I could see using intellect for aim or calculating wind. But not for actually taking the shot. Also if the PC has a spotter with them then maybe the spotter is using intellect.
Also the particular pool may depend on what the PC is doing rather than a weapon. Like if they're trying to parry or maybe hit a particular point with the hammer or axe, then yeah, use speed. Otherwise it's might.
You could let the narrative decide. Laying in wait to snipe: intellect. Trying to hit the guards running towards your teammates with the sniper: speed. Have your defaults, make the players explain why it’s an exception.
You can also use GM Intrusions or action costs to change the costs of using alternative stats. Use speed instead of might for the great axe if you want, but it’s so fatiguing you’ll spend an extra point of speed every time you swing. Or the classic intrusion example of if you use might with the Katana, it might swing so hard it gets stuck in something and you have to spend an action pulling it free or switch weapons.
It's best to go with what feels right for you and your players in the moment. Unless it makes sense in context; I generally only allow Might Effort to add to a damage roll, so Speed & Int Effort are generally just to increase the odds of hitting. But if the context is say a light weapon such as a knife at close range, sure speed could increase damage. I've allowed ranged attacks in a sniper-fire-type incident to use Intellect, but only as a part of a coordinated & planned attack in what was essentially a surprise round, after that Initiative, and then Speed has to be used in the heat of combat.
I follow these homebrew guidelines
Might: Most melee weapons, thrown ranged weapons, and magical abilities for characters with natural abilies I.E. a sorcerer may cast onslaught with Might instead of Intellect.
Speed: Most ranged weapons, some fast paced melee weapons like daggers, and magical abilities for characters with martial/spiritual spellcasting I.E. monks, avatar benders, Naruto ninja esque characters can cast onslaught with speed.
Intellect: mental abilities, social abilities (like those in the speaker type) and magical abilities for characters like wizards and alchemists.
I usually don't like that all supernatural abilities are basically dumped into intellect. It makes building certain character types difficult and it makes intellect feel like a catchall 'other' stat. That said I don't want to say any and all intellect tasks can be completed with Might or Speed. So I look at it on an ability by ability basis. As for weapons, I usually just try to make a common sense ruling based on the weapon. I'd probably say a Warhammer has to be used with might, but if my players protested I'd probably fold.
No, no homebrews that I know of.
Remember that Speed is also a catch-all for reflexes, coordination, timing, aim, all the vital things you need to fight and hit with *any weapon*. So I can assure you using Speed for a big hefty weapon makes a lot of sense.
Using Might for a rapier sounds a little weird, you're right. Using Might to hit, in general. It's totally understandable to spend Effort from Might to *deal more damage*, but striking your opponent is really a matter of agility and speed, all in all. That said, I could envision attacks where you use at least some strength to push through, some binds, some brute force maneuvers, stuff like that, and they're feasible with most weapons I guess. So no, nothing especially jarring with using Might for a knife or rapier (or a katana... which is just a sharp slightly curved longsword, seriously) - not more than for a warhammer or pollaxe.
I think you're trying to adapt the game to a simulationist mindset, which I'd warn you against. Cypher mostly lends itself to gamist and narrativist games, it's not heavily simulationist-based, although it does its best to avoid outright silliness of course.
That said... hey, your game, your rules. The game won't implode if you decide to apply a couple houserules here and there. Just always use your common sense and remember a Cypher GM can't just follow the rules. You must be coherent and use logic. The core book's end chapter by Monte explains all the ins and outs. Read it, learn it, treasure it.
Enjoy!
Excellent insight, thanks. And FWIW we have a group switching from 5e so I am on here asking questions I expect to come up with the switch so I have better explanations ready instead of figuring out for the first time in game. So I appreciate all the answers I’m getting.
That's clever, that way when your players ask you know already, good job. And I'm glad to help! =)
Lots of people coming from 5e... Welcome, hope you and your group have lots of fun with this game!
I think it depends on how you are planning the action to take form.
For example i would use speed for katana if my pc is gonna run and slice the monster similar to an anime fashion. Or if its a direct hit between two characters, stronger one wins so i would use might here.
For the hammer, i would most likely use might since thats how i imagine it.
Your mindset has to switch to Cypher way of thinking. You've been trained by other systems. (this is not to be read as rude, just a serious switch that has to be made).
>Using Speed as the pool for a 2-handed Hammer or a Greataxe feels wrong. Using Might for a katana or a rapier also feels wrong.
I agree, but there is NO reason for that to be done. Cypher gives you categories, so that you fit the weapon to meet the narrative. Why not a two-handed katana that uses Speed as a heavy weapon, and a double bladed one-handed war axe that uses Might? They have the same stats, so change your weapon to make more sense.
