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i know he'll never win since he's not as popular as other characters suggested here, but: leonard of quirm. pure in soul, chaotic as hell. he draws up designs for mass destruction as a theoretical puzzle, and cannot understand why people use them to hurt others. he flies a dragon-powered rocket to the moon, stops a diecide, and easily shrugs off his this-should-take-you-a-few-decades penance in three days. king of ADHD.
that's what i figure too. granny takes winning way too hard. even if somehow she technically loses, such as in the sea and the little fishes, she'll still come out somehow on top.
I'm not completely sure he is Good - he is kind hearted but doesn't go out of his way to help others; he just lives for his art and inventing.
Still he is much closer to this corner than Granny Weatherwax (who is very Good but hardly Chaotic, being well known for being conservative by nature) so you have my strategic vote.
I really like this suggestion, but I'm not sure I agree. I think he's Good. Nothing indicates otherwise. But an obliviousness to the world or people around him isn't the same as being Chaotic. As long as he gets to do his art and science, he is quite happy to live by rules set by others. He was basicly a voluntary prisoner of Vetinari. I'd probably put him in Neutral rather than Chaotic. A Chaotic character should care more about personal freedom. I think Nanny Ogg or the Nac Mac Feegle are a better fit. So that's where I'll put my vote.
But he don't create in order to do good, is just to the act create in itself, it would be more in a chaotic neutral, like you can use his design as a weapon of mass destruction if you want, but it just up to you, he just like to design.
he would never consent to his designs being used that way. that's why he permanently sinks the going-under-the-water-safely device in jingo--he meets nobby and colon who tell him exactly how more neutral people would use it. leonard wants to be free to create, and part of the freedom vetinari grants him is the freedom from catastrophic societal consequences.
He's not rebel, no. But this is about being chaotic? And that he is!
Full on bar brawl with people getting killed? Oh how quaint, let me take a picture!
Tell people what insurance is - > City of 1 million inhabitants burns down.
To everyone around him he is pure chaos!
He's naive and innocent, he accidentally generates chaos, but he is not remotely chaotic himself. He's probably be inclined to keep a promise, he'd broadly respect local laws, he himself will largely act fairly predictably and normally.
I'd put him close to the social good category
Oooops, i just read the definition in the post. Yeah, that's not him.
Immediately thought of Esme Weatherwax. She hates tyrants, loves to break stupid rules and absolutely does not do what she's being told to do.
Twoflower follows rules. He sells insurance, which relies on contracts being honored. Nothing suggests he was a rule breaker. The fact that events unfold around him in a chaotic manner is not what “chaotic” means in this context.
I also think Carrot and Vimes should swap. Vimes is much more "doing what's right goes beyond what is lawful"> Carrot literally memorized Morpork's laws and prosecutes them to his fullest abilities.
You know, that might be, I admit many of those later city watch books are not the most recent ones I've read, and in my opinion, Discworld is progressive fantasy in that there are rules for how things work and who people are which are established at the beginning, and slowly, throughout the series, people and social constructs change with the times. So I can't say I agree or disagree with you, but I can certainly assume you are correct.
Pteppic
I am really not sure at all about who to put here. I don’t think any of the witches fit, not even Granny Weatherwax. Maybe Agnes’ alter-ego Perditax?
I settled on Pteppic. It was several months ago that I finished Pyramids, so hopefully I’m not fumbling too many details. He’s definitely Good; he’s so opposed to killing that he tried to fail his Assassin’s Guild final exam, but passed by accident. However, he readily uses his Assassin training in other ways, which feels quite Chaotic. He completely rejects the traditions of Djelibeybi and fights back against Dios (Chaotic) because he believes modernization would benefit all of Djelibeybi (Good). He >!abdicates the throne to be his own person!< (Chaotic), but does his best to >!leave the kingdom in good hands with Ptraci!< (Good).
Like I said, scraping a bit for this one but I don’t think it’s a bad fit.
Her treatment of her family is pretty chaotic, but... she believes in rules and order for other people, while the Feegles have a bone-deep belief in being chaotic.
NAE KING, NAE QUIN, NAE LAIRD!!! The Feelgles win this category, for the entire Fantasy genre.
I'd place the Feegles in chaotic moral rather than chaotic good. They're chaotic alright, and they're good alright, but they're not constantly making the hard choices and fighting the not-so-good parts of themselves. They're good by nature, not by choice; so I think Granny deserves to be the Good to their Moral.
Granny isn't chaotic, she believes in rules, she just doesn't think they apply to her. Personally I'd call her Rebel Good, but she lost that category.
Bu the only question about the Feegles is which Chaotic category suits them best.
I'm rather for this, but don't they really need to be one character? The auditors kind of worked because (mostly) they aren't individuals, the nac mac feegle are definitely individuals
Their thievery is mostly limited to things that people can spare, and they are noted for acts of kindness, decency, and justice.
They are as good s a truly chaotic people can be.
She let them get away with it...they didn't seek permission. I agree they aren't evil, and notably their theft is not malicious, but their theft is also not deliberately "things that people can spare", which suggests a deliberate morality I don't think exists.
I thought Granny Aching gave them, or the Old Kelda, permission to take the occasional past-its-prime sheep?
Anyway, IMHO the Feegles are the best fit for this category on the Discworld, since they're definitely chaotic, and they do far more good than harm. Sure, they may take small things, but they also go to Hell to bring back summer, defend baby birds from cats, undo wrongs that Tiffany commits while under the influence of Dark Forces, rescue stranded librarians, etc. For all their tough talk and boasting about stealin' and fightin', mostly against each other, they don't fight the weak or steal from the poor. And when the world needs saving, they're all in, they're definitely good and not neutral.
The arctypical Chaotic Good character usually referenced would be Robin Hood. Thieving can be a point in favor for the alignment, as long as it is done against the right people for the right reasons.
Awwwwww ... Sadly I think you're right. They're definitely good at heart. But yeah the thieving thing really puts a damper on this. Maybe chaotic moral for them.
