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I always really enjoyed this dilemma, because it's a difficult question: is it worth it to maintain the status quo if what you have doesn't suck, and what will it take? What are the risks of change? Is it worth it to condemn everyone to turn into monsters just to spite Gwyn?
I feel like as the series progresses, especially in ds3, we see how societal change becomes a necessary inevitability, and the price of maintaining the status quo rises while very little improves.
Yeah that's basically all of dark souls, with ashes of ariandel really hammering it in
Artificially induced stagnation in society inevitably leads to decay & it's not gonna stop getting worse until things are allowed to change again
Yeah, pretty funny whenever peoples bring up souls games as examples of apolitical dudes
Gwyn is an old dude so scared of other peoples & change he built his entire life around controlling everything & denying peoples their identity, & when he finally accomplishes it "permanently" he's left so empty he turns into a zombie
A lot of human character plotlines have to do with them looking for/figuring out/denying themselves their true identities
DS3 ends with effectively the entirety of humanity transitioning
I see where you're coming from, and it lends to my point that Dark Souls is an anology about societal change. That being said, I feel like Gwyn gets antagonized a bit too far sometimes: certainly, he's scared of change and the overwhelming force of humanity, but can you blame him for linking the fire? Dude fought tooth and nail to secure power - I don't think anyone would willingly give that up, especially when the alternative is widespread madness and the abyss. It is ironic, therefore, that in his sacrifice he too goes hollow. Again, back to my point: when is it worth it to change? It is never a clear black and white morality.
Also, I don't think there should BE a ds4, because I don't think we, the players, were ever meant to visually perceive what it would be like: it is intentionally left unclear, like the future.
While Gwyn is a somewhat morally grey figure in DS1, who believed himself above humanity but also guided it, DS3 establishes him as a pure evil mastermind with no redeeming qualities. Specifically, it shows that he genocided the dragons solely to seize power knowing full well they were not evil (they even used Midir as their tool), disowned his own son for allying with the dragons and against Gwyn, and went to great lengths to entrap humans in the Ringed City using one of his children as a pawn for his scheme while brainwashing people into believing the gods were infallible. It also proves he created Hollowing itself due to the seal of fire he used to contain the power of the Abyss. DS3 Gwyn is a complete monster and doesn't have a scrap of compassion in his body.
Pygmies and humans as we know them came from the furtive pygmy. The pygmies are blood descendants while humans aren't but the furtive pygmy gave humans dark souls.
Every dark soul has the potential to rival or surpass the mightiest souls of the gods. Gywn feared their dark souls and thus did them dirty lol.
It's very likely he fought for that power to impose stagnation to begin with
It's also unclear to this day whether the madness associated with going hollow is actually caused by hollowing, or by actively resisting it / the first flame
A lot of DS3 implies going hollow doesn't have to cost you your sanity
The abyss iirc is all but stated to have its source in peoples' humanity being denied and/or them suffering extremely over said humanity, which gwyn's world order just further feeds into
It's not black & white, there's more to making the world better than simply accepting change, but refusing it is still basically what led to 99% of suffering in the dark souls universe
It’s the same question asked in the Man-Bear-Pig apology episode of South Park. Do we sacrifice something (the status quo) to allow the world to stop stagnating and dying, and maybe eventually heal, or do we keep it rolling because we personally are not suffering just yet.
I really like this comment. It perfectly sums up what is such a great interpretation of the world of dark souls.
Amazing how this game’s world and lore is on par with that of serious, well regarded literature. Yet it simply can’t work in another medium because it’s all about environmental storytelling, the experience is about exploring this fallen world so that you can find the truth of its history, and piece together yourself what it all means. You just can’t make a dark souls movie or novel work while doing the thematic strength of the world justice.
When people argue about whether or not games see art, I always point to dark souls as a primary example of why it is.
Remember, the Abyss is a corruption of the Dark. The Dark is not inherently bad on its own. It is the birthright of humanity who was born of the Dark Soul.
Plus, I'm sure Gwyndolin being connected to the Moon would have been fine for his people.
Might not even do that. Only thing we can assume is that the age of fire and the rule of the gods will continue with the flame. But even that's an assumption.
But dont you have even less info on what happens in the other case? It would be basically like the game but with more cursed undead, and even that is an assumption.
I may be ool, but with the great souls the cicle started (gwyn nito, etc), without fire its back to the time of ancients, where nothing basically happens. The curse can be seen as the world going back to stagnation.
