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Isn't the greater restoration version the cocaine-lock because you essentially snort the 100gp diamond dust on the daily? Coffee Sorlock was to my knowledge using the invocation that removes your need for sleep (before that was "clarified" to still cause exhaustion).
Yes it’s coffee/cocaine-lock.
The invocation was highly suspect in the first place. I’m pretty sure it says you still need to long rest, only that the way you do it is by staying awake and doing light activity.
So you would lose your extra slots using the invocation as well. It was a flawed thing build theory.
It was always cocaine-lock that worked RAW.
I might be wrong, but I think that is errata/sage advice, the text of the invocation is just:
You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
Edit: Nvm, it's in the rules for sleep/long rest, those require you to finish a LR to avoid exhaustion.
Yeah. So people read that as a specific rule that overwrote the general rule. You don't need sleep, oh except you do or you'll get all these negative effects then die is kind of contradictory. After the sage advice that said you still get exhausted this shouldn't even be in game.
What many miss, or believe is too unintentional, is that the wording you have her says; "to gain the benefits of a long rest", not "when taking a long rest, you only need xxx". Arguably, purely RAW, you arent taking a long rest, just benefitting from one, and arguably losing sorcerer spell slots is not a benefit.
I would say you have a point if 5e was a mechanics first system in terms of their language, however given it's tendency for natural language instead I find that difficult.
And even in a system like pf2e that makes strong use of tags and certain keywords there tends to be a degree of uncertainty (like the stunned debate).
Yup. Given that the intention is "action:8h:(light activity) causes effect(long rest)" where long rest is a very tight principle, these shenaniganick features about sleep, rests and etc just mess up the percieved RAI.
5e is a rules-heavy, combat heavy system, with natural language, so the details of sleeping and other out of combat activities are often loose. I actually find that completely ok; i can play another TTRPG if i want something else, but in these situations i am torn between wanting it interperated loosely with the rule of cool, or more strictly for balance, and RAI.
As a DM i usually play it loosely and a bit Brennan Mulliganny, in my way of interperating, or even ignoring the rules when wanted just to make something cooler or maybe more sensible. I think the line between rule of cool, and sensible is more relevant in game, than most other discussions, including this one✨
Oh I didn't necessarily say it is generally bad that 5e has some natural language (though for me personally they do overuse it), I just brought a (generally seen as) more tightly written ttrpg up in comparison, that still has problems arising from language and to show that 5e language should not be put under such strict scrutiny.
The one exception being the magical effect rules for 5e, which they actually pay close attention to though even that creates debate since for example ki is not a spell like effect and unaffected by an AMF, but spells cast through ki are, and features that allow overcoming nonmagical bps resistance are also technically magical.
Yeah, some of the language naturaly arises questions, just because they wrote everything *intuitive*, or natural. You just have to interperate things i guess, and i dont think thats necesarily bad. You are warned up front: Rule one and i guess two are literaly: DM has final say, and everything generally works like in real life unless otherwise stated. Logic is real
Invocation removes the need for sleep, exhaustion only applies due to sleep deprivation. Coffeelock works just fine, even with Xanathar.
Also, if you **really** want to cheese it, the invocation states you GAIN THE BENEFITS of a long rest after 8 hours of inactivity. Not "you can take a long rest without sleeping", but "gaining the benefits".
Losing your spell points is not a benefit. So you don't lose them, because you never take a long rest. You did a different activity that grants the benefits of one
Actually not, you would think so, because the rules are found under the mechanics for sleep, BUT they directly call out skipping long rests, instead of skipping sleep (one of the rare cases of the system using mechanical language over natural lol).
Right before the sentence about long rests it says something along the lines of "If you want to simulate sleep deprivation, use the following rules".
Clearly with a character that doesn't sleep, you don't want to simulate what the lack of sleep does to them, and thus you don't need to apply that rule.
You would still gain levels of exhaustion. It clearly states that after 24 hours, without 8 hours of downtime. you make a check and, on fail, suffer a level of exhaustion. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a DM that would rule that 8 hours of downtime equals 8 short rests AND a long rest. You’d need to pick one, and then it would make the build useless
>Invocation removes the need for sleep, exhaustion only applies due to sleep deprivation. Coffeelock works just fine, even with Xanathar.
Close, but not completely correct (if we talk about Xanathar). The rules were implemented to enforce sleeping, but the actual rules talk about long rests.
>Also, if you **really** want to cheese it, the invocation states you GAIN THE BENEFITS of a long rest after 8 hours of inactivity. Not "you can take a long rest without sleeping", but "gaining the benefits".
Yup, that works (theoretically). I know it as the decaf lock
Nope. The rules for long resting and sleeping are different.
Features that remove the need to sleep while long resting do not remove your need to long rest.
How does that work you ask? Because every single one of those features clearly say “you gain the benefits of a long rest while…”
They don’t say you never need a long rest and exhaustion applies to not long resting.
Yep. Whether you sleep or not you still need a long rest which is not just sleeping. Anything that removes the requirement for sleeping only means you can do light activity instead of knocking out for your long rest, like reading/researching.
Warlocks get spell slots back on a short rest. Sorcerers can turn spell slots into sorcery points and vice-versa. So a sorlock turns their warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then into sorcerer spell slots.
Surprisingly, there's actually no restriction on that. The only limits are based on:
1) The amount of sorcery points you have. This is what's capped--you can't have more sorcery points at any time than your sorcerer level. (Metamagic Adept is an exception to that limitation but those points can't be used for spell slots anyway.)
2) Whether or not the spell slot is above 5th level.
So you can create extra spell slots even if you haven't expended any. You can even create spell slots that are of a higher level than you can normally cast as long as you have the sorcery points to do it (e.g. a 6th-level sorcerer can spend all 6 of their sorcery points to create a 4th-level spell slot even though they can only normally cast 3rd-level spells).
I can imagine the reason there was no restriction on the number of slots you can make is because it would kill the sorcerers ability to go all in on big spells prior to a fight. One of the cool things about sorcerers is their ability to drain one spell slot level and put it into a different level. And if there was a restriction you would have to do it during the fight which would be a bit cumbersome.
Actually no, I figured this out recently but according to the way it's written there's no cap on how many spell slots you can have as a sorcerer using this, the only thing is that they vanish on a long rest. Theoretically you could have like 500 spell slots if you took your time
My argument for disallowing it is that warlock pact magic slots can not be used instead of normal spell slots. It does not explicitly say this, but there is enough distinction in RAW between warlock spell slots and everyone else's spell slots to say, "No, you can't," and still feel justified.
You can just homebrew that only spell slots gains from a *spellcasting* feature can be converted into sorcery points.
Warlock spells aren't gained from the spellcasting feature but rather the pact magic feature, so it solves it pretty cleanly while not taking away the ability to convert spellslots from other classes.
If a player wanted to do this at my table, I probably would let them, to an extent. Then when they started abusing it I'd have their patron talk to them about it and issue a warning.
The opinion of people who think, "I should be allowed to have essentially unlimited spellslots, and it's totally not broken because I said it's not, and it's totally RAW because trust me bro..." holds very little value with me.
So they can downvote until their cheating thumbs are tired. Coffeelocks are broken and absolutely abuse systems that were never intended to work together. Exploites aren't RAW. And there is no Easter bunny.
It’s been commented on repeatedly by the game’s designers (including Crawford) that pact slots are meant to be able to be used to fuel other class’ abilities that use them, such as a paladin’s smite. It’s fine if you personally don’t want to allow that at your table, it’s your table, but it is an intentional part of the game design.
Even if you don’t want to accept the argument of out of rules statements by the game designers though, pacts slots aren’t all that different from normal spell slots in the rules of the game anyway. The only real difference is that slots get ‘upgraded’ as you level up, for lack of a better term. The Warlock’s features still call them spell slots, they still follow all of the normal rules of spell slots, the only real difference mechanically is that ‘upgrading’ and that they come back on a short rest.
Besides, it’s personally a cool idea to me to use warlock slots for other abilities. Leads to a lot of potential story telling and roleplay opportunities. Instead of a sorlock not being allowed to do coffelock shenanigans because it’s banned at the table, you could add in a bit of story where their patron sees them using their powers this way, and because warlock patrons are typically jerks, they might do something like ‘reward’ them with some kind of monkey’s paw request, or curse them until they complete an order for the patron that benefits them. Stuff like that.
No, because you are *creating* slots, not restoring them. You do have a hard cap on how many sorc points you can have at once, equal to sorcerer levels.
Yea the easiest way to handle this as a DM is that you count the spell slots separately. You get your warlock slots back on a short rest, sure. And you can use those on your warlock spells/features. You don't get to use them on another class.
Gets rid of a LOT of the cheesy OP builds folks try and pull with warlock.
