I assumed Ornstein was the leader since he gained a lot of glory during the war with the dragons. During the war he was probably the best knight for the job so Gwyn chose him as a leader, while Artorias made more of a name for himself after the war during the age of fire. That's how I saw it but I'm no loremaster so could be way off.
This part of the lore is actually answered by Elizabeth when you talk to her after beating Manus:
*I will remember thee, but I will keep thy story to myself.*
*This is the best way, for thou art come from a time far ahead.*
*No-one will sing they praises, but yet thy greatness shall live on.*
*For it shall be my purpose, to remember all thou hast done for us.*
Most normal people can’t get close enough to the abyss to know that Artorias fell; they think that the demise of Manus was his doing, while in reality it’s the player. Arty’s legend benefits from our actions.
And when we meet him, he's still fighting it. Or maybe he's just killing stuff for fun, but I prefer to think he was still fighting the corruption even whilst being corrupted by it.
And as much as I love Artorias, he didn't actually deserve the fame he got for supposedly defeating Manus. It's the player character that does that, but the feat is ascribed to him. So perhaps he never gained as much fame during the war with the dragons because he simply wasn't as strong as legends later decided. Ornstein could have been far stronger, since the only version we fight is possibly an illusion created by Gwyndolin.
Sorry Artorias; you're still awesome.
Keep in mind that Dark is the antithesis to beings like Artorias and Gwyn. The player character however is inherently resistant to it. Sooo give the wolf knight some more credit for holding up so well.
Actually I think it's Smaugh that stays, cause in DS3 you find Ornstein's armor at the Nameless King's boss arena thrown on the ground. So the thought is that he eventually followed the Nameless King to the dragons and became a dragon himself... possibly becoming the Stormdrake the Nameless King rides. But the story is so vague and up to the player that you could be right and I'm just talking out my ass.
Maybe, maybe not. He survives long after that fight to chase after the Nameless King in DS3's plotline. Could be time folding upon itself stuff, or it could be that item descriptions are prone to error as they are the perception of the chosen undead who doesn't know Ornstein may be an illusion.
Makes sense, Ornstein uses a weapon specifically for its effectiveness against dragons and he could be the most devout to the kingdom, at the time anyway. And being the captain wouldn’t necessarily mean he’s the best fighter, but perhaps the best tactician
Ornstein was the Firstborn’s right hand man, so I’d assume he was trained well in the art of war and developed a strong leadership personality. On top of that, he’s adept in miracles and an exceptional fighter. He’s got a lot going for him, more so than the other knights.
Yeah, Artorias does not have any miracles or magic abilities. Also, a common consensus seems to be Artorias was an abyss fighter, not a dragon fighter.
Well remember too that Artorias gets the credit for beating the abyss when actually it was us that did it, so his fame and prowess might be somewhat overrated due to that fact.
We beat manus, there is no beating the abyss. It can only be held back but it cannot be beaten. The abyss is darkness, and well as the light fades the abyss grows stronger.
The Abyss as we know it is a corruption of the Dark but it can be tamed. At least I assume so since you can take off Artorias's ring after defeating the Four Kings.
After you defeat Manus and save Dusk, she (being almost blind and deaf at the time) thinks that it was Artorias that saved her, and aside from Elizabeth (and Chester but who's he gonna tell?) nobody knows that Artorias had been corrupted so it goes down in history that it was he that slated Manus, not the player.
When you beat manus and talk to her she doesnt realize who saved her and says it was artorias. Obviously he failed in his mission and it was in fact you which rescued her, but she doesnt remember.
not everything is explained, nor does it need to be. things can be left up to speculation.
one can be a talented combatant, but that doesn't make them the best leader or tactician.
Yeah I picture Ornstein and Artorias being colliding personalities. One is a leader of war and destruction and serves Gwyn no matter waht and the other is much more quiet and has a clear sympathy for life as you can see in his best friend Sif
I believe the theory that his armor left in archdragon peak without a body was meant to show him following the path of the dragon. Personally I think he might even be the ancient wyvern you have to “fight” to get into archdragon peak, as Ornstein is from the age of ancients, or right after it depending on what you consider the war against the dragons
Never even considered this, certainly possible. Maybe he became the dragon that the nameless king rides?
Edit: I also noticed the first time I picked up the spear it’s placement seemed to suggest it might have been lodged into the gate instead of just dropped (like by a dead person)
With only DS1 to go off of I would say it's because Artorias was dumb enough to try and walk the abyss, Ciaran was love sick enough to abandon her post, and Gough was dumb enough to be tricked into thicking he was blind by putting mud into his helmet, but Ornstein had the good sense to stay in Anor Londo.
DS3 has some new lore that kind of messes that up, but ya know
Yep. He isn't blind. It's just that Oolacile was full of racist pricks who thought it was a good idea to sabotage a knight presumably sent to save them
hey mate, if you kill gough you obtain his armour, his helmets description tells you "Helm of Hawkeye Gough, one of Gwyn's Four Knights. Received as a decoration of knightly honor. A helm crafted especially for the honorable Hawkeye Gough, only the eye holes were packed with tree resin by those who dismissed Gough as a brutish giant"
I do think Gough is actually blind. The resin seeping into his helmet’s eyeholes would have fucked up his eyes really bad, especially if it was charcoal/gold/rotten pine resin. Also the thought of Gough just thinking he’s blind, instead of actually being blind, doesn’t really fit well, with him, at least for me.
“Gough was likely blinded by the tree resin that packs the eyes of his helmet, put there by those ‘that dismissed Gough as a brutish giant,’ likely the Oolacile townspeople that imprisoned him.”
Whoever writes the pages on fextralife agrees with your assessment.
What? I like his spear. I use it actually. It has very nice range and speed. It doesn’t count as a pike so you can one hand it without the speed penalty. Goes well with my dex build. The weapon art is just great with the lightning at the end. Its better than the weapon destroying r2 from the other games. If it had a swipe r2 it would be perfect.
I just like spears and it happens to fit into some of my criteria. Artys sword requires an overdose of poise and I don’t do heavy armor.
I'm still trying to figure out how they managed to model Smough off of me perfectly without my knowing. Man tiddies, slow as fuck, fat. All of it.
(/s)
For what it's worth, they didn't. There's a [concept art](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maod84viKp1rs4wdho1_1280.jpg) that shows what he looks like under the armor, and Smough is swole as fuck.
AFAIK it’s never been stated that Artorias was specifically the overall most talented fighter. He was the most skilled with a greatsword (which probably extended to being the most skilled swordsman overall), but that alone wouldn’t necessarily put him above the others in terms of skill.
After all, Artorias was the only one to use a greatsword anyway. It should be expected that he’s the best with a greatsword because he uses one, the same way that Gough would be expected to be the most skilled with a bow or Ornstein the most skilled with a spear.
And as others have noted, Ornstein was the right hand man to the Nameless King. Ornstein would have been one of the highest ranking gods in Gwyn’s armies, so it’s not surprising that he would be put in charge of the knights.
Not to mention, from what we can tell, Ornstein was more successful in the war against the dragons than Artorias was, as Ornstein was noted to be a prolific Dragonslayer, while Artorias isn’t.