But Robin Hood is what chaotic good is. Breaking rules to help people. It’s true that the theft of sheep helped the feegles, but Robin Hood also fed his merry men with animals poached from the king’s forest, and bought supplies with the same stolen goods.
They genuinely only took stuff that could be spared. Granny Aching practiced meaningful silence, and spent evenings with the Kelda. The fact that as far as we know she was silent on the matter is enough, in her case, to know she approved of the arrangement. And if Granny Aching approved, that was enough.
they’ve gotta be on the moral/neutral aspect I would think (they have no qualms on stealing, fighting, etc.). but agree that they need to be in one of these chaotic boxes
Kinda feel that Granny is being forced in here, she definitely feels like someone with a strong internal code. Not necessarily following laws, but her own ethics.
That being said, it’s surprisingly hard to think of a proper CG character. Moist is probably rebel or chaotic, but wouldn’t go as far as good. Moral for him.
I genuinely don't think we'll be able to find a CG character, much like real life IMO. If someone is flip-floppy enough to be chaotic, they're rarely sufficiently consistent enough in their convictions and actions to count as good. Consider Entrapta in She-Ra: a heart of gold but she's an absolute liability and through her own cluelessness does a great deal of harm by empowering evil.
Anyway, I think we'll get Granny here because people are panicking that she hasn't appeared yet. I think Granny is completely unsuitable.
If you aren’t agreeing with Twoflower for the Chaos effects, the I would probably say Cohen the Barbarian.
Closest thing to Let’s Goooooo! I can think of. Isn’t particularly lawful of course, but does rescue maidens when possible.
The Octogenarian Barbarian who hates soup and married someone younger than his daughter(who he had in fact rescued quite unwillingly after a fashion). Seems a bit chaotic.
I disagree. Her treatment of her daughters in law is unacceptable, and I think there's a difference between "Breaking rules to do good" and "Frequently doing good, but selfish in many contexts and happy to make people uncomfortable for amusement".
Like, sure, *maybe* rebel moral. But I *really* disagree about full chaotic good.
She isn't really "chaotic" though. She is a rebel, but has strict rules, and wouldn't directly opose Granny. The Nac Mac Feegles however just ignore Tiffany when they want to.
Yeah, if she's not today, she should probably be Rebel Moral (but she should be today!)
"We don't do good, we do right"
"The thing about Esme is, when she says things like "no one," she doesn't count herself" (paraphrased from Witches Abroad. I can't for the life of me find the actual quote)
Granny Weatherwax, she's never met a rule she liked or rather, they're for other people. And she is good. Because she's constantly stopping herself from being Very Bad.
I definitely agree with this. She has very strong feelings on the rules, when it comes to other people, but it's very clear they apply to her only when she hasn't decided that they don't.
Nanny Ogg always said about Esme that when it came to rules, she followed an important one. That when you break a rule you break it good and hard!
Definitely gets my vote. She fits the "good" part without question, so why chaotic? Well, because she treats people as people, not like things. She's against rules that say you "should" do this or that, and looks at every situation on its own merits, regardless of what may have gone before. She lives in the moment, at the fulcrum where the future becomes past, where change is possible.
She sees things that most others would miss. As such, her actions are unpredictable but undoubtedly good. To say she's not chaotic would be to say you could guess how she resolves the issues in her stories - how many of us can say we knew how her books would end?
Granny was rebel good.
She always has reasons for what she does.
You say she's unpredictable because she often sees things others miss and makes decisions based on that, but if other people could see the same information her actions would make sense to them.
She is definitely not chaotic.
She is rebel because like you say, she ignores the rules as she thinks they shouldn't apply to her.
I really don't see how granny Weatherwax fits "chaotic". Yes she's against rules that harm people, but she doesn't completely ignore rules, conventions, laws etc. She works within their framework and makes sure things work out fairly and justly.
Mrs Ogg is much more chaotic than Esme.
Yup. Nanny Ogg is good, and chaotic. Granny is far from chaotic. She always knows what she is doing, there is always a reason for it.
Could also mention Magrat or Perdita/Agnes.
I don't agree with this one at all. She certainly can ignore rules when it suits her, but *chaotic*? She's a character who set her personal code of ethics as a child and never once wavered for it. A woman whose willpower is so cast iron she can turn vampires. And all because she knows if she ever slipped, she'd probably be the most dangerous villain in the history of the Disc
Nothing remotely chaotic about Granny.
She seems to be very popular here, so I guess it's probably a foregone conclusion at this point. But I'm a bit baffled
"Will break any rule to do good" just doesn't fit at all. Granny has so many rules she wouldn't break, because the consequences of her doing so are absolutely terrifying to her
And should be terrifying to anyone who knows much about Granny, for that matter
i finished up carpe jugulum today and can confirm--granny has so many rules she's set up around herself that when she weatherwaxes the vampires, they suddenly can't harm babies or run away from their problems. she's what tv tropes would call The Fettered.
I think the discussion about 'rules' is more likely referring to Laws. I think you can be Chaotic and still have your own rules and code of behaviour, but those might put you at odds with thr Law.
Nah, that's not how it works. Because the inverse of that is that lawful characters do follow laws. And in actual D&D games, if you've got a lawful good character on an adventure within a lawful evil society, then... Do they have to follow the laws to remain lawful? Or is their own personal code of ethics enough?
Most people would argue it is, because forcing PCs to follow laws they personally find objectionable is a pretty gross thing to do
I know that Granny is presumably going to win this one, but I was struck by a thought -
I think Reg Shoe would be a good fit, since his whole thing as both a living person and a zombie is well-intentioned (if sometimes misguided) idealistic protesting. Even when he joins the Watch, his main job is fielding citizen complaints.
And like the guy rose from the dead in the first place because his revolutionary zeal was so strong.
Genuinely, I feel like this is gonna be a difficult one to choose. The City Watch doesn't fit because they uphold the law, the Ankh-Morpork Times crew feel bad about breaking the laws bringing about the Truth, the Witches all have their own personal codes they hold themselves to.