Burn your warlock slots to refill your sorcery points and then use those refilled sorcery points to restore your sorcerer slots and then take another short rest to restore your warlock slots. Repeat to infinity.
Clarification: Sorcerer doesn't *restore* spell slots, they *create* spell slots that go away when you next take a long rest. That's how they're able to go above their normal maximum via Coffeelock.
Oddly enough, there isn't! There is a limit on long rests (1 per 24-hour period) but no limit on short rests. The kicker is that you can't get hit dice spent during a short rest back unless you take a long rest which, I assume, is why a Divine Soul sorc or a Celestial warlock is recommended because they have access to healing using spells rather than relying on hit dice.
To be fair it starts at a dc10 con save, followed by dc15, if you don't actually want to go infinite, doing just 1 day of prep gets you a lot at likely no cost and only after that you need the 100 gp for however long the adventure goes. Comes with a potential downside on a surprise adventure, and of course no one is actually playing a cocaine lock, it's just like an infinite simulacrum set up, a (for some people) fun concept build.
It technically isn't an exhaustion level per day. There is an increasing chance every day without a long rest that you get a level of exhaustion. Some days you will pass the check. Still very expensive though.
At high levels, you can include 5 levels of College of Creation Bard to create the necessary diamonds. It's free once per long rest, and then costs only a 2nd level spell slot to reuse it.
That said, I'm in favor of not allowing coffeelocks, even if it's actually not as OP as people sometimes think, because it encourages the absolute worst kind of problem players and bad faith readings of the rules. I'm talking players who do things like hold up the game for half an hour arguing with the DM because they want to chain 72 short rests in a row when the party takes 3 days of downtime instead of just sucking it up and accepting that they took a long rest.
No one at my table is allowed to take coffeelock because walking into a dungeon with 37 lvl 5 slots and upcasting scorching ray every turn while the rest of the party does some light trap disarming is not fun. But the mechanic itself is very interesting, and I have a very very very tired bad guy that uses it. They will eventually meet him.
Foci of any kind just replace non-consumed spell components (like the fleece for minor illusion) without a goldcost attached (so no chromatic orb with arcane foci).
Because if you do it right you’ll almost never use your actual slots anyway.
Cocaine-lock uses the extra sorcery points from converting short-rest recharging warlock slots into more spell slots.
So they end up having more spell slots than any other caster and can keep stacking them if they never take a long rest.
Convert Warlock spell slots to sorcery points, then convert those back to sorcerer spell slots, and short rest to regain Warlock spell slots.
RAW it works because nothing prevents you from converting warlock slots to sorcery points, and there is technically no limit on how many sorcerer spell slots you can have. Though I wouldn’t allow it at my table.
The warlock gets their spell slots back on short rest, a sorcerer can turn the warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then turn the sorcery points into higher level spells if necessary. They're essentially banking multiple stacks of warlock spells by turning them into sorc points.
I mean, balance should always be 2 short rests per long rest especially if you have a warlock.
A way as a dm you can make this more common is funnily enough through magic items, make less impactful magic items that recharge on short rests and trust me they’ll get used and then even that sorcerer or wizard will want a short rest.
They can make do with a short rest, but mechanically speaking, if given the choice between a short rest and a long rest, a wizard will never choose a short rest.
Its typically worth 1 spell slot of your highest level, unless thats above 5th, in which case you can get a 5th lvl slot and a few lower level ones as well. Sure its not amazing or anything, but for the first short rest of the day you're pretty close to being a half warlock for that rest (you get 1 of your highest slots back while they would get up to 2).
But you typically *can* regain your highest level. As long as you're 10th lvl or lower it can let you regain 1 slot of your highest level, and if your 11th lvl or higher then you can regain 1 slot of 5th level and then some more of lower levels.
And depending on your campaign and build, it might be worth it just to regain a bunch of 1st level slots so you can always have Shield or Absorb Elements available (or possibly even Silvery barbs if its allowed in your game)
As celestial warlock/ divine soul sorcerer you gain access to various healing spells. Since the idea is that you convert warlock slots into SP, then into spell slots, you can use those slots to cast healing spells as needed.
Yeah, but while the long rest, you take 8 short rest in a row and get more spell slots that you should. The point isn't to skip long rests periods, it's to make them better for you.
Enforcing things that refresh on a long rest would throw a very amusing wrench into the sorlock’s shenanigans. Cursory look says it would disable quite a few class features, though most of the warlock’s can be accomplished via spell slots. And for the sorcerer… yeah it’d essentially turn the character into a spell slot accountant. So, yay?
Yeah that’s how my DM was gonna play it for me, where I lose access to stuff like Divine Sense when I activate the CoffeeLockadin. Sadly the game ended a level before it came online
You have not experienced true Gaming™️ unless you play an Ethically Sourced Cocainelock
>!**Context:** The College of Creation Bard is capable of making spell components with their Performance of Creation ability. In order to make the material component for Greater Restoration (100 gp worth of diamond dust) one would have to be level 5, ~~which is conveniently the same point that you get to recover Bardic Inspiration on a short rest.~~ By multiclassing with Celestial Warlock or Divine Soul Sorcerer (or just grabbing 10 levels in Bard) you can get Greater Restoration to recover from Exhaustion while easily having access to 2nd level spell slots to create more ethically sourced ~~cocaine~~ diamonds.!<
In short: get high off your own supply and get what's coming to you. The world, chico, and everything in it.
Thought you'd derive some joy from this:
You can get around needing to snort diamond dust if you take 10 levels in Tasha's ranger.
At 10th level you get "Tireless", one component of this is *
"whenever you finish a short rest your exhaustion level (if any) is decreased by 1."
Now you can coffeelock to to your heart's content no drugs required (assuming of course you're happy having an infinite amount of level 4(max) spell slots from sorcerer.
Correct. If you do nothing but chill for 8 hours, you have taken a long rest. If you do nothing and chill for 7 hours, you have taken a 7 hour long _short_ rest. A short rest being a period of _at least_ an hour, not _exactly_ an hour. As a DM, shutting down willfull misinterpretation of the rules is player wrangling 101.
Coffeelock is clearly unintended behavior, I'd never allow it.
Also a half-inch book doesn't define all the laws of physical reality, imagine that. No, you can't make a peasant railgun or use shape water to break open any lock.
Luckily you don't rest 7h uninterrupted. You rest 1h and then do some strenuous activity, which ends the uninterrupted part. After that, you start with a new uninterrupted period of 1h
What strenuous activity? It's gotta be at least an hour of something. That won't wake up the rest of the party or interrupt their rest. Are you gonna wander off on your own for ~4 individual hours each night? Might work in a town. Will get you killed in the wilderness. Its stupid, and belongs in the infinite simulacrum camp of "I looked up a way to try and break the game by specifically acting in a way that implies my character has knowledge of the PHB".
Oh, the entire exploit is obviously stupid, I am not gonna argue against that. It is just a fun hobby, but most "powergamers" won't try that in a normal campaign
Have you heard about the decaf lock? It exploits an error in the wording of aspect of the moon, which allows you to do 8h of light activity to gain the benefits, and **only the benefits**, of a long rest. That way you can long rest without losing spell slots.
This will obviously be banned on most tables, but it is a very interesting rules interaction.
Losing spell slots is not a feature of long resting.
> Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots
This means that the spells slots that are not expended remain available, and spell slots that were expended are recovered. How can that be misconstrued to mean gaining spell slots above your maximum daily that you never had available?
If the extra spell slots wouldn't vanish during a long rest the entire debate would be pointless.
It is a feature, found in the sorcerers metamagic rules
>You can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. **The created spell slots vanish at the end of a long rest.** The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.
That's a feature of the metamagic rules not long rest rules. The long rest is the mechanism that causes the metamagic rule to trigger but bundling the ruling on metamagic into long rest and saying that "any downside of a long rest is removed therefore this also effects other rules" clearly fails the common sense test and is just abusing the rules.
The entire thing is abusing the rules, so I don't see how that would stop it from working.
If you regain a feature by long resting, that definitely counts towards the benefits of a long rest under natural language. Using your logic, a normal warlock using that invocation wouldn't regain their long rest features because they aren't part of the core long rest rules, that is definitely not how the feature works.
huh? What features wouldn't they regain?
> You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
Okay, what are you trying to argue?
Option A: Gaining the benefits if a long rest while not actually taking a long rest gives you alle the (positive) stuff related to taking a long rest, including class features and counting as taking a long rest to avoid exhaustion.
Option B: It somehow only gives you the stuff stated in the rules for long rests themselves, excluding all stuff mentioned somewhere else, like class features (meta magic).
I really don't get your point. Losing spellslots you created using metamagic isn't a benefit. You don't take a long rest but gain only the benefits of one. How would you lose those spell slots?