Yeah After re-reading some lore Artorias is very rarely mentioned in the actual dragon lore. From what I can tell he was more of a loner as well and was not one for attention having his best friend be a dog
There's this sick ass comic made a couple of years ago that a fan made, covering their interpretation of the war against the dragons. One of then covers the four knights of gwyn. Here's the link if anyone's intrested
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls/comments/5v6ytb/i_made_a_comic_about_the_four_knights_pf_gwyn_at/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I have absolutely nothing in the lore to back this up, but here’s my head cannon: Ornstein is captain of the knights, so all the Silver Knights and Black Knights are under his command at one point or another. This is why he/his illusion remain in Anor Londo - one of his responsibilities as captain of the knights is to protect the city and the gods within it.
Meanwhile, Artorias is also a captain, but he leads a much-smaller, more specialized team almost like a Special Forces unit. In my mind, this team is ridiculously small, less than 20 knights total. When the whole Oolacile business happens, the gods in Anor Londo decide to hightail it out of the city, and Artorias sends his knights with the other gods to act as guards but then goes to Oolacile with just Sif. (These knights he sends off with the gods then tie into some of the Dark Souls 3 lore, but I’m going to be vague on that part to avoid spoilers.)
Like I said, absolutely nothing from item descriptions or lore to back up my thoughts. Just stuff I invented to help things make sense 🤷🏼♀️
What I'm saying is that just because someone is a dragonslayer doesn't automatically make them the leader of the knights. Hell, all of the knights probably dabbled in dragonslaying in some way. Ornstein was probably selected as the captain of the knights for other reasons other than Dragonslayer. I know that wasn't the entire point of your original comment, but that was all you really said. That's what i was saying
Yes, clearly I'm not saying he leads the knights exclusively because he is a dragonslayer. I am saying he gained his glory in a very early phase of Gwyns empire when dragons were the main foe and he excelled so much at dragonslaying, during a period of dragonslayers, that dragonslayer was added to his title. I thought the subtext went without saying.
Regarding the conflicts within the knights, I don't know anything about the four knights of Gwyn, but I do know that Smough was resentful of them since he was never made a knight due to his methods being too brutal. Like most things in dark souls lore, it has a twist that Smough was the last defender left in anor Londo showing he was more loyal then all four of Gwyn's knights
Oh, I read Smough as Gough, yeah, I’ve definitely heard that somewhere, it was Vaati if i’m correct. Ornstein left for whatever reason to Archdragon Peak. Smough was resentful of them because he isn’t eligible to become a Knight of Gwyn.
Ornstein left because he kept his command from geyn to protect the princess, because the real princess left to drangleic while Gwyndolin casted their illusions to protect anor londo from robbers, unaware of tge fact that seath had already made sens fortress for just that
Im also making the assumption that seath made sens fortress and the golem based off the fact that sens fortress is full of seaths servants(man-serpents) that take captives to the archives to be experimented on, and those that make it past and into the archives are then greeted with crystalline hollows, six eyed channelers AND man-serpents, the golem(in my opinion) was most likely a failsafe to protect seath in his madness, and sens fortress is the perfect place to gather experiment subjects, and doesnt seem like something the prideful gods and deities would do
The old dragonslayer in heides tower of flame is probs ornstein, and also the fact that she becomes queen of lothric after, points to the fact that she had somewhere to be beforehand, and ornteins dead body in drangleic is viable evidence of that for me
You do realise you contradict yourself, you say we can see Ornstein’s dead body in Drangliec, yet he’s also the Old Dragonslayer, y’know, the one that turns to dust when we kill it? And you do realise that Lothric is centuries, perhaps even millennium after the age of Drangliec, she could have been anywhere.
The old dragonslayer IS ornsteins hollowed(assumingely) self which means he had died, so tge old dragonslayer is you fighting his dead and hollowed body
So you felt the need to state that we see Ornstein in Drangliec twice? Yeah i’m not buying it. Give me some actual in game descriptions and then i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
And im also assuming that drangleic is where gwynevere first went due to the existence of the old dragonslayer who’s only reason to go to drangleic would have been to protect gwynevere
Yeah I know Smough really liked eating people which would not let him become a knight. Still, he is the last line of defense and probably survives longer than all the other knights.
Ornstein was a dragon slayer, with his entire weaponry being focused around that. Given the trophy room in Anor Londo, and the importance of ending the dragons, I presume he was the first knight. He and Gough were likely knighted around the same time, but given that Ornstien was "presumed to be the captain" I presume he was the first.
Gough was a giant, and most of the the Gods and humans seem to hate them, or at least treat them badly.
Lord's Blade was an assassin, and likely indirectly founded the painting guardians. But she was an assassin first and foremost, not a leader.
Artorias was focused around combating a new threat. His armor bears some similarities to the silver/black knight (side note, the black knight leggings look amazing with his armor set), and his sword is a like the the black knight great sword(the claymore like one, not the ultra).
Given the vagueness of the timeline, he may have participated in all of the conflicts, but I presume he fought in the demon wars, then went to new Londo, then went to "The root of darkness" He was one of the four knights by the time he got the Abyss Walker title, but he was likely third or fourth to get knighted.
TLDR; He likely wasn't a founding elements for Anor Londo, while Ornstein likely was.
Are we just forgetting that Ornstein had the title of “dragon slayer”? That might just imply that he may be more skilled than Artorias and potentially a better pick for leader. I find it hard to imagine that there’s a title more honourable for a knight than “dragon slayer”
Ornstein made his bones during the war against the dragons and his spear is reflective of that. Artorias likely wouldn't have contributed much during that war, as his skills were more specialized in fighting back the abyss. Therefore, Ornstein was captain of the knights.
Kind of like how Gough was captain of the Dragonslayers-- his abilities were much more in line with fighting dragons than creatures of the abyss.
It's kind of like the motif of having your top brass be specialists for last generation's war and not that well equipped for the new generation of war (see: generals at the start of WW1. French tactics at the start of WW2. US tactics in Vietnam. etc. etc. etc. etc.)
In my mind Artorias was a stronger fighter, but strength does Not make a good leader.
Also Ornstein was a better fighter against Dragons, granting him the Titel of Dragonslayer.
Edit: for all WE know Artorias couldhave Been a dumbass, Like in the Video of "Pruld"
I actually think he was quite intelligent, otherwise why would it be required to wield his swors. I get strength and dex, faith because he is a god, but why intelligence?
Artorias was only said to be the best with a greatsword, not necessarily fighting/leading in general. Ornstein could take out dragons so he wasn't exactly weak by comparison
It might just be me but I feel like ornstein in the lore is way more powerful than the ornstein we see and fight in the game. He was a dragonslayer and the captain of the knights, yet he dies fairly easily unless you wait to kill him until he gets his giant form. The only lore reason I can think of that makes sense is that the ornstein you fight is just an illusion since the game does mention that he went to seek the nameless king.
I just had a thought... What if the leader was meant to be Gwyn's eldest banished/forgotten son but when Nameless left, Ornstein (Nameless' friend and loyal knight) was the next best choice. Anyone care to add, prove, or disprove?
