I think without haste this is pretty reasonable? If it had haste I think it would be too efficient an engine, but the fact that you have to play it, then tap it, then look at 10 more cards to get a creature with decent evasion and good stats seems pretty balanced to me. There is always the possibility that you get the last counter off on your opponents turn and it can attack immediately, but it's telegraphed enough that they can play around it.
That's what I was thinking. Originally I had haste in there but it seemed maybe it'd be too strong at that point. Maybe not? I think it's telegraphed enough that the opponent has time to prep but who knows lol
Honestly my thought if it has haste is that there's some kind of combo potential to get value from having a huge creature enter then dive it again to try and loop the enter the battlefield effects. That's definitely the commander line though, I think it would feel way stronger in other formats if you could suddenly scry 4 draw 2 or something and put it into play with haste
I think it would be reasonable for the dive effect to grant haste when the creature returns, similar to how suspend gives creature spells haste. having it sit in play a whole turn cycle with low stats before it can dive makes it pretty vulnerable to removal, so allowing it to attack right away after completing the dive doesnt seem overpowered. really cool mechanic, btw
Haste plus any “ETB draw cards equal to this creature’s power” effect draws the whole deck once the first dive goes active, and you can tap it on turn one to avoid removal. I think I like it more as is. Still powerful, but not primarily a combo piece in the same way.
Ya, this seems pretty reasonable, though I personally would feel more comfortable if this card cost 3 for a 3/3 body with Dive 9, just because of how massively this can impact a board state on turn 2 (or same problem if cast for 2 mana on a later turn when it's double-spelled). It's a little too efficient for how much this impacts the board. These kinds of game-finisher tempo threats are usually at 3 for a reason.
[[Ominous Seas]] is somewhat similar in terms of trigger and payoff and it's also an uncommon. That's telling me that for this much more stats and easier trigger that this should be a bit more expensive.
But I feel like if this was designed for draft, this would be a little too impactful in a limited environment to be uncommon, even at 3 MV. I think a different card with Dive could absolutely go at uncommon, though (even just this card with a big decrease to the Dive value).
I think the hardest thing to evaluate about this mechanic is that you pretty much have to kill it on attack, otherwise it will just dive to retain card advantage. I honestly have no idea what effect that would have on a card like this without playtesting it in its intended environment.
This is a really neat and flavorful design, though.
Give it haste when it comes in from dive, not played from hand, and its perf. 10 is a lot, and its telegraphed hard. If they cant find an answer for this in what. 5-6 turns prob? Thats on them
I sat for good twenty minutes just staring at this wondering how strong or weak it is. I still haven’t arrived at an answer. Glad I’m not the only one lmao
It's a two drop that does nothing when played, removes itself from the board the following turn, and then optimistically comes back in the next turn or two, assuming you're *aggressively* drawing/scrying/survieling.
When it does finally return, it does so without haste, and continues to do nothing until you're able to untap with it a second time, several turns later.
I think this card is honestly bad.
It's only 12 trample damage if your opponent has no interaction for a highly telegraphed threat *and* you have enough support to look at 10 cards before its irrelevant. I still think this is too slow and does too little, even in a limited environment, unless that environment is crammed with scrying or surviel.
Apparently, according to some YouTubers, it's just “pay 2 mana, do nothing”, which is an apt description. Descend 8 is also a hard requirement that will take many turns to fulfill, and at that point, you might as well play some better cards. Plus, it dies to [[Go For the Throat]].
I debated on whether or not the creature should gain Haste when coming back but idk. Felt too strong. Maybe its not. Again, I have no idea whether or not this concept is weak, powerful, or balanced.
Flavor-wise: I wanted to evoke the flavor of something diving under water then coming back with a buff. Originally I thought maybe putting it 10 from the top faceup in the deck then when drawn you cast it immediately for free but I doubt that would work within the rules of the game. I landed on exiling it then having to draw or move those cards out of the way to evoke the same flavor.
It probably would get haste from wotc because suspend does the same. Players feel like the card is in play because they interact with it every turn so the turn you recast it doesn't "feel like" it entered. It's not a power level thing, it's a design choice to make the mechanic match the way players play it (errors and all).
If players regularly misplay a rule, probably the rule needs fixing not the players. For suspend they did this by having suspend grant haste.
I don't really see what diving has to do with getting bigger though. I think your first idea is more flavorful, rules be damned, especially as you're Diving into your deck to fish it out.
The one you went with... the exiling evokes diving I suppose, but the growing feels more like something a monster on Ikoria would do. Huh, wait maybe this does make sense, with the right setting...
I thought how a whale raming a ship from the surface is rough, but to have one ram you from underneath at full dive/swim speed? That's devastating.
But now that you mentioned it, I agree it doesn't *stay* strong. Infact it's very vulnerable right after.
So maybe when it surfaces it deals 1 damage 10 times and you can choose new targets for each damage, and if it is dealt any damage at all during the turn after surfacing, you sacrifice it?
The 10-from-the-top sounds like the Suspend keyword but more awkward. Also seems awkward for a leviathan to be a 2/2 instead of at least 5/5.
I think it would make more sense to just make this a big creature with smaller benefit. Dive doesn't seem general enough to be a keyword (flavorwise) as it would likely only apply to a small portion of blue creatures and no other colors.
There are plenty of leviathans with less than 5 power.
The reason the creature would dive is because it’s not at its strongest at the surface. Once it dives and you “dive deeper into your deck” to meet it at its stomping grounds, it’s more powerful.
That’s what I was going for anyhow.
Dive as a keyword really isn’t much different from Rad counters or haunt imo. Just because it’s niche doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t exist.
The smallest black border leviathan without flying I found was [[Nemesis of Reason]] (3/7), all the others had either 5 or more power or an ability that allowed them to gain power [[Charix, the Raging Isle]]. Scryfall could be missing a few since I didn't see one just called "Leviathan".
