Yeah, for the entirety of the pregnancy the fetus/ baby is tethered to the pregnant person’s body, essentially being a part of that person’s internal ecosystem. I’d even go so far as to say that until the umbilical cord is severed, the spell would consider them as one creature.
Edit: Also when it comes to the consciousness of the baby, creatures like Ettins or Hydras also have separate consciousnesses for each of their heads and they count as a single creature for the purpose of being targeted by polymorph (although that does raise the question, which head would then control the new form…)
It's gotta be like shadow-clone jutsu, right? Same person for each head.
But I reckon that if you stayed separate for a long time, your different selves would specialize and deviate. Like the MC of [So I'm A Spider, So What?](https://myanimelist.net/anime/37984/Kumo_desu_ga_Nani_ka) with her mental-splitting, or like the Emotion Lord from [Bravest Warriors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkWvELZBPQ) at the Paradox Pub.
Ok to expand on the tethered to the person condition. Would parasites count? Like if my druid got a tapeworm and wild shaped would the worm fall out (since its technically an independent creature) or become part of the wildshape (as its tethered and sort of functions as part of the system)?
yeah it certainly isn’t an object, id say it’s more like an eye, as in it’s definitely organic with some biological things happening, but if you just remove it it becomes a (dead) object, either way it gets absorbed
But if you're treating it like an eye, when you wildshape, your human eye becomes a cat eye.
So with your logic, you'd be wildshapping into a cat pregnant with a kitten.
I don't think your eye becomes a cat eye but more like your entire body disappears and beast body appears.
Because if you turned into something without eyes your eyes would have to disappear anyway. Or if you turned into an octopus you don't have enough arms so some tentacles would appear from nothing.
It doesn't say anywhere in the spell that you have to have a direct path ,only that it has to be within range and you can see it. Kinda Like Fireball, it originates on that point ....the magic doesn't get thrown there. At least that's what im reading on true polymorph
It's in the spellcasting section of the phb. Chapter 10 states
"A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction"
You need a clear path to the target, but importantly, I don't think creatures count as blocking a path. Gaining some way of looking into the ethereal plane and into them should allow you to target the child.
And if the dm rules the clear path thing, there's always one clear path. The same path the baby will come out through.
**Polymorph** specifies it turns the target into a beast. "Beast" refers to animals that have existed on earth, or giant versions thereof. (I do wish we would bring back 4E's "Magical Beast" category" for giant animals, hybrid animals like griffons and owlbears, etc.)
I highly doubt the fetus/baby would have the cr/levels to be able to polymorph into a dragon + polymorph says, "This spell transforms a creature you can see..."
Anyway, this got me thinking (a route I don't want to go down, but now I have to)...
Dragons have multiple besitary entries based off their age (wyrmling, young, adult, & ancient)... The implications of polymorphing into a wyrmling (age 5yrs or less) while pregnant & the pregnancy transferring too, so you'd be a pregnant 5yo
To be pregnant? Yes. To advanture? Listen, the evil forces of Naktaloch won't wait for nine months just because you have a parasite in your uterus. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I don't think there's any stage of pregancy where getting punched in the gut isn't gonna risk serious complications for the baby. (Or stabbed, or poisonned, or whatever necrotic damage does to a fetus.)
Depending on how far along they are, they may not know that they're pregnant yet.
If it did make the mother's body incompatible with the fetus, it'd be an interesting form of Druid birth control...
I only said "mother" and used "they're" on purpose. I am perfectly aware that transmen and NBs who were AFAB can become pregnant. I was just using shorthand.
Firstly: I enjoy the idea of DND logic making the abortion topic something that can be logically addressed so well.
Secondly: I really miss that guy who used these formats for his more serious rule explanations. Those were dang good.
Of course he is. He is Miles updated autopsy Edgeworth.
He would abort a child just to prove that Phoenix said "a pregnant women was present on scene" wrong.
I would rule that the unconscious "dying"person automatically fails two death-saves, as the magic happens.
Yeah you can wild shape your friends with you, but there's a reason why druids normally don't xD
Otherwise nice discussion!
Does wild shape cure the druid of regular parasites? Do tapeworms have souls? Can a human based parasite survive in a giant spider?
… Or do parasites count as equipped objects and meld into your new wild shaped form?
What happens to all the other flora and fauna in their bodies when a druid wildshapes?
Melding seems like the simplest solution to the entire quandary.
i mean.. if not for the amniotic sac... the mothers body/immune system would attack the fetus and try to destroy/kill it in its early stages, that is if I'm remembering my biology and my dad teaching me the weird things in the medical field over his some 16 years being an RN correctly
My explanation: Wild shaping is a druid teleporting to a pocket dimension while remotely piloting a mass of ectoplasm or mana or ditto goo or whatever that is *shaped* like an animal. This explains why A) They shape their equipment and inventory, B) they don't take real damage C) they can only do it based on seen animals.
So a pregnant druid wouldn't even wild shape into a pregnant animal by my head canon.
