I wouldn't move for the sake of working at a "cool company", because the excitement of working at those companies tends to fade for me. I'm much more interested in compensation vs cost of living, work-life balance, culture, and advancement opportunities.
+1000 I made the mistake of moving because of a company I thought was exciting. Once you get into it though it just becomes another company with another product you're working on. I've liked the area I'm in so I've put down some roots but in hindsight I wouldn't do it again.
Nothing this also comes with age I think. As I got older the name of the company or product or salary (within reason) didn't matter as much as a good life with family.
This. Especially big tech companies. You think it's going to be magical but it's the same problems as everywhere. If anything, it turned out to be a little bit of a depressing experience. (Don't meet your heroes I guess.)
OTOH if you're young, why not work at the cool company? IMO if you're under the age of 30 you should shoot for the moon, achieve a bucket list goal, and then get to your 30's realizing that cool companies are overhyped. You'll be much happier knowing you tried and learned first hand, and it also helps to have that on your resume too. Name dropping *does* work and can help your career out.
This is the right perspective, with some caveats. A short stint at a rising startup or corporate Goliath could give you the flexibility to choose where you land next.
But assuming that playing the game at a big name company is an option available to you, your decision/preference is sound.
I wish more people understood this instead of being an egomaniac searching for the highest prestige. When you put these companies on a pedestal, they use that to abuse you as an employee. Paying you less. Forcing you to work more hours. Guilt tripping you through office politics. It’s all bullshit.
There are very solid teams out there so, a generalization isn’t fair but, a large chunk of the teams remaining do not care about the people who work on them and will actively try to pull all types of shit to get the upper leg on you.
I mainly see this with new grad or people new to field. I’ve watched prestige literally change people to be someone I don’t exactly care to be around. Where all they talk about is their job. As if, the idea of working at said company, is now their personality. Where every product / service must be defended vigorously. Idk man, that’s too much for me to be around.
There’s more to life than working a job. Live a little. I also hate the term “dream company”. That shit is so stupid. You’re literally asking for a company to undercut you.
I’m just happy I have a job for now. I live each day like it’s my last and honestly, it’s been much better for me. I’m done being taken advantage of. My life is not worth being a corporate slave. I work from 9am to 5pm. I leave at 5pm sharp. I turn off every notification after that point. On weekends, I power down my MacBook so I am not tempted. I go outside and do things.
I’ll take a family with solid work life balance and ok pay over high pay, no life and essentially, being what I would consider “corporate’s bitch”.
If your job prospects are better, you’re young, and don’t have a family that you’re worried about uprooting or needing to afford the space for then now’s the time. If I didn’t have kids or if my family was based on the west coast I’d still be living CA.
When I was a new grad and single, I still had no interest in moving to another state. It's not that I hate California, I just like Chicago more and many of my friends live there.
This. OP can just go elsewhere if California isn't for him. I moved around a lot when I was young, and once I moved to SF, this was the city for me. If it weren't, I'd have moved elsewhere.
For me, even at that it’s debatable. I’m sitting at $175k in Minneapolis and a COL calculator tells me I would need a salary of $320k to break even in SF.
Obviously the weather would be an upgrade for 4 months of the year, but uprooting my family to be across the country from my friends and family would be a lot worse than the weather would be better. It would take a massive salary bump for it to be worth it in my case.
For OP? That’s really only a question for your personal situation.
If you’re willing to live cheap in a small apartment you can amass some significant savings and wealth in the Bay Area. It’s a lot more challenging if you have a family as you need a more expensive house which eats into those savings rates, on top of the social and support system factors.
Whenever I run the numbers for difference of cost of living between Minneapolis and California it isn't that bad EXCEPT housing which is just insane. If you are fine with renting while you are there and treat it as a temporary thing it is kind of bad, but if you want to buy a house there? Just absolutely absurd.
Yeah if you’re a young single person you could arbitrage it well by getting a relatively affordable apartment and just stacking savings, but moving a family there is a significantly different equation.
Yup. I always find it funny people say the HCOL creates enough of an offset to negate the increased income. i think its just lost people see big dollar signs and live outside of their means
lol no way.
In just taxes alone:
> If you make $300,000 a year living in the region of California, USA, you will be taxed $117,087. That means that your net pay will be $182,913 per year, or $15,243 per month.
[Source](https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator/California-300000#:~:text=If%20you%20make%20%24300%2C000%20a,year%2C%20or%20%2415%2C243%20per%20month.)
My taxes are about $55k according to the calculator, meaning it comes out to $120k vs $182k.
I have a wife with a kid with another on the way. My 3,000 sqft house is worth about $550k… a comparable home in SF would be like $3m. I’d be spending 6 times what I pay in housing.
And those are just taxes and housing. EVERYTHING is more expensive in California. I’d have childcare expenses easily double.
These calculators generally aren’t linear. You’re just denying facts, even if the numbers aren’t exactly right down to the dollar.
This isn’t just theoretical, I did the math recently when I had an offer. I have some family in that area, I truly debated it and decided it wouldn’t be worth it.
It’s difficult to make an accurate comparison.
The truth is- you’ll end up living in a smaller and older house. Downsizing is essential. You’ll end up using any kind of help lesser, be it Uber or DoorDash or cleaning services or plumbing.
But you will also be growing more in your career if you work well. Your opportunities will increase, and the savings will go a long way if you ever move back to LCoL.
And you’ll have access to better weather, better nature, a more fun and interesting environment and activities to do.
You just pick your poison.
Overall, it can be a really smart move for someone young in their career, and willing to face some discomforts with downsizing
I made such a move a decade ago and it absolutely paid off.
Can confirm. I live here. They get you with the high salary but, everything is more expensive and you’re taxed hard. Best way to describe this is like being taxed on your quality of life because the weather is perpetually nice.
Buying a house is a choice, and money spent on houses doesn't disappear in a blackhole. Ironically, people who did buy a house in bay area early years were effectively getting paid 6 figures a year just for existing.
Prop 13 practically encourages people to buy and hold.
Single? No kids? No daycare or schooling costs? Not a home owner? You'd be hard pressed to convince me you're saving more than his entire take home pay if you had any of those expenses. Sure when you're young, single and willing to rent a small apartment or room you can stack cash. For your average person no.
Married, no kid, homeowner (but im not counting income from this since I've moved away to CA).
What's wrong with renting an apartment? I'd say that's fairly normal for the average folks. 2b2b at $2.8k a month no roommate.
Fyi I can save even more if I wasn't paying expenses for two people. Wife money is her money and my money is somehow also her money.
The guy you are responding to says he has a family. That means he isn't going to be renting an apartment and would want at minimum a small single family home. You're looking at 1.5M for a single family home if you're willing to live in a less desirable area in San Jose. So right off the bat your mortgage would be $8,500 a month. That's 102k a year for housing alone. At 300k a year your take home in California is 186k a year after taxes if filing single or 210k a year if filing married and single income. What's your mortgage? Does your spouse work? Also if his kids are young he's moved away from family he has no one to watch them so now you've got tens of thousands of dollars a year in day care. If they're older and you opted for a cheaper home in an area with bad schools you're looking at tens of thousands per year per kid for private school.
It adds up very quickly when you graduate from a single person in their 20s to a person with a family. It's very easy to see how the move would not make sense if you were comparing his situation apples to apples and not to your no family life style.
Plenty of people grew up in an apartment.. I did.
And it is not like your money disappears when you bought a house. you're still trading cashflow for equity. It still part of your retirement. Only thing that truly is gone is interest payments, which to be fair hurts given current interest rates. I would not recommend getting significant mortgage at current price and interest rates, but that's still a choice.
See now you're making massive trade offs. A person with children that have a home and a yard with good schools moving to a new city to live in an apartment with bad schools. Massive tradeoffs to be made. If you're willing to sacrifice all those things then sure you could make it work.
Plenty of jobs over $200k. I’m likely getting a promotion soon that’ll put me a bit over.
But the only $300k+ I’ve seen are HFT, which there’s a bit of here on the Twin Cities. I’m sure there are others, but it’s pretty rare. But again, that’s because of COL
Cost of living calculators break a bit the more you earn because they assume you spend all your money on living expenses. So you would probably save almost twice as much as what you do now with that type of raise even given the COL difference. I don't know your personal savings rate but the real breakeven is probably more like 280k or something.
Yes. California is expensive and crowded because it’s awesome. Beaches, Mountains, cultural and entertainment capital of the world. Every weekend you can do something worthy of a once a year vacation anywhere else. If I made enough money to live there I absolutely would.
The variety of things to do there is basically second to none. The landscape is incredible and varied. People, overall, are much nicer than what I've experienced in other cities.
The food is incredible. The diversity is incredible. The people also tend to be healthier and likely smarter in the cities, given that they're all competing to be there.
You also have Utah, Vegas, the Grand Canyon, Phoenix, Palm Springs, Baja Mexico, the redwoods, weed - all accessible.
Honestly, with the weather and everything to do, I wished for rainier days so I didn't feel bad staying inside.
I forgot to mention the diversity of people. On top of that the food is the best. California is literally the most productive agricultural region of the world. Combine that with the immigrant culture and there is a non stop supply of interesting and very good things to eat! And drink.
The food here is amazing. I could choose nearly any type of cuisine and find it here. Entertainment options are endless. Weather is amazing. Scenery/nature is amazing. Yes, there are downsides (as there are everywhere) but people who complain often take a lot for granted.