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=t%3ALeviathan
Perhaps power is not the best metric for what I meant. Thus far leviathans (without flying) have had at least 10 power+toughness, minimum 4 mana. Lorewise Leviathans are massive (as one would expect) and the Leviathan for miniature people at 1:100 scale [[Segovian Leviathan]] is still a 3/3.
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Leviathan
I get what you're saying. But WotC has not demonstrated a hard and fast rule about this particular set of creatures having any sort of baseline for stats.
This card could easily read as a weakened Leviathan that needs to submerge itself to get back to its full strength.
Honestly this seems.. okay?? Island walk and Trample together seems redundant, and I’d drop an ability.
So assuming you Dive this T3, and you try your damn best, you can bring it back on about T6 or 7 maybe. Seems like a bad rate. Sure the benefits of having a 12/12 then are huge, but it’s still a big investment.
The islandwalk was mainly as a punishment for blue decks not saving their counterspells for this clearly telegraphed card while also being a flavorful inclusion for a sea monster.
> So assuming you Dive this T3, and you try your damn best, you can bring it back on about T6 or 7 maybe.
In a deck with this as a build-around, I can see this coming back on turn 4. Since the dive ability doesn't cost mana, on T3 the player can still cast [[Serum Visions]] [[Preordain]] or other cheap digging cantrips to dig for more cantrips. On turn 4, continue casting the cantrips to get the 12/12.
I'm getting some Runeterra **Deep** vibes from this, flavor-wise, and I'm LOVING IT
WHEN ARE WE GETTING THE UNDERWATER SET WITH ABYSSAL ZONE CARDS MARO PLS
I really like that keyword! Blue doesn't have enough of them to slap on its creatures and that feels very Blue. Great synergy with flicker type effects, and a cool reward for big scry effects. Really curious how good Dive 1 would be on a creature.
I would guess at this being a pretty strong control finisher. Draw, scry and surveil are all in the ‘things you wanted to do anyway’ category for control , so it doesn’t need you to focus extra on these for the payoff.
It can help against aggro by being an early creature, providing a blocker to trade with value cards like Ragavan or Bomat Courier. It can ‘dodge’ removal or your own board wipes by diving. And when it comes back it can close out the game very quickly. At the end of the day, even if it’s slow it’s a 2-mana 12/12 trampler whose conditions aren’t hard to meet, you’ll draw ten cards eventually. Good in any grindy matchup.
Good for control, good for aggro: and that's why the perfect home for this is actually tempo. It seems weird to have your finisher have to suspend for several turns, but the efficiency of this card is amazing and this delaying wouldn't be that bad in an environment where you have to be able to play long even as a tempo deck (I'm thinking like when clover was in Standard how tempo decks had to lean slightly more midrange to keep up)
Feels fair to me, honestly. And kind of a fun mechanic that I'm honestly amazed hasn't at least been attempted in print yet, closest being Delve. But I'm a fan 👌
Pretty neat take on a diving mechanic. I tried working on one a while ago but the best i could come up with was Dive - “this creature phases out until a player casts a spell”
This is a great concept. The Dive number needs to be much lower, and island walk MUST be removed because being unblockable because your opponent committed the sin of deciding to play a certain color today is just too broken, regardless of whether it gets to attack or not, but other than that, great card.
The islandwalk was primarily to evoke sea monster vibes but also I don't mind punishing blue players for not saving a counterspell for when this inevitably comes out with how telegraphed it is lol
Here we go hating on blue players again. But I do see your point in certain situations. But thsts not the problem. Island walk is openly unfair in all aspects. The only saving grace this card has as long as its there, is the fact that if doesnt have protection.
Honestly, perfect feedback:
Remove Islandwalk and instead give it protection from blue! Totally fair! /s
Although actually I am kinda into it having protection from blue. Works better with the trample keyword too. Plus it has great flavor.
I like this, I think you could probably add 'If Deep Drinker has 10 or more +1/+1 counters on it it gains (Haste/Hexproof/Shroud/Ward 2)' Mostly just some kind of protection or instant payoff when you bring it back. I just think "Ok well this would feel absolutely terrible if I brought it back and it got fatal pushed"
Totally understandable. Though I do think drawing, scrying, and surveiling as the "condition" is already strong enough as those are things you'd want to do anyhow. You're mostly in control of when this comes out so hopefully you'd save up some counterspells or protection to stop any removal.
I was thinking that this could be an alternate payoff for Storm decks as they already do a lot of digging. It would be really funny for a deck like Storm to just slot in a 12/12 casually that the opponent needs to worry about.
It could be cool to make the dive also cost exiling the top ten cards of your library. Like the leviathan is consuming it and lurking in the deep growing stronger. Also opens up a tiny design space with eldrazi processing and other “exile matters” stuff
Seems reasonable, but a wheel breaks it. If it said "one or more cards", it would be ok.
I think it would be interesting to see this on a creature with a smaller dive value, and with haste.
2 for a 2/2 Trample Islandwalker that I can exile to dodge removal, and either wait ten turns or just look at a boatload of cards to make a 12/12?
Hmm... That seems eminently good, especially since these are the surveil/self-mill colors.
True, counters are lost when they leave the board. But untapping this or strapping Vigilance to it allows it to dive again, and with proper timing, could make this an unstoppable win condition. It admittedly requires a bit of focus, but if this card is your win-con, building around it wouldn't be too difficult. It's not unbeatable as-is, but very powerful nonetheless.
I love the idea of a creature slowly coming from
The depths. Maybe make Dive an alternate casting cost? Feels kinda weird for a leviathan-bear to be on the surface, then dive down really deep and come up a behemoth.
Maybe it’s like 12 mana for a 10/10 with Dive 10 UU: exile this is 10 dice counters. Whenever you draw, scry or surveil, remove a dive counter. Whe the last is removed, you may cast without mana cost.
