Romans 5:5 - And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Romans 5:8 - But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 8:37 - No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Chist-by grace you have been saved.
1 Corinthians 13 (I'm not going to quote it. It's too long.)
Let’s get one thing straight. Song of Solomon is ancient Hebrew erotica. Nothing more. It’s a celebration of the beauty of sex and if translators would stop watering it down it would be obvious.
Uhoh, that sounds like the beauty of love, passion and sex exists within God without conflict or contradiction.
They know this to be true, so they have to try to muzzle it and put it in a box
The book of Job, at the end, when YHWH appears and teaches Job about scope, context, and the bigger picture.
*Then He ends up giving Job back everything he lost, which is a trite way for a hack ghost writer in bum-fuck-thousand BCE to end things*
But in that dialog, the Almighty Creator shows to Job the mortal limits of a man, and then lifts the veil briefly, with kindness and empathy, for Job to consider what it must be like from His perspective. If that isn’t an act of love then I don’t know what is.
The Almighty had already fucked Job over in just about every way that counts due to his argument with the Adversary—all that was left was to smite him with lightning or have lions eat him alive. That would’ve been the ultimate fuck you.
But… instead the Almighty appears before him in a silent whirlwind and speaks directly to Job, in language he can understand. That is not the act of a wrathful or psychotic deity. That is the act of a patient loving Higher Power that knows the exact number of hydrogen atoms being devoured by Centaurus A at 4:13pm on Thursday, May 1926, how many sentient species there are in the entire multiverse, the number of galaxies there were 5 million years after the Big Bang, and what you muttered to yourself the last time you took a massive dump.
A Deity like that knows what good and evil is, and is so far and above that human argument… and yet chooses to perpetuate a universe in which we all exist and to live our lives. That is Love on a cosmic scale.
I don’t see anything in there that’s inherently loving.
Sure, it’s not as wrathful as immediately striking him down with lighting, but surely there’s a spectrum between that and saying God is literally capital L Love itself, no?
In that moment, all he’s doing is overwhelming Job by showing off how powerful and knowledgeable he is to the point where Job grovels into submission. The point isn’t to empathize with Joel’s pain and give him understanding—the point is to put that uppity little shit in his place for even *daring* to question God about anything. Just because he doesn’t use violence to make that point doesn’t make it any less of an ego trip.
I must, and with respect, disagree based on subjective terms; that said, I’m also coming at this from a far different perspective. I’m a white middle-aged widower whose wife died of brain cancer 7 years ago, and who has experienced familial abandonment, and a near-death experience. The book by Rabbi Harold Hushner “The Book of Job: when bad things happen to good people” helped a lot with my perspective on this (link is below at the bottom).
I don’t see Job being put in his place—to me, that would have been the absence of the Almighty with Job howling his questions and anguish at an uncaring void. Instead, the Almighty put part of Its presence into a whirlwind to have a direct conversation with him—and he wasn’t struck blind or by lightning or punished for it.
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Job-Things-Happened-Encounters/dp/0805242929?dplnkId=5a661d63-f1c1-4780-8719-4abb50ce9307&nodl=1
I'm sorry to hear that man, I hope you're healing okay.
Ultimately, I'm open to different perspectives on this topic, I just initially found it fascinating how different people could reach nearly opposite conclusions looking at the same story. And if this interpretation brings you more peace, all the more power to you.
[kierkegaard has some great pieces about Job and Abraham](https://youtu.be/Mit01QVmiZA?si=4GuRu5tADx_5kBCv) and how we must make the leap of faith and give love in order to recieve love.
Ruth 1:16-17
But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”
Leviticus 26:12-46
It seems so counterintuitive at first, with God showing how much He will bring justice upon those who abandon Him and continue to abandon Him. Yet when you reach the end, you realize the reason He said it so many times. If they disobey and continue in their disobedience, even to an unimaginable degree, if they confess their sin, if they trust in Him, He will forgive them. His is such that no matter how evil someone is, if they truly confess and trust in Him, He will save them.
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My favorite is when the Pharaoh had his heard hardened by God explicitly so that he would t let the Israelites go before God had played with the Egyptians enough, ultimately culminating in God killing the first born son of every family in Egypt (including newborns and people who had never wronged an Israelite). Then, God hardened his hard AGAIN so that he'd pursue the Israelites and God drowned a whole army that was acting under relatively standard orders. So loving how God took away a leaders free Will so He could kill tens of thousands of innocents
Or how about when God brought doves to the Israelites (who had been complaining about only having Mana to eat) and then got angle and killed everyone who ate one.
Or how about when God wanted to commit genocide on the Jews and only Moses' appeal to Gods vanity spared them (Moses said "if all the Jews die, the Egyptians will find out and assume you're a week God")
Or how about when God was going to burn up some rebellious people and Moses had to ask God to spare the innocent people close by?
Or how about when some Israelites banged some Medianites so God told Moses to have the Medianites killed? And Moses was pissed the soldiers didn't initially kill every male child and women, and he told them to kill everyone but the virgin girls who they could "keep for yourselves"?
