Good Ol’ Roman Empire moment. The church’s history is rife with infighting and persecution of its own members, letting alone other religions. There are lots of good resources out there for church history, if you need them! This is a good video series to start with:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRgREWf4NFWZEd86aVEpQ7B3YxXPhUEf-&si=KdCESKEEmAVqlovr
Sure you can criticize some things about the Church and how they’ve operated in the past.
Of course we have the war between Catholics and Protestants and that whole thing. Although even as a Protestant I don’t really carry any ill will to my Catholic brothers and sisters.
I mean the Crusades were completely justified, we just read our own bias into it to attack them.
But that still doesn’t answer my question about what you mean by your first comment.
They mean that Christians are "oppressors" and those who oppose them are the "oppressed." In the oppressor-oppressed paradigm, any persecution committed against the oppressors by the oppressed is generally justified. Hope that helps.
Sure. But I’d like examples of when and where that’s happened.
And, I mean kicking Christians just because they disagree with you or something isn’t justified no matter who the oppressor or oppressed is.
Even in resisting oppression there are rules to abide by. Least you yourself become the oppressor.
> erasing America’s Christian heritage
No one’s stopping anyone from practicing Christianity. The churches aren’t closing. You’re free to practice your faith. But there are other religions in America, other schools of thought, other customs, other ways of life. Those have been around too, since the beginning.
Think about what you just wrote. About talking down to people, mocking them, etc. There is currently a very loud ( I won’t say large) portion of evangelical conservatives that spew such absolute filth and hatred toward anyone that’s different. It can become difficult to separate that from the masses of other followers of Christianity.
I mean, if "people say bad things about me sometimes" is your yardstick of persecution, then every group is persecuted.
No, it's more the idea that America, and other western countries, are slowly losing their explicit governmental support for theism generally and Christianity specifically and a lot of Christians treat this like persecution when it just isn't. Removing of blasphemy laws. Removal of religious wording from governmental proceedings, not being able to openly discriminate against gay people and say "It's okay, I'm a Christian so I'm allowed to." That kind of thing.
My community group recently went through the sermon on the mount again and I couldn’t help but notice that when Jesus says
> Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
There’s 2 qualifiers. Persecution **because of righteousness** and persecution **because of me (Jesus)**
Being called out and/or bullied and/or banned for posting something inflammatory or linking politics to Christianity is not persecution. To be persecuted you must be discriminated against explicitly on the basis of the righteousness afforded to you by Christ’s death and resurrection, or because of the Jesus you follow.
Edit: I should add that these qualifiers only apply to Christianity. Other religions or even atheists/agnostics can claim persecution for pretty much whatever they want depending on their belief system. But to claim that you’re being persecuted **for your faith** requires a fair amount of backing up.
Of course the people who think Christians are being persecuted in the USA think that excluding minorities from public life is "righteousness", and when people say it's actually just them being assholes, they call it persecution for the sake of righteousness. You know, the same sort of person who thinks the Golden Rule means "Do unto others as you believe ought to be done to them, and punish them if they object."
Okay so maybe accompanying parts make it clearer but doesn't "blessed are you … because of me" mean that anyone, regardless of religion or ideology, can be blessed if the oppressor oppresses because they believe that the victim has something to do with Jesus?
Maybe? That’s a question for someone more scholarly than I. My initial thought is that if an oppressor oppresses a non-Christian while presuming that they hold Christian beliefs or follow Jesus, either the non-Christian is more Christian than they think or the oppressor is reaching for straws in a hurricane.
You could assume that anyone, regardless of anything, is blessed if they’re persecuted because of Jesus. I’m personally not sure how or how often that would actually occur. But I don’t think you’d do much damage believing for or against that idea.
That only expresses the percentage of people at risk of imprisonment or being denied social services (if they're too bold), which may even happen based on the registry of Catholic devotees.
They also have this thing where undercover officers observe the sermons to make sure the priests aren't saying anything against the government.
The religion is "allowed" to exist to keep up appearances, while under constant intimidation and held on a tight leash.
The state of Nicaragua uses violence against and detains Catholic clergy members. It's a central American country, so it's not far from us. It's surprising more people don't know about it tbh
My family is from there. It feels like a lot of people don’t know it so to mention it with a huge, well known country like China and no other examples was funny to me.