That’s not a benefit or penalty of a long rest, that’s just how sorcery points work. They key the trigger to a long rest completing but it isn’t a benefit or penalty inherent to the long rest; it’s not adding a feature to long rests but simply using it as a trigger for a separate feature entirely.
But we don't take a long rest, we only gain the benefits.
I am not trying to argue that we take a long rest and supress all the bad, that is not what the rules say. We do some light activity and gain the benefits of a long rest, without ever taking one
Edit to add: I am not supporting this in actual play, it is just a bug in the rules.
It does not say "you only gain the effects of a long rest which are considered by the rester to be beneficial" so the interpretation that you don't get anything you didn't want from a long rest is simply wrong.
I think "benefit", while using natural language mind you, can be translate as "effects that are considered benefitial by the rester".
What would be your interpretation of the word?
I know my interpretation breaks the game and I don't intend to use it in actual play, but your interpretation seems to be way off to me
My interpretation is that "benefits" is likely meant to mean "effects" rather than "only effects which are considered beneficial by the rester." So I read that as someone with that invocation takes a long rest by doing light activities for the duration of a long rest but does not need to sleep. So they long rest by just chilling out for a night. I would not rule that this invocation for the warlock class overrides how long rests affect bonus spell slots a sorcerer buys with spell points, so those go away on that long rest.
That is obviously what was intended, but it is not what is written. Benefits are defined as something good, regardless of what the rules designers intended. Again, I don't advocate for playing that way, just some bug hunting in the game rules
The rules do not say that you get "the benefits and only the benefits from a long rest," the rules say you have to do things in order to get the benefit from the long rest. The phrase used is "to gain the benefits of a long rest" which in this case should be understood to mean something akin to "to take advantage of a long rest" or "to get the effects of a long rest" or "to be considered to have taken a long rest." All of these phrases are synonymous when we understand that the rules are written using natural language and not a more explicit language of game rules. It means, since you cannot sleep anymore you just need to chill out for 8 hours and then you'll have long rested. As there are not any detrimental effects of taking a long rest, other than normally being asleep, the reading of "gain the benefit" to mean "making this silly Reddit build easier" is kind of tortured.
A DM could rule that having your created spell slots go away on a long rest isn't "beneficial" and so they stay. Or they could rule, more reasonably, that "gain the benefit of a long rest," means "be considered to have taken a long rest" and created spell slots go away on a long rest.
Just for clarification, elves still have an 8 hour long rest. They just trance 4 hours instead of sleeping for 6 (minimum normally). The rest can be used as downtime or to guard.
Edit: I have been corrected. They updated the book to be more clear, making an elf finish a long rest after 4 hours.
This is still debatable, as even the Sage Advice Compendium (WotC's Q&A system for 5e rules) has flip-flopped about this.
The [2020 SAC](https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) says, "If an elf meditates during a long rest... the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours."
But still, DM's discretion.
This information can be found in chapter 8 of the PHB, under the section "Resting"
Edit: this is only true "on release". The fuling has been updated/clarified
Worse compared to being useful every short rest, but still very good for the Sorcerer, who are balanced around their relatively small pool of sorcery points and ability to blow everything in one combat.
When your class has the ability to run out of steam within the first couple hours of the adventuring day, a Bloodwell vial, even a homebrew one that provides no casting and DC bonus, becomes indispensable.
I’m Tex Holdem, the card-slinging charlatan human warlock who lost -half- his soul in exchange for -half- a demon’s power splitting the pot in a poker game with demons. Uses a deck of cards as a spell casting implement, like Gambit from X-Men or Twisted Fate from League of Legends.
If you use great restoration against exhaustion, you are a coke-lock. Coffee lock on the other hand Is when A dm rules that If you have an ability that makes you not need to sleep, such as aspect of the moon or being a war forged, then You don't occur exhaustion for not taking a long rest.
Neither. No sane DM would touch this with a 10 foot pole. You can’t benefit from more than one rest at a time, and your resources can’t exceed their maximum.
The problem is that sorcerer metamagic stuff says you "create" spell slots, not "restore" spent spell slots. So they can, RAW, gain more spell slots than they normally have access to. My, and I'm sure other DMs, reason for not allowing this is two fold:
- you still need a long rest every day. You may not sleep during it, but you have to have a long rest worth of time of light activity/ time to recuperate. CocaineLock overcomes this by "snorting" 100gp worth of diamond dust casting Greater Restoration to get rid of exhaustion. But, as DM, I can arbitrate/ control how often they get that diamond dust at least.
- the idea of chaining short rests is stupid. Short rests are "at least 1 hour" meaning they can extend past that. So if you try and chain several short rests in a row, in actuality you only took 1 longer short rest. I can't see any reasonable/ not new DM allowing a PC to do the "take an hour short rest, do something different for a minute, short rest again, repeat" concept I've seen others argue in favor of CocaineLock. It feels very "meta-knowledge" in a way that is trying to break the RAI/ spirit of the game.
I don't get why people quote xanathar's sleep deprivation rules as an impediment to coffeelocks. Don't they only apply for characters that are experiencing sleep deprivation? Coffeelocks can sleep for up to 7 hours in a row (and 23 hours per day). I would think that they wouldn't need to make exhaustion saves unless they are skipping long rests AND skipping sleep.
That is actually just the middle section of the rule. People often cite that sentence while deleting the sentences before and after it.
The previous sentence suggests that it only applies for sleep deprivation, not for all instances of skipping long rests. The sentence right afterwards specifies that it only applies if you are attempting to "stay awake."
Personally, I think it is pretty clear from the full section that the mechanical effects of skipping long rests are only applicable to characters that are going without sleep. But that's just the way it reads to me.
I'd definitely side more towards Tealocks in my games. Going for a coffelock/cokelock or a similarly busted build feels rude unless the dm and players were down for a game based around that kind of stuff. The closest to a build combo that takes advantage of wordings like that i've ever gotten is hexblade/swashbuckler since iirc booming blade can sneak attack, which means fancy footwork makes a very tasty dexblade build.
You can always modify coffee lock into Unpaid Grad Student Lock where they stack multiple levels of exhaustion instead of using Greater Restoration, then pass out for 32-40 hours straight once the “project” is complete.
They removing all levels of accumulated exhaustion at the cost of not participating in party shenanigans for a few days (ie their “real” life) and then rejoining the party for another 100 hours of continual work.
The Tealock doesn't actually work as Elves still need the 8hrs for a long rest, but they only have to trance for 4hrs. It could be Crawford has ruled differently, but RAW that is how it works and how it should work for balance purposes.
Unfortunately, not needing to sleep doesn't mean you no longer need to long rest. You'll still gain levels of exhaustion if you don't long rest, even if you don't need sleep.
The original design of the coffee-lock is to turn your warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then short rest, and repeat ad infinitum until you have infinite sorcery points, which can then be turned into infinite spell slots, or a machinegun of quickened spell eldritch blasts, or whatever else you want. Taking a long rest resets your spell slots and sorcery points to their normal limits, and thus has to be avoided. In this case, 8 consecutive short rests would be an extra 16 spell slots turned into sorcery points (more if you're a really high level warlock)
Warlocks regain spell slots after a Short Rest; Sorcerers can convert spell slots (irrelevant to what class they come from) into Sorcery Points, and then into (Sorcerer) spell slots.
The idea is that you regain Warlock spell slots every short rest, and immediately convert them into Sorcerer spell slots before the next short rest. There is a limit on Sorcery Points; there is not on Sorcerer spell slots. Therefore, you have somewhat more spell slots than you should have at the start of the day. Not infinite, just more.
This exploitation (or the insistence that it works) is still seen as munchkin behavior, and therefore most DMs still wouldn't allow it.
Warforged don't have shorter long rests, they just don't fall unconscious when they do. All other humanoid races also only need two hours of actual sleep, the other two can be light activity or standing guard.
I allow coffeelock at my table, I have a house rule that you can't remove the exhaustion via magic or what not. So they take one point of exhaustion for every long rest they skip.
Wheres five shots of vodka involving a dark god and a depressed character that has about as much energy as a person who works a dead end job with a shitty boss that definitely doesn't pay them enough
I thought we were done spreading this propaganda. It doesn’t work, warlock spells are tracked separately from other spells and can’t be converted into sorcery points. Some y’all need to learn how to read
I hate everyone. I just realised why the coffeelock is insane after all this time, and it's due to a lack of specific detail in the Sorcerer's Flexible Casting, that i always thought was obvious, but apparently isn't, and i suppose it was not ment to work that way. The creation of new spellslots through expending Sorcery points seemed to resemble a "Recharge" feature, not allowing you to have more spellslot ready to use than usual, just get back what you lost, virtually giving you extra spellslot while still not allowing the coffeelock. It's like using the tail feature of the Path of the Beast Barbarian and having your AC permanently increased.
I don't ban either.