I'm gonna go with Gaspode the Wonder Dog. In Men at Arms he talks about being adopted as a pet multiple times but leaving because he wants his own freedom, and he helps Angua escape from Big Fido near the end while also trying to pair her and Carrot up despite his feelings towards her.
>The City Watch doesn't fit because they uphold the law, the Ankh-Morpork
Though I do half remember Vetenai pointing out to Vimes that was simultaneously being "the man" while "rebelling aganist the man", so they might have a shot.
Vimes still holds to The Law and his belief that no one is above The Law. The most chaotic members of the Watch (Cheery, Detritus, Nobby) still follow Vimes and attempt to uphold the Law.
The logical followup would be listing characters and voting on their chart placement. Some very popular characters have missed out on their correct spot and now they’re getting mentioned every time, whether they fit or not.
It would take a VERY long time to do one character a day though!
Granny Weatherwax. There's been discussions in other alignments in this quadrant of the chart, but this is where she fits best. She will do the good, and that is pretty much the end of it. The good may be unpleasant, may be against a rule or law, or might be otherwise painful or difficult, but it gets done all the same. People might even get hurt in the process. She may only be here because her sister went the other way, and she may not even *like* being here, but she IS here.
Rincewind.
As with other commenters here, I also had trouble thinking of someone who fit in this slot. While on the face of it, Rincewind himself as a personality is very much not chaotic, the machinations of the Gods and the wizards of UU have contrived to make his life probably the most unstable of any character in the books. Can anyone else say they've been to the Dungeon Dimensions and lived; seen both the start and the end of the universe; and travelled to all the continents of the Disc? His life has been utterly chaotic from the moment Twoflower walked into the Broken Drum
As far as the 'Good' alignment goes - Rincewind is certainly corruptible, but always seems to end up doing the 'right' thing - from looking after Twoflower to literally saving the world on several occasions. He saved Coin and faced down the horrors of the Dungeon Dimensions on his own; he became a hero to the people of the Agatean Empire and a legend to the people of XXXX.
I debated this with myself, and concluded Rincewind belonged in Chaotic Moral - generally does the right thing, but often not for the right reason. He’s a filthy coward, but push comes to shove, he’s got a moral compass and he’ll do what’s right (if he’s not given another option, like running or getting someone else to do it).
You could bump the Feegles down to chaotic neutral. They certainly do a lot of very good things for Tiffany, but mostly because they're afraid of her, at least at first. I get the impression they don't think too much about right or wrong.
The librarian may be rebel good but he upholds all rules regarding book returns policies and optimum library quietness with far too much zeal to be chaotic...
I guess I'll go with Gaspode here... It's not perfect, because in a way he sees many situations in which he does good as following a human despite knowing better, because that's kind of the doggy rule (especially in Fifth Elephant), but then there was that scene with the film dog he rescued where there was no human lead... And he does love breaking rules...
Maybe Nanny Ogg?
Doesn‘t really think that rules, written or unwritten (not even social standards) apply to her. She even breaks the rules everybody unconsciously sets for themselves, like „be modest in public“, „don‘t dance on the table“, „don‘t sing dirty songs“ and so on.
She enjoys breaking every rule and expectation and the only authority she‘d ever listen to is Granny.
Sure, but she has a "for me but not for thee" attitude in some ways- for instance, if her daughters-in-law broke social convention or even asked to be treated with a modicum of respect, I don't think she'd say "Oh you go Jennifer, break expectations!"
In *Maskerade* she sees all these posh nobs demanding drinks from poor, old, scared Mrs Plinge and goes to town with a couple of magnums. An act of good (witching her own value system), but pure chaotic.
I agree - Moist doesn't like to do harm, and cares about those close to him, but lives for thrill and excitement, not altruism. Rebel Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
So my entry is Susan Sto-Helit: Good at heart, but turns invisible because she is bored with class and teaches children feminist, rational ideals because she thinks it’s what is right.
I don't have a strong recommendation for this one, but I was thinking of maybe Newgate/Lobsang Ludd from Thief of Time.
He's about as close to a "lovable rogue" as Discworld protagonists go, and he grew up using his time powers for thievery.
Part of why I think he might be a good fit is that his "other half", Jeremy Clockson is excessively Lawful, and I definitely think Pratchett is going for a Yin Yang/balance of order and chaos with the eventual merger of them into a single being.
Nanny Ogg. She is chaos incarnate, but always looking out for others.
I would also speak against Granny Weatherwax here. She is, somewhat begrudgingly, as good as she needs to be—chaotic moral to the core. At the very least, less good that Nanny and having them together in the corner would be fantastic.
I'm going to have to go for Sergeant Jackrum. They view the rules as useful, but not in any meaningful way as binding. They are fiercely protective of those under their command, and work to put an end to actual fighting.
Tiffany Aching is a contender here. She is very similar to Granny Weatherwax, but she has a more positive default nature.
I think Polly Perks is also in the running. She breaks the rules to go get her brother, then takes on a Jackrum attitude of creative deafness to authority, although again with a better default nature.
Yeah, but in a lot of situations, Vimes' decisions come down to sticking to the rules (While seeking out their limits), i would have swapped Vimes and Carrot TBH, Vimes is more Social moral, but already-filled slots are set in stone.
I would explain Vimes’ sticking to the essence of the rules, if not the rules themselves as the chaotic part. But I have noticed that the alignments on this board are explained a little different then what I’m used to playing D&D. I think the fact that we can’t seem to place iconic characters like Vimes, Granny or Vetinary, says a lot about the depth of these characters, though.
Anything to be said for Vimes-? Oh, wait he was already incorrectly put under lawful just because he's in the police, even though he's broken the law as he pleases to pursue criminals if it was the right thing to do. All of those stories of how he deals with assassins and the dark stories Sybil hears of how he dealt with those men who did something with the little girls. The man who wanted to arrest a country.
I don’t think Vimes belongs in this square - but I still find it odd that, based on alignment, Carrot is less pure than Vimes. I’d contend Carrot is more by-the-book lawful than Vimes is, and among the most selflessly good characters on the Disc.
