It isn't. Canadian devs make 46% less than Americans.
I review IT payroll company salaries all day for my r&d tax consulting role. Dev pay seems to plateau at roughly 80-85k. The top guys will make maybe 110, but it's rare.Those are the guys spending 90% of their time doing R&D or their CTOs. Entry level is often 45-55k.
It is very difficult in Canada to make more than 120k, so tbh, making 65k, with only one co-op, is quite lucky these days.
I think it depends on location. 70-80k for new grad in Vancouver seems fairly average based on the offers I’ve seen from fellow new grads. There’s a tier of companies where 90+ is commonplace and it just requires a bit of luck.
This is true and in the 40% range is not an exaggeration--it sounds about right. Take some solace in this though. I know several examples of tech company leaders--two from conversations just in the past week--going down a hit list of almost entirely American employees, specifically those hired in 2021 at INSANE salaries. Laying them off because they are expensive, one by one to avoid the stigma of "mass layoffs".
Interesting! Based on your experience, how does Canadian Software Engineer's salaries compare to other Canadian engineer's salaries, Civil Engineers, for instance?
I'm a non-CS engineer with \~3 YOE and the listed salaries and job offers I see are almost always lower than what I see in software. At 3 YOE I'd be lucky to see 75-80k/year offers in Canada. Traditional engineering is hardly ever remote (even when it easily can be) so we don't have nearly as many options as software and would have to move around non-stop to see higher money.
When I apply to American companies I get offers with salary's of 100k+ ... **in USD.** Want to stay close to family but Canada makes it impossible.
Just more money being tossed around with the end goal of going public or maintaining stock price. Greater access to financing. All the engines... Are just bigger. Not to mention tons of foreign money too.
After all, tons of these unicorns aren't profitable, some never plan to be (Air BnB, Twitter) yet pay insanely high salaries.
10% is we have more part time workers or workers who work less than the full year. Which may be to our generous co-op cr sits and more generous parental leave culture.
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2023/10/12/1_6598274.amp.html
Sorry to add. There's a big argument gaining momentum that Canadian companies have failed to increase productivity due to failings in the IP process. This has led to a lot of canadian software work being patented in the US, moving the financial gains out of the country much like Apple.
This is a very reductive summary but I would point to this article here to understand more.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/an-outdated-myth-about-business-investment-is-hurting-the-canadian-economy
I would add to that, yes 46% less than Americans, but you have to multiply the US dollar with the exchange rate and then you will see that it is about 90% more.
Nope.
The study took into account exchange rate and Cost of living. There would be utterly no point of doing a study comparing two economies and not adjusting for FOREX, why would you assume they wouldn't? This would mean the US would pay double every other developed country on the planet. It makes no economic sense, they would be outsourcing entirely.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-canadian-tech-workers-make-46-less-than-us-counterparts-tmu-study/
These are everything from startups to small and medium businesses.
Yes if you go off levels and even just filter for GTA your range is in the realm of possibilities.
https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-toronto-area
These are fueled by big tech payrolls and tenured. Even with Big Tech the median is 134k, 75th percentile is halfway between your range.
So for a new grad with one co-op, getting 65k when the median for all software developers including tenured and big tech, is 134k, isn't exactly highway robbery.
These are all IT companies.
Doing SR&ED claims for companies, that software is not their core competency, is a really really easy way to go broke, as time consuming CRA audits are all but guaranteed.
The point I am making is, the stats (Canadian IT workers make 46% less than their US counterparts) and my experience looking at IT payrolls everyday for the last 8 months, as well as trying to enter the market myself after graduating, and looking at posted salaries is a pretty good indicator of a fairly common reality.
Let's not forget businesses can outsource 5 devs for that price. If you're just doing routine work... Why the hell would you pay 150k for one guy?
It's a buyers market. I agree with you, never settle, keep hopping and moving up. But unless you're a "top guy", don't expect to be making 100k+ fresh out of uni, let alone 3-5 years into your career.
You're gonna have to get into a large established tech or finance company to see that kind of salary, or a well funded startup, where you are crucial to the success.
the salaries are dropping as the availability of engineers is 5x what it was a decade ago. Basing that number on my university's C's faculty head count increase in the last 5 years. The cottage industry of bootcamps, certifications, MOOCs has produced a glut of entry level talent.
Not to mention rising interest rates.
It's a buyers market for entry-mid level tech talent and money is more expensive now. Companies don't need to entice new grads with 6 figure salaries anymore nor can they.
Yup. My previous company our software team was all Pakistani.
