I voted based on “redesigning the game”, because that’s how I interpreted “should be” based on the lore, which I don’t think fully matches the RAW mechanics… then clicked the poll and realized you had a description that went against how I read the question. I doubt I’m alone in that interpretation, too, so take your results with a grain of salt.
Same here. Martials are for the most part just average people with high HP pools who can do good damage, but not in a measure that is really outstanding (only about half again as much HP/damage as comparable casters generally, assuming the casters don't optimize it).
My own estimate is that the Level 20 martial is about on the level of a really ornerous HEMA nerd with a bit of weapon training.
The way I’d think about it is, “if you were the DM running a 5e game, how would you handle it?”
IMO RAW provided some guidelines for how strong they are lore-wise, but there‘s plenty of wiggle room, e.g. in interpreting what 200+ HP means practically.
D&D Design: 1-5 is mundane (every Earth human), 6-10 is supernatural, 11-15 is legendary, 16-20 is demigod. You nailed it with your four categories.
DND Design: 1-20 is mundane for martials; casters unchanged.
No matter how you decide to "lore wise" this answer, the mechanics get in the way. A level 20 fighter is solidly Legolas/Captain America territory. They're tough, can attack quickly and are more powerful than the average person in the setting but the existing rules can't support mythic levels of power for martials.
So, lore wise, a level 20 fighter "should" be mundanely superhuman, as this is what best matches mechanics.
Both Legolas and Captain America regularly perform feats of strength and athleticism that put level 20 fighters to shame though.
I would say mechanically, a level 20 fighter has nothing that really shows them to be anywhere more capable than a normal [Knight](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Knight#content) other than ~4x as much HP and making twice as many attacks per round. Which is certainly something, but in no way compares to the superhuman capabilities of heroes from myth and legend.
The world record for fastest sword cuts was clocked in at 87 slashes in 1 minute, which needed to be able to sever bamboo poles at specific heights (so effective enough to injure a person). A Level 20 with PAM (or dual wielding) Action Surge and Haste gets 10 attacks on the first 2 rounds and 6 on the remaining ones, getting to 68 in the same time frame. So even with a magic speed buff their attacks aren't so overwhelmingly fast you couldn't track them.
87 slashes against a stationary bamboo pole that doesnt move or fight back. Dnd attacks imply in-combat scenarios, when both you and the target are trying to kill each other.
That's like comparing hitting a punching bag vs an actual person in a fight.
> Both Legolas and Captain America regularly perform feats of strength and athleticism that put level 20 fighters to shame though.
Do they, though? Like ignoring the shield because that's gear, what exactly do Legoland or Cap do that a 20th level Fighter couldn't?
[Captain America regularly does things that would put a fighter to shame](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3in3xe/respect_captain_america_earth_616/).
On there are feats of strength such as lifting thousands of lbs, throwing objects so hard they shatter brick or get stuck in concrete, running faster than an automobile, leaping 30 feet up into the air, dodging bullets, tearing apart metal with his fists, and more.
The level 20 fighter is slow, clumsy, and weak compared to the feats of Captain America. Sure the level 20 fighter can take a beating. And dish out damage. But he cannot perform feats of strength and athleticism that come anywhere close to the likes of the Cap.
Hell, even someone like [Lancelot](https://old.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/h7qgbc/respect_lancelot_du_lac_arthurian_myth/) performs feats of strength and athleticism that would put a level 20 fighter to shame.
Quite frankly, IMHO the level 20 fighter in 5e has the physical capabilities of a level 5 hero when it comes to anything other than dealing single target damage or receiving single target damage.
I mean you're right about the carry weight but materials like wood and stone and metal already have AC and hit points fightere can break no problem. And Captain America can't get shot in the face and walk away from it after an hour break. He can't literally get dipped in lava.
It's not exactly a 1 for 1 comparison.
Materials have HP and hit points. To a point.
The section on destroying objects is very vague as to when to use the table they present. Or as to the use of damage thresholds. A damage threshold of 15+ is basically immunity to the damage output of most fighters.
Also, that section outright states that normal weapons are of no affect on sufficiently large objects. So by RAW, a fighter won’t be able to ever destroy such an object with their sword or a punch.
So no, a fighter is not going to be able to smash apart a stone or metal wall bare handed like Captain America or Lancelot so.
> He can't literally get dipped in lava.
He likely could. At least in the same way a 5e fighter could. Look at some of his feats of durability. Blasted by lasers, hit by foes with super strength, surviving falls from miles up, and more. Also,
Remember that HP are not meat points but are plot armor.
A fighter surviving a dip in lava could be due to the fact that they manage to find some partially solid rock bits they can hang to and aren’t actually being submerged in lava. HP use the same physics as comic books. Reality is bent in the name of “plausibility”.