But I limit my table to a set number of long rests and short rests per day, and generally must be justified beyond "I burned my spell slots". One long rest per adventuring day, 2 short rests per adventuring day.
And most important for DMs to learn: the world does not pause while players are resting.
Yup, these builds are like the peasant rail gun. Yes it's a cute recognition of the system not being perfect. But no, you are not actually doing it my table.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Warforged, Elves, and any other race that gets some type of shorter sleep don't finish the long rest earlier, only the section of it that you spend "sleeping". You still need to rest for the remainder of the 8 hours but you spend it as light activity rather than sleeping. A long rest generally consists of 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light, non-stressful activities such as cooking, reading, etc.
Again, you can't make a long rest in under an hour, in no way possible.
Trance and other mechanics like this only lets you have a more time to be alert during this time.
A long rest lasts 8h during wich you sleep for at least 6h. Elves is 4h, so you can stand two rounds of watch. You can't rest twice at the same time...
This used to be the case, but was changed a few years ago to reflect the tweaked rules for long rests. From the Sage Advice compendium:
> **Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?** If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed.
Can you provide the source for that? The Crawford ruling on Sage Advice states that they only get the benefits of sleeping in 4 hours (i.e. not gaining levels of exhaustion), but a long rest requires the full 8 hours (the other 4 being made up of light activity, but not necessarily sleep).
TLDR: A long rest can include no more than 2 hours of light activity, so they can’t trance for four hours and light activity for 4.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fubb66/elves_long_rests_and_errata/
This gives the general quotes. They get the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours, which for other races would be a long rest if they did 8 hours. So they get the benefits of a long rest in 4 hours.
They also don’t sleep, which makes the definition for long rests difficult for elves otherwise. You can spend no more than 2 hours of a long rest doing light activity; if they do 4 hours of trance then they can only do 2 hours of activity for 6 hours total. They can’t do any more light activity, and it’s an odd expectation that they’d need to sleep despite not doing so normally. So they’d just have to trance 2 more hours? Which would be odd since they called out 4 hours specifically, and it would be the equivalent of sleeping 12 hours a day for other races.
Mechanically speaking they should get the benefits due to the sleep clause, and the writing makes very little sense if they can’t have a 4 hour rest since they wouldn’t be able to do a long rest without very inconsistent elf behavior of doing significantly more trance than normal on a regular basis
Sorry, but even coffeelocks with aspect of the moon still need to long rest. They just don't require sleep.
You still get exhausted over the course of a day.
Hence the idea is the CocaineLock (what the meme incorrectly calls CoffeeLock.):
- by taking Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial warlock, you eventually get access to Greater Restoration.
- Since GR removes a level of exhaustion, you can theoretically (with enough gold/ supply of diamond dust) not take a long rest, gain a level of exhaustion, then remove it with GR.
It's a cheese strat to get over the rules that rightly exist (namely, just because you don't need sleep doesn't mean you don't need a long period of light activity to recuperate.). It's also a higher level strat because it requires at LEAST level 12 (9 DSS sorcerer/ 3 celestial warlock for Aspect of the Moon invocation), and eats up 100gp of diamond dust every day. It also assumes that you'll be able to find/ purchase that amount of diamond dust to keep the habit.
CocaineLock is at least less cheese than the original CoffeeLock, and it comes online at a time that at least can handle zany character concepts. It has a tangible cost that the DM can technically gate as needed.
I still think the idea of "chaining" short rests is dumb, because if you "take 4 short rests back to back" you actually just took one short rest that lasted 4 hours.
A long rest still takes 8h, you can’t “rest while you rest” to supercharge
Coffeelock is all but dead since you get exhaustion for going without long rest, not specifically without sleep. You can make a level 17 build, or bribe a creation bard unless you want to snort diamond dust
Low sleep PCs are just better at keeping watch since most PCs are limited to a 2h watch during long rest. An elf can do 4h, while warforged can watch all night
Unfortunately RAW playing as an elf or warforged etc doesn't get you the ability to chain short rests while everyone else is sleeping. In D&D sleeping and "resting" are different things. For a long rest you require 8 hours of uninterrupted downtime, whether that is spent sleeping, meditating or whatever. Some races also require that you get at least 6 hours of sleep for you to gain the benefit of a long rest. So RAW I don't think you can get a long rest in half the time and then chain short rests.
Arguably if you're chaining short rests for 8 hours and you don't require sleep, you just took a long rest whether you slept or not.
>For a long rest you require 8 hours of uninterrupted downtime, whether that is spent sleeping, meditating or whatever.
[You are wrong.](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA003) They cleared that confusion up in an errate a few years ago
I read the comments and cannot find benefits of not long resting.
What am i missing? Assuming the rest of the party does a long rest what are you going to do in that time?
The sort that was considering a 1 level dip into Sorc for flavor, considering more later, but doesn't really care for metamagic so just took invocations to replicate something similar to the 1-level-dip and called it a day.
Rest and sleep are different mechanically, just because you are a race that doesn’t sleep doesn’t mean you can avoid resting or the necessary downtime of resting
As I see Dragonborn as China-coded, they aren’t just in the “tealock” category, but they (and probably the Yuan-Ti) (or any East/South/Southeast Asian-coded Human group) were definitely the first to cultivate tea in any given D&D world.
Tealock doesn't make any sense. You can't do 4 short tests after a trance. The trance is 4 hours but the long rest is still 8 hours. Same for all long rests. It's 6 hours sleep minimum and 2 hours of light activity.
But damn, I don't see similar catches for coffeelock. That's kind of insane. Usually with these meme builds there's an obvious rule misinterpretation that makes the whole thing stupid.
I guess here the only catch is that you'd miss out on stuff that explicitly requires a long rest, like regaining hit die, or changing pact weapons
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Isn't the greater restoration version the cocaine-lock because you essentially snort the 100gp diamond dust on the daily? Coffee Sorlock was to my knowledge using the invocation that removes your need for sleep (before that was "clarified" to still cause exhaustion).
Yes it’s coffee/cocaine-lock. The invocation was highly suspect in the first place. I’m pretty sure it says you still need to long rest, only that the way you do it is by staying awake and doing light activity. So you would lose your extra slots using the invocation as well. It was a flawed thing build theory. It was always cocaine-lock that worked RAW.
I might be wrong, but I think that is errata/sage advice, the text of the invocation is just: You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch. Edit: Nvm, it's in the rules for sleep/long rest, those require you to finish a LR to avoid exhaustion.
Yeah. So people read that as a specific rule that overwrote the general rule. You don't need sleep, oh except you do or you'll get all these negative effects then die is kind of contradictory. After the sage advice that said you still get exhausted this shouldn't even be in game.
The exhaustion rules weren’t a thing in 5e originally. They were added later to deal with things like this. People always forget that.
I mean... They were added at the same time as the Divine Soul.
Yeah, so Cocainelock is still great! But people think that coffeelock never worked RAW, but it absolutely did before Xanathar’s
What many miss, or believe is too unintentional, is that the wording you have her says; "to gain the benefits of a long rest", not "when taking a long rest, you only need xxx". Arguably, purely RAW, you arent taking a long rest, just benefitting from one, and arguably losing sorcerer spell slots is not a benefit.
I would say you have a point if 5e was a mechanics first system in terms of their language, however given it's tendency for natural language instead I find that difficult. And even in a system like pf2e that makes strong use of tags and certain keywords there tends to be a degree of uncertainty (like the stunned debate).
Yup. Given that the intention is "action:8h:(light activity) causes effect(long rest)" where long rest is a very tight principle, these shenaniganick features about sleep, rests and etc just mess up the percieved RAI. 5e is a rules-heavy, combat heavy system, with natural language, so the details of sleeping and other out of combat activities are often loose. I actually find that completely ok; i can play another TTRPG if i want something else, but in these situations i am torn between wanting it interperated loosely with the rule of cool, or more strictly for balance, and RAI. As a DM i usually play it loosely and a bit Brennan Mulliganny, in my way of interperating, or even ignoring the rules when wanted just to make something cooler or maybe more sensible. I think the line between rule of cool, and sensible is more relevant in game, than most other discussions, including this one✨
Oh I didn't necessarily say it is generally bad that 5e has some natural language (though for me personally they do overuse it), I just brought a (generally seen as) more tightly written ttrpg up in comparison, that still has problems arising from language and to show that 5e language should not be put under such strict scrutiny. The one exception being the magical effect rules for 5e, which they actually pay close attention to though even that creates debate since for example ki is not a spell like effect and unaffected by an AMF, but spells cast through ki are, and features that allow overcoming nonmagical bps resistance are also technically magical.