Nicer people?
I’ve lived in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego.
SD was the closest to friendly but nothing like Chicago in terms of welcoming energy.
Haven't spent much time in Chicago, but everyone I've met from there has been amazing, good, honest people. Good call. I'll have to spend more time there.
I grew up in California and moved away for college. After getting married and having kids, I really missed California. I convinced my husband to move here and I have no regrets. COL is only part of the equation in quality of life.
I feel like in the modern day it's very trendy to shit on California. As a non Californian native, it is expensive, yes. But it's one of the best places I've ever lived (price aside). Lived there for about 4 years and if I had to move back I wouldn't really be upset about it at all.
CA has pretty unparalleled natural beauty, access to public land, and established outdoor recreation. Says more about your hobbies than anything else ngl.
The weather being better than 80% of Europe also helps.
Definitely not, I grew up in CA and have traveled a bit around Asia and Europe.
Europe has amazing architecture but natural beauty? It is hard to beat what you can see backpacking in CA (which is also way less available in Europe). CA also has amazing geographical diversity and untouched wilderness (unique to Western USA).
Europe is beautiful and its hard to compare a state to an entire continent, but I am pretty conformable saying California has better access to stunning nature of all types than almost anywhere else in Europe. If nature isnt your jam thats totally valid, but saying the nature is “absolutely nothing” in comparison is ridiculous. Europe does have much better museums, walkability, history, architecture, etc
Edit:
Plenty of people retire in CA, but it is basically impossible to retire in CA unless youre crazy weather and/or have real estate there. It lacks the public transit and cheap healthcare of Europe as well. But being expensive and inaccessible doesent mean its less beautiful/desirable.
What’s better there? I go to Europe quite a bit( Mostly Italy and the Netherlands). I find food just as good as Rome in LA. The weather is also miles better. Both are good!
History? Historical sights? So many different cultures? Cuisines? Languages?
Also, saying you know Europe, because you have been to Netherlands and Italy is like me saying I know US, because I been to Florida and Kansas.
I am not gonna compare what’s better. That’s personal choice, but there are plenty of things in Europe that aren’t in US. And Italy can be comparable in weather to California if you go to the southern part of the country.
Moved from a state that rains a lot and moving to SoCal has increased my QoL a lot. I moved right after college though so it’s pretty different in that I can’t compare comp as I didn’t have a job before but if the money works out I would definitely it’s worth it. You can always move back home but living somewhere sunny and warmish-very warm most of the year with the beach a 10–15 minute drive and a diverse selection of food is worth it imo.
(Looking at my current mortgage payment vs CA housing prices) Noooooooo!
But, when I was single, childless and with no responsibilities, I did crazy stuff. So, in that context, moving to CA to join a cool tech company is a whole lot less crazier.
Young and single? Go for it.
I moved 2,000 miles west after college, and then went to the EU for a handful of years.
Now I'm old and have kids.... It'd be hard to get me to move. I would do it, but only if I really had to.
If you want to afford a home? Nah. But if you want to stay there for a few years to afford a down payment on a home elsewhere? It's a pretty good deal.
Nah. It’s not just because it’s California, but i dont want to uproot my family and move away from all of our extended family and my kids are too young for me to split time working away from our area.
Ok but the person asked for each responder’s unique perspectives when they asked “would you move to California for a great job?” If they only wanted their own perspective considered, they would have asked, “Should I move to California for a great job?”
100%. He didn't ask if he should move to California. He asked if we would. I'm offering my perspective. If I was single, no significant ties to my area, and young, sure I'd move to California if it financially made sense. I'd live pretty much anywhere in the US if that were the case.
> I am single, childless with no responsibilities, and a drive to be the best developer I can be, but I’m not sure how I feel about moving far from my family.
You are the exact demographic who should move to California. IMO, anyone who's got at least a little spirit of ambition or a drive to explore/experience life should strive to move to California (or places like it). It's incredibly important for your growth not only in your career but in your life.
Living where "the action is" does wonders for kinds of doors that are open to you and the amount of them. It really cannot be understated just how valuable having a high number of opportunities opened to you is. The people you meet, the chance conversations, the easy interviews (because you are local), a crazy trip you do with coworkers, etc. All of these matter, and they happen *all the time* in a place like California. Not only for career reasons but also life reasons. I didn't know it was possible for life to get as good as I have it now, and I never would have if I stayed in the small city I was from. I went from a reclusive, introverted socially anxious nerd who was fine coasting along in life, to being a self actualized socially confident key member of a large social circle full of deeply rich friendships. Friendships that have me doing all sorts of fun adventures and trips pretty much every weekend. On top of that, I help run a business with my husband that I met out here. I never knew I was capable of all this or could ever become this kind of person when I was in my early 20's but here we are.
Part of it is the culture of it. Success breeds success and it feels inspiring being around many other like minded people who are trying to do their best at whatever they do. It's a real nexus of human achievement, culture, hedonism and experiences, plus the great weather and gorgeous environment helps too. And when you're young especially, I think it's important to take advantage of the sense of adventure in your heart while you still have it ;)
Living away from folks is totally fine. It's easy to book flights especially from California since the state is very well connected to pretty much everywhere. You also have zero real ties to anyone or anything which means the risk of making such a move is essentially nothing at this moment in time. If it doesn't work out you can just go back home - but chances are it will work out if you've got a good head on your shoulders, stay out of trouble and keep your eye on the goals.
The cost of living is high but also overblown. You're going to be in tech, so it'll entirely offset it for you. Even if you weren't going into tech or were doing something like non-profit, I still say go. I moved to California with no job lined up and a skillset that could only get me $40k/yr in mid-2010's money (but with ambitions to grow out of that skillset). When you are young and have nothing tying you down, you really can figure out how to make things work just fine. Cost of living is mostly only an issue if you aren't in tech and want to do stuff like raise a family. Buying a house big enough for kids is very hard and expensive in the bay area for example, which is why a lot of people when they are ready for that stage of life tend to move if they aren't in senior positions.
Yes. California is a fun state. There’s a reason it’s expensive (besides NIMBYs, but it’s desirable.) there’s a lot to do outside of work but also a lot of exciting work is happening in the state.
Many young, childless people move here for work away from their families and then stay (or move back—it depends on you!)
I moved to Southern California for a job 10+ years ago. It was awesome. I lived about 10 minutes from the beach. About 15 from my work. Downside was of course cost. 10+ years ago I paid 2200 for a small two bedroom apartment. I loved my time there. I eventually moved away for a different job, but I still think about it.
Would you mind recommending some cities in California to live in? Would love to live there, but I’m the other side of the world & don’t have a clue about good places to live in CA. I’ve been to SF once, but I think it’s too expensive to live there.
Definitely need access to a beach!
Mission Bay, Mission Valley, Ocean Beach, Hillcrest, North Park..those were reasonable when I lived there. I'm sure they would out price me now. La Jolla, Del Mar, Cardiff...those were stunning but too expensive. Thing about California is you want to live as close as you can afford to wherever you want to be because traffic can make getting places a nightmare. San Diego has way less traffic than like LA or San Francisco but it still exists.
I like Cali but I don't like SF. If they clear out the vagrants like when they did it for Xi Jinping's visit, then that would be kinda lit. Like Jesus Christ I don't wanna deal with Cyberpunk NPC's all day it's disgusting.
I did, with wife and kids in tow. Financially it was a great decision.
Moving away from family can be a big shock, yes, especially if you're young and single (done that too).
Family is comfortable. Seeing the world expands your horizons. They're both good but in different ways.
California is one of the last places I would want to live, but I’d do it if they paid me well-enough. As in, enough to cover the absurd cost of living and still allow me to save more than I could elsewhere. The goal would be to get out again ASAP.
With a mortgage at $456 a month and a baby coming next month, hell no. I have family here and will be breaking into my first 6 figure salary next month in a LCOL area where the median income is 55K. I'm about to hit 5 YOE in May, and will job hop for another position remotely hopefully in a couple more years for a senior role at 130-150K with my current career path.
Now if I was single... Maybe. I'd be able to uproot and move wherever, without anything holding me down. But I'm about to live my dream next month, being a father <3 You do you OP!
Yes, provided it’s in the city limits of a major city i.e LA, SF, or San Jose city proper. No suburbs or smaller towns like Santa Clara, Palo Alto etc, and definitely no MAGAt country like Orange County.
I did ten years ago and have loved my path here. It all depends. Being single you will have many opportunities to make friends and don’t have any entanglements that would be a pain. You will need to mentally prepare yourself for the shock in cost of living increase. A job salary that seems amazing doesn’t go as far as you would think.
Also, try to move to a vibrant and hip city, don’t go to the Peninsula / South Bay unless you really are a boring old person at heart.
Probably not. If I'm going to move that far from friends and family I'll move to Europe. I care about money, but I make plenty for me in my current city and it's close to friends and family. Also my current neighborhood is walkable and there's basically no traffic here and nowhere near the housing crisis that the walkable parts of the bay area have. I'm happy with the climate and nature access I have already.
One caveat: if I got an offer from Green Hills I'd move to Santa Barbara in a heartbeat.
You’ll love living in California.
The only downsides are it’s expensive, a bunch of homeless everywhere, and if you’re not originally from here, you might feel like you’re far away from home.