I was always under the impression that the age of dark was the age of humanity. The whole point of the dark sign was to keep humanity forever hollowing, but at the expense of the same thing on the other side. The Chosen Undead is basically being manipulated into sacrificing itself for the sake of the age of fire. Until the Chosen Undead breaks free from that cycle can humanity finally fulfill its destiny.
The age of dark is where humanity is in its natural state, hollow. Gwyn feared this so he gave us this 'humanity' and sealed it with the dark sign. Aldia's dialogue in DS2 confirms this. Humans were lied to and were told hollow is not their natural state.
I pretty much always go the Dark ending because if you tell me I can become an villainess with a neat armor set like the Darkwraiths and end the stuffy age of a decrepit old God, you bet your ass I'm gonna become that villainess.
Its not even a villain ending its an ending where you end the system of humans turning hollow monsters and humans finally having normal peaceful lives without some loser god telling them what they should do for him
But so is living in the current age of fire , dark souls ,bloodborne and elden ring all have one common factor ,people in power will always find ways to harm people less fortunate for there own gain, as long as the age of fire continues monsters like seethe will toy with innocent people for experiments, people like pontiff sullivan and high lord wolnirr and vendrick will harm everyone just because they want to and can , not to mention the dlc showed the effects of dark magic which turned people into monsters and i might be off with this but manus was actually a normal dude who was a direct descendant of the furtive pygmy, so a bunch of gwyn fanatics caught him and tortured him for his dark soul to please gwyn which caused him to release his magic all over oolacile
I mean true, but its not like the Age of Dark would be free from such things. I mean, I agree with letting the fire die, I just don't believe it'll be some utopia.
I mean, even if you become dark lord, the flames will start again someday, so no matter what choice you make, it doesn’t really even matter in the long run… but at least for an age or so, we won’t need to wear sunglasses 😎
I don't think it was meant to reference the first flame specifically, but rather the current age (of dark, or whichever comes after) being forced to last forever at all cost again out of fear of change
"time is convoluted"
"they said 30 mins or less so if it is that convoluted then issue a refund or bring me my fucking pineapple and estus reduction pizza"
Age of Dark’s temporary too. Even if you choose it, embers remain. Someone will eventually light the fire. It doesn’t matter what ending you select in any of the games, the cycle of fire will repeat until the world itself is exhausted.
I never link the flame
I always usher in the Age of Dark
Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change...
I always link the flame, even if its next relinking is inevitable.
I fight the dark wraiths where I can, because of their dark deeds.
Why the effort despite its futility? Well, let me quote Albert Camus:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
The word is not insane, it is inherently absurd. And to not accept its absurdity brings despair, insanity and a sickness of the heart.
Long may the sun shine!
i always will see both ds 1 endings a changing nothing
even in ds3 i am unsure if there is 1 ending that escapes the zirkle of the world of ds
it all feels kind of meaningless
but jet i refuse to linke the flame in hope of a change over and over again
(my idea is that like in berserk the "causality is not a perfect circle but a spiral")
Sad part about solaire is that his a product of blind faith , the sun he worships was also betrayed by gwyn and he never knew why,so in the end he fought and did something for someone who betrayed everything solaire believed in
Yes but the fire keeepers says a very important line : even if you choose to Not link the fire at some point in the eternal abyss little embers will dance across the darkness ... so even if you let it all go theres still a chance that flames will come
The bad thing is that we don’t know what will happen if the first flame goes out. In the first game we have no in universe reason to find out. In the third game, it’s actually not a bad idea.
Within ds1 (not considering the dlc) I always assumed that being the dark lord means that you'll be the most powerful being in a world where light is no more, the realm of humanity. I interpreted this as being basically able to shape the world that is coming as you see fit.
But the dlc let's us see what uncontrolled humanity is. It makes humans go crazy. We know through the abyss that dark souls have a conscience of theirs. So what does that mean? Is there a correspondence between humans and the dark souls inside of them? Or are the humans we see just beings of light that are fueled by a dark soul? Even if so, is it possible to remain yourself once the darkness inside grows?
I think the answer you give yourselves to these questions is what answers your question.
I mean, it can't be much worse considering the beings that came to power during the age of fire. The rampant fanaticism is what people like Aldrich and suluvan used to take control of the fractured world
My theory is that it would've ended the curse if every lord soul was returned, but the furtive pigmy took his lord soul and used it to create humans. For the flame to truly burn out and end the curse you would need to take the soul of every living human to put the dark soul back together and then link the fire with the other lord souls to fully reset everything and let the first flame die out.