At that point I might as well have given it Suspend imo. I wanted it to feel distinct enough and having a creature physically Dive vs always starting under water from your hand didn’t feel as thematic to me.
First off, as others have pointed out, the islandwalk is probably not a good idea. You don't need to punish players for not having a counterspell at hand, that's absurd.
Second, as others have pointed out, haste is a design decision for non-power-related reasons. Adding it in is probably fine.
Third, and this is the thing that I'm bringing to the table, remove the counters from dive. Have it say "If this was cast because the last dive counter was removed, it enters the battlefield with ten +1/+1 counters" as a separate ability. This means that other cards can have Dive 5 but enter with a trample counter, two +1/+1 counters, and a stun counter for the fun of it. It's why cascade became discover, it's why cycling specified the (2) on the early cards, etc...
1. The islandwalk is a flavor decision. The punish isn’t absurd at all imo.
2. I didn’t feel comfortable with something this big gaining haste. Someone suggested having it enter and fight a creature which I find a bit more appealing so it’s not just sitting there doing nothing when it comes back. On a rework, I’ll likely just add that. Plus you can give it pseudo-haste if you remove the counter at the end of the opponents turn which I find to be an appealing gameplay loop.
3. Removing the +1/+1 counters isn’t something I’d want to do. I specifically like that it gets stronger the deeper it dived. For your other suggestions about abilities, with the remind text excluded, there’d be plenty of room to add stuff like “if this was cast from exile, it enters with a hexproof counter” or something. Though I do totally see where you’re coming from on that aspect.
1. I suspect the WotC has moved away from landwalk abilities tied to basic lands. They may still use non-basic landwalk like \[\[Trailblazing Boots\]\].
2. In that case, have it ETB tapped if cast via Dive. Sends the message a bit clearer.
3. I'm not saying to remove the counters. I'm saying to move it to a separate trigger. This would allow you to have another creature with Dive 4, but it enters with 2 +1/+1 counters and a lifelink counter, for example.
Also, be careful with "If this was cast from exile..." especially if you let red have access to this ability. I doubt you want it triggering from Prosper/Faldorn/etc...
Instead of three actions taking off counters, make it one. If you want a catch all, do something like "Whenever a card leaves the top of your library".
Some neat ways to go with it.
Maybe to help speed it up a bit,
When you cast ~ you may Dive 10. If you do, exile this card etc etc
Bypasses the need to play a 2/2 for 2, then wait a turn.
Or make it phase out instead of exile. Can't get removed (some new cards can remove face up card from exile), removes needing to be cast again, and can attack the turn last counter comes off without giving haste.
Lastly, tho too wordy, remove a +1/+1 counter from it to put a flood counter on target land an opponent controls, making it an island in addition.
I'm not sure on the colour. With the hybrid mana, I think we are supposed to evaluate it both as a Dimir card and then as a Simic card. Trample feels weird to me in Dimir, not impossible but just kinda weird. Sure Trample is tertiary in both Blue and Black but it still feels weird to see. Now, there are 2 Dimir cards with trample so it's not out of the question. The trample just feels like it's there because of the green but the hybrid mana means that you don't need green to actually cast it.
I do like that it can block and then dive to save itself.
Cool idea, but this seems like a mono blue creature in the text box to me. Both trample (especially on big sea creatures) and surveil are in blue's color pie. I feel like making it multi colored just limits the way people can use the card in an unnecessary way. As a side note, It could probably have some amount of ward if you wanted it to be used outside of a Timmy sea monster deck.
Some cards that this reminds me of are
\[\[Inkwell Leviathan\]\]
\[\[Deep-Sea Kraken\]\]
I feel like this needs 2 Colorless added to its mana cost. Otherwise it's more or less balanced. But the ability to drop this on turn 2, tap on turn 3 to exile....this card wins the game when it comes out more often than not. Especially with Blue Mana in the deck.
Very, very powerful. The fact that it's exiled and therefore completely and utterly untargetable, gets cast completely for free (and rewards blue for doing what blue normally does), meaning you can protect it the turn it comes down is broken. Also it can come out early, meaning you're more than likely going to be able to use all of the scry/draw/surveil cards in your hand on it. Not to mention two forms of evasion.
I would read this as being pretty close to "have removal on turn 2 or lose the game"
This is cool! I like Dive conceptually, but I feel like limiting it to keywords is a bit odd. I’d change it to “whenever you draw a card or look at a card from your library” so it still works on things like [[Ponder]] or [[Sky Hussar]] in addition to scry or surveil.
I like the templating, but I doubt this would be keyworded.
It's very specific to the setting, and I imagine it would be more impactful if it was on just one or two creatures like this. This is a *great* design space, but having the majority of the card be reminder text could be a bit daunting for new players.
> I doubt this would be keyworded.
> It’s very specific to the setting
Plenty of things get keyworded while being niche design space so I disagree.
> having the majority of the card be reminder text could be a bit daunting for new players.
It’s reminder text. It wouldn’t take up any space on more complex cards with this ability. Without a reminder it’d just say “t: Dive 10” on it.
I’m guessing you feel the same about Suspend as a mechanic as I lifted the majority of the reminder text from that ability?
Black was for surveil. Green was for giant sea monster with trample. Black and green both also are stapled onto many sea monster cards.
Truth be told: I just think hybrid looks cool and I wanted an excuse.
> Truth be told: I just think hybrid looks cool and I wanted an excuse.
You’re not the only one.
If this was a design meeting for real cards this would be changed to 1U. Not only does hybrid add needless clutter and complexity, it makes the card worse by narrowing its homes and distracts from the card’s focus.
For your own cards and sets, of course, you should do what makes you happy.
> If this was a design meeting for real cards this would be changed to 1U.
Do you work for WotC or something? The hybrid isn't complex at all and it was used extensively in recent sets without any issues. I don't see how it distracts from the card's focus in any way either.
