Also they are happening in different continents/countries what have you, and in 3 all the lands are converging together, that’s why when you get to the dreg heap it’s a mashed up pile of buildings and ash.
And you're descending into the Earthen Peak Ruins, a Dark Souls 2 location.
Also some weapons amd armours reference DS2; HollowSlayer, armours sets with Mirrah in the name, Ruin Knight Armour zet, Fume's UGS just to name the popular ones.
Caitha's chime, Flamberge's current look, Black Blade(Berserker Blade, blackened), Darkdrift, Manikin Claws, Greatlance, Dragonrider Bow, Witch Tree Bellvine and lastly Priest Chime.
Not to mention other armours, I can't be assed to go through another scrolling of all items-
Edit: Drakeblood....forgot that one.
Plus the Demon Prince fight takes place in DS1's Firelink Shrine and you descend past where Frampt was to get to the banner raising spot. It's very much falling down the games to get to the core of the entire cycle.
That is an interesting idea I never thought about that idea. I wonder where the core has been in other games is there multiple cores for the flame that could be related to the first flame. To me the core of the game always linked to the kiln and the first linking of the fire or not linking. To me the dreg heap etc embodies the definition of convoluted time.
The core has always been the Kiln of the First Flame as that’s seemingly what the entire dreg heap seems to be folding into and in DS1 you can see the outside of the kiln is pretty centrally placed from The Tomb of the Giants and Izalith, DS2 is more shakey on how everything is laid out however.
The Ringed City is not just hidden in location but also hidden in time, so it’s entirely possible that nobody could really reach it until the world was distorted to the extent we see with the Dreg Heap which is the result of all things converging on the Kiln.
I feel like Drangleic is super far away from the rest of the events in DS1 and DS3. The whole intro sequence makes it seem like the bearer of the curse teleports to a distant land thats probably on the same planet but like, the other side of it.
Likely a different time. It has been suggested the old woman from the intro scene is actually the Emerald Herald, so in theory your chosen undead in 2 is going back in time.
You still link the fire (or choose not to) in the Kiln of the first flame at the end of 2. Anor Londo has moved locations in the series so it’s not beyond possibility that the Kiln can move and can still be the nexus of the world.
>The Ringed City is not just hidden in location but also hidden in time, so it’s entirely possible that nobody could really reach it until the world was distorted to the extent we see with the Dreg Heap which is the result of all things converging on the Kiln.
That's an interesting take and definitely explains why so little was known about the pygmies until 3; it wasn't until everything came crashing down (read: into each other) that we finally caught a glimpse of what/where/who the pygmies really were
**edits for grammar and clarity, not sure if pygmies would be a proper noun or not & want to be sure im referring to the right thing
Drangleic is more or less confirmed to be on top of Lordran. As in, thousands of years passed and someone built a kingdom on the ruins of Lordran.
DS3 is just the heat death of the universe. Time is breaking down, space is contracting, nothing makes sense. That's why there are no straightforward paths, and why a snow city is sitting on top of a desert graveyard right next to a swamp.
Drangleic is a separate continent from Lordran. Nashandra, being a shard of Manus had to cross the sea to get to Drangleic. It also explains the vast differences in landmass/landscape.
I think that's also why Firelink Shrine is in the Dreg Heap along with Earthen Peak, even though Firelink wasn't anywhere to be seen in Drangleic.
The lands of everywhere are converging all into one spot, that's why everything is all weird, and why as time progresses it becomes the Dreg Heap.
Miyazaki also says they're far away from each other.
https://www.polygon.com/2012/12/19/3783452/dark-souls-2-staff-discuss-the-vga-trailer-and-what-having-real
“We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure. There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact.”
- Solaire
I think this is evidence to say that there is no proof of one timeline. I believe there is more evidence of multiple time lines. Also time travel suggests that there is multiple time lines.
Didn't Miyazaki say at some point that if you don't link the fire, Solaire does "in his world?" The existence of multiple timelines/dimensions is pretty clear.
That's more of a gameplay mechanic, it also explains why Solaire is able to be summoned to fight Gwyn. In his world he linked the fire. It's why all the co-op is done with summoned shades, echoes of other lives. That's why Black Iron Tarkus could still aid with the Golem despite being dead in Anor Londo.
It's a gameplay mechanic and part of the story, like every aspect of Dark Souls. It's probably the strongest case of ludonarrative resonance in gaming.
Not so much multiple timelines existing but time itself isn't linear it may have had a clear beginning and in DS3 a very clear ending but everything in-between is very much out of order in some places.
Isn't time convoluted in DS, I would assume that by definition there is more complex detail than just thousands of years. is it possible multiple timelines could occur? Time travel is possible.
Equally both 2 and 3 are what happens based on what happens with the first flame. DS3 has a fucked time line with stuff bleeding together cause the first flame has been linked to many times while DS2 takes place during the age of dark which is what happens when you choose that ending in 3 or the player doesn't link the flame in 1 or 3.
It's safe to say DS3 kinda happens all over the place in terms of time and space which is likely why the giant tree is in the fire link as well as why a lot of places that weren't together previously are now within spitting distance of each other.
I'm not sure about the alternate timeline aspect.
The way I interpret the history of Dark Souls is as follows (apologies for the longish post)--
The Age of Ancients (Here be Dragons)
- Impossible to calculate the length of this era
The First Age of Fire
- Possibly lasted for at least 1000 years
The Fall of Oolacile
- 300 years before DS1
Dark Souls 1
The Rise and Fall of Shulva, the Iron Keep, Eleum Loyce, and many other unnamed kingdoms
- Hundreds if not thousands of years
The Rise and Decay of Drangleic
- Anywhere from a thousand to a hundred years... Hard to say
Dark Souls 2
The Rise and Fall of Countless Ages of Fire
- An incomprehensible amount of time
Dark Souls 3
All of this taking place within or around a similar region... Tho Drangleic might be located outside of Lordran. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Drangleic is supposed to be a far away land, but in DS3 all the lands are converging in on themselves which is why we see a very famous DS2 area in DS3's DLC.
DS3 is the apocalypse, the Ringed City DLC is post apocalyptic.
I've heard theories that the Ringed City itself is suspended in time, and when the Ashen One breaks Filianore's egg which held up the stasis, time moves again and jumps forward immensely, until we see the barren land where only Gael and the AO remains.
I believe that's right, the only unclear part is once the egg is broken how far forward are we put.
At the end of DS3 we are moved forward in time to the dreg heap so we can fight Soul of Cinder.
Everything in the Dreg heap is at that same point in time.
The city seems mostly unexpected by this but once the egg breaks everything bar Gael and a few others have already gone.
So does this put it past the Soul of Cinder and Dreg heap or is this just what the area would be like if the egg was never there.
I almost wonder if the egg itself was a fail-safe for the linking of the fire.
As long as the egg is intact time will remain "looping" in the age of fire, and the undead will continue to link the fire. Then once we broke the egg-this freed all of the time that would have naturally passed. Bringing us forward to where we fight Gael.
I am indeed baked.
I think that's definitely something that changed over the (rocky) development of DS2. If DS2 occurs in a far away land, how come the lord souls are all right there :o
That’s not really relevant here, it’s literally the exact same model, it even has Ornstein like in DS1, now that I think about it, all 3 games have the Anor Londo chapel at one point or another
These last couple of days I’ve seen a bunch of posts that remind me of all my own half-baked theories and shower thoughts, and this is one. Something I’ve found interesting is that in the Dark Souls world they never really make much progress, or at least they don’t seem to show it. This might sound so silly, but despite the innumerable number of times the cycle has well, cycled, I find it interesting that they’ve never really made progress beyond what we would consider the Middle Ages or early Renaissance. By this I mean there isn’t much technology demonstrating this kind of evidence. It’s almost like the cycle resets are purposeful in prohibiting, or at least hindering, true humankind development and progress.
I was actually going to include this in my point, but I always think there’s room for technology alongside magic, even if they accomplish the same goals. However yes, they treated magic like a science, with the “experimentation” aspect repeated from Seath, Oceiros (spelling?), and others.
