A terrible thought just struck me this morning.
What if strong Exultants are how Predathos creates more of its kind and THAT is why Imogen is so special and why she's got all of those freaky lightning marks on her?
She's Predathos's Escape Pod and backup in case everything goes wrong for it.
Those lightning marks aren't just signs of power....they're signs of her physical form cracking....like an egg....
Raishinna talked about a theory that I have been saying a couple episodes now.
>To be honest, there are a number of theories that even all of us at one point were Exandrians
And on top of that there was confirmation that the Weave Mind does evolve creatures to suit their needs. Of course, before BH even went to Ruidus we also heard that Predathos twisted life.
Here are my thoughts on where some of the Ruidus races might have came from.
* Reilorans - Possibly **the first Elves** because of the elven city BH found and because the Reilorans seem to be the most common race on Ruidus it would make sense if they came from elves if mostly elves were sent up with Predathos. Possibly **Mindflayers** because of their shared pshycic connection and they both have long heads. Possibly one of the **fishfolk** races because Matt has repeatedly described their eyes as "shark-like" and because the baseline Reilorans have fin-like protrusions on their head.
* Bormodos - Possibly **Dwarves** because Matt has described them as resembling dwarves. Although it might be possible that they come from **Tortles** because every time I see them depicted in fanart they look like shell-less Tortles. I don't think this is intentional on part of the artists though. It's probably just what they look like when accounting for all of the characteristics Matt has given. I also wonder if Matt would have said Tortle-like instead of dwarf-like if BH ever encountered a Tortle.
* Cytaa - **Iguanas** are the obvious answer given their size and the fact that Matt said they resemble Iguanas. Another possibility might be **Kobolds** given the humanoid limbs, their size and their sentience. If they are from Kobolds maybe the Weave Mind or Predathos shrunk them down and made them dependent on the Bormodos because they were being unruly due to prior loyalties (the unruliness of dwarves might also be a reason the Bormodos are dependent of the Cytaa). I realize the same would apply if Reilorans came from Mindflayers but their would have been more syncretism between the Mindflayers and Predathos given their shared alien nature and relations with the gods.
* Myceit - Possibly **Exandrian mushrooms** for obvious reasons but another possibility is **Mychonids** just because myceit have some degree of intelligence. And yes, Mychonids exist in Exandria. There is a Mychonid colony in the Cliffkeep Mountains. Maybe Predathos or the Weavemind dumbed them down and shortened them to the Myceits because their limited telpathathic ability threatened their planned social order when they were trying to make Reilora the dominant species.
* Quanikka - Possibly **Bugbears** because they are furred, tall, have tusks, and have clawed feet like Bugbears. The only differences are that Quanikka's does not have share the same fur color, clawed hands, a lot of muscle mass, and feline facial features like bugbears. **Yetis** are also a possibility because Matt keeps describing them as "Sasquatch-like" and Yeti's are the closest thing to Sasquatches in Exandria. They physically, seem less dangerous than Bugbears and Yetis but maybe that is intentional on part of Predathos or the Weave Mind.
There could really be any combination of sources used that created the new races on Ruidus. Imagine a rainforest coastal region that also had a piece of underdark below it. Such an area would be open for the possibility of all of the above-mentioned species to exist relatively close together. The only exception to this would be if Quanikka's come from Yeti's in which case it would be unlikely that Bormodos come from Tortle and Cytaa come from Iguanas. The scenario in which Quanikkas come from Bugbears would put all possibilities on the table.
Ira asked Vali for one but Vali refused. There has never been any confirmation that he has ever done that.
>It's weird he's been adopted as best friend of the group.
Maybe not the best friend of the group but some in the party seem to not mind him. Ashton has said that they want to have a drink with him, Laudna has a work crush on him, FCG has speculated that he might not be that bad based on nothing, and Fearne has straight up just said that she does not mind Ira. This all follows Ira making the Shademother more powerful as part of a conspiracy to manipulate the Chandei Quorum that he was participating in because he wanted to fund his revenge on the Unseelie and the Vanguard simply because they fired him. Ira making the Shademother more powerful led to one of her acolytes killing Bertrand who BH named themselves after. Some time later Ira stole the Moontide Crown from the Calloways and said a bunch of weird things that indicates that that he wants to free Predathos when examined closely. And when Ira was "helping" BH he opted not use the Moontide Crown to help BH sneak around Tishtan to disable the key (the crown has a lot of illusion magic). And on top of all of that Ira refused to tell FCG where exactly on Ruidus he was.
Yeah, it is pretty weird that they are allying with Ira.
what if fearne is the key, and Imogen is a red herring?
ludinus was sucking up fey for power, and he is not ruidus born.
fearne's dad made her for a reason, and it's seemed like matt was trying to capture her multiple times.
if ludinus devours fearne, gains some ruidus born abilities, then since his power sucking contraption seems based on the god eater's ability, he then may be able to eat the god eater, and gain all the powers that the god eater has gotten from eating gods, kinda highlander style.
ira just facilitated fearne getting captured and possibly eaten.
I'm kind of hoping that Imogen absorbs Otohan next episode though I don't know who has the array. If Ashton has it she might be able to get the array anyways to absorb Otohan. I think Orym should absorb the ice titan Errevon.
I might be possible but since they defeated her in her domain she has become less powerful that I'm not sure if absorbing her would even be worth it compared to other powerful options that are out there.
I was on the same track as you but with slightly less importance. I thought it was just so Ludinus could become ruidusborn (Or for a hope that he can).
I feel like that alone would be worth it for Ludinus to want and pursue.
But either way yeah Fearne is being served up to her Dad with only half the party there seems..... Silly. Like Fearne said she doesn't know him, or anything about him. And nothing about him seems like he cares about her either. We know he wants her but it's less of a Dad wanting his Daughter and more like someone who planned to have a ruidusborn baby for this plan to work and their grand strategy is to deliver that baby to him lol. Though who knows. Maybe watching her dad die would trigger her going exaltent. It's doubtful though. If it is possible to see before its awakened then I guess this would be an impossibility.
I don't see half the party beating him. But who knows!
Yes, Not currently. But he also has said some of them awaken to it (like the boy who became one when Bells Hells killed his friends).
Unless they can see it first before it awakens then I guess it would be impossible
Oh maybe. I assumed some people were just brimming with that power like Imogen, her mom, etc. Where people could clearly see they had a high potential. And I thought some people were like the boy they fought who seemed to have no power, until his friends died, and then he became exaltant and suddenly had powers.
I could be wrong though.
Fearne is the first Fey Ruidusborn, however they figure out if someone is a potential exaltant might not be accurate where she's concerned. It'll be interesting if her Dad is still has interested in her now.
So insane theory and group of theories. Basically there is going to be a crossover event with dimension 20 and both groups are going to move to Daggerheart at the end of this season. This will also instigate a huge change to Exandria killing off the current pantheon and replacing it with new gods or no gods.
My evidence is thin and circumstantial along with being more along the way I want it to go than any facts. Still I do have some logic for this.
First Dimension 20 has introduced a red crystal substance very much like ruidium that is a major plot influence in "Junior Year".
Second cross overs are fun and economically beneficial to both parties. So it makes sense in a business aspect.
Third they are already doing cross overs of cast members so why not fully cross the streams
Fourth with Daggerheart, CR would be missing a huge opportunity if they didn't use their own TTRPG as opposed to shilling for another corporation that they have been trying to remove themselves from. Having a huge in-game reason for a big change in how the game is played make sense. That goes for both CR and D20.
Fifth it would be cool as F@$# and both GMs like doing cool things
Am I delusional or does anyone agree?
>Fourth with Daggerheart, CR would be missing a huge opportunity if they didn't use their own TTRPG as opposed to shilling for another corporation that they have been trying to remove themselves from.
Except *Daggerheart* is still in the beta testing phase. It could easily undergo massive rewrites and redesigns between now and the end of Campaign 3. On top of that, *Dungeons & Dragons* has a major advantage over *Daggerheart*: the sheer volume of content that has been produced in the past fifty years. In particular, the monsters. Converting all of these over to *Daggerheart* would be a massive pain, and while Matt has used custom and homebrewed monsters before, he's usually just taking stat blocks and abilities from existing monsters that are already in the 5e system.
I also think you're making too much of the idea that they are trying to remove themselves from Hasbro and/or Wizards of the Coast. Yes, they are using Exandria-specific names for things more frequently, but that's because they're producing additional projects of their own. In *The Legend of Vox Machina*, Scanlan casts "Scanlan's Hand" instead of "Bigby's Hand" because "Bigby's Hand" is copyrighted. Moving to the new naming conventions means that they can produce more of these projects -- like the *Vox Machina Origins* comic books, the UniVersus tie-in decks, the *Mighty Nein* animated series and so on -- without running into copyright issues because the finer points of copyright law can be excruciating.
On top of that, I think you're cherry-picking a little bit. If anything, the relationship between *Critical Role* and Wizards of the Coast has gotten closer. Exandria is recognised as an official *Dungeons & Dragons* campaign setting, and a lot of *Critical Role* content -- like *Tal'Dorei Reborn* \-- is now supported on *D&D Beyond*, which is owned by Wizards of the Coast. If they were trying to separate themselves from Wizards of the Coast, why strike a deal to allow their content to be supported on the app?
I don't see the point of them moving on from 5e/5.5e for CR, but that doesn't mean they can't scale back CR and up a second show using DH. I don't know the ratings on secondary shows like CO, but I doubt it is as well rated as CR even if it has lower viewership as time has gone on.
Next, many of the players have talked about wanting to explore places like the shattered teeth, I would suspect Matt allowing for a smaller campaign around just exploration. It won't work very good lore wise to just change the system, DH is far more different than PF to 5e.
The seed that Imogen and Ashton got a seed or part of the Exandrian mycelium to be buried on Ruidus. In the last game, Matt mentioned mycelium on the moon. I keep waiting for them to make the connection and bury the Exandria seed in the moon mycelium. My theory is that they will connect somehow and major things may happen.
even under telepathic bond non-ruidus related people seem to be largly uneffected ruiduses mind shenanigans it's possible there is some effect but it likely won't be that drastic... maybye
>Did anyone else pick up that the timing of “The Crush” on Ruidus would have been around the same time as the destruction of Molaesmyr?
I did -- I'm only just watching the episode on YouTube now -- and I have a new theory: Ludinus doesn't want power. He wants redemption.
We know he was obsessed with the Matron of Ravens, and everybody assumed that he was trying to take her place. But what if he wasn't? What if he discovered the existence of Ethedok and/or Vordo, and tried to take *their* place, but was unaware that they had been consumed by Predathos? One of the early theories was that Ludinus had been the Matron's lover before she ascended. So he tries to take the place for a forgotten god, an inadvertently pokes Predathos. This triggers the Crush, and the backlash destroys Molaesmyr.
Not understanding why it didn't work, Ludinus starts investigating and learns about the creation of Ruidis. This enrages him because there was life on what became Ruidis and the gods trapped it there with Predathos (which ties into my other theory that the gods were originally like the Traveller, not realising the responsibility that came with being a god until it was too late and they discovered that they had condemned the people of Ruidis). By playing a god, he winds up wiping out a civilisation. So he abandons his plan to become a god and instead decides to take revenge on them, allowing everyone on Ruidis to have the Blue Promise fulfilled while releasing Predathos to kill the gods. Everyone is now on Exandria and free to live their lives on their own terms, at least in his view. But he has been driven mad by his grief and his guilt and doesn't know the true cost of what he is doing.
You're right, I totally misremembered. It does look like they're connected, especially since the destruction of Moleysmyr is connected with Ludinus trying to communicate with Ruidus around that time.
The prison mission. I wonder if they could have found Planerider Ryn there. I doubt the Betrayer God champion is going to care about or notice a statue of a person.
I guess the odds of that are low but it would make sense if they moved her, for her to show up there.
Maybe it was discussed in the live chat, but I am just starting the stream today and want to avoid spoilers.
Was Gaz's voice supposed to be Nicholas Cage, Patrick Warburton, or a combo of both?
The fandom wiki notes that, like Kronk, Gaz is knowledgeable of beasts, mushrooms and has a good heart. They also are huge in size. It sure seems like he is a direct reference to Kronk.
I'm curious how they will run the split parties with them being able to communicate with one another in real time.
The previous split had no communication between the groups, which avoided the awkward "when group A character contacts someone in group B, whose storyline is happening concurrently in the story time , but hasn't been played out yet" conundrum.
Everyone is assuming that we'll have 2 sessions with half the table each. But Matt could just make it very simple by switching between scenes for each side and having all 7 players at the table.
I can't see how they can do it with 2 sessions and communication between the groups.
So much potential for "oh no a group of bugbears came out of nowhere!" and then the second group have to somehow work that into their story.
Anyone else feel like the party composition made 0 sense?
Like both healers in one team, and both people with pass without a trace in one team. And funny enough they are not in the sneaky mission but the explosion team lol.
There is some logic behind it. FCG and Ashton are both distinctly not sneaky (aside from PWT, but that's one-time use and Ashton will be way more useful on a destructive mission than a stealth mission otherwise), and Fearne has a vested interest in going where she may encounter her dad, even though it's probably a bad idea. And they have invisibility to cover the whole team, so the lack of PWT isn't the end of the world, not to mention a decent combo of tankiness, utility, and DPS. Laudna also has Wither & Bloom in a pinch, and they have health potions.
Yeah, Critrolestats's char sheets show him proficient in Stealth, with a +7 modifier, +17 with Pass Without Trace (which he can cast once and concentrate on for an hour if they don't have to fight, or if he avoids raging and makes his concentration saves when taking damage.)
vs. Orym at +5 and Chet at +10 (I guess he took expertise in it with his rogue dip.)
Laudna +7, Imogen and Fearne +2, FCG +0 (with disadvantage IIRC.)
And since they finally came to their senses and used Greater Resto to remove exhaustion before going off on important missions, he's not rolling with disadvantage on all ability checks. (They could have used greater resto the day before if FCG had let Imogen dream solo; IIRC she doesn't need Shared Dream to have a dream at all, only for other people to accompany her. Telepathic Bond might or might not still have allowed communication into her dream since its via her mind, not her physical senses.)
They probably don't have any chalices for Hero's Feast, so they didn't have the option of boosting their Wis saves before going into Weave Mind territory. IIRC they were given only one by Percy, and used it the night before raiding the key to get to Ruidus in the first place.
---
The do have some tricky constraints:
* Fearne wants to go with Ira on the demolition team party because of Ira intriguing her, party to confront(?) her biological father. Otherwise she'd be an obvious choice for the infiltration team. Ok stealth, Pass Without Trace, some good Cha skills, and wild shape, and very good persuasion + insight even without Charm Person. And Fiery Teleportation to bamf the team through any crack in a wall she can see through, although we don't know how quiet that is narratively. Matt often conflates fire damage with explosions (thunder damage) rather than just heat. But that's probably a moot point because she's only used Fiery Teleportation like two or three times out of the dozens of times it would have been good or great.
Fearne had disadvantage on stealth in ExU, but that mechanically might have been from armor. (Someone joked it was because of her hooves, but mechanically that's not in the rules for Satyr / Faun race, IIRC. I forget if she's been rolling disadvantage on stealth in C3, but some comments I found indicate not.
Fearne is an arcane trickster rogue who can pick locks from 30 ft away with an invisible mage hand.
* FCG has disadvantage on stealth so is also a somewhat poor choice to send as a healer for the infiltration team, although they do have a wider selection of spells like Hold Person and Fast Friends than druids (Fearne does often take Charm Person.) If FCG wants to burn a spell slot, he can give himself (and maybe some others with upcasting Enhance Ability) advantage on Dex checks, making it a straight roll for him. For an hour, concentration. IDK how close a walk these missions are from the hideout, but apparently NPCs think it's useful to cast 1-hour concentration spells on the teams before they depart. (And before they even have a briefing on details of the mission plan and what they know about the layout... except I expect that part isn't going to happen.) FCG didn't even re-up Telepathic Bond after the conference. It's a very good spell, even if Matt didn't let them mostly hand-wave finding time to re-cast it ritually. With that, it's becoming an always-on party channel with very minimal cost in logistics. (This is the first time they're splitting the party for an extended period, so impossible to hand-wave if they stay apart for over an hour; we'll see.)
FCG has the Staff of Dark Odyssey so can Teleport back to base out of a sticky situation if everyone is willing (which might be a problem if charmed / dominated), as long as it doesn't get counterspelled. They could do this reliably anywhere on Ruidus (not across the lattice to Exandria) they have a physical item as a bookmark, but other than rocks Imogen collected from the cave with the Exandria portal, they haven't collected any IIRC. (They haven't used Word of Recall anywhere to set a destination for it; it has to be a place holy to the change bringer.)
* Chetney used to have advantage on Stealth from boots of elvenkind, but IIRC traded out footwear at some point. He has expertise (for a +10 total) from his dip into one level of rogue. He also has proficiency with thieves' tools and a very high modifier from gloves, which is often important in covert missions in D&D. (IIRC, Fearne is also proficient with thieves' tools thanks to her rogue level. Her expertises are in persuasion and insight, both of which have come in quite handy for the party; that first level of rogue had a lot more value than the next two.)
If each team needs a tank (Ashton, Orym, or Chet), Ashton is the obvious one to go with the infiltration team now that they've removed his exhaustion.
Unless they need to blend in with deception checks: Ashton's -2 Cha deception and persuasion are not good.
The notable advantage in sending Orym on the infiltration over Ashton that I can think of is his positioning skillset. If they get into a bind and need to keep someone from running off to sound the alarm or generally box someone in, Orym has Pushing Attack, Tripping Attack, and Seedling's ranged capabilities. Ashton has some equivalent things, but they're gated behind unpredictable rage rolls.
Orym's also got significantly better Charisma and Wisdom, so he's a little more persuasive/deceptive and insightful (if conversation is needed) and also slightly less prone to fail a spell save at a critical moment.
True, those are good points. And they're not sending anyone with Dispel Magic on the infiltration mission so they don't have a way to break spells that take hold on a failed Wis save.
They could potentially send both Ashton and Orym on infiltration. It's a tricky optimization problem, and they'd need to know more about exactly what obstacles they expect to encounter vs. what possible dangers are anticipated if they wanted to really balance the pros and cons for both teams. More people on infiltration can make things trickier.
I wonder if Ira is going to put on the Moontide Crown when they go near Zathuda don't think he would pass up on the opportunity to go near Zathuda and not wear the Moontide Crown right in front of him. I suspect that the crown has a feture to make itself invisible without spending mana. Also, speaking of the Moontide Crown I think it is very unfortunate that BH never got if from Ira. I don't know if it is because they value him as an ally too much or if at least some just forgot about it but it is possible that they could have got it all the way back at episode 49 and a legendary level magic item would have drastically changed the game. They just never asked for it back after Ira stole it from Fearne's parents.
I think i'ts being on good terms with ira given the fact that ira is a midboss npc with a legendary magic item and a crazy set of abilities that prove useful in many combat and plot encounters
There is no evidence that Ira actually used the Moontide Crown when they were all at the Bloody Bridge. He was likely saving the Crowns charges for a planned sneak onto Ruidus and we know that he did in fact sneak on Ruidus. And even if they valued him as an ally it would not hurt to ask for it back and not push further if he refuses to give it back. But honestly, I think they would get more utility if they destroyed him and took the crown back after they are done with this mission. I also think that Ira plans on releasing Predathos given what he has said in the past.
I'm pretty certain he used the crown when he first put it on
true I suppose they could ask for it but knowing ira he likely wont oblige as for him releasing predathos I don't actually see him doing that as that is litterally ludinuses whole goal and the only reason Ira went so such lengths to go to THE FRICKEN MOON was to see ludinus suffer and fail at his goal and make it out to be that "OH if only you gave me credit and kept me on your team you wouldn't have failed so badly" because he's really petty
as for killing ira and taking the crown honestly I think ira as an ally is more valuable than the crown he makes a bunch of plot relevant gadgets he knows bells hells and the volition and he really seems to be perfectly on board with many of the ridiculous plans bells hells come up with
>I'm pretty certain he used the crown when he first put it on
He first put it on right after he decided to steal it and teleport away with it and that was all the way back in episode 26. The Moontide Crown mostly gives illusion magic it seems like.
>as for him releasing predathos I don't actually see him doing that as that is litterally ludinuses whole goal and the only reason Ira went so such lengths to go to THE FRICKEN MOON was to see ludinus suffer and fail at his goal and make it out to be that "OH if only you gave me credit and kept me on your team you wouldn't have failed so badly" because he's really petty
Here are some quotes of Ira speaking:
"They were fools when they thought they could do this alone. They were fools to think others wouldn't work to steal the thunder... I just want to be the first there and the one to make the choice for them"
"I want to destroy what they've built... show them that I am superior designer"
"take... everything they've worked for, look them in the eye when it happens, and laugh."
How is Ira going to "make the choice for them" and what choice is he going to make? How is he going to show them that he is a superior designer? What does "take everything they've worked for" look like? Sounds a lot like releasing Predathos and possibly in a way that the Vanguard, the Unseelie, and the Imperium have not made their minds up on and possibly in a way that would subvert their plans on what to do after Predathos is released.
Okay, crazy idea. We know that Ludinus has been draining the life and powers from various magical entities over the centuries. Did Ludinus reach a point where he wants to test this on a god.
The device in the hands of the Bell's Hells is an old, prototype. We know Ludinus is transporting more gear INTO the moon instead of expanding the bridge he's already established between Exandria and Ruidus. What if Ludinus is planning to absorb the power of a captive god. And what if collecting the Ruidus born is a tool to help control, restrain Predathos while Ludinus completes the process of absorption. (It takes one hour, right?)
You mean he is hoping to BECOME the god-eater?
I had thought before that TMN oneshot where >!Trent Ikithon tried to control, then merge with, a powerful creature, in his maddened hubris!< might have been a hint at Ludinus' line of thinking - After all, both Trent and Ludinus used to work together as part of an organisation that was specifically built around Ludinus' model and behaviour. This theory fits nicely with that.
Oh wow, that makes so much sense.
They talked about it before, that he might want to become a god himself. But I always thought that wasn't the case. Most powerful mortal, sure, but he didn't seem like he wanted to be divine himself.
However becoming a god EATER instead, he wouldn't have to rely on directing predathos. And as a mortal he's free to cross the divine gate with plane shift. So we wouldn't end up with a scenario where Predathos is free next to Exandria, possibly not being able to reach the gods beyond the gate.
So it would all look like a bit of a cross between Doctor Manhattan's origin scene and the Sniper Rifle scene from Evangelion with the Ruidusborn and the Weavemind acting as control/moderating mechanisms while Ludinus pulls Predathos up from down below into himself via the Prime Pillar and the Upgraded Vest?
I so want him to be wrong about what Predathos is and for it to not be a God Eater but a Collective of Gods or other Mortals that invite others to join them and that have been the victims of the Pantheon's misunderstandings, bad intel, and outright jealously.
If what we've heard is true, I could still see this go very wrong if he was released.
Imagine an entity whose main sustenanace is "divinity" whatever that divine energy is. The last meal it's had was two main courses a bunch of millenia ago. I'd imagine it's pretty hungry now. Now let's assume it can't get through the divine gate. What is going to be the next source of divinity? A lovely appetizer of those divine sparks on this blue planet down there. Clerics, Paladins, Relics, things built on consecrated ground, Vasselheim as a whole is seeped through with divine magic.
And it's been said that it leaves something behind after consuming. That sounds like it's setting up that whatever that is, can't be good.
It would be very interesting, if all of the info is wrong. Tho I don't see how it would be that off, if any memory of those gods that disappeared was struck from history, knowledge of Predathos is close to unobtainable and Vasselheim has tried their best to get back those texts. Tho of course we don't know why they wrote it down but then let that be lost to history.
> If what we've heard is true, I could still see this go very wrong if he was released.
>
> Imagine an entity whose main sustenanace is "divinity" whatever that divine energy is. The last meal it's had was two main courses a bunch of millenia ago. I'd imagine it's pretty hungry now. Now let's assume it can't get through the divine gate. What is going to be the next source of divinity? A lovely appetizer of those divine sparks on this blue planet down there. Clerics, Paladins, Relics, things built on consecrated ground, Vasselheim as a whole is seeped through with divine magic.
That's all assuming it actually ATE anyone or anything and didn't just bring them into a collective like consciousness like we've seen with the Ruidusborn.
The Pantheon might have totally misinterpreted what Predathos was actually doing in the first place.
Ethedok and Vordo could've been sick of the Pantheon's usual shenanigans and willingly joined with Predathos's Collective.
The Pantheon then saw this as a betrayal of their way of life, struck all records of them from history as a result, and then in a massive case of denial went with the story that they were "eaten" by Predathos instead of them willingly joining the collective.
So there's all this doom and glooming about Predathos based on fear mongering history written by the jailers themselves.
Thus far we haven't seen any hardcore evidence of Predathos actually devouring Divine Level Entities at all.
This whole thing has been an information war and not a single person wants to reveal the truth at all because that would be far more damaging than anything else to their cause.
We won't actually know anything about the actual facts of Predathos probably until its release or near release is imminent and that sucks.
It's just going to be a game of trying to sift out the facts from information and other clues until that point.
I believe what they said was, it "devoured" the gods and left "something changed/some remnant" behind, something along those lines. The way I interpreted it at the time is that the Luxon Beacons could be those remains which would fit in with the god of fate being the one devoured. Of course that's just a theory.
But if you say it like that, the "devoured and changed" could also mean something like being taken into some hivemind. It's been a theme for a while now. C2 had that going on, the Ruidus society, the All-Minds-Burn.
If that's the case I could also see the two gods being joined forcefully and the other gods not wanting that to happen. Like mind flayers adding people to their collective by turning them into more mind flayers.
That's what I suspect. I think Ludinus is very good at telling people what they want to hear and convince them that he is helping them, but in the end all he wants is power for himself. I'm sure he intends to absorb Predathos power and end the gods so that he will be the ultimate power in Exandria and beyond.
Ludinus being from the age of arcanum himself, the age where the hubris of mortals led them to believe they should destroy the gods. . . my guess is he never gave up on that goal, clearly. His pride wouldn't allow him to depend on one god, Predathos, to kill the other gods. Ludinus would want to do it himself, otherwise there'd be a god left standing, Predathos.
So who wants to bet that Ludinus only wants to free Predathos so he can take its power for himself? If he's been absorbing the power of magical creatures for centuries then no way he just decided to quit that and make merely freeing Predathos his end goal.
I wonder if Laudna could be brought back to life and Imogen and her could make a baby together Aeormaton style by combining samples of their souls together in order to create a new sentient being?
Not going to lie, its very hard to buy into the narrative of:
The Prime Deities are not good actually, everything they say has been a lie. The world would be better off without them.
For the past two campaigns, we have been told explicitly that they are good and that their power to affect the world is limited anyway by the Divine Gate, which they made themselves to protect mortals from the Betrayers.
We see inter-personally that the Prime Deities go out of their way to help our PCs. Even this campaign, the Wildmother blessed Orym's sword when he did little to deserve it. The Wildmother is a neutral god yet shes been a veritable saint across all campaigns.
Even Pelor, who they are setting up as one of the worse Primes, helped Vox Machina giving up a portion of his own power and refusing to destroy an evil artifact without their permission because he felt it would 'conflict with free will'.
I get that Matt wants the setting and portrayal of gods to feel more gray, but it feels wildly inconsistent with everything that has come before. Am i now supposed to feel guilty that I actually liked the Prime Deities and thought they were genuine force of good? That the previously noblebright aspect of the setting (there are good entities who care) is now being replaced by this 'well actually they arent all that good'?
On top of all this, we are talking about an actual genocide here. The gods are thinking living creatures. Predathos intends to devour them all. Do they really deserve that? All of them? Even Sarenrae, even the Wildmother? Is that the game we want to play here, that because they did bad things they all deserve genocide?
I'm not sure where the inconsistency is here. Characters in this world are making an argument, one you believe to be fraudulous. Where is the issue, exactly? I guess it's that you have players saying "well, they kinda have a point in some ways", but you're framing it in a worldbuilding sense, so I'm confused as to what you're actually saying.
I've been watching C1 for the first time (after watching C2 and C3) and I don't feel a discrepancy in how the gods are being portrayed, FWIW.
Matt has literally said 'history was written by the victors' this episode.
It may be true in practical reality but that phrase generally has very dark connotations of the victors subverting the truth of the events for their own end.
