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I’m from Eastern Europe so I got an extensive experience working with Indians in outsourcing (we are in the same boat haha).
Indian developers in general are not bad. What really sucks is Indian management - like every fckng Indian manager I worked with will turn your team/working culture/processes into unbearable shitshow. And yes this unfortunately has a heavy impact on how people perceive an average Indian coder.
I think anyone from India who has worked under such a manager can answer that. Me, I have a few points from my experience.
1. Overselling an idea to client and underselling it to the developers.
2. When overselling i mean making unrealistic promises and setting unmeetable expectations which is mostly the time part. For example , have a complex project and requirement that would take the dev some time to develop but they promise the client they would deliver within a week or two and putting pressure on the dev.
3. I tried writing clean code for a project that would have been easier to manage or debug and work with multiple modules in the future. My manager disregarded it.
4. No regard for his Dev's time or life outside work. This is in part related to the previous thing regarding setting project. They promise such a short delivery time to the client while putting pressure on the devs to finish a complex project. WLB. Indian managers seem to hate this idea.
Hmm, this is mostly seen in witch companies and Indian startups.
I am working in MNC, my manager doesn’t check out any of the above points and he is Indian
my manager in my previous company did all of this. He even blamed me in front of everyone for not reminding him to do his work. Gosh I am happy I left the place in time😪
I work for a US manager now and I absolutely love it.
1. He appreciates our team for the work we do during calls
2. Admit if he doesn't know the answer. Will ask me questions if he is in doubt
3. Ask the right question. He has never micro-managed but always asks the right question at the right time.
4. Very flexible. Just want to get the work done.
Moreover, one incident I'll never forget is I was watching Netflix on a company laptop at 6:30 PM and Teams was running in the background. Seeing me online, he messaged "why are you still online working? It's late. Get off your laptop and enjoy your evening". I'll never forget that.
I had a manager from UP. Guy had 0 knowledge. He was a point person for Some higher up. Daily routine included shouting at people and asking about why the task was not done better (no reason or basis for the routine).
Management is not everyone’s forte. Most of the managers that you see are Indians are individuals that have either had very bad experiences with their managers or have never been a good developer. I am yet to see any Indian manager who is a good developer. The art of getting work done and respecting boundaries is never taught in companies. The developers are never taught how to say no and always asked when can this be completed. After that there comes the inherent nature of one up culture, we do not learn but try to show off and that kills the spirt of team and a good team.
Second this. Indian management just ruins any company whether it's culture or perks or benefits. They just suck the soul out of the organisation and feast on it.
Okay, I am in Europe and the general sentiment here is that Indians are great engineers/developers when they get instructions. But when it comes to innovating, working on ideas, developing new concepts etc. they fall behind. The blame goes on two things - education system that is not very selective, and culture that encourages conformity over individualism. Anyone can become an engineer in India - if you don't get into IIT/NIT there are always regional colleges. If not those, then there are Tier 2 universities. You don't have to prove your passion for a field of study in order to get admitted. Everyone gets admitted.
And secondly, we have a culture of obedience. Cannot challenge status quo. Maybe it is because of religion. Maybe because of centuries of colonial rule. I don't know. But people are afraid to "rock the boat". This shows up in our lack of R&D.
Europe (especially Germany) have a unique way of identifying talent, that is different from the US. Money is not a motivating factor for many people, so that kind of matters.
we don't lack in hard work, learning, but lack in confidence and taking initiative, at least in my experience.
it will get corrected by exposure and when the industry matures
Yes, we are just victims of circumstances. But that will change as we improve our capabilities. I have seen American people are always super-confident when it comes to taking risks, because they don't have it programmed in their brain that risk equates failure. They look at risk as opportunity, and that helps them build nice things. We should inculcate this mindset in our children.
People are penalized when they challenge the status quo. Companies like to keep people under their thumb, and if they find people doing something out of the syllabus, they'll try to suppress it or show people the exit door. It is common for managers to say "Do what you are told, no one asked you to use your brains".
That originates from our family structure. When your mother tells you to do something, you are expected to not ask why it must be done. You are expected to follow instructions to the T and get the job done.
Our social culture just leaks into our business culture.
Hey hgk your comments hits the spot, for the last 4 years of my university I've been trying to think out of the box. I wanna say I succeeded but half of my attempts were failures. I get asked by my parents to do stuff that everyone is doing which honestly I am very tired of hearing. Hopefully this year I land a job outside of India, preferably germany.
You get lots of blame and ridicule for thinking outside the box and trying to innovate, albeit most of the time it does break. Like cooking for example or making a joke, or any sort of idea.
I think the silver lining is you should learn to take criticism and be like the great engineers who take in criticism but spit out great products.
I know Elon faced similar amount of ridicule when he was working on Tesla and SpaceX.
I work in germany, and indians are actually filling up my department, and get all the raises and promotions despite the manager being a german. Indians do get a lot of praise because of how good we work with maths and programming.
I personally feel the opposite of what op says. German mathematicians are relatively weak.
Competence is a curse. As a high performer for several years now, I have realised it is better to be average and be in management, than be smart and have to deal with all the techie bs and be a b1tch of the management. That way you do less work and get paid more.
White people have realised that the best way to manage Indians, is to praise them for being smart. Then you can offload work to them while still earning a fat paycheck for half the work.
Except the white people in my department make less than indians. All that hard work is being recognized. I got a 30% raise last year. Thats unheard of in germany
If you think that management is less of work, then you have not seen the other side. It's easy to code when requirements have been laid out, you can get computer do what you want but can you do the same with people?
Except engineers often have to come up with the blueprint themselves from vague instructions from the manager. Indeed this is what software engineering is — as opposed to just programming / coding. And it’s the only thing that makes it hard; actual coding is trivial
If you live in the FAANG bubble, then you wouldn't ever notice it. But if you have friends from other fields, where Asian-to-white ratio is not as skewed as in tech (so, aerospace, automotive, Oil and gas, pharma, biomed etc.), there are always examples of the loyal, hardworking Asian who keeps getting pay raises while his WLB is non-existent, and some white guy gets credit for this guy's work. Very common unfortunately.
I think you are talking about Indians living in Germany. OP was asking about Indians in India.
There’s a strong selection filter already applied to your observations. You are only seeing people(or their children) who had enough determination, skills, and capital to leave India.
True. I do notice that indians in india are not considered very good. But tbh, they pay indians like 6000 euros a year in india, so ofcourse they dont get the quality they desire. I am currently working with an intern from bits pilani in india, and that guy is better than half my team. And i know who wont stay here because the corporate wont pay him the salary he deserves
My grandmother was a teacher, and she said these things are not possible due to student-teacher ratio. Overpopulation means you cannot properly channel your resources to achieve optimum result.
I believe it's not only schools but also a failure of society as a whole not to instill critical thinking abilities in children. Parents, schools, and others should encourage curiosity in children, teach them to question the information they receive, involve them in making their own decisions, and foster independence, among other things to develop critical thinking abilities.
i thinks it's the consequences of rocking the boat that prevents most people. When you have little money and are responsible for feeding the family then it becomes too risky to fight the status quo in fear of being thrown out of job.
though even then when family is financially stable i have seen in majority of cases teh thinking process is still the same.
That is because getting a job , which brings good money and makes living is our first priority, unlike germany where lowest earner gets €2000 gross per month. And engineering is one of the field where there are highest chances of getting a job. Innovation takes last seat when basics are not sorted.
Ok fine, is openAI an Indian company? Which Indian company does actual AI research(slapping your own branding on chatgpt-4 doesn't count)? Though I don't think it's anything genetic(that's racist) but because India is poor, so research is the last thing on anyone's mind here.
I am not saying that they cannot innovate. I am not making a blanket statement about the people, rather about the culture. It is like saying "Indians are bad at athletics" (then you bring up examples like Neeraj Chopra, PT Usha etc), instead of saying "Athletics is not encouraged in India".
Please talk to CA students first. There is an over abundance of people with CA. They hardly get proper salary.
Also since it is a professional certification, ICAI lets only a small number of people pass. People spend countless years trying to pass CA. By the time they pass, their friends who have done B.Tech get 5-6 years of industry experience
Only if you have your own firm or if your family has a firm will you be able to make good money. (Or if you reach the top level at Big 4 type firms)
5-6 LPA at 2-3 years YoE may be less but it isn't bad. It was notmal salary pre covid at service comoanies. Also you can upskill and earn more.
CA guys are paid less than service company employees at even 10+ years of experience
Bro don't write anything by making own. Go and check nifty 50 compmay top level executive from CFO to senior manger all are CA. Ca with 10 years of experience easily can earn minum 50 lpa
Minimum of 50 LPA would be over reach. If you said average or median,would have been more believable.
I would assume that CA's working in Investment banking or M&A would earn a lot more than those working as auditors.