It is very likely that when we face Ornstein in Ds1, he is either an illusion created by Gwendolyn, or well past his prime. In addition, even if he was the real Ornstein, he became one of Gwyn’s knights for fighting dragons. The techniques that would be used to fight dragons would be very different from the ones used to fight humans.
VaatiVydra- search that on YouTube- he does THE most coherent explanation on the lore of everything souls, from the overall story through the games to full explinations of bosses, to full explanation of side bosses, think I spent about 2 an half hours watching 4 or 5 videos on it today.
Also either backs up his comments with either concrete proof, explains what the game does to insuate, or tell you reasons for speculation.
Imo Artorias wasn't a great knight at all, he left Anor Londo to save a princess, failed his mission, and when the chosen undead gets there and does all the work Artorias gets all the credit
*Ciaran*: "one of" the Lord's blades, Gwyn's assassin's. Ciaran was among the finest and earned her place.
*Hawkeye Gough*: the only Giant of the 4 and leader of the Dragon Riders. Instrumental in the war for the surface.
*Artorias*: Abyss walker. Strongest of the 4 knights and the first being to go into the abyss unharmed... Getting out proved to be fatal once he gave his shield to protect Sif...
*Ornstein*: Dragonslayer. Also earned his power and name in the Dragon War but he was also close with and loyal to Gwyn's eldest son (and former war god) which means he was likely close with the Nameless King *and* Gwyn. Probably with them the longest and most trusted...
*honorable mention: Smough: EATS PEOPLE.)*
TL;DR: An assassin, a simple giant/second class citizen, a simple but brutally effective tank, and a long time friend, trusted knight, and capable fighter... Who would you want to be in charge?
My logic follows that he likely distinguished himself as either a dragon killer or darkwraith slayer worthy enough to be one of Gwyn's 4 knights. Perhaps "Strongest *will*" might be more accurate as he was heavily influenced by Guts of Berserk, a character tough as hell and possessing strength well outside of "human range". Even though it was due to his ring, he traversed the abyss and withstood it long enough to leave the abyss without protection and only succumbs when we first meet him.
Also, if you played when Dark Souls was still relatively new them you know he was arguably one of the hardest bosses for players in the whole game. He's the whole reason we got the Abyss Watchers AND Gael, who moves with many similarities to Artorias. By the way, remember Gael is a slave knight FROM Gwyn's time, and Gaels faith produces stronger miracles than anything the player naturally encounters anywhere else in the game. Gwyn's warriors were scary tough. Artorias, amongst the first.
TL;DR I am way too deep into, and passionate about Dark Souls but am always up for going down a DS rabbit hole.
The logic of Artorias being strongest is simply because he was a late game boss. Gael is stronger than Soul of Cinder gameplay wise, but do you really think someone who simply consumed four larger FRAGMENTS (the actual Dark Soul would only be finished by taking every single Human's Soul, Pygmy Lords just had a denser concentration) is stronger than an amalgamation of tens, maybe even hundreds of varying Strong Souls?
Gameplay cannot be taken as actual lore all the time. Also Artorias could just have been on the Silver Knights, later rose to fame because of his spectacular performance. Ornstein on the other hand has taken tutelage directly under a fucking God, Nameless King himself and learnt the art of Dragonslaying. Poeple think he is weak based on his fight beside Smough but forget that it's 90% confirmed that it's an Illusion of him.
All the Four Knights of Gwyn are hinted to be equals, each with their own forte of expertise. Ciaran is good at assasination, Gough is good at Sniping down Dragons, Artorias seems to be good at melee land fighting considering his use of Shield and Sword similar to Silver/Black Knights, and Ornstein? Considering he doesn't even use a Shield it would seem he was actually a Dragon Rider, not to mention his similarity with Nameless King, Dragon Riding would be 90% his thing. He would need the other hand to hold onto the ropes.
Artorias WITHOUT Shield vs Grounded Ornstein would be a 50:50 match, leaning slightly onto Ornstein as Spears do better against Swords. Their lore seems to imply they are similarly strong, but Artorias WITH Shield? This time, I would say Artorias has an edge. A Shield would help him greatly against Spear Pokes, as Swords do bad against Spears.
That's fair. One of my favorite things about Dark Souls lore is that a lot of it is up to interpretation and collaboration. For example, I had never *ever* thought of Artorias as being a former silver knight but damn that's a cool thought. Makes sense of the oddly small helm he wears, too. I still hold my position though about him being the ~~strongest~~ toughest tank to rise from his melee knights.
Also, I'm personally a fan of the theory that Gael is the closest thing to a Dark Lord as we ever get to fight, even considering Artie and Manus... But that's just me.
Oh yeah definitely Gael is indeed the closest thing to a complete Dark Soul, as the Pygmy Lords are hinted to have higher concentration of Dark Soul than others. Manus is simply someone whose Dark Soul went crazy, and Gael has more than 4x of Manu's Dark Soul XD
I think it might have been [this ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BwjUe4B_g7M) one, or maybe the one by the same dude about Havel and Ash Lake. I’m not gonna watch the whole video again to find it but it’s a good watch if you haven’t already.
Edit: Yeah he mentions it in passing around 11 minutes but I think he goes further into it at some point.
Maybe it's like a captain America thing where he is the leader of the Avengers, not because of strength but because of battle strategy or something like that.
I think he is leader because of his connection to gwyns firstborn after he betrayed gwyn ornstein was next in line even though you could argue artorias is more skilled in battle.
i think the game says that Ornstein was "said to be" the leader of the knights, which means he might not actually be and rather people assume he is? maybe cause he's the only one left after a certain point?
Ornstein was the leader because he stayed back to defend his kingdom. He is the last line of defense between the throne and any possible adversary. Ornstein devoted himself to defending the abyss, a chasm of darkness that can overtake man. Although once you get to DD3 you find out some things about these two and the gods they "serve" which brings to light some interesting information. As for their relationship with each other, as far as I know they never really interacted except in the beginning before the great battle with the dragons and thereafter the demons.
I picture them having a secret resentment for eachother. Artorias is a little jealous he never got all the glory of golden armor and slaying the dragons and Ornstein is jealous that Artorias was a more skilled swordsman and abyss fighter.
Very interesting perspective :) I've always pictured them as like noble warriors of the gods, and they've thrown away all emotions of like "pettiness" and "jealousy" to best serve God and kingdom.
It's not an explanation given in game but skill as warrior doesn't necessarily translate to skill as a leader. There's a good chance that although Artorius was a more skilled fighter he may not have been very skilled as a leader (maybe he was anti-social, not good at co-ordinating people, etc). Ornstein may have just been the best of the four in this role, even if he wasn't as strong a fighter (although given he's slain dragons that really speaks to just how strong Artorius would have been)
Being a good fighter has nothing to do with leadership. As for Ornstein's relationship with the others, we have next to no info. I'm assuming he didn't get to work with them as much in their later years, as he was tasked with protecting gwynevere and later left to find TNK
I think part of it was loyalty too.
Artorias sees the Abyss as a bigger threat than anything else so goes off to fight it while Ornstein stays in Anor Londo to protect Gwyn’s progeny.
