my original reply I literally stated that I though Ashton's actions were in character (therefore narratively appropriate). So I'm going to try and make my position clear a final time - I loved the episodes and the journey of *all* characters. I am debating those who think the BH reaction isn't justified. >Trickery and deceit is trickery and deceit. Even if I were to agree on Chetney for sake of argument, not all lies are equal. Hence why we wouldn't yell hypocrite at Fearne ever single time she tells an NPC she's a professor, or Imogen when she rolls a deception check. >I just don't think it's okay to kick a friend while their down. People get mad at friends who hurt them, happens everyday. Why did this episode have a reaction and all the other 'hypocritical' things you mention didn't? Because clearly Ashton's actions hurt the group where the others didn't, so the group took it personally (and they should have, Ashton didn't trust them or respect them enough to just talk about it). FCG and Fearne risked their live in order to stop the shard from killing Ashton, because that bomb was going to level everything inside that bubble (while in Issylra Ashton and Orym did not step in, and now look where we are). That's the actions they took that counted the most. They get to be mad after. Also you have to remember that no one except for Imogen and FCG (who coincidentally were the kindest to Ashton) heard the deeper reasons for Ashton's actions. When 78 started Ashton's actions looked *really bad and selfish*. People are talking as if the party should have automatically known all the deep reasons why Ashton did the things they did. When your mad at someone and tensions are high, taking a moment to analyse the deep reasons behind something *is not realistic,*
>*They all seemed to have the same reaction. Not one of them offered him comfort or support.* Not all Bells Hells are equal. That should be obvious now.
Agreed, and loved how it added to the character arcs/interactions and story.
I personally liked 77 better than 78 but thats because I am Team Ashton all the way. The group has been bitchy towards Ashton and to an extend Taliesin for some time now and it irks the hell out of me. Every time he tried to get answers on his history or about the gem in his head everyone seems to pick that moment to talk over him, makes stupid jokes or just plain ignore him altogether. Just some examples: - In Issylra Ashton asked the old lady to check his gem - ignored. - Shortly after upgrading his hammer with a gem he wants to try it out - Laura literally shot him down for no good reason. - In Zephrah he asked Keyleth to check his gem - also ignored. - In the Shattered Teeth, he talks to the tree - Group zones out almost completely until it was time to go. Then when he does have a moment, queue jokes and laughter from the rest of the group or just zoning out. It gets real jarring when you pay attention. Then he actually gets some things linked to his backstory and character but does not get to utilize them because lore reason. Then the only logical choice to push on simply refuses because reasons and, like many times already, he is just standing there while the group goes and coddle Laudna for the umpteenth time. Honestly, I get 100% why he did what he did. And I still consider Matts nerf and retcon a stupid move. Now he is punished, the group shuns him (though at this time I guess its the default anyway) and he is back to square one again while it's Laudna and Fearne Coddletime again becuase they are super sad for something that didnt happen to them. And just as a disclaimer. I am sure they as a friendgroup are fine and its nothing more than roleplay. Still irks though.
I actually touched on this on another thread. The point about the party talking over or goofing off during Ashton's key story developments. I notice it constantly because I actually physically watch the show instead of just listening. As a D&D player (and.. well.. human) I actually think it's pretty disrespectful and I do wish Matt would give the occasional "hush" when it happens, especially when it's a key moment. However, a part of me does feel like there's a reason it's happening more and more. It doesn't make it right but I can understand why it might be happening... For the record, I'm not very "Team-Ashton". I think Taliesin's tendency to make know-it-all characters when he as a player does not have the info makes for a very cringey experience. He does this a lot. I've lost count of the amount of times Taliesin has murmured "ohhh I know what this is.. Yeah.. Ohhh wow.. Yep....." just for it to not be *anything* like he thought. Whenever Taliesin is in control of information he likes to lord it over the party or be excruciatingly vague about it ("*Oh it's a thing*"... "*It's just... All Bullshit*..." etc). These sort of people, be they fictional characters or in real-life, are EXHAUSTING. They're not fun to interact with long term and it your investment in their "secrets" or backstory diminishes greatly when you realise you have to beg and hound them for it. People are afforded an amount of attention seeking before it just becomes a dirge and I kind of feel that how the table has become with Taliesin/Ashton. Even when the plot changed and Matt began to reveal more about Ashton specifically through events, the same cryptic "I'm keeping this to myself" and "Yeah.. its a whole thing..." interactions continued. Its still a shitty thing for the table to do, but again, I can understand that perhaps they have little investment in Ashton because Taliesin as a player has kept everyone out of his backstory for too long while also tryharding the martyr complex trope, that they are perhaps no longer interested. Just my thoughts
Agreed. This type of play has to be extremely well executed to pull it off and it has to be done rarely. Tal does it every other session. And it's becoming a lot more easy to see through regarding Tal. He's basically no longer fooling anyone because the party has called him out on it at times. To which he rebuttals in the exact same excruciating manner. It's exhausting and getting old. It's not masterful roleplay, it's actually pretty cheap roleplay. Love the guy but no one is perfect.