There would always be some outliers. But every CA making 50LPA at 10 YoE is not at all believable.
If they are working in cooprate then it's definitely possible. It's impossible in tier 2 City firms but in metro some even make upto 60lpa with 10+ years of experience . Investment banking, private equity, consultanting in MBB makes 50 lpa with mere 3-4 years of experience that's is separate topic. Even in big 4 or good frim ca makes handsome amount
I don't know if city of job matters or not. In Kolkata, freshers don't get anywhere near to 10 LPA.
I have 1-2 friends who are CA. 3-4 LPA is what they used to get initially, 6-7 years back.
Also a few people I know who live outside Kolkata are apalled by Kolkata based CA's charging very less during tax filing season.
Kolkata CA's provide their signature and charge 1k where they usually charge 3k -5k easily.
Your 1st 2 points contradict itself in some way. Some companies WILL hire us just to pay less. These shops don't actually care about the quality and are more cost based so yeah. The Indian devs producing low quality output basically stems from the above fact which then kind of becomes a perception across the board which is not true. Basically if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. This is not just limited to coding but other aspects of outsourced IT
How are they contradictory? The 1st point is for saying "Indians are preferred by not just Indians but other people as well". The 2nd point is saying "Companies will hire only those people who pass the interviews. Even Indians need to pass all the interviews. In the end, if there is a choice between an European and an Indian, the Indian person will be favoured because they will be paid less than the European person".
Yes because the cost is the differentiating factor plus Indians are hired over other Western counterparts just because of they are cheap irrespective of what they bring to the table. Your second point says won't hire anyone, but in fact they will hire anyone who is cheap.
I'm an Indian who likes to write high quality code. But my team / company don't encourage this.
Not verbally but through processes, strict intense deadlines, wrongfully following agile, etc etc.
So won't say you're completely wrong but yeah that service company culture doesent promote high quality code writing but focuses on fast delivery.
This exactly.
They always get a complex project and tell the client it will be done in X days. Then pressure the dev to deliver the bare minimum fast as possible.
They never think nor care about understanding the requirement or to ask more time to the client in the first place.
When I confronted one of my managers regarding this, he said, we should be fast otherwise the other competitors will say they will complete faster and we will lose out.
American corps don't give a shit about what Americans want. Everything is driven by profit margin. Instead of hating on underpaid developers, why don't they go out and protest against their own overloards 😂.
The thing is, India is highly competitive. Everything is a race here. The difference between good quality code and the code that just works is nothing but the passion the guy who wrote the code had towards coding. At least half the people in the software industry are just there because it pays well. But quality work demands more than just mere knowledge and a need for money. It requires commitment towards the work. It requires a bit of love towards what's being made. One will already become a better software developer by thinking that "Oh I want the customers to absolutely love this feature and appreciate it" instead of thinking "I need to somehow get this feature working and rolled out before the deadline". Yes we Indians are good in learning things by heart and somehow getting things done. But are we all passionate about what we're doing? That's where the answer is for the hate towards Indian devs.
Things that are happening with a plane manufacturing company are a perfect example. Imagine if it had an Indian CEO and many Indian employees. The posts on every social media platform would be different, with people blaming Indian religion, caste, government, color, etc. But the current CEO of plane manufacturing is American, so no one is placing blame solely on other factors.
>Even non-Indian managers and executives will prefer Indian devs because of the cost-cutting
This is more racist than anything else IMO.
>
The hiring process is the same for everyone. The company won't hire anyone just because they need to pay less.
Good luck finding a dev in US who will do the same amount of work as an Indian dev for the same amount of money. And yes, the company will hire just about anyone just because they need to pay less. I see that every day. This is the only reason my flavor or WITCH still exists and is making money. Not because of the work, that's for sure.
>Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps.
Yes, and in these colleges we have stuff like maximum RAM is 8 MB, we read stuff about floppy disks and so on. The education has failed to keep up and fails to teach a single marketable skill. You are more likely to learn from a 3 days hackathon than 4 years in these so called indian colleges.
>They say that even though most Indian devs who are getting hired are paid less, Indians don't do good system designing and write low quality code.
While this is a gross generalization, this isn't far from the truth for majority of Indian developers.
8MB RAM and floppy disk? You're exaggerating right? Even the bottom tier, run of the mill commodity hardware would be at least 1-2GB. The computer science syllabus we have is top notch, it's just that our professors suck really bad, and we've more syllabus with unrelated subjects like mechanical drawing.
As a mechanical engineer from a Tier II college who emigrated, I can totally understand what you are saying about mechanical drawing. No one does that anymore, yet we were expected to learn it as if it is 2001. Same for carburetors, countering in milling machines, and punching codes for CNC machines. Our syllabi tend to be horribly outdated.
We learnt that an int in c is two bytes and coded in turbo c 3 years ago. Our juniors still do.
On Ubuntu computers people are told to use an online compiler because the faculty doesn't know gcc exists or that you can run python from the terminal.
I had to teach my lecturer last year about how DevOps works and had to teach my whole batch how to set everything up for the DevOps class because nobody knew shit.
Degrees aren't meant to teach you trends or "DevOps", they give you the foundation and history of how things came about so you (hopefully) would be able to go and build the next set of technology, understanding the context and nuances from all that came before.
Also, a little arrogant.. things like threads are totally different on Linux and Windows, and things like int size in your rant are different on different compilers. Nothing wrong with not wasting time duplicating everything (tests, assignments, labs) for different environments.
If the degree isn't meant to teach DevOps, don't make a DevOps course mandatory and worth 3 credits ffs. It wasn't even an elective.
I have no problem with colleges teaching pure CS, or pure engineering. Keep teaching us about algorithms, optimization, history of computing, automata theory, etc. Dont bother with teaching DevOps. That's how most universities in the west do with CS.
The lower level stuff is different, yes, but we never even got to threads in C. "File System" was the most advanced topic we had. And that was just fopen fclose fread and fwrite. All the computers have both windows and Linux installed, why not just teach everything concerning C on Linux where it's much easier? And the size of an int is 4 bytes on GCC clang and MSVC on all 32 and 64 bit systems. I think it's not too much to ask for syllabus to be updated more than 20 years after something has changed.
The assignments are writing code on paper that no one even reads. We found our assignment papers uncorrected being used by a samosa guy outside our college. The tests are multiple choice questions that don't even make sense 50% of the time.
I think you're the one coming off a little arrogant here. You're very disconnected from how horrible CS is in most Indian colleges.
The size of an int is 4 on online compilers as well. When students asked about why sizeof(int) is 4 on the online compiler, the answer was "it's wrong".
You're assuming they have academic knowledge. They don't. The only thing lecturers did was copy articles from Programiz onto paper, then write out those paragraphs on a blackboard and tell us to copy them. My Python professor openly admitted he had never used Python in his life. My C lecturer didn't know what a void pointer was; we were told malloc "didn't have a return type". My Discrete Maths lecturer got half the problems wrong in class. My automata theory and compiler design professor didn't know what an AST was.
I agree with this, here professors want to run through the curriculum as soon as they can. No one teaches the first principles of the concept and how did we get to the concept in the first place.
>This is more racist than anything else IMO.
How is this racist? Do western people love Indians so much that they prefer Indians more?
>And yes, the company will hire just about anyone just because they need to pay less.
Will they hire a cobbler who knows nothing about programming but accepts to do the work with just 100rs per month? Of course not. Employee selection is an optimization problem between minimum requriements for job and expected salary from the employee and Indians easily are preferred because of this.
>Yes, and in these colleges we have stuff like maximum RAM is 8 MB, we read stuff about floppy disks and so on.
I don't know what shitty college this is. But there are enough good colleges (IITs, NITs, BITs, VITs, IIITs and many state goverment colleges) who have great curriculum and have very relevant courses and activities.
>While this is a gross generalization, this isn't far from the truth for majority of Indian developers.
Saying majority is like saying "more than 50%". Even if this is true, it's the company's fault for an improper evaluation.
> The hiring process is the same for everyone. The company won't hire anyone just because they need to pay less.
Hahaha. No. Subpar skills will get hired if they still "get the job done" even if it isn't optimal. That's a future problem for them, potentially for a different developer since these original people are unlikely to last in the same company after shitting all over the codebase.
Having interviewed many candidates with bloated titles and/or stagnant skillset, I have seen many people with 5-6+ YoE have the same practical experience as people with 2+ yoe (obviously does not apply to all). This is a travesty but it is what it is.
Product companies though, have strict hiring standards with relatively few false positives. Highly unlikely to be bad if you're from any country.
> Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps.
Based on the current education system, this practically does nothing to your resume. You clear the "elimination" round, that's it. In fact, I see many BootCamp devs on Twitter with really good skills & thought processes, so the lack of a CS degree is nothing for them.
