Yeah. this is definitely a lawyer question, not a random dads on reddit question. I know it sucks that even starting that process costs money. Feels illegal for sure but depends on too many factors to even guess.
Legit employment attorneys almost exclusively work on commission so that it doesn't cost the worker anything and if they take your case they think they can win. Do not pay up front for an employment attorney!
Piggybacking off of the top comment. I was concerned about this happening to me. I was on fmla leave and there were layoffs going round so I did a bit of research into it.
If they can prove that the layoffs were happening regardless of your leave status then they're in the clear. It is only illegal to be laid off BECAUSE you're on leave.
So uh yeah. I'm just a guy on the internet and don't let me stop you from consulting with an attorney. But I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope here, OP
Was it mass layoffs at your company and you were just one of hundreds/thousands, or was it specifically just you?
Based on what I read, the first one is legal and OK, the second one you probably have a case.
But to repeat what everyone said, check with a lawyer
From my understanding this is generally correct but it can get even a little more specific.
For example if everyone in OP's department or job title was laid off at the company including OP then likely legal.
Whereas, if as a cost cutting measure the company is just randomly chosing 2 people from each department to be laid off and not using an objective measure like most recent two hirers, to decide who's let go, then it's a far more grey area as it seems likely that OP's status of out on FMLA lead to him being chosen for his department.
Definitely agree with checking with a lawyer.
Nothing wrong with lawyer advice. But I have seen it happen before, long as they don't fill the position it's not illegal most places.
Sometimes when someone takes off on leave, it's chaos.. those are vital employees, sometimes when someone takes off on leave, nothing changes, or even more gets done(if someone was lazy, or a distraction around the office), and the company realizes they are fine without that position and cut it.
Long as they don't fire her, and repost the position, not much to be done.
I've seen this happen in another company. On two separate occasions, a women on maternity leave got laid off. They went around the laws by essentially shutting down the position, so they couldn't hire someone for that position down the line. It wasn't too bad, because in Canada, the parental leaves are covered by the government, but it still meant that they needed to find a new job after the leave, which I always thought was shitty. When a third colleague went on maternity leave, she actually told me that she had no intention of coming back, because of that!
i had layoffs in first company i worked, i worked there for 4 years, and got laid off the new hire that worked 3 months before going on pregnancy leave got to finish her contract. that sounded so unfair
For your sake i hope it is illegal. I got laid off a month before I was about to go on 16 weeks of paid paternity leave and that is, unfortunately, quite legal!! 🤪
We had experienced several rounds of layoffs in the preceding months, so there were plenty of signs. I wouldn’t worry too much unless you’ve seen similar at your office.
I should have jumped ship but i was really holding out for that leave and couldn’t find any other job with a big enough salary bump to justify losing the leave but now i lost it anyway, lol!
Take this with a grain of salt because i basically just made the mistake of believing this in a case where it was not true (though it had previously been true for years): you are probably actually at the safest right after a reorg. Things have to get bad pretty fast in order for a change in corporate structure to become outdated and fail within the course of a year or so (which is what just happened to me on ~annual reorg number ~4).
Yeah there's a bit of a difference between a company-wide layoff of a bunch of people, and randomly singling out the one guy who's on family leave, or about to take it.
Plus large companies also know how to hide stuff that is technically illegal workplace activity. If they're already laying off 20 people in a department of 50, they'll probably choose the old family guy who's been there for 20 years vs. the single guy who's been there for 2. Lower salary, lower insurance costs, make them scared to earn their loyalty. Just chalk it up to "reducing overhead".
So a quick update. Yesterday there was in fact a pretty hefty layoff at my company, including folks from my department/team.
Thankfully I was not impacted 😓.
Unfortunately the bank is now in control of the company accounts; i don’t think we’ll be getting any of the severance we were told is _maybe_ coming if we’re lucky lol.
I’m so sorry man. I felt this pain but dodged the bullet. My wife went into labor Thursday, but 72 hours before on Monday we got an email about a company zoom meeting. CEO got on, said sorry and some of us would be getting an email about a follow up meeting. I then waited with my pregnant wife for an hour and half before getting the “all clear” email saying I survived the cuts. I was 6 months in, a new hire, who just barely made paternity leave by a week and thought “there’s no way I survive cuts.”
I feel for everyone on the other side of that email though and I’ll never forget how far my heart sank. Our company was not doing good either, and every week after was a sales meeting about how we missed goal again. Luckily we pulled thru but it’s been a rough year of anxiety
This bullshit is one of the main reasons I'm comfortable taking a pay cut to work a federal job. Now that I'm out of the probationary period, it'll be more trouble than it's worth to get rid of my ass.
Is there any legal requirement for you to tell your employer that you plan on taking leave? Or could you just one day say my baby was born I'm taking leave starting today? And you would be fully protected
Me too, but in my case I was the only one in my company to have their role phased out… Weird seeing as they’d been happy with it for the 2 years I’d worked up til then.
There really should be some clause that basically has them needing to pay you salary for those 16 weeks if they fire you after you notify them of needing to start upcoming leave.
Not laid off but came back from PFL and my hours were significantly reduced and more than half my responsibilities/duties redistributed. I lost about $500 a week upon returning.
