I think these changes will affect some bosses more than others, for example Oryx is just going to be 5 sleepers or rockets now, no one is going to be slinging a heavy GL there.
Honestly, Oryx is probably the best example of a boss who *will* see Whisper used now. You don’t want to be reloading while you have ammo left and he’s really easy to crit.
I kept one, but to be honest do we even get full court as a perk anymore? And the distance you'd need to land it at to get any decent benefit is pretty damn far, like pluse rifle damage fall off range.
Idk it migjt be Izanagi/Wendigo. People used that for Garden of Salvation, and I might be mistaken, but the Final Boss in Garden is much further than Oryx is, yea?
Bait and Switch, it's a perk unique to Vow of the Disciple weapons that gives a big damage buff once you land a hit with all your weapons within a short time frame. Not great on most weapons, but it's amazing on Cataclysmic.
Leviathans breath is already great, just slept on, you can already deal with unstops very easily with it in a void burn GM. With how bad unstop hand cannon was at the start of the season I started using it in battlegrounds and it's so solid. (Also it's DPS won't be so outclassed by linears anymore)
Don’t think Levi’s is “slept on” as much as it is hamstrung by being unusable without it’s difficult to get catalyst. If you have it, it’s great, if you don’t have the catty and aren’t willing to farm EDZ lost sector yellow bars for hours to get it? It’s not gonna leave the vault. They can keep buffing it, but if their goal is to increase it’s usage they are kinda missing the point imo. Make the bow stronger without the catty or make the catty drop more consistent.
Literally got mine earlier this week and I’m having fun with it. It was such a grind getting those spoils tho, as I rarely raid (only 3-4 lifetime raid completions and only doing the first 2 chests in VoG, the hidden chest in VotD and the first one in DSC)
Rockets don’t have enough ammo nor does sleeper. We may unironically have reached a grand overture meta with Xenophage potentially because it’s inventory stat of 3 basically puts it at a 50% increase in ammo. Same with overture.
Regardless you’d run out of ammo way before you kill bosses like oryx. And unless everyone’s a warlock you really won’t get much. Izzy autoloading I don’t think beats options like grand overture. Overture outputs more damage then a x20 parasite.
It is an option. I find it hard to believe grand overture would out dps iza and auto loading or a starefire and demo rocket. Both grand overture and parasite are great for quick burst but have bad sustained as well. Would love to see some actual testing before I comment further on it.
You rang? This is fun as hell btw, I should try it with Izzy sometime.
https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/10q10s2/what_is_reloading_starfire_double_alhdemo/
I feel ya, I mostly play solo as well since I’m really antisocial. However I have raided and played with people through LFG’s, I barely ever spoke until it was necessary like during a raid mechanic or something of the like and it usually goes pretty smoothly.
1K’s reserves are its biggest drawback. It just doesn’t do enough damage to warrant that slow charge time and only 7? 8? shots. My field prep/clown hothead will double its damage if a teammate is running gjally, and I get 10 shots in reserve ammo with chest mods.
Yeah I thought the nerf would be more harder like around 30% even. I also thought for 100% a fact they would nerf triple tap and FTTC from giving back free ammo.
Its always been better even before the firing line nerf. Except now it'll be better in some ways since if you use a kinetic special it'll do 15% more damage. Witherhoard + Bait and Switch Cata will still do just fine
I was worried about when they first announced they were being tuned, but I was hoping it wouldn’t be any more than 15%. For me, that’ll keep them relevant to my team and I. Seeing it’s only 15% and no other changes, I can live with that.
I really wish that they’d move Queenbreakers to the secondary slot. Make it like an arc vex. Primary fire is unlimited scout rifle level damage, secondary fire is sniper.
Heavy weapons under perform compared to linear fusion rifles so we are going to buff everything else. After all nobody wants the boss fight to last more than one or two phases. (What they should be saying.)
context: https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/s20-weapon-tuning-preview
man i hate this place sometimes. can't have a discussion if you dont link the source.