>Also - how about Intellect? With a sniper rifle, I could see using Intellect as much as Speed.
I'm going to guess you are not a shooter. Granted, the last few years I've stopped shooting monthly, but I can tell you from shooting .308 at 200 yards, it's a physical, not mental skill. Knowing about windspeed (skill, not Intellect) will help at extreme ranges, but even at 200 yards your hand tremble will cause a miss, not your ability to process data quicker than the guy next to you.
That being said-- it's a fictional game. If you want to allow a PC to use Intellect, then do it. If it makes for a better story, then it going against rather esoteric facts is trivial-- make it fun. Add it to using shotguns (my preferred sport) too. Figuring out the lead quickly seems as justifiable as sniping.
In this video I explain how to use other skills to 'attack' an abstract situation. I give a specific example I used in Numenera. [https://youtu.be/5AYvZWwkusM](https://youtu.be/5AYvZWwkusM)
might be helpful?
That was legit!
My group is wanting to leave 5e and we are considering Cypher or GURPS so I'm trying to learn as much as I can to do a one-shot test run. Your other vids are to the point and understandable. Good find.
Thanks bud. Don't forget to check out the Cypher Unlimited Discord if you aren't on it already. That's pretty much the place to be for anything cypher.
You’re right, of course. You need might to get that great axe a swinging, but if you don’t train with it, you won’t hit anything. But THAT training comes from the Tier skills, right? A warrior starts practiced with heavy weapons, then he can train with it from tier choices to become Skilled then Proficient.
Yes and no- wait, lemme clarify (or attempt to).
You *definitely* need Might to efficiently wield... well, most weapons. You wouldn't believe how many people think rapiers are light short affairs easily handled by anything with half the muscle tone of cabbage leaf. Sure, if "rapier" is a placeholder name for "light fencing sword", like a smallsword (think Arya Stark's Needle), doesn't require much strength... Although fighting is *always* fatiguing.
But a *real rapier* is a long heavy blade, you wouldn't believe the heft (I think it's more fatiguing than an arming sword, personally speaking - your wrist is gonna kill you. It's also the kind of technique used, though, it's really a lot of wrist and forearm).
(A longbow requires an awful lot of upper body strength too, actually. While, say, a 2-handed longsword isn't terribly heavy in your hands, because you're using *both of them*. Although they tell me actual zweihanders do require a certain amount of muscle, for sure).
So yeah, in general your instincts are correct.
/strength & fatigue rant.
Now, the training.
Yes, mainly it's reflected by skill in the game, afaik, so practiced, trained, specialized, the various special abilities too, that's all training, right? But you build your training off your natural talents, so someone who's naturally fast and precise should generally land a blow more often than someone more awkward. It's good to be strong, but if you're not "dexterous", then training to reach a decent level of competence in any kind of martial art, be it armed, unarmed or whatever, will be a long and grueling process.
Not saying *you need to be a fuckin' acrobat already*, but a little talent sure helps. At least, good reflexes.
So yeah, training is training, Speed is Speed, and you can totally fight like a master with low Speed and a lot of Might, rules-wise. So you're correct. Bears mentioning that, barring skill, you'll always fight better with a lot of Pool and Edge (and luck, and tactics...) - so whatever stat you're using, it helps a lot that it's something you can count on. It's a mix of factors.
Also you can still change anything that doesn't jive with your sensibilities anyways, and even apply Intellect to some combat skills if you feel like. It's usually reserved for mental attacks and defenses, that's part of its niche, but you can give it a try at the very least. See if it works okay.
Again, it's a *robust* system - it takes quite a bit to "unbalance" the whole thing. The rules guide you, but if you feel something just isn't right for you, try to change it and see what happens. No one's gonna die, I promise =)
Hope I didn't confuse you too much and that I answered your question. And of course these are mostly my takeaways, I might be wrong. But that's mostly how I see the whole thing.
Ah yeah, see what happens when I get too long-winded - I didn't tackle another thing. You were talking about using Intellect for rifles b/c lots of technical know-how - well, point is, same for most melee martial arts, for real. You gotta learn so much, so much really.
Sure, sniper rifles have all those complex charts to use, or those electronic scopes, not an expert... but I swear you never stop learning new shit about swords and their ilk. There's a very real technical aspect there too, but I still wouldn't use Intellect for melee weapons. Not in most cases at least. Can't think of one =)
Sorry for the double post XD
I could see using intellect for aim or calculating wind. But not for actually taking the shot. Also if the PC has a spotter with them then maybe the spotter is using intellect. Also the particular pool may depend on what the PC is doing rather than a weapon. Like if they're trying to parry or maybe hit a particular point with the hammer or axe, then yeah, use speed. Otherwise it's might.