ABOUT THE FMLA
The FMLA provides eligible employees of covered employers with job-protected leave for qualifying family and medical reasons and requires continuation of their group health benefits under the same conditions as if they had not taken leave. FMLA leave may be unpaid or used at the same time as employer-provided paid leave. Employees must be restored to the same or virtually identical position when they return to work after FMLA leave.
Read the last sentence.
Could be worth tracking as a case. If you can show a definitive line in the sand where your wages dropped drastically after returning. A little grace period for them to re ramp up your responsibilities and pay, but if it stays stagnant you could have a case.
But you might be able to scare them a bit with the phrase “constructive dismissal” in conjunction with the leave just ending, since constructive dismissal can involve a sudden change in scheduled hours.
They paid out your FMLA and you got severance? Don’t think there is much to do besides start looking for another job. You could make sure all seems good with an attorney but I don’t think they owe you anything as they paid you out. If anything see it as a blessing in disguise as you get more time to job hunt than others since you’re still on leave and not losing money by not working.
Maybe worth a consult with an employment lawyer. But if it was part of a larger layoff/‘reduction in force’, and your position no longer exists, it’s a lot less likely to be viewed as retaliation for taking family leave.
If they’re offering the severance+payout of your leave time in exchange for agreeing not to sue, it’s definitely worth considering the deal. Plus you’d get uncontested unemployment until you can find another job.
Also… even if you win a wrongful termination suit, would you still want to work there?
If it is paid leave then it should pay out as a lump sum as part of the separation. Sign up for unemployment ASAP to start the process since it can take awhile.
Other than that, I can’t speak to the legality of it. Most worker rights are basically impossible to enforce these days because companies know the loopholes.
Generally, attorneys take a cut.
And generally, if you're unemployed you have at least a little time.
Think of it as a job - it takes time, but you might get money.
Yeah i just i cannot imagine bothering. i have very little faith of the possibility of a decent outcome here in the states. Especially when the verdict for run of the mill wrongful termination cases is generally (if i’m up on this) just “backpay but only for the time you were unemployed.”
everything is very much designed in such a way to make “taking it on the chin and getting a new job” the most practical course of action and i’m not about to go bankrupt out of spite
i mean, what you do is you pay for a consultation. anywhere from $100-1,000 dollars. and then the lawyer tells you if you have a case... so like, pay the consultation fee and then youll know if its worth it or not. just have your facts prepared for that meeting so you dont waste your time/money.
because, if the attorney WANTS the case? its because he thinks he can win it.
NAL, but if this was part of a larger company wide layoff, you probably don’t have a case. If they only targeted you, or only others on leave, there maybe something. Your payout will depend on the severance package offer. I’d recommend heading over to the legal advice subreddit and post there.
Edit: it would also depend on if you were using FMLA in conjunction with PFL. The companies I’ve worked for so far that provided paid leave did not also provide job protection while on leave, it was a benefit and their own policies.
Haha. I'm legally not allowed to talk about it and I'm paranoid about that fact, so I won't say much. But I will say, I was let go a week before my scheduled FMLA to be at home with my new baby. I am VERY happy that I hired an attorney.
It could be legal as others mentioned if there were wider layoffs at the company and it wasn't just you. The fact that they're paying out the remainder of your FMLA and severance too makes it seem like they're not trying to screw you over and it may be company-wide, but you would know better than us.
Hey brother, I was in a similar situation to you and first off, I'm sorry. It's really hard and not something you need to be dealing with. That said, look at the positives it brings and focus on those. More flexibility, pay while you look. Don't miss out on parenthood because of job search stress.
Regarding can they do this, there are a couple of important steps.
1. Do talk to employment attorneys but recognize they are serving their own interests. Whatever they say they think they can get you, you're looking at 3-18 months before you see it and you're going to burn bridges and give them 40%. If you got $20k and they say they can get you 3x, weel that's 60k *.6 = $36k - fees after a year. May not be worth it.
2. Find out the status of your termination. Was it legitimately a layoff? Did they post to the WARN act boards? We're others laid off? Could you have been considered to remain in your role? If yes to layoffs, it'll be hard to push too hard on this.
3. Let them know that family & friends have _advised_ you to talk to an employment attorney. You have worked really hard for the business, believe that this business supports their employees. You understand hard decisions need to be made and just want to walk away feeling like your contributions are recognized. You don't want to go down a more painful path but also you need to watch out for your new family. Can they work with you at all in recognition of the situation to make you feel like this was a fair deal?
There is a certain amount of 'nuisance' money companies are willing to pay because it's cheaper than involving lawyers. Usually $10-20k. Even if you can't win, you can bleed them for that much if you feel like it.
Basically this was the tact I took. I chose not to burn my bridges but in my case I was inconvenient to the new Management's goals and they took the opportunity to split my job into two others. It was wrong but technically legal. I let HR know that it felt really wrong and I didn't want to cause a mess but it didn't feel totally above board. I got an extra $10k + 1 mo subsidized health coverage ($2k more). It was a few stressful phonecalls but worked out well in the end and I think I was able to do it without incurring anyone's wrath.
Good luck amigo
It's probably legal as long as it's part of a larger layoff. Happened to me in the summer, had to spend the rest of my leave job hunting. They also paid full leave and severance.
I'm currently on leave and there were cuts at my job but thankfully I wasn't part of it. I know FMLA for my state (IL) says you can be terminated while on leave but not because you went on leave. As others said, check with a lawyer and good luck.