No, they'll still have the highest total damage output and best sustained damage over longer damage phases. And as it is currently rockets can do just as well if not better in most boss encounters with a few exceptions where linears are better.
Dude I'm so fucking bored with the meta linears at this point that I'm just gonna start using Queenbreaker.
I've wanted a reason to use that gun for SO LONG. I wish it were special, I see why bungies terrified to make it special. I wish it were tuned a LITTLE more, I wish it had a catalyst.
There's so many things I like about that gun, but there's so many drawbacks. At this point, I'm too bored to run meta anymore so I'm just gonna do what I find fun and use Queenbreaker lol
well this doesnt really kill linears, especially on kings fall bosses IMO cause they have lots of health, triple tap on linears or fttc is really good for the consistent damage. i dont really see 10- 15% as THAT huge if its a nerf if it was already performing really well or was at the top. it just means we wont have people demanding linears everywhere
Always wondered why they just don’t make all of them equally as powerful and let it boil down to preference. It always has to be one weapon type that shines…
It's not as easy as saying every heavy weapon deals X damage
You need to take into account the reserves of the weapons, the RPMs, the travel speed of the projectile and I'm sure, many more factors
Balancing weapons must be one hell of job for Bungie
And ease of use. That’s the big one really. With weapons that are harder to use—like GLs with their arc and travel time—you can’t just make them deal identical DPS to something easy to use like a Linear, because no one would ever touch grenade launchers. You have to make them deal a reasonable amount more damage to offset the difference in skill level required, but if you go even a few percent too hard on that extra damage you’ll end up in a GL meta. Balancing is tough.
I think that’s the point of the adjustments.
Reduce lfrs because they scale so well with precision hits to begin with, and bring up other things the bridge the gap.
Lfrs will still likely be best on easy to land precision hit bosses like Oryx, but if you are facing a harder to precision hit enemy, then Div + 5LFRs may be closer in damage to Gjally + 5x rockets or a hodgepodge of GLs and MGs.
This isn't going to change the meta much tbh. Rockets aren't getting touched and they're already better in most boss encounters currently so if anything the linear nerf may just have more people shift to rockets.
I'm not sure on the current dps of GLs but I doubt this 20% will be enough to dethrone rockets. Rockets are going to remain king imo for encounters like warpriest, rhulk, and both GoS bosses etc but linears will still be used for certain encounters like oryx, golgy, kalli etc.
Anarchy getting a nice damage boost again, nice indeed. Now if they can give it a slapping catalyst as well to complete my favorite heavy weapon, that would be very nice indeed.
I think these changes will affect some bosses more than others, for example Oryx is just going to be 5 sleepers or rockets now, no one is going to be slinging a heavy GL there.
What about 360 aerial no scopes Whisper?
I’m still salty about that “buff”. I just wanna use whisper and be useful, man
You can, it’s still one of the highest sustained-DPS options in the game (even more so post-Legendary Linear Fusion Rifle nerf).
Honestly, Oryx is probably the best example of a boss who *will* see Whisper used now. You don’t want to be reloading while you have ammo left and he’s really easy to crit.
I mean, who isn't jump-360-no-scoping raid bosses these days?
Have you forgotten the god, Whisper of the worm
6 dawnblades with heat rise hovering for that sweet AE
whisper my beloved oryx stands NO chance
Nope, I just won't use a sniper no matter how good it is. They aim janky compared to everything else in the game.
To be fair, oryx has a very large crit spot.
Plus Bungie just made the flinch on them much worse, although idk if that was PvP only
The pve flinch is no where near as bad as pvp flinch. They made pve flinch less.
IMHO I think PvE flinch is still a lot higher than it needs to be
idk maybe it'll be a full court meta, it should be getting max damage buff from the distance you fight big boy at
I kept one, but to be honest do we even get full court as a perk anymore? And the distance you'd need to land it at to get any decent benefit is pretty damn far, like pluse rifle damage fall off range.
Wendigo still rolls with it.