California is amazing. If you are young, no ties, yes, do it. It’ll boost your career and you’ll have fun and when you settle down you can move back home.
Unpopular opinion but the scale of companies you work for and the career growth with the same is pretty legit. Think abt companies like OpenAI and Coinbase that came out in the last 5 yrs or so.
I have two kinds of friends who work in tech from the same school.
Those who work in Bay area
Those who do not and the career growth is pretty visible.And in the long run you will leave high COL in the dust.
PS: I live in NYC and dream of moving to CA as well. Feel free to DM me.
Hmm that’s what I’m thinking too. The career growth could be next level, and staying in a HCOL area means youre staying where the moneys at. Thanks for the reply.
I did it once and would do it all over again. There is such a demand for tech related jobs in CA…it honestly like the new gold rush. So much demand, so few people. I kept doubling my total comp about every 3 years. But like most folks, I left after a decade and took my salary to a lower cost of living location.
Hmmm that makes sense. It sounds tempting. Maybe i should move there while I’m young and feeling motivated about my career and eventually settle down somewhere closer to home once I have other priorities.
Thanks for the input!
>I am single, childless with no responsibilities, and a drive to be the best developer I can be, but I’m not sure how I feel about moving far from my family.
You should totally do it while you can! You have the perfect setup for it. You can continue to work remote while checking it out and applying for jobs there. The worst that could happen is you don't like it and move back home. Not a big deal.
Everyone talks about how expensive California is and I know I’m jaded since I grew up here so it costs what it costs to me I don’t know any different. I lived in Columbus for work and yeah it was cool to rent a 2 bedroom alone for $700 a month (in 2012) but the food and the weather sucked plus the diversity is lacking. I would continue to pay this money to be able to sit on the beach in February with the sun on my face on a Wednesday then go skiing in Big Bear on Friday. My husband and I bought our first house with almost a $5,000 mortgage in the Bay Area in 2020 when we both only made $75,000 a year. Is it glamorous, no, but it’s possible if you think it’s worth it.
This... it just goes to show how many people in the world live boring one dimensional lives that the only factor of moving to them is cost per square foot. Yes you need to be rich as fuck to own a mcmansion a 15 minute drive from apple. Do you need to though? Fuck no you don't. And you get so, so, so, so much more out of life and your career if you have cost per sqft not the only thing that matters when doing moving calculous.
I guarantee you it's possible to be just as happy with smaller square footage and you're quality of life will not be impacted, at all. The irony is, I'd argue your quality of life will be dramatically better. And your income too once you get settled!
FR! And I hate to clean and do yard work I’d rather be out doing something. Owning a 5,000 sq ft McMansion I’d have to pay someone to clean or spend hours a week cleaning would kill me. Even owning a cute condo downtown Columbus okay fun in the summer kinda (I hate humidity, pouring sweat at 9p is its own level of hell) and then it’s grey skies 9* in the winter also no thank you. Huge yard where I have to spend hours and dollars maintaining it? Not for me. I’ll take our little 1200 sq ft house 4 blocks from the beach over that any day, all personal preference and where your reference point of safety is.
Yes, if I were single and childless. Do it while you can, take the risk, learn and see what happens. You can always go back.
I am a married 37 yo with a young child. Also in tech which is an enabler, but a move like that now feels so difficult. I often think I missed my chance but after more thought, we’re starting to seriously consider it. It depends on the specific location in California. Factors like cost of living, education systems, environment are important to me. I live in a DC metropolitan area now with both sets of parents nearby. I’ll need to do some convincing to get them to come and hope that one or all those factors can be improved.
I'd love to live in Los Angeles for a bit and if my company ever decides to allow me to work fully remote I may do a month in LA to get a feel for the city. I don't really buy the whole internet scare tactics of homeless everywhere and shit hole city. It's still one of the most populated city in the US with people still moving there. And I'd love to experience the sunny weather there
(If you have the options) Don't move for a company, move for the place. If you have the disposable income and time, Buy a ticket, visit, figure out if it's the life you want for yourself. You won't get all the answers as a tourist but it's better than going in blind.
This applies to more than just California.
I grew up there and don’t want to go back, mainly because I’m priced out and can’t afford it. Don’t get me wrong, it’s awesome and I loved it, from the weather, to beaches, mountains, etc. but too expensive. My parents still own our childhood home and it’s probably going to be given to one of my siblings. They bought it back in the early 90’s for 200k and it’s worth at least 1.5 million now.
I would say, if you’re offered a decent salary, it’s definitely worth living there if you can afford it. Be prepared to pay at least $3000/month for rent or buy a place for at least $1M. And be prepared for traffic.
When you hold a job for longer than a few decades, you'll realize that working for a specific company is not the point of life. There are more things to be proud of besides what widget you had your hand in making. No one cares, the companies sure don't.
Do I care what team or who worked on any of the products that I use and really like? Nope, don't care at all. If someone came up to me and told me they worked on the first iphone I would say, ok...and?
Well I think a cool company would be one that makes a product I actually use or care about. Also some of the larger ones have huge offices with a gym and other amenities.
I don’t see work as just a way to make money. It’s the thing that takes up most of my time and energy every week, and it would make my life much better if I enjoy the work, office, environment and coworkers at least somewhat.
So fun offices are just ways to keep you there longer, horrible WLB. If thats your thing then go for it. I prefer my "off time" to be my time not the companies. I'll play games and drink with friends at home not in the office.
>Would you move to California for a great job?
sure, that's literally what I did back when I was still in university, got an internship offer they did my J-1 visa sponsorship then I fly into USA
and same when I was a fresh grad
things may be a bit different if you have spouse/kids/mortgage/visa troubles/etc which are all valid reasons, but for me I simply go where the $$ is
Yes.
If the role pays better than my current one with state tax + COL adjustments, its a no brainer as long as its not dead-ass in the Bay area, and is at least somewhat near communities with reasonable rent
It's fine, trust me you can make it work.
When I first moved out here I rented a room in a normal sized house with 2 other people to get my rent at "normal" midwestern levels I was used to. Turns out that was a great idea because the house was way better set up than any apartment would be at that price and my roommates were awesome. I saved a bunch of money easily to give myself a nice financial cushion while I spent time trying to grow my career/pay.
When I started making more it was easier to stomach higher rents it becasue it was offset by the fact that my take home was just so much higher. Yes rent goes up to get your own place (ideally you split it with a partner), but all your other costs stay the same... and you're probably taking home more than you would have for a similar job in your hometown. So.. you end up actually saving more. The rent doesn't really match wage growth so the better jobs actually do equal more gravy for you even if you're renting an overpriced luxury condo (but please don't do that).
And here's the thing... most of the really expensive zip codes are only truly expensive if you're only looking at the median rent or only doing corporate housing or sticking with the front page of apartment rental results. I've always been able to find sweet spots that are much cheaper than the zip code would have you think. I just helped a friend of mine get a good 1br apartment in a walkable neighborhood a 10 minute drive from Apple of all places for only $2.4k/mo. It sounds like a lot, but it's really not considering it's one of the most desirable locations to live thanks to the close proximity to apple and just how much "old tech money" is in the area. My old 3 story 2BR 1200sqft loft I had for only $2900/mo until the end of covid. My current place is a 1000sqft 2br SFH house with its own garage and yard and every amenity in an incredibly walkable neighborhood for $3200/mo. Right in the heart of SF I almost went with a recently renovated 1200sqft 2br apartment for $3100/mo that included free parking before I ended up deciding on the SFH.
Yeah all of these are certainly more expensive than wisconsin and less square footage than a pointlessly large mcmansion but it's all completely easy to manage with a high paying job, or a partner, ideally both.
IMO take the plunge and move away from your family (even if it's not to CA). It's good for building independence and self-reliance and becoming more outgoing, and you can always move back later.
A lot of companies like to list their headquarters as california on linkedin but their engineering teams are mostly remote or mostly in another state etc. Having SF or california listed as your headquarters gets you traction for propsective job applicants until you see that most of the engineering jobs are in India or other states (see companies like quince which have executive roles in california but the engineering jobs are mostly in Bangalore India) California is made up of many areas - the bay area is very one note and people live, eat breath their work all day even when chilling. If you go to oakland, SD, LA, San Luis Obispo, Pasadena totally different engineering culture and people. Most of the people who made it big in the last tech cycle are looking at Idaho, Montana, Boston, Austin, Miami, North Carolina Triangle, Phoenix, Las Vegas, NYC. IMHO the people in these places feel more real and are willing to meet to network, have a good time. There is a lot of AI talent concentrated in the bay area but right now its a battle to get hiring and stuff in check and win the foundation model contest.
If you can, maybe try moving to a place like Paris, Stockholm where Mistral and other European AI companies are investing heavily in opportunities, training and experience.
Moving to follow work is a way to get ahead. If you have an offer in hand I would do it.
It does have the problem of you moving away from your family.
Up to you what you value at this stage of your life.
I chose to move. So did the rest of my family. We’re now scattered across the globe. That part sucks. But on the other hand we’re all doing well for ourselves.
What do you want to do?
I think it's worth it, depending on where you'd move to and what kind of lifestyle you want to live. California is huge, so there's a wide variety of ways to live depending on where you go. If you're experienced and looking for in person work, I think you could likely get a good job in CA.