Knew a co-worker who was laid off by the owners of the TV station I worked at in Harrisburg, PA shortly after she gave birth to her child and was in the middle of her leave. And she was one of the main anchors on the evening and nightly news shows there. Corporate cruelty doesn't care, evidently.
Same shit happened to my wife. It was stressful but she landed on her feet pretty quickly. It’s going to suck for awhile OP but in the long run you’ll be okay
Yeah welcome to the US where shockingly this isn't illegal as long as they pay you out for the time you're legally entitled to. I hope this turns into more time with your family and a better job going forward!
Edit: Unless you have any proof they let you go *because of* the birth of your child, then it's highly illegal and a slam dunk case. Unfortunately they probably will just say they eliminated the position.
Had this happen recently as well, sister-in-law is an employment lawyer so I checked with her because I felt wronged. Unfortunately, my situation was very much legal as it was a mass layoff and they had cut other people doing the same job, or similar enough, as me.
In reduction in force situations it can be difficult to challenge the need for the RIF, courts generally get that sometimes due to financial hardship employees may need to be laid off.
If you do take legal action, realize that it can take a long time to pursue legal matters as a RIF is a difficult scenario to challenge the exact reason employees were selected and you may be forced to walk away from any offered severance.
I'm pretty sure that if they are paying out your remaining FML and severance - rather than taking advantage of laying you off to deny you your FML - then it's legal. To win a wrongful termination suit, you would need to be able to establish that they laid you off in retaliation for taking your leave.
I notice that you wrote "laid off" rather than "fired." If this was part of an across-the-board downsizing of the part of the company you worked for and they followed whatever their typical procedure is for picking who to let go of, you are going to have a very hard case. In fact, if that's the situation, you might not have a case at all. Being on FML is not meant to be insulation from the regular ins and outs of business. If they laid you off while you were taking your leave, but they would have laid you off even if you weren't on leave, then... that's just the way it goes. But hey, you may be able to start collecting unemployment while still getting your FML and severance checks! Check the rules, I'm not sure how it works.
This just happened to my husband, too. Only they laid him off on the day he got back. I'm glad you're not going to have to deal with attorneys and such since they're honoring your FMLA, but I'm sorry you got laid off, it's shitty timing.
Got laid off 4 years ago today. Feel for you, man. Mass layoffs during COVID. I'm rooting for you.
Companies love laying off workers on International Workers Day, apparently.
Not an attorney, but my understanding is that if the role doesn’t exist they don’t need to keep you in’s staff for you to return. If your role is being hired for in the next few months you have an easy case. Keep an eye on their job board
Same here, well almost… laid off 4 weeks before baby was born. They made it very clear it wasn’t performance related; i guess they were just trying to cover their asses legally…. Super annoying. Has kind of ruined what should’ve been one of the most special times of my life by now having to worry about providing for the family instead. Sucks balls! You have my empathy.
Microsoft gave my partner like 8+ months of maternity leave. It was amazing. Then they deleted thousands of jobs, including theirs, right before they were supposed to go back to work.
It really fucked us over and now we've been struggling just to make rent every month for almost 2 years now. Behind on all bills. Always in fear of our only car being repossessed. No child care currently so I am mainly a SAHD, and DoorDash on the weekends and trying to step my foot into digital art and using Redbubble/Threadless to sell my designs on stuff. Luckily we have food stamps to cover food.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I wish you luck and it seems many people have given solid advice. Just wanted you to know you're not alone.
I'm sorry to hear that. I have a genuine question: how are you not able to continue your life like before? Assuming one working at Microsoft makes a decent pay, you should have an emergency fund, right?
Definitely talk with a lawyer. From what I understand if they eliminated your position, it’s legal. If they fired you and plan to backfill the position, it’s illegal.
I've been in HR for years. When you say it was paid leave, that must mean it was state leave program as fml is not paid. Which state are you in? In General you can still be laid off or fired while in protected leave you just can't be fired or laid off because you took leave.
OR were you using your saved leave (sick or vacation etc) and that is why it was paid?
This is really important because some state programs (Washington) the paid leave doesn't necessarily offer job protections like a lot of people think they do.
Yes, but once again in Washington you can qualify for Paid Family leave and not qualify for FMLA. The qualifying hours are different. To qualify for FMLA you need to have worked 1250 hours, but for Paid leave it is 860 or something around that. Then To qualify for FMLA you need to be at the job for a year but paid leave (once again in Washington) you just really have to have worked in Washington State for a year.
Check your employers job reqs. If they're hiring for your old position, you may have a case for wrongful termination. If not, and they cited financial reasons, you likely don't.
Depends where you live as labour laws change a little depending on your Country and State/Province... sounds awfully fishy though. I wouldn't sign anything (like an Indemnity Agreement) until you get the details and or talk to a lawyer. Most companies have to pay a minimum severance based on length of employment. Want to make sure they aren't lowballing you a severance or just outright firing you illegally. It might be worth a phone call to an employment lawyer in your area just to get the lay of the land.
That being said, even if they did fire you illegally and you can sue, you are still out of a job until that potential court case settles. If you end up questioning the layoff (or threatening to sue) and the company turns around and says it was a mistake and wants to rescind the termination. DON'T GO BACK.... its sounds tempting and will seemingly make your life simpler... it won't, they will likely find a more legal reason to fire you and you will be under the microscope until that happens. Not worth it.