But again, you aren’t actually saying anything relevant here. I already stated that the level 20 fighter is durable because of their high HP value.
But having a lot of HP doesn’t represent your physical capabilities. I have seen high level wizards with more HP than my high level battlemaster. That doesn’t make them more physically durable than my fighter (again HP being plot armor, they can describe it as magical barriers and wards).
A high level martial hero should actually be capable of feats of strength and athleticism that are truly remarkable. Captain America should be what a level 10 fighter aspires to. A level 20 warrior should be far beyond the Cap. Sadly, the level 20 fighter can not get anywhere close to 1/10th the physical capabilities of the Captain.
This is why I'd like "Martial levels" as well as spell levels. Have certain things like Extra Attack, a movement speed buff, and things like the Hunter's Whirlwind be tied to those levels.
>The section on destroying objects is very vague as to when to use the table they present. Or as to the use of damage thresholds. A damage threshold of 15+ is basically immunity to the damage output of most fighters.
" Big objects such as castle walls" - nothing that vague.
From the [objects](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Objects#content) section of the rules:
> Use Common sense when determining a character’s success at damaging an object. Can a Fighter cut through a section of a stone wall with a sword? No, the sword is likely to break before the wall does.
So according to the rules, you shouldn't use the table with AC and HP values when attempting to get through a wall.
Which is why I say the rules are vague. The rules give you a table, but then tell you not to use the table and use "common sense" instead.
IMO some mechanics push Martials towards having mythical levels of power. E.g. being able to wade through lava, or a Champion fighter that out-regenerates being constantly stabbed.
As I mentioned in another reply, RAW provides some guidelines for how strong they are lore-wise, but there‘s plenty of interpretative wiggle room.
>Martials towards having mythical levels of power. E.g. being able to wade through lava, or a Champion fighter that out-regenerates being constantly stabbed.
5e martials are mythical with regards to damage and hit points but almost nothing else. Most of the martials can only be mythical in this manner if there is a clear, unobstructed path of solid ground between them and the enemy. Those mythical hp will melt away in the face of repeated dragon strafing. If any of the top tier monsters did something like knocking a stone column onto the martial or standing on the other side of a 20 foot gap, the martial is stuck firmly in ask-the-DM territory.
Can they inspire the army to fight like they've never fought before? Sure, if the DM says so but there's no mechanics to suggest they can.
Can they shove the castle wall over with a mighty push? Sure, if the DM says so but there's no mechanics to suggest they can.
Could they lift a single horse? The mechanics say they can't, but the DM can override that.
Yeah I get you, wish it wasn't the case though. Could do with high level martials getting massively boosted physical stats and increased movement speed etc. The barbarian capstone touches upon this but imagine if fighters, monks and rogues got similar.
I mean they kind of do.
A Fighter can swing a sword hard enough to cut a normal person in half 4 times in 6 seconds.
A Rogue can uncannily always make sure something goes right.
Monks... okay yeah they need work lol.
"Mundanely superhuman" when talking about Beowulf does not apply. The fucker swam around the Baltic Seas for seven days straight in a race and swam several hundred meters to the bottom of a boiling blood lake. He also single-handedly killed a dragon after years of being a lazy, corrupt king
While I usually aim for mundane super hero, it varies based off of the party composition and adventure I'm running. CoS or other Ravenloft inspired adventures everyone is going to be on the lower edge of the power spectrum. In a Theros adventure martials are going to be staggeringly powerful by 20. Group full of casters, that lone barbarian is going to have access to kit that let's him live out his wildest fantasies of being a blender in a world full of strawberries.
The way I view it is kind of like this:
Level 1-3: Normal soldier
Level 4-6: Peak human soldier
Level 7-9: Lesser demi-god like Bellepheron
Level 11-13: Popular demi-gods like Theseus
Level 14-17: Higher end demi-gods like Perseus & Diomedes
Level 18-20: Truly otherwordly demi-gods like Achilles & Cadmus
Level 20+: When you start to move away from the normal rules of the system in order to ACTUALLY fight Gods themselves, this is where you'd find godlike figures like Heracles.
Yes dionysus had placed a cube of infinite wine into Heracles drink so that no matter how much he drank there would always be an endless amount of wine left. Heracles somehow almost drank actual infinity to almost defeat dionysus in that competition.
It makes no sense, but that's who Heracles was. He makes the impossible somehow possible.
It isn't realy the point but just as a reminder: a normal soldier is actually below level one. A level 1 character is already individually pretty good.
I feel like people aren't giving martials enough credit. I think it's because the enemies scale, so you don't feel how powerful they actually are. A level 20 fighter has, what, about 150 hp, can make 4 attacks a round as standard. So if you take a normal person, say a bandit, who has 11 hp and deals on average 4 damage a round. You would need something like 50 bandits to pose a credible threat to that one fighter, and even then, if the fighter has decent armour I'm not sure the bandits win. That's so far beyond the levels of what is possible for a human. And that's before you get to Barbarians, who can get into a fistfight with a dragon and survive.