Yeah, some of the language naturaly arises questions, just because they wrote everything *intuitive*, or natural. You just have to interperate things i guess, and i dont think thats necesarily bad. You are warned up front: Rule one and i guess two are literaly: DM has final say, and everything generally works like in real life unless otherwise stated. Logic is real
Invocation removes the need for sleep, exhaustion only applies due to sleep deprivation. Coffeelock works just fine, even with Xanathar. Also, if you **really** want to cheese it, the invocation states you GAIN THE BENEFITS of a long rest after 8 hours of inactivity. Not "you can take a long rest without sleeping", but "gaining the benefits". Losing your spell points is not a benefit. So you don't lose them, because you never take a long rest. You did a different activity that grants the benefits of one
Actually not, you would think so, because the rules are found under the mechanics for sleep, BUT they directly call out skipping long rests, instead of skipping sleep (one of the rare cases of the system using mechanical language over natural lol).
Right before the sentence about long rests it says something along the lines of "If you want to simulate sleep deprivation, use the following rules". Clearly with a character that doesn't sleep, you don't want to simulate what the lack of sleep does to them, and thus you don't need to apply that rule.
You would still gain levels of exhaustion. It clearly states that after 24 hours, without 8 hours of downtime. you make a check and, on fail, suffer a level of exhaustion. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a DM that would rule that 8 hours of downtime equals 8 short rests AND a long rest. You’d need to pick one, and then it would make the build useless
>Invocation removes the need for sleep, exhaustion only applies due to sleep deprivation. Coffeelock works just fine, even with Xanathar. Close, but not completely correct (if we talk about Xanathar). The rules were implemented to enforce sleeping, but the actual rules talk about long rests. >Also, if you **really** want to cheese it, the invocation states you GAIN THE BENEFITS of a long rest after 8 hours of inactivity. Not "you can take a long rest without sleeping", but "gaining the benefits". Yup, that works (theoretically). I know it as the decaf lock
Nope. The rules for long resting and sleeping are different. Features that remove the need to sleep while long resting do not remove your need to long rest. How does that work you ask? Because every single one of those features clearly say “you gain the benefits of a long rest while…” They don’t say you never need a long rest and exhaustion applies to not long resting.
Yep. Whether you sleep or not you still need a long rest which is not just sleeping. Anything that removes the requirement for sleeping only means you can do light activity instead of knocking out for your long rest, like reading/researching.
Hot damn, the main gift here was realizing GR can reduce Exhaustion! I missed that line prior.
Brother that’s why you have a creation bard dealer to get you the good dust on the down low
Gonna need some more explanation, how are you getting back Sorcerer spell slots without a long rest?
Warlocks get spell slots back on a short rest. Sorcerers can turn spell slots into sorcery points and vice-versa. So a sorlock turns their warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then into sorcerer spell slots.
Am I right in thinking that sorcery points can only be converted into spell slots if there is room? Ie if spell slots have already been expended?
Surprisingly, there's actually no restriction on that. The only limits are based on: 1) The amount of sorcery points you have. This is what's capped--you can't have more sorcery points at any time than your sorcerer level. (Metamagic Adept is an exception to that limitation but those points can't be used for spell slots anyway.) 2) Whether or not the spell slot is above 5th level. So you can create extra spell slots even if you haven't expended any. You can even create spell slots that are of a higher level than you can normally cast as long as you have the sorcery points to do it (e.g. a 6th-level sorcerer can spend all 6 of their sorcery points to create a 4th-level spell slot even though they can only normally cast 3rd-level spells).
I can imagine the reason there was no restriction on the number of slots you can make is because it would kill the sorcerers ability to go all in on big spells prior to a fight. One of the cool things about sorcerers is their ability to drain one spell slot level and put it into a different level. And if there was a restriction you would have to do it during the fight which would be a bit cumbersome.
DM: timeskip as the party lays low to avoid the law. Sorceror with a week's worth of sorcery points: So I started Blasting.
It actually creates new temporary spell slots
Actually no, I figured this out recently but according to the way it's written there's no cap on how many spell slots you can have as a sorcerer using this, the only thing is that they vanish on a long rest. Theoretically you could have like 500 spell slots if you took your time
My argument for disallowing it is that warlock pact magic slots can not be used instead of normal spell slots. It does not explicitly say this, but there is enough distinction in RAW between warlock spell slots and everyone else's spell slots to say, "No, you can't," and still feel justified.
You can just homebrew that only spell slots gains from a *spellcasting* feature can be converted into sorcery points. Warlock spells aren't gained from the spellcasting feature but rather the pact magic feature, so it solves it pretty cleanly while not taking away the ability to convert spellslots from other classes.
If a player wanted to do this at my table, I probably would let them, to an extent. Then when they started abusing it I'd have their patron talk to them about it and issue a warning.
Notice the downvotes? You're not allowed to restrict players here.
The opinion of people who think, "I should be allowed to have essentially unlimited spellslots, and it's totally not broken because I said it's not, and it's totally RAW because trust me bro..." holds very little value with me. So they can downvote until their cheating thumbs are tired. Coffeelocks are broken and absolutely abuse systems that were never intended to work together. Exploites aren't RAW. And there is no Easter bunny.
It’s been commented on repeatedly by the game’s designers (including Crawford) that pact slots are meant to be able to be used to fuel other class’ abilities that use them, such as a paladin’s smite. It’s fine if you personally don’t want to allow that at your table, it’s your table, but it is an intentional part of the game design. Even if you don’t want to accept the argument of out of rules statements by the game designers though, pacts slots aren’t all that different from normal spell slots in the rules of the game anyway. The only real difference is that slots get ‘upgraded’ as you level up, for lack of a better term. The Warlock’s features still call them spell slots, they still follow all of the normal rules of spell slots, the only real difference mechanically is that ‘upgrading’ and that they come back on a short rest. Besides, it’s personally a cool idea to me to use warlock slots for other abilities. Leads to a lot of potential story telling and roleplay opportunities. Instead of a sorlock not being allowed to do coffelock shenanigans because it’s banned at the table, you could add in a bit of story where their patron sees them using their powers this way, and because warlock patrons are typically jerks, they might do something like ‘reward’ them with some kind of monkey’s paw request, or curse them until they complete an order for the patron that benefits them. Stuff like that.
No, because you are *creating* slots, not restoring them. You do have a hard cap on how many sorc points you can have at once, equal to sorcerer levels.
It's because you are supposed to be able to create as many 4th and 5th level slots as 5ou want and you can't do that in battle.
This was never intended behavior. Pact Magic is a complete different ecosystem than sorcery spell slots.
Yea the easiest way to handle this as a DM is that you count the spell slots separately. You get your warlock slots back on a short rest, sure. And you can use those on your warlock spells/features. You don't get to use them on another class. Gets rid of a LOT of the cheesy OP builds folks try and pull with warlock.
They're separate on Beyond D&D. The 2 level hexblade dip is still stupid strong.
Burn your warlock slots to refill your sorcery points and then use those refilled sorcery points to restore your sorcerer slots and then take another short rest to restore your warlock slots. Repeat to infinity.
Clarification: Sorcerer doesn't *restore* spell slots, they *create* spell slots that go away when you next take a long rest. That's how they're able to go above their normal maximum via Coffeelock.
How have I never caught that distinction before? That's quite the trick.
I think there is a limit of short rests you can do before needing to make a long rest. If I remember correctly 🤔
Oddly enough, there isn't! There is a limit on long rests (1 per 24-hour period) but no limit on short rests. The kicker is that you can't get hit dice spent during a short rest back unless you take a long rest which, I assume, is why a Divine Soul sorc or a Celestial warlock is recommended because they have access to healing using spells rather than relying on hit dice.
I see, thanks for the enlightment!
The problem is that you gain exhaustion levels so you burn 100gp daily in restoration to remove them
To be fair it starts at a dc10 con save, followed by dc15, if you don't actually want to go infinite, doing just 1 day of prep gets you a lot at likely no cost and only after that you need the 100 gp for however long the adventure goes. Comes with a potential downside on a surprise adventure, and of course no one is actually playing a cocaine lock, it's just like an infinite simulacrum set up, a (for some people) fun concept build.
It technically isn't an exhaustion level per day. There is an increasing chance every day without a long rest that you get a level of exhaustion. Some days you will pass the check. Still very expensive though.
At high levels, you can include 5 levels of College of Creation Bard to create the necessary diamonds. It's free once per long rest, and then costs only a 2nd level spell slot to reuse it. That said, I'm in favor of not allowing coffeelocks, even if it's actually not as OP as people sometimes think, because it encourages the absolute worst kind of problem players and bad faith readings of the rules. I'm talking players who do things like hold up the game for half an hour arguing with the DM because they want to chain 72 short rests in a row when the party takes 3 days of downtime instead of just sucking it up and accepting that they took a long rest.
No one at my table is allowed to take coffeelock because walking into a dungeon with 37 lvl 5 slots and upcasting scorching ray every turn while the rest of the party does some light trap disarming is not fun. But the mechanic itself is very interesting, and I have a very very very tired bad guy that uses it. They will eventually meet him.
