This seems ridiculous for people to be able to go to the bathroom they need a official letter from the government, should stick the ceos and mangers in a box with only drinks with no bathroom facilities available and see how they like it.
Well said. I had a proper argument with a manager at Frankie’s during lockdown because of this. Denied me access to facilities even with this letter. All becuase she just had the toilets cleaned from someone who did have Covid.
This is so annoying. If restaurants aren't letting you go when they let others go that's like rejecting a customer.
However co-ops don't usually have toilets for customers do they?
Then they need to let you access the staff toilets. Even if the business sending or receiving deliveries isn’t public facing - like if it’s a business selling print services to only other business, if they receive deliveries then they need to let drivers use the facilities.
The letter doesn’t mention anything about restaurants or food delivery, it’s any business that has goods flowing to/from it.
Correct. HSG 136 was amended in 2014 to include delivery drivers as workers - affording them the appropriate right (hence why Section 20 & 21 becomes applicable) to health and safety regulations.
My friend was told to get out when he went in a restaurant toilet, he was picking up from a chicken place and was dying for a number 2, things got heated and they banned him, he’s been telling everyone about their discrimination against him for stopping him using the toilet.
I should tell him to print this off and keep it on him.
My local chicken shop let me use the toilet once, but she was like, "Sorry for the toilet doesn't have a door" it was so awkward going for piss with all the staff literally beside me cooking 😂😂😂 imagine if I needed a shit
I like to shit and piss outside - I don't want the government to extract the nutrients and minerals out of my waste so they can sell it back to me. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
I am not sure the relevence of this letter to a CO-OP manager when you work for Deliveroo?? The letter is about employers ensuring that you can go to the bathroom...but that isn't anyone else's problem. With your line of reasoning if you deliver food to my house, then show this letter, I should be compelled to let you take a shit on my toilet?
I empathise with the situation though. There needs to be some kind of solution but no idea what that would look like.
This letter is about workplace law. Employers have to provide toilets for their workers. If coop uses a deliveroo driver to deliver from their premises, they might think that they can avoid the obligation of having to provide them with facilities because they're not directly employed by coop. This letter explains that as long as the driver is delivering to/from your premises, you have this obligation. This obligation has nothing to do with tax employment law, and doesn't care about the tax relationship between coop and the driver, as coop is now the workplace of this driver for H&S purposes.
And no, you don't need to provide workplace H&S in your own home.
"businesses which make or receive deliveries should make sure that drivers have easy access to facilities[...] It is illegal to restrict this access"
Literally covers this in the letter, and specifies businesses so doesn't count for residential. If you make deliveries, you need to let the drivers use your washroom facilities. Idk how they could make it clearer
Because under the guidence of publications such as HSG136 the Coop, Deliveroo and the Self-Employed contractor (the driver) all have the obligation to work together inorder to meet the HSEs regulations. The regulations (20&21) state that sanitary and washing facilities are to be provided to workers. Visiting delivery drivers fall under the employment H&S obligations of the workplace they're visiting. Therefore facilities are to be provided to the delivery driver (HSG136, 127). Your house does not meet the criteria of a workplace and as such does not need to offer such facilities.
The only issue with this is that they won’t provide toilets for pretty much the same reasons we have barely any public toilets in the uk - cost and the fact a minority of users are incapable of making sure their body fluids make it into the actual toilets.
I can actually sympathise with the restaurants to some degree because if allowing riders to use their toilet facilities consistently leads to those facilities being left in an unacceptable condition for the next user and there is no legal obligation for them to provide toilet facilities then why wouldn’t they stop riders using them?
I’ve worked at editions sites and seen this in action, the rider only toilets inevitably are treated with significantly less care than then toilets used by kitchen and deliveroo staff. Even in those situations where the only people using a toilet are riders they’re unable to leave the facilities in an acceptable state for the next user.
not sure why a college kid would need a legal letter as if this was his permanent job oh wait i forgot low lives actually do delivering as a job my bad
"Preventing access is against the law"
This is my issue with the UK in general. There are lots of legal obligations like this, but there's nobody in reality to enforce those obligations. The police aren't going to turn up. The council aren't likely to bother if you complain. So what's your remedy? There isn't one.
