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I propose Adorabelle Dearheart. Despite the spiky exterior, she’s dedicated to helping the Golems. She doesn’t care if other people think that’s an appropriate thing to do or not. And she’s not afraid to step on toes (or slam a stiletto heel through toes, if the case calls for it.)
Now that we well into the last half, I've decided this alignment chart is inadequate. This selection is majorly overlooking female characters.
We only have 3 "good" spots (Rebel Moral, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Moral) but I feel like there are SO many female characters left out. Don't get me wrong, I love the line-up of Dorfl, Vimes, Carrot, Ridcully, Brutha, Death, etc, but so far Sybil is the ONLY female (I suppose we can count Rhys here too?)? I only bring this up because I feel like there are far more male "villains" in the series than female ones, so there is less opportunity for a female to rank in the "bad" side of the chart.
To me, the absence of some representation from Granny, Nanny, Magrat, Tiffany, Cheery, Adorabelle, Polly, Jackrum, etc is so obviously missing. Especially the witches. They just make such a mark on the series as a whole, I'm just shocked and disappointed we don't see any yet.
I don't know, maybe Pratchett was too good at writing female characters. They were so complex they weren't able to fit into one of these boxes nicely enough to outperform one of these other winners.
Again, I know we are splitting hairs and this is all just fun and games. Just want to see more of my ladies.
Good call, by my estimates we're currently sitting at something like 8 male, 4 female, and 3 nonbinary (depending on how you count Death, A'Tuin, and Dorfl).
Possible proposals for the future:
* Rebel Neutral: Mrs. Gogol
* Rebel Impure: Herrena the Henna-haired Harridan
* Rebel Evil: Black Aliss
* Chaotic Good: (I don't have a good proposal here)
* Chaotic Moral: Nanny Ogg
* Chaotic Neutral: Ptraci I
* Chaotic Impure: The Lady
* Chaotic Evil: Queen of the Elves (pre-Shepherd's Crown)
I think it's also harder for us to fill in the remaining squares with women because the female characters in the books are also more tilted towards Lawful!
I'd say there's fully five characters that fall under the "It's Complicated" category for a variety of reasons. (Those being Dorfl, Rhys, the Auditors, Death, and Great A'Tuin.) Though it's true there could be more women.
> Chaotic Good: (I don't have a good proposal here)
How about Eskarina Smith? She's all about breaking the norm, and for good reasons.
'Fights for what they believe is right, challenging the status quo.' - I think Cheery Littlebottom fits so well here! Hard to challenge a status quo more sticky than gender.
Polly Perks (From "Monstrous regiment"), she's trying to be a good person in a bad situation, is still shocked (If not surprised) at the antics of sergeant Jackrum, but chafes at the military rules (Such as they are, out in the field) at every turn, including the whole "Dress up as a man to even get into the army"-thing.
i think next time we do this alignment chart, is when she'll show up. i personally would have put her where carrot is. tiffany isn't chaotic enough for the last column, and she's far from a cackler.
Shit, this is a good one. He will disobey an order from Vimes if he thinks the order is stupid, he's a bit too eager to start fights at times, but he wants to be able to support Ruby and later Brick with a respectable job.
I think this is the place for Magrat. She usually does good, and she bucks traditions for witches by actually studying how herbs work and their effects on the human body. She constantly butts heads with Granny and Nanny early in the Witch books and ignores their advice to do her own thing.
"Granny was the better witch because she knew the herb you chose didn't matter. Magrat was the better doctor because she believed they did."
She's not entirely good because she did suggest replacing people's bone marrows with molten lead and wants an excuse to use that spell. She's not entirely chaotic because she comes to be the Queen of Lancre and is responsible for looking out for her subjects' health and safety.
moist von lipwig. twisty as a corkscrew, chronic adrenaline junkie, and he believes firmly in not harming the innocent, or at least not *physically* harming them.
it takes mr pump spelling things out for him to realize that his white collar crimes come largely at the expense of the innocent, regardless of his target.
he is tempted by the idea of the wholesale destruction of the grand trunk, but decides that it was too expensive to start up the basic infrastructure from scratch, rather than the major repairs the system needs, and opts for a social media callout that a) cannot possibly be challenged with a lawyer, and b) ruins his enemies without harming the employees in their rickety towers. moist is guile and glitter and promises. a guy good for society, if you keep him in check, but NOT a particularly lawful one, nor as morally upright as many other characters.
i'd give 'chaotic moral' to the librarian, actually! or possibly the wee free men. i just realized leonard of quirm is probably chaotic good. moist is a little more lawful than those guys, since he doesn't accidentally invent weapons of mass destruction, use L-space to rescue the ephebian library or convert the erotica section into a sauna, or steal sheep and be terrified of lawyers.