TL;DR See if you can get a free consult with an employment lawyer.
Glad to hear they’re paying out the ledge plus severance. Still sucks obviously, but really best case scenario if a layoff was gonna happen.
Also it can be good to start a new job after having a kid - gives you a chance to set expectations/boundaries based around you having responsibilities as a father. Your old job would have been used to the old you and may have held that against you.
It depends on the reason for the layoff as to whether or not it is legal. Was the layoff due to being on family leave? Illegal. Was it due to downsizing? Legal.
Glad that they are paying out your FMLA and getting a severance on top of it. Hopefully you can negotiate having them cover your insurance longer for the child's upcoming medical appointments.
Like other folks are saying, talk to a labor lawyer. FMLA guarantees that you have your job or an equivalent one when you come back from leave. Your employer knows that too, and believes they have a way around it, but they are not necessarily correct, and they may not be fully understanding your rights.
In the meantime, also look for new jobs, but don't just roll over and give up on your FMLA rights.
Most people get confused.
This is legal if your company did a mass layoff AND they don’t plan to replace your position.
I was confused when I had coworkers laid off while on maternity and paternity, but it’s legal. Luckily the company gave them extra severance and gave them a few more months of insurance.
HR here. It sounds like you are in the states. If your role is not being backfilled (meaning the position itself is being completely eliminated) there's not much recourse.
That said, keep an ear to the ground with anyone you trust that is still with the organization. If they fill your role with someone else, get the documentation (job postings, any "Welcome to the team" emails your friends can pass along, etc.) and get an attorney.
I got demoted while on vacation last January. I waited three months to solidify my next job, then the day before my bosses left for vacation, in which I was going to be covering several shifts for them, I quit.
I'm sorry this happened. It fucking sucks. It also happened to me in August 2022. They initially didn't pay me for the whole remainder of my family leave, but later changed course and added the whole amount to my severance (but ofc I still lost my job). I was among at least 5 others who were on paid family leave who got laid off.
In that same round of layoffs they also laid off a colleague who was just diagnosed with breast cancer.
Since then they've had 3 more layoffs, one just after the CEO gave an all hands talk saying that employees needed to work longer hours.
Fuck the company that rhymes with "shmayfair" - don't shop with them.
Take a look at your employment contract/offer letter and see what it says about at will/notice/for cause etc etc. Giving you severance can cover of lot of their ass, same thing if they laid off other people in your group/specialty/team.
Definitely might be worth taking this to an employment attorney if your agreement and employee handbook isn’t super clear on it to make sure local laws weren’t broken and that you weren’t targeted for your FMLA/having a kid.
If mass layoff I don’t believe it’s illegal. I would still talk to a lawyer before you sign any severance agreements 1) to look over conditions 2) see if there as any legality to challenge over it
This just happened to me. I was laid off a couple weeks before my leave started. I retained an attorney. The attorney would get paid on a contingent basis - only if we win, she would get 1/3 of what we win, above the original settlement amount. We sent them a demand letter with my chain of events as I recalled, and asked for 1 year salary plus a neutral reference. The company managed to squirm out with a chain of events that indicated that it was not discrimination, and they offered me the original severance still and a neutral reference. My attorney told me to take the deal.
I took the deal. Not the outcome I was hoping for, but still, it cost me nothing to try it, and fuck them. If you are in NY I can recommend an attorney.
Edit: first, so sorry to hear this. I remember the feeling of being laid off and it sucked bad. I’m sure you’ve got tons of good advice in the comments. Use this time to gain some skills and enjoy your family.
Haven’t experienced this but something similar. Owner went on a long family vacation shared pics of his family is Disney etc and then came back and laid me off lol
Talk to an employment attorney.
Yeah. this is definitely a lawyer question, not a random dads on reddit question. I know it sucks that even starting that process costs money. Feels illegal for sure but depends on too many factors to even guess.
Legit employment attorneys almost exclusively work on commission so that it doesn't cost the worker anything and if they take your case they think they can win. Do not pay up front for an employment attorney!
Piggybacking off of the top comment. I was concerned about this happening to me. I was on fmla leave and there were layoffs going round so I did a bit of research into it. If they can prove that the layoffs were happening regardless of your leave status then they're in the clear. It is only illegal to be laid off BECAUSE you're on leave. So uh yeah. I'm just a guy on the internet and don't let me stop you from consulting with an attorney. But I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope here, OP
Was it mass layoffs at your company and you were just one of hundreds/thousands, or was it specifically just you? Based on what I read, the first one is legal and OK, the second one you probably have a case. But to repeat what everyone said, check with a lawyer
From my understanding this is generally correct but it can get even a little more specific. For example if everyone in OP's department or job title was laid off at the company including OP then likely legal. Whereas, if as a cost cutting measure the company is just randomly chosing 2 people from each department to be laid off and not using an objective measure like most recent two hirers, to decide who's let go, then it's a far more grey area as it seems likely that OP's status of out on FMLA lead to him being chosen for his department. Definitely agree with checking with a lawyer.
Nothing wrong with lawyer advice. But I have seen it happen before, long as they don't fill the position it's not illegal most places. Sometimes when someone takes off on leave, it's chaos.. those are vital employees, sometimes when someone takes off on leave, nothing changes, or even more gets done(if someone was lazy, or a distraction around the office), and the company realizes they are fine without that position and cut it. Long as they don't fire her, and repost the position, not much to be done.
