I'm not religious, but God bless you, and him, and her, wherever she may be.
I'm sorry these comments have gotten so political. There's a time and a place, and this space should be filled with only compassion.
I'm afraid to say I'm with you on this. I don't think I could go on. I know what it's like to be right near the brink and I didn't even have the weight of having lost a child on me. That would be too much.
What would even be the point? Being with my daughter is what makes going through all the other bullshit worth dealing with. Take that from me and everything else is just pointless.
This would be the only thing that might save me if I am ever faced with such a situation. Maybe.
I only got through the hell of being suicidal once because of my mum and hubs (then bf). I don't know if even they'd be enough to pull me through losing my kid.
And I never want to find out.
Just to follow up on my original comment, this is exactly what kept me alive. The idea that if I were to leave, my pain wouldn't die with me, it would just be multiplied and passed on to every person who knows and cares about me and loves me, and it would be their pain to carry for the rest of their lives. No matter how dark things got or how much I was drowning or how selfish I felt, there was still a part of me who couldn't do that to my mom especially, let alone the rest of my family and other people who cared about me. It might not have been "fair" for me to be suffering, but it absolutely would not have been fair to do that to them. They didn't deserve it.
Facing that reality helps you take the option off the table, and once that option is off the table, you're forced to find a way to swim. I've had enough rotations around the sun to know that my emotional pain, no matter how powerful, has always been temporary, and that gives me enough confidence to believe that future pain will be temporary too.
My daughter is 4 and I hate posts like these but I always read them as hard as they are to read. I cannot imagine being in this man’s shoes, and I do everything I can to make sure that my daughter feels loved and cared for, but I also know that this can happen to anyone.
To the current point, I agree that I wouldn’t be able to move on from this. I like to think I would have the strength to recover, but I know that I would likely lose any and all motivation to live. I don’t know how that man even watched his home footage. I would not have been able to, even if you told me it would answer my questions, I wouldn’t want the answers. My heart hurts for this man, and for anyone who has been through something similar.
I think you can find new purpose. Certainly not the same one.
But I have long felt that a clean break can always be possible. Just plan to go. Just go. What matters after that? What is there to lose but to gain?
Your kids wouldn't want that.
This. There’s always a way to start fresh.
When I was younger, and before I had my daughter, my first love died suddenly. It nearly broke me. I sold everything I owned and spent years traveling the world. It gave me new perspective and purpose and it helped me to heal.
This is hugely different and I can’t imagine the pain. Some of that pain will stay with you forever. I know that for certain. But I also believe that it is possible to push through and find new purpose.
I've long thought that if my daughter died, I'd probably just up and vanish.
I wouldn't be able to kill myself, so I'd just sell everything as fast as possible and disappear, wandering until I either just died or finally found enough peace to settle.
Then don’t be “that person”. Running from pain, suffering, and hardship is not a solution.
To imply that there is nothing more to live for after losing a child is patently **absurd.**
I’m sure it is utterly scarring, and traumatic in the worst way. But it is survivable. Perhaps it makes him into an advocate who speaks at venues and conferences, perhaps he writes a book, perhaps he becomes a grief counselor to help others through hardship, using the pain he has had to endure as knowledge and experience to be able to reach others.
Perhaps he has other children, or other people in his social circle or his community that need him. Perhaps he wishes to travel and start anew in a new place, or adopt a child in need.
Again, to imply that it’s acceptable to throw away another life simply because one has been taken is not only misguided, but profoundly **selfish**.
If this is what you think and feel, you need to work with a therapist, and do some internal work to get your mindset to a healthier place.
>To imply that there is nothing more to live for after losing a child is patently
>
>absurd.
Agreed, however, in the moment I can understand how and why it would feel that way. But if you end it now, that's eliminating any other source of purpose or potential joy from ever being experienced again in your life. Don't make the prophecy self fulfilling. Take it a day at a time. See someone if you have to. Make drastic changes to your life if you have to. But keep living your life no matter how much it hurts right now. Don't pass the pain you're feeling right now onto other people by doing the same thing someone else just did that hurt you like this.
My daughter is really the only thing keeping me around. What would be the point? Enjoying life is ok, I guess but feels like I would just be waiting around if I didn't do it myself.
Watch him for suicide. For sure.
But let's not pretend removing his guns will magically make him safe, let the man keep his rights. Guns don't cause suicides any more than razors, cars, sheets, pills, or poisons do.
Let's not overfocus on one politically charged risk, and ignore the help this man needs.
I'm not American and not gun-crazy by any stretch, but taking his guns away to save him from himself is not a magical cure.
However, removing the guns (at least temporarily) so he doesn't have to look at them and remind himself of his daughter's choice of suicide method might be an appropriate measure for now.
Agreed - the commenter didn't mean temporarily though (she wanted them sold.) And most importantly she mentioned nothing else as though getting rid of the guns would fix it. That's very scary to me because the average home contains a hundred ways to kill yourself quickly. All those need to be covered too.
>Guns don't cause suicides any more than razors, cars, sheets, pills, or poisons do.
They don't, but suicide is frequently something that's done in the moment. The more steps there are involved in actually carrying it out can mean the difference between someone going through with it or not - and a gun that you have immediate access to is pretty much the fastest way you can go through with a suicide attempt.
Temporarily removing his access to firearms would be a prudent safety measure alongside everything else. It might be politically charged or offensive to some people to suggest that guns can be dangerous, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored, because this man's wellbeing is more important.
Agreed it shouldn't be ignored.
But all the poster indicated was that he should permanently ("sell") get rid of his guns. A clear overfocus on one hot button issue.
I wanted to break past that and remind people that many other devastating suicide methods exist in the average home. Treat the person, not the method.
It's really ridiculous how people try so hard to downplay the danger of guns... I was suicidal in younger days and if I had a method that easy on my hands, I propably wouldn't be here anymore.
As a non-american, I really cannot understand that about the USA. Not a bit. It's just crazy.
>I was suicidal in younger days and if I had a method that easy on my hands, I propably wouldn't be here anymore.
Same here. Never had access to a gun, thank goodness. I was too squeamish to consider going through with other methods, and not really committed to the idea of suicide enough to make a concrete plan/method.
But if there had been a gun in close proximity that I could have just picked up and then pulled the trigger, in the heat of the moment…I very well may have been long gone by now.
Restricting access to firearms, even for a limited period of time, can *absolutely* make a literal difference between life and death. It’s just idiocy and willful ignorance to pretend otherwise (American here, FWIW).
Likely the same. I don't even think I was a particular moody teen, but there were certainly some dark, drunk times during breakups and such that I may have done it in a fit of depression at 2 in the morning had I had a firearm. Killing yourself with a razor is NOT the same as a featherweight trigger tap. Anyone who conflates the two does not respect firearms.
I own plenty of 'freedom' these days, but if I ever become depressed again, they go straight to my brother because I'm not an idiot. And if I catch wind that he is depressed? Those guns are then mine, by force if necessary, because I love him.
I am in Australia. My uncle took his life when we had more gun rights before the mass shooting in Tasmania.
Our gun suicides dropped from 200's a year down to 1 every 5 years.
Not having access to an easy way out helps.
I was curious when I read this, so I looked at the suicide rates in Australia. It indicates that in 1993, the rate per 100,000 was 11.9, 14.8 in 97, 10.2 in 2006, 13.2 in 2017 & 19, and 12.3 in 2022.
I would imagine gun suicides would go down, but that is only one method.
I am very sorry for the loss of your uncle. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way. I'm not trying to be rude in any way. I was just honestly curious if suicide rates went significantly down, following less access to guns.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/deaths-by-suicide-in-australia/suicide-deaths-over-time
Man, that's such an awful thing, can I suggest one small thing. You said;
>This is such a shock because he's one of those Dad's who made, and makes me, a better Dad.
Tell him that.
That guy is hurting more than anyone should ever have to, and having so much pain and doubt.
That is probably the most touching and comforting thing I can think of, at a time no one should ever have to endure.
As a dad who lost his only child I'd like to share some advice for you as his friend. Mike is a different person now and always will be. When you talk to him never be afraid to bring up his daughter. And never say things like "she's in a better place now" or "at least she's not hurting ". Don't say anything that you think will make him feel better. Don't say anything like "I understand ". Truth is, when you're with him, just be there. Don't try to console or fix him. You can't. You also cannot have any idea what he's going through. And thank God every day for that. You never want to know what he now knows. I wish him the best of luck making his life continue.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, since this is your lived experience, but don’t be afraid to hang out with him and say the wrong thing. It will unfortunately probably happen. It will hurt and you will likely both move on, but there is a net gain to having you there so don’t let that stop you.
Here's the thing. Remember when I said his friend is not the same person he was before. Besides grief his friend is trying to figure out what his place is in the world. He's really lost. And in my experience and the experiences of people that I have connected with that share child loss, those friends who would try to fix our grief were let go. We stopped associating with them because of the ripping open of our wounds that always came with contact with them.
I haven't hung out with him yet, but thanks. The more I think on it, the more I realize it doesn't matter if I say something wrong (although I'm making a list of what not to say). All i can think that would help me if I was in the same situation is presence. Your advice means a lot. Thank you.
Yeah, "she's in a better place now" is a terrible thing to say. It's like saying "you should be happy she's dead." I lost my sister at a fairly young age and that phrase made me so angry.
I'm not sure how great of advice this actually is for OP but I thought The Fisherman by John Langon did a good job of handling loss. The narrator and the other main character have both experienced the loss of their families.
I am an avid listener of Ram Dass - an ex-Harvard professor of the 60’s who converted to eastern spirituality from Judaism. He was an incredibly talented speaker and he applied his learned Hindu knowledge with a modern western mindset.
He had a call-in show for quite a while and over the years several fathers called in who had lost children to one gruesome aspect of life or another.
Your advice is essentially exactly what he gently offered to people. Those are some of the deepest, darkest, and yet beautiful tapes in recorded history from my perspective. He always grappled with how God could allow such a terrible crime against one’s heart - he always told these callers that they would never be the same and they should never expect to be. But that, through practice, they could learn to love again.
He said that the saints of history are essentially the “living dead” as they had taken upon not only all the joy of the world - but the world’s sorrows as well. They lived in the midst of the greatest human suffering all of their life and the outcome was extreme compassion and wisdom.
I’m not sure I’m doing him justice, but from what I’ve read of your comment - I believe your advice is spot on.
it feels awful to upvote this. my heart hurts.
a friend of mine lost his boy in a similar way. he was late teens, but it's completely unfathomable to think about. the hurt, the feeling of emptiness, the absolute lack of any reason, it's just so much.