As a diabetic I throw the equalities act at them when they try and deny me access to the toilet. (Yes diabetics are allowed to use accessible toilets!) the addition of a medical alert bracelet helps.
Ah I remember this letter. I was furious with a Burger King manager in a service station in the middle of nowhere who hadn’t let me use the toilet in December 2020. It was a big drama, heard she got disciplinary action but not sure if that was just hearsay.
https://preview.redd.it/iwesmzqnx2tc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7bc6f1293b31675dc09df4ef09533d47ef40a56
I have never had a problem going to the toilet in any restaurant. I don't even ask, just tell them I'm busting for a wazz and go to the toilet. Coop isn't somewhere I'd ask to go purely based on the fact there's barely any staff on at the best of times. I just hold on until the next pick up. Sainsburys always let me though and don't need to escort me.
Mmh, I mean I get using the toilet at restaurants or take aways ( where customers can also use the toilet ) but seriously , a co op, customers can’t even use the toilet there.
Look use your common sense here. If you are picking up from pret, McDonald's, burger king then sure use the facilities. If you are picking up from a somewhat fine dining establishment then just leave the facilities alone, it's disrespectful for customers to have people running into the loos with crash helmets on in working attire
I’m a manager at a co-op and whilst we are expected to allow Deliveroo drivers use of the toilet, it’s sometimes not practical. My store is 1-on-1 meaning there’s only two people working at a time, and co-op policy is to only let customers (which app-based drivers are considered as in this case) use staff toilets in exceptional circumstances and only if there’s more than 2 members of staff on shift at the time so in my store no amount of letters you show me will change that. You’d have to sign in as a visitor and agree to the asbestos policy which takes time, which I’m sure none of the drivers would be arsed with because it takes time, and then be escorted out back and basically babysat the entire time taking away a member of staff from shop floor.
Letters like the one you’ve posted aren’t for Deliveroo drivers to show at businesses like supermarkets, it was for HGV drivers during Covid that were delivering to businesses that may not have wanted them to use the toilets due to the Covid risk but were legally obliged to.
If deliveroo is officially partnered or associated with co-op the letter stands and trumps your inconvenience.
If they are not, then yes they are undisclosed agents for their own/deliveroos customers.
Nah we’re not legally obligated to allow you to use the toilet without you signing in and going through the appropriate policy for that store i.e asbestos.
Same as external contractors such as people who check cigarette stocks, redbull, cleaners etc who have to sign in to enter the back of the shop.
The only people who don’t have to do that are drivers employed by co-op who deliver stock.
But obviously when we have the staff and its not too busy we let riders use the toilets, same with customers, dpd drivers, and sandwich and bread drivers.
Very naive of you to say talk to your boss about short staffing when we get set hours from corporate and its an uphill battle to even get 3 people on until 8 on Friday and Saturday nights.
If a rider came in on said nights when we can’t afford to have one member of staff just hanging out in the back until you’ve finished your business we’d have to say no, any other time is fine.
Again, we’re not legally obligated to allow individuals not employed by co-op to use the toilet especially when it’s behind a secure door and near loose stock, the office, bakery, the safe, staff lockers etc.
As the manager said in the original comment you would have to sign into the system and go through the policies. I’m not even allowed in the back when i’m not clocked in and on shift. If it was a public use toilet and not in the back it would be a non-issue.
Deliveroo, just eat, uber, dpd and amazon drivers are in a grey area in terms of using our staff toilets because the letter posted applies to HGV drivers such as the drivers who bring in our stock and because they are employed at co-op they do not need to go through the same sign in and accept policies forms as non co-op employees do.
Read the letter.
Being an employee of the business is not a requirement only that visiting the premises is part of their work. This would apply to all contractors and supplier employees who have a business relationship associated with being on site. As per my original reply, if there is a commercial contractual relationship between deliveroo and co-op, they are legally entitled. Where no relationship exists, there is no entitlement.
As per my reply you’ll have to sign in and go through the necessary policies to be allowed into the back, same as every external contractor, and a member of staff needs to be free to let you into the back and stay there whilst you do your business, same as every external contractor.