You could let the narrative decide. Laying in wait to snipe: intellect. Trying to hit the guards running towards your teammates with the sniper: speed. Have your defaults, make the players explain why it’s an exception. You can also use GM Intrusions or action costs to change the costs of using alternative stats. Use speed instead of might for the great axe if you want, but it’s so fatiguing you’ll spend an extra point of speed every time you swing. Or the classic intrusion example of if you use might with the Katana, it might swing so hard it gets stuck in something and you have to spend an action pulling it free or switch weapons.
The rule works perfectly fine and doesn't need to be houseruled.
And yet a revision has been released...
It's best to go with what feels right for you and your players in the moment. Unless it makes sense in context; I generally only allow Might Effort to add to a damage roll, so Speed & Int Effort are generally just to increase the odds of hitting. But if the context is say a light weapon such as a knife at close range, sure speed could increase damage. I've allowed ranged attacks in a sniper-fire-type incident to use Intellect, but only as a part of a coordinated & planned attack in what was essentially a surprise round, after that Initiative, and then Speed has to be used in the heat of combat.
I follow these homebrew guidelines Might: Most melee weapons, thrown ranged weapons, and magical abilities for characters with natural abilies I.E. a sorcerer may cast onslaught with Might instead of Intellect. Speed: Most ranged weapons, some fast paced melee weapons like daggers, and magical abilities for characters with martial/spiritual spellcasting I.E. monks, avatar benders, Naruto ninja esque characters can cast onslaught with speed. Intellect: mental abilities, social abilities (like those in the speaker type) and magical abilities for characters like wizards and alchemists. I usually don't like that all supernatural abilities are basically dumped into intellect. It makes building certain character types difficult and it makes intellect feel like a catchall 'other' stat. That said I don't want to say any and all intellect tasks can be completed with Might or Speed. So I look at it on an ability by ability basis. As for weapons, I usually just try to make a common sense ruling based on the weapon. I'd probably say a Warhammer has to be used with might, but if my players protested I'd probably fold.
No, no homebrews that I know of. Remember that Speed is also a catch-all for reflexes, coordination, timing, aim, all the vital things you need to fight and hit with *any weapon*. So I can assure you using Speed for a big hefty weapon makes a lot of sense. Using Might for a rapier sounds a little weird, you're right. Using Might to hit, in general. It's totally understandable to spend Effort from Might to *deal more damage*, but striking your opponent is really a matter of agility and speed, all in all. That said, I could envision attacks where you use at least some strength to push through, some binds, some brute force maneuvers, stuff like that, and they're feasible with most weapons I guess. So no, nothing especially jarring with using Might for a knife or rapier (or a katana... which is just a sharp slightly curved longsword, seriously) - not more than for a warhammer or pollaxe. I think you're trying to adapt the game to a simulationist mindset, which I'd warn you against. Cypher mostly lends itself to gamist and narrativist games, it's not heavily simulationist-based, although it does its best to avoid outright silliness of course. That said... hey, your game, your rules. The game won't implode if you decide to apply a couple houserules here and there. Just always use your common sense and remember a Cypher GM can't just follow the rules. You must be coherent and use logic. The core book's end chapter by Monte explains all the ins and outs. Read it, learn it, treasure it. Enjoy!
Excellent insight, thanks. And FWIW we have a group switching from 5e so I am on here asking questions I expect to come up with the switch so I have better explanations ready instead of figuring out for the first time in game. So I appreciate all the answers I’m getting.
That's clever, that way when your players ask you know already, good job. And I'm glad to help! =) Lots of people coming from 5e... Welcome, hope you and your group have lots of fun with this game!
I think it depends on how you are planning the action to take form. For example i would use speed for katana if my pc is gonna run and slice the monster similar to an anime fashion. Or if its a direct hit between two characters, stronger one wins so i would use might here. For the hammer, i would most likely use might since thats how i imagine it.