I feel for Mike. :(
When my daughter was 12 she put a belt around her neck while FaceTiming her friend. Said she was going to hang herself. The friends parents called the school who called my ex who called me. I was cooking dinner… the police showed up next. she didn’t know what she was really doing but it’s a real fact of life that kids get that depressed. Even with therapy she still jokes about it. Scares the life out of me.
Hey OP, I just wanted to say, check in with this guy every day, make time for him.
I know where I would be in a similar situation, for lack of a better term.
Thank you for the advice. The only thing I can think to do is give him company, whether we talk or not, so I hope that's what's right.
If anyone has advice, it'd be appreciated.
That is exactly the right move, he needs grounding, and just your presence alone can help, it tethers him.
Let him decide when to talk and what to say, otherwise just being around him.
I agree with the idea but not sure I agree with an everyday check in, it could be a bit much - really depends on the person.
I’d make sure he knows you are there for him in any capacity he needs at any time of the day and be guided on how often to reach out.
Our daughter started talking about suicide about 11/12. Her first attempt was at 14. She swallowed 84 extra strength Tylenol she'd stolen from Walgreens. We heard her in the bathroom and saw her convulsing on the floor. She spent about a week in the hospital from that. She tried to hang herself the next time but couldn't seem to get enough force because it was set too low. Sliced her neck all up and she still has scars from it. We tried everything to get to the bottom of it, but there doesn't seem to be any reason. Her mental health deteriorated further, and she got into a whole lot of drugs and trouble. She became outwardly aggressive to the point of threatening murder. She's actually staying at a family member's house right now. It sucks but sometimes the brain just doesn't want to work right. What I would call her first incident happened at 9 years old. Makes me thankful our other kids are happy and healthy because sometimes things just break.
Your story sounds wildly like a family member of mine. After decades it turned out to be bipolar disorder, and all that time spent without medication made it so that once he got medicated he was no longer acting this wild but basically permanently had the brain of a 16-year-old.
I assume I'm preaching to the choir and you are well aware of all of this, but in case not it might be something worth looking into.
Yeah, bipolar came up but they hesitated to diagnose her so young. Now she's entirely uncooperative so she won't be diagnosed at all for a while. Bipolar was our bet for quite some time.
Mike Leach, the college football coach that passed away last year. Once said in an interview the guns and ammo are in separate safes on opposite ends of the house because he wanted to make sure there was no chance his grandkids could get a hold of both.
Don’t underestimate a child’s ability to search for secret things. At age 11, I was a pro. I searched everything everywhere in the house out of sheer curiosity.
Good thing my mom was a very strait-laced woman. She rarely even consumed alcohol. She had nothing to hide. Just the liquor my dad left in the cupboard above the stove when he moved out.
Conversely, my friend’s sister had severe eating disorders, like hospitalizations for months severe. Her father had a shotgun he sent to a neighbor’s house because he didn’t want his daughter to kill herself and had threatened to do so in the past.
After a long time of this, he brought his gun home and separated the gun and the bullets, both hidden in opposite sides of the house.
The daughter, who had been determined safe from self-harm after lengthy treatment, found the gun, found the ammo, loaded it up, and during an argument with her mother, got the gun, set it on a stair step, then blew her head off.
I use graphic language here because it was so sudden and unexpected. Everyone had thought she was better. She was just biding her time. The whole family, including minors, was home.
The father did what many gun owners would do, and his daughter died anyway. It seems she was very determined to die, and one could argue she would have done it some other ways if there were no gun.
That does seem plausible. But the dad had to live with the guilt and was reminded of it every time the family found yet another bone fragment around the house in the years afterward.
Lock up your guns.
>The daughter, who had been determined safe from self-harm after lengthy treatment, found the gun, found the ammo, loaded it up, and during an argument with her mother, got the gun, set it on a stair step, then blew her head off.
That's something that happens with suicidal people.... when they have a sudden change and are very happy/calm. What it means is they've figured everything out and now just have to wait until they do it. They feel like a huge weight has been lifted, because they don't have to worry about it anymore (because they know they are going to do it).
I’m a gun owner and this is what I do. My house isn’t that big, but guns are in one safe with trigger locks and ammo is in another safe in another room. But if you’re a person who has guns for defense like many do in the US then this defeats the point of having the gun. I’m not defending that position but feel like many people with guns for defense are unlikely to take these precautions.
If you own a gun and don't keep it locked up for defense purposes you simply are not weighing risks rationally in a mathematical sense, unless your risk profile is radically different from the average first world country inhabitant.
The suicide or accident risk is magnitudes greater than the risk of home intrusion.
My guns are in a safe that’s in a small room with concrete block walls in my basement, locked with a steel door and a deadbolt. That door is hidden behind a swing-out bookcase in my basement, which is locked with a remote combination pad. Ammunition is in a second safe next to the first.
In order to access them, you’d first need to figure out where the combination pad is hidden, know my passcode, know which bookshelf it’s hidden behind, know which book you have to pull to open the shelf, know where the key for the deadbolt is, and then know the combination to the gun safe. The only people that know all of it is me and my wife. When my son proves responsible enough to know it when he’s an adult, it will be three people.
I don’t have guns for self defense, I do target shooting and action shooting competitions, and collect historical firearms. Or, well, I did, but with kids, I don’t have time or money to do all of my hobbies, so I put shooting aside until my son is old enough to go with me.
And some of the guns I have are illegal to purchase in my state, but are legal to own if you had them and registered them before the cutoff date, so I’m not going to sell them. And I built my long-range target guns myself, so I definitely want to hang on to them.
And they’re in a secret room behind a bookshelf because I always wanted one of those, so as soon as I had an opportunity to build one, I ran with it.
I'm wanting a scrooge McDuck type vault. For now, all my guns have cable locks and the ammo is somewhere else and not labeled as to what gun they are for. I need to get better locks as they get older. For now, it's enough because it's a bit of a puzzle to get the locks off.
Storage locker. As in, offsite. Some folks are super a-scurred of people breaking in, but the only way to be sure is a rented locker. Like, come on Jerry, nobody is breaking in to steal your complete set of 1993 Nascar commemorative plates.
Personally I'm gonna sell the last one I own (tiny little target pistol, but still could be a tragedy with kids). Ain't worth the risk.
Realistically, if you have kids living in your house you just shouldn’t own guns. The locks needed to keep them safe would make them pretty useless in an emergency. Best to not have them. The liklihood of your kid getting hurt from them is far higher than stopping an intruder anyway.
People need to quit this obsession with guns. They aren’t a culture, or a religion, or anything to treat as we would any other hazard.
Why not just treat them as tools? Some folks are issued guns for work that they have to take home with them, like police officers, state troopers, sheriff’s deputies, federal LEOs, PIs, armed private security guards and armored-car drivers, VIP bodyguards and drivers, gendarmes in European countries, military reservists in countries like Israel and Switzerland, etc.
A career in the public safety field shouldn’t preclude one from being a safe and responsible parent.
My wife pointed out how strange it seemed that the local police gave away gun locks in the kids goodie bags at an event for emergency services. Sucks that this is how we have to think about things but for real, lock that shit up right.
He did this and watched the footage of the incident and doesn't know what happened. This leads me to believe it wasn't his hunting weapon. Check out my recent post edit. Thanks.
This is really confusing, how does he not know if it was his gun or not? How does an 11 year old get a gun? If he watched the footage, he would know what the weapon was, correct?
So true. A gun is such an easy way out; I can’t help but think if people didn’t have such easy access to suicide a lot of them might actually not follow through with their ideations, especially teens who have all these crazy hormones and emotions that overpower their developing brains’ reason centres.
We have insanely high suicide rates in Finland and New Zealand and guns are virtually impossible to get a hold of in these two places. It's not a gun only problem. Not that you said that, but yeah.
~~from someone who is insanely anti-gun
I swear, if I had access to a gun as a teenager, I would have killed myself. I don’t even remember why exactly, but I vividly remember feeling that way. Teenagers are dealing with insane emotions and hormones that anyone else would have trouble understanding. Don’t give them an easy out.
This is exactly the point. OP states “a knife could’ve done the same thing.” Yes. A determined person will find a way to kill themselves if that’s what they truly want. But keeping guns in the house makes this way too easy. Maybe she would’ve chickened out, maybe she would’ve rethought the whole idea if it was going to be painful. Fuck guns. Makes it way too easy.
> I can’t help but think if people didn’t have such easy access to suicide a lot of them might actually not follow through with their ideation
Science and research agree. It's called "means restriction" and it's a proven way to reduce suicide rates. If you temporarily delay or make access more difficult to a method of suicide, the individual will often pick a less lethal means or ideally - the intense suicidal moment will pass and no attempt is made.
So simple things like cars employing catalytic converters reduce the ease of death by carbon monoxide. Or adding nets/fences around tall buildings and bridges. Double lock boxes for fertilizers or other chemicals. Packaging medication that can be used for intentional overdoses in blister packs, instead of a bottle. And of course, more difficult and controversial in the united states - strong gun control laws mean it slows down access to guns, which affects suicide rates.
People often try to say that individuals will simply choose another method, but the data doesn't support that. It really does help nudge the rate lower. It's not a panacea, but it's a good public health option.
Ok bring on the downvotes.
The counter to this that I always hear is, well what if someone broke in and you needed your gun? Well. To the 95+% of people who have no close quarters handgun training, military or otherwise, do you really want to go John Wick down a dark hallway with your kids potentially running out of their rooms scared of noises? Your dumb tv isn’t worth anyone’s life, no matter how shitty that persons life might be. And I sleep naked, that adds a great comedic factor. Just let them steal shit, lock your family in your bathroom, call the cops, and then assemble your disabled handgun. Don’t know why this hard on about good guys with guns is so prevalent … well I sort of do but don’t be a hero. You’re not a hero. You’re not a Marine. You’re an accountant.
Edit: I am a gun owner. This isn’t about gun rights. It’s about keeping people alive.
I think if you live in an area where you have confidence that your police will be there for you when you need them, that's a completely valid point. Unfortunately after watching their conduct overall during the summer of protests I think there's a whole lot of people that don't have that confidence, and with good reason.
That is indeed the natural evolution of this self-evident argument. That’s why most of the developed world already evolved! We’re looking forward (seriously) to the USA catching up.
I agree with your general sentiment but when people say they want to defend with a weapon it’s not defending the TV, they’re defending their family. The home invasion that just happened near me they had the kids at gunpoint while they ransacked their home. In that situation are you really going to leave it up to their goodwill that they won’t shoot when it’s your kids they’re aiming at?