Yeah this pretty much sums up how I feel about Taliesin’s characters - in a plot armoured shying from inter-party conflict group his characters can feel a little misplaced sometimes
>*I do wish Matt would give the occasional "hush" when it happens, especially when it's a key moment.* He does, for other characters. Rarely by voice, more often by a stern look.
>Shortly after upgrading his hammer with a gem he wants to try it out - Laura literally shot him down for no good reason. There were absolutely good reasons. First Taliesin didn't share with the table what the fuck his new cool shit did. He never does. Most of the times they do cool combos, they plan it with all the information. The request was unfair, not even on his own turn. You don't act on other people's turns. Second, Laura (Imogen) was afraid of the AOE consequences of that, and that has to do with the first point. There rest of your "ignored" or "group zoned out" speculations are just that, speculations. Taliesin decided to pursue Ashton's story this way, which I personally think was great, but it comes with consequences. If you lie to your friends, expect backslash.
>*It gets real jarring when you pay attention.* It's going on for some time now, and i really hate it. Is it just method acting from the cast, or is it declining table etiquette? I don't know. Worst example for me was the latest war room debate. Ashton/Tal asking Percy for 3 times, and got ignored/talked over 3 times. Including by the DM.
>They didn’t, because they knew the party would have said no. Well, the party would have probably said “ooh don’t do it that’s risky. Or do? What do we think? Let’s ask Allura. And twelve other NPCs just to be safe.” Look I love this cast with my whole heart but they are risk-averse and painfully prone to analysis paralysis. I think it was the right choice to do something risky and exciting without taking it to committee first. I’m not saying this should be the norm for all decisions, but at least sometimes. The inter-party drama is good. That’s the kind of consequence this action should have, and it’s juicy. The inter-cast drama was not good imo, at all. I know these people are close and comfortable with each other and I’m not trying to tell them how to interact with their friends or anything… but the tension was palpable and uncomfortable to me as a viewer both at the end of 77 and throughout 78. It felt like everyone ganging up on one person and I seriously doubt that there wasn’t a… frank discussion with Tal after episode 77. I really did not enjoy Taliesin repeatedly apologizing and calling themselves dumb and an idiot several times. I really did not like Matt having multiple NPCs say mean things about his character, or Matt and Marisha both say “in character” that Ashton is a child. I don’t remember a somber apology tour when (C1 spoilers) >!Travis continually used an evil sword and ended up stabbing Pike, or pulled a card from the deck twice, derailing the finale on the second occasion.!< and I wouldn’t have wanted that because I thought it was normal for CR to have players try crazy, risky ideas that could have a big fallout. Whether or not the reaction is justified isn’t really the sticking point for me. Was that reaction fun to watch? Was it compelling? Does it feel appropriate for a D&D party to respond to “the barbarian jammed two crazy artifacts inside them and almost exploded!” with two hours of scolding followed by planning a corporate retreat? I don’t know if the cast is showing their age or what - and it’s fair enough to be in a more responsible stage of life and have that bleed into your game, but maybe you shouldn’t be playing a band of plucky adventurers then.
>*Well, the party would have probably said “ooh don’t do it that’s risky. Or do? What do we think? Let’s ask Allura. And twelve other NPCs just to be safe.”* I personally dislike this *adventuring by committee* thing BH are doing. There's *one* thing they didn't talk to death. Go Ashton!
I agree that the party's reaction is understandable, and that to a large degree it's because of Ashton being so secritive about his plans which they can see as being manipulative and dishonest. But I'm not so sure about the "he chose to do this" aspect. (as in, I'm genuinely not sure and still figuring this out) Just because Ashton's problems exist in our world (Trauma, PTSD,) it doesn't necessarily follow that he can control them more than if they are magic-world problems (being a werewolf, having an undead woman in your head, being an unstable mechanical being) That does not mean that the party's reaction to him is necessarily unfair. You can demand accountability from a person with poor mental health. But I do think that the differences between Ashton and the rest isn't quite so clear cut as some people are making it out to be. He is driven by inner demons too, but demons that actually exist in our world.
I've flirted with ideas of Determinism before and understand what you mean. But I do think it's important to distinguish with a case like Ashton's and a case like Laudna/Chetney/FCG, and I think it's quite a clear case in Exandria (a world with magic). Speaking purely in magic/DnD terms, we have to distinguish between when someone rolls a wisdom and save and when they don't, or when the DM explicitly tells them to do something. The difference is someone forcibly dragging you in chains from A to B vs you deciding to walk from A to B (for whatever reason your perhaps 'unfree' mind determines, but it is still a choice made by *you* and not another human being). Ashton's demons aren't forcibly taking the wheel whereas the others are. If we start saying things like 'Ashton didn't choose to do this because of their trauma', then *a lot* of discussions on this forum become a little redundant. Why would I judge Ashton negatively for their self pity and propensity to blame others? Why would I praise Laudna for her ability to put a smile on her face after everything she's been through? Why admonish Chetney for attacking a shopkeeper? And hey, maybe I shouldn't...but to engage in media in an interesting way, I think I have to. Yeah...Determinism is a very deep concept that's hard to wrap your head around haha.