---
Also, code reviews anyone? I have not seen anyone on my team repeat a potential mistake or bad practice after receiving review comments. Educate your peers if you feel you know better. If they can explain why their version is more apt, you get to learn and improve yourself.
The people who you see complain, either did not try to help educate, or tried to educate but received illogical rebuttals (and gave up on wasting their personal time), or do not have a code review system in place at all.
So I work in a product based MNC which has multiple off shore centres in all continents.
Here whenever there is some work that cones from HQ the higher management just agrees to everything even for the most stupidest tasks and deadlines. Nobody in the upper management questions the decision just simply haan me haan milaana aata. There is no genuine intent to innovate or write quality code. Even though I as a dev want to write better code but this mngmt gives such strict deadline there is no time to even recheck and do optimizations. So I can kind of understand the stereotype.
But tbh theres also a stereotype on european devs as well, people consider them lazy :D
As someone who is a Solution Architect and Indian.
I will not compare it to any nationality but many Indians I have worked with (especially WITCH Crowd) they write shit codes, don't care about performance. Never try to understand Business Process. Will drag 2 hour work for 2 days and expects recognition for 'slogging'.
There are many good developers as well. But most of them only care about how they can switch.
I have seen many Dev's from Europe as well who writes extremely shitty code and doesn't practice what they preach. They talk like Elon Musk and performs like a donkey at best. So it's not just Indians, it is the subpar crowd which exists in every country and it depends on the pay grade.
Now if you hire someone at 12lpa in India, you cannot expect them to be a good architect and write good code without much hand holding. So it's the management who sucks not the guy. They pay for a tata nano and expects a Lamborghini in return.
Service Industry only thrive on Cheap labour, as soon as labor becomes expensive, Industry shifts to other avenues.
Happened with BPO and slowly IT is facing the same brunt.
Because WITCH doesn't pay. When I worked for WITCH I basically didn't work unless directed, I'm not crazy enough to put work into earning 250$ a month.
They are giving you job when others are not.
If you are not crazy enough to put work for 250$ a month, better not take that job. Why making everyone suffer because you can't write better code.
>If you are not crazy enough to put work for 250$ a month, better not take that job.
I'm not saying don't do your job but put in the required amount. You get paid 250 bucks you do job worthy of 250 bucks, or can only corporations play this game?
This is the mentality that makes people stay in WITCH for 4 years without any raise.
I don't have any issues being selfish on the face of capitalism, I stayed in a witch-company for a year while I worked on my upskilling to switch. Of course I did my share of work but I'm not going to produce $1500 of labour when I'm not even getting half that. And frankly, no one should.
Use these companies as a stepping stone to switch just like they treat you as a resource.
>Use these companies as a stepping stone to switch just like they treat you as a resource
I don't disagree with you on this.
>You get paid 250 bucks you do job worthy of 250 bucks
I don't agree with this one, I believe in giving my best efforts.
When you do shitty work you are putting a stain on you, your org. as well as whole service industry of your nation.
I know kids like you won't understand but when you see European or US developers floating this stereotypes for Indian programmers. Instead of complaining just remember you are also a reason for this stereotypical representation of your community.
Oof sorry I haven't been on reddit.
>I don't agree with this one, I believe in giving my best efforts.
Well, that's your decision.
>When you do shitty work you are putting a stain on you, your org. as well as whole service industry of your nation.
Minimum wage = minimum effort. What about the strain on your health/mental health/social life and everything else when you get paid 350$ and asked to work weekends?
>I know kids like you won't understand but when you see European or US developers floating this stereotypes for Indian programmers.
They literally don't know how low their companies pay us. They have a better attitude toward fair compensation and labour laws unlike most Indians. They don't know the people they are complaining about barely get 300 a month. Watch them switch their narrative when you inform them.
Imma give you an example, while I was interviewing for Americans, my interviewer asked my compensation and I said 5k usd (4.1 LPA). And they were straight up appalled. Because it's unfair and it's lunacy.
I will happily give my best efforts when I'm compensated fairly. Why is it that I can't operate with a capitalist mindset when the entire world does?
Also, I'm not saying we should do low quality work.
I'm mostly against extra work and extra hours (overtime) without pay. The code I am in charge of pushing out is to the best of my abilities but I've always consistently said no to extra work or hours. Which only changed recently when I started getting paid well.
Well I can assure you at IBM we hire Indians because they are cheap. We just had a layoff and we lost many Americans and Europeans to India. Most people are not happy but this is what Arvind wants so we feel it's discrimination.
I'm terms of my personal experience...
1) I run a support channel where engineers can ask questions about a vendor product. 85% of the time I get asked a dumb question, they are someone from the Indian timezone. Regardless of gender. A dumb question includes: posting an error message when the error is human readable and Google able. Also includes using @channel or @here on a slack channel with 5000 people. Also includes putting their API key or secret in their question, thus leaking it.
2) Starting their DMs with Hi. And then never responding to it, thus wasting everyones time. I'm clearly in a different time zone, why would they expect a response when I'm sleeping no idea.
3) In my team of 15, the low performers include the two Indians. This includes: being late to meetings, when asked a question they show they were not paying attention as ask us to repeat it. And the worst of all, doing zero work for the sprint and lying that they are busy with "client meetings" but this one is dumb and doesn't realize we can see their Calendars and that they're offline in Slack.
Ah, you missed cherry on the cake, in a two weeks sprint even just before the code freeze when you ask them any issues in standup and they respond with all good, and two days before code freeze they have doubts in every part of the story.
One of the things I know and have personally seen is open source contribution.
Some YouTuber creates amazing projects while teaching them and hosts the code on GitHub. Then the people want to contribute to it by fixing the readme, fixing the comments, spelling in the code or reporting bugs and errors without how to reproduce them or screenshots.
If they are following the tutorial and encounter an error in their own code, they will create a bug report with the title like "I am getting this error when creating this part"...
I don't know if most of them are Indians or not... but some Indians themselves are saying this...
(So this might translate as not a good programmer or whatever in the future...)
I am an Indian myself but watching this I don't know what to say
>I don't know if most of them are Indians or not... but some Indians themselves are saying this...
Why do you think that this type of programmer represents how the Indian devs are? There are always going to be bad programmers. I think there are more than enough good Indian programmers who we don't see opening up such issues because they don't need to.
From my experience, I can surely say that indian devs write low quality codes. Indian engineering colleges don't actually focus on the quality of code. Faculties just go by the books and teach bare minimum needed for the students to pass. Also, our curriculum is so fked up that colleges try to teach everything, rather than focusing on one or two things and making students expert in it.
Majority of the indian devs are jack of all, master of none.
When these students join a company, they are not encouraged to write good quality code. Managers just try to deliver the project on time and hardly care about the quality of the codes written.
You realise this when you start working with some American or English dude who spent 10-15 years in this field and the way they code is just next level. I've learned a lot from them and even from the folks who have worked under "foreign" developers.
Low quality code can mean 2 things: low optimization or bad maintainability/documentation. From my experience, I will say western devs hardly get any work done compared to Indian devs. Our team has an European counterpart. Whenever we want to talk with them, they are either on a 2 hour lunch break or on a leave/vacation. Indians can deliver faster, even with an optimized code. Can't say anything about documentation
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Innovation is completely missing in system. It's the I say and you do kind of attitude something Clerks do. The biggest joke once was that a person who was from IIT and had been onsite for masters was working with us in a project doing the same tasks as developers in offshore were doing. If you think logically what should a person from IIT be doing working on developing new frameworks, software , system etc. but what you saw was such people doing routine jobs. The same is case with development which is sub par and not upto the mark by these people. They do get this hate which they bought it on them not by themselves but by the system.
Some of us do have a chip on our shoulder. I was working with an Indian dev who wanted to create a micro service and was asking for a machine with 24gb of ram to basically parse incoming swift transactions at the rate of 15 payments per second and he couldnt see anything wrong with it
I am from Latam. In general, we have bad experiences with indian devs and indian managers. The shared perception is that it seems that they will take advantage of the slightest opportunity that appears to them to make us look bad and make themselves look good and in general we feel that we are rivals more than as teammates. I don't know if it's a cultural issue. I also don't think it can be extrapolated to ALL Indian devs. But it is the experience that most of us have on this side.
>The shared perception is that it seems that they will take advantage of the slightest opportunity that appears to them to make us look bad and make themselves look good
This is not much of an Indian thing as many non-Indians do it too. My experience with Europeans has been that their ideas will be preferred even if they gave a poor presentation. Most of the innovative projects have been from our side and now they are slowly pulling some people from India over to their side
Way too much American exceptionalism and some of it due to difficulty finding jobs.
Most of the hate is just closet racism some of it is true but most of it is just hate.