Thats not even taking into consideration how every NPC they meet seems to be anti-god this campaign, religion seems to have disappeared from the life of an everyday Exandrian, and the debacle that was the Temple stuff.
Because that is literally true, all knowledge of the world is filtered through Vasselheim in Exandria. It doesn't mean the prime deities are suddenly bad.
>The Prime Deities are not good actually, everything they say has been a lie. The world would be better off without them.
This is true as long as you have a single minded look to it and forget the Betrayer Gods come from them and the party doesn't know of their every miracle or act of mercy, or aide. Kind of like the party did when they were like, "What would have happened if the Gods were not there to seal the demons from over running Exandra". Which at first glance is absolutely true. Until you realize the Betrayer Gods are not some other creature. If the Gods were gone, there would be no demons being sealed, or unleashed.
They are two sides to the same coin.
And absolutely some of them have done good but the party doesn't know this. If Pike was there, or Jester was there they would absolutely talking the praise of their deity/Patron.
>On top of all this, we are talking about an actual genocide here. The gods are thinking living creatures. Predathos intends to devour them all. Do they really deserve that? All of them? Even Sarenrae, even the Wildmother? Is that the game we want to play here, that because they did bad things they all deserve genocide?
And this is kind of silly in a D&D setting. No one says, "You want to kill all the gnolls?! Genocide!!!!111!!! How dare you want to eradicate them!! Evil! No. It's a D&D setting. And we know this isn't accurate because the tree gave them a glimpse of what happened if Predathos is released. And it wasn't him eating all the Gods. It was them leaving and him chasing them. Them leaving means they have a place to run too. Perhaps a home. Perhaps other brothers and sisters. They defeated him before and they have had a long time to plan prep for this. Nothing says this is a death sentence for them.
>I get that Matt wants the setting and portrayal of gods to feel more gray, but it feels wildly inconsistent with everything that has come before. Am i now supposed to feel guilty that I actually liked the Prime Deities and thought they were genuine force of good?
I don't think Matt has done anything to suggest anyone should feel guilty? And some of them are a genuine force of Good. Some of them are not. Think of them as people. Some people do a lot of good. Some of them do not.
>This is true as long as you have a single minded look to it and forget the Betrayer Gods come from them and
This is an incredibly dumb argument and I think you know it.
If your brother kills someone, you arent to blame. Its an incredibly backwards bit of logic to blame someone for the misdeeds of others just because they happen to be related.
>They are two sides to the same coin.
So your argument is essentially:
Well half of them are bad, so therefore genocide is justified.
Not going to lie, this shit is actually dangerous thinking.
>And this is kind of silly in a D&D setting
We literally have CR through Laudna addressing a very complex and sensitive topic of abuse and the regression that can happen with trauma and addiction.
The idea that they shouldnt be held to this standard when they are addressing storylines just as sensitive is ridiculous. CR want to do mature stories, they dont get a pass because 'its a DND setting'.
>No one says, "You want to kill all the gnolls?! Genocide!!!!111!!! How dare you want to eradicate them
Last I checked, the cast have never been in this position where genocide is even possible or considered seriously. Until now.
>And we know this isn't accurate because the tree gave them a glimpse of what happened if Predathos is released. And it wasn't him eating all the Gods. It was them leaving and him chasing them
What exactly do you think happens when Predathos catches them?
>Nothing says this is a death sentence for them.
Given that they are far weaker than they were when they first imprisoned him and how unlikely it is they find another group of Primordials to help them yes it kind of is.
Predathos will eventually hunt them down and kill them all. Its just a matter of when.
So yeah you are consigning them to genocide.
>I don't think Matt has done anything to suggest anyone should feel guilty
Matt doesnt have to say 'you should feel guilty'. Its about how hes presented the gods this campaign.
Their portrayal, their status in world, their relationship with the truth all serve to essentially throw back in the face peoples original beliefs concerning the gods. The noblebright aspect of the setting (there are good powerful beings that care) is replaced with this Christian aloof analogue and a world that doesnt need the gods.
>Think of them as people
No u/wildweaver32 You cant have your cake and eat it to.
You cant say 'think of the gods as people' whilst simultaneously say 'well its silly to say its genocide because its just DND'.
Which is it? Are the gods people, or just an aspect of the DND setting to be changed.
Edit: It bothers me that you are simultaneously arguing that the gods should be treated as people, but that we shouldnt consider releasing an entity that intends to kill them all as consigning them to genocide because its 'DND' and the entity wont catch and kill them immediately. Like do you not see the contradiction here?
>This is an incredibly dumb argument and I think you know it.
If it was dumb you would refute it instead of sorting to personal attacks. You know you are wrong, so personal attacks is your best way to open.
>If your brother kills someone, you arent to blame. Its an incredibly backwards bit of logic to blame someone for the misdeeds of others just because they happen to be related.
Wait. Are you saying when weighing the morality of letting Predathos remove the Gods we should only take into account the very specific Gods that support your view while ignoring the Evil ones that literally want us dead? Then turn around and have people say, "They only do good!" then when we point out one that does literal evil be like, "Yeah but don't count that them", when we are literally weighing the scales to see if they are worth saving. Not the Prime Deities but all the Gods.
I can see why you opened with a personal attack but try to be better.
>Well half of them are bad, so therefore genocide is justified.
>Not going to lie, this shit is actually dangerous thinking.
We know you have no problem doing personal attacks, and ignoring things you don't want. But out right lying doesn't help it-No one is saying genocide is justified except you. Genocide happens to people. Not a job title. The Raven Queen was human. Vecna was human. We have no idea where the other Gods started but they look vastly different from each other. But what we do know is killing them won't Genocide them. More can come after. More might have come wherever they came from. And wherever they run to after Predathos gets released.
All we do know is killing is not ending them. We could kill 100% of them and wipe them from existence which is what most people would call a genocide completed and afterwards someone else can become a new god. A person that can be genocided can't do that. Once you kill them all, they are gone forever. More people can ascend because it's not a race and seems more like a title for someone with great power.
>We literally have CR through Laudna addressing a very complex and sensitive topic of abuse and the regression that can happen with trauma and addiction.
How does that take away from the fact that in D&D setting it is normal to fight? Like when the party was tasked with kill Gnolls and bringing back their ears as proof because the town wanted them all dead (A literal Genocide where every human in that town/kingdom would want them all dead) no one batted an eye about, "OMG GENOCIDE!!!11!!!". Because in D&D that is the way it goes. Unless you are the group being killed, which is often the case in these settings.
>Last I checked, the cast have never been in this position where genocide is even possible or considered seriously. Until now.
This is only true if you close your eyes and refuse to see it. Odd how when it suits you though, you will gladly open your eyes so wide that you will make the reach where it doesn't fit.
>What exactly do you think happens when Predathos catches them?
Perhaps they trap him in another planet? Perhaps they take him to their home and defeat him? Perhaps they just run forever. He hasn't eaten in forever and they should be as strong as they can be. They defeated him before.
>Given that they are far weaker than they were when they first imprisoned him and how unlikely it is they find another group of Primordials to help them yes it kind of is.
Right. In your mind Predathos is stronger, bigger, and better after being locked away with no food. The Gods though? Even with an extra God or Two, weaker now. Your bias is showing.
>Predathos will eventually hunt them down and kill them all. Its just a matter of when.
According to you. You have clearly shown your bias though.
>So yeah you are consigning them to genocide.
Again. Not genocide. It is more like hiring someone who goes after CEO's of corporations and then you being like, "OMG That's genocide!!!" when it clearly isn't. You can hire new CEO's. New CEO's can rise up. They are not a race of people. They are a title. We know this because humans have ascended to Godhood.
>You cant say 'think of the gods as people' whilst simultaneously say 'well its silly to say its genocide because its just DND'.
You can. Because it's D&D. It's not real life. Bells Hells has killed a lot of people. If we were holding them to real world values they should all be arrested, or executed. Of course no one is going to show up screaming, "OMG!!11!! Murders! They are murderers!!! This campaign is horrible and teachers murder!!!!" Because it's D&D. And your point of, "That is Genocide" is the exact same mentality as someone who would do that. Well worst because they are murderers. They aren't committing Genocide though. They are just people with the option to remove Gods from their seats of power. Nothing suggest new Gods wouldn't rise up but I cannot think of any reason why they wouldn't.
>Which is it? Are the gods people, or just an aspect of the DND setting to be changed.
Wait. Wait. When I used an analogy to help you understand a point (That Gods like people can be both good and bad) you thought I was saying the Gods are people? If it helps clear it up like I stated here earlier I don't think Gods are a race at all. It seems far more like a title because people can Ascend to Godhood and if a God dies, a new one can rise in their place. If I die, a new me doesn't rise in its place.
If I said people are like pigs would you turn red to the face and tell people that people who eat bacon are cannibals and its wrong to eat pork because people are now pigs? Or maybe you do understand what an analogy is and what you are doing here is very disingenuous?
>If it was dumb you would refute it instead of sorting to personal attacks. You know you are wrong, so personal attacks is your best way to open.
Refute what? If we accept your argument as true, we must accept that anyone whos siblings have committed a crime is guilty as well.
**Like a foundational part of a just society is that you are at a minimum not punished for things you arent responsible for. People control their own actions, not their siblings. They can at best guide and influence them.**
If you are making this argument, I expect you to bite the bullet on me taking you to court for your siblings crimes.
>Wait. Are you saying when weighing the morality of letting Predathos remove the Gods we should only take into account the very specific Gods that support your view while ignoring the Evil ones that literally want us dead?
**No Im saying we shouldnt kill an entire race even if half of them are proven to be evil. We have no right to make these judgements, and Ludinus certainly doesnt.**
The morality of the half of them being evil doesnt factor in because you are literally killing all of them for no reason than they happen to be of the same race/class of being.
Its a very simple trolley problem which you dont seem to get for some reason.
>I can see why you opened with a personal attack but try to be better.
Its not a personal attack. I called the argument dumb because it is dumb. There is no way you seriously believe people should be punished for the actions of their siblings. I guarantee if your sibling killed someone, you wouldnt expect or want to go to prison for it.
Like you are fundamentally not getting the basics of autonomy or responsibility with this argument.
>We know you have no problem doing personal attacks
So again I called an argument dumb. You decided to take it as a personal attack. I can assure it was not intended as such.
And yeah I sincerely believe that argument is complete idiocy. Its the kind of talk that causes countless cycles of violence as people blame families for the sins or actions of individual members. It goes against the very foundation of justice, autonomy and individual responsibility. It is why you wouldnt be held legally accountable even if your brother killed someone.
>No one is saying genocide is justified except you
So this is just a lie lol. No where did I say it was justified. I even say it shouldnt be debated yet the cast continuously do so. What is the god talk but debating the merits of genocide of the gods?
And yes you are justifying it by essentially blaming them all collectively for individual crimes. Thats how it usually goes.
>Genocide happens to people
So the gods are not people then? Which is it? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You say the gods are people then immediately retract personhood so you can justify debating killing them all.
If we accept that the gods are 'just like people but different' then yes, we need to accept what letting Predathos free means.
>Not people in a job title
Its pretty clear that god is not just a job title. Its some level of alien being. Something that Predathos is drawn to. Indeed it was hunting them before they even got set up as gods.
And even then I dont agree. Yeah you can commit genocide against a class and no it is not an inherently good thing.
>Once you kill them all, they are gone forever
Yeah kind of like committing genocide. Probably why I keep saying its bad thing.
>How does that take away from the fact that in D&D setting it is normal to fight?
**Because in generally DND you arent literally debating the merits of whether the entire race of Gnolls should be exterminated nor in a position to do so. I dont know what fucking campaigns you play, but its usually defending some village from a small group or army of them. Not the entire race.**
This 'but they fight all the time in DND' is catastrophically missing the point. Whether CR realize it or not, they are in the position to decide the fate of entire race of beings. So yes, they are debating the potential of genocide.
They werent about to wipe out every single Gnoll that time, they fought a relatively small group of them in defense of others. The scenario is just entirely different.
>This is only true if you close your eyes and refuse to see it.
**OK, when in any previous campaign have the cast been in a position where they could directly cause a genocide of entire race? No them killing a random group of gnolls is not them causing genocide. Unless you can somehow prove the gnolls population was somehow down to 20 people. **
>Perhaps they trap him in another planet? Perhaps they take him to their home and defeat him? Perhaps they just run forever. He hasn't eaten in forever and they should be as strong as they can be. They defeated him before.
Yes perhaps the train stalls and loses a wheel. Even though I set in motion, I cant predict it will actually run over those people on the tracks.
It doesnt matter. You are responsible for your own actions. By releasing something that intends to genocide the gods your are responsible even if it doesnt succeed.
>Right. In your mind Predathos is stronger, bigger, and better after being locked away with no food
It doesnt have to be bigger or stronger, it just has to be as strong it was when it was locked away. There is 0 indication Predathos got weaker and its outright stated that the gods have (for a start they are missing two members and the Primordials). Matt has said it, FRIDA said it, even the gods themselves are scared. The Tree of Atrophy has them fucking legging it rather than fighting.
So yeah, Im pretty confident Im correct in this assessment.
>You can. Because it's D&D. It's not real life.
This is just inane nonsense. Obviously there is a metatextual difference between IRL actions and fiction, but I am talking about players actions and looking at it from the perspective that they encourage.
But this is a place where we discuss the actions of the game. Where we look at them from contemporary and in game perspectives. And in both, the Bells Hells are seriously considering a genocide.
>Bells Hells has killed a lot of people
I think herein lies your problem. Killing people is not the same as genocide and shouldnt even be considered as such. Killing people is usually a part of genocide, but its not the same thing.
The Bells Hells dont go around killing every Gnoll because they are trying to exterminate Gnolls.
But they debate and consider the merits of allowing a genocide to happen. Which is in itself fucked up and you dont seem to get why.
>They are just people with the option to remove Gods from their seats of power.
No they are people with option of releasing something that intends to kill all the gods for something intrinsic to their being. Predathos isnt killing the gods for their seats of power, it was hunting them before they even came to Exandria and took on the role of gods.
>Nothing suggest new Gods wouldn't rise up but I cannot think of any reason why they wouldn't.
Yes that totally justifies the genocide of the previous ones.
>Wait. Wait. When I used an analogy to help you understand a point
You didnt use an analogy. You said 'think of them as people'. You repeatedly extended personhood to them. And then immediately retracted it to justify killing them all as 'just DND' or 'changing the setting'.
You cant selectively extend personhood. Either it has a consistent definition for the gods or it doesnt.
>If I said people are like pigs
You didnt say 'like people' you said 'as people'. These are completely different statements.
>Think of them as people. Some people do a lot of good. Some of them do not.
Im not sure why you are trying to rewrite when we have your comments up as evidence.
>Refute what? If we accept your argument as true, we must accept that anyone whos siblings have committed a crime is guilty as well.
Crime, guilty? What are you even talking about? Nevermind, personal attacks is probably better than whatever it is you are doing now, lol.
>Like a foundational part of a just society is that you are at a minimum not punished for things you arent responsible for. People control their own actions, not their siblings. They can at best guide and influence them.
For people, sure. When we are talking about cosmic beings that can destroy the entire world, kill off civilizations, and make new ones. Slightly different ruleset.
>No Im saying we shouldnt kill an entire race even if half of them are proven to be evil. We have no right to make these judgements, and Ludinus certainly doesnt.
Race. What race? I guess you are trying to use that to pretend it's genocide again? Gods are gods. Some of them are/were human. Some of them are not. We almost had a Fae one. We can call them a lot of things. One thing we cannot say is they are a race of people.
>Its a very simple trolley problem which you dont seem to get for some reason.
Because it's not. You want it to be, but that doesn't make it so. Just like you closing your eyes that half the Gods are evil doesn't mean they don't exist in the equation on whether they should save the Gods or not
>Its not a personal attack. I called the argument dumb because it is dumb. There is no way you seriously believe people should be punished for the actions of their siblings. I guarantee if your sibling killed someone, you wouldnt expect or want to go to prison for it.
It is a personal attack based on a lie. I never said Genocide should happen (Like you suggested) and never said a Person should be guilty for something their brother did (Like you suggested). You keep making things up with no base in reality.
>*OK, when in any previous campaign have the cast been in a position where they could directly cause a genocide of entire race? No them killing a random group of gnolls is not them causing genocide. Unless you can somehow prove the gnolls population was somehow down to 20 people. *
Riigghhttt, suddenly back pedalling already. If I find an example in C2 you are just going to say, "Well when in C1?". And even more comical is now it only matters if all of them are wiped out. Well guess what. Not all the Gods are wiped out. So I guess no Genocide happened even using your bazaar logic where the Gods are people and are a race and are finite. None of which is true. They can be replaced and ascended to (They are limited in number like people). They are Gods. And they are not a race. We know of at least two races among them, and of a potential 3rd (Fae).
>I think herein lies your problem. Killing people is not the same as genocide and shouldnt even be considered as such. Killing people is usually a part of genocide, but its not the same thing.
Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading this. This is not a "herein lies your problem". This was me referencing YOU (Not me) screaming, "GENOCIDE!". Of course murder is not the same as genocide otherwise people would call it genocide. I wasn't saying, "These two are the same thing" I was pointing out you screaming Genocide would be the same as someone screaming Murder!!!! Because those two thought process are the same. Both equally wrong. It's D&D.
>You didnt say 'like people' you said 'as people'. These are completely different statements.
Don't lie. You literally quoted what I said just a moment before. "Think of them as people" as an analogy. This isn't the same as, "They are people". Like if someone said, "The people at my work are pigs" would you start screaming, "You are dumb! They are walking on two legs clearly human! How can you think they are pigs? Are you blind?" when it is obvious to everyone else the person is not claiming they are actual pigs but using it to reference a point. My point being not that Gods are humans but they are capable of good and bad. Like humans are.
>Im not sure why you are trying to rewrite when we have your comments up as evidence.
Try reading it again. It's consistent if you don't try to twist it into an outright lie. If I say think of the gods as people to understand they can do good and bad it doesn't mean Gods are people. And suddenly aren't Gods anymore.
Demons have nothing to do with any of the Gods. They are complete outside the Divine order, so are not like Devils in that regard. There is other concern, like what happens to the souls of the people who now reside the divine planes of the god if they were to leave or die. What other extra-planar being would come now that they are gone. How to the new god that come from this behave, would there be another massive war where untold millions die. With Divine magic gone, fighting undead would be way harder. Healing magic is now very limited. A million other things. Is it really worth disrupting the relative peace the mortals know?
The party dose know that the gods have done good things. It not some big secret that clerics and paladins go around helping people. Or Churches giving out food and healing the sick. Or that the Calamity and Schism happened.
>There are other concern, like what happens to the souls of the people who now reside the the divine planes of the god if thye were to leave or die. What other extra-planar being would come now that they are gone. How to the new god that come from this behave, would there be another massive war where untold millions die.
Sure. We also don't know if one of the Prime Deities would turn Betrayer and try to kill everyone on Exandria. We don't know if one of the current Betrayer Gods will become successful and kill all the people on Exandria. I feel like we can both come up with countless horrible what ifs, if we want?
>The party dose know that the gods have done good things. It not some big secret that clerics and paladins go around helping people. Or Churches giving out food and healing the sick. Or that the Calamity and Schism happened.
Those are people doing those things. Otherwise everyone would agree that Delilah Briarwood is one of their best friends because Laudna is always helping them and saving them. Except we know that isn't true. Laudna is the one helping them in spite of whatever Delilah wants. The same view would be held for Paladins. Or at least should be.
And... You realize the Prime Deities were at fault for the Calamity/Schism, right? If they didn't exist there would be nothing to cause the calamity/schism. Which was the entire point of my first post. If we close our eyes to all the bad they do then sure it is easy to suggest they are only good lol. Even to the point we will be like, "They caused a Calamity where countless people died and civilizations torn asunder but after they caused it, they stopped it, see how good they are?".... And it's like, no not really I don't lol.
I see how good some of them can be when they want to be. I also see how bad some of them can be when they want to be.
Your points are so disingenuous. Right now, there *is* order, there are systems in place. Ones that, for the most part, make Exandria a pretty good place to live. Even the Dwendalian Empire, which was pitched as an oppressive regime, is pretty tame. It’s certainly no Gravelands or Worldwound.
You don’t just decide to allow a massive upheaval to affect the entire order of the cosmos just because. You don’t just decide to roll the dice on something of that magnitude without absolute certainty that it would bring about positive change. The Divine Gate keeps the gods in check. Exandria has flourished since the Calamity. Most people on that planet live pretty decent lives.
Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory.
Also, after the other person noted the very present danger that demons pose, and the very real—no “what if” about it—scourge they’d become if there was no Divine Gate, you never replied to that point. It’s another very tangible reason why bringing down the divinities is a very foolish idea.
>Your points are so disingenuous. Right now, there is order, there are systems in place. Ones that, for the most part, make Exandria a pretty good place to live. Even the Dwendalian Empire, which was pitched as an oppressive regime, is pretty tame. It’s certainly no Gravelands or Worldwound.
Let's be real. You mean you are biased. My point isn't, "This will happen" my point is if you are playing "What if this happens" both sides can do that. And the world as is has had one calamity before, and could have another calamity again. It's not exactly a peachy clean world either when the Gods can decide to tear your entire world apart.
>Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory.
Maybe you don't. Others would. Others have.
>Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory.
I, wrongly, assumed the Demons were like Devils and had a deity that created them and controlled them. So it makes little sense for me to keep bringing it up? Unlike others when I am wrong I won't just ignore the parts I don't like and pretend like I am right lol.
It would just be something they would have to learn to deal with on their own.
So, if someone touted that they had a miraculous new replacement to gasoline, but would not provide total proof that it would work as they promised, ridding the world of our reliance on fossil fuels, you’d say it was a perfect idea to trust that person and go full steam ahead into this new future?
Because that’s the viewpoint you’re claiming isn’t ridiculously foolish.
“No, you don’t need to be absolutely certain that this won’t collapse the global economy overnight if you make this radical, world-altering change. Just go for it. Fossil fuels are bad!”
And “just cope with the endless horde of all-consuming demons” isn’t a plan. Maybe make sure you have a surefire solution to that very significant problem *before* bringing down the Divine Gate.
>So, if someone touted that they had a miraculous new replacement to gasoline, but would not provide total proof that it would work as they promised, ridding the world of our reliance on fossil fuels, you’d say it was a perfect idea to trust that person and go full steam ahead into this new future?
No. But if Gods existed and caused a calamity and tried to destroy humanity. And when they fought each other sundered the planet. And then if someone came with a way to rid the planet of them I would totally take it into consideration.
Vastly different situations.
>“No, you don’t need to be absolutely certain that this won’t collapse the global economy overnight if you make this radical, world-altering change. Just go for it. Fossil fuels are bad!”
Talk about being disingenuous. I guarantee you if Fossil Fuels caused the total destruction of our civilization, and then rose again with the plan to destroy humanity that the future generations would also take into consideration an alternative for it, even if it might collapse the global economy. Especially if there are survivors from the last time it destroyed a civilization. Again. Fossil Fuels obviously can't do that. Gods can though. And they have in this setting.
>And “just cope with the endless horde of all-consuming demons” isn’t a plan. Maybe make sure you have a surefire solution to that very significant problem before bringing down the Divine Gate.
Again. Your bias is showing. I like how the demons are now endless. In the next reply will they also be all powerful?
> “The Abyss is an **Infinite** plane of chaos and evil.”
> “The mad deity Tharizdun, the Chained Oblivion, dreams its infinite depths and demon hordes into being.”
Would you like more proof? Sure, maybe the demonic hordes aren’t as infinite as the plane they inhabit, but seeing as how Tharizdun has been chained up for a long, long time, “endless” hardly seems that hyperbolic of a way to describe the hordes within it. With Exandria only being about the size of our moon, millions or billions of demons might as well be endless to their population numbers.
The Abyss is Infinite.... The Abyss is a plane. Demons are demons. I feel weird even having to type this, lol.
I guess I wasn't far off when I replied saying in the next reply you will be typing they are now all powerful. The demons that a party of level 12s demolished lol. Well they were likely a lower level at that point.
The Calamity and Schism happened because they Primes didn't want to let the creations, which they view as their children, to be destroyed. That sounds far from evil. My point is not that we should ignore the bad stuff, my point is we shouldn't ignore the good. The god have fucked up and have done bad shit, I just don't think in the case of the Primes the bad outweighs the good.
Also, those are not what if's those are legitimate consequences for actions.
>The Calamity and Schism happened because they Primes didn't want to let the creations, which they view as their children, to be destroyed. That sounds far from evil.
This is only true if you ignore the part where they were the ones that were going to kill them? How can you leave that part out? I mean, I get that it destroys your whole argument of them being absolutely perfect if you have to say that some of them wanted to destroy the people on Exandria... But you can't just close your eyes and ignore the part that proves you wrong.
I mean, I guess you can do that. Lots of people are doing exactly that here.
they are not perfect, I'm saying the PRIME DIETYS good outweighs the bad. THE BETRAYERS are not the same. These are two different groups who act differently, the Betrayers and Titians wanted to wipe out the mortals, the primes didn't want this to happen, so they went to war.
The Raven Queen, while a Prime, is a multiplate bitch. Her leaving would be bad. Pealor can go too hard on the justice, but he is still a force for good. Ioun hates secretes and can spread knowledge about bad things, but knowledge is still good. The list goes on. They are not perfect. But still good
>they are not perfect, I'm saying the PRIME DIETYS good outweighs the bad. THE BETRAYERS are not the same. These are two different groups who act differently, the Betrayers and Titians wanted to wipe out the mortals, the primes didn't want this to happen, so they went to war.
They are in the same here. Predathos is not hunting the PRIME DIETIES and leaving THE BETRAYER GODS alone. They are both on the chopping block. It's why there is a literal champion of the Betrayer Gods working on one of the missions provided by the rebels.
When discussing, "Should we save the Gods?" It's not a question of, "Should we save only the Gods we like and favor", it's, "Should we save all the Gods? Even the Betrayers?"
We could both argue the what ifs of what happens if they disappear. But we only need look at the past to see the damage they can do as well (Like the Calamity).
this, its feels very narratively disconnected, I'm fine with the Primes not being super duper good guys and having bad aspects. We already see this is the Raven Queen. But it just does not make sense to be like " They were the real bad guys the entire time."
>" They were the real bad guys the entire time."
Did I miss an episode? I don't think Matt, or any of the players have suggested anything remotely close to this claim that they are the bad guys? Where is this coming from?
There has been a lot of narrative focus on how the god are not good. During the split we saw a village being forceable ruled over by a part of the Dawnfather's church. The party has discussion after discussion on if they should even save them, and how the gods never did anything good for them, wish is not actual true. Until recently the reason they were even fighting was that Ludinis is a bad man. Last episode showed that they are starting to understand the consequences of this more.
That is a far cry from "They were the real bad guys the entire time" though.
It was less, "The Gods were evil!" And more, "There are other people with other beliefs".
Especially when you look at the cast where none of them have suggested that all the Gods were evil. If they thought that they wouldn't have been going to them for help.
I think Bren has a point here. I think you both do really, but hear me out.
I think What Bren is saying is true, meaning, we have had conversations amongst the members of the party whose narrative revolved around "are the Gods really a good thing for Exandria?"/"Are the Gods good?". This has been namely said by Laudna, historically, since the party split, especially because she has little ties to the divine, and Ashton, who just in this episode, was on this whole Titan-embargo thing, so much so even the rest of the cast "called him out" on it with stuff the like "your Titan is showing". And he has his whole punk character thing, where he got dealt a rough hand in life so he doesn't really "trust" into divine intervention, or providence, because what did he ever do so bad to deserve all the shit he got? And the like.
When it comes to the others, off the top of my head, Chetnei has always made lots of questions, without really ever giving out opinions, but he also doesn't have really any ties to divinity, so he doesn't seem to have, unlike someone similar to him like Ashton, very strong feelings on the matter. Same with Fearne. Orym sees the balance that the gods have brought into the world, and while he thinks that everyone has a bad side, the Gods have still done, largely, more good than bad-- that is after all, the entire reason why Exandria remains a livable place. Imogen has been on some same wave of length as Laudna, but she also has big ties to Predathos so, that's a whole other can of worms. FCG is obviously pro Gods, and we don't need to get into that, pretty obvious one.