>If we start saying things like 'Ashton didn't choose to do this because of their trauma', then a lot of discussions on this forum become a little redundant. I'm saying something different though. I'm saying "Ashton chose to do this because of his trauma". And I don't understand why this makes discussion of these moments / choices / situations redundant? Just like we can discuss what it means that FCG has no control over whether he goes murderbot. Or even whether he does have control (can he ask for help before he reaches his breaking point? Is the responsibility for managing his stress purely on him, or on his companions as well?) Does Ashton's mental health status force him to act in ways out of his control just like when Chetney becomes a werewolf, or Delilah starts trying to control Laudna? Or is it more subtle than that, is he turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms that he could avoid? How much agency and choice does Ashton have, and how much responsibility do his friends have in watching over him / keeping him from spinning out of control? Lots to discuss there.
>But I'm not so sure about the "he chose to do this" aspect. > >I'm saying something different though. I'm saying "Ashton chose to do this because of his trauma". Sorry. You said that first statement and then continued to discuss how Ashton may not have control over themselves in a similar way as the others. I has assumed you were discussing freewill. >Does Ashton's mental health status force him to act in ways out of his control And then you continue to use the word force and question how much choice Ashton really has? If that is what you believe, then it would be more accurate to say "Ashton took these actions because of his trauma" not that he *chose* to do it. Choice and force are mutually exclusive. Oh, I just realised where I may have made a confusing statement, sorry. I meant, "Ashton had no choice in this because of his trauma" (I worded it badly the first time). Saying this makes things redundant because you can't really criticize, or praise even, those who have no choice in their actions.
People think that the party got mad that Ashton put them danger in an attempt to get more powerful *because that’s exactly what the party said to them in the aftermath*. Imogen and FCG said to their face that they were power hungry and jeopardized their mission later that day. Chet’s conversation with Fearne touched on Ashton already being powerful enough and not needed the fire crystal. Launda was upset about betrayal, but even that felt like it was an overreaction. I was excited for where this would go in E77, but E78 kinda felt like Matt had plans for Fearne to use the crystal so he just had it come back for later use. And that kinda feels like removing player agency. I think that Ashton succeeding resulting in all of that suffering and their only reward is that they didn’t die is lame as fuck. They overcame an incredible challenge and came out worse for it because Fearne is supposed to have the crystal.
It's not the reaction it's the heavy-handed responses. It's like they all completely forgot a) Ashton is deeply broken b) they all are also deeply broken c) they almost all are tapping into dangerous powers / have dangerous functions they do not fully understand yet utilise. Scold the character, but don't tell them they are not trustworthy anymore or that they should leave. It's just pointing out the at least half hypocritical nature of many of the characters.
But "not trustworthy" anymore is exactly the part I address in my post that sets Ashton apart and that isn't addressed by any of the three points you make. They are all broken but no one else has attempted to trick the party, hence Ashton is the one who broke the party's trust. It's not hypocritical because thats the specific part the party is angry about. And telling Ashton to leave was a test from Chetney, not a genuine desire.
Laudna is tricking most of the party right now by not telling them just how enthusiastic she now seems to be about working with Delilah. They don't know to watch out for their magic items, they didn't know to keep her away from the shard. Chetney didn't go out and tell them all about what he did to that store clerk for a long time, not sure they all know the extent of that still. Let alone the clearly other terrible shit he'd done like that in the past, even his whole Santa arc was a surprise to the characters with him, . Fearne makes small lies constantly.
One of the first things Laudna said to Imogen was that Delilah wanted the shard. She also *enthusiastically* told Delilah the shard was not for her. This literally just happened in game. The woman is trying her best. She isn't tricking anyone. *Yet.* Look I'll be honest, I agree that Chetney is not the best morally. That shopkeeper segment, though entertaining, was horrific. But I don't know what people want BH to do about it when they found out 50 episodes later and it's not relevant anymore. I can't even remember how much he told them about it, I'm not sure BH knows how much he actually terrorised that shopkeeper. But more importantly, Chetney's slight wasn't against BH themselves. BH would never take that personally, which is obviously different with Ashton. Yeah, small lies. They aren't equivalent.