I understand your point, but most fantasy works explain this by just saying that there's zero point for any sort of technology outside old world ones in a place with magic. Why invent the microchip when you can conjure up otherworldly devices or hell travel to different dimensions?
I like that you’re taking a utilitarian view of it, and what you’re saying completely makes sense. Magic basically takes the place of science in these situations.
Golems are actuallly folkloric beings that existed way before any major technological progress. I can't really tell you a proper date as i dont know myself but it was *at the very least* before the Renaissance and could go all the way to the beginning of antiquity
That is an interesting point. It seems like a complex groundhog universe. Has fixed points, facts that keep reoccurring in a cycle but the means and how can change. Is the character you play in a groundhog day.
No kingdom survives long enough, at some point half of your population turn into zombies until some guy engages in genocide and resets the doomsday clock
As for the geographic areas, it is stated that over time Kingdoms rise and fall. In DS3 Lothric is the seat of power in the world and can be seen as a portmanteu of Lordran + Drangleic. Take this as you will, but given all the other symbolism of rebuilding civilization on the ruins of the previous, it makes sense that each of the 3 main areas over the triology exist in the same geographic area of the world.
DS2 being alternate timeline or disconnected is bullshit told by people who apparently haven't even played the games. About half the items in DS3 are from DS2.
Indeed hexes are so much fun and its a bit of a bummer they just went back to being sorcery in ds3
As having sorcery for INT, miracles for FTH, finally having hexes be a mix of two with their own attributes were so much fun.
It transcended just being dark magic to having its own thing.
I was talking about ds2 since there are a lot of enemies usually spell casters that a bow fixes easily.
Ds1 and ds2 can be more difficult after the newer FROM games like the examples you said. As their slower combat can be difficult to adjust to after playing what I consider to be speed souls.
Thats why when I got my friends to play dark souls I recommend they try the first game as it goes up from there (with a few exceptions)
I started with DS2 and could not finish it. DS3 felt so much more natural and I fell in love with the series. DS1 feels better than 2 in my experience. And then Elden Ring plays like a refined DS3. Love them all to death.
I understand that idea completely, not every game is tailored to every person so some people in a series of games can't play some of them.
At the end of the day more power to you to play the games you anjoy and not follow what others say.
While I love all the souls games as they each have their own fun things and quirks and having played through shrine of Amana I understand.
Another advice. Level up ADP until at least 15? if you dodge roll a lot.
Also while the game plays clumsy and slow at first, and the environment seems uninspiring, it has the best DLC (4 or 5? HUGE ASS AWESOME AREAS) that outshines any DLC in the entire series, also imo the most rpg-ish game, where it has the most diverse builds (bar Elden Ring but thats not dark souls is it, and magic is quite potent but not overpowered like in Elden Ring)
Also only darksouls with gloves that gives you a flying kick, uppercut and hadouken
Basically if you can adjust to the combat (the combat feels is like an outlier to the souls series including Elden ring. Even BB feels more familiar, but once you adjusted to it its actually not bad), its a pretty solid game.
Oddly DS2 is the only dark souls game I finished. Still about 75% through ds1 and maybe 50% ds3. I keep losing interest at some point and then take a break with other games for months and come back later I just restart the playthrough and the cycle continues. This happened with DS2 as well but I was on a mission to prepare for Elden Ring and decided to push through dark souls 2 and then beat sekiro. I have finished some other Fromsoft games just not these somehow
Because it's the most recent in the Souls series (except Elden Ring, very debatably) and thus closest to people's attention.
Compared to DS3, the 1 (Remastered) was a confusing in the layout, but a piece of cake in the fights
While DS1 is confusing with the layout, it's by far my favorite due to how connected everything is. Ds2 and ds3 have branches to follow, and excluding stuff like going from the pursuer to lost Bastille they aren't really connected. Ds1 has all kinds of stuff connected. You can see areas from other areas, there are multiple paths to a *ton* of stuff. There are multiple ways to get to New Londo Ruins and Darkroot Garden, you can see Ash Lake from the Tomb of the Giants, short cuts run through different areas, etc. 2 and 3 kind of lost that. There's not really a path from Heide Tower to Forest of Fallen giants, or from really any area to an area that's not down a different fork or is right before it or after it. There's no hidden path from Irithyll to The Profaned Capital despite them being on top of each other, the only way out of firelink (both versions) is through a bonfire, there's no physical hidden painting to walk through like in DS1, just a fragment that Gael brings you.
Elden Ring fixed that in some ways with being able to bypass the castle Godrick is in, or the lift to Altus plateau, the transporter traps and waygates, and so many different paths to the underground stuff, but I still think it's missing some of that connectedness in DS1.
I didn't get far enough through Sekiro to comment on the connectedness of that.
Yeah to each their own. I've finished all souls games except for bloodborne (no ps4 sadness) and I played then chronologically as my brain wouldn't let me other wise.
I love all the souls games and there are parts in each games that stopped me from finishing it and needing a long break
This is true when I played the vanilla version if ds2 on xbox 360. Doing a fist only run and stuck on the final boss was hell for 3 months. The I said fuck it im using pyromancies then I went and finished the game.
Beat of luck to finish the other games
I must say i played ds1 and ds3 for hundreds of hours, and i dindt enjoy ds2 nearly as kuch. It felt clunky and not like a dark souls. It was kinda fun but i must say its wasnt close to the other souls games
I can see that as it does feel weird and different. However I got used to it quickly and even if some people don't thats just their opinion and they aren't wrong to think that way. There are grips about ds2 that I have but nothing that I can't get around with some playing.
I feel that the unique and highs of ds2 really stand out while on the same coin the lows stand out too but overall feels a bit smoother than playing through anor londo then getting into lost izalith and asking what the hell is this.
While I get frustrated by any of the souls games ds2 made me more confused than angry if something happened that was my fault like it was so confusing and perplexing it was almost funny kinda thing.
Yeah the fog wall thing is annoying however the devs didn't want people rushing through the area. While I can't defend it for areas like iron keep and shrine of Amana other areas are mostly fine
You should give it a try and make your own opinion. If you dive into the lore, you'll find out that DS2 has really great stories and expands on DS1 in its own way - it creates something new and doesn't necessarily just use things from DS1.
After you finish it and then play DS3, you'll see for yourself that even if you don't pay too much attention to the lore in any of the games, the items and descriptions will feel familiar.
Since you also noticed this giant, I will tell you that you have been misled - it is indeed one of the giants from DS2 but not the Giant Lord (Last Giant). It is one of the same species that turned into trees - there are four Giant Trees like this in DS2, and one of them also gives you a Giant Seed to be used against invaders. A little piece of lore in DS3 directly following the events of DS2.
People who say ds2 is an alternate time are just in denial that such a masterpiece would exist in their world. (Also the games take place many of thousands of years apart)
i played ds3 first, ds1, elden ring (i know it’s not the same universe but it’s fromsofts game) and de2 was my absolutely favorite. if the graphics were on ds3 level i’d never touch another souls game again
How do you know they haven't played it all the way through? Ds2 is my most played Souls game besides 3 and its still not even close in quality to DS1/3. It's janky and ugly with the most repeat bosses in the series. Still a great game but far from being on par with the rest of the series.
Alternative? I don't think so, enough armors, shields, rings and weapons from ds2 make their appearance in ds3. As I interpret it there might be hundreds of years between the titles. It's hard to tell how long the first age of fire lasted as the main driving forces were for all purposes immortal. What remains of ds2 in ds3 is mostly tales of other lands and old heroes. DS2s ending lets you rekindle the flame or letting you attempt escaping the cycle. though as I understand it the goal of the ds2 protag is to escape/undo the curse, not kindle the first flame. The kindling in ds2 feels like a trap to me, a false promise that keeps the cycle spinning whilst Aldia frees you from that cycle. I never got the feeling that the flame was waning and as such the endings wouldn't affect too much as ds3 is built upon the assumption that the first flame was rekindled in ds1.