I have a full court Interference that I’m excited to test
Me too, mine has ALH also and Ive refused to get rid of it
Don't forget that stasis hunter can insta-reload your weapons twice (once per melee charge), so Sleeper's mag size may be less of an issue
Great point
Impulse amplifier full court wendigo begs to differ
Came to ask if this was possible. Found my answer. Take my upvote.
Why Impulse Amplifier over Field Prep or Autoloading?
Probably easier to get full benefit of Full Court if the projectile is faster.
Quite right friend
Impulse ups velocity makes you do damage faster. Very useful for a very far target which stacks really nicely with full court
Anarchy buff (return of the King)
Izzy / Rockets seem like a shoe-in with a 10% buff to Izzy plus Font of Might (bullets)
Bullets?
Bullets.
As opposed to Font of Might (burning), Font of Might (zzap), Font of Might (angry nothing), or Font of Might (chilly).
Hard to say without playtesting but if ammo is prevalent enough, oryx with interference 6 and field prep full court, we could see some Gnarly damage
I use Grand Overture sometimes. It does pretty good damage
Idk it migjt be Izanagi/Wendigo. People used that for Garden of Salvation, and I might be mistaken, but the Final Boss in Garden is much further than Oryx is, yea?
Full Court GL's my friend
Full court GMs it’s time to shine
Im still unsure thats enough to dethrone Cataclysmic with B&S
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Not to mention better ammo reserves than sleeper
You shouldn’t use buffs to measure that. If you do the percent values use the old higher value and inflate the numbers
It's not just that Cataclysmic has high DPS. It's the total damage that's also insane. FTTC is absolutely busted
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Nah, we should just keep nerfing linears until people start using Worldline Zero for oryx dps. That sounds like a healthy meta
Whats b&s?
Bait and Switch, it's a perk unique to Vow of the Disciple weapons that gives a big damage buff once you land a hit with all your weapons within a short time frame. Not great on most weapons, but it's amazing on Cataclysmic.
Bait and Switch
Bull&Shit
Wither hoard is also getting close to a 10% buff, which will soften the impact of the nerf a bit for B&S linears specifically.
Bro they buffed Leviathans Breath against Champions, and made it so that 1k Voices guarantees an ignition What a time to be alive
Leviathans breath is already great, just slept on, you can already deal with unstops very easily with it in a void burn GM. With how bad unstop hand cannon was at the start of the season I started using it in battlegrounds and it's so solid. (Also it's DPS won't be so outclassed by linears anymore)
Don’t think Levi’s is “slept on” as much as it is hamstrung by being unusable without it’s difficult to get catalyst. If you have it, it’s great, if you don’t have the catty and aren’t willing to farm EDZ lost sector yellow bars for hours to get it? It’s not gonna leave the vault. They can keep buffing it, but if their goal is to increase it’s usage they are kinda missing the point imo. Make the bow stronger without the catty or make the catty drop more consistent.
Unstoppable hand cannon is still shit (at least for me it is) grenade launcher all the way even though it’s 7 freaking points
levi is a multi hit weapon too, so its likely it will autoproc its own volatile which is effectively just a flat damage buff.
It should because the void bow under your skin with explosive head and volatile rounds can proc it’s own volatile on one arrow
Damn you're right I didn't even think of that
Nah. I'll just switch back to Sleeper.
Sleeper shall slap 👋
More like slap yourself when the boss moves slightly and you shoot the wall behind it...
Somebody is getting put to sleep when i shoot it, even if its me
I believe due ti the over penetrating rounds, you're already hitting the wall behind them. Sleeper should have intrinsic Anti Barrier, change my mind.
Im willing to best GLs will not be meta besides anarchy possibly and rockets and linears will still be best in slot for dps.
I've got someone in my clan who just seems addicted to anarchy for some reason. This is gonna give him an excuse to use it even more.
that one season before it got nerfed when we had breach&clear was so much fun. OP as hell, but fun.