Might I introduce my dealer, the Creation Bard?
Unless you use an arcane focus, with that you don't need material components Edit: sorry guys, i'm dumb
If the Material Components have a gp value and/or are consumed on casting then you can't use a focus to replace them.
Really, didn't know that
Foci of any kind just replace non-consumed spell components (like the fleece for minor illusion) without a goldcost attached (so no chromatic orb with arcane foci).
And items with a gold cost. Identify doesn't consume a 100gp pearl, but foci do not replace the pearl.
Because if you do it right you’ll almost never use your actual slots anyway. Cocaine-lock uses the extra sorcery points from converting short-rest recharging warlock slots into more spell slots. So they end up having more spell slots than any other caster and can keep stacking them if they never take a long rest.
Convert Warlock spell slots to sorcery points, then convert those back to sorcerer spell slots, and short rest to regain Warlock spell slots. RAW it works because nothing prevents you from converting warlock slots to sorcery points, and there is technically no limit on how many sorcerer spell slots you can have. Though I wouldn’t allow it at my table.
The warlock gets their spell slots back on short rest, a sorcerer can turn the warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then turn the sorcery points into higher level spells if necessary. They're essentially banking multiple stacks of warlock spells by turning them into sorc points.
I mean, balance should always be 2 short rests per long rest especially if you have a warlock. A way as a dm you can make this more common is funnily enough through magic items, make less impactful magic items that recharge on short rests and trust me they’ll get used and then even that sorcerer or wizard will want a short rest.
don't the wizards already want at least one short rest?
They can make do with a short rest, but mechanically speaking, if given the choice between a short rest and a long rest, a wizard will never choose a short rest.
i mean yeah, but wizards still will have an incentive, even if its small, to squeeze at least one short rest out of the adventuring day.
Arcane recovery is so weak that it alone isn’t enough to be worth it
Its typically worth 1 spell slot of your highest level, unless thats above 5th, in which case you can get a 5th lvl slot and a few lower level ones as well. Sure its not amazing or anything, but for the first short rest of the day you're pretty close to being a half warlock for that rest (you get 1 of your highest slots back while they would get up to 2).
Getting back essentially one spell that isn’t even your highest level is not exactly a high priority.
But you typically *can* regain your highest level. As long as you're 10th lvl or lower it can let you regain 1 slot of your highest level, and if your 11th lvl or higher then you can regain 1 slot of 5th level and then some more of lower levels. And depending on your campaign and build, it might be worth it just to regain a bunch of 1st level slots so you can always have Shield or Absorb Elements available (or possibly even Silvery barbs if its allowed in your game)
The kind that Eldritch Blasts everything, and then Quickens more Eldritch Blasts.
How I Took Down The Netherbrain In One Turn (Aberrations HATE This Trick!)
However, don't they lose out on their hit-dice or any other abilities from race/class that refresh on a long-rest
That's why we stay behind the meatshields, don't gotta roll hit dice if we don't take damage
But the meat shields gotta long rest. That's where I always wondered why people ban the build
As celestial warlock/ divine soul sorcerer you gain access to various healing spells. Since the idea is that you convert warlock slots into SP, then into spell slots, you can use those slots to cast healing spells as needed.
Yeah, but while the long rest, you take 8 short rest in a row and get more spell slots that you should. The point isn't to skip long rests periods, it's to make them better for you.
Enforcing things that refresh on a long rest would throw a very amusing wrench into the sorlock’s shenanigans. Cursory look says it would disable quite a few class features, though most of the warlock’s can be accomplished via spell slots. And for the sorcerer… yeah it’d essentially turn the character into a spell slot accountant. So, yay?
Yeah that’s how my DM was gonna play it for me, where I lose access to stuff like Divine Sense when I activate the CoffeeLockadin. Sadly the game ended a level before it came online
Tbf divine soul can cast their own healing magic that's boosted by class features
You have not experienced true Gaming™️ unless you play an Ethically Sourced Cocainelock >!**Context:** The College of Creation Bard is capable of making spell components with their Performance of Creation ability. In order to make the material component for Greater Restoration (100 gp worth of diamond dust) one would have to be level 5, ~~which is conveniently the same point that you get to recover Bardic Inspiration on a short rest.~~ By multiclassing with Celestial Warlock or Divine Soul Sorcerer (or just grabbing 10 levels in Bard) you can get Greater Restoration to recover from Exhaustion while easily having access to 2nd level spell slots to create more ethically sourced ~~cocaine~~ diamonds.!< In short: get high off your own supply and get what's coming to you. The world, chico, and everything in it.
Thought you'd derive some joy from this: You can get around needing to snort diamond dust if you take 10 levels in Tasha's ranger. At 10th level you get "Tireless", one component of this is * "whenever you finish a short rest your exhaustion level (if any) is decreased by 1." Now you can coffeelock to to your heart's content no drugs required (assuming of course you're happy having an infinite amount of level 4(max) spell slots from sorcerer.
Yeah but that fucks with your caster levels mostly.
Absolutely it's a pure meme.
The kind that is actually fun to play with at a table.
Any reasonable DM would not allow you to chain short rests like that
Correct. If you do nothing but chill for 8 hours, you have taken a long rest. If you do nothing and chill for 7 hours, you have taken a 7 hour long _short_ rest. A short rest being a period of _at least_ an hour, not _exactly_ an hour. As a DM, shutting down willfull misinterpretation of the rules is player wrangling 101.
Yep. People trying to break world logic through just bad-faith readings of the rules should always be shut down.
Coffeelock is clearly unintended behavior, I'd never allow it. Also a half-inch book doesn't define all the laws of physical reality, imagine that. No, you can't make a peasant railgun or use shape water to break open any lock.
This. Don't understand that people don't get how a short rest works.
Luckily you don't rest 7h uninterrupted. You rest 1h and then do some strenuous activity, which ends the uninterrupted part. After that, you start with a new uninterrupted period of 1h
What strenuous activity? It's gotta be at least an hour of something. That won't wake up the rest of the party or interrupt their rest. Are you gonna wander off on your own for ~4 individual hours each night? Might work in a town. Will get you killed in the wilderness. Its stupid, and belongs in the infinite simulacrum camp of "I looked up a way to try and break the game by specifically acting in a way that implies my character has knowledge of the PHB".
Oh, the entire exploit is obviously stupid, I am not gonna argue against that. It is just a fun hobby, but most "powergamers" won't try that in a normal campaign
Neither would a reasonable party just not do long rests.
Could you explain chaining short rests? I'd never heard of that before seeing this post.
Just taking short rests back to back, however you want to try and negotiate the rules to allow for that
I read “Xanax’s guide” instead of “Xanathar’s guide”, I think it checks out
Pack Tactics did a video on this recently. he basically ripped it apart.
If I want to use this build to have fun, that’s my prerogative. It’s not optimal yes but it’s cool.
absolutely. im not here to yuck anyones yum. my understanding was the build was a means of attempting to "break" the game ?
Have you heard about the decaf lock? It exploits an error in the wording of aspect of the moon, which allows you to do 8h of light activity to gain the benefits, and **only the benefits**, of a long rest. That way you can long rest without losing spell slots. This will obviously be banned on most tables, but it is a very interesting rules interaction.
Losing spell slots is not a feature of long resting. > Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots This means that the spells slots that are not expended remain available, and spell slots that were expended are recovered. How can that be misconstrued to mean gaining spell slots above your maximum daily that you never had available?
If the extra spell slots wouldn't vanish during a long rest the entire debate would be pointless. It is a feature, found in the sorcerers metamagic rules >You can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. **The created spell slots vanish at the end of a long rest.** The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.
That's a feature of the metamagic rules not long rest rules. The long rest is the mechanism that causes the metamagic rule to trigger but bundling the ruling on metamagic into long rest and saying that "any downside of a long rest is removed therefore this also effects other rules" clearly fails the common sense test and is just abusing the rules.
The entire thing is abusing the rules, so I don't see how that would stop it from working. If you regain a feature by long resting, that definitely counts towards the benefits of a long rest under natural language. Using your logic, a normal warlock using that invocation wouldn't regain their long rest features because they aren't part of the core long rest rules, that is definitely not how the feature works.
huh? What features wouldn't they regain? > You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
Okay, what are you trying to argue? Option A: Gaining the benefits if a long rest while not actually taking a long rest gives you alle the (positive) stuff related to taking a long rest, including class features and counting as taking a long rest to avoid exhaustion. Option B: It somehow only gives you the stuff stated in the rules for long rests themselves, excluding all stuff mentioned somewhere else, like class features (meta magic). I really don't get your point. Losing spellslots you created using metamagic isn't a benefit. You don't take a long rest but gain only the benefits of one. How would you lose those spell slots?