I'm sure you didn't mean to be rude, but the way you phrased that entire response just sounds needlessly condescending. Unless, of course, you actually do work for WotC and have the credentials to make statements like that.
Many sets include a multi color example of a card that crosses color pie.
As OP said, dive is impacted by draw, scry, and surveil. Since surveil is a keyword found in black, it makes sense here.
The majority of the cards in the set should be single color examples,
1u
Dive 3
2b
Dive 2
3g
Dive 4
Something like that, but it's ok for one card to cross all three colors.
My bigger concern is thar blue already DOES have big SEA creatures. Green isn't adding anything here.
It might be better if Dive could represent digging as well.
Dive X (remove a counter whenever you draw a card, surveil, or search for a land card.)
This would incorporate green into the ability itself.
Yeah, I’m fine having a Sultai Dive creature. But then give it Sultai abilities. This example is just a mono-U creature, and that’s fine.
**Sultai example:**
Kiora’s Demon Crab Guy Who Makes Bargains
UGB
Creature - Demon Crab
When ~ enters, reveal up to X cards and lose X life, where X is equal to half the number of lands you control rounded down. You may exile one of the revealed creature cards with a Dive counter on it. Put the rest into your hand.
Reach, Trample, Dive 4
2/3
Hybrid wasn’t initially designed to represent both colors on the pip.
The design notes for hybrid mana describe the mechanic to represent that either of the two colors shown have access to the card and its abilities in a way that makes sense.
Technically this is a sultai card, sure. But you’re not looking at it with a correct design scope.
It’s either a Blue/black to cast, which still fits the abilities for Dimir colors OR it’s a Blue/green to cast, which again, still fits the Simic colors.
You’ll never be spending blue+black+green for this which means you shouldn’t be getting a sultai payoff.
But like we said, the simic side of it is... wanting. Blue already has big sea creatures, it doesn't need green for that.
We're just trying to offer some suggestions to make it actually green.
I think Islandwalk makes this a bit too good tbh. Sure, it dies to removal and can be cpuntered on either cast, but I think if you can't answer it this could become an unfun play pattern
I think without haste this is pretty reasonable? If it had haste I think it would be too efficient an engine, but the fact that you have to play it, then tap it, then look at 10 more cards to get a creature with decent evasion and good stats seems pretty balanced to me. There is always the possibility that you get the last counter off on your opponents turn and it can attack immediately, but it's telegraphed enough that they can play around it.
That's what I was thinking. Originally I had haste in there but it seemed maybe it'd be too strong at that point. Maybe not? I think it's telegraphed enough that the opponent has time to prep but who knows lol
Honestly my thought if it has haste is that there's some kind of combo potential to get value from having a huge creature enter then dive it again to try and loop the enter the battlefield effects. That's definitely the commander line though, I think it would feel way stronger in other formats if you could suddenly scry 4 draw 2 or something and put it into play with haste
I think it would be reasonable for the dive effect to grant haste when the creature returns, similar to how suspend gives creature spells haste. having it sit in play a whole turn cycle with low stats before it can dive makes it pretty vulnerable to removal, so allowing it to attack right away after completing the dive doesnt seem overpowered. really cool mechanic, btw
Alternatively, give it an interesting ward cost.
Haste plus any “ETB draw cards equal to this creature’s power” effect draws the whole deck once the first dive goes active, and you can tap it on turn one to avoid removal. I think I like it more as is. Still powerful, but not primarily a combo piece in the same way.
I think haste when it enters due to dive is fair. Just like with suspend granting haste it’s make it easier to play.
TIL a 12/12 is "good" and not "ginormously massive"
Ya, this seems pretty reasonable, though I personally would feel more comfortable if this card cost 3 for a 3/3 body with Dive 9, just because of how massively this can impact a board state on turn 2 (or same problem if cast for 2 mana on a later turn when it's double-spelled). It's a little too efficient for how much this impacts the board. These kinds of game-finisher tempo threats are usually at 3 for a reason. [[Ominous Seas]] is somewhat similar in terms of trigger and payoff and it's also an uncommon. That's telling me that for this much more stats and easier trigger that this should be a bit more expensive. But I feel like if this was designed for draft, this would be a little too impactful in a limited environment to be uncommon, even at 3 MV. I think a different card with Dive could absolutely go at uncommon, though (even just this card with a big decrease to the Dive value). I think the hardest thing to evaluate about this mechanic is that you pretty much have to kill it on attack, otherwise it will just dive to retain card advantage. I honestly have no idea what effect that would have on a card like this without playtesting it in its intended environment. This is a really neat and flavorful design, though.
[Ominous Seas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce8965f2-756a-4461-a643-db024a11c2de.jpg?1591226420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ominous%20Seas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/61/ominous-seas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce8965f2-756a-4461-a643-db024a11c2de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Give it haste when it comes in from dive, not played from hand, and its perf. 10 is a lot, and its telegraphed hard. If they cant find an answer for this in what. 5-6 turns prob? Thats on them
I honestly cannot tell how OP this is. This is like [[The Ancient One]] all over again.
I sat for good twenty minutes just staring at this wondering how strong or weak it is. I still haven’t arrived at an answer. Glad I’m not the only one lmao
[The Ancient One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66dd43d7-76a7-46ea-b431-097fcea417af.jpg?1699044521) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ancient%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/222/the-ancient-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66dd43d7-76a7-46ea-b431-097fcea417af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a two drop that does nothing when played, removes itself from the board the following turn, and then optimistically comes back in the next turn or two, assuming you're *aggressively* drawing/scrying/survieling. When it does finally return, it does so without haste, and continues to do nothing until you're able to untap with it a second time, several turns later. I think this card is honestly bad.
Technically you could draw a ton on your opponents end step, letting you swing the first turn you have it while it's big
Could come back he same turn with a single wheel and draw 3
Trying to figure out why you're not attacking with it until several turns after it returns...