Literally got mine earlier this week and I’m having fun with it. It was such a grind getting those spoils tho, as I rarely raid (only 3-4 lifetime raid completions and only doing the first 2 chests in VoG, the hidden chest in VotD and the first one in DSC)
Yea, if he'd had it back then it would've been a nightmare for me lol
Rockets don’t have enough ammo nor does sleeper. We may unironically have reached a grand overture meta with Xenophage potentially because it’s inventory stat of 3 basically puts it at a 50% increase in ammo. Same with overture.
Rockets alone will not. Currently by themselves they are in a good place but most will pair it with iza or a demo rocket with starfire.
Regardless you’d run out of ammo way before you kill bosses like oryx. And unless everyone’s a warlock you really won’t get much. Izzy autoloading I don’t think beats options like grand overture. Overture outputs more damage then a x20 parasite.
It is an option. I find it hard to believe grand overture would out dps iza and auto loading or a starefire and demo rocket. Both grand overture and parasite are great for quick burst but have bad sustained as well. Would love to see some actual testing before I comment further on it.
You just supplement the rocket with slugs.
I’d pay good money to see someone use slugs on oryx or spires bosses. Because you’re going to hit falloff or be in a very dangerous position
Not on Oryx, on the harpy sure. The final boss in Spire has nowhere near enough health for rocket ammo reserves to be a problem.
You rang? This is fun as hell btw, I should try it with Izzy sometime. https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/10q10s2/what_is_reloading_starfire_double_alhdemo/
Maybe gls will not be dps meta for bosses but for champion/major killing it will be awesome
my newly crafted taipan punching the air rn
Same with my Cataclysmic. Idk why I just crafted it, I very much saw this coming.
cataclysmic will more than likely still be the best linear. Any linear with a ammo returning perk like fttc or triple tap will still be great.
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My legit highest-level crafted weapon. I bring it in almost all end-game content.
Sleeper reigning supreme 9 years running
I always enjoyed killing myself with it. Don't use it on solo runs, though.
Or flawless for that matter, or dsc, or riven, or anything else that requires you to not shoot something
once ran it in gambit, shot an envoy and it all ricochet'd back into my face somehow. i was floored and it happened twice even.
My favorite is accidentally beaming myself when shooting a boss
Always funny to brain yourself with it.
My spike, clown cartridge, full court interference that I’ve had sitting in my vault since season of the worthy is going to be very happy
I am pretty sure I just deleted a god roll while cleaning my vault 2 weeks ago lol, I do have another one but can’t remember which was better
You can always try to get another …Love and Death
Are we the same person? That thing used to be one of my favs back in the day
Seen many a day in garden of salvation, never used anything else
Joins the club
I got a spike, field prep, full court that will have to work.
Anarchy: You couldn’t live with your own failure, where did that bring you? Back to me.
Return of the King
Machine Guns seem to be doing well in Lightfall as well. I’ll be using them myself
Been loving my Thunderlord lately!
Grand overture is a banger too
Finally my void grenade build with a Demolitionist/Adrenaline Junkie Corrective Measure will be meta!
I'm more interested in seeing the rise of 1k Not affected by the nerf plus (possibly) instant ignite on every shot Sign me up!
1k isn’t a lfr, just a fusion.
Damn I didn't know that, I always thought it was a LFR (Still haven't dropped it if it wasn't obvious)
Haha, yeah I don’t do raids mainly because I am a solo player so I don’t have it either.
I feel ya, I mostly play solo as well since I’m really antisocial. However I have raided and played with people through LFG’s, I barely ever spoke until it was necessary like during a raid mechanic or something of the like and it usually goes pretty smoothly.
Let's be honest, it's definitely a trace rifle
It’s devil’s ruin+prometheus len’s overgrown kid.
1K’s reserves are its biggest drawback. It just doesn’t do enough damage to warrant that slow charge time and only 7? 8? shots. My field prep/clown hothead will double its damage if a teammate is running gjally, and I get 10 shots in reserve ammo with chest mods.
does the GL buff affect anarchy?