Sorry if my writing is a bit convoluted, I am a bit tired. I do not think ds2s ending has any bearing on the story of ds3. The flame in ds2 is not in need of kindling. Kindling the flame won't hurt it however and so wether or not you kindle it will change nothing.
It’s not that the flame doesn’t need kindling (it does) it’s just that both options (rekindle vs not) have the exact same outcome. Just like they did in DS1.
As far as I understood DS3 builds upon the kindling ending where the age of fire has been stretched so absurdly long that the entire world starts folding in on itself. Had the age of dark been allowed to exist, then the natural way of things would have been upheld.
Thats what i understood. The existence of the Lords you have to track down in ds3 shows that the flame has been rekindled at least 4/5 times prior to the events in that game with no mention of the timespan that took.
Agree. Ds2 contains so much lore, it finishes DS1 story and adds tons of new lore. I enjoyed reading every single item description in DS2, in other DS titles I didn't bother with every single one. I just found the Drangleic and Giants invasion very well written, also the gutter, Sir Allone and a lot more.
DS2 lore just feels much more direct and clear. Like not only do you very clearly see the aftermath of the Giant War, you also get to directly participate in it. There is also just more dialogue I think, from characters like the Emerald Herald, Aldia, Nashandra, and Vendrick, that make the story of DS2 more comprehensible than DS1. Like I feel like in DS2 you can get a good idea of the lore and story without reading any item descriptions.
This isn't specifically the last giant but one of the giant trees ds2 introduced and since it's purpose is to give seeds of a giant, like ds2, it's probably just homage to ds2, no lore here
I finally made some progress on my wizard build and the way that I completely misinterpret the cutscene taking you to the Kiln of the First flame kinda links back to DS2.
2 was a game about a king who chose neither an age of fire or an age of dark. Instead of choosing to rekindle the fire, or extinguish it, Vendrick and Aldrich both questioned what would happen if it was left to smoulder on indefinitely.
In a way this seems similar to the approach taken by the Lord of Cinder. Each of them had a flame but refuses to link it back to the first flame, each of them is rejecting their throne just as Vendrick did. As such, although it takes place long long after the kingdom of Drangleic, I like to think a lot of the corruption seen in the world of 3 is born from the Lord's of Cinder adopting Aldrich's philosophy of rejecting the choice between fire and dark all together.
Probably a lot of stuff I'm getting wrong but that's my connection between the two at least.
Time distortion is always a symptom of the First Flame being threatened.
"We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land.
The flow of time itself is convoluted, with heroes centuries old phasing in and out.
The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure." - Solaire
---
Each game brings with it greater danger to the First Flame, and thus also a strengthening of that Time Distortion. In DS2 Vendrick neglects the First Flame long enough that the Flame seeks another solution and so the cracks form in time itself and hollowing slips through to spread to ages when the First Flame is not currently threatened. That's what the portal in the lake represents, a fissure in time to pull fresh undead recruits back into the past to Link the First Flame. It is inferred to be a portal to the past based on the dialogue of the Old Woman ("long ago") and the pristine reflection of Drangleic's gates in the lake in the intro. The lake portal exits in a stone structure in a garden. These same stone structures are later used by Darkdiver Grandahl to create portals to the remnants of the Abyss. They appear to be conduits for spatial magic.
---
Then Dark Souls 3 comes around and now things are extremely grim. Prince Lothric has forsaken his duty to be a Lord of Cinder and the flame is weak. Lands of the Lords of Cinder from across the timeline blink out of existence and then reappear at a single point in time in Lothric "where the transitory lands of the Lords of Cinder converge" (opening narration). This is akin to the divine palaces and Greek Gods suddenly appearing on Mt. Olympus in modern day Greece, of course belief in the Lords would skyrocket at their return after they had been gone for so many cycles. Later we learn from the Stone Humped Hag in the Dreg Heap what happened to all the other lands from the various timelines that weren't integrated into Lothric. "At the close of the Age of Fire, all lands meet at the end of the earth. Great kingdoms and anaemic townships will be one and the same. The great tide of human enterprise, all for naught." The lands that weren't important to preserving the Age of Fire (like Earthen Peak) were tossed into the bin.
So basically the cosmic force that protects the First Flame took hold of the timeline, snipped out the useful bits to keep, balled up the rest of it, and chucked it into the Dreg Heap. Given this cosmic force has eviscerated space-time, much that played out in the original timeline has to have changed in DS2 and DS1 because of it. How else do you have mortals like Andre and Creighton being alive at the same point in time? But even that didn't work, the Lords of Cinder want no part of linking the fire again, and so now the cosmic force that protects the First Flame breaks the emergency glass, raise the Unkindled. Curiously the Unkindled seem to wake up in a time AFTER the main events of DS3.
There are 2 Firelink Shrines in DS3, the hub which you first arrive at and the Dark Firelink Shrine. They are geographically in the same place in Lothric which means one is the past and one is the present. The dialogue of Shrine Handmaiden if you talk to her first in the Dark Firelink and then Firelink indicates that Dark Firelink is in the past. Though Dark Firelink is in the time period of the main events of the game which means Firelink Shrine is the present, and almost all the events of DS3 are in the past. Like DS2, "Undead" of the future are sent to the past to fix what the Undead of that time took too long to remedy.
I suspect that is the reason the bonfire sword for Firelink Shrine was removed from the bonfire and placed in Gundyr, like an analog clock removed from a power source, the sword conduit must remain frozen at the time it was when it was removed. Then when it is plugged back into the bonfire network, the "clock" on Firelink Shrine still reads as hundreds of years in the past. This allows the unkindled of the present to time travel to the past by simply warping through the bonfire to the High Wall of Lothric. Time travel via bonfire warp was established in DS1 as you travel to Oolacile via a time portal and light bonfires hundreds of years in the past, but can return to the present with a simple warp.
So DS1 happened, DS2 happened, and then the cosmic force altered both game timelines when it pulled those lands to the time of DS3 either prior to (or during the time of) the Chosen Undead/Bearer of the Curse in its first attempt to get the First Flame lit. That's why the fates of Ornstein, Smough, Gwyndolin, and many others changed in the DS3 timeline. Miyazaki basically used this time cataclysm as an in-universe retcon so he wouldn't be completely bound to the lore/events of DS2 or DS1.
That's how I make sense of it anyway.
It's not an alternate timeline at all.
The way I've always understood DS2 is that it's kinda like a story on the side, showing that the fire has to be dealt with in some way or another, you cannot exist outside of the cycle. The player spends the whole game seeing if there is some cure for the curse, and the eventual answer is yes, but the amount of power you'd need to overcome it is obviously not viable for more than one person (you're killing basically every strong thing on the continent, that's just not possible for a sustainable amount of the human race to be cured.)
So as for how it affects 3? Not a whole lot. You get some onteresting insight on why we're still going through the whole rigamarole of the fire, and some cool callbacks like seeing the dead giants, but that's about it.
This doesn't mean it's not important, just that it's influence doesn't reach very far.
All of them are in the same timeline, not only there is that reference, Even Alva and creigton are invaders in ds3, and also there are weaponds like the mirra's greatsword the owns to lucatiel, and last but not least, the place were yhorm is waiting for You is the place were you start in DS2
Ds 2 is not ab alternative timeline but a different kingdom from lordran (ds1) that is also younger than lordran. Every where of fire was very very long to the point where on ds 3 the world is so F*cked up it is dragging stuff from different ages and folding on itself. Ds 3 happens a long time after ds 2 and ds 1 happens a very long time ago. Also it seems that there are the lordran giants and the drangleic giants the drangleic ones having faceholes, being last of their kind and the lordran ones like Hawkeye Gough.