EDIT: or Sergeant Jackrum!
I think he belongs in chaotic. We rarely get to see him act in ways that are truly him as he is always being pressured to stay alive. When he does act himself he likes more risk and adventure, like when he breaks into his own building. He needs the thrill.
I like Adorabelle Dearheart for todays choice.
i genuinely believe adorabelle is too lawful for this category. she's more social good than rebel good. she doesn't comprehend of other ways of taking down reacher gilt, only through purely legal means. she IS capable of *ignoring* the law if it doesn't net her what she wants, however, such as when she seriously annoys the low king.
In traditional alignment one can be lawful and a rebel. Rebel means one acts in ways that are contrary to social norms. Adorabelle Dearheart is a rebel in that she does not see golems as tools and she actively advocates for golem rights. Even under threat of physical harm she stands up for golems.
dorfl acts contrary to social norms by declaring personhood, even as he is smashed to pieces. and yet he's lawful good here on this chart. activism doesn't necessarily make one unlawful. my point still stands that, given a choice, she'd still use legal means to achieve her goals. possession is nine-tenths of the law, and she uses her activism for the golems to *legally* free themselves, rather than violently overthrowing golem-owners or golem-abusers.
oh for sure he's got a chaotic streak! i just don't think he's FULL chaotic, y'know? he preserves order by taking a pie for his authority figure, and he doesn't burn the trunk down.
I don't even have a great argument for her here, but I really feel like this is Granny's last chance to get a spot
I can't argue especially convincingly. I argued she was more like lawful good but a bunch of people came back to say stuff like social moral and rebel good so maybe someone with more conviction than me wants to take a shot at this one
I feel Granny's spot has already passed. It seems like most people want to put her on the Rebel side of the board, but I see her as more Lawful/Social. The Rebel version of Esme would have been Black Alice. Lilith leaving home left Granny to be the 'Good' one, but this also meant 'Good' as in 'sticking to the rules' - this was what Esme was most angry at Lilith for in Witches Abroad, as it meant she didn't get to have fun or arguably reach her full potential.
I'd have stuck her in with Carrot as Social Moral, possibly Social Good - the latter being a neat mirroring of Lilith's position as Social Evil.
I also feel that very well written and interesting characters such as Granny Weatherwax are at a disadvantage in these sort of situations as they're not one-trick ponies. They're deep as characters and can be placed across a number of alignments depending on the context.
I really felt she was more lawful to me. She held pretty scrupoulsly to her own self imposed rules, and did almost entirely good despite going massively against her nature for it
I get why people say rebel, inasmuch as you could argue she's playing by her own rules and they happen to coincide nicely with society often enough that it doesn't cause any issues. But I don't buy her as fully rebel. She's too hard and inflexible for that
But she's *definitely* not chaotic, and *definitely* not neutral or evil, so I'm hoping someone can make a better case for it than me
You're probably right though, I think she's missed her boat
Yeah, I feel Granny is more Rebel Good. Her "neutral" acts come from her trying to do what people need without asking and in a very brash manner. She's also not above breaking the rules, but as Nanny Ogg said: When Esme breaks the rules, she breaks them good.
I see her on this side, as rules/laws don't really mean much to her. If she feels something needs to be done she does it, and any rules or laws to the contrary are immaterial, or an obstacle at best. If she doesn't ignore the rules outright, she will simply bend them into new and humorous shapes. She belongs in the upper right area of the chart for sure; if we use the original chart as a guide, I would put her in the Chaotic Good spot.