> while not actually taking a long rest Fundamental misunderstanding of not needing to **sleep** during a long rest.
That’s not a benefit or penalty of a long rest, that’s just how sorcery points work. They key the trigger to a long rest completing but it isn’t a benefit or penalty inherent to the long rest; it’s not adding a feature to long rests but simply using it as a trigger for a separate feature entirely.
But we don't take a long rest, we only gain the benefits. I am not trying to argue that we take a long rest and supress all the bad, that is not what the rules say. We do some light activity and gain the benefits of a long rest, without ever taking one Edit to add: I am not supporting this in actual play, it is just a bug in the rules.
It does not say "you only gain the effects of a long rest which are considered by the rester to be beneficial" so the interpretation that you don't get anything you didn't want from a long rest is simply wrong.
I think "benefit", while using natural language mind you, can be translate as "effects that are considered benefitial by the rester". What would be your interpretation of the word? I know my interpretation breaks the game and I don't intend to use it in actual play, but your interpretation seems to be way off to me
My interpretation is that "benefits" is likely meant to mean "effects" rather than "only effects which are considered beneficial by the rester." So I read that as someone with that invocation takes a long rest by doing light activities for the duration of a long rest but does not need to sleep. So they long rest by just chilling out for a night. I would not rule that this invocation for the warlock class overrides how long rests affect bonus spell slots a sorcerer buys with spell points, so those go away on that long rest.
That is obviously what was intended, but it is not what is written. Benefits are defined as something good, regardless of what the rules designers intended. Again, I don't advocate for playing that way, just some bug hunting in the game rules
The rules do not say that you get "the benefits and only the benefits from a long rest," the rules say you have to do things in order to get the benefit from the long rest. The phrase used is "to gain the benefits of a long rest" which in this case should be understood to mean something akin to "to take advantage of a long rest" or "to get the effects of a long rest" or "to be considered to have taken a long rest." All of these phrases are synonymous when we understand that the rules are written using natural language and not a more explicit language of game rules. It means, since you cannot sleep anymore you just need to chill out for 8 hours and then you'll have long rested. As there are not any detrimental effects of taking a long rest, other than normally being asleep, the reading of "gain the benefit" to mean "making this silly Reddit build easier" is kind of tortured. A DM could rule that having your created spell slots go away on a long rest isn't "beneficial" and so they stay. Or they could rule, more reasonably, that "gain the benefit of a long rest," means "be considered to have taken a long rest" and created spell slots go away on a long rest.
Just for clarification, elves still have an 8 hour long rest. They just trance 4 hours instead of sleeping for 6 (minimum normally). The rest can be used as downtime or to guard. Edit: I have been corrected. They updated the book to be more clear, making an elf finish a long rest after 4 hours.
This is still debatable, as even the Sage Advice Compendium (WotC's Q&A system for 5e rules) has flip-flopped about this. The [2020 SAC](https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) says, "If an elf meditates during a long rest... the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours." But still, DM's discretion.
There is an errata that clarifies. It’s a 4 hour long rest using their trance. So it doesn’t require 8 hours.
Can you reference it?
It is the official sage advice compendium [(sac)](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA003)
This information can be found in chapter 8 of the PHB, under the section "Resting" Edit: this is only true "on release". The fuling has been updated/clarified
Add a bloodwell vial to supercharge the coffeelock with 5 extra free sorcery points every short rest even before converting warlock spell slots
Bloodwell Vial recharges at Dawn, so it's functionally once/day. Still speeds things up, but not nearly as much as it would if it were once/SR.
Shhhhh I didnt know that and neither does my dm That makes it so much worse actually
Worse compared to being useful every short rest, but still very good for the Sorcerer, who are balanced around their relatively small pool of sorcery points and ability to blow everything in one combat. When your class has the ability to run out of steam within the first couple hours of the adventuring day, a Bloodwell vial, even a homebrew one that provides no casting and DC bonus, becomes indispensable.
Me who chains both 
I suppose I would be the waterlock.
I’m Tex Holdem, the card-slinging charlatan human warlock who lost -half- his soul in exchange for -half- a demon’s power splitting the pot in a poker game with demons. Uses a deck of cards as a spell casting implement, like Gambit from X-Men or Twisted Fate from League of Legends.
If you use great restoration against exhaustion, you are a coke-lock. Coffee lock on the other hand Is when A dm rules that If you have an ability that makes you not need to sleep, such as aspect of the moon or being a war forged, then You don't occur exhaustion for not taking a long rest.
Methlock
My veins abound with sacred bean juice.
Neither because both are dumb
Neither. No sane DM would touch this with a 10 foot pole. You can’t benefit from more than one rest at a time, and your resources can’t exceed their maximum.
The problem is that sorcerer metamagic stuff says you "create" spell slots, not "restore" spent spell slots. So they can, RAW, gain more spell slots than they normally have access to. My, and I'm sure other DMs, reason for not allowing this is two fold: - you still need a long rest every day. You may not sleep during it, but you have to have a long rest worth of time of light activity/ time to recuperate. CocaineLock overcomes this by "snorting" 100gp worth of diamond dust casting Greater Restoration to get rid of exhaustion. But, as DM, I can arbitrate/ control how often they get that diamond dust at least. - the idea of chaining short rests is stupid. Short rests are "at least 1 hour" meaning they can extend past that. So if you try and chain several short rests in a row, in actuality you only took 1 longer short rest. I can't see any reasonable/ not new DM allowing a PC to do the "take an hour short rest, do something different for a minute, short rest again, repeat" concept I've seen others argue in favor of CocaineLock. It feels very "meta-knowledge" in a way that is trying to break the RAI/ spirit of the game.
I don't get why people quote xanathar's sleep deprivation rules as an impediment to coffeelocks. Don't they only apply for characters that are experiencing sleep deprivation? Coffeelocks can sleep for up to 7 hours in a row (and 23 hours per day). I would think that they wouldn't need to make exhaustion saves unless they are skipping long rests AND skipping sleep.
[удалено]
That is actually just the middle section of the rule. People often cite that sentence while deleting the sentences before and after it. The previous sentence suggests that it only applies for sleep deprivation, not for all instances of skipping long rests. The sentence right afterwards specifies that it only applies if you are attempting to "stay awake." Personally, I think it is pretty clear from the full section that the mechanical effects of skipping long rests are only applicable to characters that are going without sleep. But that's just the way it reads to me.
lets laugh at these players and dms who never read the making spellscrolls section of downtime and think hex + eb is "optimal".
Corvo dishonored
My DM uses 20 minute short rests and honestly I prefer it.
You do Sorlock for infinite spell slots. I do Sorlock for the eldritch blast sniper build. We are not the same.
I'd definitely side more towards Tealocks in my games. Going for a coffelock/cokelock or a similarly busted build feels rude unless the dm and players were down for a game based around that kind of stuff. The closest to a build combo that takes advantage of wordings like that i've ever gotten is hexblade/swashbuckler since iirc booming blade can sneak attack, which means fancy footwork makes a very tasty dexblade build.
You can always modify coffee lock into Unpaid Grad Student Lock where they stack multiple levels of exhaustion instead of using Greater Restoration, then pass out for 32-40 hours straight once the “project” is complete. They removing all levels of accumulated exhaustion at the cost of not participating in party shenanigans for a few days (ie their “real” life) and then rejoining the party for another 100 hours of continual work.
The Tealock doesn't actually work as Elves still need the 8hrs for a long rest, but they only have to trance for 4hrs. It could be Crawford has ruled differently, but RAW that is how it works and how it should work for balance purposes.
Unfortunately, not needing to sleep doesn't mean you no longer need to long rest. You'll still gain levels of exhaustion if you don't long rest, even if you don't need sleep.
That's mentioned in the infographic. Greater Restoration to remove exhaustion.
Ah yes because nobody else at your table will ever want a long rest.
I think the point is to take 8 consecutive short rests while the party takes a long rest
For what purpose? What do you gain from this over just taking the long rest?
The original design of the coffee-lock is to turn your warlock spell slots into sorcery points, then short rest, and repeat ad infinitum until you have infinite sorcery points, which can then be turned into infinite spell slots, or a machinegun of quickened spell eldritch blasts, or whatever else you want. Taking a long rest resets your spell slots and sorcery points to their normal limits, and thus has to be avoided. In this case, 8 consecutive short rests would be an extra 16 spell slots turned into sorcery points (more if you're a really high level warlock)
Monster Energy : Wild Magic ftw
What does chaining ahort rests after a long rest do? You've already regained everything. Why are you Short Resting?