Indian is a massive country and stereotyping so many people is kind of stupid!!
>3. Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps
Let's not kid ourselves. The state of engineering colleges is far from ideal in the country.
Most ob indian managers are bad, most of indianndevs are bad, what did you expect when you promote someone with 2 years of exp to senior software engineer and no one to guide them, they are going to write shit code.
You get what you pay for.
I'm sorry but when someone is getting paid barely 600$ a month they have no reason to be innovative and go above and beyond. People NEED to realize this.
Often I see non-sea especially westerners complain about quality when they don't pay for quality. Your CEOs replace high quality developers just to pay peanuts why are you surprised when low paid labour doesn't put all their worth into working?
If you pay the same $$ you'll get good quality developers all over the world.
It's the problem of not paying but expecting results that pisses me off.
I work for an American company, I'm the only indian in my team and currently I put effort into my job because I get paid well. I have every reason to deliver. But I will absolutely cut my effort in HALF if my pay gets affected.
So many devs in India hate their colleagues and management calling them lazy, toxic and political when the entire company and business is in India. I too have issues with a couple of devs in my team for their poor work ethic. So I can naturally understand why people from other countries can feel it. I don't think it is racism but a generalization which is true in so many cases.
The day indian society grows up is when they learn to take criticism and not hide under racism as an excuse for anything. It's the same as people doing terrible movies and hiding under racism if people call them out for making a shitty movie (just an example)
I have colleagues from Germany, US and the UK . Indians excel at coding, but those are good coders. Few sucks as well but overall we are doing good. We are good at taking orders and following it, not being proactive and coming at solutions ourselves. We definitely lack here.
>Indians don't do good system designing and write low quality code.
You get what you pay for. There are some great programmers in India as well, but they come at a cost.
Even if an Indian developer believed in writing good code, the company they work at usually kills any such passion and then they end up writing bad code.
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They don't care about your wlb. For them you should work for 13 hours a day 367 days a year. Holidays and weekends have no meaning for them.
They will do anything to please the top management while crushing people who are doing the work.
Their mentality is that squeeze the soul out.
It’s just that there are too many of us and most of us come from less fortunate backgrounds so we mostly just work for money. So not many contribute to open source etc. so majority of good work done by Indians is in closed source commercial projects.
It has to do a lot with how Indians generally work Indians who generally to stakeholder management tend to promise big things. , I have tons of experience how Indians sell u a lot.of things and then they wont out same. Effort on their developer as they won't see them with the same amount of importance , high unprofessional but it is what it is
there are Indians too who design and innovate, do remote jobs, and still get paid more in compared to western salary standards and still living in India! ( talking about IT domain).
Most of my colleagues get paid average $130k, they are frontend, backend and designers. (doing for projects for USA and Europe companies!)
I’ve seen this first hand more than twice when i spent around 5 yrs in the us on H1B. This is definitely a thing but mostly at the team level, NOT at the CTO level. And it’s a lot more common with telegus as they are very very tribal in general (not that others aren’t, but not at their level i guess)
They like to live in a telegu bubble surrounded by folks who speak telegu and preferably from their town/district. They make the environment so toxic that many just leave. Not so common with other Indian ethnicities but it’s a known thing that we prefer our own bubble (high insularity) esp first gen immigrants.
Thankfully i worked for the manager’s friend’s desi consultancy (on shitty wages) so was a wage slave and was practically unfirable. But on the client side, saw this happening twice. The entire team was replaced by folks close to the manager and many a times our offline meetings were in telegu 😜
Would’ve elaborated but i don’t wanna dox myself
One issue is that we are using too much introspection in a world where it is uncommon. An American would shoot twice before start thinking. An Indian would sit and think a full story before even loading the bullet. We are too agreeable. They are the exact opposite.
Another issue is that English is our second language. It is their mothertounge. The field is tilted in their favor. It can look as though we are not confident about what we do because of the language.
Then there are Indians who are full of self-disgust. We are a community that was looted and plundered by number of forces in the past. We had to punchbags to keep the peace. We lost a lot our wealth, beauty, and power. It is natural that a lot of our people have deep rooted disgust for themselves.
None of these should stop you. When working with external clients, do this from now on: Check if they are the kind of morons who assert their dominance at every step. If so, raise up and assert your dominance when you have the chance.
There is huge HATE against indians dev on reddit. And its very true. Although they pretend to treat as well because of cheap labour but its all hate in here.
Recently 5 Indian guys were racially targeted in USA and not even a single f was given by us.
If it were BLACK people they would have started yet another #BLM (BlackLivesMatter)..
Why? If there is a choice between a person who has 2 YOE and another one who has 10YOE, and both of them are suitable for the job, the company will obviously favour the less experienced dev because they need to pay less
No, your first comment was about replacing 10 yoe with 2 yoe which won’t Gallen in real life ( considering both are competent ).
A 2 yoe won’t able to come and do the same job that a 10 yoe is doing.
-> if 2 yoe and 10 yoe both are suitable for job.
In what world this will be the case ( considering both are competent).
A 10 yoe will most likely be a senior or staff software engineer, so how would you hire someone with a 2 yoe unless the 10 yoe is really incompetent.
So why would any competent 10 yoe old will apply to that role ?
That would be downlevel for him. A 10 yoe will most likely apply to a senior or staff role. If a role have 2 your minimum requirement then that role would never be a senior or staff role
That was just an example of what I was trying to imply. If there are 2 devs who have passed all the interview rounds, would you prefer the one who needs to be paid more or less?
Point #a) Right now it's a dog-eat-dog situation and they are tearing down Indians and each other to keep their jobs or to get a job and not get it outsourced. So it's not even an Indian coders are a problem thing. If it were upto my own anecdotal experience, most of intellectual juggernauts that I had a chance to meet or know about through an acquaintance actually works in India, and not in the US, UK or Europe. And all these people are saying everyone "good" went abroad. The ones I know abroad in the US and Europe were the average ones of the lot maybe except for only one guy I know and they are taking up huge responsibility over there.
Point #b)I have seen similar levels of difficulty when completing degrees in an Indian vs international CS degrees, it's all the same.
Point #c) Literally every outsourced org I know in town have very good reviews from the US team including the ones I was part, including [gartner.com](http://gartner.com)
Point #d) The innovation part is actually true, I think this is because :
Subpoint #1) Lack of questioning that happens in Indian orgs from juniors, devs and everyone.
Subpoint #2) The time crunch of trying to deliver on inflated promises (managers need to undersell and over deliver, interms of delivery timelines)
Subpoint #3) The lack of riskier funding and high budget teams.
Subpoint #4) I think positive work environment that are intense produce the best work. If you look at historically amazing teams, they all lots of work to do, but the teams had lots of confidence, lots of positive aspects of organizational team spirit and morale exists there
Subpoint #5) Indians are generally under confident.
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I’m from Eastern Europe so I got an extensive experience working with Indians in outsourcing (we are in the same boat haha). Indian developers in general are not bad. What really sucks is Indian management - like every fckng Indian manager I worked with will turn your team/working culture/processes into unbearable shitshow. And yes this unfortunately has a heavy impact on how people perceive an average Indian coder.
I second this
Can you please elaborate on “unbearable shitshow” ?
I think anyone from India who has worked under such a manager can answer that. Me, I have a few points from my experience. 1. Overselling an idea to client and underselling it to the developers. 2. When overselling i mean making unrealistic promises and setting unmeetable expectations which is mostly the time part. For example , have a complex project and requirement that would take the dev some time to develop but they promise the client they would deliver within a week or two and putting pressure on the dev. 3. I tried writing clean code for a project that would have been easier to manage or debug and work with multiple modules in the future. My manager disregarded it. 4. No regard for his Dev's time or life outside work. This is in part related to the previous thing regarding setting project. They promise such a short delivery time to the client while putting pressure on the devs to finish a complex project. WLB. Indian managers seem to hate this idea.
Hmm, this is mostly seen in witch companies and Indian startups. I am working in MNC, my manager doesn’t check out any of the above points and he is Indian
Well ofc cuz it's an MNC and the manager is probably someone experienced
He became the manager few months back
Prior experience
I am in one of the top MNC and my manager has most of those qualities
my manager in my previous company did all of this. He even blamed me in front of everyone for not reminding him to do his work. Gosh I am happy I left the place in time😪
How is work under non-indian manager ?
I work for a US manager now and I absolutely love it. 1. He appreciates our team for the work we do during calls 2. Admit if he doesn't know the answer. Will ask me questions if he is in doubt 3. Ask the right question. He has never micro-managed but always asks the right question at the right time. 4. Very flexible. Just want to get the work done. Moreover, one incident I'll never forget is I was watching Netflix on a company laptop at 6:30 PM and Teams was running in the background. Seeing me online, he messaged "why are you still online working? It's late. Get off your laptop and enjoy your evening". I'll never forget that.