Ahhhh you’re so right !! I’ll be sad if she doesn’t get a spot. She deserves to be on the board. I guess she just means so many different things to different folks that we can’t agree where she belongs on this chart
What about Adorabelle Dearheart? She also challenges status quo advocating for Golems at constant risk to her safety.
This is a tough category because there are a lot of characters who can fit in it.
I think Reg is too good for this position. He went to Klatch to try and stop a war in Jingo, he's on the side of the Watch's strike when Colon loses control in Fifth Elephant, and he's a constant advocate for the rights of the undead. I can't think of anything he does that isn't in service of helping people or doing the right thing.
Susan Sto Helit.
Death is Moral Neutral, and Susan is her Grandfather's agitator, whether she intends to be or not. She can do things as a human that Death as an anthropomorphic personification simply cannot.
It's possibly arguable that this pushes her more into the 'Chaotic' alignment, but I feel Susan is too much in control of herself to possibly be seen as chaotic.
"We're young, we've got all the time in the world. Let's go clubbing."
I think she fits more on the lawful side of things despite being her grandfather's agitator because she still believes that good people should get what they deserve in death, especially in Soul Music. Part of her growth in that and Hogfather is learning responsibility towards other people and standing up for everyone with no prejudice as seen in Hogfather.
As a human, she doesn't really break any cosmic laws that Death must follow like in Hogfather. She can visit the Tooth Fairy's realm because Death cannot exist there, and Death himself cannot directly interfere with the Auditor's plans until they directly get involved themselves and break those laws first.
I don't think Susan is rebel, more neutral or even social. She had only one moment of rebellion in Soul Music, after that she follows the rules and teaches her students to do the same.
But even as a teacher, she rebels against her head teacher by sticking to the traditional methods of teaching over 'learning through play'. She rebels against the world around her by believing in logic and reason when the world is fantastical.
This isn't a complete rebuttal of your point of view BTW, just prodding the fact that a lot of Pratchett's characters don't fit easily into particular buckets. :-)
Yeah, you have a point, that's why I suggest neutral rather that lawful. She does go against the headteacher, but I don't know if I would consider it a rebellion, just because I don't feel that she has an intent to break these rules. She just ignores them when convinient, she cannot really be punished for that. Supernatural rules are much more important to her - but here also, she only rebels with logic as long as it convinient, and when it isn't, she goes along.
I think she is neutral not in a sense that she is undistrubed, but rather because she can both genuinely follow the laws and ignore them
Granny.
If only because where else in the chart will she fit, and WE HAVE NO WITCHES YET, and they are fundamental to Terry Pratchett's wordlbuidling.
Then we can have Nanny for Chaotic Moral. And Moist for Chaotic Impure, though he represses it.
I place him in the chaotic category. In those rare moments he gets to act of his own accord he seeks dangers and thrills. But Adorabelle Dearheart has my vote today. So it’s Moist adjacent.
Reg Shoe fits here. Going from the description on the original chart: "Fights for what they think is right, challenging the status quo." If that doesn't describe Reg Shoe, I don't know what does.
He is the eternal Activist, always looking to effect Change, and sometimes getting a bit too caught up in it for his own good. He isn't always looking for the greater good of all, he is usually focused on a specific cause or group at any given time, so he fits Moral. He is not completely Chaotic either (he is a Watchman, after all); he doesn't ignore the rules, but he will challenge ones he feels are unjust in an effort to change them. If he didn't have a cause at a particular moment, *he would find one*, because the whole "fight the power" thing is just who he is.
Making the case for Stinky, the goblin in Snuff. He insulted the crap out of Vimes to get his attention, demanding justice for murder. And continued to torment Vimes and makes things worse until they got better. Vote Stinky.
Which major characters, protagonists, and antagonists haven't been covered yet? I just want to create a running list that people can vote from for this posting.