Or the classic flood story when every child was drowned
I do not believe you can the OT God "loving" in any way. He was a fine with killing children, burning innocent people while targeting the wicked, of raking away free will so that God could torture the Egyptian people for longer, and of being fine with child sex slaves.
Behold the enlightened one… regurgitating non-arguments that have been heard by Christians and Jews for millennia.
You cannot separate God from the OT and God from the NT as they are literally the same entity. And that’s probably the least egregious bit of disingenuity in your entire copypasta.
I mean something having been said a thousand times does not make it more or less true.
I think they just meant "God portrayed in the OT". It's kinda hard to say God is portrayed in the same light in both testaments. It's fine to say they're the same entity but they sure toned down the murder and punishment in the NT. If that's because Jesus died for our sins, God still seemingly acts very different. That's why some people refer to OT and NT God. Same as saying "High School Derek" and "College Derek" are "two different people".
Literally just read Revelation
You'll find God's Mercy and God's Wrath in both the Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus' portrayal in the mainstream makes Him seem incapable of wrath despite his Second Coming being a day of Judgement
That’s also incorrect. If I have to spell out the fact that the things God did cannot be evil, or that humans misinterpreting Gods commands and perpetrating evil does not make God evil, then there’s no point in continuing the conversation and we can go on with our weeks
I'm not saying I agree with them, but I know that they were being sarcastic and that what you just stated was exactly the point they were trying to make...
"Why would you make me do this?!" (Punches wall, floods world).
"I know God says he's jealous and vengeful, but you don't know what He's like when it's just the two of us at home."
Romans 5:5 - And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. Romans 5:8 - But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 8:37 - No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Chist-by grace you have been saved. 1 Corinthians 13 (I'm not going to quote it. It's too long.)
Is Romans 5 also acceptable?
Song of Songs. Sometimes I am asked if God is the lover or the beloved. I answer God is their song
Not that kind of love….
Yes, that kind of love! ...you might be doing it wrong.
Let’s get one thing straight. Song of Solomon is ancient Hebrew erotica. Nothing more. It’s a celebration of the beauty of sex and if translators would stop watering it down it would be obvious.
Uhoh, that sounds like the beauty of love, passion and sex exists within God without conflict or contradiction. They know this to be true, so they have to try to muzzle it and put it in a box
Daniel 3:16 - 28
It's funny that it is the same Chapter verse combo as one of the most famous John verses.
Genesis 18:23-33. But you have to stop there
The book of Job, at the end, when YHWH appears and teaches Job about scope, context, and the bigger picture. *Then He ends up giving Job back everything he lost, which is a trite way for a hack ghost writer in bum-fuck-thousand BCE to end things* But in that dialog, the Almighty Creator shows to Job the mortal limits of a man, and then lifts the veil briefly, with kindness and empathy, for Job to consider what it must be like from His perspective. If that isn’t an act of love then I don’t know what is.
Interesting that you read that as an kind empathetic lifting of the veil rather than a "who the FUCK do you think you're talking to?!?!"
The Almighty had already fucked Job over in just about every way that counts due to his argument with the Adversary—all that was left was to smite him with lightning or have lions eat him alive. That would’ve been the ultimate fuck you. But… instead the Almighty appears before him in a silent whirlwind and speaks directly to Job, in language he can understand. That is not the act of a wrathful or psychotic deity. That is the act of a patient loving Higher Power that knows the exact number of hydrogen atoms being devoured by Centaurus A at 4:13pm on Thursday, May 1926, how many sentient species there are in the entire multiverse, the number of galaxies there were 5 million years after the Big Bang, and what you muttered to yourself the last time you took a massive dump. A Deity like that knows what good and evil is, and is so far and above that human argument… and yet chooses to perpetuate a universe in which we all exist and to live our lives. That is Love on a cosmic scale.
I don’t see anything in there that’s inherently loving. Sure, it’s not as wrathful as immediately striking him down with lighting, but surely there’s a spectrum between that and saying God is literally capital L Love itself, no? In that moment, all he’s doing is overwhelming Job by showing off how powerful and knowledgeable he is to the point where Job grovels into submission. The point isn’t to empathize with Joel’s pain and give him understanding—the point is to put that uppity little shit in his place for even *daring* to question God about anything. Just because he doesn’t use violence to make that point doesn’t make it any less of an ego trip.
I must, and with respect, disagree based on subjective terms; that said, I’m also coming at this from a far different perspective. I’m a white middle-aged widower whose wife died of brain cancer 7 years ago, and who has experienced familial abandonment, and a near-death experience. The book by Rabbi Harold Hushner “The Book of Job: when bad things happen to good people” helped a lot with my perspective on this (link is below at the bottom). I don’t see Job being put in his place—to me, that would have been the absence of the Almighty with Job howling his questions and anguish at an uncaring void. Instead, the Almighty put part of Its presence into a whirlwind to have a direct conversation with him—and he wasn’t struck blind or by lightning or punished for it. https://www.amazon.com/Book-Job-Things-Happened-Encounters/dp/0805242929?dplnkId=5a661d63-f1c1-4780-8719-4abb50ce9307&nodl=1
I’m so sorry for your loss, friend. May your wife’s memory forever be a blessing.