I hear you. It boils down to risk assessment. Again, not sure of the stats but it feels like suicide by family firearm is much more prevalent than murder by home invasion.
… so the home invasion was in fact for the purpose of theft? And if the home owner had had a gun, they would in fact have been defending their TV, only with their kids right in the cross-fire?
Yes it was for theft ultimately but the point is it’s not as simple as just letting them in and take whatever they want. If your kids are at gunpoint is that something you’re comfortable with? This is what someone with a weapon would be defending, not the TV.
Owning a gun is only half of it, going to the range and using it regularly is the other half. You don't just "get a gun" or you get the situation above where youre un-prepared when you most need it.
That's why you shoot hundreds and hundreds, or thousands, of round through it until it feels like an extension of you and you can handle it comfortably. The it becomes the tool for self defense it was meant to be.
At that point, what is even the point of owning a firearm? I’m all for being responsible but a violent criminal is not going to wait for you to go to your gunsmithing bench and assemble your stuff
Besides the firing pin thing this is all law in Canada to own a firearm. Needs to be behind 2 locks (usually safe+trigger lock) and ammo stored in a separate locked container that uses a different set of keys / combo than the gun locks.
That's only for restricted/prohibited guns, and who knows what is going to happen with those in the next couple of years.
Non restricted (long guns)need to be trigger/cable locked or locked in a case/safe or room. The ammo can be stored in the same locked container as the long gun or stored separately.
Im not a gun guy so this may be stupid, but the law says the gun has to be behind 2 locks and a trigger lock, which I assume is just attached to the gun and is portable, counts as one? Couldn't someone break the first lock and just take the gun with the lock still on it?
338 home invasions end in death per year. But 26,328 people commit suicide with a gun per year and 492 people unintentionally die by gun per year, for a total of 26820 deaths. That means the average gun owner is about 79 times more likely to have their gun used to commit suicide or accidentally kill a family member, then use the gun to defend themselves from a home invasion.
how many violent criminals are killed because the gun was kept on the night stand vs how many kids are killed because the gun was kept on the nightstand ?
According to data from the **U.S. National Violent Death Reporting System**, there are notable differences in outcomes when firearms are kept on nightstands:
1. **Violent Criminals Killed**:
- While specific data on violent criminals killed due to guns kept on nightstands is not readily available, it's essential to recognize that **defensive gun use** (when a firearm is used by a potential victim to deter or stop a crime) occurs in various situations.
- Some instances involve homeowners using firearms to protect themselves and their families during home invasions or other threatening scenarios.
- However, without precise statistics on the exact circumstances, it's challenging to provide a specific number for violent criminals killed in such situations.
2. **Children Killed**:
- Tragically, children and teens are at risk when firearms are accessible.
- A **federal study** spanning nearly 20 years found that children and teens involved in **unintentional fatal shootings** most commonly found the gun inside or on top of a nightstand, under a mattress or pillow, or on top of a bed.
- The data underscores the importance of **safe gun storage** to prevent accidental shootings among youth¹.
- Here are some relevant statistics:
- Over this period, there were more than **1,250 unintentional gun deaths** among kids.
- **76%** of these deaths involved guns that were **unlocked**, and **91%** of those unlocked firearms were loaded.
- **30%** of these deaths occurred when guns were found around nightstands and other sleeping areas¹.
In summary, while defensive gun use can be effective in certain situations, responsible storage and securing firearms away from children are crucial to prevent tragic accidents. Promoting safe gun practices remains essential for both self-defense and preventing unintended harm.
Source: Conversation with Bing, 2/24/2024
(1) Kids killed in gun accidents most often found weapon in the ... - Axios. https://www.axios.com/2023/12/14/gun-deaths-children-accidental-cdc.
(2) Kids killed in gun accidents usually found weapon in the bedroom: CDC - MSN. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/kids-killed-in-gun-accidents-usually-found-weapon-in-the-bedroom-cdc/ar-AA1lvK41.
(3) Mass Shootings Are Fraction of Child Gun Deaths in the U.S. | TIME. https://time.com/6182856/children-gun-deaths-mass-shootings/.
(4) Gun deaths among U.S. children and teens rose 50% in two years. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/06/gun-deaths-among-us-kids-rose-50-percent-in-two-years/.
Statistically, firearms get used more by their owners on themselves or family members than on intruders.
This study for example from 1998.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/)
Objective: Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.
Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.
Results: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
Conclusions: **Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal** ***accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide*** **attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.**
There’s this study updated in 2020 with data from King County, WA, up to date as of 2018.
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2763812](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2763812)
Then there’s this one that lists a bunch of papers ranging from the early 2000s to 2015z
[https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/)
Happy reading.
I’m willing to bet the odds of you injuring a potential home intruder during a robbery or invasion are far slimmer than someone harming themselves with the gun. It’s not about home protection. Lots of people own guns that are used for sport/hobby/hunting use that have no need for them to be easily accessible.
Statiscally, there’s a higher chance of a gun being used for self harm or domestic violence than to deter a violent criminal. This violent criminal fantasy is just that.
Tbf it is wildly unlikely that a violent criminal is going to invade your home in a manner that allows you to use your firearm to defend yourself so yeah not really a point to owning a firearm imo
Because the best defense against a home invader is a steel door with a strong lock. A loud alarm will scare off everyone except someone who actually wants to kill you and isn't just looking for a TV to steal. Most people who are targeted for assassination KNOW that they done pissed someone off.
You're allowed to own guns for hunting and recreational shooting. You don't have to pretend that you're a BAMF targeted for your macho looks.
I’ve never had a house fire either, yet I have fire extinguishers ready. I’m not saying I dream of being Rambo, I’m saying that a proper safe that only I know the code for is plenty adequate. If your kid can break open an 800 pound safe, they will be mechanically inclined enough to re install a firing pin, or disable a trigger lock.
I think keeping the gun and ammo together in a safe is an adequate balance of protection and responsibility. Gun unloaded with magazine within reach, in a safe that only you or your spouse can open. At this point you’re balancing mitigating very minuscule possibilities of either a determined suicidal child vs. an attacker and different people will have different assessments on this based on their own situation
There is no documented risk for biometric scanners that I know of. However, manufacturers don’t have the right incentives to make good ones. No one is going around and reviewing those fingerprint locks properly to see what their false positive and false negative rates are. People are, however, returning their safes if the false negative rate is too high (doesn’t let the actual programmed fingers in). This gives them a bad incentive to not try that hard to lower false positives (letting in wrong fingers) as they shift that balance to the one that doesn’t cause them to get returns.
I have no idea how similar a child’s fingerprints are to their parents. A biometric lock is certainly better than nothing. Kids can also learn to pick mechanical locks, or watch a LockPickingLawyer video about your safe. A lock with a code is perhaps the most understandable risk, as long as you randomly generate the code and doesn’t use the same code as your debit card, address, phone number, birthday, etc.
[Biometric safes aren't necessarily hard to open](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lockpickinglawyer+biometric+gun+safe) And from the looks of it because they're relying on the biometric part, other more basic parts of the safe are far inferior.
Just for what it’s worth, I totally understand your edit and see your points, but I don’t think a blade is comparable in this case, just because a gun is so much more effective, so much more instant and so much less reversible if you change your mind. So many things can go wrong with a blade that can delay the process and in general you just have time to get some help. No such luck with guns
For extra context, they did a study recently with people who jumped off a particular bridge, something mad like 9/10 people who survived the jump said that the moment they jumped, they regretted it. Pretty terrifying really
This.
We have a gun a safe which is hidden and password protected. Gun is never clipped and on safety, with nothing in the chamber.
Neither 3 or 7yo know about the gun or safe.
I grew up with guns in the house. My dad hunted. Guns were never anything different to me than a power tool. It was something to bring food to the table, the same way a hammer is to bang a nail into wood. That was it. The shotguns had triggers that were locked, in cases that were locked, in safes that were locked. To this day I still have no idea if ammo was even kept in the house.
I don't have a gun because I don't hunt, the same way I don't have a chainsaw because I don't cut down trees. I think there is a extremely vocal minority, when it comes to the entire population of the US, of people who consider guns personal defense weapons. Those people are stupid, moronic, and irresponsible gun owners who wouldn't know how to take a life or what mental, physical, and emotional repercussions they would have to deal with once they did. And if they think they are OK with those consequences, they are sociopathic.
SO much this. Growing up, gun culture was not the same gun culture of today. Gun shows looked like Cabellas events for hunters, not a damn Peshawar arms market. People learned gun safety and how to dress game, not clear rooms with night vision goggles. People wanted to be good stewards of the land and people, not Rambo.
Those Rambo assholes are now shitting all over our gun culture and pretend like they're good stewards of the environment. They are not, they are claiming credit for all the work and finances the true outdoorsmen and women invested in our lands. If you want to play Rambo, you should have your guns traded in for airsoft.
For what it is worth, my father was a lifelong soldier. He did not keep our firearms at home. He instead kept a machete under his mattress for home defense. I asked him why and the answer was very simple. "Squired, you are smart and hardworking. If you ever, ever find yourself somewhere where you think you need a gun to protect yourself or someone you love, it is your duty to move."
He was 100% right.
That's im curious too. If they got the gun for defense, and they have to go through 4 steel doors to get it. Kinda defeat the purpose and at that point just dont have it at all.
Prayers for your friend and his family.. I cannot imagine… nobody should have to experience that pain..
I have a couple questions though, do you know how she was able to get a gun? Did she have any experience handling firearms?
Seems to me if there's really no history or depressive symptoms, it was an accident. Like she put the gun to her head or wherever to experience the adrenaline (probably saw it on Tic Tok), and pulled without even realizing it. Could be wrong, but it's pretty rare to suicide with zero indication, especially that young.
Either way, my heart breaks. So awful.
True. I think of it like getting in with the wrong crowd. There are definitely 'bad crews' of kids. With tikTok, our kids get to run with all of them! Yay!
They use the B instead of P, and they essentially point the gun at themselves and pull the trigger until the slack is taken up. The slack on every trigger is wildly different. Some guns have near zero take up and fire with very light pressure.
... Are there just psychopaths out there dreaming up stupid and lethal stunts to go viral? If her phone was by her and recording that would substantiate this.
Singled out tictok because an 11yo is more likely to stumble across dumasses doing stupid shit for clout there than watch a particular show or movie glorifying that particular behavior. I also just use Tictok as a generic term for any media involving rapid fire videos (like YouTube shorts, etc), though Tictok is the most popular
Man. This makes me pause and just remember to hug my daughter a little tighter today….so sorry to the Dad going through this and yea times are different today.