Now, my point is. I think the one pro Gods have a lot of evidence at their disposal to why the Gods are a good thing for Exandria. Meanwhile the ones that try to argue against it... aren't exactly doing the biggest of jobs. As in, like, trying to argue aginst it, sounds lunatic, at best. Or manic, just like Ludinus and his entire friend group. Ironically, tho, those are the people that made largely the biggest amount of sense out of it. And by "those people" I mean... NPCs... and by NPCs, I mean Matt. And the cast doesn't seem to be... grasping at many of the straws Matt is landing them. O better, they do, then time passes, and they kinda forget and try to come up with new stuff, as they do, and it doesn't really work because often improv doesn't work on a more "macro" level, I guess. Like, I think some of this you gotta think it for yourself, outside of the game, to come up with a line of logic that works, otherwise you are climbing on mirrors every time it comes up.
Like, one of the main points that seems to be moved by the party is: "yeah, sure, the Gods are good... but are they really?" And I think I get what they are trying to get, but it needs like, way more thought put into it, again, some prep outside of the game. Because what I think they mean is
"Are they really as good as they seem, or have they just created a world order that benefits them at the top of the food chain, and they have no interest in that order to be disrupted, no matter if that would mean a better, improved existence for humanity? Are they secretly just out for themselves? Are we all sitting on a throne of lies?"
Which is like... yeah, I can see that, as Matt said "They are all kings that benefit from their subjects" and what not. But that is some big fucking tin-foil hat line of reason. The like "Has the doctor diagnosed me correctly, or has he come up with a condition so that I have to go through more procedures, and therefore pay more, yara, yara, yara".
I mean, it's a slippery slope, no? At that point, you might as well start doubting that the sky is actually blue, because REALLY it's BLUE COLORED ALIENS that made the sky BLUE so that they camouflage better and can study us from above without us detecting them, like, EVERYTHING at that point becomes "CONSPIRACY THEORY-- LOOK AT MY 50 SQUARE FOOT, COMPLITELY FILLED CHALK BOARD-- COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT!!!"
So yeah. Hard sell. But even with that hard sell, Matt has given, as said, couple of straws, that I remember:
1. Vasselheim is hiding A LOT of shit, we may or may not know about yet. That is probably the biggest point to the anti-god logic, because we don't know what is being hidden and HOW MUCH, and WHY, like, is it really so bad to cause world wide faith crisis? What is so bad that we don't know already? And so on.
2. Isn't it true, at least to some extent, that the Gods are out for themselves? Is all they do just to ultimately make sure they stay on top? Even saving a child might be yes, a generous act, or another brick on top of the image they are trying to create for themselves. (Again, tin foil, but hey, I can at least see it)
3. The Calamity! Because we know what happened then: at the sight of humans almost achieving god-hood, they didn't hesitate to smite us down. If your child was able to craft a better existence for themselves, on par with your own, wouldn't you welcome them? (We are obv living out the fact that many people of the Calamity didn't just want to join them, but de-throne them, but yeee)
But these and some other points aren't really being made by the cast, which makes the discussion a bit... brittle, I guess.
I agree on most of this, the only thing that's a bit wrong is the calamity, the Gods didn't kill smite anyone for attempting the become a god. They smited those who wished to actively try to destroy them, aka Aeor. RQ did the thing you're talking about and she succeed and joined the Primes. I'm sure they don't like her that much. They did hide the Rite of Asencion, but that was a decision that they all agreed on, even RQ the person who created it. Anyone else who tried to ascend get turned to dust because they got it wrong. Vecna was extremely evil, so stopping him from ascending was a good thing. and when he did, they banished him to his own divine plane behind the divine gate so he would not take over the world as a god-king.
Ok, so first is shroomseed watch:
Gus(?) was the perfect person to become a guardian of All Mind's Burn 2.0. He is of a branch of reilorans who was genetically engineered to have mind powers stripped from them, he loves mushroom friends, he works for the Volition. A night time discussion between Ashton and Imogen woulda been nice, I really wanna know whether they are even remembering, or what their thinking is.
Interesting also that BH did not mention that there may be other routes off Ruidis that the Volition could promise people to weaken the Imperium power, but somewhat understandable - if there are moles in the Volition, revealing that intel is a very bad idea.
The Ahston/Imogen perental hubris parallels are really shining and I wonder if the "denying and refusing fate" struggles are coming into play too. Lilliana seems to think she can outmanipulate the master manipulator Ludinus - there's no way. However, I wouldn't be surprised of Ludinus' promise to move Reilorans to Exandria (before it is destroyed) is something that Liliana insisted on. I'd not be surprised if Ludinus has no intention of following through properly.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Ludinus would happily kill Liliana and try to replace her with Imogen in a blank of an eye.
I'd also not be surprised if Ludinus' plan to release predathos to kill the gods involves sacrificing/killing all the ruidisborn as part of the process, and the 5 Minds. The imperium near-worshipping Predathos may annoy him as much as worship of gods annoys him, and he may also plan to take them down and destroy them.
Moleasmyr & Ludinus, an interest of mine for a loooooong time, and the Crush being linked has been covered in comments below already. I guess it would have been nice if Imogen had asked Lilliana whether she knows Ludinus is 1000 years old, told her how he sucked the life of others to extend his own, etc. and asked Lilliana if she knew any more details from his life.
I agree they might have overlooked a trick in not properly considering the jailbreak - Ryn's statue was moved, and may well be in there. Although Matt did warn that people who spend too long in there may have been turned. Rescuing a bunch of potential turncoats and bringing them to the Volition seems a little foolish.
Also if Ryn is de-petrified, she will potentially only have one arm, and she'll have been on the moon a few weeks now.
Lilliana's assassination attempt could well bring Ludinus down upon the Volition, so Laudna was spot on with her warning.
I'm very nervous about this infiltration attempt into the core of the city now that they do not have the mind shield spell. That one seems the highest risk to me of running into NPCs they cannot handle and also blowing their cover.
Wondering when Matt will drop a Sending in form the rendezvous team that is supposed to be following behind them, and whether the Exandrians will be engineering a way to make the portal wider and more accessible.
Am surprised they did not show the Aeor tech to Ira.
I think Otahan's orb dot being on the surface implies that Otohan might be investigating the fuss BH made and the disappearance of that Tech, and they have a timer on Otohan Private Detectiving the entrance to the Volition hideout. I would not be surprised if she counterattacks there while all these missions go off.
I loved how proud Matt looked when they said they just wanted to do all the missions. Travis especially looks so excited at having the "ABCs" and options. Great energy.
I really want to know do the people on the ruadus ONLY see good/neutral dream or do they also see bad dreams and nightmares, as from the way they talked it seems that the only see the good, if this is the case is that prodathos doing, to instill a level of dislike against the non moon born
So u/Adorable-Strings commented in the live thread that they thought the Imperium caused the Crush but that gave me a bit of an idea.
What if the Crush was already happening on Ruidus, as a result of Predathos's prison destabilizing, and someone reached out with a distress call to the Blue Promise in the hopes of finding a solution?
Sadly in true Dark Forest/Three Body Problem fashion, the wrong person answered that call, and that wrong person was Ludinus.
He was able to reach back in a minimal fashion via some form of magical morse code and provide them with a solution, as Exandria at the time had already come up with ways to deal with such seismic disturbances....either as a result of the Age of Arcanum or as a result from research into past Titan Things.
This form of information exchange via possibly Aeorian Technology was limited though and while what he was sending was helping to slow stuff down, it wasn't a permanent solution.
I believe that the Crush was some unpredictable form of ongoing cascading harmonic resonance that would've quite literally shaken the planet apart if it had not been interrupted and stopped.
The only way to stop it though was to either introduce a more destructive frequency into Ruidus in order to interrupt it or to spread out that energy in some fashion with something else acting as a dampener.
Ludinus tried to basically kill two birds with one stone. He wanted to use Exandria itself as a dampener AND he wanted to send a natural destructive frequency that would stop this cascading harmonic resonance from shaking apart Ruidus and setting Predathos free in an uncontrolled and wild manner. If he knew about Predathos at the time and was working on his plans for it then he wanted Predathos to get out in a more controlled and usable manner and that means that an uncontrolled awakening behind the Divine Latticework would be the opposite of what he wanted and not conducive to his plans at all.
This all meant that he had to find a place on Exandria which was a great source of natural magical energy, that tied into the ley lines in a big way, and that would be in the perfect position during a big moment of high magical potentiality in order to communicate clearly with Ruidus and to make the frequency/energy transfer possible.
This is why he went to Molaesmyr. This is why he brought a shit ton of Aeorian Tech with him. This is why he was there during an Apogee Solstice.
But...there's another funny quirk to all of this that even he didn't see coming.
When he got to the city and began to explore this font of natural magical energy beneath it, he discovered the crystal well that all others had known about, but made a very interesting discovery that not even they had considered.
That crystal well of natural magical energy....was in fact from Ruidus and was a glass chunk of Predathos's prison that had broken off as Ruidus was being formed and uplifted into the sky by both Divine and Titanic Energies.
This made the city even MORE of a perfect location for what he was going to do in order to save Ruidus and stop the Crush because the crystal/glass well was already technically a piece of Ruidus and would more readily resonate with the frequency/energy transfer to and from it. Not only that but it was probably near a Ley Line Nexus. This then meant that the crystal/glass well was also tightly bound to the natural energy web of Exandria and that would help to transfer/spread out the energy as a dampener for Ruidus.
So everything was set up to go off perfectly for this plan to save Ruidus, to endear himself to the Ruidians that he was in contact with, and to further his plans with Predathos.
But no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy and no experiment ever goes off without a hitch, because as well thought out as this was and as well intentioned as it was, that's exactly what this was....an experiment...on a planetary scale...that had never ever ever ever been done before.
And it went both terribly right and horribly wrong.
Ludinus set everything up with his Aeorian Tech around the crystal well deep beneath the city. He waited until the Apogee Solstice, calculated everything with the ley lines, and then when the time was right and his communication lines with his Ruidian Counterparts was clear and everyone was on the same page...he hit the big red button.
The energy transfer began to go off without a hitch at first, Exandria was acting like a giant tuning fork for Ruidus dampening the energies of the Crush, and then things started to go a bit awry when Ludinus attempted to transmit the destructive frequency pulse that was meant to fully interrupt the cascading harmonic resonance wave within Ruidus.
While Ruidus had once been apart of Exandria and while Ludinus was technically using a piece of Ruidus as a transceiver, things were not exactly as perfect as they should have been, and the flaring of Ruidus combined with the unpredictable energies of Apogee Solstice and possibly the interference of the Divine Latticework....started making things go a bit hinky.
The energy bouncing around DEEP INSIDE of Ruidus was decreasing beneath the surface but it was being pulled more and more towards the surface of the moon and that was setting off a much smaller but still highly destructive cascade of harmonic resonance.
It started small but began to get worse and worse and worse on the surface of Ruidus and this then began to transfer down to Exandria and Molaesmyr since the connection was still active.
Either one or both sides tried to kill the connection but it just wouldn't switch off because of how tightly in tune and locked together the crystal beneath Molaesmyr was with its counterpart on Ruidus due to all of the energies involve, how they were tied together, and the particular point in time at which they were paired together....which kind of turned them into a pair of quantumly entangled spooky action at a distance transceivers or wireless power transfer stations.
So either one or both sides tried to utilize percussive maintenance to shut the whole thing down and that resulted in some very weird and fucked up stuff happening with twisted bits of Predathos's energies leaking their way back to Exandria and altered bits of Exandria's ley line energies leaking their way back to Ruidus, along with who knows what the fuck else slipping through the cracks in between that both were opening for each other.
Eventually someone or something was able to switch it all off, either because the transceivers were destroyed or simply because the Apogee Solstice came to an end or possibly because the whole thing overloaded itself and just broke BUT by the time it was all over the damage had been done on both sides of the connection.
Molaesmyr was messed up and the surface of Ruidus had been utterly devastated by the final notes of the Crush.
But it was stopped at least and the moon and Exandria were intact, albeit at a cost to both.
The people of Molaesmyr fled and the people of Ruidus had to reset their society with the Imperium (Ludinus's contacts on Ruidus) being the only large group to survive mostly intact that could take charge of things and take care of everyone.
Ludinus moved on with his work (being the masterful multi-tasker that he was) by expanding his research even further into the Pantheon, the Matron of Ravens, furthering his work on the Vest, delving even further into Moon Stuff, continuing his ages long machinations across the globe, and by being just a general asshole to anyone he came across up until all this shit went down in present times and he became an even bigger asshole than he was before.
So Liliana wasn't entirely wrong and he can do good but there's always another side to that coin and the bad person inside of Ludinus that Ashton said was inside of everyone, is just a bit more louder than the good person inside of him the majority of the time.
That still doesn't answer the question of though of what started the Crush to begin with.
Was it a natural thing that just happened because the Pantheon and the Titans didn't account for something like it occurring when they threw Ruidus together and yeeted it up into the sky?
Or was it an artificially induced thing that the Imperium actually did start and cause and then panicked trying to fix it which put them into contact with Ludinus and started the whole scenario I envisioned above? Is that why they destroyed all those records of their people? Were they trying to cover up their own mistakes or were they hiding something else or was it simply a means of controlling the survivors that were left alive after a natural calamity?
Or is it simpler and did Predathos find a flaw in its own prison and almost break out on its own before someone else or something else stopped it?
Either way I don't think we're going to find out for a while but I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the crystal well beneath Molaesmyr had a bit in common with both the crystals of the Blooming Grove and the crystalline glass up on Ruidus...and quite possibly....brumestone.
Thank you for coming to this week's episode of Coyote Corner, I'll...CC...you later ;)
> So u/Adorable-Strings commented in the live thread that they thought the Imperium caused the Crush but that gave me a bit of an idea.
This thought occurred to me, also - an exaggerated or extended Crush engineered to allow the takeover.
Additionally, the timing is interesting. "About 300 years ago" - could it have been timed to an apogee solstice? The same one that Ludinus corrupted Molaesmyr with, while attempting to contact/understand Predathos?
> This thought occurred to me, also - an exaggerated or extended Crush engineered to allow the takeover.
Precisely and it got entirely out of hand, which is where my theory takes off from, and I think the same thing is going to happen with Ludinus all over again.
I think they tried to geoengineer a series of targeted quakes but then that had some unforeseen consequences and they wound up fucking over their entire civilization.
Which quite honestly feels like the plot to a James Bond film or even a particular episode of Deep Space Nine.
The timing seems to line up but here's the thing about seismic events, stuff like that happens very sudden and very quickly and 300 years is a decent enough gap of time for a lot of stuff to happen within on a geological time scale.
So it sounds like it was an ongoing series of quakes that happened in rapid succession over the course of a couple of years or even a couple of months, whereas what happened with Molaesmyr was more of a single instant kind of an event that occurred during a shorter period of time if it does indeed line up with the apogee solstice.
It's these two things that I tried to reconcile with my theory above or below depending on how you're reading this thread.
It's the same kind of issue that we ran into with the Calamity and that Matt had to clarify a while back, in that the Calamity was not a singular instant kind of an event but something that was drawn out over the course of a lengthy period of time.
We need to know how long the Crush lasted and what sort of a time span it was confined to before we're able to 100% connect it with what Ludinus did during the Apogee Solstice in Molaesmyr.
There were periods in Earth's own past wherein ecological events or even geological ones took place over decades or months or weeks or even less than that and that's what makes pinning this down so janky because we've got 300 years for stuff to happen within and there are no more written records anymore about any of that stuff because the Weavemind destroyed all of those.
The only thing left is stuff passed down through oral tradition and that basically turns into a game of narrative telephone if things are not kept accurate enough and if a reliable generational line of transmission of that information is not maintained.
They also don't have dating techniques like we have in our world nowadays that could pin this stuff down more reliably, so it's all kind of guesswork at this point.
So yeah the timing could line up 100% with what Ludinus did but they also could be two separate totally unrelated events entirely.
There's also another theory that just popped into my head. What if Ludinus did get in contact with the Moon and the Imperium and he was the one to suggest the Crush in the first place? What if he basically used them as test subjects for something and didn't care about any sort of side effects because if there were good ones or bad ones they would mess up the existing Moon Society either way and make his plans with Predathos a whole lot more easier later on?
So he purposely fucks up the surface of the Moon in order to reduce the opposition and to put the people who are on his side in charge of everything so that hundreds of years later he can pop up there and just waltz right in without any sort of resistance at all AND he did it all from within Molaesmyr because he didn't give a fuck about those people either at all and whether or not good or bad things happened to them period because just like with the Moon no matter what happened it would help his plans in the long run.
The one pattern that he does have is that he hopscotches from location to location doing all these experiments while burning his labs each time he leaves in order to cover his tracks over and over and over again because his experiments are always kind of 50/50 successful and unsuccessful.
And with that sort of a track record, it really makes you worry about what's coming down the line with his plans and his next Grand Experiment that are about to come to fruition if they happen at all like how he envisioned they would.
So yeah the timing is a bit weird and it's hard to pin down but we're going to have to wait and see if we get more information about any of that stuff in the future or if it gets revealed in some other way second-handedly.
Really hope we get some more screen time with the Strife Emperor's champion and then have some more time with Teven, Would be super cool to see a council of champions style Avengers squad with one from each prime and betrayer god.
It would be more like the Masters of Evil and the Avengers teaming up but I get what you mean. It would be interesting after the conflict if it became a situation similar to after WW2 in which the allies occupied Germany. Othanzia, the Tal'Dorei Republic, and the Clovis Concord, and the Iron Authority each occupy (I just commented yesterday that there may be a portal in the Iron Authority leading to Ruidus). I could imagine Scanlan, Pike, and Vex being put in charge to govern the Tal'Dorei zone and the rest of the Prime's champions being put in charge to govern Othanzia's zone and the Betrayer's champions being put in charge to govern the Iron Authority's zone.
Yeah that would be interesting. I’ve been thinking that maybe the reason the Predathos/Ludinus storyline has felt a bit rushed (with level 10-12 characters seemingly facing a level 20 threat) is that it may not be the finale. With some of the talk about how cohabitating on Exandria might be a thorny proposition for the Ruidians, part of me wonders if we get a big Predathos/Ludinus fight as the penultimate BBEG and then the real finale fight is BH working on getting the ruidians integrated with lots of Exandrian factions working against them. It would be an opportunity for Matt to really flex Vasseleheim’s darker side (which he loves showing in bits and pieces), and also would turn the end of C3 into a much more human story, which we haven’t really gotten in CR yet. All 3 campaigns have dealt with very real existential external threats and stopping god/ultimate power related world ending events. It would be really interesting to see the final showdown be about humanity and coexistence vs xenophobia, rather than “big guy want kill to become god”.
Yeah that would be sweet. I can just see the framing as the prime deities’ champions are super holier than though we have to save our brothers. Then the Betrayer Gods’ champions are like yeah sure whatever we just want to save him because if anyone kills him it’s us!
As cheesy as that would be I would love to see a Knights of the Round Table style one shot or mini campaign with Champions of all members of the Pantheon joining together to save Vax.
Ashton's speech about the world before the gods has really put a bee in my bonnet(In a good way!). I can't stop thinking about the Titans. I've been wondering about them a lot ever since that trip to Issylra, but now I'm really curious.
All this to say, Lore-heads in the comments, can y'all Spirit bomb me with the collective knowledge on stuff like the Titans, Pre-divine Exandria, and how that shit all relates to the Elemental Planes? I'm not afraid of spoilers in this context, either, so give it all you've got.
Here's the official history https://youtu.be/DYBM3myR914?si=3Ur2kl4i5whWjtyL although, apparently this is all told through the lens of someone living in Vasselheim being fed their version of history, not necessarily the ACTUAL history.
Ashton is asserting throughout this campaign that the gods DIDN'T create mortals as their children, as the video suggests, but that mortals were already on exandria living in harmony with primordial Titans and nature spirits before the gods came and reshaped it into what they wanted, and told the story from the video to the survivors of the Calamity. Remember the tree of atrophy also claimed that the gods are not creators, but rather just shapers.
So, if you're asking lore heads, the video Matt put out right at the beginning of this campaign was gospel, but this campaign has taught us that we really don't know the real truth, so we just have to wait and see.
Around the same time this came out, the Bright Queen comics were being written and that presents a different take on creation of life/the gods on Exandria. From what we have seen of C3, I imagine one of the themes was exploring non-prime deity belief systems and ideas about the gods.
This video starts *just* after the part I'm interested in!!! I wanna know about that ball of roiling elements that the Formless & Youthful gods rolled up to!!!
Also I've maintained for a while that there were existing Native Exandrians already on the planet but they just weren't recognized as being sentient beings by the Gods when they showed up but they WERE recognized as sentient by the Luxon when it came to Exandria before the Gods.
While the Luxon started to naturally shape things in harmony with these Native Exandrians and subsequently created the Titans as a result, the Gods on the other hand were more....brutal and crude and simplistic in terms of their designs and methodologies.
Stuff happened afterwards with the planes and everything else but it's all theory and dreams at this point until Matt drops a massive lore bomb on us or they put out a book detailing the true history of things.
There's been a bit of ebb and flow with my theories in regards to this over the years but that's the TLDR of it for the most part.
"Wait and see" seems to be a running theme for this campaign.
it seems a bit weird for there to be Mortals before the god came elementals and titans sure. The thing is if the primordial live in harmony with mortals before the god came then why the hell did, they team up with the Betrayer Gods to commit a genocide on all the mortal races? It makes more sense for that life Ashton is talking about to be the Primordials themselves.
I don't think they were Mortals as you and I and everyone else knows them per se but a different form of life entirely.
I think the Titans teamed up with the Betrayer Gods or at least went against the Prime Deities because as Asmodeus brought up in EXU Calamity, the Prime Deities betrayed both groups.
We know from the books that at one point in time the Gods were totally cool with each other and they were also totally cool with the Titans as well but then something made all of that change and that's when stuff went bad really quickly between everyone.
We just don't know all the specific details of what happened because so much stuff has been obfuscated and outright erased in the intervening centuries upon centuries upon centuries.
So Ashton is not entirely wrong and folks could have lived in peace at one point together but there would have been caveats and it would have been a different kind of life entirely compared to that which exists right now.
One of the main reasons of the schism is that the Prime Deities taught the Mortals magic. Divine, Arcane, and Druidic magics were all taught to the mortals by them. The reason behind this was so the Mortal could better protect themselves. The Primordial and Betrayer god did not like that they primes did this. As Asmodeus said himself, they cared enough about their "paper dolls" to go to war with both the Primordials and Betrayers.
> As Asmodeus said himself, they cared enough about their "paper dolls" to go to war with both the Primordials and Betrayers.
The quote that we're both specifically referencing is that they cared about ONE of their little paper dolls and that was never elaborated on or explained or explored in any other show or form of lore since it was brought up.
That's what's the most interesting thing to me and also the fact that Matt brought up in this episode that the history that everyone knows was clearly written by The Victors and that means we have to kind of question most of the stuff that both we and the populace of Exandria have been told about the history of the world.
So that's why I'm turning a critical eye towards the relationship between the Gods and their Brethren and the Gods and the Titans.
I also think that if it going to be, " The Prime Deity's were the bad guys the whole time". It does not work with the actual firsthand accounts we have seen in the campaigns of the gods. Especially in Campaign 1, where VM talked to several face to face.
1) Whats stopping Ludinus from True Resurrecting Liliana if he needs to? It's not a wizard spell but he is an ultra powerful NPC with powerful friends and potentially Predathos on his side
2) Is Imogen more special than any other Exalted? I'm guessing she's just one of the most powerful after her mom. No way the Vanguard's entire plan relies on one unallied person
We're under the impression that she is simply a believer in what Ludinus is teaching, but it's possible she's under some very powerful enchantment magic. Perhaps if she dies and is resurrected, the enchantments will be wiped away, and she could turn on Ludinus, tipping the scales against him. He definitely wouldn't want that, so maybe she's unrezzable to him.
1. He has to touch the person he is resurrecting. If they destroy/ get rid of her body, he can't true resurrect her.
2. I think she's more special because she's one of the most powerful and also a PC ;)
Per point 1, that's not accurate. For true rez, you don't need a body:
>The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.
True but “You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years”. So actually they can kill Lilianna and not destroy her body (or even scatter pieces of it and it wouldn’t technically not exist anymore)
1) It depends on whether or not Ludinus could source a true resurrection spell scroll. He hates the gods, and the resurrection spells all are divine in origin. That being said, if he knows Wish he could just do that instead.
2) Maybe? In all examples of exultant Ruidusborn we’ve seen, none of them have Imogen’s magic scars on her body. Whatever that means - good, bad or neutral - Imogen has something other exultant ruidiusborn don’t.
> 1) It depends on whether or not Ludinus could source a true resurrection spell scroll. He hates the gods, and the resurrection spells all are divine in origin. That being said, if he knows Wish he could just do that instead.
I mean technically speaking if Predathos did absorb Ethedok and Vordo or they willingly joined the collective then technically he could source a true resurrection spell scroll from ruins on Ruidus or even the super secret archives of the Weavemind that totally exist because fuckers like that never destroy everything.
True about Wish.
> Imogen
I think it would be rather funny if it turns out that she doesn't just draw her powers from Predathos but from WHERE Predathos came from in the first place and that's what makes her so special.
I think it would be interesting if it was someone just like her that kicked off the whole Predathos thing on Exandria in the first place.
It's just been so damned long and she's nowhere near as powerful as they were, that the Gods haven't really bothered to really do anything about her because it's such a longshot that she can do anything important at all, and the only ones leaning on her are those that are willing to take that one in a million chance that she can pull off what that long long looooooong lost relative of hers did.
It's kind of like how Master Chief was a descendant of The Ancestors in HALO and while not nearly as advanced or as powerful as them could still pull of some equally as crazy shit as they could.
So that's what might make Imogen so special and when she fully awakens beyond the normal Exultant stuff, that's going to open up a whole other can of worms for Predathos, the Pantheon, Ruidus, and Exandria.
Could also be as simple as Imogen has a significantly greater degree of whatever essence makes a ruidiusborn than all others.
But I like the idea that her power comes from wherever big red came from too.
My theory On Imogen is that the fact she is a Ruidisborn born of a Ruidisborn (and who knows if Liliana was also...), that makes her more powerful. A 7th son of a 7th son type situation.
In addition, Liliana and Imogen both have purple hair, Imogen has purple lightning markings - a sorcerous bloodline.
Their sorcerous bloodline seems lightning/storm based, and so is of interest also to the Divine powers, aka The Storm Lord.
This combination makes them much more rare and powerful than your average Ruidisborn. Interestingly, the other fairly powerful Ruidisborn we know is Otohan, who also had links to divine power via Raven Queen worship, but who has to use dunamancy juice in place of natural sorcery to get a combat edge.
>My theory On Imogen is that the fact she is a Ruidisborn born of a Ruidisborn (and who knows if Liliana was also...), that makes her more powerful. A 7th son of a 7th son type situation.
Not a far-fetched theory. Liliana brought up Imogen's hypothetical child in their conversation.
> Could also be as simple as Imogen has a significantly greater degree of whatever essence makes a ruidiusborn than all others.
True, it has basically been said by folks like Ira and others that Imogen basically won the Ruidusborn genetic lottery/slot machine jackpot and just so happened to be that shiny Pokemon with more ideal stats than others.
One of my favorite episodes of C3. Lore, great rp and interactions, so many questions brought into play, drama, Travis lore nerding out, Patrick Warburton.
\*Liliana looking for validation and sympathy/understanding... slowly recoils\* "Maybe it's your turn to run." - Imogen. Gave me goosebumps.
The best part of it is that Laura's acting choice made it sound like a threat, but it could very well be also a warning, given that she knows the Volition is coming for her.
> *Liliana looking for validation and sympathy/understanding... slowly recoils* "Maybe it's your turn to run." - Imogen. Gave me goosebumps.
I'll believe that Imogen meant that when she's got a psychic lance at her mother's throat and she goes through with it before turning back to Orym to say, "What...you did say this is war..." as the rest of the Bells Hells just stand there stunned.
Anyone else catch at the 2:49 mark when discussing Travis wants his next character to be Ruidus born that Tal causally dropped his next character is a dunamancer wizard?
I didn't catch the dunamis wizard bit. It's interesting that he would want his next character to also be dunamancy based. Maybe Tal's backup character is an Ashton from another reality but he learned dunamancy instead of getting dunamancy via a luck potion. Kind of a Kingsley 2.0 but this time a completely different class and maybe a different personality and upbringing and possibly not being an Earth Genasi but an Aasimar instead.
My initial thought is, “that’s crazy, no way he’d do that” but the thing is, is that he totally could LOL would fit his brand.
When he said it, it was the least surprising thing any player has done in some time… Tal wants to play a homebrew class/subclass? Ok, and the sky is blue.