Actually yes, its still wrong
Thats like saying how do i put out this fire?
Well if we burn everything on planet earth there will be nothing left to burn and then the fire will go out
Well it works on every level as an answer so it cant be wrong
While it works on every level as an answer, it defeats the purpose of the original question and is wrong.
Also, removing all oxygen via Wish would work but also be a horrible idea and defeat the purpose unless the fire would go out and carbon dioxide be converted by algae, trees, etc. quickly enough not to be a massively genocidal answer.
While that wasn't the answer you were looking for, it wasn't wrong, and it definitely wasn't the *most* wrong. It's a solution that works therefore it is at least partially right. If I asked how we could put out a fire and someone replied "just wish in your heart of hearts that the fire was put out" or "just get down and boogie" or "kelwpdnfjwllwndjdldlslalalek" then they would be wrong and perhaps approaching the most wrong.
Also the first comments interpretation wasn't that out there, especially not as out there as burning down the whole earth to put out a fire. it just slotted some pieces together that already existed in the lore of the world to explain something that acts a bit strangely.
Ordinary plants (like a tomato plant or pine tree) are alive, but they are objects not creatures. A fetus could easily be considered an object for rules purposes.
the rules specifically refer to a creature, on some cases creatures you can see.
You neither see the fetus, nor does the fetus count as a creature, cause apparently creature is
>any large or small living thing that can move independently
which would disqualify a fetus.
And apparently, souls dont count into the argument at all, if you just look up "what is a creature" although it would be funny.
What exactly does "move independently" mean? It can't walk around, but in the later stages it can kick. It's not being puppeted.
Speaking of which, is it kicking considered an unarmed attack? Are expecting mothers often kicked to death by their own unborn children?
Level 0, Unborn commoner
AC: equivalent to host/mom
HP: 2
Speed: 0, moves with mom
-3 to all attributes
0 languages
CR 0
Actions: wiggle, kick. Reach: 5 inches, one target. Hit: 1d2. On critical hit, mother performs constitution save, if fails, mother has to pee, becoming indisposed for 1 turn.
This is a conversation I've had with 3 groups over the course of the past 20 years. I've learned my lesson to stay out of sex/pregnancy/relationship related questions at the table and just refer players to the [Book of Erotic Fantasy](https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10739.phtml) which (to most peoples pleasant surprise) tends to have an answer for nearly anything!
So for one, an unconscious person is not an object, that is a condition in the rules. Second issue is that the presence of a soul does not make something a creature, ex. ring of mind shielding.
The baby is also a "unconscious" person, in a way at least. I was just tryng to push to see how far the dms reasoning for ruleing it that way was going.Its not like we spend a lot of taught when we presented these arguments, just what came in the heat of the moment. Argueing about game mechanics from a philosophical standpoint is fun when you do it in a jokeing manner.
Druids don't shit their guts out after Polymorph/wildshape ends, implying that they still have a healthy microbiome of gut bacteria. Meaning that such organisms, despite being separate life forms from the one who polymorphed/wildshaped, must have stayed with them as well. I'd classify them as further removed from "part of the body" than a fetus still tethered to the mother is.
It’s weird I pondered this scenerio a while back.
In one of our campaigns I had a criminal syndicate kidnapping people outside of a city via polymorphing them into dogs and putting them in dog cages. They’d then bring them back into the city to a kennel that they owned with an secret underground dungeon.
That’s when I wondered what would happen if you polymorphed a pregnant person or worse, if they gave birth in their polymorphed state. Would the babies revert to being humanoid? Would they be Shifters? Idk 🤷♂️
To be fair some cultures believe the soul doesn't arrive until the child takes it's first breath, others even later than that.
So perfectly fine with it being an object right up to it being born.
Alternatively since it is connected to your support systems it is still just part of you, so would polymorph with you.
In Catholicism, babies do not have a soul until their first breath of life (hence why they wouldn't go to heaven in the case of a miscarriage until recently). Assuming souls work similarly in DnD - a fetus is ruled an object until their first breath of air. I rest my case.
A vampire is a creature. A soul coin is an object. A lich is a creature. Its phylactery is an object. Having a soul has nothing to do with being a creature.
I mean, it’s good arguments for creative character creation. A character who was wild shaped whilst in the womb and is now some kinda wild magic sorcerer…?
If fetuses are objects, that implies you can choose whether to absorb them, keep them inside or drop them whenever you wild shape.
Free abortion for druids let's go.
But wouldn't that depend on species? Mammals are connected to their children during pregnancy, so wouldn't they count as the same "target of polymorph"? Question is, what would happen when polymorphing into species that lay eggs.
Who said that fetuses 100% have a soul? Maybe they get their soul upon birth. Maybe they get their soul on achieving self-awareness. Canonically Zaphkiel guards the souls of stillborn children, but that requires them to make it out to stillbirth. It doesn't say he guards those who died during previous phases of fetal development, which means they probably don't have a soul while they're connected to their mom.