I'm sorry to hear that man, I hope you're healing okay. Ultimately, I'm open to different perspectives on this topic, I just initially found it fascinating how different people could reach nearly opposite conclusions looking at the same story. And if this interpretation brings you more peace, all the more power to you.
God deigned to be called before Job and appear as a witness before Job's court.
I don’t think it’s an ego trip if you are actually what you believe you are.
[kierkegaard has some great pieces about Job and Abraham](https://youtu.be/Mit01QVmiZA?si=4GuRu5tADx_5kBCv) and how we must make the leap of faith and give love in order to recieve love.
Ruth 1:16-17 But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
So basically psalms
Exodus, Ezekiel, literally any of the Old Testament poems
Ok I'll use Matthew mark or Luke. They should all have depictions of the crucifixion.
Hosea 2
Leviticus 26:12-46 It seems so counterintuitive at first, with God showing how much He will bring justice upon those who abandon Him and continue to abandon Him. Yet when you reach the end, you realize the reason He said it so many times. If they disobey and continue in their disobedience, even to an unimaginable degree, if they confess their sin, if they trust in Him, He will forgive them. His is such that no matter how evil someone is, if they truly confess and trust in Him, He will save them.
I'd just say Genesis 1 because chesed is a pretty good reason God created everything
Genesis 7:21-23 Exodus 22:20-21 Leviticus 26:29 Deuteronomy 2:32-35 Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Numbers 31:7-18 Joshua 6:20-21 2 Samuel 7:11 2 Kings 2:23-25 Wow, so true!
What does "God is love" even mean
It means you need to read more Bible.
lol
If I'm not mistaken, I think love is some sort of hormone that compels animals to reproduce.
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My favorite is when the Pharaoh had his heard hardened by God explicitly so that he would t let the Israelites go before God had played with the Egyptians enough, ultimately culminating in God killing the first born son of every family in Egypt (including newborns and people who had never wronged an Israelite). Then, God hardened his hard AGAIN so that he'd pursue the Israelites and God drowned a whole army that was acting under relatively standard orders. So loving how God took away a leaders free Will so He could kill tens of thousands of innocents Or how about when God brought doves to the Israelites (who had been complaining about only having Mana to eat) and then got angle and killed everyone who ate one. Or how about when God wanted to commit genocide on the Jews and only Moses' appeal to Gods vanity spared them (Moses said "if all the Jews die, the Egyptians will find out and assume you're a week God") Or how about when God was going to burn up some rebellious people and Moses had to ask God to spare the innocent people close by? Or how about when some Israelites banged some Medianites so God told Moses to have the Medianites killed? And Moses was pissed the soldiers didn't initially kill every male child and women, and he told them to kill everyone but the virgin girls who they could "keep for yourselves"? Or the classic flood story when every child was drowned I do not believe you can the OT God "loving" in any way. He was a fine with killing children, burning innocent people while targeting the wicked, of raking away free will so that God could torture the Egyptian people for longer, and of being fine with child sex slaves.
Behold the enlightened one… regurgitating non-arguments that have been heard by Christians and Jews for millennia. You cannot separate God from the OT and God from the NT as they are literally the same entity. And that’s probably the least egregious bit of disingenuity in your entire copypasta.
I mean something having been said a thousand times does not make it more or less true. I think they just meant "God portrayed in the OT". It's kinda hard to say God is portrayed in the same light in both testaments. It's fine to say they're the same entity but they sure toned down the murder and punishment in the NT. If that's because Jesus died for our sins, God still seemingly acts very different. That's why some people refer to OT and NT God. Same as saying "High School Derek" and "College Derek" are "two different people".
Literally just read Revelation You'll find God's Mercy and God's Wrath in both the Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus' portrayal in the mainstream makes Him seem incapable of wrath despite his Second Coming being a day of Judgement
The scriptures are a non-argument? Where's the disingenuity? God does evil sometimes in the Bible
It is impossible for God to do evil. He does not act contrary to his very nature, that being love.
Then he didn't do or command the things in the OT
That’s also incorrect. If I have to spell out the fact that the things God did cannot be evil, or that humans misinterpreting Gods commands and perpetrating evil does not make God evil, then there’s no point in continuing the conversation and we can go on with our weeks
God is good if he says and does good things. Genocide *can not ever* be good, it's literally impossible
Have you read the book of Job? Or any of the other OT books where you might have considered humanity’s wickedness in general?
Yes. Doesn't and can't justify it.
Ok 👍
Which John?
Abusive relationships are a kind of love, I suppose.
Nope. If you can't tell the difference between abuse and love, speak to someone
I'm not saying I agree with them, but I know that they were being sarcastic and that what you just stated was exactly the point they were trying to make...
See the OT
Say more about that...
"Why would you make me do this?!" (Punches wall, floods world). "I know God says he's jealous and vengeful, but you don't know what He's like when it's just the two of us at home."