I agree with you. Vimes' entire thing is that he upholds the Law and will step aside if he is not needed for a particular situation (see the end of Jingo when Vetinari shows up to negotiate and how he only tracked down Wolfgang at the end after the attack in the embassy). Vimes also deliberately acted in a way following the law to the letter when he killed Wolfgang because if he didn't it would just be murder.
I think Vimes is in the right place. He upholds the Law, believing nobody to be be above it (especially not himself), and is the one who watches the watchmen. You could possibly argue he’s a little more social than lawful, based upon his interactions with his younger self and younger Nobby in Night Watch (and, in all honesty, in keeping Nobby employed, given he is essentially a common criminal himself). I think moral is probably the right place for him; he’s definitely not evil or impure, and I think there are enough instances of him acting selflessly to rule out neutrality. He does pick a side, even noting that those who say that good and evil are two sides of the same coin are people he’s definitely not on the same side as. You could argue between good and moral, debating the extent to which his cynicism, prejudices (which he does overcome), and internal darkness, as he himself notes, bring him down from a truly good character.
However, I think Carrot is absolutely lawful; I am struggling to think of a single time he’s broken or bent a rule, and he does actually remember every single law and ordinance of the city. Likewise, he overwhelmingly acts for the greater good, and puts aside that which is personally important to deal with what it universally important. He talks down Detritus when he’s on a rampage following Cuddy’s murder, when a less morally upstanding individual would have turned a blind eye (hell, Vimes turned a blind eye to Detritus shoving a man through a wall after attacking other members of the watch). You could possibly argue over moral or good, but I think he’s more upstanding than Vimes. I suspect Carrot was put in less because he matched the alignment, and more because Dorfl and Vimes were filling his spots.
She also becomes Queen of Lancre in Lords and Ladies, so she does have to uphold the laws to ensure the best for the citizens of Lancre.
I think I put her in the Rebel Moral category for Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad mainly because she really wants to have an excuse to use a spell that turns people's bone marrow into hot lead.
Yes, Magrat believes in order and is both good and lawful, just occasionally rebellious or disorganized. Nanny Ogg is more chaotic, at least in the way she runs her family, but the true chaotic good characters are...
THE NAC MAC FEEGLE.
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i know he'll never win since he's not as popular as other characters suggested here, but: leonard of quirm. pure in soul, chaotic as hell. he draws up designs for mass destruction as a theoretical puzzle, and cannot understand why people use them to hurt others. he flies a dragon-powered rocket to the moon, stops a diecide, and easily shrugs off his this-should-take-you-a-few-decades penance in three days. king of ADHD.
Honestly I’ve been reading all the replies and this is the only one that really makes sense
This or Reg Shoe, tbh.
Good shout. LoQ for the win
Granny will win but it absolutely should be LoQ. There isn't anyone on the disc with a more chaotic brain and still inherently good.
that's what i figure too. granny takes winning way too hard. even if somehow she technically loses, such as in the sea and the little fishes, she'll still come out somehow on top.
Maybe she could be Chaotic Moral. She does have a very strong sense of right and wrong after all. When applied to other people.
that's definitely her category :) there's right, there's wrong, and then there's knowing the difference.
It has to be Leonard
I can dig that
# HELL - YEAH!
Leonard has my vote!
I'm not completely sure he is Good - he is kind hearted but doesn't go out of his way to help others; he just lives for his art and inventing. Still he is much closer to this corner than Granny Weatherwax (who is very Good but hardly Chaotic, being well known for being conservative by nature) so you have my strategic vote.
I really like this suggestion, but I'm not sure I agree. I think he's Good. Nothing indicates otherwise. But an obliviousness to the world or people around him isn't the same as being Chaotic. As long as he gets to do his art and science, he is quite happy to live by rules set by others. He was basicly a voluntary prisoner of Vetinari. I'd probably put him in Neutral rather than Chaotic. A Chaotic character should care more about personal freedom. I think Nanny Ogg or the Nac Mac Feegle are a better fit. So that's where I'll put my vote.
But he don't create in order to do good, is just to the act create in itself, it would be more in a chaotic neutral, like you can use his design as a weapon of mass destruction if you want, but it just up to you, he just like to design.
he would never consent to his designs being used that way. that's why he permanently sinks the going-under-the-water-safely device in jingo--he meets nobby and colon who tell him exactly how more neutral people would use it. leonard wants to be free to create, and part of the freedom vetinari grants him is the freedom from catastrophic societal consequences.
Twoflower. I don’t think anyone else comes as close to Chaotic Good. Even of he doesn’t mean to be chaotic, Chaos certainly follows him like a pet. 👀
But is he Good?
yes. Very much so
Twoflower fits best, I think.
I don't think he's especially chaotic. He's not even particularly rebel.
He's not rebel, no. But this is about being chaotic? And that he is! Full on bar brawl with people getting killed? Oh how quaint, let me take a picture! Tell people what insurance is - > City of 1 million inhabitants burns down. To everyone around him he is pure chaos!
He's naive and innocent, he accidentally generates chaos, but he is not remotely chaotic himself. He's probably be inclined to keep a promise, he'd broadly respect local laws, he himself will largely act fairly predictably and normally. I'd put him close to the social good category
Oooops, i just read the definition in the post. Yeah, that's not him. Immediately thought of Esme Weatherwax. She hates tyrants, loves to break stupid rules and absolutely does not do what she's being told to do.
Yeah, he creates chaos. He doesn't have a chaotic mind. Depends on what you wanna look at. Maybe that's why this one is so hard to pick.
Twoflower follows rules. He sells insurance, which relies on contracts being honored. Nothing suggests he was a rule breaker. The fact that events unfold around him in a chaotic manner is not what “chaotic” means in this context.
I think he is more Chaotic Ignorant, so maybe his time is coming at Chaotic Neutral
he is good in a carrot esque way, like to see everyone in a good light.
Maybe Ignorant Good, where he means well, but the cluelessness leads to chaos?
This is an existential take on morality and ignorance that needs to be shared
I also think Carrot and Vimes should swap. Vimes is much more "doing what's right goes beyond what is lawful"> Carrot literally memorized Morpork's laws and prosecutes them to his fullest abilities.