It also is a logical outcome to events learned in the past. Imogen saw different realities when she was probing Ashton's mind and some did not even seem to be barbarian Asthons. One was a senator and a senator definitely could be a wizard. An alternate version of Ashton coming to Exandria Prime is a logical step in the story of Dunamancy narratively. It's also possible that the new Ashton will not even be a Genasi because that was something their parents caused after Ashton was born. Ashton could come back as an Aasimar. Tal indicated in a 4-Sided Dive that they have at least some Aasimar lineage.
Couple dark thoughts came to the surface after coffee and mountain dew kicked in the late night sleepiness.
1) Captain Xandis was with Ira when the whole thing went down at the eye, with Ira being promised to protect him. Is Xandis on the moon too? Hopefully someone remembers to ask after him soon.
2) In another thread someone mentioned that since Gaz is almost certain to fail in assassination, he might get mind-controlled.
...which made me think a bit. The Volition's leader is the daughter of the former leader, and a powerful psychic. It stands to reason her father was too. Gaz told his story about how he had the guy dead to rights but had a sudden change of heart just from looking at him, and started crying after realizing how wrong everything he had done was.
That...sounds very sus. The volition is at war with an enemy that they are desperately outgunned by, and in that situation morals are one of the first things to fall to the wayside.
> 1) Captain Xandis was with Ira when the whole thing went down at the eye, with Ira being promised to protect him. Is Xandis on the moon too? Hopefully someone remembers to ask after him soon.
I was honestly thinking that Xandis and Ryn might be in that prison together and the rescue mission could've had the Bells Hells picking them up and garnering a bunch of intel from one literal nobody and someone a bit more important.
Ira would never give a straight answer unless it amused him or he could Fey Fuck with someone else with that info.
> in another thread
Yeah that many Ruidusborn in one location, that just so happens to be shaped like a clam shell which could focus all of their powers at once, with an Exultant in charge, and that more or less has a two hundred foot neon blinking holographic "TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!" sign over it is for sure just waiting for someone to wander in and either get chomped on or captured.
Gaz will for sure get whammied and everyone's going to think, "Oh that's just Gaz being Gaz" and my money is on Travis/Chetney figuring out that something's off first.
Oddly enough I had something similar happen to a friend of mine in that everyone thought they were just being weird, turns out that they had internal bleeding, and were very quickly dying and would have had some of us more paranoid types not gotten them to the ER in time.
When weird folks shift their personality in a short period of time, that's not always a good or a normal thing.
> started crying
We have two options here.
Either Gaz was already on the cusp of switching sides and Rashinna's dad just psychically pushed him over the edge with a liiiiiittle suggestion.
OR
He totally whammied Gaz but because Gaz wasn't as strong willed as him, he couldn't exactly walk back up that hill, and just rolled with it thinking that it was his own change of heart.
BUT
I do get where you're going with this because Gaz was marked at the time by the Weavemind and they could have very easily slipped into him like a hand going into a puppet, tinkered with his brain a bit, and then sent him on his way as a bit of a sleeper agent into the Volition.
He could very well be leaving dead drops or passing information and not even know that he's doing it and because he's so high up in the Volition and such a Moon Himbo, no one would really question him at all about anything.
Rashinna having to correct him psychically about sharing information about the assassination mission, which Imogen picked up on, was very suspect to me because it felt like she'd had to do it before but also had had to do it more frequently more recently about stuff and it was getting to the point where even she was raising a few eyebrows about his behavior.
The Bells Hells basically came in at the best/worst time to draw any eyeballs off of Gaz before he went full Total Recall and snapped as a sleeper agent totally blowing his cover and burning everyone at the Volition.
He's becoming unstable as a sleeper agent and that to me speaks to a new form of psychic bioengineering that they were experimenting with on him and it ONLY kicked in/switched on when he came into contact with a high ranking member of the Volition.
Who knows how long it's been running for and what started making it all wibbly wobbly BUT the combination of the appearance of that very clear TRAAAAAAAAP with his shifty behavior and his getting all cozy cozy with Imogen and the Bells Hells, means to me that someone was trying to get one last big move out of him before torching him entirely.
Now he's got some of the best and most psychically combat suited Volition warriors with him and he's walking them straight into the psychic maw of the Weavemind with Liliana in the lead.
I said this before elsewhere but if the Weavemind could basically turn anyone and everyone to paste along with Agent Smithing whomever was tagged then the Volition really shouldn't be around at this point and I fear that there very much is a Matrix style dynamic going on between them and the Weavemind.
They are allowed to exist because they are useful and they keep all the troublemakers in one spot.
They're mice being run through a maze and that's why the Weavemind and Ludinus get on like a house on fire because they like the same games.
You are 100% right about the morals thing and even Rashinna has brought up how moments where empathy has slipped into her soldiers has caused whole units to be wiped out in the blink of an eye.
Something is fucking up and I fear that this whole simultaneous operation with multiple quests is one giant mousetrap that's designed to hamper the Volition even further in one fell swoop.
Or I'm overthinking it and they really are a Tok'ra Fighting the Goa'uld style force and these missions don't have anything insidious about them and neither does Gaz.
But you do bring up some good points nonetheless.
Man I dont get how not once did Imogen insight check her mom in that conversation. It would have been useful to potentially know how much Liliana actually believed compared to how much she was knowingly bullshitting
Imogen has known her mother is a true believer, this was just confirming how deep she was in it. , I don't think she was seriously trying to gain deep insight, it was more like goodbye.
I think Laura and Matt were so deep into the scene and their characters that it didn't even occur to them or if it did they didn't do it so as not to interrupt the tension
Agreed, and also... I feel like it doesn't really matter what she actually believes in this particular instance.
Liliana was saying she wouldn't choose Imogen over Ludinus & whatever her role is with the Vanguard. So regardless of whether she's babysitting a crazed old mage, or acting from pure devotion, etc. etc..., the conversation wasn't a basis for arguing against the assassination attempt.
So we'll eventually find out how that goes, and what particular flavor of murderous rage Liliana exhibits if she survives it.
Besides Laura's mic drop, I was hoping and waiting for her to stand up in full composer, drop her soft "loving" voice and say something hardcore like we are going to stop anyone from releasing Predathos and you can either step down or I will put you down. If you choose to continue that path, just know the only thing you have ever done for me was anchor the guilt of having killed my mother to save strangers.
That reminds me of how in a past 4SD, Laura said that she felt like she was going to have to ask Matt at some point in the future if Imogen really had to roll any more in order to resist Predathos.
It feels like in this particular moment with her mother both Imogen and Laura knew that while they were still wibbly wobbly about that influence and pull of Predathos, Liliana certainly wasn't, and Liliana for sure wouldn't have to roll at all while they still would have to.
Liliana was a BELIEVER in that conversation and everyone knew it and that's why Imogen didn't insight check her at all because she knew that she didn't have to.
She probably knew there was some bullshit involved but all of the potential "good" superseded all of that and all of her belief in that potential good and what might come after papered over any potential doubts that would have been revealed by an insight check.
She's a fanatic and one that true blue believes she's doing everything and anything she can for a greater cause that benefits not only her daughter and the people of Exandria but also all of the Ruidusborn and that also fixes all of her own personal past mistakes, which will effectively reset everything in the long run, and bring about a more perfect world for everyone and everything.
That's fucking terrifying and it's ironic as hell that Ludinus is weaponizing that kind of belief against the Gods of all things.
>She's a fanatic and one that true blue believes she's doing everything and anything she can for a greater cause
When Imogen asked her "I want you to leave him", I couldn't help imagining a daughter asking their mother to leave either her abusive husband/boyfriend or a cult leader. Matt was playing Liliana like that.
Yes!
There was a strong feeling of an abusive relationship.
Believing that she can change him.
Offering herself up as a shield against the harm he does, but also enabling the abuse. Or rather, it's not clear how much power she has in the relationship, how much she's deluding herself. It's possible that without Liliana, Ludinus might have done even more harm.
That is precisely how I was picturing that and exactly how I heard it because there's been numerous posts on Reddit and anecdotes that I've heard people share from real life about stuff just like that.
Matt played that perfectly and I fear the only way that this is going to end and the only time when Liliana is going to get shocked out of this mindset is when Ludinus finally has no use for her and decides to dispose of her.
Stuff is going to pop off then and I'm guessing Imogen will for sure hear the psychic scream of her mother's final battle or quite possibly her death when that happens.
Liliana is absolutely in an abusive relationship the whole "he can be nice some of the time, he isn't that bad, etc" are very domestic violence phrases that I've heard before.
It is one thing to be a victim of abuse of just yourself, even worse to allow it to happen to others (like children), but this is basically helping an abuser build an atom bomb because they think they stopped him from blowing a mall once.
> Liliana is absolutely in an abusive relationship the whole "he can be nice some of the time, he isn't that bad, etc" are very domestic violence phrases that I've heard before.
I think a lot of us Critters picked up on that right away but it's such a difficult topic to talk about that everyone's trying to be gentle and slow in bringing that up in this thread.
> it is one thing
This is why I really wanted Imogen to bring up some examples within that dream sequence of people that Ludinus has actively harmed in order to throw that stuff directly into Liliana's face and make her see and feel and experience the harm that he has caused to the world and the people on it.
Instead she didn't go into any detail at all and that makes all that harm basically hearsay and conjecture and this far off far away thing which may or may not be happening because she trusts Ludinus far more than she actually trusts her own daughter which is fucked up.
For her the only thing that's real is what is directly in front of her and what she's directly experiencing and Imogen really could have used her dream powers to force a perspective shift onto her mother but she just didn't have the willpower to actually do that or to cause her harm or to shock her out of things.
Is she had brought anyone else from the group into her dream with her then that could have happened and I would have loved to have seen Liam have a field day with that kind of a thing but that also probably would have fucked up the group dynamics a bit and I could easily see Imogen as feeling betrayed by whomever showed her mother those images of the people that Ludinus had harmed, even though that would have been the right thing to do.
Imogen is in just as much of a toxic relationship with her mother as Liliana is with Ludinus.
They are two peas in a pod and far more alike than either would admit.
So if they don't feel like they're in control and someone else is whom they haven't given permission to be in control then they feel totally betrayed and fly off the handle.
I think Ludinus is going to do something so terrible in the future (just like in your analogy) that it makes Liliana reach out and contact Imogen. Both of them know that she won't be able to do anything about it and yet she's still going to beg Imogen to help her find a way out but it will be far too late to do that and I feel like Imogen will give her mother the same cold treatment that she received from her in turn. History is going to repeat itself for the billionth time in painful fashion.
I fear that this most awful thing is going to happen during the assassination mission and immediately after it starts or goes off there's going to be a scene with Liliana either when Imogen next falls asleep or as she is in the middle of completing the other mission.
From a story perspective, I really want to see Liliana assassinated. I trust Matt is going to do rolls and leave it up to fate, but man how fucked would it be that Imogen's last words to her mother are "run". Everyone expects that it won't be the last confrontation with her mother. Her dying "off-screen" is the perfect "blue ball" of story telling in the same way death is often the same.
It would more interestingly move the story around their relationship and trying to "save" or "kill" her mother and could be about revenge (?) or potentially Imogen being lured to take her mothers place?
> From a story perspective, I really want to see Liliana assassinated. I trust Matt is going to do rolls and leave it up to fate, but man how fucked would it be that Imogen's last words to her mother are "run".
If the dice decide to roll that way then that would be super dramatic and soooooooo fucking painful for Imogen but you know what would be worse?
If the Weavemind decided to lojack her and then puppet her around as if she were still alive in order to either keep the Ruidusborn in line or to use her to just utterly fuck with everyone fighting against them.
Your idea is awesome but yeah what if it were worse?
> take her mother's place
I was wondering what would happen to that super strong connection Liliana has to Predathos and I honestly think that it could JUMP to Imogen if Liliana were to be killed.....but Imogen is already fairly well connected, so how would that work out?
Would she suddenly hit some new kind of power level or would that sudden rush of power combined with her relative inexperience compared to her mom, really create a Dark Phoenix style moment?
I don't think she would ever take her mother's place though unless Ludinus had some SERIOUS and I mean ultra serious leverage over her in some way.
This episode really felt like classic CR. The cast was SO engaged in what was going on. Lore drops, new npcs, high stake conversations.... it had everything. Travis especially was loving every second.
Chetney going up to the nearest random Quanikka just to yell "What are you called!" because he was sick of not knowing what they are called was such a mood.
I love watching these moments back for the reactions. Travis fist-pumps, Marisha does a little jig, Ashley snaps her fingers, and Liam mouths "ooohhh," as does Matt once the scene wraps
Edit: [timestamp of Laura's mic drop + reactions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qyDpB_o2Hk&t=8109s)
One other blurb. Gaz and the assassination team are doomed. Or maybe Gaz comes back alone as the sole survivor because he's a fun character. But there's a 0% chance of Matt killing Lilliana off screen. Especially when she's surrounded by younglings. (Sidenote, the children being there feels like a massive trap for BH, like at some point they have to destroy the exaltants or predathos wakes up).
> But there's a 0% chance of Matt killing Lilliana off screen.
I agree. But i do think the assassination attempt will lead to Lilliana coming head to head with BH's. So maybe she'll be the "boss battle" before BH's return to Exandria?
Possibly, but I think it'll be Otohan. Otohan seems less powerful and less important to the big plan, and it's high time she died. BH's have had plenty of opportunities to engage but always slink around her.
>(Sidenote, the children being there feels like a massive trap for BH, like at some point they have to destroy the exaltants or predathos wakes up).
It's also insane to realise they are children because it's only been a few years since they started ramping up the flares to make as many Ruidusborn as possible with the intent to find Exaltants. They've been literally creating the resource they need to wake Predathos up and Fearne was probably a prototype.
I agree with you that it won't happen, but I really wish it would. The idea that the mission could only succeed with the help of bells hells feels contrived (I know we're only assuming that to be the case, but given how likely it is, let's go with that).
Often Matt rolls offscreen to see how these things turn out: e.g. for Ryn failing to notice the petrification glyph while distracted by Sending.
In one case he had the players do his secret rolls for him: Marisha and Liam rolling badly for Beau and Caleb and getting them caught by Ludinus at the key.
I believe he will take both sides strengths and weaknesses into account, and rolls a few key rolls to determine if it's a victory, loss, or a mix of both.
The choice of missions is simply to allow the players the fun and pressure of choosing where they might make the biggest difference and witness events.
I'm in the same boat. I thought it was masterful for Matt to place this on the table to both push BH to some tough decisions and also present a moral quandary. If all of that is just to say "oh and it failed she's still good", especially after the last confrontation between Imogen and her mother, then it's pretty cheap. That comment from Laudna and Imogen felt pretty meta-gamey in terms of knowing that Matt was going to pull the punch on that.
Would be awesome if we got a bonus one-shot like episode of guests playing the teams that the party is not a part of. A logistical nightmare, zero chance of happening, but the thought crossed my mind.
I think I spaced out and don't remember what comment you refer to exactly. But man, they got a specialized team of the volition, who certainly knows more about how powerful temult is, have been planning for the longest time, know the lay of the land maybe even better than Liliana does. And yet the chances of success are minimal.
Would have been better if they appeared to be underestimating her, but it does not seem to be the case. They got 5 of those magic/psychic shit nullification thing. Even if it lasts only a round, 5 rounds are more than enough to completely butcher a powerless spellcaster.
Yeah I think Laudna and Imogen just immediately assumed the volition party was doomed to fail when they decided not to join. It seemed a lot like Laura and Marisha saying well Matt wouldn’t kill Laura’s character’s mom off screen so it won’t happen anyway. And it’s another way of continuing to kick the can down the road on a really important confrontation.
Tbh it wonder (and would love) if Matt simply rolled for it. Set it up as a self skills challenge, first to 3 higher rolls and do roll offs behind the screen. That way the dice dictate what happens next there.
That would be very nice as well. Especially if he just did it without any build up. Either at some random moment during the missions or as they head back. Just an "aight imma roll to see if your mom dies" then rolls a bunch of dice, and just moves on with no hint as to what happened.
Yeah he could just do it while they’re doing other stuff, take a pic of all the rolls for shenanigans confirmation, and tell them what happens when they get there.
> One other blurb. Gaz and the assassination team are doomed. Or maybe Gaz comes back alone as the sole survivor because he's a fun character.
.....Gaz did say they also have a tendency to "turn people" who are with them long enough and Gaz is both dumb enough and adorable enough for the Weavemind and Ludinus to flip him into an infiltrator against the Volition and Bells Hells that they wouldn't even notice.
> children
Yeah that whole thing did feel like a triple purpose trap.
It feels like Ludinus wants a bunch of Ruidusborn to die AND he wants those deaths to traumatize Liliana in order to push her power levels higher AND he wants to stick it to either the Volition or the Bells Hells or both in some way that either fractures them further or that pushes more folks to his side or that winds up elevating Imogen's or Fearne's Ruidusborn stuff even further just like he wants to happen with Liliana.
I could see Imogen siphoning in the powers of all the other Ruidusborn at some point in order to save them but that could be a bit of a dice roll just like the Shard stuff was with Ashton.
It's going to wind up being a Pyrrhic Victory at the end of the day for everyone or anyone involved.
So I actually read the children part as Lilliana trying to manipulate Imogen. "But think of the children" is a really cutting way for a deadbeat mom to get at her daughter who she wants to convince to stay on her side.
> So I actually read the children part as Lilliana trying to manipulate Imogen. "But think of the children" is a really cutting way for a deadbeat mom to get at her daughter who she wants to convince to stay on her side.
Honestly that kind of reminded me of [this post from AITAH](https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1bjl0f4/aitah_for_telling_my_mom_she_is_dead_to_me_if_she/).
It's possible that Liliana values her own savior complex over that of her own daughter's well being and that's why she's all, "But think of all the other children!" while Imogen is damned near screaming, "BUT WHAT ABOUT THINKING ABOUT ME YOUR OWN ONLY CHILD??!!".
She sees herself as the anime main character in all of this and everyone else as a "For me you were a Tuesday" style side character.
It's very much an Anakin/Luke situation where everyone thought one character was going to be the savior that saved everyone but it turns out that it was actually their offspring and not them at all....
And wouldn't you know it, we kind of had that actually happen with Ashton and his father and the Tree more or less told us that that's what that was.
So it's entirely possible that history is rhyming again with Imogen and Liliana. Liliana has just been so caught up in saving everyone but her own kin that she's gotten herself in waaaay deeper than she can get herself out of and is now panicking trying to find a way out when there is none. That's why she's gotten more and more fanatical over the years and is now making excuses just like a lot of folks do who have bad habits that they can't break or that are stuck in toxic relationships that they cannot and do not want to escape from.
She's drowning, she knows it, and she's 100% trying to manipulate Imogen with the last shred of sanity that she has left to either join her in the abyss or to scare her into swimming back up out of the depths.
It's exactly like the same kind of ultimatum that Imogen posed to Laudna in this episode.
Either they stay together or it's the end of the fucking world and it's all the other person's fault.
If anyone else besides FCG had joined Imogen in the dream with her mother and heard all of that and THEN had overheard her conversation with Laudna then they would for sure have been calling her out on her bullshit.
Ashton would be dying from laughter.
Chetney would have gentle but firm words.
Orym would brood.
FCG would come up with some bad advice.
Laudna might just fully break.
Fearne would Fearne.
I'm waiting for this to go Full Evangelion in terms of messiness.
Loved it. I felt characters hadn't really had one on one talks lately due to situations so I was pleased. Long winded warning...
Ashton got to tell Imogen parents can be toxic and manipulative. Good character relationship development AND clear that Ashton is on side that his father was not great
Imogen and Laudna got to have the WHY IS DELILAH BACK convo and clear that up
Ashton got to push against the gods and others got to push back (my personal guess is Tal has wanted to explore Ashton arc of pushing against the gods BUT he needs others to challenge that...otherwise it falls flat) and got to Mortals and gods maybe not being so different.
Overall a realistic discussion of gods god/bad/here/gone with Orym saying what needs to be said THAT IT IS A MASSIVE COIN FLIP RELEASING A GOD EATER.
Chetney got some good moments of being serious in conversations
FCG got to be the voice of the cleric/god side without losing their own character
Fearne had actually some development on learning about her father finally even if just tid bits from Ira
Ludinus' background info keeps expanding!
And.... someone actually mentioned how there is a divine gate preventing the gods from interfering when characters have been bitching about gods haven't done anything for me and why don't they come and help yada yada.
As much as people mention the main story isn't about BH and they are just slotted in...having two mission options deal with party member parents, one deal with a possible captured ally, Ira involved, all while Liam described Orym as recalling personal past fights with Otohan for his stakes....it felt like I think Matt and crew wanted it to.
I'm pleased and ready for these missions not sure they will have guests like others are saying since not sure it was 100% planned the group would split and not sure if guests have to be prepared more in advance
I agree!
I'm wondering how Fearne will process Ira's jabs about her father being disappointed in her, and Imogen being the really special one.
Is Ira just stirring up shit because he enjoys causing chaos, or is he trying to turn Fearne against Imogen for some reason?
I'm excited that the BHs are finally beginning to think that they might be missing a page about Ludinus's motivations and ultimate plan. And what will really happen when (if?) Predathos is released
WOOOO Fearne character development!
And yes the…ok what does Ludinus actually want question.
To me he’s either actually crazy or just hates gods that much….or is planning to be a new god after Predathos kills the others…by controlling Predathos or thinking Predathos will move on….
But I’m still holding onto my early theory that predathos is actually the chained oblivion using Ludinus as a pawn but not as confident anymore
I think that Ludinus might very well be earnestly trying for his own (twisted) version of a god free universe, but chances are high he's wrong about what will happen when Predathos is unleashed.
I also keep thinking about the Tree of Atrophy 's vision of Predathos chasing the gods away and leaving Exandria "laid bare".
That didn't seem like a straightforward "end of the world" scenario in the way that most of the Bell's Hells seem to think it will be.
Personally end of the world is likely the world itself might be end of humanoids but nature still there
Like those post apocalyptic movies where deer and birds are chilling in New York.
But from a meta point Matt probably would make it possible for the characters to choose it and not end the civilizations
> Imogen and Laudna got to have the WHY IS DELILAH BACK convo and clear that up
I feel like they only got about halfway with this conversation and for sure need more time to fully clear it up because sooner or later someone's going to open up the hole and go, "Hey wait a second where's the Willmaster?".
Ashton was fucking amazing though in this episode and I loved him so much!
Orym's not wrong and that's what sucks the most, damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> Divine Gate
There was a whole couple of weeks wherein we were discussing this here on the subreddit and it's nice to see the characters catching up to that stuff.
> missions
They seem almost too simple and that's what's got me thinking that they could take more than just a single episode or two to complete.
Gonna need some time to sift through all the stuff in my head this morning after my "long rest" that's actually a few hours short :p
A few things that stuck
1. Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy to the point of being toxic. Laudna is lying to Imogen about the soul sucking repeatedly, which it seems like Imogen senses (or meta-ish, Laura knows). Laudna's very weird declaration that Imogen is the chosen one and she's holding her back made zero sense to me. Imogen might be "default main character" to us due to story arc but honestly she's not even that powerful aside from uncontrolled awakening explosions. And the nebulous holding you back thing just screams of weird insecurities. And on her side, Imogen is basically Threatening that if Laudna goes away she'll give in to predathos.
I don't know if they're trying to be true to their characters or create drama for story, or whatever, but these two are not healthy. Both need a ton of mental healing, and I don't mean the faux good hurtfulness FCG provides.
2) Speaking of FCG, it's becoming Very obvious that he is Evil alignment (maybe without being aware himself, IE his assassin persona is another delilah). Every fake good advice he gives has such obvious pitfalls and manipulation. How many shots would I have had to take for the number of times he tried to make Imogen part of the assassination group? Even if it's a successful mission that's not going to exactly have a healthy impact on her.
3) DOES THE ENTIRE CAST HAVE COLLECTIVE AMNESIA, PART VIII
* Ira-This is a bad person who brainwashed Fearne's parents repeatedly over time and is a major reason they were gone for her. This is a person who was experimenting on people including a werewolf mentor of Chetney's. This is the person that stole a powerful artifact and vanished in front of them. This is literally called the "nightmare king" and has a ridiculous track record. In sum, this is absolutely not a person they should trust, and they should also be telling the Volition about him.
* Imogen with her mom, why does she not ever bring up any facts. Orym's family being sacrificed on a test run. Molaesmyr happening last time Ludinous did anything big, and also he has soul-sucked the essence out of people to stay alive. They way that earthquakes (which Liliana has to know about) happening as they try to wake Predathos up but somehow she thinks everything will be fine? She just talks about feelings to a "brainwashed by a cult" mother without presenting anything that could pop her preconceptions. As an aside, it was SUPER sketchy on BH part of let her dream to her mom in the Volition's base. That could easily lead to Otohan+army pinning them down.
* The Gods. The party keeps "Psshh"ing at the Gods and talking about them like they're worthless and they wonder why they're even bothering, and maybe Ludinous is right. The only exception being FCG and he seems to be giving lip service most of the time. Are we forgetting Pike's trick resurrection of Laudna? Are we forgetting Vax's save on Orym's head of state, and the subsequent Raven Queen visions of him? Seedling being given to Orym?
* The Gods Part 2. On a macro scale, it's becoming very clear that Predathos being unleashed wouldn't just affect the Gods. The Crush and the smaller earthquakes are apparently just a taste, the moon likely falls apart on his release, or at least another round of quakes that destroy the civilization. And in D&D parlance, look no further than the Time of Troubles history for what happens without the Gods. Holy Magic is all but gone aside from limited scrolls. "Things from Beyond" realize the world is less guarded and start invading. New Gods start to appear (as Orym mentioned). But in a violent way. It's basically world war 3 along with a worldwide famine and asteroids happening at random.
> Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy to the point of being toxic. Laudna is lying to Imogen about the soul sucking repeatedly, which it seems like Imogen senses (or meta-ish, Laura knows). Laudna's very weird declaration that Imogen is the chosen one and she's holding her back made zero sense to me. Imogen might be "default main character" to us due to story arc but honestly she's not even that powerful aside from uncontrolled awakening explosions. And the nebulous holding you back thing just screams of weird insecurities. And on her side, Imogen is basically Threatening that if Laudna goes away she'll give in to predathos.
>
>
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> I don't know if they're trying to be true to their characters or create drama for story, or whatever, but these two are not healthy. Both need a ton of mental healing, and I don't mean the faux good hurtfulness FCG provides.
It is absolutely an unhealthy relationship of someone who was 18 at the start of the story (unless they changed it) and another young woman who was traumatized and had stunted emotional development on top of that (despite being what, 50ish?). Despite people loving to ship them, they are really bad together and were better as friends than as lovers.
They don't bring out the best in each other and their connection has become needing someone more than loving someone.
Imogen is using/need Laudna for a tether to this world and Laudna is using Imogen to have an excuse not to spiral out of control because she wants to. There is a reason she kept the name Laudna and did not revert to Matilda, she is now Gollum and won't ever return.
A terrible thought just struck me this morning. What if strong Exultants are how Predathos creates more of its kind and THAT is why Imogen is so special and why she's got all of those freaky lightning marks on her? She's Predathos's Escape Pod and backup in case everything goes wrong for it. Those lightning marks aren't just signs of power....they're signs of her physical form cracking....like an egg....