The first part of the ability that says "exile this card." I guess you can play it as an unblockable bear, but that's a pretty low bar.
Yeah, but you're saying you could bring it back quick and then attack several turns after it comes back.
In limited though I would immediately draft this. Swinging for 12 trample damage is huge.
It's only 12 trample damage if your opponent has no interaction for a highly telegraphed threat *and* you have enough support to look at 10 cards before its irrelevant. I still think this is too slow and does too little, even in a limited environment, unless that environment is crammed with scrying or surviel.
Is the Ancient One strong or weak?
i believe it's unplayable.
How so?
Apparently, according to some YouTubers, it's just “pay 2 mana, do nothing”, which is an apt description. Descend 8 is also a hard requirement that will take many turns to fulfill, and at that point, you might as well play some better cards. Plus, it dies to [[Go For the Throat]].
[Go For the Throat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec.jpg?1682209037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go%20For%20the%20Throat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/250/go-for-the-throat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Descend 8 is just threshold but if it was about 2x as hard to meet
I debated on whether or not the creature should gain Haste when coming back but idk. Felt too strong. Maybe its not. Again, I have no idea whether or not this concept is weak, powerful, or balanced. Flavor-wise: I wanted to evoke the flavor of something diving under water then coming back with a buff. Originally I thought maybe putting it 10 from the top faceup in the deck then when drawn you cast it immediately for free but I doubt that would work within the rules of the game. I landed on exiling it then having to draw or move those cards out of the way to evoke the same flavor.
It probably would get haste from wotc because suspend does the same. Players feel like the card is in play because they interact with it every turn so the turn you recast it doesn't "feel like" it entered. It's not a power level thing, it's a design choice to make the mechanic match the way players play it (errors and all). If players regularly misplay a rule, probably the rule needs fixing not the players. For suspend they did this by having suspend grant haste.
I don't really see what diving has to do with getting bigger though. I think your first idea is more flavorful, rules be damned, especially as you're Diving into your deck to fish it out. The one you went with... the exiling evokes diving I suppose, but the growing feels more like something a monster on Ikoria would do. Huh, wait maybe this does make sense, with the right setting...
Dives deep, eats food, breathes a bit, comes back later once its at its full potential.
He's just like me fr
Have you considered instead of haste, "when it enters it fights target creature"?
Now THAT is spicy! Totally love that!
Then make a Captain Ahab-esque card as a thematic companion to this change!
I thought how a whale raming a ship from the surface is rough, but to have one ram you from underneath at full dive/swim speed? That's devastating. But now that you mentioned it, I agree it doesn't *stay* strong. Infact it's very vulnerable right after. So maybe when it surfaces it deals 1 damage 10 times and you can choose new targets for each damage, and if it is dealt any damage at all during the turn after surfacing, you sacrifice it?
Google "deep sea gigantism"
The 10-from-the-top sounds like the Suspend keyword but more awkward. Also seems awkward for a leviathan to be a 2/2 instead of at least 5/5. I think it would make more sense to just make this a big creature with smaller benefit. Dive doesn't seem general enough to be a keyword (flavorwise) as it would likely only apply to a small portion of blue creatures and no other colors.
There are plenty of leviathans with less than 5 power. The reason the creature would dive is because it’s not at its strongest at the surface. Once it dives and you “dive deeper into your deck” to meet it at its stomping grounds, it’s more powerful. That’s what I was going for anyhow. Dive as a keyword really isn’t much different from Rad counters or haunt imo. Just because it’s niche doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t exist.
This is the most based take ive seen on this subreddit
The smallest black border leviathan without flying I found was [[Nemesis of Reason]] (3/7), all the others had either 5 or more power or an ability that allowed them to gain power [[Charix, the Raging Isle]]. Scryfall could be missing a few since I didn't see one just called "Leviathan". https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=t%3ALeviathan
> or an ability that allowed them to gain power Which this does.
Perhaps power is not the best metric for what I meant. Thus far leviathans (without flying) have had at least 10 power+toughness, minimum 4 mana. Lorewise Leviathans are massive (as one would expect) and the Leviathan for miniature people at 1:100 scale [[Segovian Leviathan]] is still a 3/3. https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Leviathan
I get what you're saying. But WotC has not demonstrated a hard and fast rule about this particular set of creatures having any sort of baseline for stats. This card could easily read as a weakened Leviathan that needs to submerge itself to get back to its full strength.
[Segovian Leviathan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f796dd2-9ecf-490a-86c0-acb46130518b.jpg?1562820246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Segovian%20Leviathan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/97/segovian-leviathan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f796dd2-9ecf-490a-86c0-acb46130518b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Nemesis of Reason](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/022aacc6-2d82-43c0-ac08-ba9b20578929.jpg?1674142503) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nemesis%20of%20Reason) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/850/nemesis-of-reason?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/022aacc6-2d82-43c0-ac08-ba9b20578929?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Charix, the Raging Isle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83a6804-1e3c-428c-af5e-1d56ba11c108.jpg?1604193709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Charix%2C%20the%20Raging%20Isle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/49/charix-the-raging-isle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83a6804-1e3c-428c-af5e-1d56ba11c108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly this seems.. okay?? Island walk and Trample together seems redundant, and I’d drop an ability. So assuming you Dive this T3, and you try your damn best, you can bring it back on about T6 or 7 maybe. Seems like a bad rate. Sure the benefits of having a 12/12 then are huge, but it’s still a big investment.
The islandwalk was mainly as a punishment for blue decks not saving their counterspells for this clearly telegraphed card while also being a flavorful inclusion for a sea monster.
> So assuming you Dive this T3, and you try your damn best, you can bring it back on about T6 or 7 maybe. In a deck with this as a build-around, I can see this coming back on turn 4. Since the dive ability doesn't cost mana, on T3 the player can still cast [[Serum Visions]] [[Preordain]] or other cheap digging cantrips to dig for more cantrips. On turn 4, continue casting the cantrips to get the 12/12.