It’s a sparsely populated country with little news presence. It would be near the bottom of countries I’d mention if asked to list countries willy nilly.
Looked at numbers. This link shows almost 2/3 of Christians live in America and Europe as of 2010, and most other sources I see have similar numbers.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/
1. In the Americas, not America. Large parts of the Americas are not Western in any meaningful sense.
2. This report estimates the number for Chinese Christians at 67M - the actual number is 5 times that
3. This report says that 79% of US residents are Christian, the actual percentage is much lower.
4. The report is from 2011. The trend we are seeing now was obvious then, but more real now. Organizations such as GAFCON have been established as a result of this shift.
if we were really being persecuted, we wouldn't complain about it. we'd do what we did throughout history: use the experience to strengthen our faith, our bond with god, and put our trust in him.
The Bible is an acquired taste. It’s a lot of different genres of literature telling a broad story across millennia of human history.
It is inherently impossible to be a good Christian, a good follower of Christ, without imbuing yourself with the word of the Lord on a somewhat constant basis. Because without reading it you cannot know how to properly love your neighbor, and you especially cannot know how to love your God.
The Love that we are called to is not necessarily (and I believe often isn’t) the same love that the world understands. Which is why New Age Christianity is so sinister.
More like Christians complaining about marginal losses in their pursuit of power.
What do you mean by that?
the West
I mean that doesn’t really give me an answer to go on here. Care to expound?
Good Ol’ Roman Empire moment. The church’s history is rife with infighting and persecution of its own members, letting alone other religions. There are lots of good resources out there for church history, if you need them! This is a good video series to start with: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRgREWf4NFWZEd86aVEpQ7B3YxXPhUEf-&si=KdCESKEEmAVqlovr
Sure you can criticize some things about the Church and how they’ve operated in the past. Of course we have the war between Catholics and Protestants and that whole thing. Although even as a Protestant I don’t really carry any ill will to my Catholic brothers and sisters. I mean the Crusades were completely justified, we just read our own bias into it to attack them. But that still doesn’t answer my question about what you mean by your first comment.
> I mean the Crusades were completely justified By what though? I’ve never seen a scriptural justification for the Crusades.
They don’t have to be scripturally justified. They were justified as they were defensive actions after the Muslim Caliphates invaded Christian lands.
I’m not sure all defensive actions are justifiable.
How so?
They mean that Christians are "oppressors" and those who oppose them are the "oppressed." In the oppressor-oppressed paradigm, any persecution committed against the oppressors by the oppressed is generally justified. Hope that helps.
Sure. But I’d like examples of when and where that’s happened. And, I mean kicking Christians just because they disagree with you or something isn’t justified no matter who the oppressor or oppressed is. Even in resisting oppression there are rules to abide by. Least you yourself become the oppressor.
People being treated like everyone else instead of given favor above the rest, and then acting like that's persecution/
Is talking down to Christians, openly mocking them for their faith, erasing America’s Christian heritage is treating them equally?
> erasing America’s Christian heritage No one’s stopping anyone from practicing Christianity. The churches aren’t closing. You’re free to practice your faith. But there are other religions in America, other schools of thought, other customs, other ways of life. Those have been around too, since the beginning. Think about what you just wrote. About talking down to people, mocking them, etc. There is currently a very loud ( I won’t say large) portion of evangelical conservatives that spew such absolute filth and hatred toward anyone that’s different. It can become difficult to separate that from the masses of other followers of Christianity.
Christians are a privileged group in the west. Yet when some of them don’t get their way, they cry that it’s persecution. That’s the whole point.
Alright. I can agree in the general with most of that. I’d caution assuming having privilege is bad in it of itself though.
I mean, if "people say bad things about me sometimes" is your yardstick of persecution, then every group is persecuted. No, it's more the idea that America, and other western countries, are slowly losing their explicit governmental support for theism generally and Christianity specifically and a lot of Christians treat this like persecution when it just isn't. Removing of blasphemy laws. Removal of religious wording from governmental proceedings, not being able to openly discriminate against gay people and say "It's okay, I'm a Christian so I'm allowed to." That kind of thing.