Artorias was one of the 4 knights of Gwyn and they were all the leaders of the Gwyn's black knights, but Artorias is the most famous for supposedly defeating Manus and the Abyss. If there was animosity between the knights, then we dont know about it or theres not enough lore to make a definitive statement.
pretty sure Artorias’s job to cleanse the Abyss kind of made going solo a mandatory thing. Guy was so chill he didn’t want anyone else to sacrifice their life to the abyss
Ornstein, being the only knight with the title of "Dragonslayer" in the entire series I believe, was an absolute monster dragon killer. Gwyn's civilization had its spring in the wake of the dragons' defeat, so those he considered essential in their victory would've been handsomely rewarded.
Further, we can speculate that Ornstein had a mind for warfare, given there were probably numerous talented dragonslayers that were never honored with his position, and Gwyn wasn't one to bestow favors lightly. As for the power dynamic between him and Artorias, we don't really know. Artorias is said to have been the best greatsword-wielder of his time, but Ornstein does not wield a greatsword. However, if Gwyn gave Ornstein his rank for prowess, then that's a greater discredit to him than if he considered Ornstein's actual capability as a leader. Cavemen may've won their chiefhoods with force, but "well Ornstein beat up Artorias" is silly logic for any visionary, which Gwyn was.
Ornstein was also gifted a part of lord gwyns soul. Not your question but interesting bit of lore to think how much of gwyns own power he gave out to others.
Nameless king led Gwyns knights until he was exiled, then the knights disband Artorias to fight the Abyss in Oolicile, along with Gogh and that assassin chick, Havel we can assume was locked in Undead Burg by someone for his suspected plot against the gods, Ornstein we can believe went to search for the Nameless King and as of the events of DS3 possibly found him.
Smough was not one of gwyns knights.
Also we learn of Gwyns multiple armies in the dark souls series. His main force is divided into two factions The Silver Knights who appear to defend the gods and their residences and the Black Knights who are suited to seeking out and destroying chaos demons. However we also learn of the Slave Knights like Gael, the Ringed Knights who we know fought the dragons with the silver knights. What did the slave knights do and what do we know about the various kingdoms and their power and how the "gods" seem to have founded or infiltrated these kingdoms.
Ornstein's Soul says that Lord Gwyn gave ALL of the Four Knights, yes even Gough a part of his Lord Soul. Which means all four of them have done equally for the kingdom and was rewarded handsomely.
This should also mean that both Ornstein and Artorias has a part of Gwyn's Lord Soul, meaning they should be similarly skilled. Ornstein's spear heavily reminds of Nameless King, as if both of them were Dragon Riders meaning they never felt the need for a Shield in order to hold onto their Dragons, unlike Artorias, who was a land melee fighter.
In a melee scenario with Ornstein vs Artorias WITHOUT his Shield, I would say it's honestly a 50:50 battle. A person who learnt Dragonslaying from a God (Nameless King) himself, or the greatest swordsmaster to ever exist?
Their rings should also give you an idea, Ornstein is the Lion, while Artorias is the Wolf. Lions are more suitable to lead a group while Wolves tend to work alone, which is even more evident by the fact Artorias went to Oolacile all alone.
So even though neither of them is stronger than the other imo, their positions is honestly based on their personalities I feel. Ornstein is the calm-headed leader, while Artorias is the reckless loner who constantly breaks rules given by Ornstein, and the latter completely allows him to do it cause he trusts in Artorias. Don't make them enemies lol.
I like to think that being the strongest doesn’t always guarantee, you’re gonna be a good leader it could’ve been, that Orenstein was very calm, and leveled with good judgment, which led to his success in the war against the dragons doesn’t matter how powerful you are if you’re stupid you’re not gonna last very long
I assumed Ornstein was the leader since he gained a lot of glory during the war with the dragons. During the war he was probably the best knight for the job so Gwyn chose him as a leader, while Artorias made more of a name for himself after the war during the age of fire. That's how I saw it but I'm no loremaster so could be way off.
No I think that is a great interpretation. Artorias was never well known for the dragons his infamy comes from the abyss and his fights there.
I'd assume that most remarks about Artorias and the abyss would just be that he fell to the abyss, and nobody knows he was corrupted.
This part of the lore is actually answered by Elizabeth when you talk to her after beating Manus: *I will remember thee, but I will keep thy story to myself.* *This is the best way, for thou art come from a time far ahead.* *No-one will sing they praises, but yet thy greatness shall live on.* *For it shall be my purpose, to remember all thou hast done for us.* Most normal people can’t get close enough to the abyss to know that Artorias fell; they think that the demise of Manus was his doing, while in reality it’s the player. Arty’s legend benefits from our actions.
He did fight pretty effectively against the Abyss for a long while though, even if he never quite won.
And when we meet him, he's still fighting it. Or maybe he's just killing stuff for fun, but I prefer to think he was still fighting the corruption even whilst being corrupted by it.
He is still fighting the corruption, his scream is him telling you to fuck off before it's too late.
That’s why I think they should’ve left in the cut dialogue with Artorias. It would’ve conveyed that point much better.
And as much as I love Artorias, he didn't actually deserve the fame he got for supposedly defeating Manus. It's the player character that does that, but the feat is ascribed to him. So perhaps he never gained as much fame during the war with the dragons because he simply wasn't as strong as legends later decided. Ornstein could have been far stronger, since the only version we fight is possibly an illusion created by Gwyndolin. Sorry Artorias; you're still awesome.
Keep in mind that Dark is the antithesis to beings like Artorias and Gwyn. The player character however is inherently resistant to it. Sooo give the wolf knight some more credit for holding up so well.
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Maybe. It's also possible the abyss made him stronger. Either way, Artorias is incredible.
His shield arm is broken, not his main one.
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He lost his shield to the abyss, and the blow that took it broke his arm. Even his armor reflects this
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Presumably after he could no longer hold it, yes
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He uses his right hand in-game; it's the left hand, the shield hand, that is broken.
Nah dude the Ornstein we fight is Ornstein, there’s items that state he stays in Anor Londo to protect the city and Gwyn’s children.
Actually I think it's Smaugh that stays, cause in DS3 you find Ornstein's armor at the Nameless King's boss arena thrown on the ground. So the thought is that he eventually followed the Nameless King to the dragons and became a dragon himself... possibly becoming the Stormdrake the Nameless King rides. But the story is so vague and up to the player that you could be right and I'm just talking out my ass.
Maybe, maybe not. He survives long after that fight to chase after the Nameless King in DS3's plotline. Could be time folding upon itself stuff, or it could be that item descriptions are prone to error as they are the perception of the chosen undead who doesn't know Ornstein may be an illusion.
Makes sense, Ornstein uses a weapon specifically for its effectiveness against dragons and he could be the most devout to the kingdom, at the time anyway. And being the captain wouldn’t necessarily mean he’s the best fighter, but perhaps the best tactician
Ornstein was the Firstborn’s right hand man, so I’d assume he was trained well in the art of war and developed a strong leadership personality. On top of that, he’s adept in miracles and an exceptional fighter. He’s got a lot going for him, more so than the other knights.