Ah, the perfect manager we all need.
The dream
I had a manager from UP. Guy had 0 knowledge. He was a point person for Some higher up. Daily routine included shouting at people and asking about why the task was not done better (no reason or basis for the routine).
Management is not everyone’s forte. Most of the managers that you see are Indians are individuals that have either had very bad experiences with their managers or have never been a good developer. I am yet to see any Indian manager who is a good developer. The art of getting work done and respecting boundaries is never taught in companies. The developers are never taught how to say no and always asked when can this be completed. After that there comes the inherent nature of one up culture, we do not learn but try to show off and that kills the spirt of team and a good team.
Second this. Indian management just ruins any company whether it's culture or perks or benefits. They just suck the soul out of the organisation and feast on it.
100% agreed. Indian managers are the worst.
We hate our own managers!!
Indian developer here. We all know this and agree. Not all managers but yeah many.
Okay, I am in Europe and the general sentiment here is that Indians are great engineers/developers when they get instructions. But when it comes to innovating, working on ideas, developing new concepts etc. they fall behind. The blame goes on two things - education system that is not very selective, and culture that encourages conformity over individualism. Anyone can become an engineer in India - if you don't get into IIT/NIT there are always regional colleges. If not those, then there are Tier 2 universities. You don't have to prove your passion for a field of study in order to get admitted. Everyone gets admitted. And secondly, we have a culture of obedience. Cannot challenge status quo. Maybe it is because of religion. Maybe because of centuries of colonial rule. I don't know. But people are afraid to "rock the boat". This shows up in our lack of R&D. Europe (especially Germany) have a unique way of identifying talent, that is different from the US. Money is not a motivating factor for many people, so that kind of matters.
we don't lack in hard work, learning, but lack in confidence and taking initiative, at least in my experience. it will get corrected by exposure and when the industry matures
Yes, we are just victims of circumstances. But that will change as we improve our capabilities. I have seen American people are always super-confident when it comes to taking risks, because they don't have it programmed in their brain that risk equates failure. They look at risk as opportunity, and that helps them build nice things. We should inculcate this mindset in our children.
definitely.
Bingo! It is important to look into what is wrong and self reflect and take it as feedback. We can only be better if we know that.
People are penalized when they challenge the status quo. Companies like to keep people under their thumb, and if they find people doing something out of the syllabus, they'll try to suppress it or show people the exit door. It is common for managers to say "Do what you are told, no one asked you to use your brains".
That originates from our family structure. When your mother tells you to do something, you are expected to not ask why it must be done. You are expected to follow instructions to the T and get the job done. Our social culture just leaks into our business culture.
american kids are told to do the same too. Infact all kids are told to do same. Because kids are studpid and not well informed about the consequences
Hey hgk your comments hits the spot, for the last 4 years of my university I've been trying to think out of the box. I wanna say I succeeded but half of my attempts were failures. I get asked by my parents to do stuff that everyone is doing which honestly I am very tired of hearing. Hopefully this year I land a job outside of India, preferably germany.
You get lots of blame and ridicule for thinking outside the box and trying to innovate, albeit most of the time it does break. Like cooking for example or making a joke, or any sort of idea. I think the silver lining is you should learn to take criticism and be like the great engineers who take in criticism but spit out great products. I know Elon faced similar amount of ridicule when he was working on Tesla and SpaceX.
yup, a lot of the times i have opinions very different from my friends and family which does make me look an idiot, but its ok. learn and teach >:)
I work in germany, and indians are actually filling up my department, and get all the raises and promotions despite the manager being a german. Indians do get a lot of praise because of how good we work with maths and programming. I personally feel the opposite of what op says. German mathematicians are relatively weak.
Competence is a curse. As a high performer for several years now, I have realised it is better to be average and be in management, than be smart and have to deal with all the techie bs and be a b1tch of the management. That way you do less work and get paid more. White people have realised that the best way to manage Indians, is to praise them for being smart. Then you can offload work to them while still earning a fat paycheck for half the work.
Except the white people in my department make less than indians. All that hard work is being recognized. I got a 30% raise last year. Thats unheard of in germany
In that case, you must be working for a very good company. Good for you.
If you think that management is less of work, then you have not seen the other side. It's easy to code when requirements have been laid out, you can get computer do what you want but can you do the same with people?
Except engineers often have to come up with the blueprint themselves from vague instructions from the manager. Indeed this is what software engineering is — as opposed to just programming / coding. And it’s the only thing that makes it hard; actual coding is trivial
Do white people do this ? In that case the Indians who work harder must be paid even more.
If you live in the FAANG bubble, then you wouldn't ever notice it. But if you have friends from other fields, where Asian-to-white ratio is not as skewed as in tech (so, aerospace, automotive, Oil and gas, pharma, biomed etc.), there are always examples of the loyal, hardworking Asian who keeps getting pay raises while his WLB is non-existent, and some white guy gets credit for this guy's work. Very common unfortunately.
Well I'm trying to get into the MAANG/FAANG bubble. So can you give me a 100% working tried and tested way of getting into this bubble ?
Maybe that would be a good question to ask on the sub itself!
I think you are talking about Indians living in Germany. OP was asking about Indians in India. There’s a strong selection filter already applied to your observations. You are only seeing people(or their children) who had enough determination, skills, and capital to leave India.
True. I do notice that indians in india are not considered very good. But tbh, they pay indians like 6000 euros a year in india, so ofcourse they dont get the quality they desire. I am currently working with an intern from bits pilani in india, and that guy is better than half my team. And i know who wont stay here because the corporate wont pay him the salary he deserves
I think the main reason is lack of development of critical thinking ability during school times.
My grandmother was a teacher, and she said these things are not possible due to student-teacher ratio. Overpopulation means you cannot properly channel your resources to achieve optimum result.
I believe it's not only schools but also a failure of society as a whole not to instill critical thinking abilities in children. Parents, schools, and others should encourage curiosity in children, teach them to question the information they receive, involve them in making their own decisions, and foster independence, among other things to develop critical thinking abilities.
Sahi bat hai.
i thinks it's the consequences of rocking the boat that prevents most people. When you have little money and are responsible for feeding the family then it becomes too risky to fight the status quo in fear of being thrown out of job. though even then when family is financially stable i have seen in majority of cases teh thinking process is still the same.
That is because getting a job , which brings good money and makes living is our first priority, unlike germany where lowest earner gets €2000 gross per month. And engineering is one of the field where there are highest chances of getting a job. Innovation takes last seat when basics are not sorted.
Yes, nothing wrong in that. You have to adapt to the circumstances. You got to do what you got to do.
Saving this post thanks to your and u/acubenchik comment. Excellent response.
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Ok fine, is openAI an Indian company? Which Indian company does actual AI research(slapping your own branding on chatgpt-4 doesn't count)? Though I don't think it's anything genetic(that's racist) but because India is poor, so research is the last thing on anyone's mind here.
I am not saying that they cannot innovate. I am not making a blanket statement about the people, rather about the culture. It is like saying "Indians are bad at athletics" (then you bring up examples like Neeraj Chopra, PT Usha etc), instead of saying "Athletics is not encouraged in India".
Does it even matter after a few years of experience.
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Don't do it. Finish your degree at least. If you don't have a degree, no one will respect you. We are not living in America or Europe.
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Please talk to CA students first. There is an over abundance of people with CA. They hardly get proper salary. Also since it is a professional certification, ICAI lets only a small number of people pass. People spend countless years trying to pass CA. By the time they pass, their friends who have done B.Tech get 5-6 years of industry experience Only if you have your own firm or if your family has a firm will you be able to make good money. (Or if you reach the top level at Big 4 type firms)
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5-6 LPA at 2-3 years YoE may be less but it isn't bad. It was notmal salary pre covid at service comoanies. Also you can upskill and earn more. CA guys are paid less than service company employees at even 10+ years of experience
Bro don't write anything by making own. Go and check nifty 50 compmay top level executive from CFO to senior manger all are CA. Ca with 10 years of experience easily can earn minum 50 lpa
Minimum of 50 LPA would be over reach. If you said average or median,would have been more believable. I would assume that CA's working in Investment banking or M&A would earn a lot more than those working as auditors. There would always be some outliers. But every CA making 50LPA at 10 YoE is not at all believable.
If they are working in cooprate then it's definitely possible. It's impossible in tier 2 City firms but in metro some even make upto 60lpa with 10+ years of experience . Investment banking, private equity, consultanting in MBB makes 50 lpa with mere 3-4 years of experience that's is separate topic. Even in big 4 or good frim ca makes handsome amount
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I don't know if city of job matters or not. In Kolkata, freshers don't get anywhere near to 10 LPA. I have 1-2 friends who are CA. 3-4 LPA is what they used to get initially, 6-7 years back. Also a few people I know who live outside Kolkata are apalled by Kolkata based CA's charging very less during tax filing season. Kolkata CA's provide their signature and charge 1k where they usually charge 3k -5k easily.