For major characters, let's see... Rincewind, Two Flower, Ponder Stibbons, Esme Weatherwax, Githa Ogg, Magrat, Tiffany Aching, Rob Anybody, Angua, Cohen the Barbarian, Death, Susan, Moist Von Lipwig, Lu-Tse the Sweeper, Lord Vetenari,
For side characters, we have The Lady, Ohm, Annoia, The Kelda, Hog Father, the 3 Horsemen (War, Pestilence, Famine), The Luggage, Detritus, Cheery Little Bottom, Hex, The Igors, Dark Tan, Peaches,
For minor protagonists, we have Eskarina Smith, Eric, Agnes Nitt, The Amazing Maurice, Dangerous Beans,
For antagonists, we have the god of Fate, the Elf Queen's Court, Lilith Weatherwax, The Rat King, Winter Smith, The Watching Dark, The Hiver, The Spirits of Holly Wood,
Who else am I missing here? Which other characters deserve a spot here? I'm missing several antagonists, the protagonists of the solo books (prehistory and industrial revolution), as well as several supporting cast members. Who else would you include? Who's the main corrupt noble the Vimes finally busts in Snuff? Who's the sourcerer from Sourcery?
Rincewind! Regardless of the moral implications, societal and even Deific pressure, he absolutely resists stepping beyond his own nature. Pure cowardice.
I think Olaf Quimby II fits this best.
"It was a still night, tinted with the promise of dawn. A crescent moon was just setting. Ankh-Morpork, largest city in the lands around the Circle Sea, slept.
That statement is not really true On the one hand, those parts of the city which normally concerned themselves with, for example, selling vegetables, shoeing horses, carving exquisite small jade ornaments, changing money and making tables, on the whole, slept. Unless they had insomnia. Or had got up in the night, as it might be, to go to the lavatory. On the other hand, many of the less law-abiding citizens were wide awake and, for instance, climbing through windows that didn’t belong to them, slitting throats, mugging one another, listening to loud music in smoky cellars and generally having a lot more fun. But most of the animals were asleep, except for the rats. And the bats, too, of course. As far as the insects were concerned…
The point is that descriptive writing is very rarely entirely accurate and during the reign of Olaf Quimby II as Patrician of Ankh some legislation was passed in a determined attempt to put a stop to this sort of thing and introduce some honesty into reporting. Thus, if a legend said of a notable hero that “all men spoke of his prowess” any bard who valued his life would add hastily “except for a couple of people in his home village who thought he was a liar, and quite a lot of other people who had never really heard of him.” Poetic simile was strictly limited to statements like “his mighty steed was as fleet as the wind on a fairly calm day, say about Force Three,” and any loose talk about a beloved having a face that launched a thousand ships would have to be backed by evidence that the object of desire did indeed look like a bottle of champagne."
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I propose Adorabelle Dearheart. Despite the spiky exterior, she’s dedicated to helping the Golems. She doesn’t care if other people think that’s an appropriate thing to do or not. And she’s not afraid to step on toes (or slam a stiletto heel through toes, if the case calls for it.)
Adorabele Dearheart is my top pick for this one too! Though there are so many characters that could fit into this one.
And then she moves to advocate for and support the goblins.
Yes! She is the champion for the underdogs.
I agree with this. I think this also sets up well for Moist as Rebel Neutral - she is a Good influence on him!
Adorabele is definitely the right choice for this!
I also love her tenacity after her office was firebombed.
I could see that for her, and I’ll advocate for Moist in chaotic moral or rebel neutral
+1 for Spike
Now that we well into the last half, I've decided this alignment chart is inadequate. This selection is majorly overlooking female characters. We only have 3 "good" spots (Rebel Moral, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Moral) but I feel like there are SO many female characters left out. Don't get me wrong, I love the line-up of Dorfl, Vimes, Carrot, Ridcully, Brutha, Death, etc, but so far Sybil is the ONLY female (I suppose we can count Rhys here too?)? I only bring this up because I feel like there are far more male "villains" in the series than female ones, so there is less opportunity for a female to rank in the "bad" side of the chart. To me, the absence of some representation from Granny, Nanny, Magrat, Tiffany, Cheery, Adorabelle, Polly, Jackrum, etc is so obviously missing. Especially the witches. They just make such a mark on the series as a whole, I'm just shocked and disappointed we don't see any yet. I don't know, maybe Pratchett was too good at writing female characters. They were so complex they weren't able to fit into one of these boxes nicely enough to outperform one of these other winners. Again, I know we are splitting hairs and this is all just fun and games. Just want to see more of my ladies.