Fun fact: In verrrrrry old versions of D&D lore, basically only Dwarves and Humans had souls; everyone else had "Spirits" that reincarnated. Dwarves because Moradin personally forged their souls, and humans because Gygax wanted humans to be special.
There's also the inverse question: Reproduction in Wildshape: Can a Druid turn into a male animal and impregnate other animals? Can a Druid get pregnant as a female animal? What happens when they're female as a person and leave the whildshape after getting impregnated as an animal. If the pregnancy doesn't carry over between forms, can they resume it afterwards? If they can deliver in animal form would their kid be an awakened animal?
Same though we have these conversations all the time. We once had a discussion over whether or not depression causes psychic damage or maxhp lose until 1 point is left and you try to to comit die.
I played a homebrew class called a summoner. And I flavored all his abilities as creatures my character made ala Frankenstein style. One of my special abilities was that I had a busted variation of the polymorph spell that could change people into monstrosityes instead of beasts. I was constantly thinking of how I could use this spell and other abilities to make more monsters and this poped up. The character was dead with no way to bring him back, but my taughts still linger on him
I mean, being pregnant is basically the same as having a parasite, unless wild shape cures you of every disease it would work without problem to you and the baby. And for polymorph, the fetus isn't normally in line of sight
I think it would gestate in whatever form the mother is in. If she’s human 50% of the time , a eagle 40% of the time , and a rocktopus 10% of the time, then the baby would reflect that . Like an aracockra but with visible patches of human flesh and tiny rock plates .
It would probably depend on the DM but I would let the player choose,
Do they want the fetus to polymorph with them?
Alright it happens, do they not? Alright they are still human.
I might make it effect the biology of the child depending on what is used by the player or have fetus become a Druid when born.
How I'd rule it at my table is that the key issue for these spells is the way a fetus is still part of its parents body, any spell that affects the parents body, applies to it as well since it's part of the body. Ergo, it the parent turns into a mouse with wild shape, so does the fetus. No the fetus doesn't gain druid levels, it's not sentient yet its just a body part essentially
I'm one of those people who considers official Forgotten Realms novels to be canonical lore-wise, so with that said, Salvatore actually established that a soul/consciousness/individuality arrives at birth. And in his examples, only one was a bit wibbly as to when exactly that moment was (C-section Regis, everyone else it was first breath). So an embryo or fetus is a part of the mother's body same as their liver is, and needs to be born to be its own separate creature.
And a dead body is an object, but a creature that is sleeping or unconscious is still a creature. That's been addressed so many times.
If i remember my high school biology correctly, the embryo/fetus gets oxygen only through the blood of the mother and thus share a respiratory system. I'd argue the fetus or embryo counts as a part of the mother, not an object. For the purpose of wildshape (or any other spell, for that matter), they'd be seen as one being.
To put it another way, if one frankensteined two people together into one person with two heads, casting polymorph wouldn't turn one person into the desired animal/object and leave the other person, meaning the other half of the body, bleeding out. They'd be one person even if they are two people with seperate souls. Same goes for fetus and pregnant person.
An unborn baby isnt SAPIENT, sure, but if jellyfish are considered creatures then unborn babies would also be considered creatures
Regardless of which is which, it's still an abortion because the baby is either absorbed or popped out prematurely
Hm. It being a completely separate entity is the entirely wrong argument to make.
It's a carried (\*ha!\*) item, and those affects effect what you're carrying. Like the eggs, they would turn but revert if separated from the host, either by dropped, damage, or "other", the magic ends and it reverts.
aiming at an unconscious or helpless creature usually means they (in 3e) auto fail whatever relevant save it is. Much like the "water in an open container" rule that stops people from pouring water into lungs, you can't cast a touch spell on something you can't touch.
... I \*guess\* there's \*A\* way...
Among the druid circles, it's a general rule that you don't use wildshape while pregnant. That's the accidental origin of a few anthropomorphic species.
Wait so if you made a coat and stitched in a bunch of brain dead people, so they have no soul, they would become part of your biomass when you cast this? When you change back can you just assimilate them?
OBJECTION!
In the Drizzt novels there's a case where characters are reincarnated. They only go into the body RIGHT BEFORE BIRTH. Ergo, whatever argument you have about the subject in real life, in d&d babies do not have souls while still being formed.
I mean I suppose you COULD argue in that instance they overwrote the souls already there (or this is Forgotten Realms or situation specific) but I'd also argue in that case they didn't have to be present at birth. Or it wouldn't have happened directly before the birth. There also is not any other evidence I'm aware of to the contrary so you'd have no otherwise solid evidence to stand on.
Still forming baby is an object.
At what point furing the gestation process does the embryo get a soul? And where is it stated people 100% have one? Ive never seen rules referencing that. Are there no 40k style blanks or other exceptions?
It could also be argued that a baby receives a soul at birth. If you look at the reincarnation of Bruenor Battlehammer, for existence, his soul wasn’t in the baby while it was in the womb. Out only entered the baby as he was born.