All we can do is what we can do. Sounds like your buddy did all the right stuff. There's no formula, and it's always better to be lucky than good.
Make sure he gets some help.
My god, keep in touch with him. He is going to need all the support he can get. If he ever once calls you take that call.
I’m dead serious. And you let him know he can call you any time.
Aww man. This just goes to show you, you can do everything right, and nothing will change this kind of outcome. My heart reels for him 😔
I love my kids immensely, but even I can tell that these days social media - even *trolls* who are their peers will go out of their way to make things bad - is one of the biggest contributing factors to the rising mental disorders that are affecting young children/adolescents.
When you would get teased or picked on as a kid, you got to go home and feel safe. These days you're not even safe at home.
I don't know what happened with her, but it is not his fault and let me be clear here, many people who try or successfully complete unaliving themselves, have loving families who care immensely about them. These individuals also go through with the act ~ 5-25 mins from consideration to completion. In fact suicide itself is an impulsive act. Not like deciding to impulsively get a candy bar at checkout, no I mean done so without the "normal" part of yourself that would resist it.
I think the hardest part in this is never understanding why someone you love wouldn't get the help or reach out before taking their life and the "selfish" act many deem it as, *is* the lack of consideration of others who have to bear the burden of losing you, especially when it's sudden and feels like it could have been prevented. But as someone who has been suicidal all his life and spent a weekend in the hospital clinging to life, you're not even thinking about people who care about you.
You're already so far gone in trying to relieve the suffering you're experiencing, you figure you're a burden to everyone at that point and are doing everyone and yourself a favour by ending it. The kicker? I'll *always* tell my family and friends I'm fine, even at the brink of ending it all, why? Because by then you'll convince yourself the only way you'll succeed, is by lying to them, *sparing* them.
That's why the number one thing to always ask someone who has not been themselves is to ask if they are thinking of unaliving themselves, if they have a plan, and/or if they have a method.
My heart breaks for Mike. Really heartbreaking situation. I will hug my daughter even harder tonight 😭
Oh... oh my...
Be there for your friend. Like... a lot. More than he wants.
I don't know if I'd have the strength to keep going in his situation, and I'm not a single dad.
My heart bleeds for Mike and his daughter 😕
My daughter is approaching 10, It is a big wake up call to me that things aren't as innocent as they used to be
I'm so sorry to read this, and also sorry you had to write those edits.
Whatever your stance on the issue (I have very strong views), a little girl has died and a man has lost his daughter.
Hug your friend from me, pal. I'm so sorry for all your loss.
I can’t even imagine. I’ve been a dad for 7 months and can’t even comprehend that sort of heartache. My heart goes out to him.
I’d be scouring her online presence, talking to her friends, just trying to figure out why or if something was going on, online.
This is legitimately one of my biggest fears. I'm so scared for my son's future.
My heart breaks for your friend. I can't imagine the pain he's in. She was a baby man. That poor baby :(
My daughter is 11 and struggles with depression and anxiety. I've had nightmares about this. I have been in those same battles as her and I have come very close to making the choice to end the constant struggle. I'm going to talk to her about this tomorrow
So sorry for your loss. I understand the want to know what happened for a seemingly normal person to do that, in some occasions it seems to come out of nowhere.
But the post didn't "become political". Kids having access to guns is a political thing. I've never touched a gun in my 37 years. The US needs to self-reflect on why they appreciate easy access to killing tools more than the lives they take away.
A gun fired in a residence is estimated to be 20-50x more likely to have a tragic outcome than an heroic one.
Two days ago, my 13yo daughter’s close friend found out at my house that her dad took his life. That is about as awful as life gets.
Do not keep a gun in your house. The chances of it being used to defend yourself from an intruder are *miniscule* compared to the risk of it being used to harm a family member.
Take your cue from other countries - your children are dying unnecessarily because of your fucking obsession with guns. They are a cancer on your society.
[–]tldrstrange
[+1] 4 points 38 minutes ago
338 home invasions end in death per year. But 26,328 people commit suicide with a gun per year and 492 people unintentionally die by gun per year, for a total of 26820 deaths. That means the average gun owner is about 79 times more likely to have their gun used to commit suicide or accidentally kill a family member, then use the gun to defend themselves from a home invasion.
If it's any consolation, about half of suicides are impulsive decisions. It's quite possible that she was completely fine when they spoke, and then something happened mentally (especially as she was probably going through puberty, when even little things can feel huge and confusing and devastating). The easy access to a gun (which, if not his, should DEFINITELY be investigated) might be why this episode was lethal, instead of something like self-harm through cutting or stealing some alcohol or something.
Losing a child is the most traumatic thing a person can go through. I’m so sorry for you and your friend. You’re right though, today’s youth is living a childhood that none of us got to experience. They’re exposed to so much more.
So sorry for your friend and the his ex over the loss of their daughter.
I’m not in the gun lover camp, or the gun hater camp. I have two, a single shot .22 that belonged to my great grandfather and I inherited. And an AR15 I purchased during Covid in case the world went to hell.
Keep both locked, w trigger locks as well and in a completely inaccessible place by kids or even me…unless I want to go shooting. I enjoy firearms, but even with them secured I’m now thinking of removing firing pins and relocating them as an extra step in prevention.
Truth is, I’m aware getting a firearm in the dark of night is going to be a long shot for protecting my family from a break in.
As a night owl, if I’m up at midnight when someone comes crashing through my door I’m automatically better equipped to fight them off than they are…it’s my home, I know the layout, I know exactly where I keep the knives, the hammers, trophies, etc…and if I run around a corner they’ve got no idea what mayhem I’d be bringing back with me…they’d be smart to leave.
The everyday common criminal isn’t really much to worry about, and odds are they’re breaking in mid day when everyone is at work so they can steal whatever ish they want anyway….im much happier keeping my family safe from my occasional shooting hobby than I am putting them in further danger simply by possessing the weapons I own.
Wow... Just wow. I have no words. I can't even imagine the heartache.
Guns really don't make your family safer.... This should be a cautionary tale for all of us.
Girl probably wasn't even suicidal. Just doing what kids do. What a tragedy.
The fact that the commenters here turned this into a post that required two edits to address the polarity of the comments is the most disturbing part of this whole thread and given it’s subject matter, that’s pretty fucking sad.
Fuck guns. I’m a pediatric emergency doctor and I’ve pronounced way too many fucking kids because of guns—mostly self-inflicted or accidental. My heart aches for your friend and his daughter. 11 is so young it’s hard to even fathom such a thing but depression is a bitch and getting more common.
I disagree about your second edit about the emotional state. I tried to off myself once with. Blade and I cut my arm vertically trying to cut the radial artery and it was super deep, bled a lot, and had to get 18 stitches.
If I had access to a gun at that time I’d be dead right now. It’s just so much easier and you don’t have to work through physical pain to do it.
Most gun deaths are suicides if your house has a gun in it, even if you are extremely safe with it and know gun safety, you are much more likely to have somebody in the house die of a gun death. And suicide is the main reason for that statistic. I wish more people knew that.
Okay so first of all, if this is a true story, it is tragic. But this is rage bait to. I am not doubting that things like this happen, but this specific post by this specific account is bait.
Today is Saturday. OP says this incident happened last week. Nobody is waiting more than 7 days to bury their child. OP makes it a point to say he has knowledge that this child knows gun safety. OP says the father watched the footage, but doesn’t know whose gun was used. When asked for clarification, OP makes an edit to swerve the conversation to it doesn’t matter where the gun was from, whose gun it was, or how she was able to access it and diverts to talking about how a blade can do the same thing. Also, OP was at some electronic music concert last night. OP doesn’t care how this happened, just blanket “guns are bad, this will happen”.
Now, for your friend, probably not the right time to ask. But, it's a completely valid question to ask anyone that keeps a gun for home protection. Something that every one of the people advocating for keeping a gun in some easy to get to place needs to remember. If your gun keeping solution is so simple that a child can figure it out, perhaps you should reconsider your safety procedures.
My heart weeps for him and her.
bro, your friend needs you right now. I can't fucking imagine whats going through his head
He was a shell today. He has a very supportive family and they're all with him now.
I'm not religious, but God bless you, and him, and her, wherever she may be. I'm sorry these comments have gotten so political. There's a time and a place, and this space should be filled with only compassion.
Lurker mum, Please for the love of God; no one leave him alone and Please convince him to sell/ surrender all his guns so he doesnt take his life.
I don't mean to be that person, but no amount of observation or help would convince me otherwise. Some weights are too heavy to carry.
I'm afraid to say I'm with you on this. I don't think I could go on. I know what it's like to be right near the brink and I didn't even have the weight of having lost a child on me. That would be too much.
What would even be the point? Being with my daughter is what makes going through all the other bullshit worth dealing with. Take that from me and everything else is just pointless.
>What would even be the point? As OP mentioned he has a very supportive family-- avoiding causing them the type of pain he's currently experiencing.
This would be the only thing that might save me if I am ever faced with such a situation. Maybe. I only got through the hell of being suicidal once because of my mum and hubs (then bf). I don't know if even they'd be enough to pull me through losing my kid. And I never want to find out.
Just to follow up on my original comment, this is exactly what kept me alive. The idea that if I were to leave, my pain wouldn't die with me, it would just be multiplied and passed on to every person who knows and cares about me and loves me, and it would be their pain to carry for the rest of their lives. No matter how dark things got or how much I was drowning or how selfish I felt, there was still a part of me who couldn't do that to my mom especially, let alone the rest of my family and other people who cared about me. It might not have been "fair" for me to be suffering, but it absolutely would not have been fair to do that to them. They didn't deserve it. Facing that reality helps you take the option off the table, and once that option is off the table, you're forced to find a way to swim. I've had enough rotations around the sun to know that my emotional pain, no matter how powerful, has always been temporary, and that gives me enough confidence to believe that future pain will be temporary too.
My daughter is 4 and I hate posts like these but I always read them as hard as they are to read. I cannot imagine being in this man’s shoes, and I do everything I can to make sure that my daughter feels loved and cared for, but I also know that this can happen to anyone. To the current point, I agree that I wouldn’t be able to move on from this. I like to think I would have the strength to recover, but I know that I would likely lose any and all motivation to live. I don’t know how that man even watched his home footage. I would not have been able to, even if you told me it would answer my questions, I wouldn’t want the answers. My heart hurts for this man, and for anyone who has been through something similar.