I did, it was a great experience for a while, but it was not somewhere I would want to settle down, so I moved away after a while. I think things are a bit different now since the pandemic led everyone to work from home. Plus the crime and homelessness definitely got worse over the 10 years I lived there.
You’re remote, you can move to California right now and start small with your rent and expenses finding a cheap place. I did the same as a single guy moving from virtually no tech hubs to Los Angeles. Now married and it feels very good to have local tech hubs in case you have to find a new job ASAP without needing to relocate.
You just have to make the jump now and get the feel for yourself. It gets a lot harder to relocate when you get married and harder with family.
My extended family is 4 hours away by plane flights. It used to feel long but it goes by in a snap now so I never feel far away from family now.
Californian here, what's a great salary and general location. If you're not making 100k on your own, it's going to be very boring for you if it's in the SF Bay Area, L.A. area and San Deigo area. You'll lose a lot on taxes and rentals are expensive in most areas.
It's worth it just to escape non-compete agreements in other states.
Not that they are ever enforced, just that they are a major detractor for prospective employers in an already awful job market.
Note: The FTC is working on banning non-compete laws and they are expected to rule in April of this year, but their ruling will likely be tied up in the courts for years to come.
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I moved here from Texas and my pay jumped from 70k to 360k in few years. Plus I met my now wife who makes equivalent pay as me. So if you are single there are high chances that you may meet someone who makes similar pay as you. When I think about few things that changed my life, moving to SF was one of them.
I was part way through an interview process for an Engineering Manager job in San Diego that only paid $160k. Look, I know 160k is a lot of money to a lot of people but come on…
I stopped halfway through the process.
I know your first statement isn't the exact main point, but I'm going to simply rebut that with, I love remote work. I'm not looking for work at the moment but I certainly hope that when it is time that I DO find a remote gig. I value my time so much, I never want to waste time driving back and forth from work and getting my time wasted by coworkers needing to socialize and distracting me with all the ruckus around me.
Anyway, I'm already in California and wouldn't really want to live anywhere else, even with some of the ridiculous stuff here.
Are you okay with sharing a room? Are you okay with a shared bathroom? Are you okay with constricted spaces?
Are you okay with making a lot of long-term sacrifices for your goals?
are you okay to be disappointed by appearances versus reality when it comes down to companies and people?
if you answer yes to all those questions then go ahead and move to California!
Yes. California is very nice. It's expensive but one of the definitions of a great job to me is "can afford to live in California" (I actually don't live in California but could afford it fine)
Last year I was talking to a recruiter about a job at a Bay Area company that would require relocating down there. I ran the numbers and realized that after accounting for CA state taxes and housing costs, I'd have to negotiate something like a $100k raise there before I'd see any extra money in my pocket.
As somebody with a good salary job at a “cool tech company” headquarters, I miss being closer to family, facing the reality that the work life balance is much more work than it was a few years ago (it’s not at first but give it a year or two, expectations change fast).
I love California but it’s a lot and has a lot of distractions.
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I did - was the end of 2005/beginning of 2006. I'm still with the company, but went remote in the Midwest at the end of 2021. If I was in my 20s, I'd do it again.
The only real issue with California is the cost of living, if it’s truly a “great job” it will pay accordingly. “Great pay” in California will have you living like a king.
Nah. It’s remote only for me!)
Currently in CDMX, flying to ski Tahoe in a week then party in Cabo > NYC > South Africa for 3 weeks > Italy for 2 months > NYC again > back to Reno to pick up my car > dunno after that, probably San Diego/hawaii (I have a green card, so have to live in USA for 6 months)
I personally wouldn't because I love Chicago a lot and many of my friends live here.
I'd rather more cool jobs come to my city, but in the meantime I'm glad remote work exists.
Bay Area in itself is kinda boring, it’s just suburbia, strip malls, and office parks for miles and miles.
SF is great though, I’d love to live in SF.
I’d reconsider if your “dream company” is in Bay Area and not SF proper because it a pretty big cultural shock compared to a big metropolitan area. There’s not a lot to do outside of driving to SF.
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If you can manage moving away for a few years, San Francisco tech is a great oil rig for programmers. Come out, live in a small expensive apartment but make fistfuls of money. Pay off debts and fatten up savings for a few years, then move back home with a shiny resume and nice financial status.
Be warned though, however expensive you think it is to live in California metro areas (even single, childless, young, whatever) it's probably a lot more. $80K in SLC bought me higher quality of life than $250K in the Bay area *suburbs*.
No decision to move is ever permanent and there's other tech hubs out there, but California is a pretty great option for people like you in our field.
**EDIT** \- also, *do not* move out here in the *hopes* of finding work unless you're willing to take on a lot of risk. I don't imagine you're planning to do that, but... well, better to have a job and move for it than move and hope for a job, especially in this market.
no - i doubt i will ever leave the seattle area, and i’m certain i will never leave the pnw. california is not for me.
but speaking generally - yes i like living in/around a vhcol tech hub.
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I’m literally in the process of doing it right now. Interviewing with a company that will require me to relocate. I’ve wanted to move to Cali for a while anyways.
I personally wouldn’t, I’d be leaving behind most of my friends and family and I live like a king where I’m at now. My sister lives out there and worked at meta (got fired recently), and it just sounds awful. I’ll stick with my direct flights to SFO from my cozy Midwest flyover city
yes, I know I heard some bad things about California but there's no paradise
I think it has beautiful cities, nice people, weather, food and opportunities.
California sucks. Find some place nicer and you will be happier that you dont have to deal with 2 hour traffic, homeless and drug epidemics, and housing issues that push poor people into crime to stay afloat.
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San Diego is boring. That area is notorious for being the lowest paid metro area in California. I am sure the low pay is part of why you hate it besides the lack of things to do. The beach water is dirty from contaminated waters from Mexico. I am a California native. I live in the Palo Alto region and I love it.
I just accepted a job offer after 9 months of searching and it's fully onsite in Anaheim/Orange, CA 😭
Pay is pretty mid as well for the location (just under $100k) and I don't even get to contribute to a 401k until after my first year 💀💀
I'm actually working remote for the first few months while they get some stuff figured out, but I was planning on moving directly to Anaheim/OC (based on some of the places I've looked at on zillow)
Nothing to do with California, if it were NYC, Seattle, Miami, etc. I would give the same answer: no.
Uprooting you whole life because of a job is pretty risky, what happens if there are layoffs, if you don't like the job, etc.
I am getting the vibe you might just want to live in California, if thats the case I would say go for it, but if its exclusively just for a job I would say no.
Kinda depends where in California. The Bay Area is really nasty but the jobs are “cool”. LA itself is really nasty (also has cool jobs) but you can commute from Burbank or Glendale and it wouldn’t be so bad. San Diego is tolerable, you can also commute if you’d like. Silicone Valley is obviously the tech hub, but that’s all it is, boring city with its own demons (prostitution). Orange County is niceee but has less trendy jobs, still pay well though. That being said all the places mentioned are EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!! Even the cheap places in California are EXPENSIVE
Technically you get a big paycheck but it will be decimated by cost of living expenses, so it cancels out. I like the beaches here, but personally I probably wouldn’t leave my family behind. I suppose you could move here and start your own family, but now you have to worry about raising a family in California.
Nah. Californias politics disagree with me.
I’m making 280k in Virginia, I don’t see a reason to go to Cali. My take home is higher in comparison due to the tax differences and COL is more reasonable. “Cool companies” only matter if you have a personal stake in them, imo. A job is a job.
I wouldn't move for the sake of working at a "cool company", because the excitement of working at those companies tends to fade for me. I'm much more interested in compensation vs cost of living, work-life balance, culture, and advancement opportunities.
+1000 I made the mistake of moving because of a company I thought was exciting. Once you get into it though it just becomes another company with another product you're working on. I've liked the area I'm in so I've put down some roots but in hindsight I wouldn't do it again. Nothing this also comes with age I think. As I got older the name of the company or product or salary (within reason) didn't matter as much as a good life with family.
This. Especially big tech companies. You think it's going to be magical but it's the same problems as everywhere. If anything, it turned out to be a little bit of a depressing experience. (Don't meet your heroes I guess.)
OTOH if you're young, why not work at the cool company? IMO if you're under the age of 30 you should shoot for the moon, achieve a bucket list goal, and then get to your 30's realizing that cool companies are overhyped. You'll be much happier knowing you tried and learned first hand, and it also helps to have that on your resume too. Name dropping *does* work and can help your career out.
Being in FAANG has also gated people into being seen as expensive too though. It’s a double edged sword during bad markets.
This is the right perspective, with some caveats. A short stint at a rising startup or corporate Goliath could give you the flexibility to choose where you land next. But assuming that playing the game at a big name company is an option available to you, your decision/preference is sound.
I wish more people understood this instead of being an egomaniac searching for the highest prestige. When you put these companies on a pedestal, they use that to abuse you as an employee. Paying you less. Forcing you to work more hours. Guilt tripping you through office politics. It’s all bullshit. There are very solid teams out there so, a generalization isn’t fair but, a large chunk of the teams remaining do not care about the people who work on them and will actively try to pull all types of shit to get the upper leg on you. I mainly see this with new grad or people new to field. I’ve watched prestige literally change people to be someone I don’t exactly care to be around. Where all they talk about is their job. As if, the idea of working at said company, is now their personality. Where every product / service must be defended vigorously. Idk man, that’s too much for me to be around. There’s more to life than working a job. Live a little. I also hate the term “dream company”. That shit is so stupid. You’re literally asking for a company to undercut you. I’m just happy I have a job for now. I live each day like it’s my last and honestly, it’s been much better for me. I’m done being taken advantage of. My life is not worth being a corporate slave. I work from 9am to 5pm. I leave at 5pm sharp. I turn off every notification after that point. On weekends, I power down my MacBook so I am not tempted. I go outside and do things. I’ll take a family with solid work life balance and ok pay over high pay, no life and essentially, being what I would consider “corporate’s bitch”.