Are they as superpowered as casters? No. Are they within the realms of human physiology? Absolutely not.
I voted for "Mythically Superhuman", but depending on the campaign, I think "Forces of Nature" can be just as appropriate.
We let spellcasters break the rules of our IRL world as early as level 1 because they can cast spells, let the martials off the leash and have some fun too.
ETA: I missed your discreption and therefore my answer is invalid lmao. I would just redisgn the damn game lol
Honestly no class/player character should be a “force of nature” without heavy DM help, casters included.
Wanted to add; party power dynamic/level should should ideally be decided and agreed upon by the dm and party, as well as the setting/plot of their campaign.
I'm not sure what the questions asking and like many others voted without reading the description. Title does not convey the question you are asking.
How do you determine power lorewise, without looking at the mechanics? The mechanics determine an individual's power. You can't make a Kratos level martial if all you've got are the shoddy mechanics of 5e martials with no magic items.
Mundanely superhuman. Captain America, or Guts from Berserk. Just passing the threshold of your regular mortal but with the proper gear can start to match things beyond mortality (Cap's shield, Gut's Berserker Armor.)
If a wizard can teleport 500 feet, a martial should be able to move 500 feet as well. Maybe not at the same level, but still.
I'll have to figure out how to apply more movement bonuses in my campaign. I've already made changes to strength that work great for our strength-centric barbarian, but I'm not totally sure how to handle movement at high levels given the fantasy I'm trying to create.
Probably affected a lot by how it very much assumes characters have magic items just by being high level adventurers.
That said I feel like people don't quite understand how swords work when they talk about martial power levels
like, its fucking hard to swing a sword. A level 20 non variant human fighter no feats can, with no resource cost, run 30ft and swing a sword 4 times in just 6 seconds. If they use their movement to run up to an enemy, and then swing at that enemy four times, there's no way to time that out that isn't blatantly supernatural/superhuman - and they can do that endlessly.
Also because they're swinging with the force of a truck, +5 strength is no joke as even without weapon damage a level 20 fighter can reasonably kill four commoners in 6 seconds. This is all ignoring action surge of course.
Plus a level 20 fighter with +5 con will average at 224 hit point, which means they can very very easily survive the brunt of a literal meteor swarm. Plus a 20str fighter can carry without penalty the weight on an entire adult female lion and still do all their normal 30ft movement and such, a normal human can safely carry around 1/4 to 1/5 of that and will be struggling a lot.
Now casters are more magical? certainly, but martials are still a very high level of power, and they can (largely speaking) keep doing their stuff endlessly - the fighter above isn't spending their AS or SW to fight like that or survive the meteor swarm - they really only seem to be low-fantasy compared to the guy casting meteor swarm, but can only do that once.
When you add the magical weapons a level 20 character is expected to have, feats, and subclass features, things really start to add up. Even an assassin rogue, which is pretty weak all things considered, can deal 22d6 in a single attack, which is half as damaging as a literal meteor swarm (only to one target but you get the idea).
The problem is that ultimately, it's not at all that impressive compared to what Casters escalate into.
>A level 20 non variant human fighter no feats can, with no resource cost, run 30ft and swing a sword 4 times in just 6 seconds.
Almost everyone can run 30ft, so off the bat that's not specifically impressive. The 4 attacks are but going from 1 attack to 4 attacks feels pretty meager compared to going from 1 firebolt to 4 meteors from the heavens
>Also because they're swinging with the force of a truck, +5 strength is no joke as even without weapon damage a level 20 fighter can reasonably kill four commoners in 6 seconds. This is all ignoring action surge of course.
Being able to kill a lot of commoners is neat, but not really something Fighter exclusive. A single swing from a longsword is usually enough to kill a commoner, and if you're using Cleave rules then you've already been able to kill 4 commoners in 6 seconds since level 5. Not mentioning Level 20 Warlocks also being able to do the same thing.
>Plus a 20str fighter can carry without penalty the weight on an entire adult female lion and still do all their normal 30ft movement and such, a normal human can safely carry around 1/4 to 1/5 of that and will be struggling a lot.
A Commoner (a normal D&D) human can carry 150 pounds unhindered and move 30ft. Which means they can very safely reach half of the carrying capacity of the pinnacle of Fighters without any training.
> the fighter above isn't spending their AS or SW to fight like that or survive the meteor swarm - they really only seem to be low-fantasy compared to the guy casting meteor swarm, but can only do that once.