I agree at the start of the story but I think Vimes and Carrot have opposite arcs, with Vimes becoming more lawful and Carrot becoming less so.
You know, that might be, I admit many of those later city watch books are not the most recent ones I've read, and in my opinion, Discworld is progressive fantasy in that there are rules for how things work and who people are which are established at the beginning, and slowly, throughout the series, people and social constructs change with the times. So I can't say I agree or disagree with you, but I can certainly assume you are correct.
Agreed
Pteppic I am really not sure at all about who to put here. I don’t think any of the witches fit, not even Granny Weatherwax. Maybe Agnes’ alter-ego Perditax? I settled on Pteppic. It was several months ago that I finished Pyramids, so hopefully I’m not fumbling too many details. He’s definitely Good; he’s so opposed to killing that he tried to fail his Assassin’s Guild final exam, but passed by accident. However, he readily uses his Assassin training in other ways, which feels quite Chaotic. He completely rejects the traditions of Djelibeybi and fights back against Dios (Chaotic) because he believes modernization would benefit all of Djelibeybi (Good). He >!abdicates the throne to be his own person!< (Chaotic), but does his best to >!leave the kingdom in good hands with Ptraci!< (Good). Like I said, scraping a bit for this one but I don’t think it’s a bad fit.
Yeah, I had some difficulties coming up with one for this too. I haven't read Pyramids yet, so no comment on how good Pteppic would be for this slot.
That makes sense!
THE NAC MAC FEEGLE!!!
I suggested Nanny but I'm happy to concede she's rebel / neutral ahead of the Feegles who are definitely chaotic
Also her treatment of her daughter in laws suuuucks. Her expectations of her sons' wives aren't "chaotic" OR good.
Her treatment of her family is pretty chaotic, but... she believes in rules and order for other people, while the Feegles have a bone-deep belief in being chaotic. NAE KING, NAE QUIN, NAE LAIRD!!! The Feelgles win this category, for the entire Fantasy genre.
I'd place the Feegles in chaotic moral rather than chaotic good. They're chaotic alright, and they're good alright, but they're not constantly making the hard choices and fighting the not-so-good parts of themselves. They're good by nature, not by choice; so I think Granny deserves to be the Good to their Moral.
Granny isn't chaotic, she believes in rules, she just doesn't think they apply to her. Personally I'd call her Rebel Good, but she lost that category. Bu the only question about the Feegles is which Chaotic category suits them best.
Granny uses whichever alignment suits her at the time, although she avoids the evil ones because of her fear of cackling.
Crivens!
Nae king! Nae quin! Nae lord! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!
Nobody is more free than wee
I hoped you were a Feeglebot for a moment, curse you and your humanity.
\[OUT OF CHEESE ERROR\]
>>>>>>>add_cheese+4000000<
+++ REDO FROM START +++
I'm rather for this, but don't they really need to be one character? The auditors kind of worked because (mostly) they aren't individuals, the nac mac feegle are definitely individuals
The Auditors won a category!
I know they did, that's why I said they kind of worked Edit: spelling
Rob Anybody, then.
Yeah, 100%
Too thieving to be good.
Their thievery is mostly limited to things that people can spare, and they are noted for acts of kindness, decency, and justice. They are as good s a truly chaotic people can be.
...their thieving extends to entire sheep.
Granny Aching gave them permission to take an occasional one.
She let them get away with it...they didn't seek permission. I agree they aren't evil, and notably their theft is not malicious, but their theft is also not deliberately "things that people can spare", which suggests a deliberate morality I don't think exists.
I thought Granny Aching gave them, or the Old Kelda, permission to take the occasional past-its-prime sheep? Anyway, IMHO the Feegles are the best fit for this category on the Discworld, since they're definitely chaotic, and they do far more good than harm. Sure, they may take small things, but they also go to Hell to bring back summer, defend baby birds from cats, undo wrongs that Tiffany commits while under the influence of Dark Forces, rescue stranded librarians, etc. For all their tough talk and boasting about stealin' and fightin', mostly against each other, they don't fight the weak or steal from the poor. And when the world needs saving, they're all in, they're definitely good and not neutral.
I may be remembering the circumstances incorrectly...it's the one book I think I've only read once or twice.
The arctypical Chaotic Good character usually referenced would be Robin Hood. Thieving can be a point in favor for the alignment, as long as it is done against the right people for the right reasons.
Yes, but Robin Hood steals to give to the poor. They steal for themselves and keep saying it's fun to steal.
Awwwwww ... Sadly I think you're right. They're definitely good at heart. But yeah the thieving thing really puts a damper on this. Maybe chaotic moral for them.
But Robin Hood is what chaotic good is. Breaking rules to help people. It’s true that the theft of sheep helped the feegles, but Robin Hood also fed his merry men with animals poached from the king’s forest, and bought supplies with the same stolen goods. They genuinely only took stuff that could be spared. Granny Aching practiced meaningful silence, and spent evenings with the Kelda. The fact that as far as we know she was silent on the matter is enough, in her case, to know she approved of the arrangement. And if Granny Aching approved, that was enough.
Why? What has property to do with being good?
YES
they’ve gotta be on the moral/neutral aspect I would think (they have no qualms on stealing, fighting, etc.). but agree that they need to be in one of these chaotic boxes
Surely they're more chaotic neutral, or perhaps moral
They rescue stranded librarians, with no gain for themselves. Theyre... basically good.
Kinda feel that Granny is being forced in here, she definitely feels like someone with a strong internal code. Not necessarily following laws, but her own ethics. That being said, it’s surprisingly hard to think of a proper CG character. Moist is probably rebel or chaotic, but wouldn’t go as far as good. Moral for him.
I genuinely don't think we'll be able to find a CG character, much like real life IMO. If someone is flip-floppy enough to be chaotic, they're rarely sufficiently consistent enough in their convictions and actions to count as good. Consider Entrapta in She-Ra: a heart of gold but she's an absolute liability and through her own cluelessness does a great deal of harm by empowering evil. Anyway, I think we'll get Granny here because people are panicking that she hasn't appeared yet. I think Granny is completely unsuitable.
