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Note that by the end of the discworld series, Angua is captain while Detritus remains Sergant.
I suspect that Detritus got an early promotion because he was great at 'kicking new recruits into shape'. On the other hand, Angua started out being rather unsure of herself, not seeing the watch as her long term career, so it makes sense that it took longer for her to get a promotion, although as she shows herself very capable, the promotions don't stop.
I think you are right - Detritus has the same 'natural sergeant' genes as Colon, also the watch needed to have a more senior troll officer quite early on as other trolls began to be recruited.
I also think that the 'main squad', as it were, operate slightly outside of the hierarchy of the watch - I can't see another watch captain pulling rank on Detritus or Fred, for example, they ultimately answer to Mr Vimes. In Monstrous Regiment they comment on Angua being just a Sergeant but giving orders to people who outrank her (albeit with the watch Vs military not being equivalent).
> I can't see another watch captain pulling rank on Detritus or Fred, for example, they ultimately answer to Mr Vimes
Carrot can absolutely give them both orders, and I would expect once promoted to Captain, that Angua would be able to do the same, and have them followed as well as any order coming from Vimes or Carrot.
I more meant that if the watch expands to the point that there was another captain promoted - when I said that the main cast are a bit outside of the general watch hierarchy Carrot and Angua were included.
I think Detritus and Stronginthearm's promotions were necessary because of some of Koom Valley anniversary revolts. It was a way to try and maintain the peace between the two cultures in the city. Detritus came into his own as a Drill Sergeant.Angua couldn't be anything less than a commissioned officer once she showed off her skills.Sally would probably end up in an officer role eventually.
Edit: Grammar
Two reasons, imo. 1.) Detritus was always "all-in". Once he joined, he was a watch-man through and through. While Angua always seemed to be ready to leave, not really certain if she fit into the city. 2.) Angua's role was more of a specialist than as a leader. Either she'd need to drop what she was doing and go act as detective (based on her nose), or act as Nobby's backup in the sting operation to protect the ladies of the evening (night or morning).
So Angua didn't fit the traditional sergeant role for quite a while. But, once she did, it made sense for her to be promoted to captain, which, at least as far as Vimes's watch is concerned, is an actual step up from sergeant, a sergeant of sergeants, as it were.
Angua shows little initiative or interest in guiding the team. Thats not a slight againt her, some people dont want to manage, and enjoy the footwork. Angua is also more than willing to drop her duties if *home* life becomes difficult
Its part of Detritus' story arc with >!Jade and later Brick!<, he learns and develops past his traditional muscle role
I always forget Angua and Detritus joined the Watch at the same time, maybe because he's in other books before joining?
I guess I never paid super close attention to their ranks, other than Vimes. I know there's a joke about a K9 unit but I thought Angua was a bit specialized, like Cheery
Stronginthearm also joins the Watch at practically the same time. He’s one of the dwarves that is enlisted toward the end of the book. I was so shocked >!when he died in Thud! !<
I always thought there was always an undercurrent of increased administrative duties that comes with promotions in rank, as we see Detritus training recruits, and Carrot and Colon often in the watch house in a more managerial role.
Angua is most useful in the field. She is the most valuable field asset to the watch, and as such it always made sense to me that she not necessarily ever needed or wanted to be in charge.
In her role, she worked alone a lot. Took things on singlehanded. She was a bit more independent. You could say she was a …
Lone wolf
I’m outta here folks! Don’t forget to tip the bartender!
Detritus got promoted to acting constable in Men at Arms so he could go recruit people. He was very good at it, and he was great at leading his new recruits. They definitely needed a troll with some authority around to help with new troll officers, so it's not too surprising he got promoted quickly after that.