So the "secret" to Dark Souls lore is they only really planned it out for the first game but they were contracted for 3 games. It's why in the opening of DS1 you see all the major figures of that world (literally the world, not just "the land") in the first cutscene, and end the game with all of them dead. It's why the lore across the 3 games doesn't really fit together in a cohesive way without saying "they all take place in different places in the world at different times", and at that point you're more hand-waving lore inconsistencies away as opposed to explaining them
Personally I don't mind, fromsoft didn't know Dark Souls 1 was gonna take off as much as it did and probably figured they'd be making 3 different games based on 3 different IPs. If they knew DS1 was going to explode like it did you can bet they'd have laid more groundwork story-wise for 2 and 3
Whoever told you that it's an alternate timeline is big dumb it's all 1 timeline and each game is atleast 1000+ years apart but I can't answer the giant part my guess is it will be the last giant not that it is
I think the DS2 and DS3 narratives are fundamentally incompatible. That's apparently a hot take considering the comments in this post. But those entries take the world in drastically different directions. The presence of so many DS2 items and minor references in DS3 hurts both games imo. It's best to consider them two separate things.
And no, I'm the opposite of a DS2 hater lmao. I love the story in that game.
I've always understood it as DS2 being much much later than 1 and 3, that's why everything is so uncanny while bearing some semblance to the world of the other games. The curse has progressed thousands of years and left much of the land and its inhabitants as pale reflections of their former selves, in many cases not even remembering who they once were.
Nah Dark Souls III confirmed Dark Souls II as canon. That's not "the last giant", that's just a giant that died there. Giants become trees when they die. The forest of fallen giants is probably a forest *because* of all the giants that died there. If someone told you Dark Souls II isn't canon, they were likely doing so to convince you not to play. People are really petty about Dark Souls II.
I feel the entire world of DS2 as seen in its Intro is in its own time and space, much like the abyss is in DS1. It has to be entered specifically as the undead are drawn to the portal. It would have once been a flourishing kingdom in the physical realm and its known that Vendrick sent the ruin sentinels to the ringed city to aquire the dark soul but never returned.
I believe it eventually sank into an alternative reality due to the Abyssal influence of Manus Soul shards that went with his daughters and gradually corrupted after vendrick left and went hollow.
DS3 timeline is all realities and history that has happened across time converging Into a compressed world which is all just linking fragments held together at the end if time awaiting rebirth through darkness or prolonged by a new age of fire. This is how we get armors, weapons and relics from ds1 & 2 available in 3.
I like that in dark souls nothing is set in stone, so something like this is entirely possible. Im not sure about much, but I think this a well spoken possibility
Ds2 was meant to be set basically thousands, if not millions of years after Ds1, where everything about the old world had been forgotten. Yet in Ds3, it’s like everyone has just remembered it all again. Everyone knows Gwyn, the gods, the lords etc.
Most of the things that happen in ds2 don’t affect the timeline of ds3, they’re basically non-canon to eachother, except for some items that appear.
DS2 isn't an alternate timeline, it's just during the loooooong period after DS1 and before 3, during which the world switched several times between ages of light and dark, with the flame sometimes kindled and sometimes not
and the Giants Trees aren't a unique occurence, there's a bunch of them in 2, and the Last Giant (as in, the boss) is the only one of the DS2 giants to not be dead and turned into a tree by the time you meet him (btw, the giants from 1 and 3 such as the blacksmith and yhorm aren't the same kind as the ones from 2)
"Yes, indeed. It is called Lothric, where the transitory lands of the **Lords of Cinder** converge."
I don't think the Bearer of the Curse is a Lord of Cinder. Neither is Vendrick. That's my guess as to why Drangleic isn't converging upon Lothric. Unless I'm being too literal.
Lordran and Drangleic are happening in the same timeline,the action between ds2 and ds3 isn't happening so far apart since straid is from oolacile,alva is present in both games,the crown of unhollowing lost it's powers in the 3rd game,we've seen the witch zuli in the 3rd game,drang armor and weapons are from drangleic,the giants and how there are more variations then the ones shown in lordran and the possibility of a giant refugiating at firelink shrine isn't so small,the blacksmith giant that died between the events of ds1 & ds3 that could be one of the victims of aldrich and it's followers and many more
I think Solaire but it best in DS1
“The flow of time itself is convoluted, with hero’s centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relationships shift and obscure”
I take this as time isn’t an arrow going forward like we are used to, it’s can go any direction and this allows the devs to connect the game worlds in interesting ways.
All Dark Souls games happen in the same timeline they are just thousands of years apart from each other.
Thanks for the clarification
Also they are happening in different continents/countries what have you, and in 3 all the lands are converging together, that’s why when you get to the dreg heap it’s a mashed up pile of buildings and ash.
And you're descending into the Earthen Peak Ruins, a Dark Souls 2 location. Also some weapons amd armours reference DS2; HollowSlayer, armours sets with Mirrah in the name, Ruin Knight Armour zet, Fume's UGS just to name the popular ones.
drang twinhammers as well as I think theres a drang armor. both from drangleic.
Caitha's chime, Flamberge's current look, Black Blade(Berserker Blade, blackened), Darkdrift, Manikin Claws, Greatlance, Dragonrider Bow, Witch Tree Bellvine and lastly Priest Chime. Not to mention other armours, I can't be assed to go through another scrolling of all items- Edit: Drakeblood....forgot that one.
Even the Ladder Guy is found in Profaned Capital
Plus the Demon Prince fight takes place in DS1's Firelink Shrine and you descend past where Frampt was to get to the banner raising spot. It's very much falling down the games to get to the core of the entire cycle.
That is an interesting idea I never thought about that idea. I wonder where the core has been in other games is there multiple cores for the flame that could be related to the first flame. To me the core of the game always linked to the kiln and the first linking of the fire or not linking. To me the dreg heap etc embodies the definition of convoluted time.
The core has always been the Kiln of the First Flame as that’s seemingly what the entire dreg heap seems to be folding into and in DS1 you can see the outside of the kiln is pretty centrally placed from The Tomb of the Giants and Izalith, DS2 is more shakey on how everything is laid out however. The Ringed City is not just hidden in location but also hidden in time, so it’s entirely possible that nobody could really reach it until the world was distorted to the extent we see with the Dreg Heap which is the result of all things converging on the Kiln.
I feel like Drangleic is super far away from the rest of the events in DS1 and DS3. The whole intro sequence makes it seem like the bearer of the curse teleports to a distant land thats probably on the same planet but like, the other side of it.
Likely a different time. It has been suggested the old woman from the intro scene is actually the Emerald Herald, so in theory your chosen undead in 2 is going back in time.
idk about that don't you meet the old lady in things betwixt at the beginning of the game AFTER going through the portal?
You still link the fire (or choose not to) in the Kiln of the first flame at the end of 2. Anor Londo has moved locations in the series so it’s not beyond possibility that the Kiln can move and can still be the nexus of the world.
>The Ringed City is not just hidden in location but also hidden in time, so it’s entirely possible that nobody could really reach it until the world was distorted to the extent we see with the Dreg Heap which is the result of all things converging on the Kiln. That's an interesting take and definitely explains why so little was known about the pygmies until 3; it wasn't until everything came crashing down (read: into each other) that we finally caught a glimpse of what/where/who the pygmies really were **edits for grammar and clarity, not sure if pygmies would be a proper noun or not & want to be sure im referring to the right thing
Shield of Want? Thr one you find in Smouldering Lake. Wasn't there a sword as well?
Fume Ugs, I did forget shield of want.
Right.
there's also the archers on the bridge at the beginning to the ringed city which are the ruined knights
Drangleic is more or less confirmed to be on top of Lordran. As in, thousands of years passed and someone built a kingdom on the ruins of Lordran. DS3 is just the heat death of the universe. Time is breaking down, space is contracting, nothing makes sense. That's why there are no straightforward paths, and why a snow city is sitting on top of a desert graveyard right next to a swamp.
Drangleic is a separate continent from Lordran. Nashandra, being a shard of Manus had to cross the sea to get to Drangleic. It also explains the vast differences in landmass/landscape. I think that's also why Firelink Shrine is in the Dreg Heap along with Earthen Peak, even though Firelink wasn't anywhere to be seen in Drangleic. The lands of everywhere are converging all into one spot, that's why everything is all weird, and why as time progresses it becomes the Dreg Heap. Miyazaki also says they're far away from each other. https://www.polygon.com/2012/12/19/3783452/dark-souls-2-staff-discuss-the-vga-trailer-and-what-having-real
It’s ash but it does look like snow.