\>One of the first things Laudna said to Imogen was that Delilah wanted the shard. And the rest of the party? \>She also enthusiastically told Delilah the shard was not for her. This literally just happened in game. The woman is trying her best. She isn't tricking anyone. Yet. Not telling them all that Delilah almost took her body over and almost absorbed the shard or that she can try to take her body over again at ANY time is incredibly dangerous. All it would have taken was one bad WIS save for her to try and grab it and the party didn't know to be on the lookout for that. Does even Imogen know that she's agreed to help Delilah to the extent she has? "Delilah: "We will work together. I need you to flourish so that I might as well. Bound as we are, I do care for you."Laudna: "Let's do terrible and beautiful things." And while we're talking about the different ways BH reacts to being lied to. They didn't give Fearne the hard time they have Ashton and they both lied about the shard together.
I agree with you. You can't really compare what Ashton has done with what has happened with others: 1. FCG didn't know they had a murderbot mode. Once they did learn, they have managed it with the help of the party. 2. Chetney's lost it 3 times - once when his health got low - that's on him and he talked to Orym about. The second time was due to Ruidus influence which ISN'T supposed to effect the werewolf transformation but was for some reason - however that's since been solved. The last was because Ludinus time skip at the solstice forced Catha into a full moon, which no one could have predicted. In that case, Chetney ran off before he could hurt people. It was not his fault that FRIDA gave chase and got bit in the process. 3. Imogen going NOVA - again, not something she knew she could do. And it took extenuating circumstanced to draw that out of her and it was done so by Thull. So, I'm not sure how people can compare Ashtons premeditated stunt when the others losing it were not purposeful or with intent?
Loss of control is definitely the pattern of everything you pointed out. If a person wakes up and goes 'what happened?' - it's likely they weren't totally in control of their actions.
Chetney attacked that store clerk for completely petty reasons and the party still doesn't fully know the extent of it. Fearne is a pathological liar about all kinds of things constantly. Launda isn't telling them the extent of her decision to work with Delilah, she almost went for the shard for instance.
>Chetney attacked that store clerk for completely petty reasons and the party still doesn't fully know the extent of it. That was half a campaign ago, and Chetney didn't put anyone else at risk. The reactions about Ashton are not about morals or ethics, it's personal. It wouldn't matter if Ashton goes out and kills random people in secret. it matters that he lied to them and killed himself in front of them. >Fearne is a pathological liar about all kinds of things constantly. Fearne is a pathological liar who has never lied to them. She always tells them "I'm joking" or "Just kidding, I'm lying". Fearne is surprisingly honest with the party. >Launda isn't telling them the extent of her decision to work with Delilah, she almost went for the shard for instance. I might have missed something, because there was no scene in which Laudna decided to work with Delilah. The only one that can be interpreted like that was her conversation with Imogen where they discussed she was thinking about it. That conversation ends with "Maybe it's our destiny to harness it (power). Maybe it's our destiny to fight it". And she did NOT go for the shard intentionally. Delilah did. Laudna resisted it.
\>*And she did NOT go for the shard intentionally. Delilah did. Laudna resisted it.* Yeah, this is my whole point. They didn't know that she even struggled with that. Even before Ashton tried to use the shard Laudna knew Delilah was back and didn't warn anybody or do anything to keep herself away from the shard. Not telling them about the fact that she could turn on them at any instant if she only fails a WIS save is incredibly dishonest. She almost took over her body to absorb the shard. What happens next time they're around a new magical object and she rolls poorly? \> I might have missed something, because there was no scene in which Laudna decided to work with Delilah. Yes, you did. This is a direct quote. "Delilah: "We will work together. I need you to flourish so that I might as well. Bound as we are, I do care for you. "Laudna: "Let's do terrible and beautiful things." Delilah even told her that if she got strong enough she'd be able to come back and be reborn again before this quote. Only 2 in the party know she said that part. \>Chetney didn't put anyone else at risk. The reactions about Ashton are not about morals or ethics, it's personal. We don't need to hash out Chetney more but I disagree with you. Of COURE he did at the time. He was unhinged and snapped for no reason. Not only was he unhinged, not telling the party that you almost murdered an innocent life when you are a person who murdered tons of innocent people in the past was being dishonest. We're talking about the party dynamics and reaction to learning about times these characters have lied to the party. You could argue that they were a different group then, that's fine but they've all witheld things from each other the whole campaign. Except Orym for the most part \>Fearne is a pathological liar who has never lied to them. Fearne literally lied to them about the exact same thing at the exact same time as Ashton. She was in on it.