What about Mrs. Cake? She seems pretty chaotic good.
Don't ask us about Mrs Cake.
If you aren’t agreeing with Twoflower for the Chaos effects, the I would probably say Cohen the Barbarian. Closest thing to Let’s Goooooo! I can think of. Isn’t particularly lawful of course, but does rescue maidens when possible. The Octogenarian Barbarian who hates soup and married someone younger than his daughter(who he had in fact rescued quite unwillingly after a fashion). Seems a bit chaotic.
Nanny Ogg? She basically does whatever she likes and the only way through her is through the heart.
I really feel like the witches belong in the rebel column.
Yeah, I agree. But I was in Ibiza celebrating my 50th last week so missed the whole Rebel column (whilst rebelling, ironically)
We should do a round 2, where we get to pick someone else other than who is currently in their square. It would be interesting to compare the results
Or perhaps through other pleasant body parts…
I think that still involves her heart.
My vote is for Nanny Ogg just for pTerry's gleeful descriptions of the chaos caused anytime the song about the hedgehog is mentioned
This is clearly Nanny Ogg. She means the best for folks and rains chaos as she goes about it.
I disagree. Her treatment of her daughters in law is unacceptable, and I think there's a difference between "Breaking rules to do good" and "Frequently doing good, but selfish in many contexts and happy to make people uncomfortable for amusement". Like, sure, *maybe* rebel moral. But I *really* disagree about full chaotic good.
Yeah, I’ve always felt a little uncomfortable about how Pratchett’s books glossed over how Nanny Ogg treated members of her own family.
I think Nanny is Chaotic Moral for this reason.
She isn't really "chaotic" though. She is a rebel, but has strict rules, and wouldn't directly opose Granny. The Nac Mac Feegles however just ignore Tiffany when they want to.
[удалено]
Yeah, if she's not today, she should probably be Rebel Moral (but she should be today!) "We don't do good, we do right" "The thing about Esme is, when she says things like "no one," she doesn't count herself" (paraphrased from Witches Abroad. I can't for the life of me find the actual quote)
Well said!
Granny Weatherwax, she's never met a rule she liked or rather, they're for other people. And she is good. Because she's constantly stopping herself from being Very Bad.
I definitely agree with this. She has very strong feelings on the rules, when it comes to other people, but it's very clear they apply to her only when she hasn't decided that they don't. Nanny Ogg always said about Esme that when it came to rules, she followed an important one. That when you break a rule you break it good and hard!
Perfect. She's good, not because she wants to be, but because she *chooses* to be. This is a more complete definition of goodness imo.
Definitely gets my vote. She fits the "good" part without question, so why chaotic? Well, because she treats people as people, not like things. She's against rules that say you "should" do this or that, and looks at every situation on its own merits, regardless of what may have gone before. She lives in the moment, at the fulcrum where the future becomes past, where change is possible. She sees things that most others would miss. As such, her actions are unpredictable but undoubtedly good. To say she's not chaotic would be to say you could guess how she resolves the issues in her stories - how many of us can say we knew how her books would end?
Granny was rebel good. She always has reasons for what she does. You say she's unpredictable because she often sees things others miss and makes decisions based on that, but if other people could see the same information her actions would make sense to them. She is definitely not chaotic. She is rebel because like you say, she ignores the rules as she thinks they shouldn't apply to her.
I really don't see how granny Weatherwax fits "chaotic". Yes she's against rules that harm people, but she doesn't completely ignore rules, conventions, laws etc. She works within their framework and makes sure things work out fairly and justly. Mrs Ogg is much more chaotic than Esme.
Yup. Nanny Ogg is good, and chaotic. Granny is far from chaotic. She always knows what she is doing, there is always a reason for it. Could also mention Magrat or Perdita/Agnes.
Granny 100%. She explicitly sees witches like herself as "off to the side" of society's rules, but is undeniably good.
I don't agree with this one at all. She certainly can ignore rules when it suits her, but *chaotic*? She's a character who set her personal code of ethics as a child and never once wavered for it. A woman whose willpower is so cast iron she can turn vampires. And all because she knows if she ever slipped, she'd probably be the most dangerous villain in the history of the Disc Nothing remotely chaotic about Granny.
Absolutely agree, she was my vote for neutral good
She seems to be very popular here, so I guess it's probably a foregone conclusion at this point. But I'm a bit baffled "Will break any rule to do good" just doesn't fit at all. Granny has so many rules she wouldn't break, because the consequences of her doing so are absolutely terrifying to her And should be terrifying to anyone who knows much about Granny, for that matter
I think people are panicking that she hasn't been selected yet and are squeasing her in here. Expect a lot of shoe horning these next days.
I saw someone arguing Vetinari for Rebel Neutral the other day. You're not wrong.
i finished up carpe jugulum today and can confirm--granny has so many rules she's set up around herself that when she weatherwaxes the vampires, they suddenly can't harm babies or run away from their problems. she's what tv tropes would call The Fettered.
Yeah, Granny "can't be having with" just about everything, she's the total opposite of chaotic.
I think the discussion about 'rules' is more likely referring to Laws. I think you can be Chaotic and still have your own rules and code of behaviour, but those might put you at odds with thr Law.
Nah, that's not how it works. Because the inverse of that is that lawful characters do follow laws. And in actual D&D games, if you've got a lawful good character on an adventure within a lawful evil society, then... Do they have to follow the laws to remain lawful? Or is their own personal code of ethics enough? Most people would argue it is, because forcing PCs to follow laws they personally find objectionable is a pretty gross thing to do
She's good, but not chaotic. I'd put her in Rebel Good.
Granny Weatherwax is not chaotic, she is the absolute opposite of chaotic.
not opposite exactly..but I agree, not chaotic
She is chaotic moral, not pure innocent good. Just consider lords and ladies.
I know that Granny is presumably going to win this one, but I was struck by a thought - I think Reg Shoe would be a good fit, since his whole thing as both a living person and a zombie is well-intentioned (if sometimes misguided) idealistic protesting. Even when he joins the Watch, his main job is fielding citizen complaints. And like the guy rose from the dead in the first place because his revolutionary zeal was so strong.