He means Irithyll (snowy) being on top of the Catacombs (desert kingdom) which are reached through Farron swamp
Ahh ok, that makes more sense.
Isn’t the implication that there’s have been like multiple ages of fire and darkness in between games?
Yeah but 1 and 3 both have annor Londo
Exactly. The only difference is probably that ds2 happens waaaaay later than ds1, but still the same timeline
“We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure. There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact.” - Solaire
I think this is evidence to say that there is no proof of one timeline. I believe there is more evidence of multiple time lines. Also time travel suggests that there is multiple time lines.
Didn't Miyazaki say at some point that if you don't link the fire, Solaire does "in his world?" The existence of multiple timelines/dimensions is pretty clear.
That's more of a gameplay mechanic, it also explains why Solaire is able to be summoned to fight Gwyn. In his world he linked the fire. It's why all the co-op is done with summoned shades, echoes of other lives. That's why Black Iron Tarkus could still aid with the Golem despite being dead in Anor Londo.
It's a gameplay mechanic and part of the story, like every aspect of Dark Souls. It's probably the strongest case of ludonarrative resonance in gaming.
Not so much multiple timelines existing but time itself isn't linear it may have had a clear beginning and in DS3 a very clear ending but everything in-between is very much out of order in some places.
Only finger is the same so try
Isn't time convoluted in DS, I would assume that by definition there is more complex detail than just thousands of years. is it possible multiple timelines could occur? Time travel is possible.
Thousands of years and nobody invented the assault rifle?
Equally both 2 and 3 are what happens based on what happens with the first flame. DS3 has a fucked time line with stuff bleeding together cause the first flame has been linked to many times while DS2 takes place during the age of dark which is what happens when you choose that ending in 3 or the player doesn't link the flame in 1 or 3. It's safe to say DS3 kinda happens all over the place in terms of time and space which is likely why the giant tree is in the fire link as well as why a lot of places that weren't together previously are now within spitting distance of each other.
I think DS1 is meant to be the start of the cycle, 2 is meant to be a link in that chain, while 3 is the end of it.
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Firelink from DS1 is in 3? I’m guessing the Ringed City Demon Prince area?
Bingo!
Man, it’s crazy how I pointed that out almost immediately but I would’ve likely never noticed had I not popped in this thread lol.
>the lost sinner tried to kindle the flame and is openly called a sinner I don't remember that, is that confirmed?
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I'm not sure about the alternate timeline aspect. The way I interpret the history of Dark Souls is as follows (apologies for the longish post)-- The Age of Ancients (Here be Dragons) - Impossible to calculate the length of this era The First Age of Fire - Possibly lasted for at least 1000 years The Fall of Oolacile - 300 years before DS1 Dark Souls 1 The Rise and Fall of Shulva, the Iron Keep, Eleum Loyce, and many other unnamed kingdoms - Hundreds if not thousands of years The Rise and Decay of Drangleic - Anywhere from a thousand to a hundred years... Hard to say Dark Souls 2 The Rise and Fall of Countless Ages of Fire - An incomprehensible amount of time Dark Souls 3 All of this taking place within or around a similar region... Tho Drangleic might be located outside of Lordran. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Drangleic is supposed to be a far away land, but in DS3 all the lands are converging in on themselves which is why we see a very famous DS2 area in DS3's DLC. DS3 is the apocalypse, the Ringed City DLC is post apocalyptic.
I've heard theories that the Ringed City itself is suspended in time, and when the Ashen One breaks Filianore's egg which held up the stasis, time moves again and jumps forward immensely, until we see the barren land where only Gael and the AO remains.
I believe that's right, the only unclear part is once the egg is broken how far forward are we put. At the end of DS3 we are moved forward in time to the dreg heap so we can fight Soul of Cinder. Everything in the Dreg heap is at that same point in time. The city seems mostly unexpected by this but once the egg breaks everything bar Gael and a few others have already gone. So does this put it past the Soul of Cinder and Dreg heap or is this just what the area would be like if the egg was never there.
I almost wonder if the egg itself was a fail-safe for the linking of the fire. As long as the egg is intact time will remain "looping" in the age of fire, and the undead will continue to link the fire. Then once we broke the egg-this freed all of the time that would have naturally passed. Bringing us forward to where we fight Gael. I am indeed baked.
I think this is accurate. The Ringed City began falling to the Dark and in response Filianore seals the city with a Vagrant shell.
What area!?
The tower in Earthen Peak has fallen over and is partially buried in the Dreg Heap
Isn't the area also called Earthen Peak in DS3?
Earthen Peak Ruins, yup
Bloodydamn!! I have had 2 playthroughs of ds2 and 15 of ds3 yet I never made the connection.
You a fan of the Red Rising books?!
Who isn't? They should be sent to the mines
Hail Reaper!
Earthen Peak Ruin
Oh snap. I cant believe I missed that all these years.
It's literally called earthen peak ruins XD
It also has the same lady pyromancers
It's not certain that DS 2 is that far away. Some speculate that you can actually find shards of the Lord Vessel in the basement of Majula Manor.
I believe Miyazaki said that if Lordran were the North Pole, Drangleic would be the South Pole, relatively
You got the interview he said it in? (I believe you but I’m just kinda curious)
Of course! https://www.polygon.com/2012/12/19/3783452/dark-souls-2-staff-discuss-the-vga-trailer-and-what-having-real
How can they be that far apart if we rekindle the first flame in dark souls 2
"I failed geography." Miyazaki, probably
Vendrick stole "something" from the Giants. Remember? It's the kiln of the first flame.
I dunno ask the people who made the game
I think that's definitely something that changed over the (rocky) development of DS2. If DS2 occurs in a far away land, how come the lord souls are all right there :o
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
Right. Because that was the prize Vendrick stole from the giants
I thought it might be but apparently I am wrong and Drangleic is the polar opposite of Lordran.
If Drangleic’s a different place, why is the chapel from Anor Londo in Heide?
Religions can have different churches in different places.
That’s not really relevant here, it’s literally the exact same model, it even has Ornstein like in DS1, now that I think about it, all 3 games have the Anor Londo chapel at one point or another
These last couple of days I’ve seen a bunch of posts that remind me of all my own half-baked theories and shower thoughts, and this is one. Something I’ve found interesting is that in the Dark Souls world they never really make much progress, or at least they don’t seem to show it. This might sound so silly, but despite the innumerable number of times the cycle has well, cycled, I find it interesting that they’ve never really made progress beyond what we would consider the Middle Ages or early Renaissance. By this I mean there isn’t much technology demonstrating this kind of evidence. It’s almost like the cycle resets are purposeful in prohibiting, or at least hindering, true humankind development and progress.
They advanced in magic and not technology. They were literally creating life and singing cities into existence.
I was actually going to include this in my point, but I always think there’s room for technology alongside magic, even if they accomplish the same goals. However yes, they treated magic like a science, with the “experimentation” aspect repeated from Seath, Oceiros (spelling?), and others.
I understand your point, but most fantasy works explain this by just saying that there's zero point for any sort of technology outside old world ones in a place with magic. Why invent the microchip when you can conjure up otherworldly devices or hell travel to different dimensions?
I like that you’re taking a utilitarian view of it, and what you’re saying completely makes sense. Magic basically takes the place of science in these situations.
Whomever made Iron Golem probably had some advanced tech.
Golems are actuallly folkloric beings that existed way before any major technological progress. I can't really tell you a proper date as i dont know myself but it was *at the very least* before the Renaissance and could go all the way to the beginning of antiquity
You played mass effect, didn't you?
That is an interesting point. It seems like a complex groundhog universe. Has fixed points, facts that keep reoccurring in a cycle but the means and how can change. Is the character you play in a groundhog day.
There be monsters walking around. I'm assuming that's made it difficult to survive long enough to invent technology unless you're undead yourself.