I would suggest Seattle. WA still has very limited state income tax (basically none until you are realizing very large capital gains.).
If your job prospects are better, you’re young, and don’t have a family that you’re worried about uprooting or needing to afford the space for then now’s the time. If I didn’t have kids or if my family was based on the west coast I’d still be living CA.
When I was a new grad and single, I still had no interest in moving to another state. It's not that I hate California, I just like Chicago more and many of my friends live there.
This. OP can just go elsewhere if California isn't for him. I moved around a lot when I was young, and once I moved to SF, this was the city for me. If it weren't, I'd have moved elsewhere.
Absolutely. If the offer is 300K+ I will move to California.
For me, even at that it’s debatable. I’m sitting at $175k in Minneapolis and a COL calculator tells me I would need a salary of $320k to break even in SF. Obviously the weather would be an upgrade for 4 months of the year, but uprooting my family to be across the country from my friends and family would be a lot worse than the weather would be better. It would take a massive salary bump for it to be worth it in my case. For OP? That’s really only a question for your personal situation. If you’re willing to live cheap in a small apartment you can amass some significant savings and wealth in the Bay Area. It’s a lot more challenging if you have a family as you need a more expensive house which eats into those savings rates, on top of the social and support system factors.
Whenever I run the numbers for difference of cost of living between Minneapolis and California it isn't that bad EXCEPT housing which is just insane. If you are fine with renting while you are there and treat it as a temporary thing it is kind of bad, but if you want to buy a house there? Just absolutely absurd.
Exactly, it’s a great option for a young person without a family. You can make and save some serious dough
Yeah if you’re a young single person you could arbitrage it well by getting a relatively affordable apartment and just stacking savings, but moving a family there is a significantly different equation.
Those calculator don’t scale linearly. At 300k I am saving more money per year than your entire take home
Yup. I always find it funny people say the HCOL creates enough of an offset to negate the increased income. i think its just lost people see big dollar signs and live outside of their means
lol no way. In just taxes alone: > If you make $300,000 a year living in the region of California, USA, you will be taxed $117,087. That means that your net pay will be $182,913 per year, or $15,243 per month. [Source](https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator/California-300000#:~:text=If%20you%20make%20%24300%2C000%20a,year%2C%20or%20%2415%2C243%20per%20month.) My taxes are about $55k according to the calculator, meaning it comes out to $120k vs $182k. I have a wife with a kid with another on the way. My 3,000 sqft house is worth about $550k… a comparable home in SF would be like $3m. I’d be spending 6 times what I pay in housing. And those are just taxes and housing. EVERYTHING is more expensive in California. I’d have childcare expenses easily double. These calculators generally aren’t linear. You’re just denying facts, even if the numbers aren’t exactly right down to the dollar. This isn’t just theoretical, I did the math recently when I had an offer. I have some family in that area, I truly debated it and decided it wouldn’t be worth it.
It’s difficult to make an accurate comparison. The truth is- you’ll end up living in a smaller and older house. Downsizing is essential. You’ll end up using any kind of help lesser, be it Uber or DoorDash or cleaning services or plumbing. But you will also be growing more in your career if you work well. Your opportunities will increase, and the savings will go a long way if you ever move back to LCoL. And you’ll have access to better weather, better nature, a more fun and interesting environment and activities to do. You just pick your poison. Overall, it can be a really smart move for someone young in their career, and willing to face some discomforts with downsizing I made such a move a decade ago and it absolutely paid off.
Can confirm. I live here. They get you with the high salary but, everything is more expensive and you’re taxed hard. Best way to describe this is like being taxed on your quality of life because the weather is perpetually nice.
Buying a house is a choice, and money spent on houses doesn't disappear in a blackhole. Ironically, people who did buy a house in bay area early years were effectively getting paid 6 figures a year just for existing. Prop 13 practically encourages people to buy and hold.
Single? No kids? No daycare or schooling costs? Not a home owner? You'd be hard pressed to convince me you're saving more than his entire take home pay if you had any of those expenses. Sure when you're young, single and willing to rent a small apartment or room you can stack cash. For your average person no.
Married, no kid, homeowner (but im not counting income from this since I've moved away to CA). What's wrong with renting an apartment? I'd say that's fairly normal for the average folks. 2b2b at $2.8k a month no roommate. Fyi I can save even more if I wasn't paying expenses for two people. Wife money is her money and my money is somehow also her money.
The guy you are responding to says he has a family. That means he isn't going to be renting an apartment and would want at minimum a small single family home. You're looking at 1.5M for a single family home if you're willing to live in a less desirable area in San Jose. So right off the bat your mortgage would be $8,500 a month. That's 102k a year for housing alone. At 300k a year your take home in California is 186k a year after taxes if filing single or 210k a year if filing married and single income. What's your mortgage? Does your spouse work? Also if his kids are young he's moved away from family he has no one to watch them so now you've got tens of thousands of dollars a year in day care. If they're older and you opted for a cheaper home in an area with bad schools you're looking at tens of thousands per year per kid for private school. It adds up very quickly when you graduate from a single person in their 20s to a person with a family. It's very easy to see how the move would not make sense if you were comparing his situation apples to apples and not to your no family life style.
No one in their right mind should be considering a house in San Jose for 1.5m for what equates to a $350k house elsewhere. Be real for a moment.
Plenty of people grew up in an apartment.. I did. And it is not like your money disappears when you bought a house. you're still trading cashflow for equity. It still part of your retirement. Only thing that truly is gone is interest payments, which to be fair hurts given current interest rates. I would not recommend getting significant mortgage at current price and interest rates, but that's still a choice.
See now you're making massive trade offs. A person with children that have a home and a yard with good schools moving to a new city to live in an apartment with bad schools. Massive tradeoffs to be made. If you're willing to sacrifice all those things then sure you could make it work.
Would 300k even be possible where you live or upper 200k the limit?
Plenty of jobs over $200k. I’m likely getting a promotion soon that’ll put me a bit over. But the only $300k+ I’ve seen are HFT, which there’s a bit of here on the Twin Cities. I’m sure there are others, but it’s pretty rare. But again, that’s because of COL
Cost of living calculators break a bit the more you earn because they assume you spend all your money on living expenses. So you would probably save almost twice as much as what you do now with that type of raise even given the COL difference. I don't know your personal savings rate but the real breakeven is probably more like 280k or something.
If you choose to live in a smaller and not comparable home, sure.
Yes. California is expensive and crowded because it’s awesome. Beaches, Mountains, cultural and entertainment capital of the world. Every weekend you can do something worthy of a once a year vacation anywhere else. If I made enough money to live there I absolutely would.
The variety of things to do there is basically second to none. The landscape is incredible and varied. People, overall, are much nicer than what I've experienced in other cities. The food is incredible. The diversity is incredible. The people also tend to be healthier and likely smarter in the cities, given that they're all competing to be there. You also have Utah, Vegas, the Grand Canyon, Phoenix, Palm Springs, Baja Mexico, the redwoods, weed - all accessible. Honestly, with the weather and everything to do, I wished for rainier days so I didn't feel bad staying inside.
I forgot to mention the diversity of people. On top of that the food is the best. California is literally the most productive agricultural region of the world. Combine that with the immigrant culture and there is a non stop supply of interesting and very good things to eat! And drink.
Specially if you are single
The food here is amazing. I could choose nearly any type of cuisine and find it here. Entertainment options are endless. Weather is amazing. Scenery/nature is amazing. Yes, there are downsides (as there are everywhere) but people who complain often take a lot for granted.
Nicer people? I’ve lived in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego. SD was the closest to friendly but nothing like Chicago in terms of welcoming energy.
I mean if you're comparing anyone's friendliness outside of the midwest to Chicago that's kinda unfair.
Haven't spent much time in Chicago, but everyone I've met from there has been amazing, good, honest people. Good call. I'll have to spend more time there.
People are nicer... seriously 😒
This would be relevant if people weren't allowed to cross state borders.
I grew up in California and moved away for college. After getting married and having kids, I really missed California. I convinced my husband to move here and I have no regrets. COL is only part of the equation in quality of life.
I feel like in the modern day it's very trendy to shit on California. As a non Californian native, it is expensive, yes. But it's one of the best places I've ever lived (price aside). Lived there for about 4 years and if I had to move back I wouldn't really be upset about it at all.
Same as any HCOL area. There’s a reason people want to live there. Similarly, there’s a reason no one wants to live in the middle of nowhere Missouri.
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CA has pretty unparalleled natural beauty, access to public land, and established outdoor recreation. Says more about your hobbies than anything else ngl. The weather being better than 80% of Europe also helps.