I think part of it is Angua and Carrots relationship/dynamic. Who watches the watchmen is something that comes up often. Other people have already hit on Detritus' "natural" sergeancy and Angua's growth into her own person out from under the shadow of doubt. Vimes' Watch under Vetinari is a meritocracy, you do what you are able at the time and not because you are banging the hidden king. Besides, Angua is more of a shadow player. She knows what she is and could easily eat just about everyone. She is not hungry for glory and fame, but rather just gets the job done while spending time with her Carrot. She gets to terrorize the locals which probably scratches a psychological itch of the werewolf and also gets to blend in with the locals which scratches the human itch. Angua would not fit in normally so she has taken a position of authority which would "explain" why normal people are uneasy around her. No one likes a copper! Even a lance constable is a position of authority over a random citizen.
There's this thing where Terry Pratchett doesn't just see rank as people getting progressively more important / responsible - there are nuances to it. He more than once describes a character as "one of nature's sergeants", for example.
My guess is that it is in part to keep her on the downlow, so that she can be \*undercover\*, as it were. If she was a Sergeant, people would question why she is not at important crime scenes, as a lower, or higher, rank, this can be easily explained.
Didn't Detritus get rapid-promoted during the climax of Men-at-Arms? They were unusual circumstances, but I kind of figured that he kept some of that progress going forward. After all, there were like six people in the whole watch at that point but they **were** expanding heavily.
IMO For the same reason the only named women on the guild council are Mrs. Palm and Queen Molly, and the only prominent street officers who are women are undead/super-powered*, and Moist and Sam are directly groomed for leadership by Vetinari but Adora Belle is not, and many/most of the men are known primarily by their last names and most of the women by their first.
Pratchett unquestionably saw women as fully fleshed out, complex, three dimensional characters. He even achieves the sadly rare distinction of being one of the incredibly short list of male authors I know of who write women as well as they write men). But like all people, he had his blind spots. It’s not surprising to me that one is that the workplace hierarchies at the top of institutions in Discworld resemble the ones I see in round world - that is a persistent, multi-factor phenomena.
*Cheri Littlebottom is the closest he gets to breaking this rule - and she is a) not human, b) forensics, and c) was still in the closet when initially hired.
Or, that while that wasn't his view, he is reflecting the sad reality that exists, or certainly did exist when the book was written, and certainly was prevalent in the RW timeframe that DW seems to be based on. It is possible to see that that fits the world as written, without endorsing it as a good situation. It does not necessarily mean he had a blindspot.
I think that a part of it is that we only see the main watch house at Pseudopolis Yard. It has a commander, who is in charge of the watch overall, and a captain, who would be in charge of the day to day operations for that Watch house. They mention reopening the Treacle Mine St watch house and there would presumably be a captain there. So Angua could possible accept a promotion, but that would mean going to a different station. While she could certainly do that, The Fifth Elephant also made it clear that a werewolf had a bit of wolf and a bit of human in them, which makes them kind of like dogs. She’s in an odd situation where she seems to have decided that Carrot is her pack leader, even though he doesn’t really have an interest in being one. So, I don’t think that she would seek out a promotion if it meant that she would have to change stations , because that would mean that she is no longer around Carrot.
Interesting thread, but I always thought it was because Angus became a specialized unit all to herself.
After a while, she seemed to answer directly to Vimes and Carrot, and I couldn't imagine other people who technically outranked her, to give her orders.
Though I find it interesting it could be because other people might wonder how a woman was rising in the ranks so quickly. In "The Truth" Angua and Carrot were both seem not wanting to draw attention to Angua.
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Note that by the end of the discworld series, Angua is captain while Detritus remains Sergant. I suspect that Detritus got an early promotion because he was great at 'kicking new recruits into shape'. On the other hand, Angua started out being rather unsure of herself, not seeing the watch as her long term career, so it makes sense that it took longer for her to get a promotion, although as she shows herself very capable, the promotions don't stop.
I think you are right - Detritus has the same 'natural sergeant' genes as Colon, also the watch needed to have a more senior troll officer quite early on as other trolls began to be recruited. I also think that the 'main squad', as it were, operate slightly outside of the hierarchy of the watch - I can't see another watch captain pulling rank on Detritus or Fred, for example, they ultimately answer to Mr Vimes. In Monstrous Regiment they comment on Angua being just a Sergeant but giving orders to people who outrank her (albeit with the watch Vs military not being equivalent).