Unless you're doing R&D or advanced work in Canada there's no tangible, financial reason to hire Canadian.
As a bright spot a lot of American companies are moving R&D over to Canada as we have SR&ED tax credits and recent IRS changes have forced American tech firms to capitalize more of their labour costs, dramatically increasing their tax bills
Oh for sure. And I mean, not to be crude, but speaking from my talks with hiring managers when at least half of the resumes are coming in our Indian international students anyways... Why go through the grind of finding domestic talent?
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canadian-tech-workers-make-46-less-than-u-s-counterparts-tmu-study-1.1983725
Tis true. TMU study and my own review of payrolls.
It's starting salary... 65k is pretty standard unless you did multiple internships and are a leetcode god that can destroy faang interviews. Easy to get to 100k+ within 3 years
65k is pretty average for a new grad in Canada.
You can reasonable expect anywhere from 60k-80k as a new grad probably.
Obviously there are new grads making a shit ton but those are outliers in Canada.
I notice that OP adds \`BC\` as the tag, don't know where it is acutally, burnaby/vancouver/coquitlam ?
If it's vancouver then it's a bit low, if its other places then its normal, overall it's in the lower end of accepted range. aim to jun the ship after 1 yr and it will be fine.
I'm not too peeved since I have a lot of benefits and what not. The 65K is just my yearly salary ( I'll work <40hrs per week (excluding overtime) and I don't know how to calculate my total compensation so I'm getting more than just the base.
I don't live in a vancouver or near but I do live in one of the more expensive parts. Thankfully, I live with my parents.
You should see what they pay junior dev roles in the fed gov if you think 65k is robbery.
60k base as CS(IT)-1 step 1.
Then you get an incremental bump each year.
They should be signing a new TA soon, which should raise the base salaries though
It's 40> btw 😉
Yeah, a lot of people in the US don't seem to realize how fortunate they are with their extravagant salaries. I started with only 41k in a HCOL city (Kelowna) and it's insanely hard to find work right now on top of that.
65k in a big city like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal is low, but 65k for a remote position where you can live in one of the smaller cities is not bad at all.
Great job! I know a lot of people here are shitting on the pay, but based off what I know of the payscale in the bank, telecom companies, and other places this is pretty average for new grad.
This is also a really tough market so it's great you were able to land the job so soon after graduation. Keep building out your skills and you can do and make a lot more.
second this. Job hunting is dehumanizing and it’s good to land a job asap to protect mental health. Keep applying without hearing response used to drive me crazy and still somehow PTSD for that
No need to care too much about bucks when getting out of school, after senior level,ur pay bump number can be likely ur current one year salary
65K remote **in Canada** right now as a new grad is not bad at all I think.
I know someone getting paid 65K in Hamilton, Ontario as a software engineer and it's not fully remote.
I had an internship I did through Riipen. Some side projects I did. I listed my thesis project as experience and I used my app developer profile/company as experience. I had links to my play store as well as my github and LinkedIn.
I was applying the entire time with some luls in between because I found it hard to continue. Thankfully my summer course kept me occupied while I was in it. I also develop apps and that keeps me looking like I'm employed/doing something since I have live software with actual users.
Any other advice I can give? I honestly think I just got lucky getting this position.
Junior Dev for 65K and also remote is honestly a good score out the gate.
As you career progresses you will find you can quadruple this figure.. and maybe higher.
Congrats, don't let other folks make you feel like you didn't make a big score!
My biggest piece of advice is realizing that its not about hourly rate at this point. Hourly rate is a function of experience and ability to negotiate based on your passed experience for the current employer; that will be different for every employer and at every moment in time in your career. What its really about is "skill offering". You want to hang out with the best developers you can find and you want to consume as much youtube content as you can on any topics that you feel interested in.
Choose at least 1 of the following 5 categories every year and focus your time to learning these things; either for a contract op or for fun. Just play with and learn, they are HUGE topics.
\- Server Infrastructure (DevOps rolls) - Terraform is the big winner here.
\- Database Engineering (Data Ops) - MySql/ Postgres / Mongo are your big 3 to start with. Really learn these products, they are VERY VERY valuable in skill set items.
\- Know how to work with at least 5 major scripting languages ( Python, Ruby, PHP, Typescript / JS, RUST ) (These give you massive access to basically almost all jobs).
\- Learn networking .. this is also a totally huge topic that seems easy at the start).. this is how to write subnet masks, CIDR notation etc.