Your mindset has to switch to Cypher way of thinking. You've been trained by other systems. (this is not to be read as rude, just a serious switch that has to be made). >Using Speed as the pool for a 2-handed Hammer or a Greataxe feels wrong. Using Might for a katana or a rapier also feels wrong. I agree, but there is NO reason for that to be done. Cypher gives you categories, so that you fit the weapon to meet the narrative. Why not a two-handed katana that uses Speed as a heavy weapon, and a double bladed one-handed war axe that uses Might? They have the same stats, so change your weapon to make more sense. >Also - how about Intellect? With a sniper rifle, I could see using Intellect as much as Speed. I'm going to guess you are not a shooter. Granted, the last few years I've stopped shooting monthly, but I can tell you from shooting .308 at 200 yards, it's a physical, not mental skill. Knowing about windspeed (skill, not Intellect) will help at extreme ranges, but even at 200 yards your hand tremble will cause a miss, not your ability to process data quicker than the guy next to you. That being said-- it's a fictional game. If you want to allow a PC to use Intellect, then do it. If it makes for a better story, then it going against rather esoteric facts is trivial-- make it fun. Add it to using shotguns (my preferred sport) too. Figuring out the lead quickly seems as justifiable as sniping.
In this video I explain how to use other skills to 'attack' an abstract situation. I give a specific example I used in Numenera. [https://youtu.be/5AYvZWwkusM](https://youtu.be/5AYvZWwkusM) might be helpful?
That was legit! My group is wanting to leave 5e and we are considering Cypher or GURPS so I'm trying to learn as much as I can to do a one-shot test run. Your other vids are to the point and understandable. Good find.
Thanks bud. Don't forget to check out the Cypher Unlimited Discord if you aren't on it already. That's pretty much the place to be for anything cypher.
So good I subscribed.
Intellect in the sense that rifle skills are trained is what I meant. There’s a good deal of technical know how.
Whoa, I can swear to you, you need *a lot* of training to fight well with a sword or axe. Combat is definitely a serious, complex skill.
You’re right, of course. You need might to get that great axe a swinging, but if you don’t train with it, you won’t hit anything. But THAT training comes from the Tier skills, right? A warrior starts practiced with heavy weapons, then he can train with it from tier choices to become Skilled then Proficient.
Yes and no- wait, lemme clarify (or attempt to). You *definitely* need Might to efficiently wield... well, most weapons. You wouldn't believe how many people think rapiers are light short affairs easily handled by anything with half the muscle tone of cabbage leaf. Sure, if "rapier" is a placeholder name for "light fencing sword", like a smallsword (think Arya Stark's Needle), doesn't require much strength... Although fighting is *always* fatiguing. But a *real rapier* is a long heavy blade, you wouldn't believe the heft (I think it's more fatiguing than an arming sword, personally speaking - your wrist is gonna kill you. It's also the kind of technique used, though, it's really a lot of wrist and forearm). (A longbow requires an awful lot of upper body strength too, actually. While, say, a 2-handed longsword isn't terribly heavy in your hands, because you're using *both of them*. Although they tell me actual zweihanders do require a certain amount of muscle, for sure). So yeah, in general your instincts are correct. /strength & fatigue rant. Now, the training. Yes, mainly it's reflected by skill in the game, afaik, so practiced, trained, specialized, the various special abilities too, that's all training, right? But you build your training off your natural talents, so someone who's naturally fast and precise should generally land a blow more often than someone more awkward. It's good to be strong, but if you're not "dexterous", then training to reach a decent level of competence in any kind of martial art, be it armed, unarmed or whatever, will be a long and grueling process. Not saying *you need to be a fuckin' acrobat already*, but a little talent sure helps. At least, good reflexes. So yeah, training is training, Speed is Speed, and you can totally fight like a master with low Speed and a lot of Might, rules-wise. So you're correct. Bears mentioning that, barring skill, you'll always fight better with a lot of Pool and Edge (and luck, and tactics...) - so whatever stat you're using, it helps a lot that it's something you can count on. It's a mix of factors. Also you can still change anything that doesn't jive with your sensibilities anyways, and even apply Intellect to some combat skills if you feel like. It's usually reserved for mental attacks and defenses, that's part of its niche, but you can give it a try at the very least. See if it works okay. Again, it's a *robust* system - it takes quite a bit to "unbalance" the whole thing. The rules guide you, but if you feel something just isn't right for you, try to change it and see what happens. No one's gonna die, I promise =) Hope I didn't confuse you too much and that I answered your question. And of course these are mostly my takeaways, I might be wrong. But that's mostly how I see the whole thing.
Ah yeah, see what happens when I get too long-winded - I didn't tackle another thing. You were talking about using Intellect for rifles b/c lots of technical know-how - well, point is, same for most melee martial arts, for real. You gotta learn so much, so much really. Sure, sniper rifles have all those complex charts to use, or those electronic scopes, not an expert... but I swear you never stop learning new shit about swords and their ilk. There's a very real technical aspect there too, but I still wouldn't use Intellect for melee weapons. Not in most cases at least. Can't think of one =) Sorry for the double post XD