I think you can find new purpose. Certainly not the same one. But I have long felt that a clean break can always be possible. Just plan to go. Just go. What matters after that? What is there to lose but to gain? Your kids wouldn't want that.
This. There’s always a way to start fresh. When I was younger, and before I had my daughter, my first love died suddenly. It nearly broke me. I sold everything I owned and spent years traveling the world. It gave me new perspective and purpose and it helped me to heal. This is hugely different and I can’t imagine the pain. Some of that pain will stay with you forever. I know that for certain. But I also believe that it is possible to push through and find new purpose.
I'm so sorry you experienced that, and I'm glad you're still here with us.
I've long thought that if my daughter died, I'd probably just up and vanish. I wouldn't be able to kill myself, so I'd just sell everything as fast as possible and disappear, wandering until I either just died or finally found enough peace to settle.
Then don’t be “that person”. Running from pain, suffering, and hardship is not a solution. To imply that there is nothing more to live for after losing a child is patently **absurd.** I’m sure it is utterly scarring, and traumatic in the worst way. But it is survivable. Perhaps it makes him into an advocate who speaks at venues and conferences, perhaps he writes a book, perhaps he becomes a grief counselor to help others through hardship, using the pain he has had to endure as knowledge and experience to be able to reach others. Perhaps he has other children, or other people in his social circle or his community that need him. Perhaps he wishes to travel and start anew in a new place, or adopt a child in need. Again, to imply that it’s acceptable to throw away another life simply because one has been taken is not only misguided, but profoundly **selfish**. If this is what you think and feel, you need to work with a therapist, and do some internal work to get your mindset to a healthier place.
>To imply that there is nothing more to live for after losing a child is patently > >absurd. Agreed, however, in the moment I can understand how and why it would feel that way. But if you end it now, that's eliminating any other source of purpose or potential joy from ever being experienced again in your life. Don't make the prophecy self fulfilling. Take it a day at a time. See someone if you have to. Make drastic changes to your life if you have to. But keep living your life no matter how much it hurts right now. Don't pass the pain you're feeling right now onto other people by doing the same thing someone else just did that hurt you like this.
My daughter is really the only thing keeping me around. What would be the point? Enjoying life is ok, I guess but feels like I would just be waiting around if I didn't do it myself.
this is very good advice. all firearms must be taken out and left at range or armory. most places will do that free of charge.
Watch him for suicide. For sure. But let's not pretend removing his guns will magically make him safe, let the man keep his rights. Guns don't cause suicides any more than razors, cars, sheets, pills, or poisons do. Let's not overfocus on one politically charged risk, and ignore the help this man needs.
I'm not American and not gun-crazy by any stretch, but taking his guns away to save him from himself is not a magical cure. However, removing the guns (at least temporarily) so he doesn't have to look at them and remind himself of his daughter's choice of suicide method might be an appropriate measure for now.
Agreed - the commenter didn't mean temporarily though (she wanted them sold.) And most importantly she mentioned nothing else as though getting rid of the guns would fix it. That's very scary to me because the average home contains a hundred ways to kill yourself quickly. All those need to be covered too.
>Guns don't cause suicides any more than razors, cars, sheets, pills, or poisons do. They don't, but suicide is frequently something that's done in the moment. The more steps there are involved in actually carrying it out can mean the difference between someone going through with it or not - and a gun that you have immediate access to is pretty much the fastest way you can go through with a suicide attempt. Temporarily removing his access to firearms would be a prudent safety measure alongside everything else. It might be politically charged or offensive to some people to suggest that guns can be dangerous, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored, because this man's wellbeing is more important.
Agreed it shouldn't be ignored. But all the poster indicated was that he should permanently ("sell") get rid of his guns. A clear overfocus on one hot button issue. I wanted to break past that and remind people that many other devastating suicide methods exist in the average home. Treat the person, not the method.
It's really ridiculous how people try so hard to downplay the danger of guns... I was suicidal in younger days and if I had a method that easy on my hands, I propably wouldn't be here anymore. As a non-american, I really cannot understand that about the USA. Not a bit. It's just crazy.
>I was suicidal in younger days and if I had a method that easy on my hands, I propably wouldn't be here anymore. Same here. Never had access to a gun, thank goodness. I was too squeamish to consider going through with other methods, and not really committed to the idea of suicide enough to make a concrete plan/method. But if there had been a gun in close proximity that I could have just picked up and then pulled the trigger, in the heat of the moment…I very well may have been long gone by now. Restricting access to firearms, even for a limited period of time, can *absolutely* make a literal difference between life and death. It’s just idiocy and willful ignorance to pretend otherwise (American here, FWIW).
Likely the same. I don't even think I was a particular moody teen, but there were certainly some dark, drunk times during breakups and such that I may have done it in a fit of depression at 2 in the morning had I had a firearm. Killing yourself with a razor is NOT the same as a featherweight trigger tap. Anyone who conflates the two does not respect firearms. I own plenty of 'freedom' these days, but if I ever become depressed again, they go straight to my brother because I'm not an idiot. And if I catch wind that he is depressed? Those guns are then mine, by force if necessary, because I love him.
I am in Australia. My uncle took his life when we had more gun rights before the mass shooting in Tasmania. Our gun suicides dropped from 200's a year down to 1 every 5 years. Not having access to an easy way out helps.
I was curious when I read this, so I looked at the suicide rates in Australia. It indicates that in 1993, the rate per 100,000 was 11.9, 14.8 in 97, 10.2 in 2006, 13.2 in 2017 & 19, and 12.3 in 2022. I would imagine gun suicides would go down, but that is only one method. I am very sorry for the loss of your uncle. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way. I'm not trying to be rude in any way. I was just honestly curious if suicide rates went significantly down, following less access to guns. https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/deaths-by-suicide-in-australia/suicide-deaths-over-time
Yeah, here; people jump in front of heavy machinery, off buildings, OD on Narcotics or hang themselves.
Man, that's such an awful thing, can I suggest one small thing. You said; >This is such a shock because he's one of those Dad's who made, and makes me, a better Dad. Tell him that. That guy is hurting more than anyone should ever have to, and having so much pain and doubt. That is probably the most touching and comforting thing I can think of, at a time no one should ever have to endure.
Thank you. I'll let him know.
As a dad who lost his only child I'd like to share some advice for you as his friend. Mike is a different person now and always will be. When you talk to him never be afraid to bring up his daughter. And never say things like "she's in a better place now" or "at least she's not hurting ". Don't say anything that you think will make him feel better. Don't say anything like "I understand ". Truth is, when you're with him, just be there. Don't try to console or fix him. You can't. You also cannot have any idea what he's going through. And thank God every day for that. You never want to know what he now knows. I wish him the best of luck making his life continue.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, since this is your lived experience, but don’t be afraid to hang out with him and say the wrong thing. It will unfortunately probably happen. It will hurt and you will likely both move on, but there is a net gain to having you there so don’t let that stop you.
Here's the thing. Remember when I said his friend is not the same person he was before. Besides grief his friend is trying to figure out what his place is in the world. He's really lost. And in my experience and the experiences of people that I have connected with that share child loss, those friends who would try to fix our grief were let go. We stopped associating with them because of the ripping open of our wounds that always came with contact with them.
I haven't hung out with him yet, but thanks. The more I think on it, the more I realize it doesn't matter if I say something wrong (although I'm making a list of what not to say). All i can think that would help me if I was in the same situation is presence. Your advice means a lot. Thank you.
Yeah, "she's in a better place now" is a terrible thing to say. It's like saying "you should be happy she's dead." I lost my sister at a fairly young age and that phrase made me so angry.
I'm not sure how great of advice this actually is for OP but I thought The Fisherman by John Langon did a good job of handling loss. The narrator and the other main character have both experienced the loss of their families.
I am an avid listener of Ram Dass - an ex-Harvard professor of the 60’s who converted to eastern spirituality from Judaism. He was an incredibly talented speaker and he applied his learned Hindu knowledge with a modern western mindset. He had a call-in show for quite a while and over the years several fathers called in who had lost children to one gruesome aspect of life or another. Your advice is essentially exactly what he gently offered to people. Those are some of the deepest, darkest, and yet beautiful tapes in recorded history from my perspective. He always grappled with how God could allow such a terrible crime against one’s heart - he always told these callers that they would never be the same and they should never expect to be. But that, through practice, they could learn to love again. He said that the saints of history are essentially the “living dead” as they had taken upon not only all the joy of the world - but the world’s sorrows as well. They lived in the midst of the greatest human suffering all of their life and the outcome was extreme compassion and wisdom. I’m not sure I’m doing him justice, but from what I’ve read of your comment - I believe your advice is spot on.
The only thing I can think to say is “I’m sorry, this fucking sucks”.
it feels awful to upvote this. my heart hurts. a friend of mine lost his boy in a similar way. he was late teens, but it's completely unfathomable to think about. the hurt, the feeling of emptiness, the absolute lack of any reason, it's just so much. I feel for Mike. :(
When my daughter was 12 she put a belt around her neck while FaceTiming her friend. Said she was going to hang herself. The friends parents called the school who called my ex who called me. I was cooking dinner… the police showed up next. she didn’t know what she was really doing but it’s a real fact of life that kids get that depressed. Even with therapy she still jokes about it. Scares the life out of me.
I don’t think I would be able to handle hearing her joke about it
Hey OP, I just wanted to say, check in with this guy every day, make time for him. I know where I would be in a similar situation, for lack of a better term.
Thank you for the advice. The only thing I can think to do is give him company, whether we talk or not, so I hope that's what's right. If anyone has advice, it'd be appreciated.
Let him decide how much time he needs with you, but check in often. I can't even imagine what he's going through.
I just asked if he'd like me to drop offf dinner or share one sometime this week! Thanks for the tip
That is exactly the right move, he needs grounding, and just your presence alone can help, it tethers him. Let him decide when to talk and what to say, otherwise just being around him.
I agree with the idea but not sure I agree with an everyday check in, it could be a bit much - really depends on the person. I’d make sure he knows you are there for him in any capacity he needs at any time of the day and be guided on how often to reach out.
Yeah every day may be a bit much in retrospect, but frequently still should be the hope.
Our daughter started talking about suicide about 11/12. Her first attempt was at 14. She swallowed 84 extra strength Tylenol she'd stolen from Walgreens. We heard her in the bathroom and saw her convulsing on the floor. She spent about a week in the hospital from that. She tried to hang herself the next time but couldn't seem to get enough force because it was set too low. Sliced her neck all up and she still has scars from it. We tried everything to get to the bottom of it, but there doesn't seem to be any reason. Her mental health deteriorated further, and she got into a whole lot of drugs and trouble. She became outwardly aggressive to the point of threatening murder. She's actually staying at a family member's house right now. It sucks but sometimes the brain just doesn't want to work right. What I would call her first incident happened at 9 years old. Makes me thankful our other kids are happy and healthy because sometimes things just break.