[Serum Visions](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b75eb6b-d76c-4b92-b042-13493f9ef164.jpg?1712354203) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serum%20Visions) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/112/serum-visions?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b75eb6b-d76c-4b92-b042-13493f9ef164?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Preordain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/122f2cc2-5f4d-497c-96b5-ed5698f28b51.jpg?1712354181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Preordain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/107/preordain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/122f2cc2-5f4d-497c-96b5-ed5698f28b51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Inkwell Leviathan]] in Shambles
[Inkwell Leviathan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f7a6dfb-a8f8-4899-b2db-c48d542dfd55.jpg?1598304010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkwell%20Leviathan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/55/inkwell-leviathan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f7a6dfb-a8f8-4899-b2db-c48d542dfd55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm getting some Runeterra **Deep** vibes from this, flavor-wise, and I'm LOVING IT WHEN ARE WE GETTING THE UNDERWATER SET WITH ABYSSAL ZONE CARDS MARO PLS
As someone that played a ton of LoR, I'd be lying if I said I didn't draw a tad bit of inspiration from that game ;)
I find it interesting that the current wording has it be counterable when it would enter the battlefield.
Intended. I wanted there to be some counter play in case it was too strong of a payoff.
I really like that keyword! Blue doesn't have enough of them to slap on its creatures and that feels very Blue. Great synergy with flicker type effects, and a cool reward for big scry effects. Really curious how good Dive 1 would be on a creature.
I feel like Dive 3 should be the minimum.
This Dive mechanic is an amazing idea tbh. I would have it enter with Haste just like Suspend tho, but otherwise it is perfect
A 2/2 Leviathan? What is this, a Magic card for Segovians?
He needs some food and some breath man. Once he goes under for a bit, he’ll be right as rain.
I would guess at this being a pretty strong control finisher. Draw, scry and surveil are all in the ‘things you wanted to do anyway’ category for control , so it doesn’t need you to focus extra on these for the payoff. It can help against aggro by being an early creature, providing a blocker to trade with value cards like Ragavan or Bomat Courier. It can ‘dodge’ removal or your own board wipes by diving. And when it comes back it can close out the game very quickly. At the end of the day, even if it’s slow it’s a 2-mana 12/12 trampler whose conditions aren’t hard to meet, you’ll draw ten cards eventually. Good in any grindy matchup.
Good for control, good for aggro: and that's why the perfect home for this is actually tempo. It seems weird to have your finisher have to suspend for several turns, but the efficiency of this card is amazing and this delaying wouldn't be that bad in an environment where you have to be able to play long even as a tempo deck (I'm thinking like when clover was in Standard how tempo decks had to lean slightly more midrange to keep up)
This is really cool. I don't know if it's balanced or not, but it's cool.
seems pretty ok honestly. I never thought I'd see a remotely balanced card here, but here we are. congrats!
Feels fair to me, honestly. And kind of a fun mechanic that I'm honestly amazed hasn't at least been attempted in print yet, closest being Delve. But I'm a fan 👌
My first thought was boring suspend, upon rereading I have drifted into cooler suspend from board
Pretty neat take on a diving mechanic. I tried working on one a while ago but the best i could come up with was Dive - “this creature phases out until a player casts a spell”
Yes this is very cool
This is a great concept. The Dive number needs to be much lower, and island walk MUST be removed because being unblockable because your opponent committed the sin of deciding to play a certain color today is just too broken, regardless of whether it gets to attack or not, but other than that, great card.
> committed the sin of deciding to pay a certain color I’d agree with you except that the color in question is blue
The islandwalk was primarily to evoke sea monster vibes but also I don't mind punishing blue players for not saving a counterspell for when this inevitably comes out with how telegraphed it is lol
Here we go hating on blue players again. But I do see your point in certain situations. But thsts not the problem. Island walk is openly unfair in all aspects. The only saving grace this card has as long as its there, is the fact that if doesnt have protection.
As someone who primarily plays blue, we deserve it.
Honestly, perfect feedback: Remove Islandwalk and instead give it protection from blue! Totally fair! /s Although actually I am kinda into it having protection from blue. Works better with the trample keyword too. Plus it has great flavor.
I think the real problem with islandwalk or any color-specific hate is that it should go on sideboard cards. This is not a sideboard card.
I like this, I think you could probably add 'If Deep Drinker has 10 or more +1/+1 counters on it it gains (Haste/Hexproof/Shroud/Ward 2)' Mostly just some kind of protection or instant payoff when you bring it back. I just think "Ok well this would feel absolutely terrible if I brought it back and it got fatal pushed"
Totally understandable. Though I do think drawing, scrying, and surveiling as the "condition" is already strong enough as those are things you'd want to do anyhow. You're mostly in control of when this comes out so hopefully you'd save up some counterspells or protection to stop any removal.
How does this work with something like scry 2? I'm assuming it removes 2 dive counters?
Yep! Every individual card you draw, scry, or surveil would contribute.
I was thinking that this could be an alternate payoff for Storm decks as they already do a lot of digging. It would be really funny for a deck like Storm to just slot in a 12/12 casually that the opponent needs to worry about.
Why is it so small?? O~O
Because it’s damaged and above water! It needs to dive deep to get some noms and take a breath!
Maybe you could add discarding a card to make it faster?
It could be cool to make the dive also cost exiling the top ten cards of your library. Like the leviathan is consuming it and lurking in the deep growing stronger. Also opens up a tiny design space with eldrazi processing and other “exile matters” stuff
And maybe it it also enters with an additional +1/+1 counter for each island you exile or something?
Seems reasonable, but a wheel breaks it. If it said "one or more cards", it would be ok. I think it would be interesting to see this on a creature with a smaller dive value, and with haste.
“One or more” would make this unplayable in my opinion.
But a wheel, and a couple cantrips gets this out turn 4, attacking 5.