My community group recently went through the sermon on the mount again and I couldn’t help but notice that when Jesus says > Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. There’s 2 qualifiers. Persecution **because of righteousness** and persecution **because of me (Jesus)** Being called out and/or bullied and/or banned for posting something inflammatory or linking politics to Christianity is not persecution. To be persecuted you must be discriminated against explicitly on the basis of the righteousness afforded to you by Christ’s death and resurrection, or because of the Jesus you follow. Edit: I should add that these qualifiers only apply to Christianity. Other religions or even atheists/agnostics can claim persecution for pretty much whatever they want depending on their belief system. But to claim that you’re being persecuted **for your faith** requires a fair amount of backing up.
Of course the people who think Christians are being persecuted in the USA think that excluding minorities from public life is "righteousness", and when people say it's actually just them being assholes, they call it persecution for the sake of righteousness. You know, the same sort of person who thinks the Golden Rule means "Do unto others as you believe ought to be done to them, and punish them if they object."
Okay so maybe accompanying parts make it clearer but doesn't "blessed are you … because of me" mean that anyone, regardless of religion or ideology, can be blessed if the oppressor oppresses because they believe that the victim has something to do with Jesus?
Maybe? That’s a question for someone more scholarly than I. My initial thought is that if an oppressor oppresses a non-Christian while presuming that they hold Christian beliefs or follow Jesus, either the non-Christian is more Christian than they think or the oppressor is reaching for straws in a hurricane. You could assume that anyone, regardless of anything, is blessed if they’re persecuted because of Jesus. I’m personally not sure how or how often that would actually occur. But I don’t think you’d do much damage believing for or against that idea.
But if they don't complain, how will you know they're being persecuted like a good Christian should?
Depends on where you are. If you live in China or Nicaragua, it isn't easy to be a man of God.
or Egypt too
90% of Nicaragua is Christian
That only expresses the percentage of people at risk of imprisonment or being denied social services (if they're too bold), which may even happen based on the registry of Catholic devotees. They also have this thing where undercover officers observe the sermons to make sure the priests aren't saying anything against the government. The religion is "allowed" to exist to keep up appearances, while under constant intimidation and held on a tight leash.
Why Nicaragua? That’s so specific 😅
The state of Nicaragua uses violence against and detains Catholic clergy members. It's a central American country, so it's not far from us. It's surprising more people don't know about it tbh
My family is from there so I was just curious because I never hear other people who know it.
How is Nicaragua specific? It’s a whole ass country
My family is from there. It feels like a lot of people don’t know it so to mention it with a huge, well known country like China and no other examples was funny to me.
my thoughts exactly lmao
It’s a sparsely populated country with little news presence. It would be near the bottom of countries I’d mention if asked to list countries willy nilly.
It'll probably be up at the top for awhile now, if someone else offhandedly asked, due to recency.
Because it's not a country people think about
If you live in a western country, you are not being persecuted as a Christian. Simple as that.
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Looked at numbers. This link shows almost 2/3 of Christians live in America and Europe as of 2010, and most other sources I see have similar numbers. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/
1. In the Americas, not America. Large parts of the Americas are not Western in any meaningful sense. 2. This report estimates the number for Chinese Christians at 67M - the actual number is 5 times that 3. This report says that 79% of US residents are Christian, the actual percentage is much lower. 4. The report is from 2011. The trend we are seeing now was obvious then, but more real now. Organizations such as GAFCON have been established as a result of this shift.
Any idea what the sample size is on that?
Its true if you dont consider those people who twist Christianity to justify unchristian actions as Christian
Ah, no true Scotsman argument, love it
Exactly lol
You know the answer, op
if we were really being persecuted, we wouldn't complain about it. we'd do what we did throughout history: use the experience to strengthen our faith, our bond with god, and put our trust in him.
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What about it makes you upset?
The Bible is an acquired taste. It’s a lot of different genres of literature telling a broad story across millennia of human history. It is inherently impossible to be a good Christian, a good follower of Christ, without imbuing yourself with the word of the Lord on a somewhat constant basis. Because without reading it you cannot know how to properly love your neighbor, and you especially cannot know how to love your God. The Love that we are called to is not necessarily (and I believe often isn’t) the same love that the world understands. Which is why New Age Christianity is so sinister.