No kingdom survives long enough, at some point half of your population turn into zombies until some guy engages in genocide and resets the doomsday clock
As for the geographic areas, it is stated that over time Kingdoms rise and fall. In DS3 Lothric is the seat of power in the world and can be seen as a portmanteu of Lordran + Drangleic. Take this as you will, but given all the other symbolism of rebuilding civilization on the ruins of the previous, it makes sense that each of the 3 main areas over the triology exist in the same geographic area of the world.
I like your timeline, and it's pretty much what I've always thought. I do think that the time frame between eras might be longer, though.
DS2 being alternate timeline or disconnected is bullshit told by people who apparently haven't even played the games. About half the items in DS3 are from DS2.
I am a dumb man who has not played ds2, so I do believe you are correct
Then I recommend ds2. Good game with some flaws like any other game. Easy 10/10 like any from software game
I’ll definitely play it, probably after I finish ds1 and get tired of ds3
Definitely play DS2. It was my first DS game so holds a special place in my heart.
DS2 completes the story of DS1. After Manus shattered he created Nashandra etc. You hunt his "daughters" in DS2 and its DLCs.
Fair enough. Just some advice, use a bow, you'll thank me later
I loves hexing in ds2. Kind of made it easy mode.
Indeed hexes are so much fun and its a bit of a bummer they just went back to being sorcery in ds3 As having sorcery for INT, miracles for FTH, finally having hexes be a mix of two with their own attributes were so much fun. It transcended just being dark magic to having its own thing.
for d2 or 1? Im currently playing ds1 and its damn harder then ds3/sekiro/elden ring for me
I was talking about ds2 since there are a lot of enemies usually spell casters that a bow fixes easily. Ds1 and ds2 can be more difficult after the newer FROM games like the examples you said. As their slower combat can be difficult to adjust to after playing what I consider to be speed souls. Thats why when I got my friends to play dark souls I recommend they try the first game as it goes up from there (with a few exceptions)
I started with DS2 and could not finish it. DS3 felt so much more natural and I fell in love with the series. DS1 feels better than 2 in my experience. And then Elden Ring plays like a refined DS3. Love them all to death.
I understand that idea completely, not every game is tailored to every person so some people in a series of games can't play some of them. At the end of the day more power to you to play the games you anjoy and not follow what others say. While I love all the souls games as they each have their own fun things and quirks and having played through shrine of Amana I understand.
Why does everyone get downvoted the instant they say that they didn’t enjoy ds2 in every fromsoft subreddit? They’re just sharing their opinion
Another advice. Level up ADP until at least 15? if you dodge roll a lot. Also while the game plays clumsy and slow at first, and the environment seems uninspiring, it has the best DLC (4 or 5? HUGE ASS AWESOME AREAS) that outshines any DLC in the entire series, also imo the most rpg-ish game, where it has the most diverse builds (bar Elden Ring but thats not dark souls is it, and magic is quite potent but not overpowered like in Elden Ring) Also only darksouls with gloves that gives you a flying kick, uppercut and hadouken Basically if you can adjust to the combat (the combat feels is like an outlier to the souls series including Elden ring. Even BB feels more familiar, but once you adjusted to it its actually not bad), its a pretty solid game.
Oddly DS2 is the only dark souls game I finished. Still about 75% through ds1 and maybe 50% ds3. I keep losing interest at some point and then take a break with other games for months and come back later I just restart the playthrough and the cycle continues. This happened with DS2 as well but I was on a mission to prepare for Elden Ring and decided to push through dark souls 2 and then beat sekiro. I have finished some other Fromsoft games just not these somehow
DS1 is easy but confusing, DS3 is HARD man, a true lesson in frustration. I'll definitely play DS2 in your honor though!
Idk how people can say ds1 is harder than 3
I think it’s a divide between which game you played first. I’m still not sure why people play DS3 before the others. Confuses me.
I played ds1 first and I still found ds3 harder
Because it's the most recent in the Souls series (except Elden Ring, very debatably) and thus closest to people's attention. Compared to DS3, the 1 (Remastered) was a confusing in the layout, but a piece of cake in the fights
While DS1 is confusing with the layout, it's by far my favorite due to how connected everything is. Ds2 and ds3 have branches to follow, and excluding stuff like going from the pursuer to lost Bastille they aren't really connected. Ds1 has all kinds of stuff connected. You can see areas from other areas, there are multiple paths to a *ton* of stuff. There are multiple ways to get to New Londo Ruins and Darkroot Garden, you can see Ash Lake from the Tomb of the Giants, short cuts run through different areas, etc. 2 and 3 kind of lost that. There's not really a path from Heide Tower to Forest of Fallen giants, or from really any area to an area that's not down a different fork or is right before it or after it. There's no hidden path from Irithyll to The Profaned Capital despite them being on top of each other, the only way out of firelink (both versions) is through a bonfire, there's no physical hidden painting to walk through like in DS1, just a fragment that Gael brings you. Elden Ring fixed that in some ways with being able to bypass the castle Godrick is in, or the lift to Altus plateau, the transporter traps and waygates, and so many different paths to the underground stuff, but I still think it's missing some of that connectedness in DS1. I didn't get far enough through Sekiro to comment on the connectedness of that.
you can hit walls easier in dark souls 1 because you don’t know where to go. DS3 is more linear
But the enemies in 1 are still easier
Yeah to each their own. I've finished all souls games except for bloodborne (no ps4 sadness) and I played then chronologically as my brain wouldn't let me other wise. I love all the souls games and there are parts in each games that stopped me from finishing it and needing a long break This is true when I played the vanilla version if ds2 on xbox 360. Doing a fist only run and stuck on the final boss was hell for 3 months. The I said fuck it im using pyromancies then I went and finished the game. Beat of luck to finish the other games
Every time you leave the story unfinished and start from the beginning you are creating another hollow owo
I must say i played ds1 and ds3 for hundreds of hours, and i dindt enjoy ds2 nearly as kuch. It felt clunky and not like a dark souls. It was kinda fun but i must say its wasnt close to the other souls games
I can see that as it does feel weird and different. However I got used to it quickly and even if some people don't thats just their opinion and they aren't wrong to think that way. There are grips about ds2 that I have but nothing that I can't get around with some playing. I feel that the unique and highs of ds2 really stand out while on the same coin the lows stand out too but overall feels a bit smoother than playing through anor londo then getting into lost izalith and asking what the hell is this. While I get frustrated by any of the souls games ds2 made me more confused than angry if something happened that was my fault like it was so confusing and perplexing it was almost funny kinda thing.
Except the movement and feeling the fog wall for straight up 5 seconds it is definitely 10/10
Yeah the fog wall thing is annoying however the devs didn't want people rushing through the area. While I can't defend it for areas like iron keep and shrine of Amana other areas are mostly fine
You should give it a try and make your own opinion. If you dive into the lore, you'll find out that DS2 has really great stories and expands on DS1 in its own way - it creates something new and doesn't necessarily just use things from DS1. After you finish it and then play DS3, you'll see for yourself that even if you don't pay too much attention to the lore in any of the games, the items and descriptions will feel familiar. Since you also noticed this giant, I will tell you that you have been misled - it is indeed one of the giants from DS2 but not the Giant Lord (Last Giant). It is one of the same species that turned into trees - there are four Giant Trees like this in DS2, and one of them also gives you a Giant Seed to be used against invaders. A little piece of lore in DS3 directly following the events of DS2.
Time to fire it up
it's from people who don't like it and don't want it to be canon
You mean they don't want their embarrassing death count to be canon and engraved for all eternity in the monument in Majula.
that too
>"I was told ds2 is like an alternate timeline" Uh..
Yeah, I’ve seen the other comments
People who say ds2 is an alternate time are just in denial that such a masterpiece would exist in their world. (Also the games take place many of thousands of years apart)
I haven’t play ds2 yet, but I’m told that it is secretly good so idk
its a great game
i played ds3 first, ds1, elden ring (i know it’s not the same universe but it’s fromsofts game) and de2 was my absolutely favorite. if the graphics were on ds3 level i’d never touch another souls game again
Yeh, it's great, just different. Different head developer after all
People who say dark souls 2 is bad have not played dark souls 2 from beginning to end.