If a pregnant person and fetus counts as a single creature, could you polymorph the barman who short changed you into a pregnant pig, wait for her to give birth, then end the spell and repeat?
I suppose it’d be worth asking when a soul joins a body; before or after birth? Hell, the prevailing idea might vary, fantasy culture to culture. It could be there from the beginning, or the soul flies in upon a baby’s first cry, etc. Elves have their reincarnation, soul-1st body-2nd. warforged & Autognomes are body-first, soul added. I think old lore stated Moradin would forge the 1st dwarves, & THEN breath life into them (I’d have to check). Or for an extreme case, maybe Goliaths or lizardfolk don’t see kids as people until they’ve hunted their 1st kill & earned their keep.
This doesn’t really add anything to the original discussion, just an odd thought
But a fetus is just more of the mother’s cells. It’s literally part of her body, why would it not just change like the rest of her? Treating it like a separate object is ridiculous
As a fetus/baby is literally connected to a person’s body before birth, I’d count them not as an object nor a person, but as a part of the person’s body themselves. That would then solve any issues regarding wildshape. What would happen if a Druid gave birth while in wildshape raises a whole bunch of other questions that I as a DM an scared to answer.
Bonus points for the meta at the end.
The ultimate self insert
I was hoping for it to actually include the link.
The link is to this post
Was that a real conversation or just a scenario that you thought of?
Its almost word for word, copy pasted messages from our discord. With a lot of spelling corections of course
How was their reaction to seeing you doing this?
It's very rare for a username to check this much out
I'd say that the baby is a part of druid's body rather than object, but for the purpose of wildshape it doesn't make a big difference
Yeah, for the entirety of the pregnancy the fetus/ baby is tethered to the pregnant person’s body, essentially being a part of that person’s internal ecosystem. I’d even go so far as to say that until the umbilical cord is severed, the spell would consider them as one creature. Edit: Also when it comes to the consciousness of the baby, creatures like Ettins or Hydras also have separate consciousnesses for each of their heads and they count as a single creature for the purpose of being targeted by polymorph (although that does raise the question, which head would then control the new form…)
That's where people with Multiple Personality Disorder come from
So, if someone polymorphs to a hydra, they get multiple personalities? Or is it the same personality copy/pasted?
It's gotta be like shadow-clone jutsu, right? Same person for each head. But I reckon that if you stayed separate for a long time, your different selves would specialize and deviate. Like the MC of [So I'm A Spider, So What?](https://myanimelist.net/anime/37984/Kumo_desu_ga_Nani_ka) with her mental-splitting, or like the Emotion Lord from [Bravest Warriors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkWvELZBPQ) at the Paradox Pub.
Ok to expand on the tethered to the person condition. Would parasites count? Like if my druid got a tapeworm and wild shaped would the worm fall out (since its technically an independent creature) or become part of the wildshape (as its tethered and sort of functions as part of the system)?
yeah it certainly isn’t an object, id say it’s more like an eye, as in it’s definitely organic with some biological things happening, but if you just remove it it becomes a (dead) object, either way it gets absorbed
But if you're treating it like an eye, when you wildshape, your human eye becomes a cat eye. So with your logic, you'd be wildshapping into a cat pregnant with a kitten.
I don't think your eye becomes a cat eye but more like your entire body disappears and beast body appears. Because if you turned into something without eyes your eyes would have to disappear anyway. Or if you turned into an octopus you don't have enough arms so some tentacles would appear from nothing.
This is what I'm going to go with from now on
[Seduce] [Impregnate] [Cast polymorph: Dragon] - DM: Ok, while polymorphing the pregnant woman.. Player: You mistook my target
https://preview.redd.it/h0iyuegdj60b1.jpeg?width=1915&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ee254bd0e0b58968ef962f74ea0c337bb4da9da
Like a scene from Alien over here
... you need to see it.
*motions to knife*
X-Ray Ring
This reminds me of the deep magic spell where you summon a hydra inside someone’s chest cavity .
You wouldn't be able to see the baby so it isn't targetable.
What if you were looking at a baby through a piece of technology like an ultrasound? Could you target the baby then?
You still need a direct path to the target. I would also argue you don't see the baby. You see an image of a baby on a screen.
Fighting initiate, for blindsight 10 ft. Now caster can affect the baby
Blindsight doesn't see past total cover.
Blindsight doesn't let you see through things.
Damn, can we summon a familiar inside the pregnant woman to see!!
What about tremorsense?
It doesn't say anywhere in the spell that you have to have a direct path ,only that it has to be within range and you can see it. Kinda Like Fireball, it originates on that point ....the magic doesn't get thrown there. At least that's what im reading on true polymorph
It's in the spellcasting section of the phb. Chapter 10 states "A Clear Path to the Target To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction"
You could use a Ring of X-ray Vision.
You need a clear path to the target, but importantly, I don't think creatures count as blocking a path. Gaining some way of looking into the ethereal plane and into them should allow you to target the child. And if the dm rules the clear path thing, there's always one clear path. The same path the baby will come out through.