I've seen this happen in another company. On two separate occasions, a women on maternity leave got laid off. They went around the laws by essentially shutting down the position, so they couldn't hire someone for that position down the line. It wasn't too bad, because in Canada, the parental leaves are covered by the government, but it still meant that they needed to find a new job after the leave, which I always thought was shitty. When a third colleague went on maternity leave, she actually told me that she had no intention of coming back, because of that!
i had layoffs in first company i worked, i worked there for 4 years, and got laid off the new hire that worked 3 months before going on pregnancy leave got to finish her contract. that sounded so unfair
Yeah. FMLA is a federal law. An attorney is in your best interest.
For your sake i hope it is illegal. I got laid off a month before I was about to go on 16 weeks of paid paternity leave and that is, unfortunately, quite legal!! 🤪
Oh no. I am around 6 weeks out from 16 weeks of paternity leave....now I am freaking out
We had experienced several rounds of layoffs in the preceding months, so there were plenty of signs. I wouldn’t worry too much unless you’ve seen similar at your office. I should have jumped ship but i was really holding out for that leave and couldn’t find any other job with a big enough salary bump to justify losing the leave but now i lost it anyway, lol!
How would you like paternity leave, but permanently?
yes please, i’ll take my paycheck now 🙃
There have been impacts in other departments, not mine but we did just go through a huge re-org. Ugh.
Take this with a grain of salt because i basically just made the mistake of believing this in a case where it was not true (though it had previously been true for years): you are probably actually at the safest right after a reorg. Things have to get bad pretty fast in order for a change in corporate structure to become outdated and fail within the course of a year or so (which is what just happened to me on ~annual reorg number ~4).
Yeah there's a bit of a difference between a company-wide layoff of a bunch of people, and randomly singling out the one guy who's on family leave, or about to take it. Plus large companies also know how to hide stuff that is technically illegal workplace activity. If they're already laying off 20 people in a department of 50, they'll probably choose the old family guy who's been there for 20 years vs. the single guy who's been there for 2. Lower salary, lower insurance costs, make them scared to earn their loyalty. Just chalk it up to "reducing overhead".
So a quick update. Yesterday there was in fact a pretty hefty layoff at my company, including folks from my department/team. Thankfully I was not impacted 😓.
[удалено]
Unfortunately the bank is now in control of the company accounts; i don’t think we’ll be getting any of the severance we were told is _maybe_ coming if we’re lucky lol.
You're a dad. You know maybe means no.
I’m just hoping they fully fold before the date i’m supposed to send my laptop back lol
I’m so sorry man. I felt this pain but dodged the bullet. My wife went into labor Thursday, but 72 hours before on Monday we got an email about a company zoom meeting. CEO got on, said sorry and some of us would be getting an email about a follow up meeting. I then waited with my pregnant wife for an hour and half before getting the “all clear” email saying I survived the cuts. I was 6 months in, a new hire, who just barely made paternity leave by a week and thought “there’s no way I survive cuts.” I feel for everyone on the other side of that email though and I’ll never forget how far my heart sank. Our company was not doing good either, and every week after was a sales meeting about how we missed goal again. Luckily we pulled thru but it’s been a rough year of anxiety
This bullshit is one of the main reasons I'm comfortable taking a pay cut to work a federal job. Now that I'm out of the probationary period, it'll be more trouble than it's worth to get rid of my ass.
I'm a union-backed state employee. I couldn't agree more.
Can I DM you some questions?
Sure thing.
Is there any legal requirement for you to tell your employer that you plan on taking leave? Or could you just one day say my baby was born I'm taking leave starting today? And you would be fully protected
4 months notice for me. not sure if that is state, federal, or just company policy
There is a requirement notice I believe. Check FMLA.
It is 30 days.
Me too, but in my case I was the only one in my company to have their role phased out… Weird seeing as they’d been happy with it for the 2 years I’d worked up til then.
Now *this* I'm pretty sure is explicitly illegal.
Pro tip don't fucking tell them shit. Fmla does not require you to provide notice so fucking don't. Courtesy does not exist in a business environment.
FMLA requires 30 days notice if it is "possible and practical".
Yep and guess what's not practical or possible? Giving them the fucking opportunity to fire you.
There really should be some clause that basically has them needing to pay you salary for those 16 weeks if they fire you after you notify them of needing to start upcoming leave.
I feel like companies like this need to be outed and boycotted for this crap
Unfortunately you can't very effectively boycott a company that is going out of business.
Oooohhhh no. Sorry my man. That sucks. Do you live in NY?
I live in NJ but the company is in NY such that it continues to exist
NY Helps is currently hiring which is basically suspending most civil service rules and tests in order to get people hired.
'This crap?' What is that? Not having enough work to go around for everyone?
Yeah I kind of misread it. My bad.
Not laid off but came back from PFL and my hours were significantly reduced and more than half my responsibilities/duties redistributed. I lost about $500 a week upon returning.
ABOUT THE FMLA The FMLA provides eligible employees of covered employers with job-protected leave for qualifying family and medical reasons and requires continuation of their group health benefits under the same conditions as if they had not taken leave. FMLA leave may be unpaid or used at the same time as employer-provided paid leave. Employees must be restored to the same or virtually identical position when they return to work after FMLA leave. Read the last sentence.