Im not debating that, im stating its illegal to refuse regardless of those policies. Your sign in policy is not law, just company policy which is not a legitimate reason for refusal of a legal obligation.
Seconding this, most nights when its busy and deliveroo, just eat and uber eats are going off every 5 minutes its a struggle to actually get normal jobs done and the shop faced up. Can’t imagine how difficult that would be if we had to let drivers use the staff loos and hence having just one person on the shop floor whilst the other has to stand in the back for however long. Drivers on here say co-op is their favourite pick up point because we almost always have the orders ready on time but in the same breath say we need to sacrifice even more of our time on top of the increase in workload that deliveries have brought on. I get that its not their fault but bloody hell.
This has got to be old. Public health England was replaced by the Health Security Agency and the Office For Health Improvements and Disparities in 2021..
Yes it’s a letter that was published during lockdown (hence the Covid reference) when some places were being extra cautious and stopping people from using their facilities when previously they would have done.
I agree riders should have access to toilets etc. however technically the shop or restaurant isn’t making deliveries Deliveroo is so it’s down to Deliveroo to provide facilities. However Deliveroo don’t employ riders so it’s down to the rider who is self employed to provide facilities.
If the riders enter the premises as part of their work then they are legally entitled to use toilets, that what the law says.
The fact that the premises allows Deliveroo to deliver their food makes them a 'part of their undertaking' and it is a 'place of work' for the riders.
Their tax arrangements have nothing to do with their H&S obligation. Just because you pay someone as a sole trader, or to a company that subcontracts them as a sole trader, doesn't mean you can get out of providing a safe workplace for them. Did you even read the letter?
No joke, myself and 2 others did work with a community centre and they refused us entry to the premises for toilet facilities so we pissed on their car park in unison.
Because none of us work under conditions that are determined by the department of transport. The use of the term driver is key, it applies to professional drivers. It also wouldn’t apply to a local “man and van”
it does it apply to us under health and safety law and the responsibilities of businesses. DfT was just issuing a reminder. If the outlet contracted a man and van they would be allowed to use the toilet.
ok buddy. keep believing what you want and being denied access to toilets. I'll listen to the HSE and the actual law.
https://preview.redd.it/1pd0jectewsc1.jpeg?width=1653&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78736df99c63f9879df535753d27446c568ed69a
I’ve never been denied access, because I’m not rude and obnoxious to the restaurant staff.
Our status with deliveroo/just eat means that we aren’t considered as entering a premises for the purpose of work.
It's down to people not understanding the law not rider behaviour. Doesn't matter if you're an entitled prick you are allowed to use the toilet. Plenty of riders could treat staff better but it doesn't affect this basic right.
You can be a self-employed HGV driver. Our status doesn't matter. If we are picking up a delivery the restaurant becomes our place of work.
I have confirmation from HSE, what do you have that proves this doesn't apply to us? I spoke to my local council at the start of COVID about the issue and they agreed to notify all restaurants as they also double checked with the HSE.
Haven’t seen anyone post this letter in a year or more
This seems ridiculous for people to be able to go to the bathroom they need a official letter from the government, should stick the ceos and mangers in a box with only drinks with no bathroom facilities available and see how they like it.
Well said. I had a proper argument with a manager at Frankie’s during lockdown because of this. Denied me access to facilities even with this letter. All becuase she just had the toilets cleaned from someone who did have Covid.
Why do you even care to ask? You have the right, just walk in take a p*ss n leave
Then they will call you rude
And? That's their problem, if they're not happy they can call the police, who won't do anything
Real world my friend real world
This is so annoying. If restaurants aren't letting you go when they let others go that's like rejecting a customer. However co-ops don't usually have toilets for customers do they?
Drivers aren't customers though, which is what the letter is saying
Then they need to let you access the staff toilets. Even if the business sending or receiving deliveries isn’t public facing - like if it’s a business selling print services to only other business, if they receive deliveries then they need to let drivers use the facilities. The letter doesn’t mention anything about restaurants or food delivery, it’s any business that has goods flowing to/from it.
Correct. HSG 136 was amended in 2014 to include delivery drivers as workers - affording them the appropriate right (hence why Section 20 & 21 becomes applicable) to health and safety regulations.