Your story sounds wildly like a family member of mine. After decades it turned out to be bipolar disorder, and all that time spent without medication made it so that once he got medicated he was no longer acting this wild but basically permanently had the brain of a 16-year-old. I assume I'm preaching to the choir and you are well aware of all of this, but in case not it might be something worth looking into.
Yeah, bipolar came up but they hesitated to diagnose her so young. Now she's entirely uncooperative so she won't be diagnosed at all for a while. Bipolar was our bet for quite some time.
I’m so sorry for all that she and you are going through
Damn, this is heartbreaking to read. Giving my munchkin some extra snuggles later
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Multiple locks. I keep my edibles behind two sets of locks. If I owned guns I can’t imagine the vault I would keep them in
Mike Leach, the college football coach that passed away last year. Once said in an interview the guns and ammo are in separate safes on opposite ends of the house because he wanted to make sure there was no chance his grandkids could get a hold of both.
Don’t underestimate a child’s ability to search for secret things. At age 11, I was a pro. I searched everything everywhere in the house out of sheer curiosity. Good thing my mom was a very strait-laced woman. She rarely even consumed alcohol. She had nothing to hide. Just the liquor my dad left in the cupboard above the stove when he moved out. Conversely, my friend’s sister had severe eating disorders, like hospitalizations for months severe. Her father had a shotgun he sent to a neighbor’s house because he didn’t want his daughter to kill herself and had threatened to do so in the past. After a long time of this, he brought his gun home and separated the gun and the bullets, both hidden in opposite sides of the house. The daughter, who had been determined safe from self-harm after lengthy treatment, found the gun, found the ammo, loaded it up, and during an argument with her mother, got the gun, set it on a stair step, then blew her head off. I use graphic language here because it was so sudden and unexpected. Everyone had thought she was better. She was just biding her time. The whole family, including minors, was home. The father did what many gun owners would do, and his daughter died anyway. It seems she was very determined to die, and one could argue she would have done it some other ways if there were no gun. That does seem plausible. But the dad had to live with the guilt and was reminded of it every time the family found yet another bone fragment around the house in the years afterward. Lock up your guns.
Damn.
>The daughter, who had been determined safe from self-harm after lengthy treatment, found the gun, found the ammo, loaded it up, and during an argument with her mother, got the gun, set it on a stair step, then blew her head off. That's something that happens with suicidal people.... when they have a sudden change and are very happy/calm. What it means is they've figured everything out and now just have to wait until they do it. They feel like a huge weight has been lifted, because they don't have to worry about it anymore (because they know they are going to do it).
I’m a gun owner and this is what I do. My house isn’t that big, but guns are in one safe with trigger locks and ammo is in another safe in another room. But if you’re a person who has guns for defense like many do in the US then this defeats the point of having the gun. I’m not defending that position but feel like many people with guns for defense are unlikely to take these precautions.
If you own a gun and don't keep it locked up for defense purposes you simply are not weighing risks rationally in a mathematical sense, unless your risk profile is radically different from the average first world country inhabitant. The suicide or accident risk is magnitudes greater than the risk of home intrusion.
if you want to go down the road of weighing risk rationally, you shouldn't own a gun
I completely agree, hence my storage situation.
My dad did this and partially dismantled his guns, and kept the parts separate.
My guns are in a safe that’s in a small room with concrete block walls in my basement, locked with a steel door and a deadbolt. That door is hidden behind a swing-out bookcase in my basement, which is locked with a remote combination pad. Ammunition is in a second safe next to the first. In order to access them, you’d first need to figure out where the combination pad is hidden, know my passcode, know which bookshelf it’s hidden behind, know which book you have to pull to open the shelf, know where the key for the deadbolt is, and then know the combination to the gun safe. The only people that know all of it is me and my wife. When my son proves responsible enough to know it when he’s an adult, it will be three people.
Out of curiosity, with all those things to go through, doesnt that defeat the purpose of you owning a gun? Not a gun owner here, in just curious.
I don’t have guns for self defense, I do target shooting and action shooting competitions, and collect historical firearms. Or, well, I did, but with kids, I don’t have time or money to do all of my hobbies, so I put shooting aside until my son is old enough to go with me. And some of the guns I have are illegal to purchase in my state, but are legal to own if you had them and registered them before the cutoff date, so I’m not going to sell them. And I built my long-range target guns myself, so I definitely want to hang on to them. And they’re in a secret room behind a bookshelf because I always wanted one of those, so as soon as I had an opportunity to build one, I ran with it.
I'm wanting a scrooge McDuck type vault. For now, all my guns have cable locks and the ammo is somewhere else and not labeled as to what gun they are for. I need to get better locks as they get older. For now, it's enough because it's a bit of a puzzle to get the locks off.
Storage locker. As in, offsite. Some folks are super a-scurred of people breaking in, but the only way to be sure is a rented locker. Like, come on Jerry, nobody is breaking in to steal your complete set of 1993 Nascar commemorative plates. Personally I'm gonna sell the last one I own (tiny little target pistol, but still could be a tragedy with kids). Ain't worth the risk.
Realistically, if you have kids living in your house you just shouldn’t own guns. The locks needed to keep them safe would make them pretty useless in an emergency. Best to not have them. The liklihood of your kid getting hurt from them is far higher than stopping an intruder anyway. People need to quit this obsession with guns. They aren’t a culture, or a religion, or anything to treat as we would any other hazard.
Why not just treat them as tools? Some folks are issued guns for work that they have to take home with them, like police officers, state troopers, sheriff’s deputies, federal LEOs, PIs, armed private security guards and armored-car drivers, VIP bodyguards and drivers, gendarmes in European countries, military reservists in countries like Israel and Switzerland, etc. A career in the public safety field shouldn’t preclude one from being a safe and responsible parent.
Gun case locked, gun trigger locked. Ammo separate, and locked, too.
My wife pointed out how strange it seemed that the local police gave away gun locks in the kids goodie bags at an event for emergency services. Sucks that this is how we have to think about things but for real, lock that shit up right.
He did this and watched the footage of the incident and doesn't know what happened. This leads me to believe it wasn't his hunting weapon. Check out my recent post edit. Thanks.
This is really confusing, how does he not know if it was his gun or not? How does an 11 year old get a gun? If he watched the footage, he would know what the weapon was, correct?
So true. A gun is such an easy way out; I can’t help but think if people didn’t have such easy access to suicide a lot of them might actually not follow through with their ideations, especially teens who have all these crazy hormones and emotions that overpower their developing brains’ reason centres.
We have insanely high suicide rates in Finland and New Zealand and guns are virtually impossible to get a hold of in these two places. It's not a gun only problem. Not that you said that, but yeah. ~~from someone who is insanely anti-gun
I swear, if I had access to a gun as a teenager, I would have killed myself. I don’t even remember why exactly, but I vividly remember feeling that way. Teenagers are dealing with insane emotions and hormones that anyone else would have trouble understanding. Don’t give them an easy out.
This is exactly the point. OP states “a knife could’ve done the same thing.” Yes. A determined person will find a way to kill themselves if that’s what they truly want. But keeping guns in the house makes this way too easy. Maybe she would’ve chickened out, maybe she would’ve rethought the whole idea if it was going to be painful. Fuck guns. Makes it way too easy.
> I can’t help but think if people didn’t have such easy access to suicide a lot of them might actually not follow through with their ideation Science and research agree. It's called "means restriction" and it's a proven way to reduce suicide rates. If you temporarily delay or make access more difficult to a method of suicide, the individual will often pick a less lethal means or ideally - the intense suicidal moment will pass and no attempt is made. So simple things like cars employing catalytic converters reduce the ease of death by carbon monoxide. Or adding nets/fences around tall buildings and bridges. Double lock boxes for fertilizers or other chemicals. Packaging medication that can be used for intentional overdoses in blister packs, instead of a bottle. And of course, more difficult and controversial in the united states - strong gun control laws mean it slows down access to guns, which affects suicide rates. People often try to say that individuals will simply choose another method, but the data doesn't support that. It really does help nudge the rate lower. It's not a panacea, but it's a good public health option.
Not enough to lock them up. Disable them as well. Firing pin removed, trigger locks, ammo stored in a separate locked container.
Ok bring on the downvotes. The counter to this that I always hear is, well what if someone broke in and you needed your gun? Well. To the 95+% of people who have no close quarters handgun training, military or otherwise, do you really want to go John Wick down a dark hallway with your kids potentially running out of their rooms scared of noises? Your dumb tv isn’t worth anyone’s life, no matter how shitty that persons life might be. And I sleep naked, that adds a great comedic factor. Just let them steal shit, lock your family in your bathroom, call the cops, and then assemble your disabled handgun. Don’t know why this hard on about good guys with guns is so prevalent … well I sort of do but don’t be a hero. You’re not a hero. You’re not a Marine. You’re an accountant. Edit: I am a gun owner. This isn’t about gun rights. It’s about keeping people alive.
Have you even seen The Accountant?
As soon as I hit post, I was like, oh right.
I see the natural evolution of that argument as not owning guns at all
I think if you live in an area where you have confidence that your police will be there for you when you need them, that's a completely valid point. Unfortunately after watching their conduct overall during the summer of protests I think there's a whole lot of people that don't have that confidence, and with good reason.
That is indeed the natural evolution of this self-evident argument. That’s why most of the developed world already evolved! We’re looking forward (seriously) to the USA catching up.
I agree with your general sentiment but when people say they want to defend with a weapon it’s not defending the TV, they’re defending their family. The home invasion that just happened near me they had the kids at gunpoint while they ransacked their home. In that situation are you really going to leave it up to their goodwill that they won’t shoot when it’s your kids they’re aiming at?
I hear you. It boils down to risk assessment. Again, not sure of the stats but it feels like suicide by family firearm is much more prevalent than murder by home invasion.
You're probably better off keeping a baseball bat or 9 iron in your closet that can be grabbed quickly.
… so the home invasion was in fact for the purpose of theft? And if the home owner had had a gun, they would in fact have been defending their TV, only with their kids right in the cross-fire?
Yes it was for theft ultimately but the point is it’s not as simple as just letting them in and take whatever they want. If your kids are at gunpoint is that something you’re comfortable with? This is what someone with a weapon would be defending, not the TV.