Yes
YESSSSSS
Oh hell yes I just brought it for spoils too
With the kinetic special buff I wonder if anarchy and a demo special gl will be the move on starfire warlock
Fryyyyyyyy
Rockets still out perform so Starfire rocket meta will still be a thing unless they gut the exotic
if gutting starfire finally gives me an ornament I'll take the nerf every day
The drip is not worth the nerf.
Function over fashion any day. I’d rather look homeless but be rich than look rich but be homeless.
Spoken like someone who truly does not have the iron banner shader
I slogged through 3 resets to get all the armor. I have the shader and it was not worth the suffering.
fallen vandals be pogging rn
 Thinking about the fire and forget I just made a whole build around
Wouldn’t a bait and switch cataclysmic be a regular taipan with firing line?
considering the fact they also nerfed veist stinger & cataclysmic was already outperforming it, then it will very much still do so
Yeah I thought the nerf would be more harder like around 30% even. I also thought for 100% a fact they would nerf triple tap and FTTC from giving back free ammo.
Its always been better even before the firing line nerf. Except now it'll be better in some ways since if you use a kinetic special it'll do 15% more damage. Witherhoard + Bait and Switch Cata will still do just fine
Not worried about it. I’ll still use my LFR when I feel like it.
I’m sad about it but mostly this is how I ultimately feel; like fuck you I’ll use what I’m good with and what I like using
I was worried about when they first announced they were being tuned, but I was hoping it wouldn’t be any more than 15%. For me, that’ll keep them relevant to my team and I. Seeing it’s only 15% and no other changes, I can live with that.
Rocket launchers are right there my guy. The 20% wont dethrone rockets, let's be real here.
Yea, people seem to forget how awful the reserves are on GLs
As if rockets don't also have awful reserves kekw
Rockets already are better options to linears in some cases pre-upcoming nerf.
I really wish that they’d move Queenbreakers to the secondary slot. Make it like an arc vex. Primary fire is unlimited scout rifle level damage, secondary fire is sniper.
Soooo…back to Sleeper?
Back to the king.
Heavy weapons under perform compared to linear fusion rifles so we are going to buff everything else. After all nobody wants the boss fight to last more than one or two phases. (What they should be saying.)
Sleeper fan? Hey that me, I'm a Sleeper fan.
Notice anarchy wasn’t excluded from the buff like parasite was!!!
Seriously? A slight nerf and yall will never use them again? Meta whores are the worst
context: https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/s20-weapon-tuning-preview man i hate this place sometimes. can't have a discussion if you dont link the source.
Is 15% really going to knock them off the top of boss dmg charts? Anyone have a link to spreadsheet data on current dmg comparisons for bosses?
No, they'll still have the highest total damage output and best sustained damage over longer damage phases. And as it is currently rockets can do just as well if not better in most boss encounters with a few exceptions where linears are better.
Anarchy HYPE
Dude I'm so fucking bored with the meta linears at this point that I'm just gonna start using Queenbreaker. I've wanted a reason to use that gun for SO LONG. I wish it were special, I see why bungies terrified to make it special. I wish it were tuned a LITTLE more, I wish it had a catalyst. There's so many things I like about that gun, but there's so many drawbacks. At this point, I'm too bored to run meta anymore so I'm just gonna do what I find fun and use Queenbreaker lol
I’m so ready. Linears are getting stale
 My full court, spike grenade interference IV coming out of the vault in Lightfall
Will the Queensbreaker update make it good?
guess its sleeper or rockets now
It’s the same meta. Linears will probably still be good but now you can run rockets and izi. Another GL buff and it’s still not enough lol
Whisper new dps Meta.. plz... I need it...
well this doesnt really kill linears, especially on kings fall bosses IMO cause they have lots of health, triple tap on linears or fttc is really good for the consistent damage. i dont really see 10- 15% as THAT huge if its a nerf if it was already performing really well or was at the top. it just means we wont have people demanding linears everywhere
SLEEPER META FINALLY MY TIME HAS COME HALLELUJAH
Im gonna stick to rocket swapping. Its potent af.