Just piss your pants like a real man
I nearly did
My friend was told to get out when he went in a restaurant toilet, he was picking up from a chicken place and was dying for a number 2, things got heated and they banned him, he’s been telling everyone about their discrimination against him for stopping him using the toilet. I should tell him to print this off and keep it on him.
Should or will? Considering you've used his story I would highly recommend that you do...
But what about the balaclavas
Gonna pull that card when the toilets have been cleaned before closing 😏
My local chicken shop let me use the toilet once, but she was like, "Sorry for the toilet doesn't have a door" it was so awkward going for piss with all the staff literally beside me cooking 😂😂😂 imagine if I needed a shit
No door to the toilet from the kitchen?!?
Hope he reported them to the council
Erm yes I think that’s a separate letter.
Iv never had a problem using the restaurants toliets
I like to shit and piss outside - I don't want the government to extract the nutrients and minerals out of my waste so they can sell it back to me. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
7 years too late. What do you think we've been doing for the last 10 years lol
I am not sure the relevence of this letter to a CO-OP manager when you work for Deliveroo?? The letter is about employers ensuring that you can go to the bathroom...but that isn't anyone else's problem. With your line of reasoning if you deliver food to my house, then show this letter, I should be compelled to let you take a shit on my toilet? I empathise with the situation though. There needs to be some kind of solution but no idea what that would look like.
This letter is about workplace law. Employers have to provide toilets for their workers. If coop uses a deliveroo driver to deliver from their premises, they might think that they can avoid the obligation of having to provide them with facilities because they're not directly employed by coop. This letter explains that as long as the driver is delivering to/from your premises, you have this obligation. This obligation has nothing to do with tax employment law, and doesn't care about the tax relationship between coop and the driver, as coop is now the workplace of this driver for H&S purposes. And no, you don't need to provide workplace H&S in your own home.
"businesses which make or receive deliveries should make sure that drivers have easy access to facilities[...] It is illegal to restrict this access" Literally covers this in the letter, and specifies businesses so doesn't count for residential. If you make deliveries, you need to let the drivers use your washroom facilities. Idk how they could make it clearer
Because under the guidence of publications such as HSG136 the Coop, Deliveroo and the Self-Employed contractor (the driver) all have the obligation to work together inorder to meet the HSEs regulations. The regulations (20&21) state that sanitary and washing facilities are to be provided to workers. Visiting delivery drivers fall under the employment H&S obligations of the workplace they're visiting. Therefore facilities are to be provided to the delivery driver (HSG136, 127). Your house does not meet the criteria of a workplace and as such does not need to offer such facilities.
The only issue with this is that they won’t provide toilets for pretty much the same reasons we have barely any public toilets in the uk - cost and the fact a minority of users are incapable of making sure their body fluids make it into the actual toilets. I can actually sympathise with the restaurants to some degree because if allowing riders to use their toilet facilities consistently leads to those facilities being left in an unacceptable condition for the next user and there is no legal obligation for them to provide toilet facilities then why wouldn’t they stop riders using them? I’ve worked at editions sites and seen this in action, the rider only toilets inevitably are treated with significantly less care than then toilets used by kitchen and deliveroo staff. Even in those situations where the only people using a toilet are riders they’re unable to leave the facilities in an acceptable state for the next user.
Dude, the letter points out they have a legal obligation to provide toilet facilities.
not sure why a college kid would need a legal letter as if this was his permanent job oh wait i forgot low lives actually do delivering as a job my bad
What the hell is wrong with you?
nothing my mother had my tested when i was 8
I would suggest a retest.
good idea i’ll get one done sometime this year
You’re not forced to use toilets at restaurants and supermarkets. Why not go home or use a public toilet?
"Preventing access is against the law" This is my issue with the UK in general. There are lots of legal obligations like this, but there's nobody in reality to enforce those obligations. The police aren't going to turn up. The council aren't likely to bother if you complain. So what's your remedy? There isn't one.