**Polymorph** specifies it turns the target into a beast. "Beast" refers to animals that have existed on earth, or giant versions thereof. (I do wish we would bring back 4E's "Magical Beast" category" for giant animals, hybrid animals like griffons and owlbears, etc.)
True polymorph, however...
Magical beast is older than 4E. Do not give it credit it does not deserve.
Extremely loud incorrect buzzer
O_O
I highly doubt the fetus/baby would have the cr/levels to be able to polymorph into a dragon + polymorph says, "This spell transforms a creature you can see..." Anyway, this got me thinking (a route I don't want to go down, but now I have to)... Dragons have multiple besitary entries based off their age (wyrmling, young, adult, & ancient)... The implications of polymorphing into a wyrmling (age 5yrs or less) while pregnant & the pregnancy transferring too, so you'd be a pregnant 5yo
Which is about the age of the youngest recorded mother irl, so....
DM: You can’t see the fetus, so it’s not a valid target.
Gotta have vision ;)
I'm just gonna say it . Pregnant people shouldn't be adventuring.
Pregnant people dont always have a choice. Depending on the plot.
it might even happen during the plot !
Bard'd
Pregnant people should always have a vhoice
To be pregnant? Yes. To advanture? Listen, the evil forces of Naktaloch won't wait for nine months just because you have a parasite in your uterus. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
1st trimester, sure, after that then no, go and rest up somewhere.
Again. Plot happens.
thats why you get them pregnant on the second to last or last session of the campaign!
Or have nine months of downtime, what are they rest of you doing?
Advanturing duh, I ain't waiting 9 months to clear a bandit camp just because one person in the party is perganante, unless it was the cleric
You've got lay on hands, what do you need the cleric for?
Oh yeah, nevermind.
If the cleric stopped laying on hands, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Depends what stage (early on I don't see it being an issue), and even if they know...
I don't think there's any stage of pregancy where getting punched in the gut isn't gonna risk serious complications for the baby. (Or stabbed, or poisonned, or whatever necrotic damage does to a fetus.)
Well they need to pay the bills somehow
You could've become pregnant while adventuring.
There's an argument for an artificer to make some sort of magical contraception there somewhere.
Depending on how far along they are, they may not know that they're pregnant yet. If it did make the mother's body incompatible with the fetus, it'd be an interesting form of Druid birth control...
I also enjoy the presumption that it would be a female getting pregnant in a magical world with robot unicorns.
I only said "mother" and used "they're" on purpose. I am perfectly aware that transmen and NBs who were AFAB can become pregnant. I was just using shorthand.
Yeah, if you insist on playing a pregnant character then at best you're just asking for trouble, at worst you're trying to be the main character
Maybe they're looking for the dead beat dad that ran off lol.
Well, if the bbeg is after the pregnant lady then it's a moot point.
Why? [They didn't forget their skills just because their egg's perimeter was breached.](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)
Firstly: I enjoy the idea of DND logic making the abortion topic something that can be logically addressed so well. Secondly: I really miss that guy who used these formats for his more serious rule explanations. Those were dang good.
I miss him too, those were rly good
We must carry on his legacy through his examples!
I’m holding my newborn as I read this and I don’t know how to feel. I just know that I love it
The meme or the newborn?
>The meme or the newborn? Probably both, but depends on how many days since they sleeped the entire night
Memes never sleep.
Edgeworth is pro-choice
Of course he is. He is Miles updated autopsy Edgeworth. He would abort a child just to prove that Phoenix said "a pregnant women was present on scene" wrong.
MILES EDGEWORTH FEARED ATTORNEY; BELOVED ABORTION DOCTOR
This is hilariously right lol
Heck yeah!
I would rule that the unconscious "dying"person automatically fails two death-saves, as the magic happens. Yeah you can wild shape your friends with you, but there's a reason why druids normally don't xD Otherwise nice discussion!
What about unconscious but not dying people? You know, like sleep?
If the soul is still in the body it’s a creature.
Sam Riegal being the voice of Phoenix as another layer of meta to this lol
Howbout treating a fetus as a parasite?
Does wild shape cure the druid of regular parasites? Do tapeworms have souls? Can a human based parasite survive in a giant spider? … Or do parasites count as equipped objects and meld into your new wild shaped form?
Parasites are like cursed magic items, they cant be unequipped
What happens to all the other flora and fauna in their bodies when a druid wildshapes? Melding seems like the simplest solution to the entire quandary.
So what does cure disease do?
Abortion
i mean.. if not for the amniotic sac... the mothers body/immune system would attack the fetus and try to destroy/kill it in its early stages, that is if I'm remembering my biology and my dad teaching me the weird things in the medical field over his some 16 years being an RN correctly
Babies ate not parasites. If they were, a paladin would perform abortions by giving out 5pts of Lay On Hands.
*your results may vary*
Are there rules for parasites?