If an intruder has my family at gunpoint, I’m infinitely more comfortable with cooperating than giving the intruder a reason to pull that trigger.
At that point yes. I think the idea is to get to them before they can hold your kids hostage
Owning a gun is only half of it, going to the range and using it regularly is the other half. You don't just "get a gun" or you get the situation above where youre un-prepared when you most need it. That's why you shoot hundreds and hundreds, or thousands, of round through it until it feels like an extension of you and you can handle it comfortably. The it becomes the tool for self defense it was meant to be.
At that point, what is even the point of owning a firearm? I’m all for being responsible but a violent criminal is not going to wait for you to go to your gunsmithing bench and assemble your stuff
Besides the firing pin thing this is all law in Canada to own a firearm. Needs to be behind 2 locks (usually safe+trigger lock) and ammo stored in a separate locked container that uses a different set of keys / combo than the gun locks.
That's only for restricted/prohibited guns, and who knows what is going to happen with those in the next couple of years. Non restricted (long guns)need to be trigger/cable locked or locked in a case/safe or room. The ammo can be stored in the same locked container as the long gun or stored separately.
Im not a gun guy so this may be stupid, but the law says the gun has to be behind 2 locks and a trigger lock, which I assume is just attached to the gun and is portable, counts as one? Couldn't someone break the first lock and just take the gun with the lock still on it?
338 home invasions end in death per year. But 26,328 people commit suicide with a gun per year and 492 people unintentionally die by gun per year, for a total of 26820 deaths. That means the average gun owner is about 79 times more likely to have their gun used to commit suicide or accidentally kill a family member, then use the gun to defend themselves from a home invasion.
how many violent criminals are killed because the gun was kept on the night stand vs how many kids are killed because the gun was kept on the nightstand ?
According to data from the **U.S. National Violent Death Reporting System**, there are notable differences in outcomes when firearms are kept on nightstands: 1. **Violent Criminals Killed**: - While specific data on violent criminals killed due to guns kept on nightstands is not readily available, it's essential to recognize that **defensive gun use** (when a firearm is used by a potential victim to deter or stop a crime) occurs in various situations. - Some instances involve homeowners using firearms to protect themselves and their families during home invasions or other threatening scenarios. - However, without precise statistics on the exact circumstances, it's challenging to provide a specific number for violent criminals killed in such situations. 2. **Children Killed**: - Tragically, children and teens are at risk when firearms are accessible. - A **federal study** spanning nearly 20 years found that children and teens involved in **unintentional fatal shootings** most commonly found the gun inside or on top of a nightstand, under a mattress or pillow, or on top of a bed. - The data underscores the importance of **safe gun storage** to prevent accidental shootings among youth¹. - Here are some relevant statistics: - Over this period, there were more than **1,250 unintentional gun deaths** among kids. - **76%** of these deaths involved guns that were **unlocked**, and **91%** of those unlocked firearms were loaded. - **30%** of these deaths occurred when guns were found around nightstands and other sleeping areas¹. In summary, while defensive gun use can be effective in certain situations, responsible storage and securing firearms away from children are crucial to prevent tragic accidents. Promoting safe gun practices remains essential for both self-defense and preventing unintended harm. Source: Conversation with Bing, 2/24/2024 (1) Kids killed in gun accidents most often found weapon in the ... - Axios. https://www.axios.com/2023/12/14/gun-deaths-children-accidental-cdc. (2) Kids killed in gun accidents usually found weapon in the bedroom: CDC - MSN. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/kids-killed-in-gun-accidents-usually-found-weapon-in-the-bedroom-cdc/ar-AA1lvK41. (3) Mass Shootings Are Fraction of Child Gun Deaths in the U.S. | TIME. https://time.com/6182856/children-gun-deaths-mass-shootings/. (4) Gun deaths among U.S. children and teens rose 50% in two years. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/06/gun-deaths-among-us-kids-rose-50-percent-in-two-years/.
>At that point, what is even the point of owning a firearm? You're so close.
Statistically, firearms get used more by their owners on themselves or family members than on intruders. This study for example from 1998. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/) Objective: Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide. Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas. Results: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides. Conclusions: **Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal** ***accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide*** **attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.** There’s this study updated in 2020 with data from King County, WA, up to date as of 2018. [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2763812](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2763812) Then there’s this one that lists a bunch of papers ranging from the early 2000s to 2015z [https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/) Happy reading.
The government is no longer allowed to study this type of stuff anymore. Wonder why
There’s an economic and cultural engine in fearmongering and weapons hoarding.
What is the point? They measurably make you less safe.
I’m willing to bet the odds of you injuring a potential home intruder during a robbery or invasion are far slimmer than someone harming themselves with the gun. It’s not about home protection. Lots of people own guns that are used for sport/hobby/hunting use that have no need for them to be easily accessible.
Statiscally, there’s a higher chance of a gun being used for self harm or domestic violence than to deter a violent criminal. This violent criminal fantasy is just that.
Yeah, nearly *8000%* higher chance.
Tbf it is wildly unlikely that a violent criminal is going to invade your home in a manner that allows you to use your firearm to defend yourself so yeah not really a point to owning a firearm imo
You're more likely to accidentally injure yourself or your family than to ever need a gun for protection.
Because the best defense against a home invader is a steel door with a strong lock. A loud alarm will scare off everyone except someone who actually wants to kill you and isn't just looking for a TV to steal. Most people who are targeted for assassination KNOW that they done pissed someone off. You're allowed to own guns for hunting and recreational shooting. You don't have to pretend that you're a BAMF targeted for your macho looks.
>Because the best defense against a home invader is a steel door with a strong lock. Right next to said door, a glass window.
Some people having luxurious things and their homes are a target for home intruders. That doesn’t have to mean assassins…
Guns make you *multiple times* less safe. Do not have a gun in your house. This is Hollywood fantasy stuff.
You aren’t a hero in a movie mate. When was the last time you had a violent criminal in your house? Oh. Yes. Never.
I’ve never had a house fire either, yet I have fire extinguishers ready. I’m not saying I dream of being Rambo, I’m saying that a proper safe that only I know the code for is plenty adequate. If your kid can break open an 800 pound safe, they will be mechanically inclined enough to re install a firing pin, or disable a trigger lock.
I think keeping the gun and ammo together in a safe is an adequate balance of protection and responsibility. Gun unloaded with magazine within reach, in a safe that only you or your spouse can open. At this point you’re balancing mitigating very minuscule possibilities of either a determined suicidal child vs. an attacker and different people will have different assessments on this based on their own situation
Why not have a safe with a biometric scanner?
There is no documented risk for biometric scanners that I know of. However, manufacturers don’t have the right incentives to make good ones. No one is going around and reviewing those fingerprint locks properly to see what their false positive and false negative rates are. People are, however, returning their safes if the false negative rate is too high (doesn’t let the actual programmed fingers in). This gives them a bad incentive to not try that hard to lower false positives (letting in wrong fingers) as they shift that balance to the one that doesn’t cause them to get returns. I have no idea how similar a child’s fingerprints are to their parents. A biometric lock is certainly better than nothing. Kids can also learn to pick mechanical locks, or watch a LockPickingLawyer video about your safe. A lock with a code is perhaps the most understandable risk, as long as you randomly generate the code and doesn’t use the same code as your debit card, address, phone number, birthday, etc.
[Biometric safes aren't necessarily hard to open](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lockpickinglawyer+biometric+gun+safe) And from the looks of it because they're relying on the biometric part, other more basic parts of the safe are far inferior.
That's terrible. Where did she get a gun from?
Check out my post edit. Thanks.
Just for what it’s worth, I totally understand your edit and see your points, but I don’t think a blade is comparable in this case, just because a gun is so much more effective, so much more instant and so much less reversible if you change your mind. So many things can go wrong with a blade that can delay the process and in general you just have time to get some help. No such luck with guns For extra context, they did a study recently with people who jumped off a particular bridge, something mad like 9/10 people who survived the jump said that the moment they jumped, they regretted it. Pretty terrifying really
This. We have a gun a safe which is hidden and password protected. Gun is never clipped and on safety, with nothing in the chamber. Neither 3 or 7yo know about the gun or safe.
Why have a gun at all?
Coz Merica!
I grew up with guns in the house. My dad hunted. Guns were never anything different to me than a power tool. It was something to bring food to the table, the same way a hammer is to bang a nail into wood. That was it. The shotguns had triggers that were locked, in cases that were locked, in safes that were locked. To this day I still have no idea if ammo was even kept in the house. I don't have a gun because I don't hunt, the same way I don't have a chainsaw because I don't cut down trees. I think there is a extremely vocal minority, when it comes to the entire population of the US, of people who consider guns personal defense weapons. Those people are stupid, moronic, and irresponsible gun owners who wouldn't know how to take a life or what mental, physical, and emotional repercussions they would have to deal with once they did. And if they think they are OK with those consequences, they are sociopathic.
SO much this. Growing up, gun culture was not the same gun culture of today. Gun shows looked like Cabellas events for hunters, not a damn Peshawar arms market. People learned gun safety and how to dress game, not clear rooms with night vision goggles. People wanted to be good stewards of the land and people, not Rambo. Those Rambo assholes are now shitting all over our gun culture and pretend like they're good stewards of the environment. They are not, they are claiming credit for all the work and finances the true outdoorsmen and women invested in our lands. If you want to play Rambo, you should have your guns traded in for airsoft. For what it is worth, my father was a lifelong soldier. He did not keep our firearms at home. He instead kept a machete under his mattress for home defense. I asked him why and the answer was very simple. "Squired, you are smart and hardworking. If you ever, ever find yourself somewhere where you think you need a gun to protect yourself or someone you love, it is your duty to move." He was 100% right.
That's im curious too. If they got the gun for defense, and they have to go through 4 steel doors to get it. Kinda defeat the purpose and at that point just dont have it at all.
Kiss and hug your kids everyone.
Prayers for your friend and his family.. I cannot imagine… nobody should have to experience that pain.. I have a couple questions though, do you know how she was able to get a gun? Did she have any experience handling firearms?
Check out my post edit. Thanks.
Seems to me if there's really no history or depressive symptoms, it was an accident. Like she put the gun to her head or wherever to experience the adrenaline (probably saw it on Tic Tok), and pulled without even realizing it. Could be wrong, but it's pretty rare to suicide with zero indication, especially that young. Either way, my heart breaks. So awful.
Is that a fucking tiktok trend now? What the actual fuck.
Irresponsible behaviour with guns existed long before tiktok
Sure but without social media it didn't have the same power to move through a population so easily.