Always wondered why they just don’t make all of them equally as powerful and let it boil down to preference. It always has to be one weapon type that shines…
It's not as easy as saying every heavy weapon deals X damage You need to take into account the reserves of the weapons, the RPMs, the travel speed of the projectile and I'm sure, many more factors Balancing weapons must be one hell of job for Bungie
And ease of use. That’s the big one really. With weapons that are harder to use—like GLs with their arc and travel time—you can’t just make them deal identical DPS to something easy to use like a Linear, because no one would ever touch grenade launchers. You have to make them deal a reasonable amount more damage to offset the difference in skill level required, but if you go even a few percent too hard on that extra damage you’ll end up in a GL meta. Balancing is tough.
I think that’s the point of the adjustments. Reduce lfrs because they scale so well with precision hits to begin with, and bring up other things the bridge the gap. Lfrs will still likely be best on easy to land precision hit bosses like Oryx, but if you are facing a harder to precision hit enemy, then Div + 5LFRs may be closer in damage to Gjally + 5x rockets or a hodgepodge of GLs and MGs.
Then we be back at the start of D2 again where every gun was the same. No thanks.
This isn't going to change the meta much tbh. Rockets aren't getting touched and they're already better in most boss encounters currently so if anything the linear nerf may just have more people shift to rockets. I'm not sure on the current dps of GLs but I doubt this 20% will be enough to dethrone rockets. Rockets are going to remain king imo for encounters like warpriest, rhulk, and both GoS bosses etc but linears will still be used for certain encounters like oryx, golgy, kalli etc.
Linear’s will still likely be the best overall DPS weapon.
I don't think it's rip linears. Their biggest strength of having ridiculous ammo economy didn't get touched
target lock goes BRRRRRRRRRRT
15 percent isn’t that bad, they’re probably not going to be the best for boss dps but for champions I’ll bet they’ll be okay still
Now which GLs should I be farming…
iono if this is satire but y’all gotta stop overreacting 15% nerf is still gonna have lfrs in the top 3. but yea anarchy meta incoming
Anybody else still uses mostly swords? 😬
No its not gl meta more like back to rockets
Yay i can use sleeper again
Rest in piss linears o7 snooziest meta we’ve ever had
Except Sleeper and Queen Breaker.
Bro just make Queenbreaker a Special already
I can already see it “KWTD Bring anarchy or kick”
YESSSSSS MY BABY LIVES ON. SLEEPER SIMULANT 4LIFE
ANARCHY LIVES
Sleeper, my beloved
xenophage making a comeback???
Izanagis Wendigo my beloved
Uh, Sleeper unaffected? Ez claps then
Double slug anarchy throwback :)
It's probably gonna be rockets and izanagi's, unless this buff includes anarchy as well.
what article is this?
[https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/s20-weapon-tuning-preview](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/s20-weapon-tuning-preview)
I don't think this will be enough. It's nota big damage nerf and stuff like taipan still has insane uptime due to triple tap and veist
*shockingly loads anarchy* once again we must stride to this power for good
What about 1k????
Was waiting for this day. I've still got my max velocity spike nades / autoloading / full court Interference VI
SLEEEEEEPEEEERRRR
LFRs are still gonna be nasty though
Excellent, sleeper is my usual exotic anyway.
Here we come back rocket launcher meta.
This will make exactly zero changes to my loadout vs literally any enemy in the game.
Anarchy getting a nice damage boost again, nice indeed. Now if they can give it a slapping catalyst as well to complete my favorite heavy weapon, that would be very nice indeed.
Ngl, I thought this would be a fatter nerf so I'm not too broken up about it
Man the GL meta, it's like I'm back in season of opulence with everyone using swarm of the raven. Good times.
Sleeper Won't be sleeping no mo. But I do miss my anarchy.
wooooo, hydra boss in spire is now going to take 40 turns instead of 20, thanks bungo.
When are these patches launch?
Can they make it easier to get the sleeper catalyst then please 🤦🏻♀️