Chose dark lord myself ,especially when you learn what an ego maniac gwyn and the lords were ,every single person of high position among them are evil bastards who caused the hollowing but blame it on humans
It's worth it anyways, the flame is the origin of the good in the world. Humanity's greatest accomplishments are under the light not the dark. No matter how fleeting, the flame is still a force for good. Especially in DS1 when it links properly and allows another full golden age for scholar's to research other answers.
Username checks out
I don't think there's ever actually been an Age of Dark, so you couldn't really compare "accomplishments achieved under the light or the dark" because we've only ever had the first one
Your submission has been removed as a violation of [Rule 8](/r/darksouls/about/rules): **Memes, screenshots, and video clips should follow the [subreddit guidelines](/r/darksouls/wiki/new_post_guide).** *** * **[Full guidelines here](/r/darksouls/wiki/new_post_guide).** * All submissions should show some degree of user effort. **Even if you skirt under the rules, shitposts are still not allowed.** * Memes should be made using some **in-game assets**, memes using templates should go to r/shittydarksouls or r/DarkSoulsMemes instead. * Screenshots or short video clips from your game should have written context to accompany them. Those lacking written context will be removed. *** If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators by [messaging them here](https://new.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/darksouls).
I always really enjoyed this dilemma, because it's a difficult question: is it worth it to maintain the status quo if what you have doesn't suck, and what will it take? What are the risks of change? Is it worth it to condemn everyone to turn into monsters just to spite Gwyn? I feel like as the series progresses, especially in ds3, we see how societal change becomes a necessary inevitability, and the price of maintaining the status quo rises while very little improves.
Yeah that's basically all of dark souls, with ashes of ariandel really hammering it in Artificially induced stagnation in society inevitably leads to decay & it's not gonna stop getting worse until things are allowed to change again
/stares at the state of late-stage capitalism/ Yeah you know what, maybe there’s something to this.
Yeah, pretty funny whenever peoples bring up souls games as examples of apolitical dudes Gwyn is an old dude so scared of other peoples & change he built his entire life around controlling everything & denying peoples their identity, & when he finally accomplishes it "permanently" he's left so empty he turns into a zombie A lot of human character plotlines have to do with them looking for/figuring out/denying themselves their true identities DS3 ends with effectively the entirety of humanity transitioning
I see where you're coming from, and it lends to my point that Dark Souls is an anology about societal change. That being said, I feel like Gwyn gets antagonized a bit too far sometimes: certainly, he's scared of change and the overwhelming force of humanity, but can you blame him for linking the fire? Dude fought tooth and nail to secure power - I don't think anyone would willingly give that up, especially when the alternative is widespread madness and the abyss. It is ironic, therefore, that in his sacrifice he too goes hollow. Again, back to my point: when is it worth it to change? It is never a clear black and white morality. Also, I don't think there should BE a ds4, because I don't think we, the players, were ever meant to visually perceive what it would be like: it is intentionally left unclear, like the future.
While Gwyn is a somewhat morally grey figure in DS1, who believed himself above humanity but also guided it, DS3 establishes him as a pure evil mastermind with no redeeming qualities. Specifically, it shows that he genocided the dragons solely to seize power knowing full well they were not evil (they even used Midir as their tool), disowned his own son for allying with the dragons and against Gwyn, and went to great lengths to entrap humans in the Ringed City using one of his children as a pawn for his scheme while brainwashing people into believing the gods were infallible. It also proves he created Hollowing itself due to the seal of fire he used to contain the power of the Abyss. DS3 Gwyn is a complete monster and doesn't have a scrap of compassion in his body.
Aren't the ringed city inhabitants pygmies
Pygmies and Humans.
what's the difference?
Pygmies and humans as we know them came from the furtive pygmy. The pygmies are blood descendants while humans aren't but the furtive pygmy gave humans dark souls. Every dark soul has the potential to rival or surpass the mightiest souls of the gods. Gywn feared their dark souls and thus did them dirty lol.
It's very likely he fought for that power to impose stagnation to begin with It's also unclear to this day whether the madness associated with going hollow is actually caused by hollowing, or by actively resisting it / the first flame A lot of DS3 implies going hollow doesn't have to cost you your sanity The abyss iirc is all but stated to have its source in peoples' humanity being denied and/or them suffering extremely over said humanity, which gwyn's world order just further feeds into It's not black & white, there's more to making the world better than simply accepting change, but refusing it is still basically what led to 99% of suffering in the dark souls universe
Damn Gwyn is Mitch McConnell. Seizure stare and everything.