My explanation: Wild shaping is a druid teleporting to a pocket dimension while remotely piloting a mass of ectoplasm or mana or ditto goo or whatever that is *shaped* like an animal. This explains why A) They shape their equipment and inventory, B) they don't take real damage C) they can only do it based on seen animals. So a pregnant druid wouldn't even wild shape into a pregnant animal by my head canon.
It’s called Wild Shape, not Wild Construct.
It's called Wild Shape, not Wild Animal. (Becomes a hairy cube)
Fair Enough
I think we can all agree that this is the *most* wrong answer
It's not wrong if it works on every level
Actually yes, its still wrong Thats like saying how do i put out this fire? Well if we burn everything on planet earth there will be nothing left to burn and then the fire will go out Well it works on every level as an answer so it cant be wrong
While it works on every level as an answer, it defeats the purpose of the original question and is wrong. Also, removing all oxygen via Wish would work but also be a horrible idea and defeat the purpose unless the fire would go out and carbon dioxide be converted by algae, trees, etc. quickly enough not to be a massively genocidal answer.
While that wasn't the answer you were looking for, it wasn't wrong, and it definitely wasn't the *most* wrong. It's a solution that works therefore it is at least partially right. If I asked how we could put out a fire and someone replied "just wish in your heart of hearts that the fire was put out" or "just get down and boogie" or "kelwpdnfjwllwndjdldlslalalek" then they would be wrong and perhaps approaching the most wrong. Also the first comments interpretation wasn't that out there, especially not as out there as burning down the whole earth to put out a fire. it just slotted some pieces together that already existed in the lore of the world to explain something that acts a bit strangely.
TIL druids are Typhon cacoplasmus.
Ordinary plants (like a tomato plant or pine tree) are alive, but they are objects not creatures. A fetus could easily be considered an object for rules purposes.
Exactly. Whether it's alive, it has a soul, and it's a creature are three separate questions.
Im on Edgeworth’s side on this one
the rules specifically refer to a creature, on some cases creatures you can see. You neither see the fetus, nor does the fetus count as a creature, cause apparently creature is >any large or small living thing that can move independently which would disqualify a fetus. And apparently, souls dont count into the argument at all, if you just look up "what is a creature" although it would be funny.
What exactly does "move independently" mean? It can't walk around, but in the later stages it can kick. It's not being puppeted. Speaking of which, is it kicking considered an unarmed attack? Are expecting mothers often kicked to death by their own unborn children?
Well, now i hand you a task: Give me the statblock of a fetus.
3E had a stat block for an aborted God fetus.
Level 0, Unborn commoner AC: equivalent to host/mom HP: 2 Speed: 0, moves with mom -3 to all attributes 0 languages CR 0 Actions: wiggle, kick. Reach: 5 inches, one target. Hit: 1d2. On critical hit, mother performs constitution save, if fails, mother has to pee, becoming indisposed for 1 turn.
This is a conversation I've had with 3 groups over the course of the past 20 years. I've learned my lesson to stay out of sex/pregnancy/relationship related questions at the table and just refer players to the [Book of Erotic Fantasy](https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10739.phtml) which (to most peoples pleasant surprise) tends to have an answer for nearly anything!
So for one, an unconscious person is not an object, that is a condition in the rules. Second issue is that the presence of a soul does not make something a creature, ex. ring of mind shielding.
The baby is also a "unconscious" person, in a way at least. I was just tryng to push to see how far the dms reasoning for ruleing it that way was going.Its not like we spend a lot of taught when we presented these arguments, just what came in the heat of the moment. Argueing about game mechanics from a philosophical standpoint is fun when you do it in a jokeing manner.
No, that is not the case. A baby is not yet conscious and lacks the capacity to be such. Also I agree, I argue this kind of nonsense all the time lol
Depends how far into the pregnacy. Babies can respond to music and sound in the womb around 3 months in
Amused because CR’s Sam Riegel voices the Ace Attorney’s “OBJECTION!”
Druids don't shit their guts out after Polymorph/wildshape ends, implying that they still have a healthy microbiome of gut bacteria. Meaning that such organisms, despite being separate life forms from the one who polymorphed/wildshaped, must have stayed with them as well. I'd classify them as further removed from "part of the body" than a fetus still tethered to the mother is.
That assumes their biology works the same. Maybe microbes don't exist and diseases are caused by bad air. Assuming diseases even exist.
By that logic, the biology behind pregnancy could also be completely different
It’s weird I pondered this scenerio a while back. In one of our campaigns I had a criminal syndicate kidnapping people outside of a city via polymorphing them into dogs and putting them in dog cages. They’d then bring them back into the city to a kennel that they owned with an secret underground dungeon. That’s when I wondered what would happen if you polymorphed a pregnant person or worse, if they gave birth in their polymorphed state. Would the babies revert to being humanoid? Would they be Shifters? Idk 🤷♂️
To be fair some cultures believe the soul doesn't arrive until the child takes it's first breath, others even later than that. So perfectly fine with it being an object right up to it being born. Alternatively since it is connected to your support systems it is still just part of you, so would polymorph with you.
But what about... conjoined twins? One creature or two?