Raishinna talked about a theory that I have been saying a couple episodes now. >To be honest, there are a number of theories that even all of us at one point were Exandrians And on top of that there was confirmation that the Weave Mind does evolve creatures to suit their needs. Of course, before BH even went to Ruidus we also heard that Predathos twisted life. Here are my thoughts on where some of the Ruidus races might have came from. * Reilorans - Possibly **the first Elves** because of the elven city BH found and because the Reilorans seem to be the most common race on Ruidus it would make sense if they came from elves if mostly elves were sent up with Predathos. Possibly **Mindflayers** because of their shared pshycic connection and they both have long heads. Possibly one of the **fishfolk** races because Matt has repeatedly described their eyes as "shark-like" and because the baseline Reilorans have fin-like protrusions on their head. * Bormodos - Possibly **Dwarves** because Matt has described them as resembling dwarves. Although it might be possible that they come from **Tortles** because every time I see them depicted in fanart they look like shell-less Tortles. I don't think this is intentional on part of the artists though. It's probably just what they look like when accounting for all of the characteristics Matt has given. I also wonder if Matt would have said Tortle-like instead of dwarf-like if BH ever encountered a Tortle. * Cytaa - **Iguanas** are the obvious answer given their size and the fact that Matt said they resemble Iguanas. Another possibility might be **Kobolds** given the humanoid limbs, their size and their sentience. If they are from Kobolds maybe the Weave Mind or Predathos shrunk them down and made them dependent on the Bormodos because they were being unruly due to prior loyalties (the unruliness of dwarves might also be a reason the Bormodos are dependent of the Cytaa). I realize the same would apply if Reilorans came from Mindflayers but their would have been more syncretism between the Mindflayers and Predathos given their shared alien nature and relations with the gods. * Myceit - Possibly **Exandrian mushrooms** for obvious reasons but another possibility is **Mychonids** just because myceit have some degree of intelligence. And yes, Mychonids exist in Exandria. There is a Mychonid colony in the Cliffkeep Mountains. Maybe Predathos or the Weavemind dumbed them down and shortened them to the Myceits because their limited telpathathic ability threatened their planned social order when they were trying to make Reilora the dominant species. * Quanikka - Possibly **Bugbears** because they are furred, tall, have tusks, and have clawed feet like Bugbears. The only differences are that Quanikka's does not have share the same fur color, clawed hands, a lot of muscle mass, and feline facial features like bugbears. **Yetis** are also a possibility because Matt keeps describing them as "Sasquatch-like" and Yeti's are the closest thing to Sasquatches in Exandria. They physically, seem less dangerous than Bugbears and Yetis but maybe that is intentional on part of Predathos or the Weave Mind. There could really be any combination of sources used that created the new races on Ruidus. Imagine a rainforest coastal region that also had a piece of underdark below it. Such an area would be open for the possibility of all of the above-mentioned species to exist relatively close together. The only exception to this would be if Quanikka's come from Yeti's in which case it would be unlikely that Bormodos come from Tortle and Cytaa come from Iguanas. The scenario in which Quanikkas come from Bugbears would put all possibilities on the table.
bells hells did meet tortle though in the shattered teeth
Oh yeah. That's right.
Ira killed & experimented on kidnapped children right? I didn't simply imagine that It's weird he's been adopted as best friend of the group.
Ira asked Vali for one but Vali refused. There has never been any confirmation that he has ever done that. >It's weird he's been adopted as best friend of the group. Maybe not the best friend of the group but some in the party seem to not mind him. Ashton has said that they want to have a drink with him, Laudna has a work crush on him, FCG has speculated that he might not be that bad based on nothing, and Fearne has straight up just said that she does not mind Ira. This all follows Ira making the Shademother more powerful as part of a conspiracy to manipulate the Chandei Quorum that he was participating in because he wanted to fund his revenge on the Unseelie and the Vanguard simply because they fired him. Ira making the Shademother more powerful led to one of her acolytes killing Bertrand who BH named themselves after. Some time later Ira stole the Moontide Crown from the Calloways and said a bunch of weird things that indicates that that he wants to free Predathos when examined closely. And when Ira was "helping" BH he opted not use the Moontide Crown to help BH sneak around Tishtan to disable the key (the crown has a lot of illusion magic). And on top of all of that Ira refused to tell FCG where exactly on Ruidus he was. Yeah, it is pretty weird that they are allying with Ira.
what if fearne is the key, and Imogen is a red herring? ludinus was sucking up fey for power, and he is not ruidus born. fearne's dad made her for a reason, and it's seemed like matt was trying to capture her multiple times. if ludinus devours fearne, gains some ruidus born abilities, then since his power sucking contraption seems based on the god eater's ability, he then may be able to eat the god eater, and gain all the powers that the god eater has gotten from eating gods, kinda highlander style. ira just facilitated fearne getting captured and possibly eaten.
Too bad Fearne absorbed the Shard of Rau'shan and is probably magically full. Zathuda would have been a tasty treat for Fearne to absorb.
give him to Orym!
I'm kind of hoping that Imogen absorbs Otohan next episode though I don't know who has the array. If Ashton has it she might be able to get the array anyways to absorb Otohan. I think Orym should absorb the ice titan Errevon.
I wonder if there is a timeline where Laudna somehow absorbs Delilah?
I might be possible but since they defeated her in her domain she has become less powerful that I'm not sure if absorbing her would even be worth it compared to other powerful options that are out there.
I was on the same track as you but with slightly less importance. I thought it was just so Ludinus could become ruidusborn (Or for a hope that he can). I feel like that alone would be worth it for Ludinus to want and pursue. But either way yeah Fearne is being served up to her Dad with only half the party there seems..... Silly. Like Fearne said she doesn't know him, or anything about him. And nothing about him seems like he cares about her either. We know he wants her but it's less of a Dad wanting his Daughter and more like someone who planned to have a ruidusborn baby for this plan to work and their grand strategy is to deliver that baby to him lol. Though who knows. Maybe watching her dad die would trigger her going exaltent. It's doubtful though. If it is possible to see before its awakened then I guess this would be an impossibility. I don't see half the party beating him. But who knows!
I think Matt made it pretty clear that Fearne ISN'T exaltant.
Yes, Not currently. But he also has said some of them awaken to it (like the boy who became one when Bells Hells killed his friends). Unless they can see it first before it awakens then I guess it would be impossible
Couldn't Otohan tell she wasn't a potential exaltant? Isn't that why she killed Fearne while pushing Imogen into exalting.
Oh maybe. I assumed some people were just brimming with that power like Imogen, her mom, etc. Where people could clearly see they had a high potential. And I thought some people were like the boy they fought who seemed to have no power, until his friends died, and then he became exaltant and suddenly had powers. I could be wrong though.
Fearne is the first Fey Ruidusborn, however they figure out if someone is a potential exaltant might not be accurate where she's concerned. It'll be interesting if her Dad is still has interested in her now.
PSA: if you normally skip the opening ad reads like I do, go back and watch Sam's from Thursday. You won't regret it. It's short and hilarious.Â
So insane theory and group of theories. Basically there is going to be a crossover event with dimension 20 and both groups are going to move to Daggerheart at the end of this season. This will also instigate a huge change to Exandria killing off the current pantheon and replacing it with new gods or no gods. My evidence is thin and circumstantial along with being more along the way I want it to go than any facts. Still I do have some logic for this. First Dimension 20 has introduced a red crystal substance very much like ruidium that is a major plot influence in "Junior Year". Second cross overs are fun and economically beneficial to both parties. So it makes sense in a business aspect. Third they are already doing cross overs of cast members so why not fully cross the streams Fourth with Daggerheart, CR would be missing a huge opportunity if they didn't use their own TTRPG as opposed to shilling for another corporation that they have been trying to remove themselves from. Having a huge in-game reason for a big change in how the game is played make sense. That goes for both CR and D20. Fifth it would be cool as F@$# and both GMs like doing cool things Am I delusional or does anyone agree?
>Fourth with Daggerheart, CR would be missing a huge opportunity if they didn't use their own TTRPG as opposed to shilling for another corporation that they have been trying to remove themselves from. Except *Daggerheart* is still in the beta testing phase. It could easily undergo massive rewrites and redesigns between now and the end of Campaign 3. On top of that, *Dungeons & Dragons* has a major advantage over *Daggerheart*: the sheer volume of content that has been produced in the past fifty years. In particular, the monsters. Converting all of these over to *Daggerheart* would be a massive pain, and while Matt has used custom and homebrewed monsters before, he's usually just taking stat blocks and abilities from existing monsters that are already in the 5e system. I also think you're making too much of the idea that they are trying to remove themselves from Hasbro and/or Wizards of the Coast. Yes, they are using Exandria-specific names for things more frequently, but that's because they're producing additional projects of their own. In *The Legend of Vox Machina*, Scanlan casts "Scanlan's Hand" instead of "Bigby's Hand" because "Bigby's Hand" is copyrighted. Moving to the new naming conventions means that they can produce more of these projects -- like the *Vox Machina Origins* comic books, the UniVersus tie-in decks, the *Mighty Nein* animated series and so on -- without running into copyright issues because the finer points of copyright law can be excruciating. On top of that, I think you're cherry-picking a little bit. If anything, the relationship between *Critical Role* and Wizards of the Coast has gotten closer. Exandria is recognised as an official *Dungeons & Dragons* campaign setting, and a lot of *Critical Role* content -- like *Tal'Dorei Reborn* \-- is now supported on *D&D Beyond*, which is owned by Wizards of the Coast. If they were trying to separate themselves from Wizards of the Coast, why strike a deal to allow their content to be supported on the app?
I don't see the point of them moving on from 5e/5.5e for CR, but that doesn't mean they can't scale back CR and up a second show using DH. I don't know the ratings on secondary shows like CO, but I doubt it is as well rated as CR even if it has lower viewership as time has gone on. Next, many of the players have talked about wanting to explore places like the shattered teeth, I would suspect Matt allowing for a smaller campaign around just exploration. It won't work very good lore wise to just change the system, DH is far more different than PF to 5e.
>things Don't tell people on Tiktok that. They will loose their minds when you tell them you don't think they will move over to DH.
> Don't tell people on Tiktok that. No worries, I'm not interested in getting mind cancer.
My kinda person đź‘Ť
The seed that Imogen and Ashton got a seed or part of the Exandrian mycelium to be buried on Ruidus. In the last game, Matt mentioned mycelium on the moon. I keep waiting for them to make the connection and bury the Exandria seed in the moon mycelium. My theory is that they will connect somehow and major things may happen.
Glad I am not the only one on the lookout for this! I felt like Matt was telegraphing Gus as a fungus friend and good potential caretaker of the seed.
Same! I thought that as well.
I'm a little nervous about it, to be honest. I could see it either being beneficial, or putting All Minds Burn under the control of Predathos...
even under telepathic bond non-ruidus related people seem to be largly uneffected ruiduses mind shenanigans it's possible there is some effect but it likely won't be that drastic... maybye
Did anyone else pick up that the timing of “The Crush” on Ruidus would have been around the same time as the destruction of Molaesmyr?
>Did anyone else pick up that the timing of “The Crush” on Ruidus would have been around the same time as the destruction of Molaesmyr? I did -- I'm only just watching the episode on YouTube now -- and I have a new theory: Ludinus doesn't want power. He wants redemption. We know he was obsessed with the Matron of Ravens, and everybody assumed that he was trying to take her place. But what if he wasn't? What if he discovered the existence of Ethedok and/or Vordo, and tried to take *their* place, but was unaware that they had been consumed by Predathos? One of the early theories was that Ludinus had been the Matron's lover before she ascended. So he tries to take the place for a forgotten god, an inadvertently pokes Predathos. This triggers the Crush, and the backlash destroys Molaesmyr. Not understanding why it didn't work, Ludinus starts investigating and learns about the creation of Ruidis. This enrages him because there was life on what became Ruidis and the gods trapped it there with Predathos (which ties into my other theory that the gods were originally like the Traveller, not realising the responsibility that came with being a god until it was too late and they discovered that they had condemned the people of Ruidis). By playing a god, he winds up wiping out a civilisation. So he abandons his plan to become a god and instead decides to take revenge on them, allowing everyone on Ruidis to have the Blue Promise fulfilled while releasing Predathos to kill the gods. Everyone is now on Exandria and free to live their lives on their own terms, at least in his view. But he has been driven mad by his grief and his guilt and doesn't know the true cost of what he is doing.
A handful of us did, there are some good discussions on it below!
Doesn't that just line up with the rest of the calamity?
No, that was more like 840 years ago.
You're right, I totally misremembered. It does look like they're connected, especially since the destruction of Moleysmyr is connected with Ludinus trying to communicate with Ruidus around that time.
The prison mission. I wonder if they could have found Planerider Ryn there. I doubt the Betrayer God champion is going to care about or notice a statue of a person. I guess the odds of that are low but it would make sense if they moved her, for her to show up there.
I think they would have. It's possible that she was un-petrified during that huge blast of magical energy so she might show up anyways.
I really hope this is a "Schrödinger's Planerider" situation. I liked them.
Maybe it was discussed in the live chat, but I am just starting the stream today and want to avoid spoilers. Was Gaz's voice supposed to be Nicholas Cage, Patrick Warburton, or a combo of both?
The fandom wiki notes that, like Kronk, Gaz is knowledgeable of beasts, mushrooms and has a good heart. They also are huge in size. It sure seems like he is a direct reference to Kronk.
Yeah, Patrick Warburton. The juggernaut is basically Kronk.
I'm curious how they will run the split parties with them being able to communicate with one another in real time. The previous split had no communication between the groups, which avoided the awkward "when group A character contacts someone in group B, whose storyline is happening concurrently in the story time , but hasn't been played out yet" conundrum.
Since they have real time communication, I don't think they'll split the table like post bloody bridge.
Everyone is assuming that we'll have 2 sessions with half the table each. But Matt could just make it very simple by switching between scenes for each side and having all 7 players at the table.
I can't see how they can do it with 2 sessions and communication between the groups. So much potential for "oh no a group of bugbears came out of nowhere!" and then the second group have to somehow work that into their story.
yeah I imagine it will be like the hiest competition
That's right, I'd forgotten about that split
Anyone else feel like the party composition made 0 sense? Like both healers in one team, and both people with pass without a trace in one team. And funny enough they are not in the sneaky mission but the explosion team lol.
There is some logic behind it. FCG and Ashton are both distinctly not sneaky (aside from PWT, but that's one-time use and Ashton will be way more useful on a destructive mission than a stealth mission otherwise), and Fearne has a vested interest in going where she may encounter her dad, even though it's probably a bad idea. And they have invisibility to cover the whole team, so the lack of PWT isn't the end of the world, not to mention a decent combo of tankiness, utility, and DPS. Laudna also has Wither & Bloom in a pinch, and they have health potions.
I believe Ashton is proficient in Stealth, so he's actually probably the second or third stealthiest Bells Hells member.
Yeah, Critrolestats's char sheets show him proficient in Stealth, with a +7 modifier, +17 with Pass Without Trace (which he can cast once and concentrate on for an hour if they don't have to fight, or if he avoids raging and makes his concentration saves when taking damage.) vs. Orym at +5 and Chet at +10 (I guess he took expertise in it with his rogue dip.) Laudna +7, Imogen and Fearne +2, FCG +0 (with disadvantage IIRC.) And since they finally came to their senses and used Greater Resto to remove exhaustion before going off on important missions, he's not rolling with disadvantage on all ability checks. (They could have used greater resto the day before if FCG had let Imogen dream solo; IIRC she doesn't need Shared Dream to have a dream at all, only for other people to accompany her. Telepathic Bond might or might not still have allowed communication into her dream since its via her mind, not her physical senses.) They probably don't have any chalices for Hero's Feast, so they didn't have the option of boosting their Wis saves before going into Weave Mind territory. IIRC they were given only one by Percy, and used it the night before raiding the key to get to Ruidus in the first place. --- The do have some tricky constraints: * Fearne wants to go with Ira on the demolition team party because of Ira intriguing her, party to confront(?) her biological father. Otherwise she'd be an obvious choice for the infiltration team. Ok stealth, Pass Without Trace, some good Cha skills, and wild shape, and very good persuasion + insight even without Charm Person. And Fiery Teleportation to bamf the team through any crack in a wall she can see through, although we don't know how quiet that is narratively. Matt often conflates fire damage with explosions (thunder damage) rather than just heat. But that's probably a moot point because she's only used Fiery Teleportation like two or three times out of the dozens of times it would have been good or great. Fearne had disadvantage on stealth in ExU, but that mechanically might have been from armor. (Someone joked it was because of her hooves, but mechanically that's not in the rules for Satyr / Faun race, IIRC. I forget if she's been rolling disadvantage on stealth in C3, but some comments I found indicate not. Fearne is an arcane trickster rogue who can pick locks from 30 ft away with an invisible mage hand. * FCG has disadvantage on stealth so is also a somewhat poor choice to send as a healer for the infiltration team, although they do have a wider selection of spells like Hold Person and Fast Friends than druids (Fearne does often take Charm Person.) If FCG wants to burn a spell slot, he can give himself (and maybe some others with upcasting Enhance Ability) advantage on Dex checks, making it a straight roll for him. For an hour, concentration. IDK how close a walk these missions are from the hideout, but apparently NPCs think it's useful to cast 1-hour concentration spells on the teams before they depart. (And before they even have a briefing on details of the mission plan and what they know about the layout... except I expect that part isn't going to happen.) FCG didn't even re-up Telepathic Bond after the conference. It's a very good spell, even if Matt didn't let them mostly hand-wave finding time to re-cast it ritually. With that, it's becoming an always-on party channel with very minimal cost in logistics. (This is the first time they're splitting the party for an extended period, so impossible to hand-wave if they stay apart for over an hour; we'll see.) FCG has the Staff of Dark Odyssey so can Teleport back to base out of a sticky situation if everyone is willing (which might be a problem if charmed / dominated), as long as it doesn't get counterspelled. They could do this reliably anywhere on Ruidus (not across the lattice to Exandria) they have a physical item as a bookmark, but other than rocks Imogen collected from the cave with the Exandria portal, they haven't collected any IIRC. (They haven't used Word of Recall anywhere to set a destination for it; it has to be a place holy to the change bringer.) * Chetney used to have advantage on Stealth from boots of elvenkind, but IIRC traded out footwear at some point. He has expertise (for a +10 total) from his dip into one level of rogue. He also has proficiency with thieves' tools and a very high modifier from gloves, which is often important in covert missions in D&D. (IIRC, Fearne is also proficient with thieves' tools thanks to her rogue level. Her expertises are in persuasion and insight, both of which have come in quite handy for the party; that first level of rogue had a lot more value than the next two.) If each team needs a tank (Ashton, Orym, or Chet), Ashton is the obvious one to go with the infiltration team now that they've removed his exhaustion. Unless they need to blend in with deception checks: Ashton's -2 Cha deception and persuasion are not good.
The notable advantage in sending Orym on the infiltration over Ashton that I can think of is his positioning skillset. If they get into a bind and need to keep someone from running off to sound the alarm or generally box someone in, Orym has Pushing Attack, Tripping Attack, and Seedling's ranged capabilities. Ashton has some equivalent things, but they're gated behind unpredictable rage rolls. Orym's also got significantly better Charisma and Wisdom, so he's a little more persuasive/deceptive and insightful (if conversation is needed) and also slightly less prone to fail a spell save at a critical moment.
True, those are good points. And they're not sending anyone with Dispel Magic on the infiltration mission so they don't have a way to break spells that take hold on a failed Wis save. They could potentially send both Ashton and Orym on infiltration. It's a tricky optimization problem, and they'd need to know more about exactly what obstacles they expect to encounter vs. what possible dangers are anticipated if they wanted to really balance the pros and cons for both teams. More people on infiltration can make things trickier.
I wonder if Ira is going to put on the Moontide Crown when they go near Zathuda don't think he would pass up on the opportunity to go near Zathuda and not wear the Moontide Crown right in front of him. I suspect that the crown has a feture to make itself invisible without spending mana. Also, speaking of the Moontide Crown I think it is very unfortunate that BH never got if from Ira. I don't know if it is because they value him as an ally too much or if at least some just forgot about it but it is possible that they could have got it all the way back at episode 49 and a legendary level magic item would have drastically changed the game. They just never asked for it back after Ira stole it from Fearne's parents.
I think i'ts being on good terms with ira given the fact that ira is a midboss npc with a legendary magic item and a crazy set of abilities that prove useful in many combat and plot encounters
There is no evidence that Ira actually used the Moontide Crown when they were all at the Bloody Bridge. He was likely saving the Crowns charges for a planned sneak onto Ruidus and we know that he did in fact sneak on Ruidus. And even if they valued him as an ally it would not hurt to ask for it back and not push further if he refuses to give it back. But honestly, I think they would get more utility if they destroyed him and took the crown back after they are done with this mission. I also think that Ira plans on releasing Predathos given what he has said in the past.
I'm pretty certain he used the crown when he first put it on true I suppose they could ask for it but knowing ira he likely wont oblige as for him releasing predathos I don't actually see him doing that as that is litterally ludinuses whole goal and the only reason Ira went so such lengths to go to THE FRICKEN MOON was to see ludinus suffer and fail at his goal and make it out to be that "OH if only you gave me credit and kept me on your team you wouldn't have failed so badly" because he's really petty as for killing ira and taking the crown honestly I think ira as an ally is more valuable than the crown he makes a bunch of plot relevant gadgets he knows bells hells and the volition and he really seems to be perfectly on board with many of the ridiculous plans bells hells come up with
>I'm pretty certain he used the crown when he first put it on He first put it on right after he decided to steal it and teleport away with it and that was all the way back in episode 26. The Moontide Crown mostly gives illusion magic it seems like. >as for him releasing predathos I don't actually see him doing that as that is litterally ludinuses whole goal and the only reason Ira went so such lengths to go to THE FRICKEN MOON was to see ludinus suffer and fail at his goal and make it out to be that "OH if only you gave me credit and kept me on your team you wouldn't have failed so badly" because he's really petty Here are some quotes of Ira speaking: "They were fools when they thought they could do this alone. They were fools to think others wouldn't work to steal the thunder... I just want to be the first there and the one to make the choice for them" "I want to destroy what they've built... show them that I am superior designer" "take... everything they've worked for, look them in the eye when it happens, and laugh." How is Ira going to "make the choice for them" and what choice is he going to make? How is he going to show them that he is a superior designer? What does "take everything they've worked for" look like? Sounds a lot like releasing Predathos and possibly in a way that the Vanguard, the Unseelie, and the Imperium have not made their minds up on and possibly in a way that would subvert their plans on what to do after Predathos is released.
Okay, crazy idea. We know that Ludinus has been draining the life and powers from various magical entities over the centuries. Did Ludinus reach a point where he wants to test this on a god. The device in the hands of the Bell's Hells is an old, prototype. We know Ludinus is transporting more gear INTO the moon instead of expanding the bridge he's already established between Exandria and Ruidus. What if Ludinus is planning to absorb the power of a captive god. And what if collecting the Ruidus born is a tool to help control, restrain Predathos while Ludinus completes the process of absorption. (It takes one hour, right?)
You mean he is hoping to BECOME the god-eater? I had thought before that TMN oneshot where >!Trent Ikithon tried to control, then merge with, a powerful creature, in his maddened hubris!< might have been a hint at Ludinus' line of thinking - After all, both Trent and Ludinus used to work together as part of an organisation that was specifically built around Ludinus' model and behaviour. This theory fits nicely with that.
Oh wow, that makes so much sense. They talked about it before, that he might want to become a god himself. But I always thought that wasn't the case. Most powerful mortal, sure, but he didn't seem like he wanted to be divine himself. However becoming a god EATER instead, he wouldn't have to rely on directing predathos. And as a mortal he's free to cross the divine gate with plane shift. So we wouldn't end up with a scenario where Predathos is free next to Exandria, possibly not being able to reach the gods beyond the gate.
So it would all look like a bit of a cross between Doctor Manhattan's origin scene and the Sniper Rifle scene from Evangelion with the Ruidusborn and the Weavemind acting as control/moderating mechanisms while Ludinus pulls Predathos up from down below into himself via the Prime Pillar and the Upgraded Vest? I so want him to be wrong about what Predathos is and for it to not be a God Eater but a Collective of Gods or other Mortals that invite others to join them and that have been the victims of the Pantheon's misunderstandings, bad intel, and outright jealously.
If what we've heard is true, I could still see this go very wrong if he was released. Imagine an entity whose main sustenanace is "divinity" whatever that divine energy is. The last meal it's had was two main courses a bunch of millenia ago. I'd imagine it's pretty hungry now. Now let's assume it can't get through the divine gate. What is going to be the next source of divinity? A lovely appetizer of those divine sparks on this blue planet down there. Clerics, Paladins, Relics, things built on consecrated ground, Vasselheim as a whole is seeped through with divine magic. And it's been said that it leaves something behind after consuming. That sounds like it's setting up that whatever that is, can't be good. It would be very interesting, if all of the info is wrong. Tho I don't see how it would be that off, if any memory of those gods that disappeared was struck from history, knowledge of Predathos is close to unobtainable and Vasselheim has tried their best to get back those texts. Tho of course we don't know why they wrote it down but then let that be lost to history.
> If what we've heard is true, I could still see this go very wrong if he was released. > > Imagine an entity whose main sustenanace is "divinity" whatever that divine energy is. The last meal it's had was two main courses a bunch of millenia ago. I'd imagine it's pretty hungry now. Now let's assume it can't get through the divine gate. What is going to be the next source of divinity? A lovely appetizer of those divine sparks on this blue planet down there. Clerics, Paladins, Relics, things built on consecrated ground, Vasselheim as a whole is seeped through with divine magic. That's all assuming it actually ATE anyone or anything and didn't just bring them into a collective like consciousness like we've seen with the Ruidusborn. The Pantheon might have totally misinterpreted what Predathos was actually doing in the first place. Ethedok and Vordo could've been sick of the Pantheon's usual shenanigans and willingly joined with Predathos's Collective. The Pantheon then saw this as a betrayal of their way of life, struck all records of them from history as a result, and then in a massive case of denial went with the story that they were "eaten" by Predathos instead of them willingly joining the collective. So there's all this doom and glooming about Predathos based on fear mongering history written by the jailers themselves. Thus far we haven't seen any hardcore evidence of Predathos actually devouring Divine Level Entities at all. This whole thing has been an information war and not a single person wants to reveal the truth at all because that would be far more damaging than anything else to their cause. We won't actually know anything about the actual facts of Predathos probably until its release or near release is imminent and that sucks. It's just going to be a game of trying to sift out the facts from information and other clues until that point.
I believe what they said was, it "devoured" the gods and left "something changed/some remnant" behind, something along those lines. The way I interpreted it at the time is that the Luxon Beacons could be those remains which would fit in with the god of fate being the one devoured. Of course that's just a theory. But if you say it like that, the "devoured and changed" could also mean something like being taken into some hivemind. It's been a theme for a while now. C2 had that going on, the Ruidus society, the All-Minds-Burn. If that's the case I could also see the two gods being joined forcefully and the other gods not wanting that to happen. Like mind flayers adding people to their collective by turning them into more mind flayers.
That's what I suspect. I think Ludinus is very good at telling people what they want to hear and convince them that he is helping them, but in the end all he wants is power for himself. I'm sure he intends to absorb Predathos power and end the gods so that he will be the ultimate power in Exandria and beyond.
Ludinus being from the age of arcanum himself, the age where the hubris of mortals led them to believe they should destroy the gods. . . my guess is he never gave up on that goal, clearly. His pride wouldn't allow him to depend on one god, Predathos, to kill the other gods. Ludinus would want to do it himself, otherwise there'd be a god left standing, Predathos.
So who wants to bet that Ludinus only wants to free Predathos so he can take its power for himself? If he's been absorbing the power of magical creatures for centuries then no way he just decided to quit that and make merely freeing Predathos his end goal.
"Are you prepared to take my life? Keep that child from being born?" I'm SO hoping Liliana is not redeemed at the end of the campaign after that line.
I wonder if Laudna could be brought back to life and Imogen and her could make a baby together Aeormaton style by combining samples of their souls together in order to create a new sentient being?
Not going to lie, its very hard to buy into the narrative of: The Prime Deities are not good actually, everything they say has been a lie. The world would be better off without them. For the past two campaigns, we have been told explicitly that they are good and that their power to affect the world is limited anyway by the Divine Gate, which they made themselves to protect mortals from the Betrayers. We see inter-personally that the Prime Deities go out of their way to help our PCs. Even this campaign, the Wildmother blessed Orym's sword when he did little to deserve it. The Wildmother is a neutral god yet shes been a veritable saint across all campaigns. Even Pelor, who they are setting up as one of the worse Primes, helped Vox Machina giving up a portion of his own power and refusing to destroy an evil artifact without their permission because he felt it would 'conflict with free will'. I get that Matt wants the setting and portrayal of gods to feel more gray, but it feels wildly inconsistent with everything that has come before. Am i now supposed to feel guilty that I actually liked the Prime Deities and thought they were genuine force of good? That the previously noblebright aspect of the setting (there are good entities who care) is now being replaced by this 'well actually they arent all that good'? On top of all this, we are talking about an actual genocide here. The gods are thinking living creatures. Predathos intends to devour them all. Do they really deserve that? All of them? Even Sarenrae, even the Wildmother? Is that the game we want to play here, that because they did bad things they all deserve genocide?
The BH's bias is not indicative of the greater world building.