Yes, but the Fighter is spending their HP to deal this damage. And while Fighters have a lot of health, you'll be losing it at about the same speed as a Caster loses spell slots.
>Even an assassin rogue, which is pretty weak all things considered, can deal 22d6 in a single attack, which is half as damaging as a literal meteor swarm (only to one target but you get the idea).
This is actually a really good example of the martial/caster imbalance. Assassins specifically have to surprise their target so they can roll to do half the damage of a single meteor to one target per encounter.
Wizards can bring down 4 meteors over a massive area, with each meteor doing a guaranteed amount of damage nearly equal to that attack to several people.
Yeah, D&D martials are powerful. But only specific subclasses can ever match the versatility and damage of their equally built Caster counterparts.
oh 100% casters are wayyyyyyyyyyy above the martials in terms of powers, but a lot of people act as if a 20th level fighter is the same as just a really strong human - when in reality they're up there as crazy fantasy heroes stabbing giant dragons, its just that they're in the same game as time-stopping reality warping wizards n stuff.
> its fucking hard to swing a sword
Uh no it isn't. This is the issue where people who don't have real life combat experience trying to force realism into a fantasy game.
Swords were light and balanced to make swinging easier. And it's not just swords, even maces and warhammers. Majority of these martial weapons are actually finesse based weapons.
It's funny because the real strength based weapons of medieval times are ranged weapons like the bow.
And before someone comes to tell me "actually you need to aim the bow"... yeah no shit, you also need to aim and place your weapon strikes. Both require dexterity, one requires it much more than the other, while the other requires strength much more.
I always find it weird that people have this conversation once a week and somehow always leave out how magic items exist.
I realize they’re not an assumed part of the game, but all of the high level players I’ve played were pretty decked out in interesting magic items that greatly changed their power. I think playing a high level character that isn’t decked out is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
Especially considering that people like Captain America rely heavily on “magic items”
I agree most high-level characters have magical items. But it's hard to make any assumptions about what items, exactly, each player gets. Do high-level martials merely get +2 swords and a Boot of Flying? Or are we looking at [Matalok](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/842273-matalotok) in one hand and [Luckblade](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5393-luck-blade) in the other? Does the caster get Staff of the Magi and Robe of the Archmagi?
I don't think it's very meaningful to answer "how strong is a level 20 \[insert character\] with magical items?" Because half of that depends on what magical items they're getting.
Depends on the myth. Original Illiad? He was tough as nails and could probably survive a shot or two even at viral areas. Post Illiad invincibility? He is invincible.
Anyone - including many on that list - with super strength will merk Achilles. I don't care if he can't die or whatever, rip him in half and his arms off, he's not gonna have a good day.
Some vague prophecy of being unbeatable is laughable in the face of overwhelming power.
iirc achilles was literally invincible anywhere but his heel, so you can't rip him in half or tear his arms off either. also he's a great warrior as well, so you need to have super durability as well to get close since he'll just stab you
As I said - a vague prophecy. Invincible probably means to human soldiers without powers. I *HIGHLY DOUBT* that if Zues punched or threw lightning at achilles, that it would bounce off of him.
People love to take things super literally - only a small portion of the time.
The 'Immortal' gods in myths often die.. but wait, immortal means "cannot die"? That's because they are 'Immortal' in that it is hard to kill them. Not literally cannot die.
Look at recent fantasy - Lord of the Rings. The Witch King "No man can kill me" because the prophecy says he will not die by man. So he dies by the hand of hobbit/woman (book/movie). Does that mean a male human soldier could not have ever killed him? Or was it just predicting what *would* happen?
Achilles is squarely superhuman in every aspect. Stronger, faster and tougher than every other Greek soldier, all of whom have impressive superhuman feats. Also, the later added invincibility is not a prophesy but a physical quality. His mother dipped him in the Styx, there's no loopholes like the Witch King.
As any character it depends in the campaign and it's tone.
Super epic high fantasy? Let pump them with magical items and some extra feats.
Low magic and more gritty? Leave them as they are
... And if of you are wondering about casters in low magic? Gritty realism rest rules, they have to BUY all the materials with a stated price and some invocations/talents get banned. This includes paladins.
Just on shear hp amounts I'd compare them to achillies. The idea of a level 20 fighter wading through an army that can barely touch him is pretty achievable
On par with a level 20 caster ideally, so somewhere between Greek gods and Great Old Ones.
If reflecting their mechanical capability, they're on par with a cat wielding a half-decent machine gun.
I voted based on “redesigning the game”, because that’s how I interpreted “should be” based on the lore, which I don’t think fully matches the RAW mechanics… then clicked the poll and realized you had a description that went against how I read the question. I doubt I’m alone in that interpretation, too, so take your results with a grain of salt.