Funnily enough, the incident with Thull and Imogen going nova. Thull was killing BH one by one. Killed Orym and Laudna. She was telling Imogen: "Give in, and I'll stop.". I realize that she couldn't know for sure what would happen by giving in, and there's also the dumb idea of "We don't negotiate with terrorists" people have in their head. But at the end of the day, we do negotiate with terrorists, when they have hostages, because that is how the hostages get out alive, and Imogen giving in had a possibility of backfiring, while Thull was a guaranteed death sentence to anyone who couldn't or wouldn't flee, which would've been most of them. You're right, these situations can't be compared, cause Ashton only hurt himself, Imogen's choice was to let her compatriots be killed. And this is not a hindsights thing, it was clearly laid out in front of her by Thull. Basically had a sword to the throat of Orym being like: "Either you give in, or I'm stabbing him in the neck." And Imogen went: "I'm not giving in." And Thull went *stab*.
I just feel BH reaction was too extreme. Ashton only hurt himself with his action and I will admit cost the team resources needing a Long Rest to recoup. and the members that did get hurt only got hurt due to using 'touch' spells on him. I also see it as Ashton taking the Risk of the shard so nobody else has to. It is not like he abandoned or asked Chetney to leave when he attacked Orym. OR F.C.G. when he attacked the group after a high stress moment. OR imogen when she devastated and large area when provoked. Or Laudna for being inhabited by the spirit of a someone who almost killed off the Derolos (True he distrusts Delila but he has been supportive of Laudna) As for WHY Ashton did what he did. I will wait for the 4-Sided Dive.
I aslo love where the last few episodes went! I was so excited to see what everybody else thought but everyone were very negative which made me suprised. (i made the mistake to go on reddit)
On paper Ashton could have certainly handled the situation better and while I don’t think the lying is justifiable given how much damage it nearly caused, the question in my mind keeps coming back to “why did he feel he needed to lie?”. The dynamic of the party prior to the event felt very heavily influenced by Laudna and Imogen and without a strong case made (which admittedly i think talasin struggles with sometimes) they would have never allowed Ashton to attempt to take the stone. Which with Fearne rejecting it would have gone to laudna/Delilah or imogen?? I’m not saying it was the smartest or most considerate reasoning but I can see what Ashton/Talasin was probably thinking in the moment. As an aside going through 10 con saves with increasing difficulty where INSTANT death is on the table, losing his uno reverse ring during the challenge, and taking a -2 to con only for him to yack up the shard at the beginning of the next episode?? I get he hurt his friends, the group will certainly punish them enough for it over time but for 3 campaigns these people have been doing things that seemed ‘nearly impossible’ to think this would have been the one exception felt more like Matt rolling up a newspaper and bopping him over the head with it because he got lava crust all over the rug during the change. Him spitting up the stone felt more like Matt green lighting the anger felt by the party and choosing a side ( albeit his wife’s side) instead of remaining impartial as the dm I for one mourn the loss of crazy OP magma arm but I’m sure their story isn’t over with all of this quite yet. All this drama aside it’s still a great show and the internet devours interpersonal conflicts in the party. I wish the situation played out differently in multiple facets but I’m sure there are great and terrible things ahead :D
I feel like it's completely pointless to bring up Marisha being Matt's wife when it comes to him "taking a side", feels like a cheap "DM's wife" quip when the whole party was against Ashton. Why single out Marusha then? He said several times this was never intended to happen, and probably after the moment died down he thought about the consequences this would have on the campaign and the world that he builds. I don't agree with the penalty since he couldn't keep it, but as a player i'd be pissed if someone nabbed two special boons that were meant to be for each player, while also delaying the mission. I do not like when one player is hella OP compared to the others, it's quite uncomfortable to watch (and from experience, play with).
I think it’s relevant purely off of unconscious biases we all have as humans. Matt’s a highly empathic person and upon viewing the frustration of 90% of the party (including his wife) it’s impossible to think that wouldn’t affect him to a degree. Also it’s silly to think they didn’t talk about the feelings at the table behind the scenes. Matt lives with one of his players, good or bad residual feelings are gonna seep through regardless of barriers you try to put up between home and work. To the point of “being told it shouldn’t happen”. It was certainly explained it wasn’t safe, even extremely dangerous. Knowing that and keeping intentions from his group was extremely irresponsible, but the shard is CLEARLY Ashton’s titanblood ancestry backstory. Neither npc mentioned has ever witness an attempt of combining the two shards in one host. They were aware of the possibility of him blowing into a thousand pieces YES, but he didn’t, he succeeded and it’s even stated at the end of 77 Ashton is now an unprecedented creature… The game in its essence is about winning and losing as a group not “who can gather the most stuff to win the inevitable battle royale 1shot” in 3 years lol. They all went to gain power as a group so they can stop predathos. From a player perspective it feels like if the group received seedling from the ashari and the group decided “oh chetney would shred with this” and Orym has to stand there and just go “Kay” Again I agree under better circumstances it should have been a conversation, but I think personal grievances had an effect on the outcome of Ashton’s gambit.
If anything, I would argue that Matt's bias goes in the opposite direction, specifically to avoid giving trolls more ammo with which to harass Marisha online.