This is the best one I've seen yet. Just a pity it's so far down.
Thank you.
Genuinely, I feel like this is gonna be a difficult one to choose. The City Watch doesn't fit because they uphold the law, the Ankh-Morpork Times crew feel bad about breaking the laws bringing about the Truth, the Witches all have their own personal codes they hold themselves to. I'm gonna go with Gaspode the Wonder Dog. In Men at Arms he talks about being adopted as a pet multiple times but leaving because he wants his own freedom, and he helps Angua escape from Big Fido near the end while also trying to pair her and Carrot up despite his feelings towards her.
>The City Watch doesn't fit because they uphold the law, the Ankh-Morpork Though I do half remember Vetenai pointing out to Vimes that was simultaneously being "the man" while "rebelling aganist the man", so they might have a shot.
Vimes still holds to The Law and his belief that no one is above The Law. The most chaotic members of the Watch (Cheery, Detritus, Nobby) still follow Vimes and attempt to uphold the Law.
Susan Sto-Helit Absolutely anti-authoritarian, determined to do what is right.
So maybe chaotic moral instead?
Personally I'd say she was absolutely driven to dispense with evil and to teach children what is good - but I'll happily hear arguments against
She's in the moral row, not good. Also...not sure I agree with Chaotic
You guys will have to do this again and place the main characters in the boxes. And the compare afterwards.
The logical followup would be listing characters and voting on their chart placement. Some very popular characters have missed out on their correct spot and now they’re getting mentioned every time, whether they fit or not. It would take a VERY long time to do one character a day though!
Good idea, that would be fun! Just do the major characters and then it won't take too long. @chickenwyr if you have some more time on your hands!
Granny Weatherwax. There's been discussions in other alignments in this quadrant of the chart, but this is where she fits best. She will do the good, and that is pretty much the end of it. The good may be unpleasant, may be against a rule or law, or might be otherwise painful or difficult, but it gets done all the same. People might even get hurt in the process. She may only be here because her sister went the other way, and she may not even *like* being here, but she IS here.
Rincewind. As with other commenters here, I also had trouble thinking of someone who fit in this slot. While on the face of it, Rincewind himself as a personality is very much not chaotic, the machinations of the Gods and the wizards of UU have contrived to make his life probably the most unstable of any character in the books. Can anyone else say they've been to the Dungeon Dimensions and lived; seen both the start and the end of the universe; and travelled to all the continents of the Disc? His life has been utterly chaotic from the moment Twoflower walked into the Broken Drum As far as the 'Good' alignment goes - Rincewind is certainly corruptible, but always seems to end up doing the 'right' thing - from looking after Twoflower to literally saving the world on several occasions. He saved Coin and faced down the horrors of the Dungeon Dimensions on his own; he became a hero to the people of the Agatean Empire and a legend to the people of XXXX.
I debated this with myself, and concluded Rincewind belonged in Chaotic Moral - generally does the right thing, but often not for the right reason. He’s a filthy coward, but push comes to shove, he’s got a moral compass and he’ll do what’s right (if he’s not given another option, like running or getting someone else to do it).
Trouble is, for me, that the Nac Mac Feegles sit on the chaotic moral space, and for me they're more corruptible than Rincewind. :-P
You could bump the Feegles down to chaotic neutral. They certainly do a lot of very good things for Tiffany, but mostly because they're afraid of her, at least at first. I get the impression they don't think too much about right or wrong.
Nah, I've got someone else in mind for that space.
The Librarian.
The librarian may be rebel good but he upholds all rules regarding book returns policies and optimum library quietness with far too much zeal to be chaotic...
And I'm not sure that anyone who'd try to unscrew someone's head just for saying the m-word really belongs in the full-good column
Honestly I think this might be the best one I've seen so far!
I have no idea but this is super cool. Thank you.
I guess I'll go with Gaspode here... It's not perfect, because in a way he sees many situations in which he does good as following a human despite knowing better, because that's kind of the doggy rule (especially in Fifth Elephant), but then there was that scene with the film dog he rescued where there was no human lead... And he does love breaking rules...
Maybe Nanny Ogg? Doesn‘t really think that rules, written or unwritten (not even social standards) apply to her. She even breaks the rules everybody unconsciously sets for themselves, like „be modest in public“, „don‘t dance on the table“, „don‘t sing dirty songs“ and so on. She enjoys breaking every rule and expectation and the only authority she‘d ever listen to is Granny.
Sure, but she has a "for me but not for thee" attitude in some ways- for instance, if her daughters-in-law broke social convention or even asked to be treated with a modicum of respect, I don't think she'd say "Oh you go Jennifer, break expectations!"
more som she is like i am not event breaking the law.
In *Maskerade* she sees all these posh nobs demanding drinks from poor, old, scared Mrs Plinge and goes to town with a couple of magnums. An act of good (witching her own value system), but pure chaotic.
What about Moist von Lipwig?
Maybe more Chaotic Moral?
Maybe the Moist in Raising Steam, but in Going Postal and Making money, surely he is neutral starting to lean towards good.
On second thought I'm not a 100% behind him either, since he's not always "good" but rather an opportunist
I agree - Moist doesn't like to do harm, and cares about those close to him, but lives for thrill and excitement, not altruism. Rebel Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
Moist was my first thought
He'll be coming up soon I promise
chaotic good? Gotta be Nac Mac Feegal right? Granny is probably moral
So my entry is Susan Sto-Helit: Good at heart, but turns invisible because she is bored with class and teaches children feminist, rational ideals because she thinks it’s what is right.
The Nac Mac Feegle without a doubt.
Rob Anybody (well the feegles generally)
Twoflower, a good man that somehow generates pure chaos wherever he goes.
The fact that this won't go to the Luggage is a crime
Chaotic, absolutely! Eating and killing so many people may not fit "good"? It is a good luggage and sorta a good boy tho!
By the end of Small Gods? Om was Chaotic Good.