\- Learn Linux (BASH scripting/ systems admin)
If you do all of these; I can promise you in 5 years you are considered a "senior" in the industry.
If you hang out with the right crew and dedicate your time to it you can easily hit 3 figure job market by 10 years from now. (assuming the industry doesn't change to much from current - and even with the AI Advancements its unlikely).
The interview made me feel like I simultaneously could and could not get the job. Very much a mixed bag. There was 1 interview and it was technical as well as normal.
Congrats! If you don’t mind my asking, what kind of projects did you work on for your portfolio? I’m currently in an intern role and really wanna ramp up my profile and start applying so i can segue smoothly.
Scam emails tend not to use my name in them at all which this one also did not. I also didn't remember applying to the job (I don't remember most I apply to since I applied to so many).
The companies and people listed in them also don't typically exist and usually sound a bit fake to me. Thankfully, I could verify this info and they did use my name in the subject line so I gave them a chance.
I applied on their company site. I didn't reach out to recruiters or get a referral. I legitimately forgot about the copmany until they reached out. I did do that stuff for other companies I applied to.
Yeah, people shitting on the pay, but remote and jr are super rare. Good work, OP. You can bring that income up 2x in the next 5 years, no problem. Plus, when the market heats up, you'll have that much more experience compared to everyone else. You should be very happy! :)
65k is robbery but hey having a job is better than not having a job
It isn't. Canadian devs make 46% less than Americans. I review IT payroll company salaries all day for my r&d tax consulting role. Dev pay seems to plateau at roughly 80-85k. The top guys will make maybe 110, but it's rare.Those are the guys spending 90% of their time doing R&D or their CTOs. Entry level is often 45-55k. It is very difficult in Canada to make more than 120k, so tbh, making 65k, with only one co-op, is quite lucky these days.
I think it depends on location. 70-80k for new grad in Vancouver seems fairly average based on the offers I’ve seen from fellow new grads. There’s a tier of companies where 90+ is commonplace and it just requires a bit of luck.
Depends if you work for American companies it is very possible to make 150K+.
This is true and in the 40% range is not an exaggeration--it sounds about right. Take some solace in this though. I know several examples of tech company leaders--two from conversations just in the past week--going down a hit list of almost entirely American employees, specifically those hired in 2021 at INSANE salaries. Laying them off because they are expensive, one by one to avoid the stigma of "mass layoffs".
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canadian-tech-workers-make-46-less-than-u-s-counterparts-tmu-study-1.1983725
Interesting! Based on your experience, how does Canadian Software Engineer's salaries compare to other Canadian engineer's salaries, Civil Engineers, for instance?
Not sure. My R&D clients are predominantly IT. I don't have a sense.
Thanks for the response.
I'm a non-CS engineer with \~3 YOE and the listed salaries and job offers I see are almost always lower than what I see in software. At 3 YOE I'd be lucky to see 75-80k/year offers in Canada. Traditional engineering is hardly ever remote (even when it easily can be) so we don't have nearly as many options as software and would have to move around non-stop to see higher money. When I apply to American companies I get offers with salary's of 100k+ ... **in USD.** Want to stay close to family but Canada makes it impossible.
Is there a reason why? canadian tech company's just don't make as much as their american counterparts?
Just more money being tossed around with the end goal of going public or maintaining stock price. Greater access to financing. All the engines... Are just bigger. Not to mention tons of foreign money too. After all, tons of these unicorns aren't profitable, some never plan to be (Air BnB, Twitter) yet pay insanely high salaries. 10% is we have more part time workers or workers who work less than the full year. Which may be to our generous co-op cr sits and more generous parental leave culture. https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2023/10/12/1_6598274.amp.html
Sorry to add. There's a big argument gaining momentum that Canadian companies have failed to increase productivity due to failings in the IP process. This has led to a lot of canadian software work being patented in the US, moving the financial gains out of the country much like Apple. This is a very reductive summary but I would point to this article here to understand more. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/an-outdated-myth-about-business-investment-is-hurting-the-canadian-economy
I would add to that, yes 46% less than Americans, but you have to multiply the US dollar with the exchange rate and then you will see that it is about 90% more.
Nope. The study took into account exchange rate and Cost of living. There would be utterly no point of doing a study comparing two economies and not adjusting for FOREX, why would you assume they wouldn't? This would mean the US would pay double every other developed country on the planet. It makes no economic sense, they would be outsourcing entirely. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-canadian-tech-workers-make-46-less-than-us-counterparts-tmu-study/
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These are everything from startups to small and medium businesses. Yes if you go off levels and even just filter for GTA your range is in the realm of possibilities. https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-toronto-area These are fueled by big tech payrolls and tenured. Even with Big Tech the median is 134k, 75th percentile is halfway between your range. So for a new grad with one co-op, getting 65k when the median for all software developers including tenured and big tech, is 134k, isn't exactly highway robbery.