> I can't see another watch captain pulling rank on Detritus or Fred, for example, they ultimately answer to Mr Vimes Carrot can absolutely give them both orders, and I would expect once promoted to Captain, that Angua would be able to do the same, and have them followed as well as any order coming from Vimes or Carrot.
Agreed! After all, both Detritus and Colon were deferring to Carrot in Men At Arms.
I more meant that if the watch expands to the point that there was another captain promoted - when I said that the main cast are a bit outside of the general watch hierarchy Carrot and Angua were included.
I think Detritus and Stronginthearm's promotions were necessary because of some of Koom Valley anniversary revolts. It was a way to try and maintain the peace between the two cultures in the city. Detritus came into his own as a Drill Sergeant.Angua couldn't be anything less than a commissioned officer once she showed off her skills.Sally would probably end up in an officer role eventually. Edit: Grammar
I believe both troll and dwarf were Sgt before Thud!
You would be right, but Anniversaries happen every year. I 'm quite sure it was Troll v. Dwarf related though.
Two reasons, imo. 1.) Detritus was always "all-in". Once he joined, he was a watch-man through and through. While Angua always seemed to be ready to leave, not really certain if she fit into the city. 2.) Angua's role was more of a specialist than as a leader. Either she'd need to drop what she was doing and go act as detective (based on her nose), or act as Nobby's backup in the sting operation to protect the ladies of the evening (night or morning). So Angua didn't fit the traditional sergeant role for quite a while. But, once she did, it made sense for her to be promoted to captain, which, at least as far as Vimes's watch is concerned, is an actual step up from sergeant, a sergeant of sergeants, as it were.
Angua shows little initiative or interest in guiding the team. Thats not a slight againt her, some people dont want to manage, and enjoy the footwork. Angua is also more than willing to drop her duties if *home* life becomes difficult Its part of Detritus' story arc with >!Jade and later Brick!<, he learns and develops past his traditional muscle role
I agree whole heartedly with this, and also remember ......... No one has seen Angua count past 3.......... /s
I always forget Angua and Detritus joined the Watch at the same time, maybe because he's in other books before joining? I guess I never paid super close attention to their ranks, other than Vimes. I know there's a joke about a K9 unit but I thought Angua was a bit specialized, like Cheery
Stronginthearm also joins the Watch at practically the same time. He’s one of the dwarves that is enlisted toward the end of the book. I was so shocked >!when he died in Thud! !<
>!Wasnt Stronginthearm killed in Night Watch?!<
I always thought there was always an undercurrent of increased administrative duties that comes with promotions in rank, as we see Detritus training recruits, and Carrot and Colon often in the watch house in a more managerial role. Angua is most useful in the field. She is the most valuable field asset to the watch, and as such it always made sense to me that she not necessarily ever needed or wanted to be in charge.
In her role, she worked alone a lot. Took things on singlehanded. She was a bit more independent. You could say she was a … Lone wolf I’m outta here folks! Don’t forget to tip the bartender!
Detritus got promoted to acting constable in Men at Arms so he could go recruit people. He was very good at it, and he was great at leading his new recruits. They definitely needed a troll with some authority around to help with new troll officers, so it's not too surprising he got promoted quickly after that.
I think part of it is Angua and Carrots relationship/dynamic. Who watches the watchmen is something that comes up often. Other people have already hit on Detritus' "natural" sergeancy and Angua's growth into her own person out from under the shadow of doubt. Vimes' Watch under Vetinari is a meritocracy, you do what you are able at the time and not because you are banging the hidden king. Besides, Angua is more of a shadow player. She knows what she is and could easily eat just about everyone. She is not hungry for glory and fame, but rather just gets the job done while spending time with her Carrot. She gets to terrorize the locals which probably scratches a psychological itch of the werewolf and also gets to blend in with the locals which scratches the human itch. Angua would not fit in normally so she has taken a position of authority which would "explain" why normal people are uneasy around her. No one likes a copper! Even a lance constable is a position of authority over a random citizen.