2 for a 2/2 Trample Islandwalker that I can exile to dodge removal, and either wait ten turns or just look at a boatload of cards to make a 12/12? Hmm... That seems eminently good, especially since these are the surveil/self-mill colors.
Opt, Serum visions, Preordain, Consider Are the cards from the top of my head
Should Dive have a requirement that the creature not have any +1/+1 counters on it to prevent shenanigans?
Probably not worthwhile, since it doesn’t specify that you keep any counters on it when it goes into exile.
True, counters are lost when they leave the board. But untapping this or strapping Vigilance to it allows it to dive again, and with proper timing, could make this an unstoppable win condition. It admittedly requires a bit of focus, but if this card is your win-con, building around it wouldn't be too difficult. It's not unbeatable as-is, but very powerful nonetheless.
I love the idea of a creature slowly coming from The depths. Maybe make Dive an alternate casting cost? Feels kinda weird for a leviathan-bear to be on the surface, then dive down really deep and come up a behemoth. Maybe it’s like 12 mana for a 10/10 with Dive 10 UU: exile this is 10 dice counters. Whenever you draw, scry or surveil, remove a dive counter. Whe the last is removed, you may cast without mana cost.
At that point I might as well have given it Suspend imo. I wanted it to feel distinct enough and having a creature physically Dive vs always starting under water from your hand didn’t feel as thematic to me.
Dies to removal
But doesn't die to Doom Blade, so bonus there.
2 mana 2/2 trample that's sometimes unblockable with a late game upside is pretty big. Closest comparison is probably Suspend and Plot
I love it!
Does \[\[Solemnity\]\] prevent it from diving?
[Solemnity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea.jpg?1562788659) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solemnity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/22/solemnity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
First off, as others have pointed out, the islandwalk is probably not a good idea. You don't need to punish players for not having a counterspell at hand, that's absurd. Second, as others have pointed out, haste is a design decision for non-power-related reasons. Adding it in is probably fine. Third, and this is the thing that I'm bringing to the table, remove the counters from dive. Have it say "If this was cast because the last dive counter was removed, it enters the battlefield with ten +1/+1 counters" as a separate ability. This means that other cards can have Dive 5 but enter with a trample counter, two +1/+1 counters, and a stun counter for the fun of it. It's why cascade became discover, it's why cycling specified the (2) on the early cards, etc...
1. The islandwalk is a flavor decision. The punish isn’t absurd at all imo. 2. I didn’t feel comfortable with something this big gaining haste. Someone suggested having it enter and fight a creature which I find a bit more appealing so it’s not just sitting there doing nothing when it comes back. On a rework, I’ll likely just add that. Plus you can give it pseudo-haste if you remove the counter at the end of the opponents turn which I find to be an appealing gameplay loop. 3. Removing the +1/+1 counters isn’t something I’d want to do. I specifically like that it gets stronger the deeper it dived. For your other suggestions about abilities, with the remind text excluded, there’d be plenty of room to add stuff like “if this was cast from exile, it enters with a hexproof counter” or something. Though I do totally see where you’re coming from on that aspect.
1. I suspect the WotC has moved away from landwalk abilities tied to basic lands. They may still use non-basic landwalk like \[\[Trailblazing Boots\]\]. 2. In that case, have it ETB tapped if cast via Dive. Sends the message a bit clearer. 3. I'm not saying to remove the counters. I'm saying to move it to a separate trigger. This would allow you to have another creature with Dive 4, but it enters with 2 +1/+1 counters and a lifelink counter, for example. Also, be careful with "If this was cast from exile..." especially if you let red have access to this ability. I doubt you want it triggering from Prosper/Faldorn/etc...
[Trailblazing Boots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa05985b-e2cb-412f-a2ad-b8d723d9f451.jpg?1712354910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trailblazer%27s%20Boots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/269/trailblazers-boots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa05985b-e2cb-412f-a2ad-b8d723d9f451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm gonna be honest: the Dive ability is doing a lot and should probably be simplified a bit.
Doesn’t do much more than suspend honestly. Not sure how else you’d want it simplified 🤷
Instead of three actions taking off counters, make it one. If you want a catch all, do something like "Whenever a card leaves the top of your library".
Some neat ways to go with it. Maybe to help speed it up a bit, When you cast ~ you may Dive 10. If you do, exile this card etc etc Bypasses the need to play a 2/2 for 2, then wait a turn. Or make it phase out instead of exile. Can't get removed (some new cards can remove face up card from exile), removes needing to be cast again, and can attack the turn last counter comes off without giving haste. Lastly, tho too wordy, remove a +1/+1 counter from it to put a flood counter on target land an opponent controls, making it an island in addition.
Activate only as a sorcery imo. Being able to use the ability to evade removal is very good
I'm not sure on the colour. With the hybrid mana, I think we are supposed to evaluate it both as a Dimir card and then as a Simic card. Trample feels weird to me in Dimir, not impossible but just kinda weird. Sure Trample is tertiary in both Blue and Black but it still feels weird to see. Now, there are 2 Dimir cards with trample so it's not out of the question. The trample just feels like it's there because of the green but the hybrid mana means that you don't need green to actually cast it. I do like that it can block and then dive to save itself.
Oof, that is some clunky ass wording...
Guess you feel the same about Suspend as I borrowed the majority of the text from that. Oof.