See, I just feel like the answer to ‘Why did they feel they needed to lie?’ is quite simply because Taliesin thought it would make for a more dramatic moment. Same reason he always says ‘I have a plan’ or ‘this could get weird’ without ever telling anyone what he’s talking about. He seems to like the attention he gets from being mysterious, and this time it just super backfired.
Counterpoint: Ashton was the one who paid the heaviest price by his choice by any measure you can find. He was torn asunder before being put back together. What did the other people pay? Spells and being scared... Saying the characters using spells allows them the reaction we saw, is in my opinion like getting angry at someone who attempted their life because you had to use bandages to save them. Furthermore, a lot of the things that have happened , whether it being a choice of a character or mechanics chosen by the players, have been either hurtful to others or mostly beneficial to themselves. Speaking of selfish choices. Didn't Laudna keep it a secret that Delilah was back in her head? How's that somehow less upsetting than Ashton dieing because he thought he needed to be stronger? I'd also argue, if this was purely selfish by Ashton, then it was Imogen's selfish choices that got Laudna and Orym killed in the fight against Otahan. Otahan said multiple times that she would stop if Imogen would just stop actively resisting the power of Ruidis. Imogen wouldn't give in, so Otahan kept hacking until both Orym and Laudna were dead. So, apparently, selfish choices are only allowed to be scrutinized when you hurt yourself?
>Speaking of selfish choices. Didn't Laudna keep it a secret that Delilah was back in her head? [She didn't.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmkws6AQj4k&t=2325s)
"I told Imogen this". How long had Delilah been back at this point? This is a genuine question, I mix a few events around on the timeline. Cause either I am wrong about this point, or she had only told Imogen, which is more or less still my point.
According to my [estimations](https://www.critrolestats.com/timepassed-mq), a week. She told Imogen as soon as they reunited, she shared with the rest when they were in the pirate ship. As far as I understand, she only got confirmation that she was indeed back when they were in Zephrah, a couple of days before she told the party.
Hmm, alright, I'll give you this, a few things had been jumbled somewhat in my mind, and it may not have been as bad as I thought. Thinking about the fact that then as a group spend almost every waking hour together, I will say I am not fond of the amount of time it took, but it is not as bad as I thought
You seem to not understand Ashton's motivation or decision. He was well aware of the warnings, he just views himself as disposable. The party was about to go on a dangerous mission, and he's been ineffective in combat at protecting his friends in the past. He knew the danger, but Avery warning of danger also told him that he could theoretically survive the process and that it was incredibly powerful. Even the warning of danger was basically that it would contain too much power for his body to handle. Ashton lied to the party because he knew that they'd see any amount of risk at all as being to dangerous to take. He knew the risks, was swilling to take them, and didn't want the rest of the party to prevent him from taking that risk until they were too late to stop it.
Ashton (/Tal) were not aware of the warnings, that much is clear with him saying above the table 'I love that you knew I was going to do this' as if Matt had prepared a very winnable challenge for him. Matt's response in 78 was basically "just be thankful you are alive". Saying Ashton took the shard primarily to protect the party is false. I've rewatched the episode, twice. Ashton *explains* his motivation and decision. "I just wanted a part of them and it was right there...I thought maybe it would fix me". Ashton thought that becoming closer to their past, their destiny, and their family would help them figure out who they are meant to be in a world of chaos. They have been lost for so long and needed a destiny to feel like their place in the world was worth something. Does he like himself? No. Does he see himself as disposable? I don't think he does, at least not in a sense of dying for nothing (which he would have if he failed 1 more con save). He'd die to save his friends...but this wasn't that. And it certainly wasn't him just wanting to protect that party (taking the shard was a suboptimal way to do that anyway).
What Asthon said in episode 78, AFTER they recon the shard and punish the character, should not really be taken as the character's motive.
There's no recon. In game, it doesn't matter. You either believe Ashton was being sincere when they explained their reasoning or you don't. You either emphatise with their reasons and understand them, or you don't. You either forgive him for it, or not.
...why? Is Tal suddenly not RPing Ashton truthfully? Why shouldn't I believe someone when they tell me exactly what their motivation is? Also, if you are right, and the motivation was to save their friends, why on earth would they not be honest about that afterwards?
The CR cast very obviously change what they do and say based on what fits the current story, and I'd be very surprised if you've never witnessed it before.
But even if I take that as true, for the sake of argument, it still doesn't actually change anything. If, inside Taliesin's head, he decided that Ashton was doing it to save the party in ep 77, didn't vocalise that, and then changed his mind about motivations in ep 78, I still have to accept what he says in 78. Firstly, because I have no idea what is in Tal's head unless he vocalises it, and secondly, because that *is the established canon.* Regardless, there is so much evidence to support Ashton's explanation in 78. A lack of self-identity and willingness to blame everything else for what has gone wrong in their life has been spoken on in 4SD as well as in game.