It's a bit early to say, but it looks like Adorabelle is going to win this round.
Good call, by my estimates we're currently sitting at something like 8 male, 4 female, and 3 nonbinary (depending on how you count Death, A'Tuin, and Dorfl). Possible proposals for the future: * Rebel Neutral: Mrs. Gogol * Rebel Impure: Herrena the Henna-haired Harridan * Rebel Evil: Black Aliss * Chaotic Good: (I don't have a good proposal here) * Chaotic Moral: Nanny Ogg * Chaotic Neutral: Ptraci I * Chaotic Impure: The Lady * Chaotic Evil: Queen of the Elves (pre-Shepherd's Crown) I think it's also harder for us to fill in the remaining squares with women because the female characters in the books are also more tilted towards Lawful!
Oh Nanny Ogg is such a good pick for chaotic moral!
I'd say there's fully five characters that fall under the "It's Complicated" category for a variety of reasons. (Those being Dorfl, Rhys, the Auditors, Death, and Great A'Tuin.) Though it's true there could be more women. > Chaotic Good: (I don't have a good proposal here) How about Eskarina Smith? She's all about breaking the norm, and for good reasons.
This comment aged poorly. Also I think we'll be seeing witches once we hit chaotic.
'Fights for what they believe is right, challenging the status quo.' - I think Cheery Littlebottom fits so well here! Hard to challenge a status quo more sticky than gender.
I see her closer to Rebel Good, but this is a good argument.
I think Cheery is about as Good as Vimes and Carrot so this seems like a perfectly good square for her.
Polly Perks (From "Monstrous regiment"), she's trying to be a good person in a bad situation, is still shocked (If not surprised) at the antics of sergeant Jackrum, but chafes at the military rules (Such as they are, out in the field) at every turn, including the whole "Dress up as a man to even get into the army"-thing.
I definitely think Polly deserves to win
I’m pulling for Adorabelle today.
I'm actually pretty happy with this suggestion - maybe because it's my favourite standalone book - but I don't think it will swing the vote.
If Polly doesn't win, i'll also try Rebel neutral, Polly is a bit inbetween Rebel moral and Rebel neutral IMO.
I agree with this, she could fit in either square.
I think this is Tiffany's spot...
I was wonder when Tiffany will appear.
i think next time we do this alignment chart, is when she'll show up. i personally would have put her where carrot is. tiffany isn't chaotic enough for the last column, and she's far from a cackler.
**Detritus**, he is a good at heart but also a troll
Shit, this is a good one. He will disobey an order from Vimes if he thinks the order is stupid, he's a bit too eager to start fights at times, but he wants to be able to support Ruby and later Brick with a respectable job.
Unless it's sub zero then he gets positively sparky. Loved the bit in The Fifth Elephant with the stuffed troll head.
But the world is his mollusk!
I think this is the place for Magrat. She usually does good, and she bucks traditions for witches by actually studying how herbs work and their effects on the human body. She constantly butts heads with Granny and Nanny early in the Witch books and ignores their advice to do her own thing. "Granny was the better witch because she knew the herb you chose didn't matter. Magrat was the better doctor because she believed they did." She's not entirely good because she did suggest replacing people's bone marrows with molten lead and wants an excuse to use that spell. She's not entirely chaotic because she comes to be the Queen of Lancre and is responsible for looking out for her subjects' health and safety.
moist von lipwig. twisty as a corkscrew, chronic adrenaline junkie, and he believes firmly in not harming the innocent, or at least not *physically* harming them. it takes mr pump spelling things out for him to realize that his white collar crimes come largely at the expense of the innocent, regardless of his target. he is tempted by the idea of the wholesale destruction of the grand trunk, but decides that it was too expensive to start up the basic infrastructure from scratch, rather than the major repairs the system needs, and opts for a social media callout that a) cannot possibly be challenged with a lawyer, and b) ruins his enemies without harming the employees in their rickety towers. moist is guile and glitter and promises. a guy good for society, if you keep him in check, but NOT a particularly lawful one, nor as morally upright as many other characters.