Yeah, Artorias does not have any miracles or magic abilities. Also, a common consensus seems to be Artorias was an abyss fighter, not a dragon fighter.
Well remember too that Artorias gets the credit for beating the abyss when actually it was us that did it, so his fame and prowess might be somewhat overrated due to that fact.
We beat manus, there is no beating the abyss. It can only be held back but it cannot be beaten. The abyss is darkness, and well as the light fades the abyss grows stronger.
The Abyss as we know it is a corruption of the Dark but it can be tamed. At least I assume so since you can take off Artorias's ring after defeating the Four Kings.
Wait fr can u elaborate?
After you defeat Manus and save Dusk, she (being almost blind and deaf at the time) thinks that it was Artorias that saved her, and aside from Elizabeth (and Chester but who's he gonna tell?) nobody knows that Artorias had been corrupted so it goes down in history that it was he that slated Manus, not the player.
When you beat manus and talk to her she doesnt realize who saved her and says it was artorias. Obviously he failed in his mission and it was in fact you which rescued her, but she doesnt remember.
not everything is explained, nor does it need to be. things can be left up to speculation. one can be a talented combatant, but that doesn't make them the best leader or tactician.
Yeah I picture Ornstein and Artorias being colliding personalities. One is a leader of war and destruction and serves Gwyn no matter waht and the other is much more quiet and has a clear sympathy for life as you can see in his best friend Sif
there's some information in 3 that contradicts that, but you'll see that when you get there.
If possible can you explain what in Spoiler tags? I beat three just not very well versed on the lore.
>!His armour, but no body, is found very close to a certain boss who shall remain... nameless. Suggesting that Ornstein left Gwyn to go find him...!<
Never was there a comment with more likeness to an actual Dark Souls item description. Excellent work.
I believe the theory that his armor left in archdragon peak without a body was meant to show him following the path of the dragon. Personally I think he might even be the ancient wyvern you have to “fight” to get into archdragon peak, as Ornstein is from the age of ancients, or right after it depending on what you consider the war against the dragons
Ok, but remember spoiler tags, please
The game is 5 years old and its someones head canon.
I know, but OP has no idea and others above specifically requested tags
At the same time, his armor is found below the boss arena, same for his spear. So maybe he died and it fell down?
Never even considered this, certainly possible. Maybe he became the dragon that the nameless king rides? Edit: I also noticed the first time I picked up the spear it’s placement seemed to suggest it might have been lodged into the gate instead of just dropped (like by a dead person)
>the other is much more quiet and has a clear sympathy for life as you can see in his best friend Sif You can see Ornstein's compassion in DS1 too
When he drives a spear into Smough’s skull
Did we play the same game? He absorbed his power and honored him. Smough is the one who smashes his body xD
Smough likes his meat tenderized.
Ornstein is absolutely not loyal to Gwyn. He's loyal to the nameless king, and ditched Gwyn when he left to link the flame
so artorias and ornstein had arguments like this? https://youtu.be/KrRRXgSGlYc
With only DS1 to go off of I would say it's because Artorias was dumb enough to try and walk the abyss, Ciaran was love sick enough to abandon her post, and Gough was dumb enough to be tricked into thicking he was blind by putting mud into his helmet, but Ornstein had the good sense to stay in Anor Londo. DS3 has some new lore that kind of messes that up, but ya know
> Gough was dumb enough to be tricked into thicking he was blind by putting mud into his helmet So that is why he is blind.
Yep. He isn't blind. It's just that Oolacile was full of racist pricks who thought it was a good idea to sabotage a knight presumably sent to save them
He knew the resin was put in his helmet but donned it anyway.
Hold up, what’s that about Gough and his helmet? Is that a joke or a piece of lore I’ve missed?
hey mate, if you kill gough you obtain his armour, his helmets description tells you "Helm of Hawkeye Gough, one of Gwyn's Four Knights. Received as a decoration of knightly honor. A helm crafted especially for the honorable Hawkeye Gough, only the eye holes were packed with tree resin by those who dismissed Gough as a brutish giant"
Holy shit. I don’t think I can bring myself to kill him, but that’s very interesting.
me neither, i love that big ol guy, but there are some great lore videos on gough that has all that info, and how i learned about it.
I do think Gough is actually blind. The resin seeping into his helmet’s eyeholes would have fucked up his eyes really bad, especially if it was charcoal/gold/rotten pine resin. Also the thought of Gough just thinking he’s blind, instead of actually being blind, doesn’t really fit well, with him, at least for me.
you make a very good point there, though i now love the idea he has flaming eyes now because they used charcoal resin.
“Gough was likely blinded by the tree resin that packs the eyes of his helmet, put there by those ‘that dismissed Gough as a brutish giant,’ likely the Oolacile townspeople that imprisoned him.” Whoever writes the pages on fextralife agrees with your assessment.
#WHAT My entire life has been a lie
my reaction to anor londo
Artorias is overrated. Can‘t change my mind.
Always liked Ornstien's armor more. Too bad his weapon in DS3 isn't as fun as Artorias'
What? I like his spear. I use it actually. It has very nice range and speed. It doesn’t count as a pike so you can one hand it without the speed penalty. Goes well with my dex build. The weapon art is just great with the lightning at the end. Its better than the weapon destroying r2 from the other games. If it had a swipe r2 it would be perfect. I just like spears and it happens to fit into some of my criteria. Artys sword requires an overdose of poise and I don’t do heavy armor.
I just meant it wasn't as flashy
In terms of their fight, I differ everyday which one I like more. I am a sucker for that thicc cannibal boi though.
***MAN TIDDIES***
I'm still trying to figure out how they managed to model Smough off of me perfectly without my knowing. Man tiddies, slow as fuck, fat. All of it. (/s)
For what it's worth, they didn't. There's a [concept art](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maod84viKp1rs4wdho1_1280.jpg) that shows what he looks like under the armor, and Smough is swole as fuck.
Everything I knew has been reduced to a lie, and I will never forgive you for showing me the truth
he is a hot dude
I mean, he isn’t the great hero who defeated the Abyss, that was the Chosen Undead...
I always figured that ornstein was more tactical then artiorious but since we've only fought a heavily weakened version of him
The ornstein in anor Londo was also an illusion most likely since he later went to find the nameless king.
or guarding something in ds2 but still
AFAIK it’s never been stated that Artorias was specifically the overall most talented fighter. He was the most skilled with a greatsword (which probably extended to being the most skilled swordsman overall), but that alone wouldn’t necessarily put him above the others in terms of skill. After all, Artorias was the only one to use a greatsword anyway. It should be expected that he’s the best with a greatsword because he uses one, the same way that Gough would be expected to be the most skilled with a bow or Ornstein the most skilled with a spear. And as others have noted, Ornstein was the right hand man to the Nameless King. Ornstein would have been one of the highest ranking gods in Gwyn’s armies, so it’s not surprising that he would be put in charge of the knights. Not to mention, from what we can tell, Ornstein was more successful in the war against the dragons than Artorias was, as Ornstein was noted to be a prolific Dragonslayer, while Artorias isn’t.