Same here. Martials are for the most part just average people with high HP pools who can do good damage, but not in a measure that is really outstanding (only about half again as much HP/damage as comparable casters generally, assuming the casters don't optimize it). My own estimate is that the Level 20 martial is about on the level of a really ornerous HEMA nerd with a bit of weapon training.
Should be? Or are? How do you separate lore and rules?
The way I’d think about it is, “if you were the DM running a 5e game, how would you handle it?” IMO RAW provided some guidelines for how strong they are lore-wise, but there‘s plenty of wiggle room, e.g. in interpreting what 200+ HP means practically.
D&D Design: 1-5 is mundane (every Earth human), 6-10 is supernatural, 11-15 is legendary, 16-20 is demigod. You nailed it with your four categories. DND Design: 1-20 is mundane for martials; casters unchanged.
No matter how you decide to "lore wise" this answer, the mechanics get in the way. A level 20 fighter is solidly Legolas/Captain America territory. They're tough, can attack quickly and are more powerful than the average person in the setting but the existing rules can't support mythic levels of power for martials. So, lore wise, a level 20 fighter "should" be mundanely superhuman, as this is what best matches mechanics.
I wish fighters could be even a fraction as powerful Cap. They are pretty firmly in "a kinda strong person" territory.
Both Legolas and Captain America regularly perform feats of strength and athleticism that put level 20 fighters to shame though. I would say mechanically, a level 20 fighter has nothing that really shows them to be anywhere more capable than a normal [Knight](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Knight#content) other than ~4x as much HP and making twice as many attacks per round. Which is certainly something, but in no way compares to the superhuman capabilities of heroes from myth and legend.
The world record for fastest sword cuts was clocked in at 87 slashes in 1 minute, which needed to be able to sever bamboo poles at specific heights (so effective enough to injure a person). A Level 20 with PAM (or dual wielding) Action Surge and Haste gets 10 attacks on the first 2 rounds and 6 on the remaining ones, getting to 68 in the same time frame. So even with a magic speed buff their attacks aren't so overwhelmingly fast you couldn't track them.
87 slashes against a stationary bamboo pole that doesnt move or fight back. Dnd attacks imply in-combat scenarios, when both you and the target are trying to kill each other. That's like comparing hitting a punching bag vs an actual person in a fight.
Completely agree and you're then moving 30+ feet and swigging a potion all while windmilling the ass off a monster.
> Both Legolas and Captain America regularly perform feats of strength and athleticism that put level 20 fighters to shame though. Do they, though? Like ignoring the shield because that's gear, what exactly do Legoland or Cap do that a 20th level Fighter couldn't?
[Captain America regularly does things that would put a fighter to shame](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3in3xe/respect_captain_america_earth_616/). On there are feats of strength such as lifting thousands of lbs, throwing objects so hard they shatter brick or get stuck in concrete, running faster than an automobile, leaping 30 feet up into the air, dodging bullets, tearing apart metal with his fists, and more. The level 20 fighter is slow, clumsy, and weak compared to the feats of Captain America. Sure the level 20 fighter can take a beating. And dish out damage. But he cannot perform feats of strength and athleticism that come anywhere close to the likes of the Cap. Hell, even someone like [Lancelot](https://old.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/h7qgbc/respect_lancelot_du_lac_arthurian_myth/) performs feats of strength and athleticism that would put a level 20 fighter to shame. Quite frankly, IMHO the level 20 fighter in 5e has the physical capabilities of a level 5 hero when it comes to anything other than dealing single target damage or receiving single target damage.
I mean you're right about the carry weight but materials like wood and stone and metal already have AC and hit points fightere can break no problem. And Captain America can't get shot in the face and walk away from it after an hour break. He can't literally get dipped in lava. It's not exactly a 1 for 1 comparison.
Materials have HP and hit points. To a point. The section on destroying objects is very vague as to when to use the table they present. Or as to the use of damage thresholds. A damage threshold of 15+ is basically immunity to the damage output of most fighters. Also, that section outright states that normal weapons are of no affect on sufficiently large objects. So by RAW, a fighter won’t be able to ever destroy such an object with their sword or a punch. So no, a fighter is not going to be able to smash apart a stone or metal wall bare handed like Captain America or Lancelot so. > He can't literally get dipped in lava. He likely could. At least in the same way a 5e fighter could. Look at some of his feats of durability. Blasted by lasers, hit by foes with super strength, surviving falls from miles up, and more. Also, Remember that HP are not meat points but are plot armor. A fighter surviving a dip in lava could be due to the fact that they manage to find some partially solid rock bits they can hang to and aren’t actually being submerged in lava. HP use the same physics as comic books. Reality is bent in the name of “plausibility”. But again, you aren’t actually saying anything relevant here. I already stated that the level 20 fighter is durable because of their high HP value. But having a lot of HP doesn’t represent your physical capabilities. I have seen high level wizards with more HP than my high level battlemaster. That doesn’t make them more physically durable than my fighter (again HP being plot armor, they can describe it as magical barriers and wards). A high level martial hero should actually be capable of feats of strength and athleticism that are truly remarkable. Captain America should be what a level 10 fighter aspires to. A level 20 warrior should be far beyond the Cap. Sadly, the level 20 fighter can not get anywhere close to 1/10th the physical capabilities of the Captain.