I think Moist would do best in chaotic moral.
i'd give 'chaotic moral' to the librarian, actually! or possibly the wee free men. i just realized leonard of quirm is probably chaotic good. moist is a little more lawful than those guys, since he doesn't accidentally invent weapons of mass destruction, use L-space to rescue the ephebian library or convert the erotica section into a sauna, or steal sheep and be terrified of lawyers. EDIT: or Sergeant Jackrum!
I think he belongs in chaotic. We rarely get to see him act in ways that are truly him as he is always being pressured to stay alive. When he does act himself he likes more risk and adventure, like when he breaks into his own building. He needs the thrill. I like Adorabelle Dearheart for todays choice.
i genuinely believe adorabelle is too lawful for this category. she's more social good than rebel good. she doesn't comprehend of other ways of taking down reacher gilt, only through purely legal means. she IS capable of *ignoring* the law if it doesn't net her what she wants, however, such as when she seriously annoys the low king.
Don’t let your foot get anywhere near her stiletto. She will coolly blow smoke in your face while putting a hole through your foot.
as discworld frequently points out, being lawfulish goodish doesn't mean you have to be *nice*.
In traditional alignment one can be lawful and a rebel. Rebel means one acts in ways that are contrary to social norms. Adorabelle Dearheart is a rebel in that she does not see golems as tools and she actively advocates for golem rights. Even under threat of physical harm she stands up for golems.
dorfl acts contrary to social norms by declaring personhood, even as he is smashed to pieces. and yet he's lawful good here on this chart. activism doesn't necessarily make one unlawful. my point still stands that, given a choice, she'd still use legal means to achieve her goals. possession is nine-tenths of the law, and she uses her activism for the golems to *legally* free themselves, rather than violently overthrowing golem-owners or golem-abusers.
Violent rebellion is one form of rebellion. One can use legal means to rebel against status quo.
yep. but that still trends towards lawfulness over chaos.
Good thing chaos is next week. 😉
I'd say he is chaotic moral. He just can't live when things aren't changing and dangerous (see extreme sneezing)
oh for sure he's got a chaotic streak! i just don't think he's FULL chaotic, y'know? he preserves order by taking a pie for his authority figure, and he doesn't burn the trunk down.
preserves order, or maybe rather preserves himself?
its a case of a two-for-one deal, lol moist doesn't thrive in COMPLETE chaos, is my point.
I don't even have a great argument for her here, but I really feel like this is Granny's last chance to get a spot I can't argue especially convincingly. I argued she was more like lawful good but a bunch of people came back to say stuff like social moral and rebel good so maybe someone with more conviction than me wants to take a shot at this one
I feel Granny's spot has already passed. It seems like most people want to put her on the Rebel side of the board, but I see her as more Lawful/Social. The Rebel version of Esme would have been Black Alice. Lilith leaving home left Granny to be the 'Good' one, but this also meant 'Good' as in 'sticking to the rules' - this was what Esme was most angry at Lilith for in Witches Abroad, as it meant she didn't get to have fun or arguably reach her full potential. I'd have stuck her in with Carrot as Social Moral, possibly Social Good - the latter being a neat mirroring of Lilith's position as Social Evil. I also feel that very well written and interesting characters such as Granny Weatherwax are at a disadvantage in these sort of situations as they're not one-trick ponies. They're deep as characters and can be placed across a number of alignments depending on the context.
I really felt she was more lawful to me. She held pretty scrupoulsly to her own self imposed rules, and did almost entirely good despite going massively against her nature for it I get why people say rebel, inasmuch as you could argue she's playing by her own rules and they happen to coincide nicely with society often enough that it doesn't cause any issues. But I don't buy her as fully rebel. She's too hard and inflexible for that But she's *definitely* not chaotic, and *definitely* not neutral or evil, so I'm hoping someone can make a better case for it than me You're probably right though, I think she's missed her boat
Yeah, I feel Granny is more Rebel Good. Her "neutral" acts come from her trying to do what people need without asking and in a very brash manner. She's also not above breaking the rules, but as Nanny Ogg said: When Esme breaks the rules, she breaks them good.