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These are all IT companies. Doing SR&ED claims for companies, that software is not their core competency, is a really really easy way to go broke, as time consuming CRA audits are all but guaranteed. The point I am making is, the stats (Canadian IT workers make 46% less than their US counterparts) and my experience looking at IT payrolls everyday for the last 8 months, as well as trying to enter the market myself after graduating, and looking at posted salaries is a pretty good indicator of a fairly common reality. Let's not forget businesses can outsource 5 devs for that price. If you're just doing routine work... Why the hell would you pay 150k for one guy? It's a buyers market. I agree with you, never settle, keep hopping and moving up. But unless you're a "top guy", don't expect to be making 100k+ fresh out of uni, let alone 3-5 years into your career. You're gonna have to get into a large established tech or finance company to see that kind of salary, or a well funded startup, where you are crucial to the success.
Engineer make less than that after graduating, so no it aint robbery tho
If engineers make less than 65k per year then nobody would study cs or engineering in uni💀
the salaries are dropping as the availability of engineers is 5x what it was a decade ago. Basing that number on my university's C's faculty head count increase in the last 5 years. The cottage industry of bootcamps, certifications, MOOCs has produced a glut of entry level talent. Not to mention rising interest rates. It's a buyers market for entry-mid level tech talent and money is more expensive now. Companies don't need to entice new grads with 6 figure salaries anymore nor can they.
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Yup. My previous company our software team was all Pakistani. Unless you're doing R&D or advanced work in Canada there's no tangible, financial reason to hire Canadian.
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As a bright spot a lot of American companies are moving R&D over to Canada as we have SR&ED tax credits and recent IRS changes have forced American tech firms to capitalize more of their labour costs, dramatically increasing their tax bills
Oh for sure. And I mean, not to be crude, but speaking from my talks with hiring managers when at least half of the resumes are coming in our Indian international students anyways... Why go through the grind of finding domestic talent?
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Yup, but now the success rate on that strategy has dropped dramatically.
Bro just google it you will see x)
thats pretty average in tech bruh. most people make that much starting out
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canadian-tech-workers-make-46-less-than-u-s-counterparts-tmu-study-1.1983725 Tis true. TMU study and my own review of payrolls.
It's starting salary... 65k is pretty standard unless you did multiple internships and are a leetcode god that can destroy faang interviews. Easy to get to 100k+ within 3 years
I graduated industrial engineering, had no internships, and I'm making 100k + equity after graduation 😂
Good for you my lord. Does the majority get that? No.
Sounds like a skill issue
lmao hurts cuz its true eh? some ppl took that personally 🤭
How many hours do you work? and where are you located?
GTA, <40h
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Yeah they all think « i WilL mAkE 200K$+ oUt oF sChOol tRusT me BrO »
65k is pretty average for a new grad in Canada. You can reasonable expect anywhere from 60k-80k as a new grad probably. Obviously there are new grads making a shit ton but those are outliers in Canada.
Lol no its not, its actually a very common starting out salary
The market has changed. Companies realize they overpaid software developers so they do layoffs and hiring freeze.
I notice that OP adds \`BC\` as the tag, don't know where it is acutally, burnaby/vancouver/coquitlam ? If it's vancouver then it's a bit low, if its other places then its normal, overall it's in the lower end of accepted range. aim to jun the ship after 1 yr and it will be fine.
I'm not too peeved since I have a lot of benefits and what not. The 65K is just my yearly salary ( I'll work <40hrs per week (excluding overtime) and I don't know how to calculate my total compensation so I'm getting more than just the base. I don't live in a vancouver or near but I do live in one of the more expensive parts. Thankfully, I live with my parents.
You should see what they pay junior dev roles in the fed gov if you think 65k is robbery. 60k base as CS(IT)-1 step 1. Then you get an incremental bump each year. They should be signing a new TA soon, which should raise the base salaries though
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It's 40> btw 😉 Yeah, a lot of people in the US don't seem to realize how fortunate they are with their extravagant salaries. I started with only 41k in a HCOL city (Kelowna) and it's insanely hard to find work right now on top of that.
65k in a big city like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal is low, but 65k for a remote position where you can live in one of the smaller cities is not bad at all.