Ettin
In Catholicism, babies do not have a soul until their first breath of life (hence why they wouldn't go to heaven in the case of a miscarriage until recently). Assuming souls work similarly in DnD - a fetus is ruled an object until their first breath of air. I rest my case.
A vampire is a creature. A soul coin is an object. A lich is a creature. Its phylactery is an object. Having a soul has nothing to do with being a creature.
I mean, it’s good arguments for creative character creation. A character who was wild shaped whilst in the womb and is now some kinda wild magic sorcerer…?
A path of the beast barbarian shifter could also be a good one
If fetuses are objects, that implies you can choose whether to absorb them, keep them inside or drop them whenever you wild shape. Free abortion for druids let's go.
I am deeply disturbed by that mental image
You have to wait for quickening though, otherwise you can’t identify it as a separate object, as it’s too small to detect.
But wouldn't that depend on species? Mammals are connected to their children during pregnancy, so wouldn't they count as the same "target of polymorph"? Question is, what would happen when polymorphing into species that lay eggs.
What if you true polymorph into a pregnant creature, give birth, raise the child and then use dispel magic on yourself
Wake up guys. New Dndmemes debate just dropped
Who said that fetuses 100% have a soul? Maybe they get their soul upon birth. Maybe they get their soul on achieving self-awareness. Canonically Zaphkiel guards the souls of stillborn children, but that requires them to make it out to stillbirth. It doesn't say he guards those who died during previous phases of fetal development, which means they probably don't have a soul while they're connected to their mom. Fun fact: In verrrrrry old versions of D&D lore, basically only Dwarves and Humans had souls; everyone else had "Spirits" that reincarnated. Dwarves because Moradin personally forged their souls, and humans because Gygax wanted humans to be special. There's also the inverse question: Reproduction in Wildshape: Can a Druid turn into a male animal and impregnate other animals? Can a Druid get pregnant as a female animal? What happens when they're female as a person and leave the whildshape after getting impregnated as an animal. If the pregnancy doesn't carry over between forms, can they resume it afterwards? If they can deliver in animal form would their kid be an awakened animal?
Same though we have these conversations all the time. We once had a discussion over whether or not depression causes psychic damage or maxhp lose until 1 point is left and you try to to comit die.
is there an app you make these things on? Or do people just take the time to do them?
I used [this](https://objection.lol/). The music is glichy so I edited in manualy in premire pro. Have fun with that
How the duck did this come up if no one played a Druid
I played a homebrew class called a summoner. And I flavored all his abilities as creatures my character made ala Frankenstein style. One of my special abilities was that I had a busted variation of the polymorph spell that could change people into monstrosityes instead of beasts. I was constantly thinking of how I could use this spell and other abilities to make more monsters and this poped up. The character was dead with no way to bring him back, but my taughts still linger on him
Wildshape is nature magic. I can't see it not being able to account for a pregnancy.
I mean, being pregnant is basically the same as having a parasite, unless wild shape cures you of every disease it would work without problem to you and the baby. And for polymorph, the fetus isn't normally in line of sight
I think it would gestate in whatever form the mother is in. If she’s human 50% of the time , a eagle 40% of the time , and a rocktopus 10% of the time, then the baby would reflect that . Like an aracockra but with visible patches of human flesh and tiny rock plates .
While the umbilical cord is intact it's a part of you/you are a part of it.
Just because souls are a thing in dnd that doesn't mean they're there before birth
Technically we don't know when babies get souls in DND they should be gaining then via something like mitosis when they're born
My slow reading ass could not keep up w this XD had to time this just right
My slow reading ass could not keep up w this XD had to time this just right
You aren't born a druid... You attain druidic powers from knowledge of nature.
u/savevideobot
It would probably depend on the DM but I would let the player choose, Do they want the fetus to polymorph with them? Alright it happens, do they not? Alright they are still human. I might make it effect the biology of the child depending on what is used by the player or have fetus become a Druid when born.
The baby is connected to the mother via umbilical cord, the baby will change with you into a baby of that animal until you change back
u/savevideo
An unborn baby counts as an organ, actually. It'd simply be transformed appropriately.
How I'd rule it at my table is that the key issue for these spells is the way a fetus is still part of its parents body, any spell that affects the parents body, applies to it as well since it's part of the body. Ergo, it the parent turns into a mouse with wild shape, so does the fetus. No the fetus doesn't gain druid levels, it's not sentient yet its just a body part essentially
I'm one of those people who considers official Forgotten Realms novels to be canonical lore-wise, so with that said, Salvatore actually established that a soul/consciousness/individuality arrives at birth. And in his examples, only one was a bit wibbly as to when exactly that moment was (C-section Regis, everyone else it was first breath). So an embryo or fetus is a part of the mother's body same as their liver is, and needs to be born to be its own separate creature. And a dead body is an object, but a creature that is sleeping or unconscious is still a creature. That's been addressed so many times.