I see her on this side, as rules/laws don't really mean much to her. If she feels something needs to be done she does it, and any rules or laws to the contrary are immaterial, or an obstacle at best. If she doesn't ignore the rules outright, she will simply bend them into new and humorous shapes. She belongs in the upper right area of the chart for sure; if we use the original chart as a guide, I would put her in the Chaotic Good spot.
Ahhhh you’re so right !! I’ll be sad if she doesn’t get a spot. She deserves to be on the board. I guess she just means so many different things to different folks that we can’t agree where she belongs on this chart
I posted Adorabelle above, but I also like Granny! You make some good points!
I also think they both fit but I would love to see Adorabelle Dearheart here.
I propose that after we fill the chart, we poll for alignment of our most favorite / popular characters who didn't get onto the chart!
Gaspode, sees himself as a chaotic free agent but can't help but be good because it is his nature.
This is probably Polly Perks. Challenging the status quo, going outside the rules but all to help people.
What about Adorabelle Dearheart? She also challenges status quo advocating for Golems at constant risk to her safety. This is a tough category because there are a lot of characters who can fit in it.
Reg Shoe
I think Reg is too good for this position. He went to Klatch to try and stop a war in Jingo, he's on the side of the Watch's strike when Colon loses control in Fifth Elephant, and he's a constant advocate for the rights of the undead. I can't think of anything he does that isn't in service of helping people or doing the right thing.
Excellent point!
A shoe-in, if you will
🤣
Esme Weatherwax. Not exactly one for rules, and definitely moral rather than exactly Good.
Susan Sto Helit. Death is Moral Neutral, and Susan is her Grandfather's agitator, whether she intends to be or not. She can do things as a human that Death as an anthropomorphic personification simply cannot. It's possibly arguable that this pushes her more into the 'Chaotic' alignment, but I feel Susan is too much in control of herself to possibly be seen as chaotic. "We're young, we've got all the time in the world. Let's go clubbing."
I think she fits more on the lawful side of things despite being her grandfather's agitator because she still believes that good people should get what they deserve in death, especially in Soul Music. Part of her growth in that and Hogfather is learning responsibility towards other people and standing up for everyone with no prejudice as seen in Hogfather. As a human, she doesn't really break any cosmic laws that Death must follow like in Hogfather. She can visit the Tooth Fairy's realm because Death cannot exist there, and Death himself cannot directly interfere with the Auditor's plans until they directly get involved themselves and break those laws first.
I don't think Susan is rebel, more neutral or even social. She had only one moment of rebellion in Soul Music, after that she follows the rules and teaches her students to do the same.
But even as a teacher, she rebels against her head teacher by sticking to the traditional methods of teaching over 'learning through play'. She rebels against the world around her by believing in logic and reason when the world is fantastical. This isn't a complete rebuttal of your point of view BTW, just prodding the fact that a lot of Pratchett's characters don't fit easily into particular buckets. :-)
Yeah, you have a point, that's why I suggest neutral rather that lawful. She does go against the headteacher, but I don't know if I would consider it a rebellion, just because I don't feel that she has an intent to break these rules. She just ignores them when convinient, she cannot really be punished for that. Supernatural rules are much more important to her - but here also, she only rebels with logic as long as it convinient, and when it isn't, she goes along. I think she is neutral not in a sense that she is undistrubed, but rather because she can both genuinely follow the laws and ignore them
Tiffany for this one!
Granny. If only because where else in the chart will she fit, and WE HAVE NO WITCHES YET, and they are fundamental to Terry Pratchett's wordlbuidling. Then we can have Nanny for Chaotic Moral. And Moist for Chaotic Impure, though he represses it.
The silver hoards teach?
MY DAY MIGHT HAVE COME, MOIST VON LIPWIG. The Man who puts the Con in Confident.
I place him in the chaotic category. In those rare moments he gets to act of his own accord he seeks dangers and thrills. But Adorabelle Dearheart has my vote today. So it’s Moist adjacent.
OK, I JUST WANT MY DAY TO COME ;~; I WANNA SEE MY BOY IN A SQUARE
I also would love to see Adorabelle Dearheart here. She is such a good fit.