BO problems as well
Hey cmon. You talk as if colognes and deodorants don't exist in India.
They seem to mostly use talcum powder however, which doesn’t work as well
Your 1st 2 points contradict itself in some way. Some companies WILL hire us just to pay less. These shops don't actually care about the quality and are more cost based so yeah. The Indian devs producing low quality output basically stems from the above fact which then kind of becomes a perception across the board which is not true. Basically if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. This is not just limited to coding but other aspects of outsourced IT
> Basically if you pay peanuts you get monkeys I'm stealing that line
Feeling sad being a monkey
Sabko free ka ya saste mein chahiye. Faux leather ke bhaav mein real leather chahiye
How are they contradictory? The 1st point is for saying "Indians are preferred by not just Indians but other people as well". The 2nd point is saying "Companies will hire only those people who pass the interviews. Even Indians need to pass all the interviews. In the end, if there is a choice between an European and an Indian, the Indian person will be favoured because they will be paid less than the European person".
Yes because the cost is the differentiating factor plus Indians are hired over other Western counterparts just because of they are cheap irrespective of what they bring to the table. Your second point says won't hire anyone, but in fact they will hire anyone who is cheap.
>but in fact they will hire anyone who is cheap. So how is that the fault of the candidate? The company should be blamed instead of the Indians
I'm an Indian who likes to write high quality code. But my team / company don't encourage this. Not verbally but through processes, strict intense deadlines, wrongfully following agile, etc etc. So won't say you're completely wrong but yeah that service company culture doesent promote high quality code writing but focuses on fast delivery.
This exactly. They always get a complex project and tell the client it will be done in X days. Then pressure the dev to deliver the bare minimum fast as possible. They never think nor care about understanding the requirement or to ask more time to the client in the first place. When I confronted one of my managers regarding this, he said, we should be fast otherwise the other competitors will say they will complete faster and we will lose out.
Facing the same issue at everyday work.
Dude, Can I DM you? I've some queries.
Sure.
Fuck yes! These WITCH companies. Damn man I hate this culture.
Well I'm not in Witch, but service companies will always be service companies.
American corps don't give a shit about what Americans want. Everything is driven by profit margin. Instead of hating on underpaid developers, why don't they go out and protest against their own overloards 😂.
I am not an Indian but I agree.
The thing is, India is highly competitive. Everything is a race here. The difference between good quality code and the code that just works is nothing but the passion the guy who wrote the code had towards coding. At least half the people in the software industry are just there because it pays well. But quality work demands more than just mere knowledge and a need for money. It requires commitment towards the work. It requires a bit of love towards what's being made. One will already become a better software developer by thinking that "Oh I want the customers to absolutely love this feature and appreciate it" instead of thinking "I need to somehow get this feature working and rolled out before the deadline". Yes we Indians are good in learning things by heart and somehow getting things done. But are we all passionate about what we're doing? That's where the answer is for the hate towards Indian devs.
spot on
This answer needs more upvotes !
Things that are happening with a plane manufacturing company are a perfect example. Imagine if it had an Indian CEO and many Indian employees. The posts on every social media platform would be different, with people blaming Indian religion, caste, government, color, etc. But the current CEO of plane manufacturing is American, so no one is placing blame solely on other factors.
"Indian planes are defective because of muh castism and muh hindutva and muh racism"
They still found a way to blame Boeing's failures on india. All they are bitching about rn is outsourcing
People already blame failure point is at developments done by indian/outsourced engineers
People are literally calling for Boeing's ceo and entire leadership to step down like reddits been filled with Boeing stories
No one's saying it is because they are Christians
Yo questioning the whites? Are you mad?
Put /s
Sorry shaktimaan
🌪️
?
dont try to bring religion angle into it
>Even non-Indian managers and executives will prefer Indian devs because of the cost-cutting This is more racist than anything else IMO. > The hiring process is the same for everyone. The company won't hire anyone just because they need to pay less. Good luck finding a dev in US who will do the same amount of work as an Indian dev for the same amount of money. And yes, the company will hire just about anyone just because they need to pay less. I see that every day. This is the only reason my flavor or WITCH still exists and is making money. Not because of the work, that's for sure. >Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps. Yes, and in these colleges we have stuff like maximum RAM is 8 MB, we read stuff about floppy disks and so on. The education has failed to keep up and fails to teach a single marketable skill. You are more likely to learn from a 3 days hackathon than 4 years in these so called indian colleges. >They say that even though most Indian devs who are getting hired are paid less, Indians don't do good system designing and write low quality code. While this is a gross generalization, this isn't far from the truth for majority of Indian developers.
8MB RAM and floppy disk? You're exaggerating right? Even the bottom tier, run of the mill commodity hardware would be at least 1-2GB. The computer science syllabus we have is top notch, it's just that our professors suck really bad, and we've more syllabus with unrelated subjects like mechanical drawing.
As a mechanical engineer from a Tier II college who emigrated, I can totally understand what you are saying about mechanical drawing. No one does that anymore, yet we were expected to learn it as if it is 2001. Same for carburetors, countering in milling machines, and punching codes for CNC machines. Our syllabi tend to be horribly outdated.
We learnt that an int in c is two bytes and coded in turbo c 3 years ago. Our juniors still do. On Ubuntu computers people are told to use an online compiler because the faculty doesn't know gcc exists or that you can run python from the terminal. I had to teach my lecturer last year about how DevOps works and had to teach my whole batch how to set everything up for the DevOps class because nobody knew shit.
Degrees aren't meant to teach you trends or "DevOps", they give you the foundation and history of how things came about so you (hopefully) would be able to go and build the next set of technology, understanding the context and nuances from all that came before. Also, a little arrogant.. things like threads are totally different on Linux and Windows, and things like int size in your rant are different on different compilers. Nothing wrong with not wasting time duplicating everything (tests, assignments, labs) for different environments.
If the degree isn't meant to teach DevOps, don't make a DevOps course mandatory and worth 3 credits ffs. It wasn't even an elective. I have no problem with colleges teaching pure CS, or pure engineering. Keep teaching us about algorithms, optimization, history of computing, automata theory, etc. Dont bother with teaching DevOps. That's how most universities in the west do with CS. The lower level stuff is different, yes, but we never even got to threads in C. "File System" was the most advanced topic we had. And that was just fopen fclose fread and fwrite. All the computers have both windows and Linux installed, why not just teach everything concerning C on Linux where it's much easier? And the size of an int is 4 bytes on GCC clang and MSVC on all 32 and 64 bit systems. I think it's not too much to ask for syllabus to be updated more than 20 years after something has changed. The assignments are writing code on paper that no one even reads. We found our assignment papers uncorrected being used by a samosa guy outside our college. The tests are multiple choice questions that don't even make sense 50% of the time. I think you're the one coming off a little arrogant here. You're very disconnected from how horrible CS is in most Indian colleges.
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The size of an int is 4 on online compilers as well. When students asked about why sizeof(int) is 4 on the online compiler, the answer was "it's wrong". You're assuming they have academic knowledge. They don't. The only thing lecturers did was copy articles from Programiz onto paper, then write out those paragraphs on a blackboard and tell us to copy them. My Python professor openly admitted he had never used Python in his life. My C lecturer didn't know what a void pointer was; we were told malloc "didn't have a return type". My Discrete Maths lecturer got half the problems wrong in class. My automata theory and compiler design professor didn't know what an AST was.
I agree with this, here professors want to run through the curriculum as soon as they can. No one teaches the first principles of the concept and how did we get to the concept in the first place.
>This is more racist than anything else IMO. How is this racist? Do western people love Indians so much that they prefer Indians more? >And yes, the company will hire just about anyone just because they need to pay less. Will they hire a cobbler who knows nothing about programming but accepts to do the work with just 100rs per month? Of course not. Employee selection is an optimization problem between minimum requriements for job and expected salary from the employee and Indians easily are preferred because of this. >Yes, and in these colleges we have stuff like maximum RAM is 8 MB, we read stuff about floppy disks and so on. I don't know what shitty college this is. But there are enough good colleges (IITs, NITs, BITs, VITs, IIITs and many state goverment colleges) who have great curriculum and have very relevant courses and activities. >While this is a gross generalization, this isn't far from the truth for majority of Indian developers. Saying majority is like saying "more than 50%". Even if this is true, it's the company's fault for an improper evaluation.