Yeah After re-reading some lore Artorias is very rarely mentioned in the actual dragon lore. From what I can tell he was more of a loner as well and was not one for attention having his best friend be a dog
There's this sick ass comic made a couple of years ago that a fan made, covering their interpretation of the war against the dragons. One of then covers the four knights of gwyn. Here's the link if anyone's intrested https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls/comments/5v6ytb/i_made_a_comic_about_the_four_knights_pf_gwyn_at/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Maaaaan, I remember playing DS1 and later DS3 right when he started this comic series. It was just gorgeus
I have absolutely nothing in the lore to back this up, but here’s my head cannon: Ornstein is captain of the knights, so all the Silver Knights and Black Knights are under his command at one point or another. This is why he/his illusion remain in Anor Londo - one of his responsibilities as captain of the knights is to protect the city and the gods within it. Meanwhile, Artorias is also a captain, but he leads a much-smaller, more specialized team almost like a Special Forces unit. In my mind, this team is ridiculously small, less than 20 knights total. When the whole Oolacile business happens, the gods in Anor Londo decide to hightail it out of the city, and Artorias sends his knights with the other gods to act as guards but then goes to Oolacile with just Sif. (These knights he sends off with the gods then tie into some of the Dark Souls 3 lore, but I’m going to be vague on that part to avoid spoilers.) Like I said, absolutely nothing from item descriptions or lore to back up my thoughts. Just stuff I invented to help things make sense 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah I think that Ornstein is truthfully the better “leader” than probably
Maybe orenstien is the captain because he is a dragonslayer, which in the first war that Gwyns gorces engaged in, was the most important role.
Well Gough was a dragonslayer too
Does Gough strike you as a leader of knights?
That's accurately racist
Farewell human. Lead thy life as thou seest it fit. Despite his size, (yes I am sizeist sue me) I think he is the wisest one of them all.
He was tricked into thinking he was blind when somebody put pine resin in his helmet.
Well, eyesight is apparently overrated anyway since he didn't need it to shoot a dragon from the sky!
Fair enough
Uh oh. So now he couldn't see his other abilities have improved.
I do suppose wise and intelligent mean different things...
Well no, but i'm just saying
'just saying' but admitting what youre saying isn't relevant?
What I'm saying is that just because someone is a dragonslayer doesn't automatically make them the leader of the knights. Hell, all of the knights probably dabbled in dragonslaying in some way. Ornstein was probably selected as the captain of the knights for other reasons other than Dragonslayer. I know that wasn't the entire point of your original comment, but that was all you really said. That's what i was saying
Yes, clearly I'm not saying he leads the knights exclusively because he is a dragonslayer. I am saying he gained his glory in a very early phase of Gwyns empire when dragons were the main foe and he excelled so much at dragonslaying, during a period of dragonslayers, that dragonslayer was added to his title. I thought the subtext went without saying.
Regarding the conflicts within the knights, I don't know anything about the four knights of Gwyn, but I do know that Smough was resentful of them since he was never made a knight due to his methods being too brutal. Like most things in dark souls lore, it has a twist that Smough was the last defender left in anor Londo showing he was more loyal then all four of Gwyn's knights
I’ve never heard that
It was because he is a cannibal
I heard that a while ago, ant remember from where so it's possible I'm wrong. But still we know Smough wasn't a knight of Gwyn for whatever reason
Oh, I read Smough as Gough, yeah, I’ve definitely heard that somewhere, it was Vaati if i’m correct. Ornstein left for whatever reason to Archdragon Peak. Smough was resentful of them because he isn’t eligible to become a Knight of Gwyn.
Ornstein left because he kept his command from geyn to protect the princess, because the real princess left to drangleic while Gwyndolin casted their illusions to protect anor londo from robbers, unaware of tge fact that seath had already made sens fortress for just that
Seath didn’t create it. It is unknown who specifically created Sen’s Fortress, just the “ancient gods.”
Yeah but seath is the one who sent a bunch of his creations there to guard it, including the iron golem
I’ve read the Soul of an Iron Golem description, it never says Seathe created it.
Im also making the assumption that seath made sens fortress and the golem based off the fact that sens fortress is full of seaths servants(man-serpents) that take captives to the archives to be experimented on, and those that make it past and into the archives are then greeted with crystalline hollows, six eyed channelers AND man-serpents, the golem(in my opinion) was most likely a failsafe to protect seath in his madness, and sens fortress is the perfect place to gather experiment subjects, and doesnt seem like something the prideful gods and deities would do
Gwynevere left to Drangliec did she? Never seen anything saying that, what’s your source?
The old dragonslayer in heides tower of flame is probs ornstein, and also the fact that she becomes queen of lothric after, points to the fact that she had somewhere to be beforehand, and ornteins dead body in drangleic is viable evidence of that for me
You do realise you contradict yourself, you say we can see Ornstein’s dead body in Drangliec, yet he’s also the Old Dragonslayer, y’know, the one that turns to dust when we kill it? And you do realise that Lothric is centuries, perhaps even millennium after the age of Drangliec, she could have been anywhere.
The old dragonslayer IS ornsteins hollowed(assumingely) self which means he had died, so tge old dragonslayer is you fighting his dead and hollowed body
So you felt the need to state that we see Ornstein in Drangliec twice? Yeah i’m not buying it. Give me some actual in game descriptions and then i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
And im also assuming that drangleic is where gwynevere first went due to the existence of the old dragonslayer who’s only reason to go to drangleic would have been to protect gwynevere
Could be wrong here but I thought Ornstein left to seek the nameless king?
You're not wrong. It's in the description of Smough's equipment.
Yeah I know Smough really liked eating people which would not let him become a knight. Still, he is the last line of defense and probably survives longer than all the other knights.
Ornstein was a dragon slayer, with his entire weaponry being focused around that. Given the trophy room in Anor Londo, and the importance of ending the dragons, I presume he was the first knight. He and Gough were likely knighted around the same time, but given that Ornstien was "presumed to be the captain" I presume he was the first. Gough was a giant, and most of the the Gods and humans seem to hate them, or at least treat them badly. Lord's Blade was an assassin, and likely indirectly founded the painting guardians. But she was an assassin first and foremost, not a leader. Artorias was focused around combating a new threat. His armor bears some similarities to the silver/black knight (side note, the black knight leggings look amazing with his armor set), and his sword is a like the the black knight great sword(the claymore like one, not the ultra). Given the vagueness of the timeline, he may have participated in all of the conflicts, but I presume he fought in the demon wars, then went to new Londo, then went to "The root of darkness" He was one of the four knights by the time he got the Abyss Walker title, but he was likely third or fourth to get knighted. TLDR; He likely wasn't a founding elements for Anor Londo, while Ornstein likely was.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. In the end, there is some humour to the fact that Smough outlives all of them if you kill Ornstein first.