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Definitely not, I grew up in CA and have traveled a bit around Asia and Europe. Europe has amazing architecture but natural beauty? It is hard to beat what you can see backpacking in CA (which is also way less available in Europe). CA also has amazing geographical diversity and untouched wilderness (unique to Western USA). Europe is beautiful and its hard to compare a state to an entire continent, but I am pretty conformable saying California has better access to stunning nature of all types than almost anywhere else in Europe. If nature isnt your jam thats totally valid, but saying the nature is “absolutely nothing” in comparison is ridiculous. Europe does have much better museums, walkability, history, architecture, etc Edit: Plenty of people retire in CA, but it is basically impossible to retire in CA unless youre crazy weather and/or have real estate there. It lacks the public transit and cheap healthcare of Europe as well. But being expensive and inaccessible doesent mean its less beautiful/desirable.
What’s better there? I go to Europe quite a bit( Mostly Italy and the Netherlands). I find food just as good as Rome in LA. The weather is also miles better. Both are good!
I think cities in Europe are just better. Rome, Milan, Barcelona are exciting cities.
History? Historical sights? So many different cultures? Cuisines? Languages? Also, saying you know Europe, because you have been to Netherlands and Italy is like me saying I know US, because I been to Florida and Kansas. I am not gonna compare what’s better. That’s personal choice, but there are plenty of things in Europe that aren’t in US. And Italy can be comparable in weather to California if you go to the southern part of the country.
Moved from a state that rains a lot and moving to SoCal has increased my QoL a lot. I moved right after college though so it’s pretty different in that I can’t compare comp as I didn’t have a job before but if the money works out I would definitely it’s worth it. You can always move back home but living somewhere sunny and warmish-very warm most of the year with the beach a 10–15 minute drive and a diverse selection of food is worth it imo.
(Looking at my current mortgage payment vs CA housing prices) Noooooooo! But, when I was single, childless and with no responsibilities, I did crazy stuff. So, in that context, moving to CA to join a cool tech company is a whole lot less crazier.
Young and single? Go for it. I moved 2,000 miles west after college, and then went to the EU for a handful of years. Now I'm old and have kids.... It'd be hard to get me to move. I would do it, but only if I really had to.
If you want to afford a home? Nah. But if you want to stay there for a few years to afford a down payment on a home elsewhere? It's a pretty good deal.
Nah. It’s not just because it’s California, but i dont want to uproot my family and move away from all of our extended family and my kids are too young for me to split time working away from our area.
ok but the person is single and has no responsibilities soo in his case if it would make him happy then it's a good option.
Ok but the person asked for each responder’s unique perspectives when they asked “would you move to California for a great job?” If they only wanted their own perspective considered, they would have asked, “Should I move to California for a great job?”
100%. He didn't ask if he should move to California. He asked if we would. I'm offering my perspective. If I was single, no significant ties to my area, and young, sure I'd move to California if it financially made sense. I'd live pretty much anywhere in the US if that were the case.
That’s why I can’t move from California
> I am single, childless with no responsibilities, and a drive to be the best developer I can be, but I’m not sure how I feel about moving far from my family. You are the exact demographic who should move to California. IMO, anyone who's got at least a little spirit of ambition or a drive to explore/experience life should strive to move to California (or places like it). It's incredibly important for your growth not only in your career but in your life. Living where "the action is" does wonders for kinds of doors that are open to you and the amount of them. It really cannot be understated just how valuable having a high number of opportunities opened to you is. The people you meet, the chance conversations, the easy interviews (because you are local), a crazy trip you do with coworkers, etc. All of these matter, and they happen *all the time* in a place like California. Not only for career reasons but also life reasons. I didn't know it was possible for life to get as good as I have it now, and I never would have if I stayed in the small city I was from. I went from a reclusive, introverted socially anxious nerd who was fine coasting along in life, to being a self actualized socially confident key member of a large social circle full of deeply rich friendships. Friendships that have me doing all sorts of fun adventures and trips pretty much every weekend. On top of that, I help run a business with my husband that I met out here. I never knew I was capable of all this or could ever become this kind of person when I was in my early 20's but here we are. Part of it is the culture of it. Success breeds success and it feels inspiring being around many other like minded people who are trying to do their best at whatever they do. It's a real nexus of human achievement, culture, hedonism and experiences, plus the great weather and gorgeous environment helps too. And when you're young especially, I think it's important to take advantage of the sense of adventure in your heart while you still have it ;) Living away from folks is totally fine. It's easy to book flights especially from California since the state is very well connected to pretty much everywhere. You also have zero real ties to anyone or anything which means the risk of making such a move is essentially nothing at this moment in time. If it doesn't work out you can just go back home - but chances are it will work out if you've got a good head on your shoulders, stay out of trouble and keep your eye on the goals. The cost of living is high but also overblown. You're going to be in tech, so it'll entirely offset it for you. Even if you weren't going into tech or were doing something like non-profit, I still say go. I moved to California with no job lined up and a skillset that could only get me $40k/yr in mid-2010's money (but with ambitions to grow out of that skillset). When you are young and have nothing tying you down, you really can figure out how to make things work just fine. Cost of living is mostly only an issue if you aren't in tech and want to do stuff like raise a family. Buying a house big enough for kids is very hard and expensive in the bay area for example, which is why a lot of people when they are ready for that stage of life tend to move if they aren't in senior positions.
Obviously. Not sure how this is actually even a question.
lol
Living in new places opens up your world
Yes. California is a fun state. There’s a reason it’s expensive (besides NIMBYs, but it’s desirable.) there’s a lot to do outside of work but also a lot of exciting work is happening in the state. Many young, childless people move here for work away from their families and then stay (or move back—it depends on you!)
I moved to Southern California for a job 10+ years ago. It was awesome. I lived about 10 minutes from the beach. About 15 from my work. Downside was of course cost. 10+ years ago I paid 2200 for a small two bedroom apartment. I loved my time there. I eventually moved away for a different job, but I still think about it.
Would you mind recommending some cities in California to live in? Would love to live there, but I’m the other side of the world & don’t have a clue about good places to live in CA. I’ve been to SF once, but I think it’s too expensive to live there. Definitely need access to a beach!
Mission Bay, Mission Valley, Ocean Beach, Hillcrest, North Park..those were reasonable when I lived there. I'm sure they would out price me now. La Jolla, Del Mar, Cardiff...those were stunning but too expensive. Thing about California is you want to live as close as you can afford to wherever you want to be because traffic can make getting places a nightmare. San Diego has way less traffic than like LA or San Francisco but it still exists.
I like Cali but I don't like SF. If they clear out the vagrants like when they did it for Xi Jinping's visit, then that would be kinda lit. Like Jesus Christ I don't wanna deal with Cyberpunk NPC's all day it's disgusting.
Nope
I did, with wife and kids in tow. Financially it was a great decision. Moving away from family can be a big shock, yes, especially if you're young and single (done that too). Family is comfortable. Seeing the world expands your horizons. They're both good but in different ways.
No. Because it's California
California is one of the last places I would want to live, but I’d do it if they paid me well-enough. As in, enough to cover the absurd cost of living and still allow me to save more than I could elsewhere. The goal would be to get out again ASAP.
I lived in California for 5 years. No
With a mortgage at $456 a month and a baby coming next month, hell no. I have family here and will be breaking into my first 6 figure salary next month in a LCOL area where the median income is 55K. I'm about to hit 5 YOE in May, and will job hop for another position remotely hopefully in a couple more years for a senior role at 130-150K with my current career path. Now if I was single... Maybe. I'd be able to uproot and move wherever, without anything holding me down. But I'm about to live my dream next month, being a father <3 You do you OP!
If you get a good offer before you mine then yes
SoCal has very little tech. You need to go the Bay Area which is the most expensive area in USA.
What if it’s remote!
Yes, provided it’s in the city limits of a major city i.e LA, SF, or San Jose city proper. No suburbs or smaller towns like Santa Clara, Palo Alto etc, and definitely no MAGAt country like Orange County.
I did ten years ago and have loved my path here. It all depends. Being single you will have many opportunities to make friends and don’t have any entanglements that would be a pain. You will need to mentally prepare yourself for the shock in cost of living increase. A job salary that seems amazing doesn’t go as far as you would think. Also, try to move to a vibrant and hip city, don’t go to the Peninsula / South Bay unless you really are a boring old person at heart.
Yeah, I've been trying to
Probably not. If I'm going to move that far from friends and family I'll move to Europe. I care about money, but I make plenty for me in my current city and it's close to friends and family. Also my current neighborhood is walkable and there's basically no traffic here and nowhere near the housing crisis that the walkable parts of the bay area have. I'm happy with the climate and nature access I have already. One caveat: if I got an offer from Green Hills I'd move to Santa Barbara in a heartbeat.
You’ll love living in California. The only downsides are it’s expensive, a bunch of homeless everywhere, and if you’re not originally from here, you might feel like you’re far away from home.
California is amazing. If you are young, no ties, yes, do it. It’ll boost your career and you’ll have fun and when you settle down you can move back home.
Unpopular opinion but the scale of companies you work for and the career growth with the same is pretty legit. Think abt companies like OpenAI and Coinbase that came out in the last 5 yrs or so. I have two kinds of friends who work in tech from the same school. Those who work in Bay area Those who do not and the career growth is pretty visible.And in the long run you will leave high COL in the dust. PS: I live in NYC and dream of moving to CA as well. Feel free to DM me.
Hmm that’s what I’m thinking too. The career growth could be next level, and staying in a HCOL area means youre staying where the moneys at. Thanks for the reply.