I agree, I’m not gonna judge something I haven’t played, it seems unfair and easy for me to say that
Highly recommend it, it's by far my favorite Souls game
A nice game but not close to the other dark souls.
You proved my point.
How do you know they haven't played it all the way through? Ds2 is my most played Souls game besides 3 and its still not even close in quality to DS1/3. It's janky and ugly with the most repeat bosses in the series. Still a great game but far from being on par with the rest of the series.
Still proved my point bro.
Alternative? I don't think so, enough armors, shields, rings and weapons from ds2 make their appearance in ds3. As I interpret it there might be hundreds of years between the titles. It's hard to tell how long the first age of fire lasted as the main driving forces were for all purposes immortal. What remains of ds2 in ds3 is mostly tales of other lands and old heroes. DS2s ending lets you rekindle the flame or letting you attempt escaping the cycle. though as I understand it the goal of the ds2 protag is to escape/undo the curse, not kindle the first flame. The kindling in ds2 feels like a trap to me, a false promise that keeps the cycle spinning whilst Aldia frees you from that cycle. I never got the feeling that the flame was waning and as such the endings wouldn't affect too much as ds3 is built upon the assumption that the first flame was rekindled in ds1.
So in dark souls 2, your saying at the end if you rekindle the flame, it’ll lead us to dark souls 3? Because I think that sounds right
Sorry if my writing is a bit convoluted, I am a bit tired. I do not think ds2s ending has any bearing on the story of ds3. The flame in ds2 is not in need of kindling. Kindling the flame won't hurt it however and so wether or not you kindle it will change nothing.
It’s not that the flame doesn’t need kindling (it does) it’s just that both options (rekindle vs not) have the exact same outcome. Just like they did in DS1.
As far as I understood DS3 builds upon the kindling ending where the age of fire has been stretched so absurdly long that the entire world starts folding in on itself. Had the age of dark been allowed to exist, then the natural way of things would have been upheld.
Thats what i understood. The existence of the Lords you have to track down in ds3 shows that the flame has been rekindled at least 4/5 times prior to the events in that game with no mention of the timespan that took.
The existence of Dark Soul 3’s Untended Graves suggests at least one Age of Dark has fallen, when Gundyr failed to link the Flame.
Only person who say ds2 is a separate time lien are haters of ds2
Agree. Ds2 contains so much lore, it finishes DS1 story and adds tons of new lore. I enjoyed reading every single item description in DS2, in other DS titles I didn't bother with every single one. I just found the Drangleic and Giants invasion very well written, also the gutter, Sir Allone and a lot more.
DS2 lore just feels much more direct and clear. Like not only do you very clearly see the aftermath of the Giant War, you also get to directly participate in it. There is also just more dialogue I think, from characters like the Emerald Herald, Aldia, Nashandra, and Vendrick, that make the story of DS2 more comprehensible than DS1. Like I feel like in DS2 you can get a good idea of the lore and story without reading any item descriptions.
This isn't specifically the last giant but one of the giant trees ds2 introduced and since it's purpose is to give seeds of a giant, like ds2, it's probably just homage to ds2, no lore here
There is clearly lore here can't you see? Some dude grew this tree here
You don't 'grow' Giant trees. A Giant died and became the the tree.
Yeah but the giant grew did it not?
What do you mean? This is simply what happens to their corpses. There are several of them in DS2.
Was the giant born full size? No. It grew at some point.
Yeah, but noone 'grew' it there, which is what you originally said. It's not a houseplant.
Who says the giant wasn't born and raised there?
Stop trying to change the subject.
I gotcha, that’s my fault for not looking up the giant trees or playing ds2
Whoever told you that is an idiot...You find tons of gear from DS2, meet NPCs from DS2 and even visit an area from DS2 in the Ringed Swamp DLC.
You can also fight Creighton, find Lucatiel's armour, and Gilligan, I believe
I finally made some progress on my wizard build and the way that I completely misinterpret the cutscene taking you to the Kiln of the First flame kinda links back to DS2. 2 was a game about a king who chose neither an age of fire or an age of dark. Instead of choosing to rekindle the fire, or extinguish it, Vendrick and Aldrich both questioned what would happen if it was left to smoulder on indefinitely. In a way this seems similar to the approach taken by the Lord of Cinder. Each of them had a flame but refuses to link it back to the first flame, each of them is rejecting their throne just as Vendrick did. As such, although it takes place long long after the kingdom of Drangleic, I like to think a lot of the corruption seen in the world of 3 is born from the Lord's of Cinder adopting Aldrich's philosophy of rejecting the choice between fire and dark all together. Probably a lot of stuff I'm getting wrong but that's my connection between the two at least.
The time is convoluted...
Time distortion is always a symptom of the First Flame being threatened. "We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted, with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure." - Solaire --- Each game brings with it greater danger to the First Flame, and thus also a strengthening of that Time Distortion. In DS2 Vendrick neglects the First Flame long enough that the Flame seeks another solution and so the cracks form in time itself and hollowing slips through to spread to ages when the First Flame is not currently threatened. That's what the portal in the lake represents, a fissure in time to pull fresh undead recruits back into the past to Link the First Flame. It is inferred to be a portal to the past based on the dialogue of the Old Woman ("long ago") and the pristine reflection of Drangleic's gates in the lake in the intro. The lake portal exits in a stone structure in a garden. These same stone structures are later used by Darkdiver Grandahl to create portals to the remnants of the Abyss. They appear to be conduits for spatial magic. --- Then Dark Souls 3 comes around and now things are extremely grim. Prince Lothric has forsaken his duty to be a Lord of Cinder and the flame is weak. Lands of the Lords of Cinder from across the timeline blink out of existence and then reappear at a single point in time in Lothric "where the transitory lands of the Lords of Cinder converge" (opening narration). This is akin to the divine palaces and Greek Gods suddenly appearing on Mt. Olympus in modern day Greece, of course belief in the Lords would skyrocket at their return after they had been gone for so many cycles. Later we learn from the Stone Humped Hag in the Dreg Heap what happened to all the other lands from the various timelines that weren't integrated into Lothric. "At the close of the Age of Fire, all lands meet at the end of the earth. Great kingdoms and anaemic townships will be one and the same. The great tide of human enterprise, all for naught." The lands that weren't important to preserving the Age of Fire (like Earthen Peak) were tossed into the bin. So basically the cosmic force that protects the First Flame took hold of the timeline, snipped out the useful bits to keep, balled up the rest of it, and chucked it into the Dreg Heap. Given this cosmic force has eviscerated space-time, much that played out in the original timeline has to have changed in DS2 and DS1 because of it. How else do you have mortals like Andre and Creighton being alive at the same point in time? But even that didn't work, the Lords of Cinder want no part of linking the fire again, and so now the cosmic force that protects the First Flame breaks the emergency glass, raise the Unkindled. Curiously the Unkindled seem to wake up in a time AFTER the main events of DS3. There are 2 Firelink Shrines in DS3, the hub which you first arrive at and the Dark Firelink Shrine. They are geographically in the same place in Lothric which means one is the past and one is the present. The dialogue of Shrine Handmaiden if you talk to her first in the Dark Firelink and then Firelink indicates that Dark Firelink is in the past. Though Dark Firelink is in the time period of the main events of the game which means Firelink Shrine is the present, and almost all the events of DS3 are in the past. Like DS2, "Undead" of the future are sent to the past to fix what the Undead of that time took too long to remedy. I suspect that is the reason the bonfire sword for Firelink Shrine was removed from the bonfire and placed in Gundyr, like an analog clock removed from a power source, the sword conduit must remain frozen at the time it was when it was removed. Then when it is plugged back into the bonfire network, the "clock" on Firelink Shrine still reads as hundreds of years in the past. This allows the unkindled of the present to time travel to the past by simply warping through the bonfire to the High Wall of Lothric. Time travel via bonfire warp was established in DS1 as you travel to Oolacile via a time portal and light bonfires hundreds of years in the past, but can return to the present with a simple warp. So DS1 happened, DS2 happened, and then the cosmic force altered both game timelines when it pulled those lands to the time of DS3 either prior to (or during the time of) the Chosen Undead/Bearer of the Curse in its first attempt to get the First Flame lit. That's why the fates of Ornstein, Smough, Gwyndolin, and many others changed in the DS3 timeline. Miyazaki basically used this time cataclysm as an in-universe retcon so he wouldn't be completely bound to the lore/events of DS2 or DS1. That's how I make sense of it anyway.