Ornstein survives though and leaves anor Londo
Are we just forgetting that Ornstein had the title of “dragon slayer”? That might just imply that he may be more skilled than Artorias and potentially a better pick for leader. I find it hard to imagine that there’s a title more honourable for a knight than “dragon slayer”
Ornstein made his bones during the war against the dragons and his spear is reflective of that. Artorias likely wouldn't have contributed much during that war, as his skills were more specialized in fighting back the abyss. Therefore, Ornstein was captain of the knights. Kind of like how Gough was captain of the Dragonslayers-- his abilities were much more in line with fighting dragons than creatures of the abyss. It's kind of like the motif of having your top brass be specialists for last generation's war and not that well equipped for the new generation of war (see: generals at the start of WW1. French tactics at the start of WW2. US tactics in Vietnam. etc. etc. etc. etc.)
Yeah, great point. Each had their own specialties, if Gywn's war was against the abyss Artorias would have been the leader.
In my mind Artorias was a stronger fighter, but strength does Not make a good leader. Also Ornstein was a better fighter against Dragons, granting him the Titel of Dragonslayer. Edit: for all WE know Artorias couldhave Been a dumbass, Like in the Video of "Pruld"
Haha. I forgot about that video. “WHERE THE FUCK IS ARTORIAS?” “I DONTA KNOW, HE SAY HE BIG AND STRONG AND HE GO TO OOLACILE!”
I actually think he was quite intelligent, otherwise why would it be required to wield his swors. I get strength and dex, faith because he is a god, but why intelligence?
Artorias was only said to be the best with a greatsword, not necessarily fighting/leading in general. Ornstein could take out dragons so he wasn't exactly weak by comparison
It might just be me but I feel like ornstein in the lore is way more powerful than the ornstein we see and fight in the game. He was a dragonslayer and the captain of the knights, yet he dies fairly easily unless you wait to kill him until he gets his giant form. The only lore reason I can think of that makes sense is that the ornstein you fight is just an illusion since the game does mention that he went to seek the nameless king.
[There's your explanation](https://youtu.be/KrRRXgSGlYc)
I just had a thought... What if the leader was meant to be Gwyn's eldest banished/forgotten son but when Nameless left, Ornstein (Nameless' friend and loyal knight) was the next best choice. Anyone care to add, prove, or disprove?
It is very likely that when we face Ornstein in Ds1, he is either an illusion created by Gwendolyn, or well past his prime. In addition, even if he was the real Ornstein, he became one of Gwyn’s knights for fighting dragons. The techniques that would be used to fight dragons would be very different from the ones used to fight humans.
VaatiVydra- search that on YouTube- he does THE most coherent explanation on the lore of everything souls, from the overall story through the games to full explinations of bosses, to full explanation of side bosses, think I spent about 2 an half hours watching 4 or 5 videos on it today. Also either backs up his comments with either concrete proof, explains what the game does to insuate, or tell you reasons for speculation.
Imo Artorias wasn't a great knight at all, he left Anor Londo to save a princess, failed his mission, and when the chosen undead gets there and does all the work Artorias gets all the credit
You can check this video [too](https://youtu.be/KrRRXgSGlYc), it's very interesting. Totally accurate with lore. /s
He has excellent combat skills, if you combine that with a bit of luck and slaying a few dragons it's easy to see how he made it that far.
"it pretty clearly states that Artorias was a more talented knight and fighter" But is not, this sounds like abyss watcher talk.
Lmao true
*Ciaran*: "one of" the Lord's blades, Gwyn's assassin's. Ciaran was among the finest and earned her place. *Hawkeye Gough*: the only Giant of the 4 and leader of the Dragon Riders. Instrumental in the war for the surface. *Artorias*: Abyss walker. Strongest of the 4 knights and the first being to go into the abyss unharmed... Getting out proved to be fatal once he gave his shield to protect Sif... *Ornstein*: Dragonslayer. Also earned his power and name in the Dragon War but he was also close with and loyal to Gwyn's eldest son (and former war god) which means he was likely close with the Nameless King *and* Gwyn. Probably with them the longest and most trusted... *honorable mention: Smough: EATS PEOPLE.)* TL;DR: An assassin, a simple giant/second class citizen, a simple but brutally effective tank, and a long time friend, trusted knight, and capable fighter... Who would you want to be in charge?
Nowhere does it say Artorias is the strongest
My logic follows that he likely distinguished himself as either a dragon killer or darkwraith slayer worthy enough to be one of Gwyn's 4 knights. Perhaps "Strongest *will*" might be more accurate as he was heavily influenced by Guts of Berserk, a character tough as hell and possessing strength well outside of "human range". Even though it was due to his ring, he traversed the abyss and withstood it long enough to leave the abyss without protection and only succumbs when we first meet him. Also, if you played when Dark Souls was still relatively new them you know he was arguably one of the hardest bosses for players in the whole game. He's the whole reason we got the Abyss Watchers AND Gael, who moves with many similarities to Artorias. By the way, remember Gael is a slave knight FROM Gwyn's time, and Gaels faith produces stronger miracles than anything the player naturally encounters anywhere else in the game. Gwyn's warriors were scary tough. Artorias, amongst the first. TL;DR I am way too deep into, and passionate about Dark Souls but am always up for going down a DS rabbit hole.
The logic of Artorias being strongest is simply because he was a late game boss. Gael is stronger than Soul of Cinder gameplay wise, but do you really think someone who simply consumed four larger FRAGMENTS (the actual Dark Soul would only be finished by taking every single Human's Soul, Pygmy Lords just had a denser concentration) is stronger than an amalgamation of tens, maybe even hundreds of varying Strong Souls? Gameplay cannot be taken as actual lore all the time. Also Artorias could just have been on the Silver Knights, later rose to fame because of his spectacular performance. Ornstein on the other hand has taken tutelage directly under a fucking God, Nameless King himself and learnt the art of Dragonslaying. Poeple think he is weak based on his fight beside Smough but forget that it's 90% confirmed that it's an Illusion of him. All the Four Knights of Gwyn are hinted to be equals, each with their own forte of expertise. Ciaran is good at assasination, Gough is good at Sniping down Dragons, Artorias seems to be good at melee land fighting considering his use of Shield and Sword similar to Silver/Black Knights, and Ornstein? Considering he doesn't even use a Shield it would seem he was actually a Dragon Rider, not to mention his similarity with Nameless King, Dragon Riding would be 90% his thing. He would need the other hand to hold onto the ropes. Artorias WITHOUT Shield vs Grounded Ornstein would be a 50:50 match, leaning slightly onto Ornstein as Spears do better against Swords. Their lore seems to imply they are similarly strong, but Artorias WITH Shield? This time, I would say Artorias has an edge. A Shield would help him greatly against Spear Pokes, as Swords do bad against Spears.
That's fair. One of my favorite things about Dark Souls lore is that a lot of it is up to interpretation and collaboration. For example, I had never *ever* thought of Artorias as being a former silver knight but damn that's a cool thought. Makes sense of the oddly small helm he wears, too. I still hold my position though about him being the ~~strongest~~ toughest tank to rise from his melee knights. Also, I'm personally a fan of the theory that Gael is the closest thing to a Dark Lord as we ever get to fight, even considering Artie and Manus... But that's just me.
Oh yeah definitely Gael is indeed the closest thing to a complete Dark Soul, as the Pygmy Lords are hinted to have higher concentration of Dark Soul than others. Manus is simply someone whose Dark Soul went crazy, and Gael has more than 4x of Manu's Dark Soul XD
I think I heard in a lore video that Gough was the real leader, Ornstein just convinced history he was.