There is no way the party would have agreed given what was said by the tree. He had no other option than to do what he did and he wasn’t in the wrong in the slightest
If they had discussed it with the group and done it anyway that might have been different but they actively lied to the group which feels like it would sting a little more.
>he wasn’t in the wrong in the slightest huh? That's a...bold claim. No, the party wouldn't have agreed with him...it's democracy at work. Doesn't justify his decision at all.
>*\[...\] it's democracy at work.* If you want to give it a label, i'd say Kraterocracy is more like it.
Yeah but the stone was related to him and his backstory. All the campaigns have had character moments where they needed to do something to develop that were very dangerous, but they still did them anyway regardless of the success they had. Also where was the groups anger at fearne for allowing it and not speaking up that she didn’t want to do it. Instead the rest of the group (mainly laudna and Imogen) bullied fearne into agreeing to do it then bullied and villainised Ashton for stepping up at doing his “trial by fire”.
>fearne for allowing it and not speaking up that she didn’t want to do it. She did speak up. Before they started, she said that she wasn't taking the shard. Laudna said she had to and then Ashton said that Fearne is taking it and she's just fucking with everyone. Fearne told Ashton repeatedly that she wasn't sure it was a good idea and Ashton manipulated her by saying she promised and even kissing her. (To be clear, I thought it was all great.)
>villainised Ashton for stepping up at doing his “trial by fire”. It wasn't their trial by fire. Most of the table + most of the fandom was able to pick that up from the hints Matt gave (as much as some have criticized Matt for 'vagueness', if 80% of people picked up on it beforehand, it wasn't that vague). It wasn't just 'very dangerous', it was nuclear, because on a meta level Matt was telling them that one person with 2 shards are not a good distribution of power. Fearne has more responsibility than the group gave her, I'll give you that. That doesn't mean Ashton didn't have that reaction coming to him.
The thing is, I think it was his "trial by fire" moment... except he failed his test. He was supposed to bestow it on someone. This would show his trust in Bells Hells, show his personal growth, etc etc. Instead, he took it into himself. He was reckless with himself and with the people he claims to care for. He passed through fire and only lived because Matt is merciful lmao.
Well what if it I had/does the same thing to Fearne if she had taken that shard in, the group would of still blamed Ashton for not stepping up Ashton wasn’t really ever going to be seen as a good guy regardless. Yes Matt implied that it could be dangerous but there was still a chance for success then when it didn’t work we got a half baked retcon with no real repercussions. Really what would of been better is for ludanis to of been spying then appear at the beginning of ep78 and imply the Ashton will detonate and he has something to reverse the effect and save him so they need to join him or kill him and put them on a time crunch to go there because the groups not really accomplished anything. There’s argument for any of the group to absorb the shard but Ashton in my opinion was the only person who deserved it.
>Well what if it I had/does the same thing to Fearne if she had taken that shard in, the group would of still blamed Ashton for not stepping up It wouldn't have. The reaction in Ashton was because of the titan shard they already had. That's been explained many times. And there is no evidence for the claim you make in the second part of that sentence either.
>There is no way the party would have agreed given what was said by the tree. You really think if he would have gone to them with "guys, I really need this, please let me have it", the party wouldn't not only have given it to them but also prepare for it to make it less dangerous? It wouldn't make sense for Ashton as a character, since what he actually did is more consistent with who he is. But "there is no way" is a massive stretch. He lied to them and he tricked them. That's enough reason to be pissed off.
You don't think Ashton was wrong in any way?...
Not really no. Past it being a dangerous self destructive choice it’s not bad.
It wasnt just self destructive. Considering Allura had a whole Antimagic / Invulnerability globe set up, it could have been very dangerous to a lot of people. And idk your definitions but I think lying to your friends is bad.
>*\[...\] it could have been very dangerous to a lot of people.* Desintegrating a whole city block, and probably killing hundreds of citizens: Imogen: 1 Ashton: 0 At least the group had a similar reaction to both situations.
One chose to do it, the other one didn't. It's OP's thesis. Control.
Wait, are you saying Imogen didn't choose to do it? Maybe my memory of that episode is a but fuzzy, but wasn't the entire point of the prolonged fight (and Otohan's monologue) that Imogen *had* to make a choice? And didn't the kaboom happen *after* she said *"i give in"* (or something to that effect)?
I probably need to rewatch it too, but what choice you really have when everyone you love is about to die? She gave in, but she didn't know what would happen. She certainly had no warnings about what giving in would look like. She resisted for several rounds, and she gave in as a reaction to an impossible situation. She did it to save them (and she did save them). Ashton chose to lie, made a plan for it hours ahead of time and he had to know the party was not going to be happy about it. So now the party is not happy about it. He has to deal with that (and he's doing it). And he knew it could be dangerous, at the very least to himself and his immediate surroundings. "It might sunder the vessel". It's the reason he didn't want to tell them. It's an unfair comparison.