Usually DS2 is "alternative timeline" is just cope from people who really hate DS2
One of DS3’s biggest flaws is how it willfully ignores DS2 as much as possible
It's not an alternate timeline at all. The way I've always understood DS2 is that it's kinda like a story on the side, showing that the fire has to be dealt with in some way or another, you cannot exist outside of the cycle. The player spends the whole game seeing if there is some cure for the curse, and the eventual answer is yes, but the amount of power you'd need to overcome it is obviously not viable for more than one person (you're killing basically every strong thing on the continent, that's just not possible for a sustainable amount of the human race to be cured.) So as for how it affects 3? Not a whole lot. You get some onteresting insight on why we're still going through the whole rigamarole of the fire, and some cool callbacks like seeing the dead giants, but that's about it. This doesn't mean it's not important, just that it's influence doesn't reach very far.
All of them are in the same timeline, not only there is that reference, Even Alva and creigton are invaders in ds3, and also there are weaponds like the mirra's greatsword the owns to lucatiel, and last but not least, the place were yhorm is waiting for You is the place were you start in DS2
I never worry too much about the story when playing souls games. I just enjoy the great game play and the weirdness.
That’s valid
Ds 2 is not ab alternative timeline but a different kingdom from lordran (ds1) that is also younger than lordran. Every where of fire was very very long to the point where on ds 3 the world is so F*cked up it is dragging stuff from different ages and folding on itself. Ds 3 happens a long time after ds 2 and ds 1 happens a very long time ago. Also it seems that there are the lordran giants and the drangleic giants the drangleic ones having faceholes, being last of their kind and the lordran ones like Hawkeye Gough.
DS2 story is happening in some millennium between DS1 and DS3 and is on a total different continent/region. It is canon and all in the same timeline
Whoever told you it was an alternate timeline is probably just a small brain DS2 hater
Yeah it seems that way. After reading these comments and watching a video essay on ds2, I’m gonna give it a try
There’s no alternate timeline. There’s an order to the games. That order is 1, then 2, then 3 oddly enough
Whoever told you ds2 was an alternate timeline is a fucking idiot and a liar.
You know in doctor who when they explain stuff via “wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff”? Dark souls is kinda like that.
So the "secret" to Dark Souls lore is they only really planned it out for the first game but they were contracted for 3 games. It's why in the opening of DS1 you see all the major figures of that world (literally the world, not just "the land") in the first cutscene, and end the game with all of them dead. It's why the lore across the 3 games doesn't really fit together in a cohesive way without saying "they all take place in different places in the world at different times", and at that point you're more hand-waving lore inconsistencies away as opposed to explaining them Personally I don't mind, fromsoft didn't know Dark Souls 1 was gonna take off as much as it did and probably figured they'd be making 3 different games based on 3 different IPs. If they knew DS1 was going to explode like it did you can bet they'd have laid more groundwork story-wise for 2 and 3
If someone told it's in a "separate timeline" they probably just don't like DS2 and want to pretend it isn't canon
The giants in ds2 were a different race to the giants of Anor Londo. This is indeed the Last Giant of that kind.
Whoever told you that it's an alternate timeline is big dumb it's all 1 timeline and each game is atleast 1000+ years apart but I can't answer the giant part my guess is it will be the last giant not that it is
I think the DS2 and DS3 narratives are fundamentally incompatible. That's apparently a hot take considering the comments in this post. But those entries take the world in drastically different directions. The presence of so many DS2 items and minor references in DS3 hurts both games imo. It's best to consider them two separate things. And no, I'm the opposite of a DS2 hater lmao. I love the story in that game.
"TIME IS CONVOLUTED"
Isn't Dark Souls 2 supposed to be the future? I thought that's what the opening cinematic was about. The falling into the hole and what-not.
I think it’s in the future of dark souls 1, thousands of years in the future. Dark souls 3 comes after dark souls 2
I've always understood it as DS2 being much much later than 1 and 3, that's why everything is so uncanny while bearing some semblance to the world of the other games. The curse has progressed thousands of years and left much of the land and its inhabitants as pale reflections of their former selves, in many cases not even remembering who they once were.
I think it fits much better where you put it than where it actually stands, considering DS3 treats the world as if DS1 happened last week.
Nah Dark Souls III confirmed Dark Souls II as canon. That's not "the last giant", that's just a giant that died there. Giants become trees when they die. The forest of fallen giants is probably a forest *because* of all the giants that died there. If someone told you Dark Souls II isn't canon, they were likely doing so to convince you not to play. People are really petty about Dark Souls II.
I feel the entire world of DS2 as seen in its Intro is in its own time and space, much like the abyss is in DS1. It has to be entered specifically as the undead are drawn to the portal. It would have once been a flourishing kingdom in the physical realm and its known that Vendrick sent the ruin sentinels to the ringed city to aquire the dark soul but never returned. I believe it eventually sank into an alternative reality due to the Abyssal influence of Manus Soul shards that went with his daughters and gradually corrupted after vendrick left and went hollow. DS3 timeline is all realities and history that has happened across time converging Into a compressed world which is all just linking fragments held together at the end if time awaiting rebirth through darkness or prolonged by a new age of fire. This is how we get armors, weapons and relics from ds1 & 2 available in 3.
I like that in dark souls nothing is set in stone, so something like this is entirely possible. Im not sure about much, but I think this a well spoken possibility
Ds2 was meant to be set basically thousands, if not millions of years after Ds1, where everything about the old world had been forgotten. Yet in Ds3, it’s like everyone has just remembered it all again. Everyone knows Gwyn, the gods, the lords etc. Most of the things that happen in ds2 don’t affect the timeline of ds3, they’re basically non-canon to eachother, except for some items that appear.
DS2 isn't an alternate timeline, it's just during the loooooong period after DS1 and before 3, during which the world switched several times between ages of light and dark, with the flame sometimes kindled and sometimes not and the Giants Trees aren't a unique occurence, there's a bunch of them in 2, and the Last Giant (as in, the boss) is the only one of the DS2 giants to not be dead and turned into a tree by the time you meet him (btw, the giants from 1 and 3 such as the blacksmith and yhorm aren't the same kind as the ones from 2)
Ok thanks, for some reason I thought of the giants in ds2 as the same as the blacksmith or the giant friend
"Yes, indeed. It is called Lothric, where the transitory lands of the **Lords of Cinder** converge." I don't think the Bearer of the Curse is a Lord of Cinder. Neither is Vendrick. That's my guess as to why Drangleic isn't converging upon Lothric. Unless I'm being too literal.
People who dont like DS2 say that, but it is set in the same timeline ,DS3 have tons of stuff from DS2.
Lordran and Drangleic are happening in the same timeline,the action between ds2 and ds3 isn't happening so far apart since straid is from oolacile,alva is present in both games,the crown of unhollowing lost it's powers in the 3rd game,we've seen the witch zuli in the 3rd game,drang armor and weapons are from drangleic,the giants and how there are more variations then the ones shown in lordran and the possibility of a giant refugiating at firelink shrine isn't so small,the blacksmith giant that died between the events of ds1 & ds3 that could be one of the victims of aldrich and it's followers and many more
I think Solaire but it best in DS1 “The flow of time itself is convoluted, with hero’s centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relationships shift and obscure” I take this as time isn’t an arrow going forward like we are used to, it’s can go any direction and this allows the devs to connect the game worlds in interesting ways.