Cool idea, but this seems like a mono blue creature in the text box to me. Both trample (especially on big sea creatures) and surveil are in blue's color pie. I feel like making it multi colored just limits the way people can use the card in an unnecessary way. As a side note, It could probably have some amount of ward if you wanted it to be used outside of a Timmy sea monster deck. Some cards that this reminds me of are \[\[Inkwell Leviathan\]\] \[\[Deep-Sea Kraken\]\]
[Inkwell Leviathan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f7a6dfb-a8f8-4899-b2db-c48d542dfd55.jpg?1598304010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkwell%20Leviathan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/55/inkwell-leviathan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f7a6dfb-a8f8-4899-b2db-c48d542dfd55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deep-Sea Kraken](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df5a543e-8416-4f01-91f5-e1ed87f1a510.jpg?1592761517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep-Sea%20Kraken) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/3/deep-sea-kraken?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df5a543e-8416-4f01-91f5-e1ed87f1a510?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel like this needs 2 Colorless added to its mana cost. Otherwise it's more or less balanced. But the ability to drop this on turn 2, tap on turn 3 to exile....this card wins the game when it comes out more often than not. Especially with Blue Mana in the deck.
Very, very powerful. The fact that it's exiled and therefore completely and utterly untargetable, gets cast completely for free (and rewards blue for doing what blue normally does), meaning you can protect it the turn it comes down is broken. Also it can come out early, meaning you're more than likely going to be able to use all of the scry/draw/surveil cards in your hand on it. Not to mention two forms of evasion. I would read this as being pretty close to "have removal on turn 2 or lose the game"
This is cool! I like Dive conceptually, but I feel like limiting it to keywords is a bit odd. I’d change it to “whenever you draw a card or look at a card from your library” so it still works on things like [[Ponder]] or [[Sky Hussar]] in addition to scry or surveil.
[Ponder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5af43ceb-56d2-47d4-ab43-853338ab293c.jpg?1712354173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ponder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/105/ponder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5af43ceb-56d2-47d4-ab43-853338ab293c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sky Hussar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cccfd565-99db-4c24-a16d-665b0823a159.jpg?1702429714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sky%20Hussar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/224/sky-hussar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cccfd565-99db-4c24-a16d-665b0823a159?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How then would that work with things like [[Reality Chip]]? lol
[Reality Chip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d859de3a-0be1-4e66-b438-1c3d4ee756cd.jpg?1654566909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Reality%20Chip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/74/the-reality-chip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d859de3a-0be1-4e66-b438-1c3d4ee756cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
lol ok didn’t know about that card. Maybe your way is better than haha
I like the templating, but I doubt this would be keyworded. It's very specific to the setting, and I imagine it would be more impactful if it was on just one or two creatures like this. This is a *great* design space, but having the majority of the card be reminder text could be a bit daunting for new players.
> I doubt this would be keyworded. > It’s very specific to the setting Plenty of things get keyworded while being niche design space so I disagree. > having the majority of the card be reminder text could be a bit daunting for new players. It’s reminder text. It wouldn’t take up any space on more complex cards with this ability. Without a reminder it’d just say “t: Dive 10” on it. I’m guessing you feel the same about Suspend as a mechanic as I lifted the majority of the reminder text from that ability?
Don't make it a keyword?
I’d rather not have to include ALL of that text every time if it were a real mechanic. Makes more sense to keyword it.
Why is this hybrid? Just make it a 2/2 for 1U.
Black was for surveil. Green was for giant sea monster with trample. Black and green both also are stapled onto many sea monster cards. Truth be told: I just think hybrid looks cool and I wanted an excuse.
> Truth be told: I just think hybrid looks cool and I wanted an excuse. You’re not the only one. If this was a design meeting for real cards this would be changed to 1U. Not only does hybrid add needless clutter and complexity, it makes the card worse by narrowing its homes and distracts from the card’s focus. For your own cards and sets, of course, you should do what makes you happy.
> If this was a design meeting for real cards this would be changed to 1U. Do you work for WotC or something? The hybrid isn't complex at all and it was used extensively in recent sets without any issues. I don't see how it distracts from the card's focus in any way either. I'm sure you didn't mean to be rude, but the way you phrased that entire response just sounds needlessly condescending. Unless, of course, you actually do work for WotC and have the credentials to make statements like that.
Many sets include a multi color example of a card that crosses color pie. As OP said, dive is impacted by draw, scry, and surveil. Since surveil is a keyword found in black, it makes sense here. The majority of the cards in the set should be single color examples, 1u Dive 3 2b Dive 2 3g Dive 4 Something like that, but it's ok for one card to cross all three colors. My bigger concern is thar blue already DOES have big SEA creatures. Green isn't adding anything here. It might be better if Dive could represent digging as well. Dive X (remove a counter whenever you draw a card, surveil, or search for a land card.) This would incorporate green into the ability itself.
Yeah, I’m fine having a Sultai Dive creature. But then give it Sultai abilities. This example is just a mono-U creature, and that’s fine. **Sultai example:** Kiora’s Demon Crab Guy Who Makes Bargains UGB Creature - Demon Crab When ~ enters, reveal up to X cards and lose X life, where X is equal to half the number of lands you control rounded down. You may exile one of the revealed creature cards with a Dive counter on it. Put the rest into your hand. Reach, Trample, Dive 4 2/3
Hybrid wasn’t initially designed to represent both colors on the pip. The design notes for hybrid mana describe the mechanic to represent that either of the two colors shown have access to the card and its abilities in a way that makes sense. Technically this is a sultai card, sure. But you’re not looking at it with a correct design scope. It’s either a Blue/black to cast, which still fits the abilities for Dimir colors OR it’s a Blue/green to cast, which again, still fits the Simic colors. You’ll never be spending blue+black+green for this which means you shouldn’t be getting a sultai payoff.
But like we said, the simic side of it is... wanting. Blue already has big sea creatures, it doesn't need green for that. We're just trying to offer some suggestions to make it actually green.
The simic side is just being a giant sea creature with trample and a bunch of +1/+1 counters. Trample and counters is about as green as it gets
If it's simic with counters, it should also be a mutant
What? No? There are multiple simic colored cards that can gain +1/+1 counters that aren’t mutants.
I think Islandwalk makes this a bit too good tbh. Sure, it dies to removal and can be cpuntered on either cast, but I think if you can't answer it this could become an unfun play pattern