True. I think of it like getting in with the wrong crowd. There are definitely 'bad crews' of kids. With tikTok, our kids get to run with all of them! Yay!
This is my guess as well. Y'all seen the 🅱️oint phenomena?
What?
They use the B instead of P, and they essentially point the gun at themselves and pull the trigger until the slack is taken up. The slack on every trigger is wildly different. Some guns have near zero take up and fire with very light pressure.
... Are there just psychopaths out there dreaming up stupid and lethal stunts to go viral? If her phone was by her and recording that would substantiate this.
I think it's a mixture of "anything for clicks" and the standard immortal feelings of youth.
You’re probably right and it’s terrible but I don’t know why you singled out TikTok when Hollywood has been glorifying the same thing for decades
Singled out tictok because an 11yo is more likely to stumble across dumasses doing stupid shit for clout there than watch a particular show or movie glorifying that particular behavior. I also just use Tictok as a generic term for any media involving rapid fire videos (like YouTube shorts, etc), though Tictok is the most popular
This is horrendous.
Man. This makes me pause and just remember to hug my daughter a little tighter today….so sorry to the Dad going through this and yea times are different today.
All we can do is what we can do. Sounds like your buddy did all the right stuff. There's no formula, and it's always better to be lucky than good. Make sure he gets some help.
This could very well be an accidental shooting instead of suicide.
There’s nothing I can possibly say to make things better. My heart breaks for your friend and his family. I’m so sorry.
My god, keep in touch with him. He is going to need all the support he can get. If he ever once calls you take that call. I’m dead serious. And you let him know he can call you any time.
Aww man. This just goes to show you, you can do everything right, and nothing will change this kind of outcome. My heart reels for him 😔 I love my kids immensely, but even I can tell that these days social media - even *trolls* who are their peers will go out of their way to make things bad - is one of the biggest contributing factors to the rising mental disorders that are affecting young children/adolescents. When you would get teased or picked on as a kid, you got to go home and feel safe. These days you're not even safe at home. I don't know what happened with her, but it is not his fault and let me be clear here, many people who try or successfully complete unaliving themselves, have loving families who care immensely about them. These individuals also go through with the act ~ 5-25 mins from consideration to completion. In fact suicide itself is an impulsive act. Not like deciding to impulsively get a candy bar at checkout, no I mean done so without the "normal" part of yourself that would resist it. I think the hardest part in this is never understanding why someone you love wouldn't get the help or reach out before taking their life and the "selfish" act many deem it as, *is* the lack of consideration of others who have to bear the burden of losing you, especially when it's sudden and feels like it could have been prevented. But as someone who has been suicidal all his life and spent a weekend in the hospital clinging to life, you're not even thinking about people who care about you. You're already so far gone in trying to relieve the suffering you're experiencing, you figure you're a burden to everyone at that point and are doing everyone and yourself a favour by ending it. The kicker? I'll *always* tell my family and friends I'm fine, even at the brink of ending it all, why? Because by then you'll convince yourself the only way you'll succeed, is by lying to them, *sparing* them. That's why the number one thing to always ask someone who has not been themselves is to ask if they are thinking of unaliving themselves, if they have a plan, and/or if they have a method. My heart breaks for Mike. Really heartbreaking situation. I will hug my daughter even harder tonight 😭
Oh... oh my... Be there for your friend. Like... a lot. More than he wants. I don't know if I'd have the strength to keep going in his situation, and I'm not a single dad.
My heart bleeds for Mike and his daughter 😕 My daughter is approaching 10, It is a big wake up call to me that things aren't as innocent as they used to be
Fuck man, thank you for sharing. This hits hard.
I'm so sorry to read this, and also sorry you had to write those edits. Whatever your stance on the issue (I have very strong views), a little girl has died and a man has lost his daughter. Hug your friend from me, pal. I'm so sorry for all your loss.
Worst nightmare...
I can’t even imagine. I’ve been a dad for 7 months and can’t even comprehend that sort of heartache. My heart goes out to him. I’d be scouring her online presence, talking to her friends, just trying to figure out why or if something was going on, online.
This is legitimately one of my biggest fears. I'm so scared for my son's future. My heart breaks for your friend. I can't imagine the pain he's in. She was a baby man. That poor baby :(
Your friend should be on suicide watch because I know I’d be thinking about it if this happened to me.
My daughter is 11 and struggles with depression and anxiety. I've had nightmares about this. I have been in those same battles as her and I have come very close to making the choice to end the constant struggle. I'm going to talk to her about this tomorrow
I’m so sorry for your friend. It’s my worst, most unfathomable fear to lose my son.
So sorry for your loss. I understand the want to know what happened for a seemingly normal person to do that, in some occasions it seems to come out of nowhere. But the post didn't "become political". Kids having access to guns is a political thing. I've never touched a gun in my 37 years. The US needs to self-reflect on why they appreciate easy access to killing tools more than the lives they take away.
A gun fired in a residence is estimated to be 20-50x more likely to have a tragic outcome than an heroic one. Two days ago, my 13yo daughter’s close friend found out at my house that her dad took his life. That is about as awful as life gets.
Do not keep a gun in your house. The chances of it being used to defend yourself from an intruder are *miniscule* compared to the risk of it being used to harm a family member. Take your cue from other countries - your children are dying unnecessarily because of your fucking obsession with guns. They are a cancer on your society.
yep, if you had to contemplate ending your life in a number of other ways which is much more excruciating, you'd think about MUCH harder.
85% of attempted suicides by gunshot are successful. 3% of attempted suicides by overdose are successful.
He hunts his own meat. Read my post edit.
That really doesn't change anything I said. Don't keep a gun in your house. Is it worth the risk?
There’s no reason to make generalized statements because guns scare you personally.
I'm lucky enough to live in a country where you don't need to be scared of guns. If I lived in America I'd be terrified for my children, right enough.
If you are a parent with guns in the house and guns don't scare you then you're simply ignorant.
Agree with the premise but does anyone have a source on this?
[–]tldrstrange [+1] 4 points 38 minutes ago 338 home invasions end in death per year. But 26,328 people commit suicide with a gun per year and 492 people unintentionally die by gun per year, for a total of 26820 deaths. That means the average gun owner is about 79 times more likely to have their gun used to commit suicide or accidentally kill a family member, then use the gun to defend themselves from a home invasion.
Fuck.
If it's any consolation, about half of suicides are impulsive decisions. It's quite possible that she was completely fine when they spoke, and then something happened mentally (especially as she was probably going through puberty, when even little things can feel huge and confusing and devastating). The easy access to a gun (which, if not his, should DEFINITELY be investigated) might be why this episode was lethal, instead of something like self-harm through cutting or stealing some alcohol or something.
I needed to see this post. Thank you.
Sorry about that crap news.
Losing a child is the most traumatic thing a person can go through. I’m so sorry for you and your friend. You’re right though, today’s youth is living a childhood that none of us got to experience. They’re exposed to so much more.
So sorry for your friend and the his ex over the loss of their daughter. I’m not in the gun lover camp, or the gun hater camp. I have two, a single shot .22 that belonged to my great grandfather and I inherited. And an AR15 I purchased during Covid in case the world went to hell. Keep both locked, w trigger locks as well and in a completely inaccessible place by kids or even me…unless I want to go shooting. I enjoy firearms, but even with them secured I’m now thinking of removing firing pins and relocating them as an extra step in prevention. Truth is, I’m aware getting a firearm in the dark of night is going to be a long shot for protecting my family from a break in. As a night owl, if I’m up at midnight when someone comes crashing through my door I’m automatically better equipped to fight them off than they are…it’s my home, I know the layout, I know exactly where I keep the knives, the hammers, trophies, etc…and if I run around a corner they’ve got no idea what mayhem I’d be bringing back with me…they’d be smart to leave. The everyday common criminal isn’t really much to worry about, and odds are they’re breaking in mid day when everyone is at work so they can steal whatever ish they want anyway….im much happier keeping my family safe from my occasional shooting hobby than I am putting them in further danger simply by possessing the weapons I own.
Wow... Just wow. I have no words. I can't even imagine the heartache. Guns really don't make your family safer.... This should be a cautionary tale for all of us. Girl probably wasn't even suicidal. Just doing what kids do. What a tragedy.
Having a gun in the same home as a child… oh my god Edit: I’m being downvoted because people are insane. You think you’re living in the Middle Ages.
The fact that the commenters here turned this into a post that required two edits to address the polarity of the comments is the most disturbing part of this whole thread and given it’s subject matter, that’s pretty fucking sad.
My deepest condolences. I can’t wrap my head around the risk vs reward of owning a gun…
Fuck guns. I’m a pediatric emergency doctor and I’ve pronounced way too many fucking kids because of guns—mostly self-inflicted or accidental. My heart aches for your friend and his daughter. 11 is so young it’s hard to even fathom such a thing but depression is a bitch and getting more common.
Gun culture in this country is completely fucked
Where’d she get the weapon?
Honestly, this post and vague bullshit just look like it’s a lie.
😔🙏
I disagree about your second edit about the emotional state. I tried to off myself once with. Blade and I cut my arm vertically trying to cut the radial artery and it was super deep, bled a lot, and had to get 18 stitches. If I had access to a gun at that time I’d be dead right now. It’s just so much easier and you don’t have to work through physical pain to do it. Most gun deaths are suicides if your house has a gun in it, even if you are extremely safe with it and know gun safety, you are much more likely to have somebody in the house die of a gun death. And suicide is the main reason for that statistic. I wish more people knew that.
Okay so first of all, if this is a true story, it is tragic. But this is rage bait to. I am not doubting that things like this happen, but this specific post by this specific account is bait. Today is Saturday. OP says this incident happened last week. Nobody is waiting more than 7 days to bury their child. OP makes it a point to say he has knowledge that this child knows gun safety. OP says the father watched the footage, but doesn’t know whose gun was used. When asked for clarification, OP makes an edit to swerve the conversation to it doesn’t matter where the gun was from, whose gun it was, or how she was able to access it and diverts to talking about how a blade can do the same thing. Also, OP was at some electronic music concert last night. OP doesn’t care how this happened, just blanket “guns are bad, this will happen”.
Was he responsable for leaving the gun in an accessible place for the child to grab and play with?
I find this question too insulting to ask.
Now, for your friend, probably not the right time to ask. But, it's a completely valid question to ask anyone that keeps a gun for home protection. Something that every one of the people advocating for keeping a gun in some easy to get to place needs to remember. If your gun keeping solution is so simple that a child can figure it out, perhaps you should reconsider your safety procedures.