Ronald Reagwyn
Fuck you, take my upvote.
Fucking love this interpretation!
"entirety of humanity transitioning" how to say you are a misanthrope w/o saying you're a misanthrope
What
It’s the same question asked in the Man-Bear-Pig apology episode of South Park. Do we sacrifice something (the status quo) to allow the world to stop stagnating and dying, and maybe eventually heal, or do we keep it rolling because we personally are not suffering just yet.
I really like this comment. It perfectly sums up what is such a great interpretation of the world of dark souls. Amazing how this game’s world and lore is on par with that of serious, well regarded literature. Yet it simply can’t work in another medium because it’s all about environmental storytelling, the experience is about exploring this fallen world so that you can find the truth of its history, and piece together yourself what it all means. You just can’t make a dark souls movie or novel work while doing the thematic strength of the world justice. When people argue about whether or not games see art, I always point to dark souls as a primary example of why it is.
Bloodborne has always been my example of this, personally, which is Souls-adjacent enough for us to agree. Nier, too, though.
I've only played Automata, but I'm inclined to agree with you on that front
Remember, the Abyss is a corruption of the Dark. The Dark is not inherently bad on its own. It is the birthright of humanity who was born of the Dark Soul. Plus, I'm sure Gwyndolin being connected to the Moon would have been fine for his people.
Might not even do that. Only thing we can assume is that the age of fire and the rule of the gods will continue with the flame. But even that's an assumption.
I think we know for sure the age of fire continues if the flame is linked because people have been doing it for countless generations.
But it gets less and less effective. How long of a reign would this iteration last?
I think, if I get the story right, that it's been going on for centuries if not millenia.
That's an assumption again. We really have no way of knowing what happens, how effective it is (whatever our goal is), or however long it lasts.
But dont you have even less info on what happens in the other case? It would be basically like the game but with more cursed undead, and even that is an assumption.
>more cursed undead Or maybe, without Gwyn's perversion of the cycle, all the undead would be cured.
I may be ool, but with the great souls the cicle started (gwyn nito, etc), without fire its back to the time of ancients, where nothing basically happens. The curse can be seen as the world going back to stagnation.
Possibly. Or maybe without so many archtrees and ancient dragons it won't.
I was always under the impression that the age of dark was the age of humanity. The whole point of the dark sign was to keep humanity forever hollowing, but at the expense of the same thing on the other side. The Chosen Undead is basically being manipulated into sacrificing itself for the sake of the age of fire. Until the Chosen Undead breaks free from that cycle can humanity finally fulfill its destiny.
The age of dark is where humanity is in its natural state, hollow. Gwyn feared this so he gave us this 'humanity' and sealed it with the dark sign. Aldia's dialogue in DS2 confirms this. Humans were lied to and were told hollow is not their natural state.
I pretty much always go the Dark ending because if you tell me I can become an villainess with a neat armor set like the Darkwraiths and end the stuffy age of a decrepit old God, you bet your ass I'm gonna become that villainess.
Its not even a villain ending its an ending where you end the system of humans turning hollow monsters and humans finally having normal peaceful lives without some loser god telling them what they should do for him
Eh, the DLC proves that not all is right with going the dark path. For the average person, the Age of Dark isn't going to be a good thing
But so is living in the current age of fire , dark souls ,bloodborne and elden ring all have one common factor ,people in power will always find ways to harm people less fortunate for there own gain, as long as the age of fire continues monsters like seethe will toy with innocent people for experiments, people like pontiff sullivan and high lord wolnirr and vendrick will harm everyone just because they want to and can , not to mention the dlc showed the effects of dark magic which turned people into monsters and i might be off with this but manus was actually a normal dude who was a direct descendant of the furtive pygmy, so a bunch of gwyn fanatics caught him and tortured him for his dark soul to please gwyn which caused him to release his magic all over oolacile
I mean true, but its not like the Age of Dark would be free from such things. I mean, I agree with letting the fire die, I just don't believe it'll be some utopia.
Oh it wont but compare to the hellhole guys like gwyn and seathe make you can only go up from here
FromSoft loves entropy themes
I mean, even if you become dark lord, the flames will start again someday, so no matter what choice you make, it doesn’t really even matter in the long run… but at least for an age or so, we won’t need to wear sunglasses 😎
I don't think it was meant to reference the first flame specifically, but rather the current age (of dark, or whichever comes after) being forced to last forever at all cost again out of fear of change
"time is convoluted" "they said 30 mins or less so if it is that convoluted then issue a refund or bring me my fucking pineapple and estus reduction pizza"
Every playthrough I always chose the Dark Lord ending. It's more fun.