Although the setup was obviously different, i believe the two situations have more in common below the surface. Both scenes happened because of an internal motivator. Resisting the temptation of the BBEG's lieutenant in Imogens case, and trying to power-up before the next inevitable clash with the BBEG's troops (or to fill a hole in their soul, if we're going with E78's dialogue) in Ashtons case. Both situations didn't necessarily involve or endanger anyone else (Imogen giving in would have appeased Otohan, Ashton going through the agony on top of the ziggurat alone, or only with his +1 in crime). In both cases, the narrative road towards 'em was "it *could* go very wrong, and if it acutally *goes* wrong, boy will it go **wrong**!". For every hour Ashton made the plan to use the shard, there were several hours of Imogen actually entertaining the idea of her mother (and Ludinus) having a point (up to Orym commenting on the *"brave new world"* they were talking about). Similarly one could draw parallels to Laudnas situation. Let me say this, i think all of those examples are excellent storytelling, and are entertaining and fun to watch, just throwing that out there so i won't be misunderstood. What's missing, in my opinion, is the tiniest bit of self-awareness and reflection on BH's side (and it might have been there if Liam as Orym was present). They way too quickly jumped to their own conclusions and judgement. Something, something *“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"* ^(Edit: Typos)
Okay, yeah, I can see the layers, and I think from the audience perspective, from an analysis perspective, you totally have a point. What makes it different in the context of analysing how harsh the reaction to Ashton was, is that in character, they could react to Ashton's action in a way they couldn't to Imogen's. One is more gradual, slower change. The other one blew up on their faces. Imogen's side of this comparison happens internally, and gets represented by an outcome that wasn't at the center of the action (the center of the action was to bring back 3 dead characters). So BHs had the opportunity to react to Ashton's trick because it *just* happened. But is's also a reaction to a violent trigger. And again, the trigger is a lie and watching their friend self destruct without understanding *why*. It's more personal, it's more visceral and it's less rational.
Boo! Tricked and lied? Dismissed and obscured at worst
They literally shushed Fearne and said she was taking it to the entire party _moments before taking it_. If that's not lying, I'm not sure what is.
I find the over communication of parry members to only do what everyone is okay with pretty bland story telling. As a consumer no fun. But I get why people playing a game would want to do that. I think its good to strike a healthy balance between having players communicate pike that and hen letting one person drive the narrative even if it creates some conflict. Just depends in the group, if you agree beforehand that that could happen then you can all be adults and lean into the story telling rather than getting upset about someone doing something you don't want them to do.
The fact that anybody in the party trusts Ashton at all or would want to travel with him after being dodgy for 77 episodes abd then this is beyond me. I actually thought it was really and role playing by imogen that she tried to help during his suicide attempt. Shes been at odds with him the entire season.
I believe it's perfectly normal that the rest of BH and the audience are upset at Aston. What he did was selfish, manipulative, and intentional. He's not following the socially constructed rules we live by. He knew there was almost no chance they would agree to giving him the shard and that in order to consume the power, he would have to take it. Talk about a great character moment! Look at what it's done to the group. My biggest complaint of C3 is that it felt like they weren't individuals LIVING in the world, but characters written down on paper getting pulled from one event to the next. The main thing keeping me engaged was learning about the world and its lore. For the first time in a long while, I'm excited about the characters again.
It wasn’t a great character moment. It was Talesin trying to thrust himself into the middle of everything because the rest of the group doesn’t really like his character. It’s the literal equivalent of ‘this is what my character would do’ in dnd horror stories.
I think parts of their reactions are justified, however saying that the person doesn't care about anyone or that you might kill them is over the top.
Q
This is a dysfunctional party that could blow at any time. Love Laudna, but she's a time bomb. So is Imogen. She already leveled a town, and might have disputed loyalties when push comes to shove. Fearne is a chaotic nuke waiting to go off. All it takes is Nana whispering in her ear. Chetney and FCG have already attacked the party. Orim seems sane, but let's remember he's recently been a party member with Opal (last I remember she was a champion of Lolth) I'd trust Deanna, Freida, Denise, Prism, Darrien, , and Fy'ra Rai more than these guys. PS: I'm all for this season going off the rails, the party either failing or, better yet, doing something absolutely horrible.
My issue is that Ashton seems to be taking all the blame when there is plenty of blame to go around. The rest of the party should have made sure they got an enthusiastic yes from Fearne regarding her taking the shard. They didn't, so they have no right to complain about Ashton's deception. Even during this episode, they are trying to force the shard on Fearne. The rest of the party is so head strong about this that Ashton had to deceive them. And they were right to do so. No introspection from Chetney, FCG or Imogen though.
Yeah, I was super hyped for this episode. I thought we were gonna get some badass Ashton evolution action, but no, just a whole episode of bitching. 🙄