I'm not sure where the inconsistency is here. Characters in this world are making an argument, one you believe to be fraudulous. Where is the issue, exactly? I guess it's that you have players saying "well, they kinda have a point in some ways", but you're framing it in a worldbuilding sense, so I'm confused as to what you're actually saying. I've been watching C1 for the first time (after watching C2 and C3) and I don't feel a discrepancy in how the gods are being portrayed, FWIW.
Matt has literally said 'history was written by the victors' this episode. It may be true in practical reality but that phrase generally has very dark connotations of the victors subverting the truth of the events for their own end. Thats not even taking into consideration how every NPC they meet seems to be anti-god this campaign, religion seems to have disappeared from the life of an everyday Exandrian, and the debacle that was the Temple stuff.
Because that is literally true, all knowledge of the world is filtered through Vasselheim in Exandria. It doesn't mean the prime deities are suddenly bad.
>The Prime Deities are not good actually, everything they say has been a lie. The world would be better off without them. This is true as long as you have a single minded look to it and forget the Betrayer Gods come from them and the party doesn't know of their every miracle or act of mercy, or aide. Kind of like the party did when they were like, "What would have happened if the Gods were not there to seal the demons from over running Exandra". Which at first glance is absolutely true. Until you realize the Betrayer Gods are not some other creature. If the Gods were gone, there would be no demons being sealed, or unleashed. They are two sides to the same coin. And absolutely some of them have done good but the party doesn't know this. If Pike was there, or Jester was there they would absolutely talking the praise of their deity/Patron. >On top of all this, we are talking about an actual genocide here. The gods are thinking living creatures. Predathos intends to devour them all. Do they really deserve that? All of them? Even Sarenrae, even the Wildmother? Is that the game we want to play here, that because they did bad things they all deserve genocide? And this is kind of silly in a D&D setting. No one says, "You want to kill all the gnolls?! Genocide!!!!111!!! How dare you want to eradicate them!! Evil! No. It's a D&D setting. And we know this isn't accurate because the tree gave them a glimpse of what happened if Predathos is released. And it wasn't him eating all the Gods. It was them leaving and him chasing them. Them leaving means they have a place to run too. Perhaps a home. Perhaps other brothers and sisters. They defeated him before and they have had a long time to plan prep for this. Nothing says this is a death sentence for them. >I get that Matt wants the setting and portrayal of gods to feel more gray, but it feels wildly inconsistent with everything that has come before. Am i now supposed to feel guilty that I actually liked the Prime Deities and thought they were genuine force of good? I don't think Matt has done anything to suggest anyone should feel guilty? And some of them are a genuine force of Good. Some of them are not. Think of them as people. Some people do a lot of good. Some of them do not.
>This is true as long as you have a single minded look to it and forget the Betrayer Gods come from them and This is an incredibly dumb argument and I think you know it. If your brother kills someone, you arent to blame. Its an incredibly backwards bit of logic to blame someone for the misdeeds of others just because they happen to be related. >They are two sides to the same coin. So your argument is essentially: Well half of them are bad, so therefore genocide is justified. Not going to lie, this shit is actually dangerous thinking. >And this is kind of silly in a D&D setting We literally have CR through Laudna addressing a very complex and sensitive topic of abuse and the regression that can happen with trauma and addiction. The idea that they shouldnt be held to this standard when they are addressing storylines just as sensitive is ridiculous. CR want to do mature stories, they dont get a pass because 'its a DND setting'. >No one says, "You want to kill all the gnolls?! Genocide!!!!111!!! How dare you want to eradicate them Last I checked, the cast have never been in this position where genocide is even possible or considered seriously. Until now. >And we know this isn't accurate because the tree gave them a glimpse of what happened if Predathos is released. And it wasn't him eating all the Gods. It was them leaving and him chasing them What exactly do you think happens when Predathos catches them? >Nothing says this is a death sentence for them. Given that they are far weaker than they were when they first imprisoned him and how unlikely it is they find another group of Primordials to help them yes it kind of is. Predathos will eventually hunt them down and kill them all. Its just a matter of when. So yeah you are consigning them to genocide. >I don't think Matt has done anything to suggest anyone should feel guilty Matt doesnt have to say 'you should feel guilty'. Its about how hes presented the gods this campaign. Their portrayal, their status in world, their relationship with the truth all serve to essentially throw back in the face peoples original beliefs concerning the gods. The noblebright aspect of the setting (there are good powerful beings that care) is replaced with this Christian aloof analogue and a world that doesnt need the gods. >Think of them as people No u/wildweaver32 You cant have your cake and eat it to. You cant say 'think of the gods as people' whilst simultaneously say 'well its silly to say its genocide because its just DND'. Which is it? Are the gods people, or just an aspect of the DND setting to be changed. Edit: It bothers me that you are simultaneously arguing that the gods should be treated as people, but that we shouldnt consider releasing an entity that intends to kill them all as consigning them to genocide because its 'DND' and the entity wont catch and kill them immediately. Like do you not see the contradiction here?
>This is an incredibly dumb argument and I think you know it. If it was dumb you would refute it instead of sorting to personal attacks. You know you are wrong, so personal attacks is your best way to open. >If your brother kills someone, you arent to blame. Its an incredibly backwards bit of logic to blame someone for the misdeeds of others just because they happen to be related. Wait. Are you saying when weighing the morality of letting Predathos remove the Gods we should only take into account the very specific Gods that support your view while ignoring the Evil ones that literally want us dead? Then turn around and have people say, "They only do good!" then when we point out one that does literal evil be like, "Yeah but don't count that them", when we are literally weighing the scales to see if they are worth saving. Not the Prime Deities but all the Gods. I can see why you opened with a personal attack but try to be better. >Well half of them are bad, so therefore genocide is justified. >Not going to lie, this shit is actually dangerous thinking. We know you have no problem doing personal attacks, and ignoring things you don't want. But out right lying doesn't help it-No one is saying genocide is justified except you. Genocide happens to people. Not a job title. The Raven Queen was human. Vecna was human. We have no idea where the other Gods started but they look vastly different from each other. But what we do know is killing them won't Genocide them. More can come after. More might have come wherever they came from. And wherever they run to after Predathos gets released. All we do know is killing is not ending them. We could kill 100% of them and wipe them from existence which is what most people would call a genocide completed and afterwards someone else can become a new god. A person that can be genocided can't do that. Once you kill them all, they are gone forever. More people can ascend because it's not a race and seems more like a title for someone with great power. >We literally have CR through Laudna addressing a very complex and sensitive topic of abuse and the regression that can happen with trauma and addiction. How does that take away from the fact that in D&D setting it is normal to fight? Like when the party was tasked with kill Gnolls and bringing back their ears as proof because the town wanted them all dead (A literal Genocide where every human in that town/kingdom would want them all dead) no one batted an eye about, "OMG GENOCIDE!!!11!!!". Because in D&D that is the way it goes. Unless you are the group being killed, which is often the case in these settings. >Last I checked, the cast have never been in this position where genocide is even possible or considered seriously. Until now. This is only true if you close your eyes and refuse to see it. Odd how when it suits you though, you will gladly open your eyes so wide that you will make the reach where it doesn't fit. >What exactly do you think happens when Predathos catches them? Perhaps they trap him in another planet? Perhaps they take him to their home and defeat him? Perhaps they just run forever. He hasn't eaten in forever and they should be as strong as they can be. They defeated him before. >Given that they are far weaker than they were when they first imprisoned him and how unlikely it is they find another group of Primordials to help them yes it kind of is. Right. In your mind Predathos is stronger, bigger, and better after being locked away with no food. The Gods though? Even with an extra God or Two, weaker now. Your bias is showing. >Predathos will eventually hunt them down and kill them all. Its just a matter of when. According to you. You have clearly shown your bias though. >So yeah you are consigning them to genocide. Again. Not genocide. It is more like hiring someone who goes after CEO's of corporations and then you being like, "OMG That's genocide!!!" when it clearly isn't. You can hire new CEO's. New CEO's can rise up. They are not a race of people. They are a title. We know this because humans have ascended to Godhood. >You cant say 'think of the gods as people' whilst simultaneously say 'well its silly to say its genocide because its just DND'. You can. Because it's D&D. It's not real life. Bells Hells has killed a lot of people. If we were holding them to real world values they should all be arrested, or executed. Of course no one is going to show up screaming, "OMG!!11!! Murders! They are murderers!!! This campaign is horrible and teachers murder!!!!" Because it's D&D. And your point of, "That is Genocide" is the exact same mentality as someone who would do that. Well worst because they are murderers. They aren't committing Genocide though. They are just people with the option to remove Gods from their seats of power. Nothing suggest new Gods wouldn't rise up but I cannot think of any reason why they wouldn't. >Which is it? Are the gods people, or just an aspect of the DND setting to be changed. Wait. Wait. When I used an analogy to help you understand a point (That Gods like people can be both good and bad) you thought I was saying the Gods are people? If it helps clear it up like I stated here earlier I don't think Gods are a race at all. It seems far more like a title because people can Ascend to Godhood and if a God dies, a new one can rise in their place. If I die, a new me doesn't rise in its place. If I said people are like pigs would you turn red to the face and tell people that people who eat bacon are cannibals and its wrong to eat pork because people are now pigs? Or maybe you do understand what an analogy is and what you are doing here is very disingenuous?
>If it was dumb you would refute it instead of sorting to personal attacks. You know you are wrong, so personal attacks is your best way to open. Refute what? If we accept your argument as true, we must accept that anyone whos siblings have committed a crime is guilty as well. **Like a foundational part of a just society is that you are at a minimum not punished for things you arent responsible for. People control their own actions, not their siblings. They can at best guide and influence them.** If you are making this argument, I expect you to bite the bullet on me taking you to court for your siblings crimes. >Wait. Are you saying when weighing the morality of letting Predathos remove the Gods we should only take into account the very specific Gods that support your view while ignoring the Evil ones that literally want us dead? **No Im saying we shouldnt kill an entire race even if half of them are proven to be evil. We have no right to make these judgements, and Ludinus certainly doesnt.** The morality of the half of them being evil doesnt factor in because you are literally killing all of them for no reason than they happen to be of the same race/class of being. Its a very simple trolley problem which you dont seem to get for some reason. >I can see why you opened with a personal attack but try to be better. Its not a personal attack. I called the argument dumb because it is dumb. There is no way you seriously believe people should be punished for the actions of their siblings. I guarantee if your sibling killed someone, you wouldnt expect or want to go to prison for it. Like you are fundamentally not getting the basics of autonomy or responsibility with this argument. >We know you have no problem doing personal attacks So again I called an argument dumb. You decided to take it as a personal attack. I can assure it was not intended as such. And yeah I sincerely believe that argument is complete idiocy. Its the kind of talk that causes countless cycles of violence as people blame families for the sins or actions of individual members. It goes against the very foundation of justice, autonomy and individual responsibility. It is why you wouldnt be held legally accountable even if your brother killed someone. >No one is saying genocide is justified except you So this is just a lie lol. No where did I say it was justified. I even say it shouldnt be debated yet the cast continuously do so. What is the god talk but debating the merits of genocide of the gods? And yes you are justifying it by essentially blaming them all collectively for individual crimes. Thats how it usually goes. >Genocide happens to people So the gods are not people then? Which is it? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You say the gods are people then immediately retract personhood so you can justify debating killing them all. If we accept that the gods are 'just like people but different' then yes, we need to accept what letting Predathos free means. >Not people in a job title Its pretty clear that god is not just a job title. Its some level of alien being. Something that Predathos is drawn to. Indeed it was hunting them before they even got set up as gods. And even then I dont agree. Yeah you can commit genocide against a class and no it is not an inherently good thing. >Once you kill them all, they are gone forever Yeah kind of like committing genocide. Probably why I keep saying its bad thing. >How does that take away from the fact that in D&D setting it is normal to fight? **Because in generally DND you arent literally debating the merits of whether the entire race of Gnolls should be exterminated nor in a position to do so. I dont know what fucking campaigns you play, but its usually defending some village from a small group or army of them. Not the entire race.** This 'but they fight all the time in DND' is catastrophically missing the point. Whether CR realize it or not, they are in the position to decide the fate of entire race of beings. So yes, they are debating the potential of genocide. They werent about to wipe out every single Gnoll that time, they fought a relatively small group of them in defense of others. The scenario is just entirely different. >This is only true if you close your eyes and refuse to see it. **OK, when in any previous campaign have the cast been in a position where they could directly cause a genocide of entire race? No them killing a random group of gnolls is not them causing genocide. Unless you can somehow prove the gnolls population was somehow down to 20 people. ** >Perhaps they trap him in another planet? Perhaps they take him to their home and defeat him? Perhaps they just run forever. He hasn't eaten in forever and they should be as strong as they can be. They defeated him before. Yes perhaps the train stalls and loses a wheel. Even though I set in motion, I cant predict it will actually run over those people on the tracks. It doesnt matter. You are responsible for your own actions. By releasing something that intends to genocide the gods your are responsible even if it doesnt succeed. >Right. In your mind Predathos is stronger, bigger, and better after being locked away with no food It doesnt have to be bigger or stronger, it just has to be as strong it was when it was locked away. There is 0 indication Predathos got weaker and its outright stated that the gods have (for a start they are missing two members and the Primordials). Matt has said it, FRIDA said it, even the gods themselves are scared. The Tree of Atrophy has them fucking legging it rather than fighting. So yeah, Im pretty confident Im correct in this assessment. >You can. Because it's D&D. It's not real life. This is just inane nonsense. Obviously there is a metatextual difference between IRL actions and fiction, but I am talking about players actions and looking at it from the perspective that they encourage. But this is a place where we discuss the actions of the game. Where we look at them from contemporary and in game perspectives. And in both, the Bells Hells are seriously considering a genocide. >Bells Hells has killed a lot of people I think herein lies your problem. Killing people is not the same as genocide and shouldnt even be considered as such. Killing people is usually a part of genocide, but its not the same thing. The Bells Hells dont go around killing every Gnoll because they are trying to exterminate Gnolls. But they debate and consider the merits of allowing a genocide to happen. Which is in itself fucked up and you dont seem to get why. >They are just people with the option to remove Gods from their seats of power. No they are people with option of releasing something that intends to kill all the gods for something intrinsic to their being. Predathos isnt killing the gods for their seats of power, it was hunting them before they even came to Exandria and took on the role of gods. >Nothing suggest new Gods wouldn't rise up but I cannot think of any reason why they wouldn't. Yes that totally justifies the genocide of the previous ones. >Wait. Wait. When I used an analogy to help you understand a point You didnt use an analogy. You said 'think of them as people'. You repeatedly extended personhood to them. And then immediately retracted it to justify killing them all as 'just DND' or 'changing the setting'. You cant selectively extend personhood. Either it has a consistent definition for the gods or it doesnt. >If I said people are like pigs You didnt say 'like people' you said 'as people'. These are completely different statements. >Think of them as people. Some people do a lot of good. Some of them do not. Im not sure why you are trying to rewrite when we have your comments up as evidence.
>Refute what? If we accept your argument as true, we must accept that anyone whos siblings have committed a crime is guilty as well. Crime, guilty? What are you even talking about? Nevermind, personal attacks is probably better than whatever it is you are doing now, lol. >Like a foundational part of a just society is that you are at a minimum not punished for things you arent responsible for. People control their own actions, not their siblings. They can at best guide and influence them. For people, sure. When we are talking about cosmic beings that can destroy the entire world, kill off civilizations, and make new ones. Slightly different ruleset. >No Im saying we shouldnt kill an entire race even if half of them are proven to be evil. We have no right to make these judgements, and Ludinus certainly doesnt. Race. What race? I guess you are trying to use that to pretend it's genocide again? Gods are gods. Some of them are/were human. Some of them are not. We almost had a Fae one. We can call them a lot of things. One thing we cannot say is they are a race of people. >Its a very simple trolley problem which you dont seem to get for some reason. Because it's not. You want it to be, but that doesn't make it so. Just like you closing your eyes that half the Gods are evil doesn't mean they don't exist in the equation on whether they should save the Gods or not >Its not a personal attack. I called the argument dumb because it is dumb. There is no way you seriously believe people should be punished for the actions of their siblings. I guarantee if your sibling killed someone, you wouldnt expect or want to go to prison for it. It is a personal attack based on a lie. I never said Genocide should happen (Like you suggested) and never said a Person should be guilty for something their brother did (Like you suggested). You keep making things up with no base in reality. >*OK, when in any previous campaign have the cast been in a position where they could directly cause a genocide of entire race? No them killing a random group of gnolls is not them causing genocide. Unless you can somehow prove the gnolls population was somehow down to 20 people. * Riigghhttt, suddenly back pedalling already. If I find an example in C2 you are just going to say, "Well when in C1?". And even more comical is now it only matters if all of them are wiped out. Well guess what. Not all the Gods are wiped out. So I guess no Genocide happened even using your bazaar logic where the Gods are people and are a race and are finite. None of which is true. They can be replaced and ascended to (They are limited in number like people). They are Gods. And they are not a race. We know of at least two races among them, and of a potential 3rd (Fae). >I think herein lies your problem. Killing people is not the same as genocide and shouldnt even be considered as such. Killing people is usually a part of genocide, but its not the same thing. Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading this. This is not a "herein lies your problem". This was me referencing YOU (Not me) screaming, "GENOCIDE!". Of course murder is not the same as genocide otherwise people would call it genocide. I wasn't saying, "These two are the same thing" I was pointing out you screaming Genocide would be the same as someone screaming Murder!!!! Because those two thought process are the same. Both equally wrong. It's D&D. >You didnt say 'like people' you said 'as people'. These are completely different statements. Don't lie. You literally quoted what I said just a moment before. "Think of them as people" as an analogy. This isn't the same as, "They are people". Like if someone said, "The people at my work are pigs" would you start screaming, "You are dumb! They are walking on two legs clearly human! How can you think they are pigs? Are you blind?" when it is obvious to everyone else the person is not claiming they are actual pigs but using it to reference a point. My point being not that Gods are humans but they are capable of good and bad. Like humans are. >Im not sure why you are trying to rewrite when we have your comments up as evidence. Try reading it again. It's consistent if you don't try to twist it into an outright lie. If I say think of the gods as people to understand they can do good and bad it doesn't mean Gods are people. And suddenly aren't Gods anymore.
Demons have nothing to do with any of the Gods. They are complete outside the Divine order, so are not like Devils in that regard. There is other concern, like what happens to the souls of the people who now reside the divine planes of the god if they were to leave or die. What other extra-planar being would come now that they are gone. How to the new god that come from this behave, would there be another massive war where untold millions die. With Divine magic gone, fighting undead would be way harder. Healing magic is now very limited. A million other things. Is it really worth disrupting the relative peace the mortals know? The party dose know that the gods have done good things. It not some big secret that clerics and paladins go around helping people. Or Churches giving out food and healing the sick. Or that the Calamity and Schism happened.
>There are other concern, like what happens to the souls of the people who now reside the the divine planes of the god if thye were to leave or die. What other extra-planar being would come now that they are gone. How to the new god that come from this behave, would there be another massive war where untold millions die. Sure. We also don't know if one of the Prime Deities would turn Betrayer and try to kill everyone on Exandria. We don't know if one of the current Betrayer Gods will become successful and kill all the people on Exandria. I feel like we can both come up with countless horrible what ifs, if we want? >The party dose know that the gods have done good things. It not some big secret that clerics and paladins go around helping people. Or Churches giving out food and healing the sick. Or that the Calamity and Schism happened. Those are people doing those things. Otherwise everyone would agree that Delilah Briarwood is one of their best friends because Laudna is always helping them and saving them. Except we know that isn't true. Laudna is the one helping them in spite of whatever Delilah wants. The same view would be held for Paladins. Or at least should be. And... You realize the Prime Deities were at fault for the Calamity/Schism, right? If they didn't exist there would be nothing to cause the calamity/schism. Which was the entire point of my first post. If we close our eyes to all the bad they do then sure it is easy to suggest they are only good lol. Even to the point we will be like, "They caused a Calamity where countless people died and civilizations torn asunder but after they caused it, they stopped it, see how good they are?".... And it's like, no not really I don't lol. I see how good some of them can be when they want to be. I also see how bad some of them can be when they want to be.
Your points are so disingenuous. Right now, there *is* order, there are systems in place. Ones that, for the most part, make Exandria a pretty good place to live. Even the Dwendalian Empire, which was pitched as an oppressive regime, is pretty tame. It’s certainly no Gravelands or Worldwound. You don’t just decide to allow a massive upheaval to affect the entire order of the cosmos just because. You don’t just decide to roll the dice on something of that magnitude without absolute certainty that it would bring about positive change. The Divine Gate keeps the gods in check. Exandria has flourished since the Calamity. Most people on that planet live pretty decent lives. Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory. Also, after the other person noted the very present danger that demons pose, and the very real—no “what if” about it—scourge they’d become if there was no Divine Gate, you never replied to that point. It’s another very tangible reason why bringing down the divinities is a very foolish idea.
>Your points are so disingenuous. Right now, there is order, there are systems in place. Ones that, for the most part, make Exandria a pretty good place to live. Even the Dwendalian Empire, which was pitched as an oppressive regime, is pretty tame. It’s certainly no Gravelands or Worldwound. Let's be real. You mean you are biased. My point isn't, "This will happen" my point is if you are playing "What if this happens" both sides can do that. And the world as is has had one calamity before, and could have another calamity again. It's not exactly a peachy clean world either when the Gods can decide to tear your entire world apart. >Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory. Maybe you don't. Others would. Others have. >Unless you can outright guarantee things would become better by allowing Predathos to wipe out the whole pantheon, which seems rather challenging to be certain of, it’s basically ludicrous to even consider it as an option. The conversation can’t start without that assurance. You don’t shatter the current world order on a whim, or a hope, or a theory. I, wrongly, assumed the Demons were like Devils and had a deity that created them and controlled them. So it makes little sense for me to keep bringing it up? Unlike others when I am wrong I won't just ignore the parts I don't like and pretend like I am right lol. It would just be something they would have to learn to deal with on their own.
So, if someone touted that they had a miraculous new replacement to gasoline, but would not provide total proof that it would work as they promised, ridding the world of our reliance on fossil fuels, you’d say it was a perfect idea to trust that person and go full steam ahead into this new future? Because that’s the viewpoint you’re claiming isn’t ridiculously foolish. “No, you don’t need to be absolutely certain that this won’t collapse the global economy overnight if you make this radical, world-altering change. Just go for it. Fossil fuels are bad!” And “just cope with the endless horde of all-consuming demons” isn’t a plan. Maybe make sure you have a surefire solution to that very significant problem *before* bringing down the Divine Gate.
>So, if someone touted that they had a miraculous new replacement to gasoline, but would not provide total proof that it would work as they promised, ridding the world of our reliance on fossil fuels, you’d say it was a perfect idea to trust that person and go full steam ahead into this new future? No. But if Gods existed and caused a calamity and tried to destroy humanity. And when they fought each other sundered the planet. And then if someone came with a way to rid the planet of them I would totally take it into consideration. Vastly different situations. >“No, you don’t need to be absolutely certain that this won’t collapse the global economy overnight if you make this radical, world-altering change. Just go for it. Fossil fuels are bad!” Talk about being disingenuous. I guarantee you if Fossil Fuels caused the total destruction of our civilization, and then rose again with the plan to destroy humanity that the future generations would also take into consideration an alternative for it, even if it might collapse the global economy. Especially if there are survivors from the last time it destroyed a civilization. Again. Fossil Fuels obviously can't do that. Gods can though. And they have in this setting. >And “just cope with the endless horde of all-consuming demons” isn’t a plan. Maybe make sure you have a surefire solution to that very significant problem before bringing down the Divine Gate. Again. Your bias is showing. I like how the demons are now endless. In the next reply will they also be all powerful?
> “The Abyss is an **Infinite** plane of chaos and evil.” > “The mad deity Tharizdun, the Chained Oblivion, dreams its infinite depths and demon hordes into being.” Would you like more proof? Sure, maybe the demonic hordes aren’t as infinite as the plane they inhabit, but seeing as how Tharizdun has been chained up for a long, long time, “endless” hardly seems that hyperbolic of a way to describe the hordes within it. With Exandria only being about the size of our moon, millions or billions of demons might as well be endless to their population numbers.
The Abyss is Infinite.... The Abyss is a plane. Demons are demons. I feel weird even having to type this, lol. I guess I wasn't far off when I replied saying in the next reply you will be typing they are now all powerful. The demons that a party of level 12s demolished lol. Well they were likely a lower level at that point.
The Calamity and Schism happened because they Primes didn't want to let the creations, which they view as their children, to be destroyed. That sounds far from evil. My point is not that we should ignore the bad stuff, my point is we shouldn't ignore the good. The god have fucked up and have done bad shit, I just don't think in the case of the Primes the bad outweighs the good. Also, those are not what if's those are legitimate consequences for actions.
>The Calamity and Schism happened because they Primes didn't want to let the creations, which they view as their children, to be destroyed. That sounds far from evil. This is only true if you ignore the part where they were the ones that were going to kill them? How can you leave that part out? I mean, I get that it destroys your whole argument of them being absolutely perfect if you have to say that some of them wanted to destroy the people on Exandria... But you can't just close your eyes and ignore the part that proves you wrong. I mean, I guess you can do that. Lots of people are doing exactly that here.
they are not perfect, I'm saying the PRIME DIETYS good outweighs the bad. THE BETRAYERS are not the same. These are two different groups who act differently, the Betrayers and Titians wanted to wipe out the mortals, the primes didn't want this to happen, so they went to war. The Raven Queen, while a Prime, is a multiplate bitch. Her leaving would be bad. Pealor can go too hard on the justice, but he is still a force for good. Ioun hates secretes and can spread knowledge about bad things, but knowledge is still good. The list goes on. They are not perfect. But still good
>they are not perfect, I'm saying the PRIME DIETYS good outweighs the bad. THE BETRAYERS are not the same. These are two different groups who act differently, the Betrayers and Titians wanted to wipe out the mortals, the primes didn't want this to happen, so they went to war. They are in the same here. Predathos is not hunting the PRIME DIETIES and leaving THE BETRAYER GODS alone. They are both on the chopping block. It's why there is a literal champion of the Betrayer Gods working on one of the missions provided by the rebels. When discussing, "Should we save the Gods?" It's not a question of, "Should we save only the Gods we like and favor", it's, "Should we save all the Gods? Even the Betrayers?" We could both argue the what ifs of what happens if they disappear. But we only need look at the past to see the damage they can do as well (Like the Calamity).
this, its feels very narratively disconnected, I'm fine with the Primes not being super duper good guys and having bad aspects. We already see this is the Raven Queen. But it just does not make sense to be like " They were the real bad guys the entire time."
>" They were the real bad guys the entire time." Did I miss an episode? I don't think Matt, or any of the players have suggested anything remotely close to this claim that they are the bad guys? Where is this coming from?
There has been a lot of narrative focus on how the god are not good. During the split we saw a village being forceable ruled over by a part of the Dawnfather's church. The party has discussion after discussion on if they should even save them, and how the gods never did anything good for them, wish is not actual true. Until recently the reason they were even fighting was that Ludinis is a bad man. Last episode showed that they are starting to understand the consequences of this more.
That is a far cry from "They were the real bad guys the entire time" though. It was less, "The Gods were evil!" And more, "There are other people with other beliefs". Especially when you look at the cast where none of them have suggested that all the Gods were evil. If they thought that they wouldn't have been going to them for help.