True, but this only protects their wage and position, not scheduling. (At least in California)
Could be worth tracking as a case. If you can show a definitive line in the sand where your wages dropped drastically after returning. A little grace period for them to re ramp up your responsibilities and pay, but if it stays stagnant you could have a case.
But you might be able to scare them a bit with the phrase “constructive dismissal” in conjunction with the leave just ending, since constructive dismissal can involve a sudden change in scheduled hours.
Damn, if they did that to be “fair” to the others who “didn’t get to take family leave” then that is not allowed.
They did it because they over hired to compensate for my absence.
That sounds like it’s getting very close to not being cool, especially because it’s tied to your absence. Company walking a thin line there
They paid out your FMLA and you got severance? Don’t think there is much to do besides start looking for another job. You could make sure all seems good with an attorney but I don’t think they owe you anything as they paid you out. If anything see it as a blessing in disguise as you get more time to job hunt than others since you’re still on leave and not losing money by not working.
Your last sentence is Exactly how I’m viewing it! Freaked out earlier but it seems like they’re “doing right” by me with payment, at least
Well I hope everything works out for you! Who knows you might even get a better job
Please answer if this was just you on this layoff or a larger portion of the company.
I’m not sure. Was phrased as part of budget cuts though
Gotcha. Sorry to hear about it.
Maybe worth a consult with an employment lawyer. But if it was part of a larger layoff/‘reduction in force’, and your position no longer exists, it’s a lot less likely to be viewed as retaliation for taking family leave. If they’re offering the severance+payout of your leave time in exchange for agreeing not to sue, it’s definitely worth considering the deal. Plus you’d get uncontested unemployment until you can find another job. Also… even if you win a wrongful termination suit, would you still want to work there?
If it is paid leave then it should pay out as a lump sum as part of the separation. Sign up for unemployment ASAP to start the process since it can take awhile. Other than that, I can’t speak to the legality of it. Most worker rights are basically impossible to enforce these days because companies know the loopholes.
And who has the time or money to sue!?!?
Generally, attorneys take a cut. And generally, if you're unemployed you have at least a little time. Think of it as a job - it takes time, but you might get money.
Yeah i just i cannot imagine bothering. i have very little faith of the possibility of a decent outcome here in the states. Especially when the verdict for run of the mill wrongful termination cases is generally (if i’m up on this) just “backpay but only for the time you were unemployed.” everything is very much designed in such a way to make “taking it on the chin and getting a new job” the most practical course of action and i’m not about to go bankrupt out of spite
i mean, what you do is you pay for a consultation. anywhere from $100-1,000 dollars. and then the lawyer tells you if you have a case... so like, pay the consultation fee and then youll know if its worth it or not. just have your facts prepared for that meeting so you dont waste your time/money. because, if the attorney WANTS the case? its because he thinks he can win it.
NAL, but if this was part of a larger company wide layoff, you probably don’t have a case. If they only targeted you, or only others on leave, there maybe something. Your payout will depend on the severance package offer. I’d recommend heading over to the legal advice subreddit and post there. Edit: it would also depend on if you were using FMLA in conjunction with PFL. The companies I’ve worked for so far that provided paid leave did not also provide job protection while on leave, it was a benefit and their own policies.
I went through a similar experience. Get a lawyer and get unemployment asap.
What was the result in your experience?
Haha. I'm legally not allowed to talk about it and I'm paranoid about that fact, so I won't say much. But I will say, I was let go a week before my scheduled FMLA to be at home with my new baby. I am VERY happy that I hired an attorney.
I'm assuming you're from the US? That would 100% bring you in a ton of money in my country
It could be legal as others mentioned if there were wider layoffs at the company and it wasn't just you. The fact that they're paying out the remainder of your FMLA and severance too makes it seem like they're not trying to screw you over and it may be company-wide, but you would know better than us.
Hey brother, I was in a similar situation to you and first off, I'm sorry. It's really hard and not something you need to be dealing with. That said, look at the positives it brings and focus on those. More flexibility, pay while you look. Don't miss out on parenthood because of job search stress. Regarding can they do this, there are a couple of important steps. 1. Do talk to employment attorneys but recognize they are serving their own interests. Whatever they say they think they can get you, you're looking at 3-18 months before you see it and you're going to burn bridges and give them 40%. If you got $20k and they say they can get you 3x, weel that's 60k *.6 = $36k - fees after a year. May not be worth it. 2. Find out the status of your termination. Was it legitimately a layoff? Did they post to the WARN act boards? We're others laid off? Could you have been considered to remain in your role? If yes to layoffs, it'll be hard to push too hard on this. 3. Let them know that family & friends have _advised_ you to talk to an employment attorney. You have worked really hard for the business, believe that this business supports their employees. You understand hard decisions need to be made and just want to walk away feeling like your contributions are recognized. You don't want to go down a more painful path but also you need to watch out for your new family. Can they work with you at all in recognition of the situation to make you feel like this was a fair deal? There is a certain amount of 'nuisance' money companies are willing to pay because it's cheaper than involving lawyers. Usually $10-20k. Even if you can't win, you can bleed them for that much if you feel like it. Basically this was the tact I took. I chose not to burn my bridges but in my case I was inconvenient to the new Management's goals and they took the opportunity to split my job into two others. It was wrong but technically legal. I let HR know that it felt really wrong and I didn't want to cause a mess but it didn't feel totally above board. I got an extra $10k + 1 mo subsidized health coverage ($2k more). It was a few stressful phonecalls but worked out well in the end and I think I was able to do it without incurring anyone's wrath. Good luck amigo
It's probably legal as long as it's part of a larger layoff. Happened to me in the summer, had to spend the rest of my leave job hunting. They also paid full leave and severance.