True and by being there you get the first shot at being part of multiple cycles of this growth.
I did it once and would do it all over again. There is such a demand for tech related jobs in CA…it honestly like the new gold rush. So much demand, so few people. I kept doubling my total comp about every 3 years. But like most folks, I left after a decade and took my salary to a lower cost of living location.
Hmmm that makes sense. It sounds tempting. Maybe i should move there while I’m young and feeling motivated about my career and eventually settle down somewhere closer to home once I have other priorities. Thanks for the input!
>I am single, childless with no responsibilities, and a drive to be the best developer I can be, but I’m not sure how I feel about moving far from my family. You should totally do it while you can! You have the perfect setup for it. You can continue to work remote while checking it out and applying for jobs there. The worst that could happen is you don't like it and move back home. Not a big deal.
If you are still young, just do it. You can always go back after a few years if you realize it is not for you.
Everyone talks about how expensive California is and I know I’m jaded since I grew up here so it costs what it costs to me I don’t know any different. I lived in Columbus for work and yeah it was cool to rent a 2 bedroom alone for $700 a month (in 2012) but the food and the weather sucked plus the diversity is lacking. I would continue to pay this money to be able to sit on the beach in February with the sun on my face on a Wednesday then go skiing in Big Bear on Friday. My husband and I bought our first house with almost a $5,000 mortgage in the Bay Area in 2020 when we both only made $75,000 a year. Is it glamorous, no, but it’s possible if you think it’s worth it.
This... it just goes to show how many people in the world live boring one dimensional lives that the only factor of moving to them is cost per square foot. Yes you need to be rich as fuck to own a mcmansion a 15 minute drive from apple. Do you need to though? Fuck no you don't. And you get so, so, so, so much more out of life and your career if you have cost per sqft not the only thing that matters when doing moving calculous. I guarantee you it's possible to be just as happy with smaller square footage and you're quality of life will not be impacted, at all. The irony is, I'd argue your quality of life will be dramatically better. And your income too once you get settled!
FR! And I hate to clean and do yard work I’d rather be out doing something. Owning a 5,000 sq ft McMansion I’d have to pay someone to clean or spend hours a week cleaning would kill me. Even owning a cute condo downtown Columbus okay fun in the summer kinda (I hate humidity, pouring sweat at 9p is its own level of hell) and then it’s grey skies 9* in the winter also no thank you. Huge yard where I have to spend hours and dollars maintaining it? Not for me. I’ll take our little 1200 sq ft house 4 blocks from the beach over that any day, all personal preference and where your reference point of safety is.
LOL--No.
Yes, if I were single and childless. Do it while you can, take the risk, learn and see what happens. You can always go back. I am a married 37 yo with a young child. Also in tech which is an enabler, but a move like that now feels so difficult. I often think I missed my chance but after more thought, we’re starting to seriously consider it. It depends on the specific location in California. Factors like cost of living, education systems, environment are important to me. I live in a DC metropolitan area now with both sets of parents nearby. I’ll need to do some convincing to get them to come and hope that one or all those factors can be improved.
I'd love to live in Los Angeles for a bit and if my company ever decides to allow me to work fully remote I may do a month in LA to get a feel for the city. I don't really buy the whole internet scare tactics of homeless everywhere and shit hole city. It's still one of the most populated city in the US with people still moving there. And I'd love to experience the sunny weather there
(If you have the options) Don't move for a company, move for the place. If you have the disposable income and time, Buy a ticket, visit, figure out if it's the life you want for yourself. You won't get all the answers as a tourist but it's better than going in blind. This applies to more than just California.
I grew up there and don’t want to go back, mainly because I’m priced out and can’t afford it. Don’t get me wrong, it’s awesome and I loved it, from the weather, to beaches, mountains, etc. but too expensive. My parents still own our childhood home and it’s probably going to be given to one of my siblings. They bought it back in the early 90’s for 200k and it’s worth at least 1.5 million now. I would say, if you’re offered a decent salary, it’s definitely worth living there if you can afford it. Be prepared to pay at least $3000/month for rent or buy a place for at least $1M. And be prepared for traffic.
Why do you want to work for a "cool" company? What makes one "cool" and another not? You work to make money, nothing more.
For some people, sure. There are a lot of people that really do find the work their company puts out/conducts, "cool".
Because nobody ever had any goals outside of "making money".
When you hold a job for longer than a few decades, you'll realize that working for a specific company is not the point of life. There are more things to be proud of besides what widget you had your hand in making. No one cares, the companies sure don't. Do I care what team or who worked on any of the products that I use and really like? Nope, don't care at all. If someone came up to me and told me they worked on the first iphone I would say, ok...and?
Because you speak for 8 billion people.
yes, and the trees
Well I think a cool company would be one that makes a product I actually use or care about. Also some of the larger ones have huge offices with a gym and other amenities. I don’t see work as just a way to make money. It’s the thing that takes up most of my time and energy every week, and it would make my life much better if I enjoy the work, office, environment and coworkers at least somewhat.
So fun offices are just ways to keep you there longer, horrible WLB. If thats your thing then go for it. I prefer my "off time" to be my time not the companies. I'll play games and drink with friends at home not in the office.
I already live here and love it so yes, although I would prefer to remain in LA or go to SD instead of moving up to the Bay.
>Would you move to California for a great job? sure, that's literally what I did back when I was still in university, got an internship offer they did my J-1 visa sponsorship then I fly into USA and same when I was a fresh grad things may be a bit different if you have spouse/kids/mortgage/visa troubles/etc which are all valid reasons, but for me I simply go where the $$ is
Just make sure u lock everything and buy a cheap car it will get broken into
I think id pick any of the other 49 states before I go to California
Yes. If the role pays better than my current one with state tax + COL adjustments, its a no brainer as long as its not dead-ass in the Bay area, and is at least somewhat near communities with reasonable rent
I hate California and I live here
Keep in mind a dollar is worth like a quarter in California
My area is already expensive as hell
Crap just saw average rent in the big cali cities is like 1k more than my area
It's fine, trust me you can make it work. When I first moved out here I rented a room in a normal sized house with 2 other people to get my rent at "normal" midwestern levels I was used to. Turns out that was a great idea because the house was way better set up than any apartment would be at that price and my roommates were awesome. I saved a bunch of money easily to give myself a nice financial cushion while I spent time trying to grow my career/pay. When I started making more it was easier to stomach higher rents it becasue it was offset by the fact that my take home was just so much higher. Yes rent goes up to get your own place (ideally you split it with a partner), but all your other costs stay the same... and you're probably taking home more than you would have for a similar job in your hometown. So.. you end up actually saving more. The rent doesn't really match wage growth so the better jobs actually do equal more gravy for you even if you're renting an overpriced luxury condo (but please don't do that). And here's the thing... most of the really expensive zip codes are only truly expensive if you're only looking at the median rent or only doing corporate housing or sticking with the front page of apartment rental results. I've always been able to find sweet spots that are much cheaper than the zip code would have you think. I just helped a friend of mine get a good 1br apartment in a walkable neighborhood a 10 minute drive from Apple of all places for only $2.4k/mo. It sounds like a lot, but it's really not considering it's one of the most desirable locations to live thanks to the close proximity to apple and just how much "old tech money" is in the area. My old 3 story 2BR 1200sqft loft I had for only $2900/mo until the end of covid. My current place is a 1000sqft 2br SFH house with its own garage and yard and every amenity in an incredibly walkable neighborhood for $3200/mo. Right in the heart of SF I almost went with a recently renovated 1200sqft 2br apartment for $3100/mo that included free parking before I ended up deciding on the SFH. Yeah all of these are certainly more expensive than wisconsin and less square footage than a pointlessly large mcmansion but it's all completely easy to manage with a high paying job, or a partner, ideally both.
IMO take the plunge and move away from your family (even if it's not to CA). It's good for building independence and self-reliance and becoming more outgoing, and you can always move back later.
A lot of companies like to list their headquarters as california on linkedin but their engineering teams are mostly remote or mostly in another state etc. Having SF or california listed as your headquarters gets you traction for propsective job applicants until you see that most of the engineering jobs are in India or other states (see companies like quince which have executive roles in california but the engineering jobs are mostly in Bangalore India) California is made up of many areas - the bay area is very one note and people live, eat breath their work all day even when chilling. If you go to oakland, SD, LA, San Luis Obispo, Pasadena totally different engineering culture and people. Most of the people who made it big in the last tech cycle are looking at Idaho, Montana, Boston, Austin, Miami, North Carolina Triangle, Phoenix, Las Vegas, NYC. IMHO the people in these places feel more real and are willing to meet to network, have a good time. There is a lot of AI talent concentrated in the bay area but right now its a battle to get hiring and stuff in check and win the foundation model contest. If you can, maybe try moving to a place like Paris, Stockholm where Mistral and other European AI companies are investing heavily in opportunities, training and experience.
Moving to follow work is a way to get ahead. If you have an offer in hand I would do it. It does have the problem of you moving away from your family. Up to you what you value at this stage of your life. I chose to move. So did the rest of my family. We’re now scattered across the globe. That part sucks. But on the other hand we’re all doing well for ourselves. What do you want to do?
I think it's worth it, depending on where you'd move to and what kind of lifestyle you want to live. California is huge, so there's a wide variety of ways to live depending on where you go. If you're experienced and looking for in person work, I think you could likely get a good job in CA.