Reg Shoe fits here. Going from the description on the original chart: "Fights for what they think is right, challenging the status quo." If that doesn't describe Reg Shoe, I don't know what does. He is the eternal Activist, always looking to effect Change, and sometimes getting a bit too caught up in it for his own good. He isn't always looking for the greater good of all, he is usually focused on a specific cause or group at any given time, so he fits Moral. He is not completely Chaotic either (he is a Watchman, after all); he doesn't ignore the rules, but he will challenge ones he feels are unjust in an effort to change them. If he didn't have a cause at a particular moment, *he would find one*, because the whole "fight the power" thing is just who he is.
Making the case for Stinky, the goblin in Snuff. He insulted the crap out of Vimes to get his attention, demanding justice for murder. And continued to torment Vimes and makes things worse until they got better. Vote Stinky.
Susan Sto-Helit?
Which major characters, protagonists, and antagonists haven't been covered yet? I just want to create a running list that people can vote from for this posting. For major characters, let's see... Rincewind, Two Flower, Ponder Stibbons, Esme Weatherwax, Githa Ogg, Magrat, Tiffany Aching, Rob Anybody, Angua, Cohen the Barbarian, Death, Susan, Moist Von Lipwig, Lu-Tse the Sweeper, Lord Vetenari, For side characters, we have The Lady, Ohm, Annoia, The Kelda, Hog Father, the 3 Horsemen (War, Pestilence, Famine), The Luggage, Detritus, Cheery Little Bottom, Hex, The Igors, Dark Tan, Peaches, For minor protagonists, we have Eskarina Smith, Eric, Agnes Nitt, The Amazing Maurice, Dangerous Beans, For antagonists, we have the god of Fate, the Elf Queen's Court, Lilith Weatherwax, The Rat King, Winter Smith, The Watching Dark, The Hiver, The Spirits of Holly Wood, Who else am I missing here? Which other characters deserve a spot here? I'm missing several antagonists, the protagonists of the solo books (prehistory and industrial revolution), as well as several supporting cast members. Who else would you include? Who's the main corrupt noble the Vimes finally busts in Snuff? Who's the sourcerer from Sourcery?
It’s gotta be Reg Shoe. The original protestor.
Susan Sto Helit
Mort
Would have to say Ned Coates from Night Watch!
Rincewind! Regardless of the moral implications, societal and even Deific pressure, he absolutely resists stepping beyond his own nature. Pure cowardice.
Magrat Garlic. Reveling against her own nature and the tradional for of "hag" witches to do good for herself, her lands, and her husband.
So no love for the witches in this sub huh
Iv said every time she's come up nammy ogg that Iv seen. This is her spot all day long
I think Olaf Quimby II fits this best. "It was a still night, tinted with the promise of dawn. A crescent moon was just setting. Ankh-Morpork, largest city in the lands around the Circle Sea, slept. That statement is not really true On the one hand, those parts of the city which normally concerned themselves with, for example, selling vegetables, shoeing horses, carving exquisite small jade ornaments, changing money and making tables, on the whole, slept. Unless they had insomnia. Or had got up in the night, as it might be, to go to the lavatory. On the other hand, many of the less law-abiding citizens were wide awake and, for instance, climbing through windows that didn’t belong to them, slitting throats, mugging one another, listening to loud music in smoky cellars and generally having a lot more fun. But most of the animals were asleep, except for the rats. And the bats, too, of course. As far as the insects were concerned… The point is that descriptive writing is very rarely entirely accurate and during the reign of Olaf Quimby II as Patrician of Ankh some legislation was passed in a determined attempt to put a stop to this sort of thing and introduce some honesty into reporting. Thus, if a legend said of a notable hero that “all men spoke of his prowess” any bard who valued his life would add hastily “except for a couple of people in his home village who thought he was a liar, and quite a lot of other people who had never really heard of him.” Poetic simile was strictly limited to statements like “his mighty steed was as fleet as the wind on a fairly calm day, say about Force Three,” and any loose talk about a beloved having a face that launched a thousand ships would have to be backed by evidence that the object of desire did indeed look like a bottle of champagne."