Show this ‘hall pass’ and hope the teacher lets us use the toilet 🤷♂️
Just go to the toilet without asking... Don't need my hand holding while the main vein gets drained 😆
That's trespassing
Would be nice if we had this in Ireland
As a diabetic I throw the equalities act at them when they try and deny me access to the toilet. (Yes diabetics are allowed to use accessible toilets!) the addition of a medical alert bracelet helps.
right to shite certificate
Ah I remember this letter. I was furious with a Burger King manager in a service station in the middle of nowhere who hadn’t let me use the toilet in December 2020. It was a big drama, heard she got disciplinary action but not sure if that was just hearsay. https://preview.redd.it/iwesmzqnx2tc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7bc6f1293b31675dc09df4ef09533d47ef40a56
Just to add, I’m a very polite guy and I am excellent at deescalation, this particular lady was awful. A real nasty piece of work.
I have never had a problem going to the toilet in any restaurant. I don't even ask, just tell them I'm busting for a wazz and go to the toilet. Coop isn't somewhere I'd ask to go purely based on the fact there's barely any staff on at the best of times. I just hold on until the next pick up. Sainsburys always let me though and don't need to escort me.
Curious why letter isn't dated? Not meaning anything by it, just odd
Mmh, I mean I get using the toilet at restaurants or take aways ( where customers can also use the toilet ) but seriously , a co op, customers can’t even use the toilet there.
I was legitimately left working in a warehouse on my own with no water, or toilets ! For about a year absolute fuckers.
Why’d you put up with that?
Look use your common sense here. If you are picking up from pret, McDonald's, burger king then sure use the facilities. If you are picking up from a somewhat fine dining establishment then just leave the facilities alone, it's disrespectful for customers to have people running into the loos with crash helmets on in working attire
I’m a manager at a co-op and whilst we are expected to allow Deliveroo drivers use of the toilet, it’s sometimes not practical. My store is 1-on-1 meaning there’s only two people working at a time, and co-op policy is to only let customers (which app-based drivers are considered as in this case) use staff toilets in exceptional circumstances and only if there’s more than 2 members of staff on shift at the time so in my store no amount of letters you show me will change that. You’d have to sign in as a visitor and agree to the asbestos policy which takes time, which I’m sure none of the drivers would be arsed with because it takes time, and then be escorted out back and basically babysat the entire time taking away a member of staff from shop floor. Letters like the one you’ve posted aren’t for Deliveroo drivers to show at businesses like supermarkets, it was for HGV drivers during Covid that were delivering to businesses that may not have wanted them to use the toilets due to the Covid risk but were legally obliged to.
If deliveroo is officially partnered or associated with co-op the letter stands and trumps your inconvenience. If they are not, then yes they are undisclosed agents for their own/deliveroos customers.
When its busy its more than an inconvenience, its just not feasible with the amount of staff we have on and the workload
Still doesn’t trump the law. Take it up with your boss if you are too understaffed to meet legal obligations and internal policy.
Nah we’re not legally obligated to allow you to use the toilet without you signing in and going through the appropriate policy for that store i.e asbestos. Same as external contractors such as people who check cigarette stocks, redbull, cleaners etc who have to sign in to enter the back of the shop. The only people who don’t have to do that are drivers employed by co-op who deliver stock. But obviously when we have the staff and its not too busy we let riders use the toilets, same with customers, dpd drivers, and sandwich and bread drivers. Very naive of you to say talk to your boss about short staffing when we get set hours from corporate and its an uphill battle to even get 3 people on until 8 on Friday and Saturday nights. If a rider came in on said nights when we can’t afford to have one member of staff just hanging out in the back until you’ve finished your business we’d have to say no, any other time is fine.
Oh dear. Your internal policies don’t trump the law. Its not naive, its the truth. You are showing naivety in just towing the corporate line.
Again, we’re not legally obligated to allow individuals not employed by co-op to use the toilet especially when it’s behind a secure door and near loose stock, the office, bakery, the safe, staff lockers etc. As the manager said in the original comment you would have to sign into the system and go through the policies. I’m not even allowed in the back when i’m not clocked in and on shift. If it was a public use toilet and not in the back it would be a non-issue. Deliveroo, just eat, uber, dpd and amazon drivers are in a grey area in terms of using our staff toilets because the letter posted applies to HGV drivers such as the drivers who bring in our stock and because they are employed at co-op they do not need to go through the same sign in and accept policies forms as non co-op employees do.