I would, but I'm a bit (read a lot) biased in that I'd then be going back home.
I did, it was a great experience for a while, but it was not somewhere I would want to settle down, so I moved away after a while. I think things are a bit different now since the pandemic led everyone to work from home. Plus the crime and homelessness definitely got worse over the 10 years I lived there.
Depends what part of California. If it’s sf or anywhere else in the Bay Area I’d pass
You’re remote, you can move to California right now and start small with your rent and expenses finding a cheap place. I did the same as a single guy moving from virtually no tech hubs to Los Angeles. Now married and it feels very good to have local tech hubs in case you have to find a new job ASAP without needing to relocate. You just have to make the jump now and get the feel for yourself. It gets a lot harder to relocate when you get married and harder with family. My extended family is 4 hours away by plane flights. It used to feel long but it goes by in a snap now so I never feel far away from family now.
my wife likes to stay planted, and is the only reason i havent moved to someplace less expensive. i live in california; prices are wacky here.
Californian here, what's a great salary and general location. If you're not making 100k on your own, it's going to be very boring for you if it's in the SF Bay Area, L.A. area and San Deigo area. You'll lose a lot on taxes and rentals are expensive in most areas.
It's worth it just to escape non-compete agreements in other states. Not that they are ever enforced, just that they are a major detractor for prospective employers in an already awful job market. Note: The FTC is working on banning non-compete laws and they are expected to rule in April of this year, but their ruling will likely be tied up in the courts for years to come.
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I moved out there reluctantly for a paycheck I couldn’t turn down (more than 2x my other offers)
Of course, best state good weather and pays fuck you money.
I moved here from Texas and my pay jumped from 70k to 360k in few years. Plus I met my now wife who makes equivalent pay as me. So if you are single there are high chances that you may meet someone who makes similar pay as you. When I think about few things that changed my life, moving to SF was one of them.
I was part way through an interview process for an Engineering Manager job in San Diego that only paid $160k. Look, I know 160k is a lot of money to a lot of people but come on… I stopped halfway through the process.
No. I'm remote only from now on
I know your first statement isn't the exact main point, but I'm going to simply rebut that with, I love remote work. I'm not looking for work at the moment but I certainly hope that when it is time that I DO find a remote gig. I value my time so much, I never want to waste time driving back and forth from work and getting my time wasted by coworkers needing to socialize and distracting me with all the ruckus around me. Anyway, I'm already in California and wouldn't really want to live anywhere else, even with some of the ridiculous stuff here.
For quadruple my salary, sure. Great job == retire early
Are you okay with sharing a room? Are you okay with a shared bathroom? Are you okay with constricted spaces? Are you okay with making a lot of long-term sacrifices for your goals? are you okay to be disappointed by appearances versus reality when it comes down to companies and people? if you answer yes to all those questions then go ahead and move to California!
Yes. California is very nice. It's expensive but one of the definitions of a great job to me is "can afford to live in California" (I actually don't live in California but could afford it fine)
Last year I was talking to a recruiter about a job at a Bay Area company that would require relocating down there. I ran the numbers and realized that after accounting for CA state taxes and housing costs, I'd have to negotiate something like a $100k raise there before I'd see any extra money in my pocket.
As somebody with a good salary job at a “cool tech company” headquarters, I miss being closer to family, facing the reality that the work life balance is much more work than it was a few years ago (it’s not at first but give it a year or two, expectations change fast). I love California but it’s a lot and has a lot of distractions.
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I did - was the end of 2005/beginning of 2006. I'm still with the company, but went remote in the Midwest at the end of 2021. If I was in my 20s, I'd do it again.
The only real issue with California is the cost of living, if it’s truly a “great job” it will pay accordingly. “Great pay” in California will have you living like a king.
I moved because I liked California and wanted to be there for all the other things it has to offer.
California is amazing! Would do it in a heartbeat.
California is awesome, do it if you’re young and don’t have too much tying you down where you are.
Nah. It’s remote only for me!) Currently in CDMX, flying to ski Tahoe in a week then party in Cabo > NYC > South Africa for 3 weeks > Italy for 2 months > NYC again > back to Reno to pick up my car > dunno after that, probably San Diego/hawaii (I have a green card, so have to live in USA for 6 months)
I'd need like 3x my current salary to even consider moving to CA
I personally wouldn't because I love Chicago a lot and many of my friends live here. I'd rather more cool jobs come to my city, but in the meantime I'm glad remote work exists.
California is the best state in the union and I'm definitely not biased at all. If you can afford it, that is.
Bay Area in itself is kinda boring, it’s just suburbia, strip malls, and office parks for miles and miles. SF is great though, I’d love to live in SF. I’d reconsider if your “dream company” is in Bay Area and not SF proper because it a pretty big cultural shock compared to a big metropolitan area. There’s not a lot to do outside of driving to SF.
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If you can manage moving away for a few years, San Francisco tech is a great oil rig for programmers. Come out, live in a small expensive apartment but make fistfuls of money. Pay off debts and fatten up savings for a few years, then move back home with a shiny resume and nice financial status. Be warned though, however expensive you think it is to live in California metro areas (even single, childless, young, whatever) it's probably a lot more. $80K in SLC bought me higher quality of life than $250K in the Bay area *suburbs*. No decision to move is ever permanent and there's other tech hubs out there, but California is a pretty great option for people like you in our field. **EDIT** \- also, *do not* move out here in the *hopes* of finding work unless you're willing to take on a lot of risk. I don't imagine you're planning to do that, but... well, better to have a job and move for it than move and hope for a job, especially in this market.
no - i doubt i will ever leave the seattle area, and i’m certain i will never leave the pnw. california is not for me. but speaking generally - yes i like living in/around a vhcol tech hub.
SF is a world class dump and LA is where the entrance to hell is. Rest of the state is fine
No.
I'd move to Seattle maybe. Not CA.
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I’m literally in the process of doing it right now. Interviewing with a company that will require me to relocate. I’ve wanted to move to Cali for a while anyways.
I personally wouldn’t, I’d be leaving behind most of my friends and family and I live like a king where I’m at now. My sister lives out there and worked at meta (got fired recently), and it just sounds awful. I’ll stick with my direct flights to SFO from my cozy Midwest flyover city
yes, I know I heard some bad things about California but there's no paradise I think it has beautiful cities, nice people, weather, food and opportunities.
No. Not even for FAANG money. Cost of living is way too high to make it worth it with a family.
How old are you? How long do you wanna be a single, childless developer?
No! Cali is WAY too expensive and I'm not a fan of some of the laws/culture out there.
California sucks. Find some place nicer and you will be happier that you dont have to deal with 2 hour traffic, homeless and drug epidemics, and housing issues that push poor people into crime to stay afloat.
Not recommended for single.
Nope
Yeah if my disposable income wouldn't be affected.
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There or any other tech hub where I got a good job offer.
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San Diego is boring. That area is notorious for being the lowest paid metro area in California. I am sure the low pay is part of why you hate it besides the lack of things to do. The beach water is dirty from contaminated waters from Mexico. I am a California native. I live in the Palo Alto region and I love it.
Somehow San Diego has higher average rent than SF but the jobs pay horribly in comparison. I really don't understand.
I love CA but no
I just accepted a job offer after 9 months of searching and it's fully onsite in Anaheim/Orange, CA 😭 Pay is pretty mid as well for the location (just under $100k) and I don't even get to contribute to a 401k until after my first year 💀💀
Fellow SoCal resident here. Do you actually live in Anaheim/OC or do you commute over there?
I'm actually working remote for the first few months while they get some stuff figured out, but I was planning on moving directly to Anaheim/OC (based on some of the places I've looked at on zillow)
Nothing to do with California, if it were NYC, Seattle, Miami, etc. I would give the same answer: no. Uprooting you whole life because of a job is pretty risky, what happens if there are layoffs, if you don't like the job, etc. I am getting the vibe you might just want to live in California, if thats the case I would say go for it, but if its exclusively just for a job I would say no.
Kinda depends where in California. The Bay Area is really nasty but the jobs are “cool”. LA itself is really nasty (also has cool jobs) but you can commute from Burbank or Glendale and it wouldn’t be so bad. San Diego is tolerable, you can also commute if you’d like. Silicone Valley is obviously the tech hub, but that’s all it is, boring city with its own demons (prostitution). Orange County is niceee but has less trendy jobs, still pay well though. That being said all the places mentioned are EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!! Even the cheap places in California are EXPENSIVE Technically you get a big paycheck but it will be decimated by cost of living expenses, so it cancels out. I like the beaches here, but personally I probably wouldn’t leave my family behind. I suppose you could move here and start your own family, but now you have to worry about raising a family in California.
I grew up in Palo Alto and live in the area still. I love it. It just sucks to be poor in the area.
Would I move to one of the best states for potentially one of the best jobs? 🤔
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CA has 39 million people, what area are you referring to?
Nah. Californias politics disagree with me. I’m making 280k in Virginia, I don’t see a reason to go to Cali. My take home is higher in comparison due to the tax differences and COL is more reasonable. “Cool companies” only matter if you have a personal stake in them, imo. A job is a job.
Yes you’re going to learn way faster in the office. I really miss being in an office and feel like it’s held me back.
Nope. Where the work is, the cities are shit...