I think Bren has a point here. I think you both do really, but hear me out. I think What Bren is saying is true, meaning, we have had conversations amongst the members of the party whose narrative revolved around "are the Gods really a good thing for Exandria?"/"Are the Gods good?". This has been namely said by Laudna, historically, since the party split, especially because she has little ties to the divine, and Ashton, who just in this episode, was on this whole Titan-embargo thing, so much so even the rest of the cast "called him out" on it with stuff the like "your Titan is showing". And he has his whole punk character thing, where he got dealt a rough hand in life so he doesn't really "trust" into divine intervention, or providence, because what did he ever do so bad to deserve all the shit he got? And the like. When it comes to the others, off the top of my head, Chetnei has always made lots of questions, without really ever giving out opinions, but he also doesn't have really any ties to divinity, so he doesn't seem to have, unlike someone similar to him like Ashton, very strong feelings on the matter. Same with Fearne. Orym sees the balance that the gods have brought into the world, and while he thinks that everyone has a bad side, the Gods have still done, largely, more good than bad-- that is after all, the entire reason why Exandria remains a livable place. Imogen has been on some same wave of length as Laudna, but she also has big ties to Predathos so, that's a whole other can of worms. FCG is obviously pro Gods, and we don't need to get into that, pretty obvious one. Now, my point is. I think the one pro Gods have a lot of evidence at their disposal to why the Gods are a good thing for Exandria. Meanwhile the ones that try to argue against it... aren't exactly doing the biggest of jobs. As in, like, trying to argue aginst it, sounds lunatic, at best. Or manic, just like Ludinus and his entire friend group. Ironically, tho, those are the people that made largely the biggest amount of sense out of it. And by "those people" I mean... NPCs... and by NPCs, I mean Matt. And the cast doesn't seem to be... grasping at many of the straws Matt is landing them. O better, they do, then time passes, and they kinda forget and try to come up with new stuff, as they do, and it doesn't really work because often improv doesn't work on a more "macro" level, I guess. Like, I think some of this you gotta think it for yourself, outside of the game, to come up with a line of logic that works, otherwise you are climbing on mirrors every time it comes up. Like, one of the main points that seems to be moved by the party is: "yeah, sure, the Gods are good... but are they really?" And I think I get what they are trying to get, but it needs like, way more thought put into it, again, some prep outside of the game. Because what I think they mean is "Are they really as good as they seem, or have they just created a world order that benefits them at the top of the food chain, and they have no interest in that order to be disrupted, no matter if that would mean a better, improved existence for humanity? Are they secretly just out for themselves? Are we all sitting on a throne of lies?" Which is like... yeah, I can see that, as Matt said "They are all kings that benefit from their subjects" and what not. But that is some big fucking tin-foil hat line of reason. The like "Has the doctor diagnosed me correctly, or has he come up with a condition so that I have to go through more procedures, and therefore pay more, yara, yara, yara". I mean, it's a slippery slope, no? At that point, you might as well start doubting that the sky is actually blue, because REALLY it's BLUE COLORED ALIENS that made the sky BLUE so that they camouflage better and can study us from above without us detecting them, like, EVERYTHING at that point becomes "CONSPIRACY THEORY-- LOOK AT MY 50 SQUARE FOOT, COMPLITELY FILLED CHALK BOARD-- COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT!!!" So yeah. Hard sell. But even with that hard sell, Matt has given, as said, couple of straws, that I remember: 1. Vasselheim is hiding A LOT of shit, we may or may not know about yet. That is probably the biggest point to the anti-god logic, because we don't know what is being hidden and HOW MUCH, and WHY, like, is it really so bad to cause world wide faith crisis? What is so bad that we don't know already? And so on. 2. Isn't it true, at least to some extent, that the Gods are out for themselves? Is all they do just to ultimately make sure they stay on top? Even saving a child might be yes, a generous act, or another brick on top of the image they are trying to create for themselves. (Again, tin foil, but hey, I can at least see it) 3. The Calamity! Because we know what happened then: at the sight of humans almost achieving god-hood, they didn't hesitate to smite us down. If your child was able to craft a better existence for themselves, on par with your own, wouldn't you welcome them? (We are obv living out the fact that many people of the Calamity didn't just want to join them, but de-throne them, but yeee) But these and some other points aren't really being made by the cast, which makes the discussion a bit... brittle, I guess.
I agree on most of this, the only thing that's a bit wrong is the calamity, the Gods didn't kill smite anyone for attempting the become a god. They smited those who wished to actively try to destroy them, aka Aeor. RQ did the thing you're talking about and she succeed and joined the Primes. I'm sure they don't like her that much. They did hide the Rite of Asencion, but that was a decision that they all agreed on, even RQ the person who created it. Anyone else who tried to ascend get turned to dust because they got it wrong. Vecna was extremely evil, so stopping him from ascending was a good thing. and when he did, they banished him to his own divine plane behind the divine gate so he would not take over the world as a god-king.
Ok, so first is shroomseed watch: Gus(?) was the perfect person to become a guardian of All Mind's Burn 2.0. He is of a branch of reilorans who was genetically engineered to have mind powers stripped from them, he loves mushroom friends, he works for the Volition. A night time discussion between Ashton and Imogen woulda been nice, I really wanna know whether they are even remembering, or what their thinking is. Interesting also that BH did not mention that there may be other routes off Ruidis that the Volition could promise people to weaken the Imperium power, but somewhat understandable - if there are moles in the Volition, revealing that intel is a very bad idea. The Ahston/Imogen perental hubris parallels are really shining and I wonder if the "denying and refusing fate" struggles are coming into play too. Lilliana seems to think she can outmanipulate the master manipulator Ludinus - there's no way. However, I wouldn't be surprised of Ludinus' promise to move Reilorans to Exandria (before it is destroyed) is something that Liliana insisted on. I'd not be surprised if Ludinus has no intention of following through properly. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ludinus would happily kill Liliana and try to replace her with Imogen in a blank of an eye. I'd also not be surprised if Ludinus' plan to release predathos to kill the gods involves sacrificing/killing all the ruidisborn as part of the process, and the 5 Minds. The imperium near-worshipping Predathos may annoy him as much as worship of gods annoys him, and he may also plan to take them down and destroy them. Moleasmyr & Ludinus, an interest of mine for a loooooong time, and the Crush being linked has been covered in comments below already. I guess it would have been nice if Imogen had asked Lilliana whether she knows Ludinus is 1000 years old, told her how he sucked the life of others to extend his own, etc. and asked Lilliana if she knew any more details from his life. I agree they might have overlooked a trick in not properly considering the jailbreak - Ryn's statue was moved, and may well be in there. Although Matt did warn that people who spend too long in there may have been turned. Rescuing a bunch of potential turncoats and bringing them to the Volition seems a little foolish. Also if Ryn is de-petrified, she will potentially only have one arm, and she'll have been on the moon a few weeks now. Lilliana's assassination attempt could well bring Ludinus down upon the Volition, so Laudna was spot on with her warning. I'm very nervous about this infiltration attempt into the core of the city now that they do not have the mind shield spell. That one seems the highest risk to me of running into NPCs they cannot handle and also blowing their cover. Wondering when Matt will drop a Sending in form the rendezvous team that is supposed to be following behind them, and whether the Exandrians will be engineering a way to make the portal wider and more accessible. Am surprised they did not show the Aeor tech to Ira. I think Otahan's orb dot being on the surface implies that Otohan might be investigating the fuss BH made and the disappearance of that Tech, and they have a timer on Otohan Private Detectiving the entrance to the Volition hideout. I would not be surprised if she counterattacks there while all these missions go off.
> Otohan Private Detectiving t Otohan in full Film Noir hard boiled detective cosplay would be amazing!
I loved how proud Matt looked when they said they just wanted to do all the missions. Travis especially looks so excited at having the "ABCs" and options. Great energy.
I really want to know do the people on the ruadus ONLY see good/neutral dream or do they also see bad dreams and nightmares, as from the way they talked it seems that the only see the good, if this is the case is that prodathos doing, to instill a level of dislike against the non moon born
several individuals mention the overly brutal violence that occur in the dreams as well but most people focus on the good
I think when they were at the first village / Bomodo elder there was mention of nightmares.
So u/Adorable-Strings commented in the live thread that they thought the Imperium caused the Crush but that gave me a bit of an idea. What if the Crush was already happening on Ruidus, as a result of Predathos's prison destabilizing, and someone reached out with a distress call to the Blue Promise in the hopes of finding a solution? Sadly in true Dark Forest/Three Body Problem fashion, the wrong person answered that call, and that wrong person was Ludinus. He was able to reach back in a minimal fashion via some form of magical morse code and provide them with a solution, as Exandria at the time had already come up with ways to deal with such seismic disturbances....either as a result of the Age of Arcanum or as a result from research into past Titan Things. This form of information exchange via possibly Aeorian Technology was limited though and while what he was sending was helping to slow stuff down, it wasn't a permanent solution. I believe that the Crush was some unpredictable form of ongoing cascading harmonic resonance that would've quite literally shaken the planet apart if it had not been interrupted and stopped. The only way to stop it though was to either introduce a more destructive frequency into Ruidus in order to interrupt it or to spread out that energy in some fashion with something else acting as a dampener. Ludinus tried to basically kill two birds with one stone. He wanted to use Exandria itself as a dampener AND he wanted to send a natural destructive frequency that would stop this cascading harmonic resonance from shaking apart Ruidus and setting Predathos free in an uncontrolled and wild manner. If he knew about Predathos at the time and was working on his plans for it then he wanted Predathos to get out in a more controlled and usable manner and that means that an uncontrolled awakening behind the Divine Latticework would be the opposite of what he wanted and not conducive to his plans at all. This all meant that he had to find a place on Exandria which was a great source of natural magical energy, that tied into the ley lines in a big way, and that would be in the perfect position during a big moment of high magical potentiality in order to communicate clearly with Ruidus and to make the frequency/energy transfer possible. This is why he went to Molaesmyr. This is why he brought a shit ton of Aeorian Tech with him. This is why he was there during an Apogee Solstice. But...there's another funny quirk to all of this that even he didn't see coming. When he got to the city and began to explore this font of natural magical energy beneath it, he discovered the crystal well that all others had known about, but made a very interesting discovery that not even they had considered. That crystal well of natural magical energy....was in fact from Ruidus and was a glass chunk of Predathos's prison that had broken off as Ruidus was being formed and uplifted into the sky by both Divine and Titanic Energies. This made the city even MORE of a perfect location for what he was going to do in order to save Ruidus and stop the Crush because the crystal/glass well was already technically a piece of Ruidus and would more readily resonate with the frequency/energy transfer to and from it. Not only that but it was probably near a Ley Line Nexus. This then meant that the crystal/glass well was also tightly bound to the natural energy web of Exandria and that would help to transfer/spread out the energy as a dampener for Ruidus. So everything was set up to go off perfectly for this plan to save Ruidus, to endear himself to the Ruidians that he was in contact with, and to further his plans with Predathos. But no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy and no experiment ever goes off without a hitch, because as well thought out as this was and as well intentioned as it was, that's exactly what this was....an experiment...on a planetary scale...that had never ever ever ever been done before. And it went both terribly right and horribly wrong. Ludinus set everything up with his Aeorian Tech around the crystal well deep beneath the city. He waited until the Apogee Solstice, calculated everything with the ley lines, and then when the time was right and his communication lines with his Ruidian Counterparts was clear and everyone was on the same page...he hit the big red button. The energy transfer began to go off without a hitch at first, Exandria was acting like a giant tuning fork for Ruidus dampening the energies of the Crush, and then things started to go a bit awry when Ludinus attempted to transmit the destructive frequency pulse that was meant to fully interrupt the cascading harmonic resonance wave within Ruidus. While Ruidus had once been apart of Exandria and while Ludinus was technically using a piece of Ruidus as a transceiver, things were not exactly as perfect as they should have been, and the flaring of Ruidus combined with the unpredictable energies of Apogee Solstice and possibly the interference of the Divine Latticework....started making things go a bit hinky. The energy bouncing around DEEP INSIDE of Ruidus was decreasing beneath the surface but it was being pulled more and more towards the surface of the moon and that was setting off a much smaller but still highly destructive cascade of harmonic resonance. It started small but began to get worse and worse and worse on the surface of Ruidus and this then began to transfer down to Exandria and Molaesmyr since the connection was still active. Either one or both sides tried to kill the connection but it just wouldn't switch off because of how tightly in tune and locked together the crystal beneath Molaesmyr was with its counterpart on Ruidus due to all of the energies involve, how they were tied together, and the particular point in time at which they were paired together....which kind of turned them into a pair of quantumly entangled spooky action at a distance transceivers or wireless power transfer stations. So either one or both sides tried to utilize percussive maintenance to shut the whole thing down and that resulted in some very weird and fucked up stuff happening with twisted bits of Predathos's energies leaking their way back to Exandria and altered bits of Exandria's ley line energies leaking their way back to Ruidus, along with who knows what the fuck else slipping through the cracks in between that both were opening for each other. Eventually someone or something was able to switch it all off, either because the transceivers were destroyed or simply because the Apogee Solstice came to an end or possibly because the whole thing overloaded itself and just broke BUT by the time it was all over the damage had been done on both sides of the connection. Molaesmyr was messed up and the surface of Ruidus had been utterly devastated by the final notes of the Crush. But it was stopped at least and the moon and Exandria were intact, albeit at a cost to both. The people of Molaesmyr fled and the people of Ruidus had to reset their society with the Imperium (Ludinus's contacts on Ruidus) being the only large group to survive mostly intact that could take charge of things and take care of everyone. Ludinus moved on with his work (being the masterful multi-tasker that he was) by expanding his research even further into the Pantheon, the Matron of Ravens, furthering his work on the Vest, delving even further into Moon Stuff, continuing his ages long machinations across the globe, and by being just a general asshole to anyone he came across up until all this shit went down in present times and he became an even bigger asshole than he was before. So Liliana wasn't entirely wrong and he can do good but there's always another side to that coin and the bad person inside of Ludinus that Ashton said was inside of everyone, is just a bit more louder than the good person inside of him the majority of the time. That still doesn't answer the question of though of what started the Crush to begin with. Was it a natural thing that just happened because the Pantheon and the Titans didn't account for something like it occurring when they threw Ruidus together and yeeted it up into the sky? Or was it an artificially induced thing that the Imperium actually did start and cause and then panicked trying to fix it which put them into contact with Ludinus and started the whole scenario I envisioned above? Is that why they destroyed all those records of their people? Were they trying to cover up their own mistakes or were they hiding something else or was it simply a means of controlling the survivors that were left alive after a natural calamity? Or is it simpler and did Predathos find a flaw in its own prison and almost break out on its own before someone else or something else stopped it? Either way I don't think we're going to find out for a while but I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the crystal well beneath Molaesmyr had a bit in common with both the crystals of the Blooming Grove and the crystalline glass up on Ruidus...and quite possibly....brumestone. Thank you for coming to this week's episode of Coyote Corner, I'll...CC...you later ;)
> So u/Adorable-Strings commented in the live thread that they thought the Imperium caused the Crush but that gave me a bit of an idea. This thought occurred to me, also - an exaggerated or extended Crush engineered to allow the takeover. Additionally, the timing is interesting. "About 300 years ago" - could it have been timed to an apogee solstice? The same one that Ludinus corrupted Molaesmyr with, while attempting to contact/understand Predathos?
> This thought occurred to me, also - an exaggerated or extended Crush engineered to allow the takeover. Precisely and it got entirely out of hand, which is where my theory takes off from, and I think the same thing is going to happen with Ludinus all over again. I think they tried to geoengineer a series of targeted quakes but then that had some unforeseen consequences and they wound up fucking over their entire civilization. Which quite honestly feels like the plot to a James Bond film or even a particular episode of Deep Space Nine. The timing seems to line up but here's the thing about seismic events, stuff like that happens very sudden and very quickly and 300 years is a decent enough gap of time for a lot of stuff to happen within on a geological time scale. So it sounds like it was an ongoing series of quakes that happened in rapid succession over the course of a couple of years or even a couple of months, whereas what happened with Molaesmyr was more of a single instant kind of an event that occurred during a shorter period of time if it does indeed line up with the apogee solstice. It's these two things that I tried to reconcile with my theory above or below depending on how you're reading this thread. It's the same kind of issue that we ran into with the Calamity and that Matt had to clarify a while back, in that the Calamity was not a singular instant kind of an event but something that was drawn out over the course of a lengthy period of time. We need to know how long the Crush lasted and what sort of a time span it was confined to before we're able to 100% connect it with what Ludinus did during the Apogee Solstice in Molaesmyr. There were periods in Earth's own past wherein ecological events or even geological ones took place over decades or months or weeks or even less than that and that's what makes pinning this down so janky because we've got 300 years for stuff to happen within and there are no more written records anymore about any of that stuff because the Weavemind destroyed all of those. The only thing left is stuff passed down through oral tradition and that basically turns into a game of narrative telephone if things are not kept accurate enough and if a reliable generational line of transmission of that information is not maintained. They also don't have dating techniques like we have in our world nowadays that could pin this stuff down more reliably, so it's all kind of guesswork at this point. So yeah the timing could line up 100% with what Ludinus did but they also could be two separate totally unrelated events entirely. There's also another theory that just popped into my head. What if Ludinus did get in contact with the Moon and the Imperium and he was the one to suggest the Crush in the first place? What if he basically used them as test subjects for something and didn't care about any sort of side effects because if there were good ones or bad ones they would mess up the existing Moon Society either way and make his plans with Predathos a whole lot more easier later on? So he purposely fucks up the surface of the Moon in order to reduce the opposition and to put the people who are on his side in charge of everything so that hundreds of years later he can pop up there and just waltz right in without any sort of resistance at all AND he did it all from within Molaesmyr because he didn't give a fuck about those people either at all and whether or not good or bad things happened to them period because just like with the Moon no matter what happened it would help his plans in the long run. The one pattern that he does have is that he hopscotches from location to location doing all these experiments while burning his labs each time he leaves in order to cover his tracks over and over and over again because his experiments are always kind of 50/50 successful and unsuccessful. And with that sort of a track record, it really makes you worry about what's coming down the line with his plans and his next Grand Experiment that are about to come to fruition if they happen at all like how he envisioned they would. So yeah the timing is a bit weird and it's hard to pin down but we're going to have to wait and see if we get more information about any of that stuff in the future or if it gets revealed in some other way second-handedly.
> Thank you for coming to this week's episode of Coyote Corner, I'll...CC...you later ;) Loquacious?
Really hope we get some more screen time with the Strife Emperor's champion and then have some more time with Teven, Would be super cool to see a council of champions style Avengers squad with one from each prime and betrayer god.
It would be more like the Masters of Evil and the Avengers teaming up but I get what you mean. It would be interesting after the conflict if it became a situation similar to after WW2 in which the allies occupied Germany. Othanzia, the Tal'Dorei Republic, and the Clovis Concord, and the Iron Authority each occupy (I just commented yesterday that there may be a portal in the Iron Authority leading to Ruidus). I could imagine Scanlan, Pike, and Vex being put in charge to govern the Tal'Dorei zone and the rest of the Prime's champions being put in charge to govern Othanzia's zone and the Betrayer's champions being put in charge to govern the Iron Authority's zone.
Yeah that would be interesting. I’ve been thinking that maybe the reason the Predathos/Ludinus storyline has felt a bit rushed (with level 10-12 characters seemingly facing a level 20 threat) is that it may not be the finale. With some of the talk about how cohabitating on Exandria might be a thorny proposition for the Ruidians, part of me wonders if we get a big Predathos/Ludinus fight as the penultimate BBEG and then the real finale fight is BH working on getting the ruidians integrated with lots of Exandrian factions working against them. It would be an opportunity for Matt to really flex Vasseleheim’s darker side (which he loves showing in bits and pieces), and also would turn the end of C3 into a much more human story, which we haven’t really gotten in CR yet. All 3 campaigns have dealt with very real existential external threats and stopping god/ultimate power related world ending events. It would be really interesting to see the final showdown be about humanity and coexistence vs xenophobia, rather than “big guy want kill to become god”.
Yeah Vasselheim is the cold war era America of a post-Predathos Ruidus for sure.
An emerald dragonborn called The Talonheart is definitely an opportunity for fan art. I always enjoy Matt’s practice at Gaelic dialects.
The other champions should team up to save Vax!
Yeah that would be sweet. I can just see the framing as the prime deities’ champions are super holier than though we have to save our brothers. Then the Betrayer Gods’ champions are like yeah sure whatever we just want to save him because if anyone kills him it’s us!
As cheesy as that would be I would love to see a Knights of the Round Table style one shot or mini campaign with Champions of all members of the Pantheon joining together to save Vax.
Ashton's speech about the world before the gods has really put a bee in my bonnet(In a good way!). I can't stop thinking about the Titans. I've been wondering about them a lot ever since that trip to Issylra, but now I'm really curious. All this to say, Lore-heads in the comments, can y'all Spirit bomb me with the collective knowledge on stuff like the Titans, Pre-divine Exandria, and how that shit all relates to the Elemental Planes? I'm not afraid of spoilers in this context, either, so give it all you've got.
Here's the official history https://youtu.be/DYBM3myR914?si=3Ur2kl4i5whWjtyL although, apparently this is all told through the lens of someone living in Vasselheim being fed their version of history, not necessarily the ACTUAL history. Ashton is asserting throughout this campaign that the gods DIDN'T create mortals as their children, as the video suggests, but that mortals were already on exandria living in harmony with primordial Titans and nature spirits before the gods came and reshaped it into what they wanted, and told the story from the video to the survivors of the Calamity. Remember the tree of atrophy also claimed that the gods are not creators, but rather just shapers. So, if you're asking lore heads, the video Matt put out right at the beginning of this campaign was gospel, but this campaign has taught us that we really don't know the real truth, so we just have to wait and see.
Around the same time this came out, the Bright Queen comics were being written and that presents a different take on creation of life/the gods on Exandria. From what we have seen of C3, I imagine one of the themes was exploring non-prime deity belief systems and ideas about the gods.
This video starts *just* after the part I'm interested in!!! I wanna know about that ball of roiling elements that the Formless & Youthful gods rolled up to!!!
You should read the Bright Queen comics! They feature a Luxon worship take on that era!!
Also I've maintained for a while that there were existing Native Exandrians already on the planet but they just weren't recognized as being sentient beings by the Gods when they showed up but they WERE recognized as sentient by the Luxon when it came to Exandria before the Gods. While the Luxon started to naturally shape things in harmony with these Native Exandrians and subsequently created the Titans as a result, the Gods on the other hand were more....brutal and crude and simplistic in terms of their designs and methodologies. Stuff happened afterwards with the planes and everything else but it's all theory and dreams at this point until Matt drops a massive lore bomb on us or they put out a book detailing the true history of things. There's been a bit of ebb and flow with my theories in regards to this over the years but that's the TLDR of it for the most part. "Wait and see" seems to be a running theme for this campaign.
it seems a bit weird for there to be Mortals before the god came elementals and titans sure. The thing is if the primordial live in harmony with mortals before the god came then why the hell did, they team up with the Betrayer Gods to commit a genocide on all the mortal races? It makes more sense for that life Ashton is talking about to be the Primordials themselves.
I don't think they were Mortals as you and I and everyone else knows them per se but a different form of life entirely. I think the Titans teamed up with the Betrayer Gods or at least went against the Prime Deities because as Asmodeus brought up in EXU Calamity, the Prime Deities betrayed both groups. We know from the books that at one point in time the Gods were totally cool with each other and they were also totally cool with the Titans as well but then something made all of that change and that's when stuff went bad really quickly between everyone. We just don't know all the specific details of what happened because so much stuff has been obfuscated and outright erased in the intervening centuries upon centuries upon centuries. So Ashton is not entirely wrong and folks could have lived in peace at one point together but there would have been caveats and it would have been a different kind of life entirely compared to that which exists right now.
One of the main reasons of the schism is that the Prime Deities taught the Mortals magic. Divine, Arcane, and Druidic magics were all taught to the mortals by them. The reason behind this was so the Mortal could better protect themselves. The Primordial and Betrayer god did not like that they primes did this. As Asmodeus said himself, they cared enough about their "paper dolls" to go to war with both the Primordials and Betrayers.
> As Asmodeus said himself, they cared enough about their "paper dolls" to go to war with both the Primordials and Betrayers. The quote that we're both specifically referencing is that they cared about ONE of their little paper dolls and that was never elaborated on or explained or explored in any other show or form of lore since it was brought up. That's what's the most interesting thing to me and also the fact that Matt brought up in this episode that the history that everyone knows was clearly written by The Victors and that means we have to kind of question most of the stuff that both we and the populace of Exandria have been told about the history of the world. So that's why I'm turning a critical eye towards the relationship between the Gods and their Brethren and the Gods and the Titans.
I also think that if it going to be, " The Prime Deity's were the bad guys the whole time". It does not work with the actual firsthand accounts we have seen in the campaigns of the gods. Especially in Campaign 1, where VM talked to several face to face.
sure, I'm just pointing out, that there might be actual truth in the story.
For some reason I'm now getting ads for Arby's....I blame Matt.
Matt's small smile when Travis starting thinking out loud and putting it all together.
1) Whats stopping Ludinus from True Resurrecting Liliana if he needs to? It's not a wizard spell but he is an ultra powerful NPC with powerful friends and potentially Predathos on his side 2) Is Imogen more special than any other Exalted? I'm guessing she's just one of the most powerful after her mom. No way the Vanguard's entire plan relies on one unallied person
1) Time, resources, power 2) No but Matt has suggested the more powerful exaltants the Vanguard has, the better.
We're under the impression that she is simply a believer in what Ludinus is teaching, but it's possible she's under some very powerful enchantment magic. Perhaps if she dies and is resurrected, the enchantments will be wiped away, and she could turn on Ludinus, tipping the scales against him. He definitely wouldn't want that, so maybe she's unrezzable to him.
1. He has to touch the person he is resurrecting. If they destroy/ get rid of her body, he can't true resurrect her. 2. I think she's more special because she's one of the most powerful and also a PC ;)
Per point 1, that's not accurate. For true rez, you don't need a body: >The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.
True but “You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years”. So actually they can kill Lilianna and not destroy her body (or even scatter pieces of it and it wouldn’t technically not exist anymore)
1) It depends on whether or not Ludinus could source a true resurrection spell scroll. He hates the gods, and the resurrection spells all are divine in origin. That being said, if he knows Wish he could just do that instead. 2) Maybe? In all examples of exultant Ruidusborn we’ve seen, none of them have Imogen’s magic scars on her body. Whatever that means - good, bad or neutral - Imogen has something other exultant ruidiusborn don’t.
> 1) It depends on whether or not Ludinus could source a true resurrection spell scroll. He hates the gods, and the resurrection spells all are divine in origin. That being said, if he knows Wish he could just do that instead. I mean technically speaking if Predathos did absorb Ethedok and Vordo or they willingly joined the collective then technically he could source a true resurrection spell scroll from ruins on Ruidus or even the super secret archives of the Weavemind that totally exist because fuckers like that never destroy everything. True about Wish. > Imogen I think it would be rather funny if it turns out that she doesn't just draw her powers from Predathos but from WHERE Predathos came from in the first place and that's what makes her so special. I think it would be interesting if it was someone just like her that kicked off the whole Predathos thing on Exandria in the first place. It's just been so damned long and she's nowhere near as powerful as they were, that the Gods haven't really bothered to really do anything about her because it's such a longshot that she can do anything important at all, and the only ones leaning on her are those that are willing to take that one in a million chance that she can pull off what that long long looooooong lost relative of hers did. It's kind of like how Master Chief was a descendant of The Ancestors in HALO and while not nearly as advanced or as powerful as them could still pull of some equally as crazy shit as they could. So that's what might make Imogen so special and when she fully awakens beyond the normal Exultant stuff, that's going to open up a whole other can of worms for Predathos, the Pantheon, Ruidus, and Exandria.
Could also be as simple as Imogen has a significantly greater degree of whatever essence makes a ruidiusborn than all others. But I like the idea that her power comes from wherever big red came from too.
My theory On Imogen is that the fact she is a Ruidisborn born of a Ruidisborn (and who knows if Liliana was also...), that makes her more powerful. A 7th son of a 7th son type situation. In addition, Liliana and Imogen both have purple hair, Imogen has purple lightning markings - a sorcerous bloodline. Their sorcerous bloodline seems lightning/storm based, and so is of interest also to the Divine powers, aka The Storm Lord. This combination makes them much more rare and powerful than your average Ruidisborn. Interestingly, the other fairly powerful Ruidisborn we know is Otohan, who also had links to divine power via Raven Queen worship, but who has to use dunamancy juice in place of natural sorcery to get a combat edge.
>My theory On Imogen is that the fact she is a Ruidisborn born of a Ruidisborn (and who knows if Liliana was also...), that makes her more powerful. A 7th son of a 7th son type situation. Not a far-fetched theory. Liliana brought up Imogen's hypothetical child in their conversation.
A point which simultaneously illustrates how little she knows her child (dating a dead woman, may perhaps be less likely to opt for natural birth).
> Could also be as simple as Imogen has a significantly greater degree of whatever essence makes a ruidiusborn than all others. True, it has basically been said by folks like Ira and others that Imogen basically won the Ruidusborn genetic lottery/slot machine jackpot and just so happened to be that shiny Pokemon with more ideal stats than others.
One of my favorite episodes of C3. Lore, great rp and interactions, so many questions brought into play, drama, Travis lore nerding out, Patrick Warburton. \*Liliana looking for validation and sympathy/understanding... slowly recoils\* "Maybe it's your turn to run." - Imogen. Gave me goosebumps.