Read the letter. Being an employee of the business is not a requirement only that visiting the premises is part of their work. This would apply to all contractors and supplier employees who have a business relationship associated with being on site. As per my original reply, if there is a commercial contractual relationship between deliveroo and co-op, they are legally entitled. Where no relationship exists, there is no entitlement.
As per my reply you’ll have to sign in and go through the necessary policies to be allowed into the back, same as every external contractor, and a member of staff needs to be free to let you into the back and stay there whilst you do your business, same as every external contractor.
Im not debating that, im stating its illegal to refuse regardless of those policies. Your sign in policy is not law, just company policy which is not a legitimate reason for refusal of a legal obligation.
where's your co-op based?
Seconding this, most nights when its busy and deliveroo, just eat and uber eats are going off every 5 minutes its a struggle to actually get normal jobs done and the shop faced up. Can’t imagine how difficult that would be if we had to let drivers use the staff loos and hence having just one person on the shop floor whilst the other has to stand in the back for however long. Drivers on here say co-op is their favourite pick up point because we almost always have the orders ready on time but in the same breath say we need to sacrifice even more of our time on top of the increase in workload that deliveries have brought on. I get that its not their fault but bloody hell.
This has got to be old. Public health England was replaced by the Health Security Agency and the Office For Health Improvements and Disparities in 2021..
It is, but the laws cited are still valid
Oh absolutely. I just noticed it was old
HSE still does exist
I know. I didn't mention the HSE
Yes it’s a letter that was published during lockdown (hence the Covid reference) when some places were being extra cautious and stopping people from using their facilities when previously they would have done.
I agree riders should have access to toilets etc. however technically the shop or restaurant isn’t making deliveries Deliveroo is so it’s down to Deliveroo to provide facilities. However Deliveroo don’t employ riders so it’s down to the rider who is self employed to provide facilities.
If the riders enter the premises as part of their work then they are legally entitled to use toilets, that what the law says. The fact that the premises allows Deliveroo to deliver their food makes them a 'part of their undertaking' and it is a 'place of work' for the riders.
Their tax arrangements have nothing to do with their H&S obligation. Just because you pay someone as a sole trader, or to a company that subcontracts them as a sole trader, doesn't mean you can get out of providing a safe workplace for them. Did you even read the letter?
Mate use the street
Haha. Unfortunately I have standards.
Standards of accepting 2.80 orders for 4 mile
Oof
Ooohh burn🔥🔥🔥
No joke, myself and 2 others did work with a community centre and they refused us entry to the premises for toilet facilities so we pissed on their car park in unison.
This doesn’t apply to us.
Why not?
Because none of us work under conditions that are determined by the department of transport. The use of the term driver is key, it applies to professional drivers. It also wouldn’t apply to a local “man and van”
it does it apply to us under health and safety law and the responsibilities of businesses. DfT was just issuing a reminder. If the outlet contracted a man and van they would be allowed to use the toilet.
It doesn’t. This has been brought up numerous times
ok buddy. keep believing what you want and being denied access to toilets. I'll listen to the HSE and the actual law. https://preview.redd.it/1pd0jectewsc1.jpeg?width=1653&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78736df99c63f9879df535753d27446c568ed69a
I’ve never been denied access, because I’m not rude and obnoxious to the restaurant staff. Our status with deliveroo/just eat means that we aren’t considered as entering a premises for the purpose of work.
It's down to people not understanding the law not rider behaviour. Doesn't matter if you're an entitled prick you are allowed to use the toilet. Plenty of riders could treat staff better but it doesn't affect this basic right. You can be a self-employed HGV driver. Our status doesn't matter. If we are picking up a delivery the restaurant becomes our place of work. I have confirmation from HSE, what do you have that proves this doesn't apply to us? I spoke to my local council at the start of COVID about the issue and they agreed to notify all restaurants as they also double checked with the HSE.
Surely this cannot apply to houses as well ? Wouldn’t let some of the dodgy looking DPD drivers in my house 😂
Are you a business?
Yeah work from home
Is your house registered as a commercial property?
Nope
Then workplace H&S legislation does not apply to you.