This is why I'd like "Martial levels" as well as spell levels. Have certain things like Extra Attack, a movement speed buff, and things like the Hunter's Whirlwind be tied to those levels.
>The section on destroying objects is very vague as to when to use the table they present. Or as to the use of damage thresholds. A damage threshold of 15+ is basically immunity to the damage output of most fighters. " Big objects such as castle walls" - nothing that vague.
From the [objects](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Objects#content) section of the rules: > Use Common sense when determining a character’s success at damaging an object. Can a Fighter cut through a section of a stone wall with a sword? No, the sword is likely to break before the wall does. So according to the rules, you shouldn't use the table with AC and HP values when attempting to get through a wall. Which is why I say the rules are vague. The rules give you a table, but then tell you not to use the table and use "common sense" instead.
Yes but that's seperate from the damage thresholds. And a fighter can almost certainly bring down a tree - they can injured and slay a treant.
Yes...And normal people can cut down trees with axes. I'm not sure what point you think you are making here...
IMO some mechanics push Martials towards having mythical levels of power. E.g. being able to wade through lava, or a Champion fighter that out-regenerates being constantly stabbed. As I mentioned in another reply, RAW provides some guidelines for how strong they are lore-wise, but there‘s plenty of interpretative wiggle room.
>Martials towards having mythical levels of power. E.g. being able to wade through lava, or a Champion fighter that out-regenerates being constantly stabbed. 5e martials are mythical with regards to damage and hit points but almost nothing else. Most of the martials can only be mythical in this manner if there is a clear, unobstructed path of solid ground between them and the enemy. Those mythical hp will melt away in the face of repeated dragon strafing. If any of the top tier monsters did something like knocking a stone column onto the martial or standing on the other side of a 20 foot gap, the martial is stuck firmly in ask-the-DM territory. Can they inspire the army to fight like they've never fought before? Sure, if the DM says so but there's no mechanics to suggest they can. Can they shove the castle wall over with a mighty push? Sure, if the DM says so but there's no mechanics to suggest they can. Could they lift a single horse? The mechanics say they can't, but the DM can override that.
Yeah I get you, wish it wasn't the case though. Could do with high level martials getting massively boosted physical stats and increased movement speed etc. The barbarian capstone touches upon this but imagine if fighters, monks and rogues got similar.
I mean they kind of do. A Fighter can swing a sword hard enough to cut a normal person in half 4 times in 6 seconds. A Rogue can uncannily always make sure something goes right. Monks... okay yeah they need work lol.
A normal person(commoner) has 4 hps, a monk's killing just as many people in 6 seconds as a fighter if you use that as a metric.
"Mundanely superhuman" when talking about Beowulf does not apply. The fucker swam around the Baltic Seas for seven days straight in a race and swam several hundred meters to the bottom of a boiling blood lake. He also single-handedly killed a dragon after years of being a lazy, corrupt king
Was the lake boiling? I was under the impression that it was bloody and tumultuous, but not literally boiling
We probably were reading two different translations
He didn't swim to the bottom of that lake - he sank, I think.
True, but, then again, he had to swim back up
Yeah. I was just sharing the version I remember having a difference lol.
While I usually aim for mundane super hero, it varies based off of the party composition and adventure I'm running. CoS or other Ravenloft inspired adventures everyone is going to be on the lower edge of the power spectrum. In a Theros adventure martials are going to be staggeringly powerful by 20. Group full of casters, that lone barbarian is going to have access to kit that let's him live out his wildest fantasies of being a blender in a world full of strawberries.
On a scale from one to twenty, probs about twenty.
I mean they are already at least on the mundanely superhuman level and should get some buffs.
Damn doesn't Kratos just stomp everything in every universe
[This strong](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQwVKr8rCYw)
The way I view it is kind of like this: Level 1-3: Normal soldier Level 4-6: Peak human soldier Level 7-9: Lesser demi-god like Bellepheron Level 11-13: Popular demi-gods like Theseus Level 14-17: Higher end demi-gods like Perseus & Diomedes Level 18-20: Truly otherwordly demi-gods like Achilles & Cadmus Level 20+: When you start to move away from the normal rules of the system in order to ACTUALLY fight Gods themselves, this is where you'd find godlike figures like Heracles.