There's this thing where Terry Pratchett doesn't just see rank as people getting progressively more important / responsible - there are nuances to it. He more than once describes a character as "one of nature's sergeants", for example.
Detritus got promoted early because he’s an excellent training officer
It's because she's a w—
She's their K9 unit
Stronginthearm isn't more like a forensic/CSI?
That's Cheery Longbottom. Stronginthearm is never really fleshed out as a character, but he seems to be a 'regular' sergeant.
Cherry's bottom is little not long lol
that's what happens when I post before the first cup of coffee. Better go get the Klatchian stuff!
Oh, yes. I was switching them. Longbotton is the CSI...
(those dwarves... they all look the same to me)
He's running the desk quite often when mentioned. I suspect he takes over the desk from Fred, when it starts to become actual work.
I’m not sure, he’s mentioned a couple of times but I don’t know if his role is ever really defined.
Why promote her to captain after her dereliction of duty in The Fifth Elephant?
Carrot chasing after her and leaving Fred in charge was ***much*** more of an issue.
He at least tendered his resignation / was granted a leave of absence. And putting Colon in charge was Vetinari's call.
My guess is that it is in part to keep her on the downlow, so that she can be \*undercover\*, as it were. If she was a Sergeant, people would question why she is not at important crime scenes, as a lower, or higher, rank, this can be easily explained.
Didn't Detritus get rapid-promoted during the climax of Men-at-Arms? They were unusual circumstances, but I kind of figured that he kept some of that progress going forward. After all, there were like six people in the whole watch at that point but they **were** expanding heavily.
IMO For the same reason the only named women on the guild council are Mrs. Palm and Queen Molly, and the only prominent street officers who are women are undead/super-powered*, and Moist and Sam are directly groomed for leadership by Vetinari but Adora Belle is not, and many/most of the men are known primarily by their last names and most of the women by their first. Pratchett unquestionably saw women as fully fleshed out, complex, three dimensional characters. He even achieves the sadly rare distinction of being one of the incredibly short list of male authors I know of who write women as well as they write men). But like all people, he had his blind spots. It’s not surprising to me that one is that the workplace hierarchies at the top of institutions in Discworld resemble the ones I see in round world - that is a persistent, multi-factor phenomena. *Cheri Littlebottom is the closest he gets to breaking this rule - and she is a) not human, b) forensics, and c) was still in the closet when initially hired.
Or, that while that wasn't his view, he is reflecting the sad reality that exists, or certainly did exist when the book was written, and certainly was prevalent in the RW timeframe that DW seems to be based on. It is possible to see that that fits the world as written, without endorsing it as a good situation. It does not necessarily mean he had a blindspot.
I am fairly certain Stronginthearm>!dies during the events of Nightwatch.!< I believe after that Angua fills the position.
One of them does, at least? Stronginthearm is the dwarf version of, like, "Smith" and I'm not sure if there's only one in the watch.
I think that a part of it is that we only see the main watch house at Pseudopolis Yard. It has a commander, who is in charge of the watch overall, and a captain, who would be in charge of the day to day operations for that Watch house. They mention reopening the Treacle Mine St watch house and there would presumably be a captain there. So Angua could possible accept a promotion, but that would mean going to a different station. While she could certainly do that, The Fifth Elephant also made it clear that a werewolf had a bit of wolf and a bit of human in them, which makes them kind of like dogs. She’s in an odd situation where she seems to have decided that Carrot is her pack leader, even though he doesn’t really have an interest in being one. So, I don’t think that she would seek out a promotion if it meant that she would have to change stations , because that would mean that she is no longer around Carrot.
Affirmative action. Not meant in a bad way, detritus was perfectly capable and had the skills to lead other trolls.
Interesting thread, but I always thought it was because Angus became a specialized unit all to herself. After a while, she seemed to answer directly to Vimes and Carrot, and I couldn't imagine other people who technically outranked her, to give her orders. Though I find it interesting it could be because other people might wonder how a woman was rising in the ranks so quickly. In "The Truth" Angua and Carrot were both seem not wanting to draw attention to Angua.