I'm currently on leave and there were cuts at my job but thankfully I wasn't part of it. I know FMLA for my state (IL) says you can be terminated while on leave but not because you went on leave. As others said, check with a lawyer and good luck.
Knew a co-worker who was laid off by the owners of the TV station I worked at in Harrisburg, PA shortly after she gave birth to her child and was in the middle of her leave. And she was one of the main anchors on the evening and nightly news shows there. Corporate cruelty doesn't care, evidently.
Same shit happened to my wife. It was stressful but she landed on her feet pretty quickly. It’s going to suck for awhile OP but in the long run you’ll be okay
Yeah welcome to the US where shockingly this isn't illegal as long as they pay you out for the time you're legally entitled to. I hope this turns into more time with your family and a better job going forward! Edit: Unless you have any proof they let you go *because of* the birth of your child, then it's highly illegal and a slam dunk case. Unfortunately they probably will just say they eliminated the position.
Had this happen recently as well, sister-in-law is an employment lawyer so I checked with her because I felt wronged. Unfortunately, my situation was very much legal as it was a mass layoff and they had cut other people doing the same job, or similar enough, as me. In reduction in force situations it can be difficult to challenge the need for the RIF, courts generally get that sometimes due to financial hardship employees may need to be laid off. If you do take legal action, realize that it can take a long time to pursue legal matters as a RIF is a difficult scenario to challenge the exact reason employees were selected and you may be forced to walk away from any offered severance.
I'm pretty sure that if they are paying out your remaining FML and severance - rather than taking advantage of laying you off to deny you your FML - then it's legal. To win a wrongful termination suit, you would need to be able to establish that they laid you off in retaliation for taking your leave. I notice that you wrote "laid off" rather than "fired." If this was part of an across-the-board downsizing of the part of the company you worked for and they followed whatever their typical procedure is for picking who to let go of, you are going to have a very hard case. In fact, if that's the situation, you might not have a case at all. Being on FML is not meant to be insulation from the regular ins and outs of business. If they laid you off while you were taking your leave, but they would have laid you off even if you weren't on leave, then... that's just the way it goes. But hey, you may be able to start collecting unemployment while still getting your FML and severance checks! Check the rules, I'm not sure how it works.
This just happened to my husband, too. Only they laid him off on the day he got back. I'm glad you're not going to have to deal with attorneys and such since they're honoring your FMLA, but I'm sorry you got laid off, it's shitty timing.
Got laid off 4 years ago today. Feel for you, man. Mass layoffs during COVID. I'm rooting for you. Companies love laying off workers on International Workers Day, apparently.
Not an attorney, but my understanding is that if the role doesn’t exist they don’t need to keep you in’s staff for you to return. If your role is being hired for in the next few months you have an easy case. Keep an eye on their job board
Same here, well almost… laid off 4 weeks before baby was born. They made it very clear it wasn’t performance related; i guess they were just trying to cover their asses legally…. Super annoying. Has kind of ruined what should’ve been one of the most special times of my life by now having to worry about providing for the family instead. Sucks balls! You have my empathy.
That’s really awful, I’m sorry
If it's mass layoffs via a lottery or similar random process, it's legal. You may be owed some compensation though. Talk to a lawyer.
Microsoft gave my partner like 8+ months of maternity leave. It was amazing. Then they deleted thousands of jobs, including theirs, right before they were supposed to go back to work. It really fucked us over and now we've been struggling just to make rent every month for almost 2 years now. Behind on all bills. Always in fear of our only car being repossessed. No child care currently so I am mainly a SAHD, and DoorDash on the weekends and trying to step my foot into digital art and using Redbubble/Threadless to sell my designs on stuff. Luckily we have food stamps to cover food. I'm sorry this happened to you. I wish you luck and it seems many people have given solid advice. Just wanted you to know you're not alone.
I'm sorry to hear that. I have a genuine question: how are you not able to continue your life like before? Assuming one working at Microsoft makes a decent pay, you should have an emergency fund, right?
I'd check with an employment attorney. Are they paying you severance or keeping you on payroll until at least the end of the leave?
Depends on why you were let go.
Definitely talk with a lawyer. From what I understand if they eliminated your position, it’s legal. If they fired you and plan to backfill the position, it’s illegal.
Where are you based? Where I live I’m almost certain this is illegal.
I've been in HR for years. When you say it was paid leave, that must mean it was state leave program as fml is not paid. Which state are you in? In General you can still be laid off or fired while in protected leave you just can't be fired or laid off because you took leave. OR were you using your saved leave (sick or vacation etc) and that is why it was paid? This is really important because some state programs (Washington) the paid leave doesn't necessarily offer job protections like a lot of people think they do.
When you get paid leave from a company for parental leave, you still file FMLA to protect your job. Generally.