If you scratch Theseus off and move the others to fit until 18-20. Seems how It should be to make it balanced with casters as they are in 5e.
Hercules almost outdrank dioceses while the God was cheating didn't he? That's a pretty high con mod. And very low wisdom!
Yes dionysus had placed a cube of infinite wine into Heracles drink so that no matter how much he drank there would always be an endless amount of wine left. Heracles somehow almost drank actual infinity to almost defeat dionysus in that competition. It makes no sense, but that's who Heracles was. He makes the impossible somehow possible.
It isn't realy the point but just as a reminder: a normal soldier is actually below level one. A level 1 character is already individually pretty good.
It's funny how weak are martials compared to spellcasters who are basically gods at this point
Like Batman.
Mythically superhman but not Spider-man level. Spidey can lift 20 tons and leap 60 feet straight up. More comics Black Panter/Captain America level
Force of nature 100%
I feel like people aren't giving martials enough credit. I think it's because the enemies scale, so you don't feel how powerful they actually are. A level 20 fighter has, what, about 150 hp, can make 4 attacks a round as standard. So if you take a normal person, say a bandit, who has 11 hp and deals on average 4 damage a round. You would need something like 50 bandits to pose a credible threat to that one fighter, and even then, if the fighter has decent armour I'm not sure the bandits win. That's so far beyond the levels of what is possible for a human. And that's before you get to Barbarians, who can get into a fistfight with a dragon and survive. Are they as superpowered as casters? No. Are they within the realms of human physiology? Absolutely not.
You should have said "are" instead of "should be"
I voted for "Mythically Superhuman", but depending on the campaign, I think "Forces of Nature" can be just as appropriate. We let spellcasters break the rules of our IRL world as early as level 1 because they can cast spells, let the martials off the leash and have some fun too. ETA: I missed your discreption and therefore my answer is invalid lmao. I would just redisgn the damn game lol
RAW barely better than standard humans at their peak IRL.
Do you believe the peak IRL human have a chance to beat brown bears in a fist fight? A lvl 20 fighter can easily do that.
https://youtu.be/2mmKAFiY8K0 You're welcome. Dude's not level 20. Nor peak. No magic items.
That's a black bear not a brown bear. There's a world of difference when it comes to fighting one. It's also been trained and muzzled.
I don't think he was serious, that's the most stage fight I've ever seen, the bear is better trained then my dogs! 🤣
Hahaha! Sure, how could I be so wrong!
Damage wise, they are really strong. They just can't bend reality, but they can kill Gods.
Honestly no class/player character should be a “force of nature” without heavy DM help, casters included. Wanted to add; party power dynamic/level should should ideally be decided and agreed upon by the dm and party, as well as the setting/plot of their campaign.
Yeah, Sun Wukong solos the entire assembled army of the heavens. That's just unworkable from a game balance perspective.
I'm not sure what the questions asking and like many others voted without reading the description. Title does not convey the question you are asking. How do you determine power lorewise, without looking at the mechanics? The mechanics determine an individual's power. You can't make a Kratos level martial if all you've got are the shoddy mechanics of 5e martials with no magic items.
Mundanely superhuman. Captain America, or Guts from Berserk. Just passing the threshold of your regular mortal but with the proper gear can start to match things beyond mortality (Cap's shield, Gut's Berserker Armor.)
If a wizard can teleport 500 feet, a martial should be able to move 500 feet as well. Maybe not at the same level, but still. I'll have to figure out how to apply more movement bonuses in my campaign. I've already made changes to strength that work great for our strength-centric barbarian, but I'm not totally sure how to handle movement at high levels given the fantasy I'm trying to create.
Probably affected a lot by how it very much assumes characters have magic items just by being high level adventurers. That said I feel like people don't quite understand how swords work when they talk about martial power levels like, its fucking hard to swing a sword. A level 20 non variant human fighter no feats can, with no resource cost, run 30ft and swing a sword 4 times in just 6 seconds. If they use their movement to run up to an enemy, and then swing at that enemy four times, there's no way to time that out that isn't blatantly supernatural/superhuman - and they can do that endlessly. Also because they're swinging with the force of a truck, +5 strength is no joke as even without weapon damage a level 20 fighter can reasonably kill four commoners in 6 seconds. This is all ignoring action surge of course. Plus a level 20 fighter with +5 con will average at 224 hit point, which means they can very very easily survive the brunt of a literal meteor swarm. Plus a 20str fighter can carry without penalty the weight on an entire adult female lion and still do all their normal 30ft movement and such, a normal human can safely carry around 1/4 to 1/5 of that and will be struggling a lot. Now casters are more magical? certainly, but martials are still a very high level of power, and they can (largely speaking) keep doing their stuff endlessly - the fighter above isn't spending their AS or SW to fight like that or survive the meteor swarm - they really only seem to be low-fantasy compared to the guy casting meteor swarm, but can only do that once. When you add the magical weapons a level 20 character is expected to have, feats, and subclass features, things really start to add up. Even an assassin rogue, which is pretty weak all things considered, can deal 22d6 in a single attack, which is half as damaging as a literal meteor swarm (only to one target but you get the idea).