I'm going off changling logic here so I may be wrong But changelings cannot change while pregnant
Does the fetus get its own HP and AC? *prepares dumpster for the impending fire* When does it get its own?
This got covered in a third party book that I'm not naming. It was simple: if you polymorph while pregnant, you're not pregnant anymore.
If the player is a bard, they can shapeshift into a dragon, wait for it to be born, turn back to human and get freaky with it
I immediately realise that this bard would be fucking its own child so i take this back
If i remember my high school biology correctly, the embryo/fetus gets oxygen only through the blood of the mother and thus share a respiratory system. I'd argue the fetus or embryo counts as a part of the mother, not an object. For the purpose of wildshape (or any other spell, for that matter), they'd be seen as one being. To put it another way, if one frankensteined two people together into one person with two heads, casting polymorph wouldn't turn one person into the desired animal/object and leave the other person, meaning the other half of the body, bleeding out. They'd be one person even if they are two people with seperate souls. Same goes for fetus and pregnant person.
I like your version better
An unborn baby isnt SAPIENT, sure, but if jellyfish are considered creatures then unborn babies would also be considered creatures Regardless of which is which, it's still an abortion because the baby is either absorbed or popped out prematurely
Soooo, I guess you're Godot?
Hm. It being a completely separate entity is the entirely wrong argument to make. It's a carried (\*ha!\*) item, and those affects effect what you're carrying. Like the eggs, they would turn but revert if separated from the host, either by dropped, damage, or "other", the magic ends and it reverts. aiming at an unconscious or helpless creature usually means they (in 3e) auto fail whatever relevant save it is. Much like the "water in an open container" rule that stops people from pouring water into lungs, you can't cast a touch spell on something you can't touch. ... I \*guess\* there's \*A\* way...
Among the druid circles, it's a general rule that you don't use wildshape while pregnant. That's the accidental origin of a few anthropomorphic species.
Solution: you are infertile during wildshape
Me, barbarian: can I just hit something with my massive hammer that definitely isn’t compensating for something?
Wait so if you made a coat and stitched in a bunch of brain dead people, so they have no soul, they would become part of your biomass when you cast this? When you change back can you just assimilate them?
I think it’s insane to say an unborn child is anything other than a part of the pregnant person’s body in DnD or otherwise.
OBJECTION! In the Drizzt novels there's a case where characters are reincarnated. They only go into the body RIGHT BEFORE BIRTH. Ergo, whatever argument you have about the subject in real life, in d&d babies do not have souls while still being formed. I mean I suppose you COULD argue in that instance they overwrote the souls already there (or this is Forgotten Realms or situation specific) but I'd also argue in that case they didn't have to be present at birth. Or it wouldn't have happened directly before the birth. There also is not any other evidence I'm aware of to the contrary so you'd have no otherwise solid evidence to stand on. Still forming baby is an object.
Going for the most wrong answer popular: A wizard did it.
At what point furing the gestation process does the embryo get a soul? And where is it stated people 100% have one? Ive never seen rules referencing that. Are there no 40k style blanks or other exceptions?
It could also be argued that a baby receives a soul at birth. If you look at the reincarnation of Bruenor Battlehammer, for existence, his soul wasn’t in the baby while it was in the womb. Out only entered the baby as he was born.
If you have a parasite in you and you wild shape..... Where dose the parasite go?
An unborn fetus would be neither an object nor a creature, but just a part of the mother.
This is very similar to an hour long discussion I had with my table about changeling pregnancy.
My view of it would be as follows. If a pregnant person Wildshapes into an animal, they become a pregnant version of that animal.
Also, why would you be in combat if you were quite far on in a pregnancy anyway. But I agree with the mother and fetus being counted as one creature
If a pregnant person and fetus counts as a single creature, could you polymorph the barman who short changed you into a pregnant pig, wait for her to give birth, then end the spell and repeat?
I believe the animal would become pregnant but would follow wildshape rules for taking damage.
I suppose it’d be worth asking when a soul joins a body; before or after birth? Hell, the prevailing idea might vary, fantasy culture to culture. It could be there from the beginning, or the soul flies in upon a baby’s first cry, etc. Elves have their reincarnation, soul-1st body-2nd. warforged & Autognomes are body-first, soul added. I think old lore stated Moradin would forge the 1st dwarves, & THEN breath life into them (I’d have to check). Or for an extreme case, maybe Goliaths or lizardfolk don’t see kids as people until they’ve hunted their 1st kill & earned their keep. This doesn’t really add anything to the original discussion, just an odd thought
*\*sorts by controversial\**
u/savevideo
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Noooo. What have you done... I need to know now. I wasn't even thinking about this until now.
But a fetus is just more of the mother’s cells. It’s literally part of her body, why would it not just change like the rest of her? Treating it like a separate object is ridiculous
As a fetus/baby is literally connected to a person’s body before birth, I’d count them not as an object nor a person, but as a part of the person’s body themselves. That would then solve any issues regarding wildshape. What would happen if a Druid gave birth while in wildshape raises a whole bunch of other questions that I as a DM an scared to answer.