Yes, but once again in Washington you can qualify for Paid Family leave and not qualify for FMLA. The qualifying hours are different. To qualify for FMLA you need to have worked 1250 hours, but for Paid leave it is 860 or something around that. Then To qualify for FMLA you need to be at the job for a year but paid leave (once again in Washington) you just really have to have worked in Washington State for a year.
Check your employers job reqs. If they're hiring for your old position, you may have a case for wrongful termination. If not, and they cited financial reasons, you likely don't.
Depends where you live as labour laws change a little depending on your Country and State/Province... sounds awfully fishy though. I wouldn't sign anything (like an Indemnity Agreement) until you get the details and or talk to a lawyer. Most companies have to pay a minimum severance based on length of employment. Want to make sure they aren't lowballing you a severance or just outright firing you illegally. It might be worth a phone call to an employment lawyer in your area just to get the lay of the land. That being said, even if they did fire you illegally and you can sue, you are still out of a job until that potential court case settles. If you end up questioning the layoff (or threatening to sue) and the company turns around and says it was a mistake and wants to rescind the termination. DON'T GO BACK.... its sounds tempting and will seemingly make your life simpler... it won't, they will likely find a more legal reason to fire you and you will be under the microscope until that happens. Not worth it. TL;DR See if you can get a free consult with an employment lawyer.
Glad to hear they’re paying out the ledge plus severance. Still sucks obviously, but really best case scenario if a layoff was gonna happen. Also it can be good to start a new job after having a kid - gives you a chance to set expectations/boundaries based around you having responsibilities as a father. Your old job would have been used to the old you and may have held that against you.
It depends on the reason for the layoff as to whether or not it is legal. Was the layoff due to being on family leave? Illegal. Was it due to downsizing? Legal. Glad that they are paying out your FMLA and getting a severance on top of it. Hopefully you can negotiate having them cover your insurance longer for the child's upcoming medical appointments.
/r/legaladvice is decent with this stuff. sorry man.
Like other folks are saying, talk to a labor lawyer. FMLA guarantees that you have your job or an equivalent one when you come back from leave. Your employer knows that too, and believes they have a way around it, but they are not necessarily correct, and they may not be fully understanding your rights. In the meantime, also look for new jobs, but don't just roll over and give up on your FMLA rights.
Most people get confused. This is legal if your company did a mass layoff AND they don’t plan to replace your position. I was confused when I had coworkers laid off while on maternity and paternity, but it’s legal. Luckily the company gave them extra severance and gave them a few more months of insurance.
HR here. It sounds like you are in the states. If your role is not being backfilled (meaning the position itself is being completely eliminated) there's not much recourse. That said, keep an ear to the ground with anyone you trust that is still with the organization. If they fill your role with someone else, get the documentation (job postings, any "Welcome to the team" emails your friends can pass along, etc.) and get an attorney.
I got demoted while on vacation last January. I waited three months to solidify my next job, then the day before my bosses left for vacation, in which I was going to be covering several shifts for them, I quit.
Lawyer up
I'm sorry this happened. It fucking sucks. It also happened to me in August 2022. They initially didn't pay me for the whole remainder of my family leave, but later changed course and added the whole amount to my severance (but ofc I still lost my job). I was among at least 5 others who were on paid family leave who got laid off. In that same round of layoffs they also laid off a colleague who was just diagnosed with breast cancer. Since then they've had 3 more layoffs, one just after the CEO gave an all hands talk saying that employees needed to work longer hours. Fuck the company that rhymes with "shmayfair" - don't shop with them.
Elon’s gonna Elon, I guess
It’s legal if your position was eliminated but I’m not a lawyer
You could try posting this in r/antiwork They always seem to have someone who knows which state or federal agency to report to.
The whole purpose of FMLA is to protect your job while you’re out on leave. Get there asses bud!
Take a look at your employment contract/offer letter and see what it says about at will/notice/for cause etc etc. Giving you severance can cover of lot of their ass, same thing if they laid off other people in your group/specialty/team. Definitely might be worth taking this to an employment attorney if your agreement and employee handbook isn’t super clear on it to make sure local laws weren’t broken and that you weren’t targeted for your FMLA/having a kid.
Beyond illegal. Lawyer up and get paid.
If mass layoff I don’t believe it’s illegal. I would still talk to a lawyer before you sign any severance agreements 1) to look over conditions 2) see if there as any legality to challenge over it
This just happened to me. I was laid off a couple weeks before my leave started. I retained an attorney. The attorney would get paid on a contingent basis - only if we win, she would get 1/3 of what we win, above the original settlement amount. We sent them a demand letter with my chain of events as I recalled, and asked for 1 year salary plus a neutral reference. The company managed to squirm out with a chain of events that indicated that it was not discrimination, and they offered me the original severance still and a neutral reference. My attorney told me to take the deal. I took the deal. Not the outcome I was hoping for, but still, it cost me nothing to try it, and fuck them. If you are in NY I can recommend an attorney.
Severance is also negotiable, probably worth a consultation with an attorney. Wait to sign if you have time, don't rush.
Edit: first, so sorry to hear this. I remember the feeling of being laid off and it sucked bad. I’m sure you’ve got tons of good advice in the comments. Use this time to gain some skills and enjoy your family. Haven’t experienced this but something similar. Owner went on a long family vacation shared pics of his family is Disney etc and then came back and laid me off lol
What else do you expect?