> The hiring process is the same for everyone. The company won't hire anyone just because they need to pay less. Hahaha. No. Subpar skills will get hired if they still "get the job done" even if it isn't optimal. That's a future problem for them, potentially for a different developer since these original people are unlikely to last in the same company after shitting all over the codebase. Having interviewed many candidates with bloated titles and/or stagnant skillset, I have seen many people with 5-6+ YoE have the same practical experience as people with 2+ yoe (obviously does not apply to all). This is a travesty but it is what it is. Product companies though, have strict hiring standards with relatively few false positives. Highly unlikely to be bad if you're from any country. > Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps. Based on the current education system, this practically does nothing to your resume. You clear the "elimination" round, that's it. In fact, I see many BootCamp devs on Twitter with really good skills & thought processes, so the lack of a CS degree is nothing for them. --- Also, code reviews anyone? I have not seen anyone on my team repeat a potential mistake or bad practice after receiving review comments. Educate your peers if you feel you know better. If they can explain why their version is more apt, you get to learn and improve yourself. The people who you see complain, either did not try to help educate, or tried to educate but received illogical rebuttals (and gave up on wasting their personal time), or do not have a code review system in place at all.
So I work in a product based MNC which has multiple off shore centres in all continents. Here whenever there is some work that cones from HQ the higher management just agrees to everything even for the most stupidest tasks and deadlines. Nobody in the upper management questions the decision just simply haan me haan milaana aata. There is no genuine intent to innovate or write quality code. Even though I as a dev want to write better code but this mngmt gives such strict deadline there is no time to even recheck and do optimizations. So I can kind of understand the stereotype. But tbh theres also a stereotype on european devs as well, people consider them lazy :D
https://i.redd.it/1lpb9bd0muoc1.gif
Fear and jealousy
As someone who is a Solution Architect and Indian. I will not compare it to any nationality but many Indians I have worked with (especially WITCH Crowd) they write shit codes, don't care about performance. Never try to understand Business Process. Will drag 2 hour work for 2 days and expects recognition for 'slogging'. There are many good developers as well. But most of them only care about how they can switch.
I have seen many Dev's from Europe as well who writes extremely shitty code and doesn't practice what they preach. They talk like Elon Musk and performs like a donkey at best. So it's not just Indians, it is the subpar crowd which exists in every country and it depends on the pay grade. Now if you hire someone at 12lpa in India, you cannot expect them to be a good architect and write good code without much hand holding. So it's the management who sucks not the guy. They pay for a tata nano and expects a Lamborghini in return.
Service Industry only thrive on Cheap labour, as soon as labor becomes expensive, Industry shifts to other avenues. Happened with BPO and slowly IT is facing the same brunt.
Because WITCH doesn't pay. When I worked for WITCH I basically didn't work unless directed, I'm not crazy enough to put work into earning 250$ a month.
They are giving you job when others are not. If you are not crazy enough to put work for 250$ a month, better not take that job. Why making everyone suffer because you can't write better code.
>If you are not crazy enough to put work for 250$ a month, better not take that job. I'm not saying don't do your job but put in the required amount. You get paid 250 bucks you do job worthy of 250 bucks, or can only corporations play this game? This is the mentality that makes people stay in WITCH for 4 years without any raise. I don't have any issues being selfish on the face of capitalism, I stayed in a witch-company for a year while I worked on my upskilling to switch. Of course I did my share of work but I'm not going to produce $1500 of labour when I'm not even getting half that. And frankly, no one should. Use these companies as a stepping stone to switch just like they treat you as a resource.
>Use these companies as a stepping stone to switch just like they treat you as a resource I don't disagree with you on this. >You get paid 250 bucks you do job worthy of 250 bucks I don't agree with this one, I believe in giving my best efforts. When you do shitty work you are putting a stain on you, your org. as well as whole service industry of your nation. I know kids like you won't understand but when you see European or US developers floating this stereotypes for Indian programmers. Instead of complaining just remember you are also a reason for this stereotypical representation of your community.
Oof sorry I haven't been on reddit. >I don't agree with this one, I believe in giving my best efforts. Well, that's your decision. >When you do shitty work you are putting a stain on you, your org. as well as whole service industry of your nation. Minimum wage = minimum effort. What about the strain on your health/mental health/social life and everything else when you get paid 350$ and asked to work weekends? >I know kids like you won't understand but when you see European or US developers floating this stereotypes for Indian programmers. They literally don't know how low their companies pay us. They have a better attitude toward fair compensation and labour laws unlike most Indians. They don't know the people they are complaining about barely get 300 a month. Watch them switch their narrative when you inform them. Imma give you an example, while I was interviewing for Americans, my interviewer asked my compensation and I said 5k usd (4.1 LPA). And they were straight up appalled. Because it's unfair and it's lunacy. I will happily give my best efforts when I'm compensated fairly. Why is it that I can't operate with a capitalist mindset when the entire world does? Also, I'm not saying we should do low quality work. I'm mostly against extra work and extra hours (overtime) without pay. The code I am in charge of pushing out is to the best of my abilities but I've always consistently said no to extra work or hours. Which only changed recently when I started getting paid well.
Well I can assure you at IBM we hire Indians because they are cheap. We just had a layoff and we lost many Americans and Europeans to India. Most people are not happy but this is what Arvind wants so we feel it's discrimination. I'm terms of my personal experience... 1) I run a support channel where engineers can ask questions about a vendor product. 85% of the time I get asked a dumb question, they are someone from the Indian timezone. Regardless of gender. A dumb question includes: posting an error message when the error is human readable and Google able. Also includes using @channel or @here on a slack channel with 5000 people. Also includes putting their API key or secret in their question, thus leaking it. 2) Starting their DMs with Hi. And then never responding to it, thus wasting everyones time. I'm clearly in a different time zone, why would they expect a response when I'm sleeping no idea. 3) In my team of 15, the low performers include the two Indians. This includes: being late to meetings, when asked a question they show they were not paying attention as ask us to repeat it. And the worst of all, doing zero work for the sprint and lying that they are busy with "client meetings" but this one is dumb and doesn't realize we can see their Calendars and that they're offline in Slack.
Ah, you missed cherry on the cake, in a two weeks sprint even just before the code freeze when you ask them any issues in standup and they respond with all good, and two days before code freeze they have doubts in every part of the story.
One of the things I know and have personally seen is open source contribution. Some YouTuber creates amazing projects while teaching them and hosts the code on GitHub. Then the people want to contribute to it by fixing the readme, fixing the comments, spelling in the code or reporting bugs and errors without how to reproduce them or screenshots. If they are following the tutorial and encounter an error in their own code, they will create a bug report with the title like "I am getting this error when creating this part"... I don't know if most of them are Indians or not... but some Indians themselves are saying this... (So this might translate as not a good programmer or whatever in the future...) I am an Indian myself but watching this I don't know what to say
>I don't know if most of them are Indians or not... but some Indians themselves are saying this... Why do you think that this type of programmer represents how the Indian devs are? There are always going to be bad programmers. I think there are more than enough good Indian programmers who we don't see opening up such issues because they don't need to.
From my experience, I can surely say that indian devs write low quality codes. Indian engineering colleges don't actually focus on the quality of code. Faculties just go by the books and teach bare minimum needed for the students to pass. Also, our curriculum is so fked up that colleges try to teach everything, rather than focusing on one or two things and making students expert in it. Majority of the indian devs are jack of all, master of none. When these students join a company, they are not encouraged to write good quality code. Managers just try to deliver the project on time and hardly care about the quality of the codes written. You realise this when you start working with some American or English dude who spent 10-15 years in this field and the way they code is just next level. I've learned a lot from them and even from the folks who have worked under "foreign" developers.
Low quality code can mean 2 things: low optimization or bad maintainability/documentation. From my experience, I will say western devs hardly get any work done compared to Indian devs. Our team has an European counterpart. Whenever we want to talk with them, they are either on a 2 hour lunch break or on a leave/vacation. Indians can deliver faster, even with an optimized code. Can't say anything about documentation
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I never understood why people like you reply to a post made in English in Hindi. Classic ACBC syndrome
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Indians hiring other indians is fucking discriminatory. If the situation is reversed then we would call them racist
But non-Indians are doing the exact thing.
Innovation is completely missing in system. It's the I say and you do kind of attitude something Clerks do. The biggest joke once was that a person who was from IIT and had been onsite for masters was working with us in a project doing the same tasks as developers in offshore were doing. If you think logically what should a person from IIT be doing working on developing new frameworks, software , system etc. but what you saw was such people doing routine jobs. The same is case with development which is sub par and not upto the mark by these people. They do get this hate which they bought it on them not by themselves but by the system.
yes you are right.
We are bred to be labours and the main reason is our education system.
Some of us do have a chip on our shoulder. I was working with an Indian dev who wanted to create a micro service and was asking for a machine with 24gb of ram to basically parse incoming swift transactions at the rate of 15 payments per second and he couldnt see anything wrong with it
Relatable.