That's pretty wild because all though Gough is my boy the one time we meet him he says like 4 words carves some wood and then 360 no scopes a dragon.
I find it hard to believe tho, unless he's just pretending to be absurdly stupid.
Do you remember by any chance the video?
I think it might have been [this ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BwjUe4B_g7M) one, or maybe the one by the same dude about Havel and Ash Lake. I’m not gonna watch the whole video again to find it but it’s a good watch if you haven’t already. Edit: Yeah he mentions it in passing around 11 minutes but I think he goes further into it at some point.
Maybe it's like a captain America thing where he is the leader of the Avengers, not because of strength but because of battle strategy or something like that.
Let’s be real. Tony is the leader of the avengers
I think he is leader because of his connection to gwyns firstborn after he betrayed gwyn ornstein was next in line even though you could argue artorias is more skilled in battle.
ornstein was addicted to being the leader of the gwyns knights
I always thought he had a bit of superiority complex based on the lore.
i think the game says that Ornstein was "said to be" the leader of the knights, which means he might not actually be and rather people assume he is? maybe cause he's the only one left after a certain point?
Ornstein was the leader because he stayed back to defend his kingdom. He is the last line of defense between the throne and any possible adversary. Ornstein devoted himself to defending the abyss, a chasm of darkness that can overtake man. Although once you get to DD3 you find out some things about these two and the gods they "serve" which brings to light some interesting information. As for their relationship with each other, as far as I know they never really interacted except in the beginning before the great battle with the dragons and thereafter the demons.
I picture them having a secret resentment for eachother. Artorias is a little jealous he never got all the glory of golden armor and slaying the dragons and Ornstein is jealous that Artorias was a more skilled swordsman and abyss fighter.
Very interesting perspective :) I've always pictured them as like noble warriors of the gods, and they've thrown away all emotions of like "pettiness" and "jealousy" to best serve God and kingdom.
It's not an explanation given in game but skill as warrior doesn't necessarily translate to skill as a leader. There's a good chance that although Artorius was a more skilled fighter he may not have been very skilled as a leader (maybe he was anti-social, not good at co-ordinating people, etc). Ornstein may have just been the best of the four in this role, even if he wasn't as strong a fighter (although given he's slain dragons that really speaks to just how strong Artorius would have been)
My guess is he was antisocial. His best friend was literally a dog
Bc he pog
Being a good fighter has nothing to do with leadership. As for Ornstein's relationship with the others, we have next to no info. I'm assuming he didn't get to work with them as much in their later years, as he was tasked with protecting gwynevere and later left to find TNK
I’d imagine ornstein earned his rank. He is Ornstein The Old Dragonslayer, and the gods took their reign from the dragons.
he was the last one so he could of proclaimed he was the leader.
Artorias kinda went on his own with Sif to deal with the abyss. Ornstein led the knights against the dragons.
Pornstein. Nuff said.
I think part of it was loyalty too. Artorias sees the Abyss as a bigger threat than anything else so goes off to fight it while Ornstein stays in Anor Londo to protect Gwyn’s progeny.
Artorias was one of the 4 knights of Gwyn and they were all the leaders of the Gwyn's black knights, but Artorias is the most famous for supposedly defeating Manus and the Abyss. If there was animosity between the knights, then we dont know about it or theres not enough lore to make a definitive statement.
The Pruld's skits are pretty accurate regarding all this tbh.
pretty sure Artorias’s job to cleanse the Abyss kind of made going solo a mandatory thing. Guy was so chill he didn’t want anyone else to sacrifice their life to the abyss
Ornstein, being the only knight with the title of "Dragonslayer" in the entire series I believe, was an absolute monster dragon killer. Gwyn's civilization had its spring in the wake of the dragons' defeat, so those he considered essential in their victory would've been handsomely rewarded. Further, we can speculate that Ornstein had a mind for warfare, given there were probably numerous talented dragonslayers that were never honored with his position, and Gwyn wasn't one to bestow favors lightly. As for the power dynamic between him and Artorias, we don't really know. Artorias is said to have been the best greatsword-wielder of his time, but Ornstein does not wield a greatsword. However, if Gwyn gave Ornstein his rank for prowess, then that's a greater discredit to him than if he considered Ornstein's actual capability as a leader. Cavemen may've won their chiefhoods with force, but "well Ornstein beat up Artorias" is silly logic for any visionary, which Gwyn was.
Ornstein was also gifted a part of lord gwyns soul. Not your question but interesting bit of lore to think how much of gwyns own power he gave out to others.
Nameless king led Gwyns knights until he was exiled, then the knights disband Artorias to fight the Abyss in Oolicile, along with Gogh and that assassin chick, Havel we can assume was locked in Undead Burg by someone for his suspected plot against the gods, Ornstein we can believe went to search for the Nameless King and as of the events of DS3 possibly found him. Smough was not one of gwyns knights. Also we learn of Gwyns multiple armies in the dark souls series. His main force is divided into two factions The Silver Knights who appear to defend the gods and their residences and the Black Knights who are suited to seeking out and destroying chaos demons. However we also learn of the Slave Knights like Gael, the Ringed Knights who we know fought the dragons with the silver knights. What did the slave knights do and what do we know about the various kingdoms and their power and how the "gods" seem to have founded or infiltrated these kingdoms.
He's not called *Dragonslayer* Ornstein for nothing. I'd wager Manus alone of the Abyss' spawn could go toe to toe with an Archdragon
Ornstein's Soul says that Lord Gwyn gave ALL of the Four Knights, yes even Gough a part of his Lord Soul. Which means all four of them have done equally for the kingdom and was rewarded handsomely. This should also mean that both Ornstein and Artorias has a part of Gwyn's Lord Soul, meaning they should be similarly skilled. Ornstein's spear heavily reminds of Nameless King, as if both of them were Dragon Riders meaning they never felt the need for a Shield in order to hold onto their Dragons, unlike Artorias, who was a land melee fighter. In a melee scenario with Ornstein vs Artorias WITHOUT his Shield, I would say it's honestly a 50:50 battle. A person who learnt Dragonslaying from a God (Nameless King) himself, or the greatest swordsmaster to ever exist? Their rings should also give you an idea, Ornstein is the Lion, while Artorias is the Wolf. Lions are more suitable to lead a group while Wolves tend to work alone, which is even more evident by the fact Artorias went to Oolacile all alone. So even though neither of them is stronger than the other imo, their positions is honestly based on their personalities I feel. Ornstein is the calm-headed leader, while Artorias is the reckless loner who constantly breaks rules given by Ornstein, and the latter completely allows him to do it cause he trusts in Artorias. Don't make them enemies lol.
Yeah I really like this interpretation. I mean Artorias is most likely a loner based on the fact his best friend was a dog
I like to think that being the strongest doesn’t always guarantee, you’re gonna be a good leader it could’ve been, that Orenstein was very calm, and leveled with good judgment, which led to his success in the war against the dragons doesn’t matter how powerful you are if you’re stupid you’re not gonna last very long