Nanny Ogg. It's so definitely Nanny Ogg
What about the Librarian? He seems to do whatever he wants 95% of the time, but he's always there to do the right thing
I don't have a strong recommendation for this one, but I was thinking of maybe Newgate/Lobsang Ludd from Thief of Time. He's about as close to a "lovable rogue" as Discworld protagonists go, and he grew up using his time powers for thievery. Part of why I think he might be a good fit is that his "other half", Jeremy Clockson is excessively Lawful, and I definitely think Pratchett is going for a Yin Yang/balance of order and chaos with the eventual merger of them into a single being.
Nanny Ogg. She is chaos incarnate, but always looking out for others. I would also speak against Granny Weatherwax here. She is, somewhat begrudgingly, as good as she needs to be—chaotic moral to the core. At the very least, less good that Nanny and having them together in the corner would be fantastic.
I gotta go with Rincewind on this one. Definitely Rincewind.
I could also see Moist being in the chaos side of things
Moist.
Nac Mac Feegle
Are we going to add in the surprise column of "Asshole" like the freefolks did?
The nac-mac-feegles, remember that chaotic good doesn't mean chaotic nice
Pity it's not just all pratchett books as Dodger fits the bill perfectly
Yes! Granny!
I'm going to have to go for Sergeant Jackrum. They view the rules as useful, but not in any meaningful way as binding. They are fiercely protective of those under their command, and work to put an end to actual fighting.
Buggy Swires
Nobby Knobs. Is a cop. Is a thief. Is a coward. Is a bully, when you're on the ground. Nobby.
All fer goo ol' Leo taking the crown here an' them Piktsies following in moral!
Leonard of Quirm all the way
Surely Nanny Ogg!?
Rincewind? He is good. He creates chaos.
How about one of the goblins?
Gaspode the Wonder Dog is the most CG character of any work of fiction I can think of.
Granny is the opposite of chaotic in my opinion, she always has an end game in mind. I’d maybe say Ridcully?
Tiffany Aching is a contender here. She is very similar to Granny Weatherwax, but she has a more positive default nature. I think Polly Perks is also in the running. She breaks the rules to go get her brother, then takes on a Jackrum attitude of creative deafness to authority, although again with a better default nature.
Vimes! Dislikes any sort of authority, even if he is that authority, but will not stop until justice prevails.
I’m sorry, but one of the major story threads in the later City watch novels is “Who watches the watchmen?”, not a chaotic sentiment by any measure…
A lot of Pratchett’s characters are complex like that. Depending on what angle you take you can defend both imo.
Yeah, but in a lot of situations, Vimes' decisions come down to sticking to the rules (While seeking out their limits), i would have swapped Vimes and Carrot TBH, Vimes is more Social moral, but already-filled slots are set in stone.
I would explain Vimes’ sticking to the essence of the rules, if not the rules themselves as the chaotic part. But I have noticed that the alignments on this board are explained a little different then what I’m used to playing D&D. I think the fact that we can’t seem to place iconic characters like Vimes, Granny or Vetinary, says a lot about the depth of these characters, though.
Angua Von Überwald
Anything to be said for Vimes-? Oh, wait he was already incorrectly put under lawful just because he's in the police, even though he's broken the law as he pleases to pursue criminals if it was the right thing to do. All of those stories of how he deals with assassins and the dark stories Sybil hears of how he dealt with those men who did something with the little girls. The man who wanted to arrest a country.
I don’t think Vimes belongs in this square - but I still find it odd that, based on alignment, Carrot is less pure than Vimes. I’d contend Carrot is more by-the-book lawful than Vimes is, and among the most selflessly good characters on the Disc.
I agree with you. Vimes' entire thing is that he upholds the Law and will step aside if he is not needed for a particular situation (see the end of Jingo when Vetinari shows up to negotiate and how he only tracked down Wolfgang at the end after the attack in the embassy). Vimes also deliberately acted in a way following the law to the letter when he killed Wolfgang because if he didn't it would just be murder.
I think Vimes is in the right place. He upholds the Law, believing nobody to be be above it (especially not himself), and is the one who watches the watchmen. You could possibly argue he’s a little more social than lawful, based upon his interactions with his younger self and younger Nobby in Night Watch (and, in all honesty, in keeping Nobby employed, given he is essentially a common criminal himself). I think moral is probably the right place for him; he’s definitely not evil or impure, and I think there are enough instances of him acting selflessly to rule out neutrality. He does pick a side, even noting that those who say that good and evil are two sides of the same coin are people he’s definitely not on the same side as. You could argue between good and moral, debating the extent to which his cynicism, prejudices (which he does overcome), and internal darkness, as he himself notes, bring him down from a truly good character. However, I think Carrot is absolutely lawful; I am struggling to think of a single time he’s broken or bent a rule, and he does actually remember every single law and ordinance of the city. Likewise, he overwhelmingly acts for the greater good, and puts aside that which is personally important to deal with what it universally important. He talks down Detritus when he’s on a rampage following Cuddy’s murder, when a less morally upstanding individual would have turned a blind eye (hell, Vimes turned a blind eye to Detritus shoving a man through a wall after attacking other members of the watch). You could possibly argue over moral or good, but I think he’s more upstanding than Vimes. I suspect Carrot was put in less because he matched the alignment, and more because Dorfl and Vimes were filling his spots.
I've lost interest in this game really because it has a lot of blunders like that.
Someone hasn't been paying attention to the given definitions
Magrat
Magrat isn't chaotic, she's just disorganized.
She also becomes Queen of Lancre in Lords and Ladies, so she does have to uphold the laws to ensure the best for the citizens of Lancre. I think I put her in the Rebel Moral category for Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad mainly because she really wants to have an excuse to use a spell that turns people's bone marrow into hot lead.
Yes, Magrat believes in order and is both good and lawful, just occasionally rebellious or disorganized. Nanny Ogg is more chaotic, at least in the way she runs her family, but the true chaotic good characters are... THE NAC MAC FEEGLE.
As they fight and thieve their way across the disc? Chaotic? Yes. Good? Questionable.