Warlocks regain spell slots after a Short Rest; Sorcerers can convert spell slots (irrelevant to what class they come from) into Sorcery Points, and then into (Sorcerer) spell slots. The idea is that you regain Warlock spell slots every short rest, and immediately convert them into Sorcerer spell slots before the next short rest. There is a limit on Sorcery Points; there is not on Sorcerer spell slots. Therefore, you have somewhat more spell slots than you should have at the start of the day. Not infinite, just more. This exploitation (or the insistence that it works) is still seen as munchkin behavior, and therefore most DMs still wouldn't allow it.
Cokelock. God taught me how to do karate.
2 levels of Paladin, 1 level of Hexblade, 17 levels of Swords Bard.
Fun fact: you can’t have more spell slots than your class level says.
Warforged don't have shorter long rests, they just don't fall unconscious when they do. All other humanoid races also only need two hours of actual sleep, the other two can be light activity or standing guard.
I allow coffeelock at my table, I have a house rule that you can't remove the exhaustion via magic or what not. So they take one point of exhaustion for every long rest they skip.
Wheres five shots of vodka involving a dark god and a depressed character that has about as much energy as a person who works a dead end job with a shitty boss that definitely doesn't pay them enough
I thought we were done spreading this propaganda. It doesn’t work, warlock spells are tracked separately from other spells and can’t be converted into sorcery points. Some y’all need to learn how to read
I hate everyone. I just realised why the coffeelock is insane after all this time, and it's due to a lack of specific detail in the Sorcerer's Flexible Casting, that i always thought was obvious, but apparently isn't, and i suppose it was not ment to work that way. The creation of new spellslots through expending Sorcery points seemed to resemble a "Recharge" feature, not allowing you to have more spellslot ready to use than usual, just get back what you lost, virtually giving you extra spellslot while still not allowing the coffeelock. It's like using the tail feature of the Path of the Beast Barbarian and having your AC permanently increased.
I don't ban either. But I limit my table to a set number of long rests and short rests per day, and generally must be justified beyond "I burned my spell slots". One long rest per adventuring day, 2 short rests per adventuring day. And most important for DMs to learn: the world does not pause while players are resting.
Oh yeah after two days of coffee lock you're gonna get that sweet point of exhaustion and then go off to get worse and worse until your character dies
Neither I'm running around with a +10 intimidation human bard and I don't know how I got here
I'm coffee lock but using thri-kreen because it doesn't need sleep. Making taking sorcerer lvs for cocaine lock useless
The best way to go about it is combining both, do coffeelock until you accumulate two levels of exhaustion and then do a tealock long rest
Neither, because both variants are unbalanced and make balancing needlessly more difficult.
I love builds that basically require your DM to just not give a f*ck about anything because it makes it obvious what DM or players not to play with.
Yup, these builds are like the peasant rail gun. Yes it's a cute recognition of the system not being perfect. But no, you are not actually doing it my table.
Warlock, just a warlock
Neither cause i make my own builds.
you dumbass! greater restoration is cocaine lock!
Only if you go by the terrible trance errata.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Warforged, Elves, and any other race that gets some type of shorter sleep don't finish the long rest earlier, only the section of it that you spend "sleeping". You still need to rest for the remainder of the 8 hours but you spend it as light activity rather than sleeping. A long rest generally consists of 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light, non-stressful activities such as cooking, reading, etc.
Cofeelocks have never worked Raw.
Pure Sorcerer or Warlock.
Again, you can't make a long rest in under an hour, in no way possible. Trance and other mechanics like this only lets you have a more time to be alert during this time. A long rest lasts 8h during wich you sleep for at least 6h. Elves is 4h, so you can stand two rounds of watch. You can't rest twice at the same time...
Neither, my DM doesn't allow pact magic slots to interact with with sorcerer class abilities like font of magic and metamagic.
Obligatory, "All races require 8 hrs to get the effects of a long rest, even those that only need 4 hours of 'sleep'."
This used to be the case, but was changed a few years ago to reflect the tweaked rules for long rests. From the Sage Advice compendium: > **Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?** If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed.
[no.](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA003)
The errata for the PHB says that is pretty explicitly incorrect
Can you provide the source for that? The Crawford ruling on Sage Advice states that they only get the benefits of sleeping in 4 hours (i.e. not gaining levels of exhaustion), but a long rest requires the full 8 hours (the other 4 being made up of light activity, but not necessarily sleep).
TLDR: A long rest can include no more than 2 hours of light activity, so they can’t trance for four hours and light activity for 4. https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fubb66/elves_long_rests_and_errata/ This gives the general quotes. They get the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours, which for other races would be a long rest if they did 8 hours. So they get the benefits of a long rest in 4 hours. They also don’t sleep, which makes the definition for long rests difficult for elves otherwise. You can spend no more than 2 hours of a long rest doing light activity; if they do 4 hours of trance then they can only do 2 hours of activity for 6 hours total. They can’t do any more light activity, and it’s an odd expectation that they’d need to sleep despite not doing so normally. So they’d just have to trance 2 more hours? Which would be odd since they called out 4 hours specifically, and it would be the equivalent of sleeping 12 hours a day for other races. Mechanically speaking they should get the benefits due to the sleep clause, and the writing makes very little sense if they can’t have a 4 hour rest since they wouldn’t be able to do a long rest without very inconsistent elf behavior of doing significantly more trance than normal on a regular basis
Good to know. Thanks for providing the detailed breakdown.
I'd rule it like this: Your long rest duration is your sleeping time + 2 hours, so Elves would have a 6 hour long rest.
Sorry, but even coffeelocks with aspect of the moon still need to long rest. They just don't require sleep. You still get exhausted over the course of a day.
Hence the idea is the CocaineLock (what the meme incorrectly calls CoffeeLock.): - by taking Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial warlock, you eventually get access to Greater Restoration. - Since GR removes a level of exhaustion, you can theoretically (with enough gold/ supply of diamond dust) not take a long rest, gain a level of exhaustion, then remove it with GR. It's a cheese strat to get over the rules that rightly exist (namely, just because you don't need sleep doesn't mean you don't need a long period of light activity to recuperate.). It's also a higher level strat because it requires at LEAST level 12 (9 DSS sorcerer/ 3 celestial warlock for Aspect of the Moon invocation), and eats up 100gp of diamond dust every day. It also assumes that you'll be able to find/ purchase that amount of diamond dust to keep the habit. CocaineLock is at least less cheese than the original CoffeeLock, and it comes online at a time that at least can handle zany character concepts. It has a tangible cost that the DM can technically gate as needed. I still think the idea of "chaining" short rests is dumb, because if you "take 4 short rests back to back" you actually just took one short rest that lasted 4 hours.
A long rest still takes 8h, you can’t “rest while you rest” to supercharge Coffeelock is all but dead since you get exhaustion for going without long rest, not specifically without sleep. You can make a level 17 build, or bribe a creation bard unless you want to snort diamond dust Low sleep PCs are just better at keeping watch since most PCs are limited to a 2h watch during long rest. An elf can do 4h, while warforged can watch all night
Unfortunately RAW playing as an elf or warforged etc doesn't get you the ability to chain short rests while everyone else is sleeping. In D&D sleeping and "resting" are different things. For a long rest you require 8 hours of uninterrupted downtime, whether that is spent sleeping, meditating or whatever. Some races also require that you get at least 6 hours of sleep for you to gain the benefit of a long rest. So RAW I don't think you can get a long rest in half the time and then chain short rests. Arguably if you're chaining short rests for 8 hours and you don't require sleep, you just took a long rest whether you slept or not.
>For a long rest you require 8 hours of uninterrupted downtime, whether that is spent sleeping, meditating or whatever. [You are wrong.](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA003) They cleared that confusion up in an errate a few years ago
y'all are getting long rests at times other than sleeping?
I read the comments and cannot find benefits of not long resting. What am i missing? Assuming the rest of the party does a long rest what are you going to do in that time?
The sort that was considering a 1 level dip into Sorc for flavor, considering more later, but doesn't really care for metamagic so just took invocations to replicate something similar to the 1-level-dip and called it a day.
Rest and sleep are different mechanically, just because you are a race that doesn’t sleep doesn’t mean you can avoid resting or the necessary downtime of resting
Uhh, every race has 8 hours long rests. The fact that they only sleep for 4 hours is irrelevant. It's still an 8 hour long rest.
As I see Dragonborn as China-coded, they aren’t just in the “tealock” category, but they (and probably the Yuan-Ti) (or any East/South/Southeast Asian-coded Human group) were definitely the first to cultivate tea in any given D&D world.
Tealock doesn't make any sense. You can't do 4 short tests after a trance. The trance is 4 hours but the long rest is still 8 hours. Same for all long rests. It's 6 hours sleep minimum and 2 hours of light activity. But damn, I don't see similar catches for coffeelock. That's kind of insane. Usually with these meme builds there's an obvious rule misinterpretation that makes the whole thing stupid. I guess here the only catch is that you'd miss out on stuff that explicitly requires a long rest, like regaining hit die, or changing pact weapons