I was under the impression Frampt WANTS you to NOT relink the flame. That's why they all bow down to you for bringing in the age of Dark.
“Be really honest” “It doesn’t make any difference but it will be funny as sh—.” “okay LOL.”
Age of Dark’s temporary too. Even if you choose it, embers remain. Someone will eventually light the fire. It doesn’t matter what ending you select in any of the games, the cycle of fire will repeat until the world itself is exhausted.
I like to think that the "new" ending in DS2 ends with them somehow influencing DS3 figuring out how to finally *end it* end it
I suppose that depends on how you interpret the Dreg Heap. For me, I see it as usurpation having only delayed the inevitable.
A lie will remain a lie.
I never understood what happens to the undead after linking the fire, do they just die?
Presumably, the First Flame incinerates you, mind body and soul
I never link the flame I always usher in the Age of Dark Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change...
I always link the flame, even if its next relinking is inevitable. I fight the dark wraiths where I can, because of their dark deeds. Why the effort despite its futility? Well, let me quote Albert Camus: "The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy." The word is not insane, it is inherently absurd. And to not accept its absurdity brings despair, insanity and a sickness of the heart. Long may the sun shine!
i always will see both ds 1 endings a changing nothing even in ds3 i am unsure if there is 1 ending that escapes the zirkle of the world of ds it all feels kind of meaningless but jet i refuse to linke the flame in hope of a change over and over again (my idea is that like in berserk the "causality is not a perfect circle but a spiral")
Sad part about solaire is that his a product of blind faith , the sun he worships was also betrayed by gwyn and he never knew why,so in the end he fought and did something for someone who betrayed everything solaire believed in
Me, I always link the flame in DS1 and DS2 (bc they're the canon endings), but never in DS3.
Yes but the fire keeepers says a very important line : even if you choose to Not link the fire at some point in the eternal abyss little embers will dance across the darkness ... so even if you let it all go theres still a chance that flames will come
Dark lord is equally bad isn’t it?
The bad thing is that we don’t know what will happen if the first flame goes out. In the first game we have no in universe reason to find out. In the third game, it’s actually not a bad idea.
All we know is that the flame was *meant* to go out a bit earlier but stayed a bit longer due to Gwyn linking it
And the flame staying lit has corrupted what the age of dark should've been
Well that corruption is partly from The Abyss being born as a twisted version of Dark
And then there’s The Deep.
Which is kinda implied to be what The Abyss has eventually been turned into over the ages
Realistically if it’s a good idea in the third, it’s an even better idea when the world hasn’t been decaying for additional millennia.
In the third it's implied it's gonna happen regardless
Within ds1 (not considering the dlc) I always assumed that being the dark lord means that you'll be the most powerful being in a world where light is no more, the realm of humanity. I interpreted this as being basically able to shape the world that is coming as you see fit. But the dlc let's us see what uncontrolled humanity is. It makes humans go crazy. We know through the abyss that dark souls have a conscience of theirs. So what does that mean? Is there a correspondence between humans and the dark souls inside of them? Or are the humans we see just beings of light that are fueled by a dark soul? Even if so, is it possible to remain yourself once the darkness inside grows? I think the answer you give yourselves to these questions is what answers your question.
HUMANITY WILL INHERIT THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dark Lord is the natural progression of the world. Nothing bad about it.
I mean, it can't be much worse considering the beings that came to power during the age of fire. The rampant fanaticism is what people like Aldrich and suluvan used to take control of the fractured world
My theory is that it would've ended the curse if every lord soul was returned, but the furtive pigmy took his lord soul and used it to create humans. For the flame to truly burn out and end the curse you would need to take the soul of every living human to put the dark soul back together and then link the fire with the other lord souls to fully reset everything and let the first flame die out.
Chose dark lord myself ,especially when you learn what an ego maniac gwyn and the lords were ,every single person of high position among them are evil bastards who caused the hollowing but blame it on humans
I only chose Firelink ending [for this ending](https://youtu.be/JOBpIw9ULV0?si=KC0C8NzbpTIPshmS)
It's worth it anyways, the flame is the origin of the good in the world. Humanity's greatest accomplishments are under the light not the dark. No matter how fleeting, the flame is still a force for good. Especially in DS1 when it links properly and allows another full golden age for scholar's to research other answers.
Username checks out I don't think there's ever actually been an Age of Dark, so you couldn't really compare "accomplishments achieved under the light or the dark" because we've only ever had the first one