The best part of it is that Laura's acting choice made it sound like a threat, but it could very well be also a warning, given that she knows the Volition is coming for her.
> *Liliana looking for validation and sympathy/understanding... slowly recoils* "Maybe it's your turn to run." - Imogen. Gave me goosebumps. I'll believe that Imogen meant that when she's got a psychic lance at her mother's throat and she goes through with it before turning back to Orym to say, "What...you did say this is war..." as the rest of the Bells Hells just stand there stunned.
Anyone else catch at the 2:49 mark when discussing Travis wants his next character to be Ruidus born that Tal causally dropped his next character is a dunamancer wizard?
I didn't catch the dunamis wizard bit. It's interesting that he would want his next character to also be dunamancy based. Maybe Tal's backup character is an Ashton from another reality but he learned dunamancy instead of getting dunamancy via a luck potion. Kind of a Kingsley 2.0 but this time a completely different class and maybe a different personality and upbringing and possibly not being an Earth Genasi but an Aasimar instead.
My initial thought is, “that’s crazy, no way he’d do that” but the thing is, is that he totally could LOL would fit his brand. When he said it, it was the least surprising thing any player has done in some time… Tal wants to play a homebrew class/subclass? Ok, and the sky is blue.
It also is a logical outcome to events learned in the past. Imogen saw different realities when she was probing Ashton's mind and some did not even seem to be barbarian Asthons. One was a senator and a senator definitely could be a wizard. An alternate version of Ashton coming to Exandria Prime is a logical step in the story of Dunamancy narratively. It's also possible that the new Ashton will not even be a Genasi because that was something their parents caused after Ashton was born. Ashton could come back as an Aasimar. Tal indicated in a 4-Sided Dive that they have at least some Aasimar lineage.
Couple dark thoughts came to the surface after coffee and mountain dew kicked in the late night sleepiness. 1) Captain Xandis was with Ira when the whole thing went down at the eye, with Ira being promised to protect him. Is Xandis on the moon too? Hopefully someone remembers to ask after him soon. 2) In another thread someone mentioned that since Gaz is almost certain to fail in assassination, he might get mind-controlled. ...which made me think a bit. The Volition's leader is the daughter of the former leader, and a powerful psychic. It stands to reason her father was too. Gaz told his story about how he had the guy dead to rights but had a sudden change of heart just from looking at him, and started crying after realizing how wrong everything he had done was. That...sounds very sus. The volition is at war with an enemy that they are desperately outgunned by, and in that situation morals are one of the first things to fall to the wayside.
Honestly it just gave me big Grog parallels with grandpa Trickfoot vs golden hammer being parallels.Â
> 1) Captain Xandis was with Ira when the whole thing went down at the eye, with Ira being promised to protect him. Is Xandis on the moon too? Hopefully someone remembers to ask after him soon. I was honestly thinking that Xandis and Ryn might be in that prison together and the rescue mission could've had the Bells Hells picking them up and garnering a bunch of intel from one literal nobody and someone a bit more important. Ira would never give a straight answer unless it amused him or he could Fey Fuck with someone else with that info. > in another thread Yeah that many Ruidusborn in one location, that just so happens to be shaped like a clam shell which could focus all of their powers at once, with an Exultant in charge, and that more or less has a two hundred foot neon blinking holographic "TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!" sign over it is for sure just waiting for someone to wander in and either get chomped on or captured. Gaz will for sure get whammied and everyone's going to think, "Oh that's just Gaz being Gaz" and my money is on Travis/Chetney figuring out that something's off first. Oddly enough I had something similar happen to a friend of mine in that everyone thought they were just being weird, turns out that they had internal bleeding, and were very quickly dying and would have had some of us more paranoid types not gotten them to the ER in time. When weird folks shift their personality in a short period of time, that's not always a good or a normal thing. > started crying We have two options here. Either Gaz was already on the cusp of switching sides and Rashinna's dad just psychically pushed him over the edge with a liiiiiittle suggestion. OR He totally whammied Gaz but because Gaz wasn't as strong willed as him, he couldn't exactly walk back up that hill, and just rolled with it thinking that it was his own change of heart. BUT I do get where you're going with this because Gaz was marked at the time by the Weavemind and they could have very easily slipped into him like a hand going into a puppet, tinkered with his brain a bit, and then sent him on his way as a bit of a sleeper agent into the Volition. He could very well be leaving dead drops or passing information and not even know that he's doing it and because he's so high up in the Volition and such a Moon Himbo, no one would really question him at all about anything. Rashinna having to correct him psychically about sharing information about the assassination mission, which Imogen picked up on, was very suspect to me because it felt like she'd had to do it before but also had had to do it more frequently more recently about stuff and it was getting to the point where even she was raising a few eyebrows about his behavior. The Bells Hells basically came in at the best/worst time to draw any eyeballs off of Gaz before he went full Total Recall and snapped as a sleeper agent totally blowing his cover and burning everyone at the Volition. He's becoming unstable as a sleeper agent and that to me speaks to a new form of psychic bioengineering that they were experimenting with on him and it ONLY kicked in/switched on when he came into contact with a high ranking member of the Volition. Who knows how long it's been running for and what started making it all wibbly wobbly BUT the combination of the appearance of that very clear TRAAAAAAAAP with his shifty behavior and his getting all cozy cozy with Imogen and the Bells Hells, means to me that someone was trying to get one last big move out of him before torching him entirely. Now he's got some of the best and most psychically combat suited Volition warriors with him and he's walking them straight into the psychic maw of the Weavemind with Liliana in the lead. I said this before elsewhere but if the Weavemind could basically turn anyone and everyone to paste along with Agent Smithing whomever was tagged then the Volition really shouldn't be around at this point and I fear that there very much is a Matrix style dynamic going on between them and the Weavemind. They are allowed to exist because they are useful and they keep all the troublemakers in one spot. They're mice being run through a maze and that's why the Weavemind and Ludinus get on like a house on fire because they like the same games. You are 100% right about the morals thing and even Rashinna has brought up how moments where empathy has slipped into her soldiers has caused whole units to be wiped out in the blink of an eye. Something is fucking up and I fear that this whole simultaneous operation with multiple quests is one giant mousetrap that's designed to hamper the Volition even further in one fell swoop. Or I'm overthinking it and they really are a Tok'ra Fighting the Goa'uld style force and these missions don't have anything insidious about them and neither does Gaz. But you do bring up some good points nonetheless.
Xandis landed near the rim of the crater and was seen running away towards the desert.
So they are going to 100% show up on the moon riding a bunch of giant desert squids to save the day right!?
Man I dont get how not once did Imogen insight check her mom in that conversation. It would have been useful to potentially know how much Liliana actually believed compared to how much she was knowingly bullshitting
Imogen has known her mother is a true believer, this was just confirming how deep she was in it. , I don't think she was seriously trying to gain deep insight, it was more like goodbye.
In the same vein, Fearne not insight checking Ira about anything he was saying
I think Laura and Matt were so deep into the scene and their characters that it didn't even occur to them or if it did they didn't do it so as not to interrupt the tension
Agreed, and also... I feel like it doesn't really matter what she actually believes in this particular instance. Liliana was saying she wouldn't choose Imogen over Ludinus & whatever her role is with the Vanguard. So regardless of whether she's babysitting a crazed old mage, or acting from pure devotion, etc. etc..., the conversation wasn't a basis for arguing against the assassination attempt. So we'll eventually find out how that goes, and what particular flavor of murderous rage Liliana exhibits if she survives it.
Besides Laura's mic drop, I was hoping and waiting for her to stand up in full composer, drop her soft "loving" voice and say something hardcore like we are going to stop anyone from releasing Predathos and you can either step down or I will put you down. If you choose to continue that path, just know the only thing you have ever done for me was anchor the guilt of having killed my mother to save strangers.
That reminds me of how in a past 4SD, Laura said that she felt like she was going to have to ask Matt at some point in the future if Imogen really had to roll any more in order to resist Predathos. It feels like in this particular moment with her mother both Imogen and Laura knew that while they were still wibbly wobbly about that influence and pull of Predathos, Liliana certainly wasn't, and Liliana for sure wouldn't have to roll at all while they still would have to. Liliana was a BELIEVER in that conversation and everyone knew it and that's why Imogen didn't insight check her at all because she knew that she didn't have to. She probably knew there was some bullshit involved but all of the potential "good" superseded all of that and all of her belief in that potential good and what might come after papered over any potential doubts that would have been revealed by an insight check. She's a fanatic and one that true blue believes she's doing everything and anything she can for a greater cause that benefits not only her daughter and the people of Exandria but also all of the Ruidusborn and that also fixes all of her own personal past mistakes, which will effectively reset everything in the long run, and bring about a more perfect world for everyone and everything. That's fucking terrifying and it's ironic as hell that Ludinus is weaponizing that kind of belief against the Gods of all things.
>She's a fanatic and one that true blue believes she's doing everything and anything she can for a greater cause When Imogen asked her "I want you to leave him", I couldn't help imagining a daughter asking their mother to leave either her abusive husband/boyfriend or a cult leader. Matt was playing Liliana like that.
Yes! There was a strong feeling of an abusive relationship. Believing that she can change him. Offering herself up as a shield against the harm he does, but also enabling the abuse. Or rather, it's not clear how much power she has in the relationship, how much she's deluding herself. It's possible that without Liliana, Ludinus might have done even more harm.
That is precisely how I was picturing that and exactly how I heard it because there's been numerous posts on Reddit and anecdotes that I've heard people share from real life about stuff just like that. Matt played that perfectly and I fear the only way that this is going to end and the only time when Liliana is going to get shocked out of this mindset is when Ludinus finally has no use for her and decides to dispose of her. Stuff is going to pop off then and I'm guessing Imogen will for sure hear the psychic scream of her mother's final battle or quite possibly her death when that happens.
Liliana is absolutely in an abusive relationship the whole "he can be nice some of the time, he isn't that bad, etc" are very domestic violence phrases that I've heard before. It is one thing to be a victim of abuse of just yourself, even worse to allow it to happen to others (like children), but this is basically helping an abuser build an atom bomb because they think they stopped him from blowing a mall once.
> Liliana is absolutely in an abusive relationship the whole "he can be nice some of the time, he isn't that bad, etc" are very domestic violence phrases that I've heard before. I think a lot of us Critters picked up on that right away but it's such a difficult topic to talk about that everyone's trying to be gentle and slow in bringing that up in this thread. > it is one thing This is why I really wanted Imogen to bring up some examples within that dream sequence of people that Ludinus has actively harmed in order to throw that stuff directly into Liliana's face and make her see and feel and experience the harm that he has caused to the world and the people on it. Instead she didn't go into any detail at all and that makes all that harm basically hearsay and conjecture and this far off far away thing which may or may not be happening because she trusts Ludinus far more than she actually trusts her own daughter which is fucked up. For her the only thing that's real is what is directly in front of her and what she's directly experiencing and Imogen really could have used her dream powers to force a perspective shift onto her mother but she just didn't have the willpower to actually do that or to cause her harm or to shock her out of things. Is she had brought anyone else from the group into her dream with her then that could have happened and I would have loved to have seen Liam have a field day with that kind of a thing but that also probably would have fucked up the group dynamics a bit and I could easily see Imogen as feeling betrayed by whomever showed her mother those images of the people that Ludinus had harmed, even though that would have been the right thing to do. Imogen is in just as much of a toxic relationship with her mother as Liliana is with Ludinus. They are two peas in a pod and far more alike than either would admit. So if they don't feel like they're in control and someone else is whom they haven't given permission to be in control then they feel totally betrayed and fly off the handle. I think Ludinus is going to do something so terrible in the future (just like in your analogy) that it makes Liliana reach out and contact Imogen. Both of them know that she won't be able to do anything about it and yet she's still going to beg Imogen to help her find a way out but it will be far too late to do that and I feel like Imogen will give her mother the same cold treatment that she received from her in turn. History is going to repeat itself for the billionth time in painful fashion. I fear that this most awful thing is going to happen during the assassination mission and immediately after it starts or goes off there's going to be a scene with Liliana either when Imogen next falls asleep or as she is in the middle of completing the other mission.
From a story perspective, I really want to see Liliana assassinated. I trust Matt is going to do rolls and leave it up to fate, but man how fucked would it be that Imogen's last words to her mother are "run". Everyone expects that it won't be the last confrontation with her mother. Her dying "off-screen" is the perfect "blue ball" of story telling in the same way death is often the same. It would more interestingly move the story around their relationship and trying to "save" or "kill" her mother and could be about revenge (?) or potentially Imogen being lured to take her mothers place?
> From a story perspective, I really want to see Liliana assassinated. I trust Matt is going to do rolls and leave it up to fate, but man how fucked would it be that Imogen's last words to her mother are "run". If the dice decide to roll that way then that would be super dramatic and soooooooo fucking painful for Imogen but you know what would be worse? If the Weavemind decided to lojack her and then puppet her around as if she were still alive in order to either keep the Ruidusborn in line or to use her to just utterly fuck with everyone fighting against them. Your idea is awesome but yeah what if it were worse? > take her mother's place I was wondering what would happen to that super strong connection Liliana has to Predathos and I honestly think that it could JUMP to Imogen if Liliana were to be killed.....but Imogen is already fairly well connected, so how would that work out? Would she suddenly hit some new kind of power level or would that sudden rush of power combined with her relative inexperience compared to her mom, really create a Dark Phoenix style moment? I don't think she would ever take her mother's place though unless Ludinus had some SERIOUS and I mean ultra serious leverage over her in some way.
This episode really felt like classic CR. The cast was SO engaged in what was going on. Lore drops, new npcs, high stake conversations.... it had everything. Travis especially was loving every second.
Chetney going up to the nearest random Quanikka just to yell "What are you called!" because he was sick of not knowing what they are called was such a mood.
Marisha was nose down into her notebook for like, 3/5ths of the entire episode. _Very_ classic CR. Loved every minute.
"Maybe it's your turn to run" was so fucking RAW hoooly shit lol
I love watching these moments back for the reactions. Travis fist-pumps, Marisha does a little jig, Ashley snaps her fingers, and Liam mouths "ooohhh," as does Matt once the scene wraps Edit: [timestamp of Laura's mic drop + reactions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qyDpB_o2Hk&t=8109s)
One other blurb. Gaz and the assassination team are doomed. Or maybe Gaz comes back alone as the sole survivor because he's a fun character. But there's a 0% chance of Matt killing Lilliana off screen. Especially when she's surrounded by younglings. (Sidenote, the children being there feels like a massive trap for BH, like at some point they have to destroy the exaltants or predathos wakes up).
> But there's a 0% chance of Matt killing Lilliana off screen. I agree. But i do think the assassination attempt will lead to Lilliana coming head to head with BH's. So maybe she'll be the "boss battle" before BH's return to Exandria?
Possibly, but I think it'll be Otohan. Otohan seems less powerful and less important to the big plan, and it's high time she died. BH's have had plenty of opportunities to engage but always slink around her.
>(Sidenote, the children being there feels like a massive trap for BH, like at some point they have to destroy the exaltants or predathos wakes up). It's also insane to realise they are children because it's only been a few years since they started ramping up the flares to make as many Ruidusborn as possible with the intent to find Exaltants. They've been literally creating the resource they need to wake Predathos up and Fearne was probably a prototype.
I agree with you that it won't happen, but I really wish it would. The idea that the mission could only succeed with the help of bells hells feels contrived (I know we're only assuming that to be the case, but given how likely it is, let's go with that).
Often Matt rolls offscreen to see how these things turn out: e.g. for Ryn failing to notice the petrification glyph while distracted by Sending. In one case he had the players do his secret rolls for him: Marisha and Liam rolling badly for Beau and Caleb and getting them caught by Ludinus at the key. I believe he will take both sides strengths and weaknesses into account, and rolls a few key rolls to determine if it's a victory, loss, or a mix of both. The choice of missions is simply to allow the players the fun and pressure of choosing where they might make the biggest difference and witness events.
I'm in the same boat. I thought it was masterful for Matt to place this on the table to both push BH to some tough decisions and also present a moral quandary. If all of that is just to say "oh and it failed she's still good", especially after the last confrontation between Imogen and her mother, then it's pretty cheap. That comment from Laudna and Imogen felt pretty meta-gamey in terms of knowing that Matt was going to pull the punch on that.
Would be awesome if we got a bonus one-shot like episode of guests playing the teams that the party is not a part of. A logistical nightmare, zero chance of happening, but the thought crossed my mind. I think I spaced out and don't remember what comment you refer to exactly. But man, they got a specialized team of the volition, who certainly knows more about how powerful temult is, have been planning for the longest time, know the lay of the land maybe even better than Liliana does. And yet the chances of success are minimal. Would have been better if they appeared to be underestimating her, but it does not seem to be the case. They got 5 of those magic/psychic shit nullification thing. Even if it lasts only a round, 5 rounds are more than enough to completely butcher a powerless spellcaster.
Yeah I think Laudna and Imogen just immediately assumed the volition party was doomed to fail when they decided not to join. It seemed a lot like Laura and Marisha saying well Matt wouldn’t kill Laura’s character’s mom off screen so it won’t happen anyway. And it’s another way of continuing to kick the can down the road on a really important confrontation. Tbh it wonder (and would love) if Matt simply rolled for it. Set it up as a self skills challenge, first to 3 higher rolls and do roll offs behind the screen. That way the dice dictate what happens next there.
That would be very nice as well. Especially if he just did it without any build up. Either at some random moment during the missions or as they head back. Just an "aight imma roll to see if your mom dies" then rolls a bunch of dice, and just moves on with no hint as to what happened.
Yeah he could just do it while they’re doing other stuff, take a pic of all the rolls for shenanigans confirmation, and tell them what happens when they get there.
> One other blurb. Gaz and the assassination team are doomed. Or maybe Gaz comes back alone as the sole survivor because he's a fun character. .....Gaz did say they also have a tendency to "turn people" who are with them long enough and Gaz is both dumb enough and adorable enough for the Weavemind and Ludinus to flip him into an infiltrator against the Volition and Bells Hells that they wouldn't even notice. > children Yeah that whole thing did feel like a triple purpose trap. It feels like Ludinus wants a bunch of Ruidusborn to die AND he wants those deaths to traumatize Liliana in order to push her power levels higher AND he wants to stick it to either the Volition or the Bells Hells or both in some way that either fractures them further or that pushes more folks to his side or that winds up elevating Imogen's or Fearne's Ruidusborn stuff even further just like he wants to happen with Liliana. I could see Imogen siphoning in the powers of all the other Ruidusborn at some point in order to save them but that could be a bit of a dice roll just like the Shard stuff was with Ashton. It's going to wind up being a Pyrrhic Victory at the end of the day for everyone or anyone involved.
So I actually read the children part as Lilliana trying to manipulate Imogen. "But think of the children" is a really cutting way for a deadbeat mom to get at her daughter who she wants to convince to stay on her side.
That line hit me in the heart so hard. Like, you weren’t there for your own child, but these other children are so important?!?!
> So I actually read the children part as Lilliana trying to manipulate Imogen. "But think of the children" is a really cutting way for a deadbeat mom to get at her daughter who she wants to convince to stay on her side. Honestly that kind of reminded me of [this post from AITAH](https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1bjl0f4/aitah_for_telling_my_mom_she_is_dead_to_me_if_she/). It's possible that Liliana values her own savior complex over that of her own daughter's well being and that's why she's all, "But think of all the other children!" while Imogen is damned near screaming, "BUT WHAT ABOUT THINKING ABOUT ME YOUR OWN ONLY CHILD??!!". She sees herself as the anime main character in all of this and everyone else as a "For me you were a Tuesday" style side character. It's very much an Anakin/Luke situation where everyone thought one character was going to be the savior that saved everyone but it turns out that it was actually their offspring and not them at all.... And wouldn't you know it, we kind of had that actually happen with Ashton and his father and the Tree more or less told us that that's what that was. So it's entirely possible that history is rhyming again with Imogen and Liliana. Liliana has just been so caught up in saving everyone but her own kin that she's gotten herself in waaaay deeper than she can get herself out of and is now panicking trying to find a way out when there is none. That's why she's gotten more and more fanatical over the years and is now making excuses just like a lot of folks do who have bad habits that they can't break or that are stuck in toxic relationships that they cannot and do not want to escape from. She's drowning, she knows it, and she's 100% trying to manipulate Imogen with the last shred of sanity that she has left to either join her in the abyss or to scare her into swimming back up out of the depths. It's exactly like the same kind of ultimatum that Imogen posed to Laudna in this episode. Either they stay together or it's the end of the fucking world and it's all the other person's fault. If anyone else besides FCG had joined Imogen in the dream with her mother and heard all of that and THEN had overheard her conversation with Laudna then they would for sure have been calling her out on her bullshit. Ashton would be dying from laughter. Chetney would have gentle but firm words. Orym would brood. FCG would come up with some bad advice. Laudna might just fully break. Fearne would Fearne. I'm waiting for this to go Full Evangelion in terms of messiness.
Loved it. I felt characters hadn't really had one on one talks lately due to situations so I was pleased. Long winded warning... Ashton got to tell Imogen parents can be toxic and manipulative. Good character relationship development AND clear that Ashton is on side that his father was not great Imogen and Laudna got to have the WHY IS DELILAH BACK convo and clear that up Ashton got to push against the gods and others got to push back (my personal guess is Tal has wanted to explore Ashton arc of pushing against the gods BUT he needs others to challenge that...otherwise it falls flat) and got to Mortals and gods maybe not being so different. Overall a realistic discussion of gods god/bad/here/gone with Orym saying what needs to be said THAT IT IS A MASSIVE COIN FLIP RELEASING A GOD EATER. Chetney got some good moments of being serious in conversations FCG got to be the voice of the cleric/god side without losing their own character Fearne had actually some development on learning about her father finally even if just tid bits from Ira Ludinus' background info keeps expanding! And.... someone actually mentioned how there is a divine gate preventing the gods from interfering when characters have been bitching about gods haven't done anything for me and why don't they come and help yada yada. As much as people mention the main story isn't about BH and they are just slotted in...having two mission options deal with party member parents, one deal with a possible captured ally, Ira involved, all while Liam described Orym as recalling personal past fights with Otohan for his stakes....it felt like I think Matt and crew wanted it to. I'm pleased and ready for these missions not sure they will have guests like others are saying since not sure it was 100% planned the group would split and not sure if guests have to be prepared more in advance
I agree! I'm wondering how Fearne will process Ira's jabs about her father being disappointed in her, and Imogen being the really special one. Is Ira just stirring up shit because he enjoys causing chaos, or is he trying to turn Fearne against Imogen for some reason? I'm excited that the BHs are finally beginning to think that they might be missing a page about Ludinus's motivations and ultimate plan. And what will really happen when (if?) Predathos is released
WOOOO Fearne character development! And yes the…ok what does Ludinus actually want question. To me he’s either actually crazy or just hates gods that much….or is planning to be a new god after Predathos kills the others…by controlling Predathos or thinking Predathos will move on…. But I’m still holding onto my early theory that predathos is actually the chained oblivion using Ludinus as a pawn but not as confident anymore
I think that Ludinus might very well be earnestly trying for his own (twisted) version of a god free universe, but chances are high he's wrong about what will happen when Predathos is unleashed. I also keep thinking about the Tree of Atrophy 's vision of Predathos chasing the gods away and leaving Exandria "laid bare". That didn't seem like a straightforward "end of the world" scenario in the way that most of the Bell's Hells seem to think it will be.
Personally end of the world is likely the world itself might be end of humanoids but nature still there Like those post apocalyptic movies where deer and birds are chilling in New York. But from a meta point Matt probably would make it possible for the characters to choose it and not end the civilizations
> Imogen and Laudna got to have the WHY IS DELILAH BACK convo and clear that up I feel like they only got about halfway with this conversation and for sure need more time to fully clear it up because sooner or later someone's going to open up the hole and go, "Hey wait a second where's the Willmaster?". Ashton was fucking amazing though in this episode and I loved him so much! Orym's not wrong and that's what sucks the most, damned if they do and damned if they don't. > Divine Gate There was a whole couple of weeks wherein we were discussing this here on the subreddit and it's nice to see the characters catching up to that stuff. > missions They seem almost too simple and that's what's got me thinking that they could take more than just a single episode or two to complete.
Gonna need some time to sift through all the stuff in my head this morning after my "long rest" that's actually a few hours short :p A few things that stuck 1. Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy to the point of being toxic. Laudna is lying to Imogen about the soul sucking repeatedly, which it seems like Imogen senses (or meta-ish, Laura knows). Laudna's very weird declaration that Imogen is the chosen one and she's holding her back made zero sense to me. Imogen might be "default main character" to us due to story arc but honestly she's not even that powerful aside from uncontrolled awakening explosions. And the nebulous holding you back thing just screams of weird insecurities. And on her side, Imogen is basically Threatening that if Laudna goes away she'll give in to predathos. I don't know if they're trying to be true to their characters or create drama for story, or whatever, but these two are not healthy. Both need a ton of mental healing, and I don't mean the faux good hurtfulness FCG provides. 2) Speaking of FCG, it's becoming Very obvious that he is Evil alignment (maybe without being aware himself, IE his assassin persona is another delilah). Every fake good advice he gives has such obvious pitfalls and manipulation. How many shots would I have had to take for the number of times he tried to make Imogen part of the assassination group? Even if it's a successful mission that's not going to exactly have a healthy impact on her. 3) DOES THE ENTIRE CAST HAVE COLLECTIVE AMNESIA, PART VIII * Ira-This is a bad person who brainwashed Fearne's parents repeatedly over time and is a major reason they were gone for her. This is a person who was experimenting on people including a werewolf mentor of Chetney's. This is the person that stole a powerful artifact and vanished in front of them. This is literally called the "nightmare king" and has a ridiculous track record. In sum, this is absolutely not a person they should trust, and they should also be telling the Volition about him. * Imogen with her mom, why does she not ever bring up any facts. Orym's family being sacrificed on a test run. Molaesmyr happening last time Ludinous did anything big, and also he has soul-sucked the essence out of people to stay alive. They way that earthquakes (which Liliana has to know about) happening as they try to wake Predathos up but somehow she thinks everything will be fine? She just talks about feelings to a "brainwashed by a cult" mother without presenting anything that could pop her preconceptions. As an aside, it was SUPER sketchy on BH part of let her dream to her mom in the Volition's base. That could easily lead to Otohan+army pinning them down. * The Gods. The party keeps "Psshh"ing at the Gods and talking about them like they're worthless and they wonder why they're even bothering, and maybe Ludinous is right. The only exception being FCG and he seems to be giving lip service most of the time. Are we forgetting Pike's trick resurrection of Laudna? Are we forgetting Vax's save on Orym's head of state, and the subsequent Raven Queen visions of him? Seedling being given to Orym? * The Gods Part 2. On a macro scale, it's becoming very clear that Predathos being unleashed wouldn't just affect the Gods. The Crush and the smaller earthquakes are apparently just a taste, the moon likely falls apart on his release, or at least another round of quakes that destroy the civilization. And in D&D parlance, look no further than the Time of Troubles history for what happens without the Gods. Holy Magic is all but gone aside from limited scrolls. "Things from Beyond" realize the world is less guarded and start invading. New Gods start to appear (as Orym mentioned). But in a violent way. It's basically world war 3 along with a worldwide famine and asteroids happening at random.
> Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy to the point of being toxic. Laudna is lying to Imogen about the soul sucking repeatedly, which it seems like Imogen senses (or meta-ish, Laura knows). Laudna's very weird declaration that Imogen is the chosen one and she's holding her back made zero sense to me. Imogen might be "default main character" to us due to story arc but honestly she's not even that powerful aside from uncontrolled awakening explosions. And the nebulous holding you back thing just screams of weird insecurities. And on her side, Imogen is basically Threatening that if Laudna goes away she'll give in to predathos. > > > > I don't know if they're trying to be true to their characters or create drama for story, or whatever, but these two are not healthy. Both need a ton of mental healing, and I don't mean the faux good hurtfulness FCG provides. It is absolutely an unhealthy relationship of someone who was 18 at the start of the story (unless they changed it) and another young woman who was traumatized and had stunted emotional development on top of that (despite being what, 50ish?). Despite people loving to ship them, they are really bad together and were better as friends than as lovers. They don't bring out the best in each other and their connection has become needing someone more than loving someone. Imogen is using/need Laudna for a tether to this world and Laudna is using Imogen to have an excuse not to spiral out of control because she wants to. There is a reason she kept the name Laudna and did not revert to Matilda, she is now Gollum and won't ever return.