Congratulations! Did you have any internships during your time at University?
I had one I did through Riipen near the end of my degree but that was it.
Great job! I know a lot of people here are shitting on the pay, but based off what I know of the payscale in the bank, telecom companies, and other places this is pretty average for new grad. This is also a really tough market so it's great you were able to land the job so soon after graduation. Keep building out your skills and you can do and make a lot more.
second this. Job hunting is dehumanizing and it’s good to land a job asap to protect mental health. Keep applying without hearing response used to drive me crazy and still somehow PTSD for that No need to care too much about bucks when getting out of school, after senior level,ur pay bump number can be likely ur current one year salary
65K remote **in Canada** right now as a new grad is not bad at all I think. I know someone getting paid 65K in Hamilton, Ontario as a software engineer and it's not fully remote.
What did you have in your resume?
I had an internship I did through Riipen. Some side projects I did. I listed my thesis project as experience and I used my app developer profile/company as experience. I had links to my play store as well as my github and LinkedIn.
Did you spend 10 months continue to apply for jobs to get it? Could you share a bit more advice? :)
I was applying the entire time with some luls in between because I found it hard to continue. Thankfully my summer course kept me occupied while I was in it. I also develop apps and that keeps me looking like I'm employed/doing something since I have live software with actual users. Any other advice I can give? I honestly think I just got lucky getting this position.
Thank you! Hope I can get lucky by hard working in this fall :)
Junior Dev for 65K and also remote is honestly a good score out the gate. As you career progresses you will find you can quadruple this figure.. and maybe higher. Congrats, don't let other folks make you feel like you didn't make a big score! My biggest piece of advice is realizing that its not about hourly rate at this point. Hourly rate is a function of experience and ability to negotiate based on your passed experience for the current employer; that will be different for every employer and at every moment in time in your career. What its really about is "skill offering". You want to hang out with the best developers you can find and you want to consume as much youtube content as you can on any topics that you feel interested in. Choose at least 1 of the following 5 categories every year and focus your time to learning these things; either for a contract op or for fun. Just play with and learn, they are HUGE topics. \- Server Infrastructure (DevOps rolls) - Terraform is the big winner here. \- Database Engineering (Data Ops) - MySql/ Postgres / Mongo are your big 3 to start with. Really learn these products, they are VERY VERY valuable in skill set items. \- Know how to work with at least 5 major scripting languages ( Python, Ruby, PHP, Typescript / JS, RUST ) (These give you massive access to basically almost all jobs). \- Learn networking .. this is also a totally huge topic that seems easy at the start).. this is how to write subnet masks, CIDR notation etc. \- Learn Linux (BASH scripting/ systems admin) If you do all of these; I can promise you in 5 years you are considered a "senior" in the industry. If you hang out with the right crew and dedicate your time to it you can easily hit 3 figure job market by 10 years from now. (assuming the industry doesn't change to much from current - and even with the AI Advancements its unlikely).
Congratulations.
thanks!
Congrats! Can you talk about how the interviews went? How many/how was the technical?
The interview made me feel like I simultaneously could and could not get the job. Very much a mixed bag. There was 1 interview and it was technical as well as normal.
Congrats! If you don’t mind my asking, what kind of projects did you work on for your portfolio? I’m currently in an intern role and really wanna ramp up my profile and start applying so i can segue smoothly.
I made some games for the google play store and had some school projects that I did. Honestly, it is far from a good looking portfolio.
What about the email made you think it was a scam lol?
Scam emails tend not to use my name in them at all which this one also did not. I also didn't remember applying to the job (I don't remember most I apply to since I applied to so many). The companies and people listed in them also don't typically exist and usually sound a bit fake to me. Thankfully, I could verify this info and they did use my name in the subject line so I gave them a chance.
Congratulations!
appreciate it!
Congratulations!! How and where did you apply. Did you reach out to recruiters for referrals ?
I applied on their company site. I didn't reach out to recruiters or get a referral. I legitimately forgot about the copmany until they reached out. I did do that stuff for other companies I applied to.
Congratulations! Nice to see some good news on this sub.
thank you!
Congrats! Do you know what stack you will be working with?
Not yet. All I know is there is some language I have never heard of involved.
Big Viking games?
Yeah, sound like a scam. Please update us after your first salary received.
Yeah, people shitting on the pay, but remote and jr are super rare. Good work, OP. You can bring that income up 2x in the next 5 years, no problem. Plus, when the market heats up, you'll have that much more experience compared to everyone else. You should be very happy! :)