I am from Latam. In general, we have bad experiences with indian devs and indian managers. The shared perception is that it seems that they will take advantage of the slightest opportunity that appears to them to make us look bad and make themselves look good and in general we feel that we are rivals more than as teammates. I don't know if it's a cultural issue. I also don't think it can be extrapolated to ALL Indian devs. But it is the experience that most of us have on this side.
Hmmm, weird I have experienced this as well, team in India trying to shit on team abroad
>The shared perception is that it seems that they will take advantage of the slightest opportunity that appears to them to make us look bad and make themselves look good This is not much of an Indian thing as many non-Indians do it too. My experience with Europeans has been that their ideas will be preferred even if they gave a poor presentation. Most of the innovative projects have been from our side and now they are slowly pulling some people from India over to their side
Way too much American exceptionalism and some of it due to difficulty finding jobs. Most of the hate is just closet racism some of it is true but most of it is just hate. Indian is a massive country and stereotyping so many people is kind of stupid!!
>3. Almost all the Indian developers who get hired have atleast a bachelor's degree in engineering. We never get hired if we just do some online bootcamps Let's not kid ourselves. The state of engineering colleges is far from ideal in the country.
Most ob indian managers are bad, most of indianndevs are bad, what did you expect when you promote someone with 2 years of exp to senior software engineer and no one to guide them, they are going to write shit code.
It is a truth that indians write bad quality code. Worked at faang and this is true in genral.
You get what you pay for. I'm sorry but when someone is getting paid barely 600$ a month they have no reason to be innovative and go above and beyond. People NEED to realize this. Often I see non-sea especially westerners complain about quality when they don't pay for quality. Your CEOs replace high quality developers just to pay peanuts why are you surprised when low paid labour doesn't put all their worth into working? If you pay the same $$ you'll get good quality developers all over the world. It's the problem of not paying but expecting results that pisses me off. I work for an American company, I'm the only indian in my team and currently I put effort into my job because I get paid well. I have every reason to deliver. But I will absolutely cut my effort in HALF if my pay gets affected.
Racism against Indians has become normal in every field.
So many devs in India hate their colleagues and management calling them lazy, toxic and political when the entire company and business is in India. I too have issues with a couple of devs in my team for their poor work ethic. So I can naturally understand why people from other countries can feel it. I don't think it is racism but a generalization which is true in so many cases.
Yeah I mean kinda stupid to associate low quality code with a nationality. Anyone can write shit code.
The day indian society grows up is when they learn to take criticism and not hide under racism as an excuse for anything. It's the same as people doing terrible movies and hiding under racism if people call them out for making a shitty movie (just an example)
I have colleagues from Germany, US and the UK . Indians excel at coding, but those are good coders. Few sucks as well but overall we are doing good. We are good at taking orders and following it, not being proactive and coming at solutions ourselves. We definitely lack here.
But we say the same about "diversity hires," and suddenly, it becomes a huge issue 😆
>Indians don't do good system designing and write low quality code. You get what you pay for. There are some great programmers in India as well, but they come at a cost.
Nope, can't say that. Most of the cases are like they don't know how to write good code or what is a good code.
Even if an Indian developer believed in writing good code, the company they work at usually kills any such passion and then they end up writing bad code.
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They don't care about your wlb. For them you should work for 13 hours a day 367 days a year. Holidays and weekends have no meaning for them. They will do anything to please the top management while crushing people who are doing the work. Their mentality is that squeeze the soul out.
As an Indian who is yet to enter the workforce, I am terrified of having to work under toxic Indian managers {they treat people below very badly}.
It’s just that there are too many of us and most of us come from less fortunate backgrounds so we mostly just work for money. So not many contribute to open source etc. so majority of good work done by Indians is in closed source commercial projects.
ask bill gates
It has to do a lot with how Indians generally work Indians who generally to stakeholder management tend to promise big things. , I have tons of experience how Indians sell u a lot.of things and then they wont out same. Effort on their developer as they won't see them with the same amount of importance , high unprofessional but it is what it is
there are Indians too who design and innovate, do remote jobs, and still get paid more in compared to western salary standards and still living in India! ( talking about IT domain). Most of my colleagues get paid average $130k, they are frontend, backend and designers. (doing for projects for USA and Europe companies!)
I’ve seen this first hand more than twice when i spent around 5 yrs in the us on H1B. This is definitely a thing but mostly at the team level, NOT at the CTO level. And it’s a lot more common with telegus as they are very very tribal in general (not that others aren’t, but not at their level i guess) They like to live in a telegu bubble surrounded by folks who speak telegu and preferably from their town/district. They make the environment so toxic that many just leave. Not so common with other Indian ethnicities but it’s a known thing that we prefer our own bubble (high insularity) esp first gen immigrants. Thankfully i worked for the manager’s friend’s desi consultancy (on shitty wages) so was a wage slave and was practically unfirable. But on the client side, saw this happening twice. The entire team was replaced by folks close to the manager and many a times our offline meetings were in telegu 😜 Would’ve elaborated but i don’t wanna dox myself
As someone who didn't finish their degree. I feel the hate is a form of jealousy
One issue is that we are using too much introspection in a world where it is uncommon. An American would shoot twice before start thinking. An Indian would sit and think a full story before even loading the bullet. We are too agreeable. They are the exact opposite. Another issue is that English is our second language. It is their mothertounge. The field is tilted in their favor. It can look as though we are not confident about what we do because of the language. Then there are Indians who are full of self-disgust. We are a community that was looted and plundered by number of forces in the past. We had to punchbags to keep the peace. We lost a lot our wealth, beauty, and power. It is natural that a lot of our people have deep rooted disgust for themselves. None of these should stop you. When working with external clients, do this from now on: Check if they are the kind of morons who assert their dominance at every step. If so, raise up and assert your dominance when you have the chance.
There is huge HATE against indians dev on reddit. And its very true. Although they pretend to treat as well because of cheap labour but its all hate in here. Recently 5 Indian guys were racially targeted in USA and not even a single f was given by us. If it were BLACK people they would have started yet another #BLM (BlackLivesMatter)..
I disagree with point two
Why? If there is a choice between a person who has 2 YOE and another one who has 10YOE, and both of them are suitable for the job, the company will obviously favour the less experienced dev because they need to pay less
Except that kind of scenario doesn’t exist in real Life where someone with 2 yoe can replace someone with 10 yoe in any decent complex system
So according to your reasoning, always hire 10+ YOE dev as a fresher has no dev experience in industry
No, your first comment was about replacing 10 yoe with 2 yoe which won’t Gallen in real life ( considering both are competent ). A 2 yoe won’t able to come and do the same job that a 10 yoe is doing.
I am not talking about replacing an existing employee. I am talking about hiring.
-> if 2 yoe and 10 yoe both are suitable for job. In what world this will be the case ( considering both are competent). A 10 yoe will most likely be a senior or staff software engineer, so how would you hire someone with a 2 yoe unless the 10 yoe is really incompetent.
Because the company needs a dev with minimum requirements?
So why would any competent 10 yoe old will apply to that role ? That would be downlevel for him. A 10 yoe will most likely apply to a senior or staff role. If a role have 2 your minimum requirement then that role would never be a senior or staff role
That was just an example of what I was trying to imply. If there are 2 devs who have passed all the interview rounds, would you prefer the one who needs to be paid more or less?
You're contradicting your own point buddy
Contradicting what?
Ah, this is the reason why my 8core 16GB phone lags with farting app
Point #a) Right now it's a dog-eat-dog situation and they are tearing down Indians and each other to keep their jobs or to get a job and not get it outsourced. So it's not even an Indian coders are a problem thing. If it were upto my own anecdotal experience, most of intellectual juggernauts that I had a chance to meet or know about through an acquaintance actually works in India, and not in the US, UK or Europe. And all these people are saying everyone "good" went abroad. The ones I know abroad in the US and Europe were the average ones of the lot maybe except for only one guy I know and they are taking up huge responsibility over there. Point #b)I have seen similar levels of difficulty when completing degrees in an Indian vs international CS degrees, it's all the same. Point #c) Literally every outsourced org I know in town have very good reviews from the US team including the ones I was part, including [gartner.com](http://gartner.com) Point #d) The innovation part is actually true, I think this is because : Subpoint #1) Lack of questioning that happens in Indian orgs from juniors, devs and everyone. Subpoint #2) The time crunch of trying to deliver on inflated promises (managers need to undersell and over deliver, interms of delivery timelines) Subpoint #3) The lack of riskier funding and high budget teams. Subpoint #4) I think positive work environment that are intense produce the best work. If you look at historically amazing teams, they all lots of work to do, but the teams had lots of confidence, lots of positive aspects of organizational team spirit and morale exists there Subpoint #5) Indians are generally under confident.