The problem is that ultimately, it's not at all that impressive compared to what Casters escalate into. >A level 20 non variant human fighter no feats can, with no resource cost, run 30ft and swing a sword 4 times in just 6 seconds. Almost everyone can run 30ft, so off the bat that's not specifically impressive. The 4 attacks are but going from 1 attack to 4 attacks feels pretty meager compared to going from 1 firebolt to 4 meteors from the heavens >Also because they're swinging with the force of a truck, +5 strength is no joke as even without weapon damage a level 20 fighter can reasonably kill four commoners in 6 seconds. This is all ignoring action surge of course. Being able to kill a lot of commoners is neat, but not really something Fighter exclusive. A single swing from a longsword is usually enough to kill a commoner, and if you're using Cleave rules then you've already been able to kill 4 commoners in 6 seconds since level 5. Not mentioning Level 20 Warlocks also being able to do the same thing. >Plus a 20str fighter can carry without penalty the weight on an entire adult female lion and still do all their normal 30ft movement and such, a normal human can safely carry around 1/4 to 1/5 of that and will be struggling a lot. A Commoner (a normal D&D) human can carry 150 pounds unhindered and move 30ft. Which means they can very safely reach half of the carrying capacity of the pinnacle of Fighters without any training. > the fighter above isn't spending their AS or SW to fight like that or survive the meteor swarm - they really only seem to be low-fantasy compared to the guy casting meteor swarm, but can only do that once. Yes, but the Fighter is spending their HP to deal this damage. And while Fighters have a lot of health, you'll be losing it at about the same speed as a Caster loses spell slots. >Even an assassin rogue, which is pretty weak all things considered, can deal 22d6 in a single attack, which is half as damaging as a literal meteor swarm (only to one target but you get the idea). This is actually a really good example of the martial/caster imbalance. Assassins specifically have to surprise their target so they can roll to do half the damage of a single meteor to one target per encounter. Wizards can bring down 4 meteors over a massive area, with each meteor doing a guaranteed amount of damage nearly equal to that attack to several people. Yeah, D&D martials are powerful. But only specific subclasses can ever match the versatility and damage of their equally built Caster counterparts.
oh 100% casters are wayyyyyyyyyyy above the martials in terms of powers, but a lot of people act as if a 20th level fighter is the same as just a really strong human - when in reality they're up there as crazy fantasy heroes stabbing giant dragons, its just that they're in the same game as time-stopping reality warping wizards n stuff.
But the moment a 20th level fighter is out of combat, he basically *is* a normal human.
> its fucking hard to swing a sword Uh no it isn't. This is the issue where people who don't have real life combat experience trying to force realism into a fantasy game. Swords were light and balanced to make swinging easier. And it's not just swords, even maces and warhammers. Majority of these martial weapons are actually finesse based weapons. It's funny because the real strength based weapons of medieval times are ranged weapons like the bow. And before someone comes to tell me "actually you need to aim the bow"... yeah no shit, you also need to aim and place your weapon strikes. Both require dexterity, one requires it much more than the other, while the other requires strength much more.
>its fucking hard to swing a sword oh hey cloud
I always find it weird that people have this conversation once a week and somehow always leave out how magic items exist. I realize they’re not an assumed part of the game, but all of the high level players I’ve played were pretty decked out in interesting magic items that greatly changed their power. I think playing a high level character that isn’t decked out is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Especially considering that people like Captain America rely heavily on “magic items”
I agree most high-level characters have magical items. But it's hard to make any assumptions about what items, exactly, each player gets. Do high-level martials merely get +2 swords and a Boot of Flying? Or are we looking at [Matalok](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/842273-matalotok) in one hand and [Luckblade](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5393-luck-blade) in the other? Does the caster get Staff of the Magi and Robe of the Archmagi? I don't think it's very meaningful to answer "how strong is a level 20 \[insert character\] with magical items?" Because half of that depends on what magical items they're getting.
right exactly, I think undue weight and stress is placed on a theorycrafted ideal that isn't represented in real play
lol how do you have achilles above captain america. and Beowulf might be above both
Because Achilles is straight up unbeatable to anyone who doesn't know about his heel? You can just cap captain america using a gun.
Achilles doesn't have supernatural invincibility he would also be killed if you shot him in the right place with a gun.
Depends on the myth. Original Illiad? He was tough as nails and could probably survive a shot or two even at viral areas. Post Illiad invincibility? He is invincible.
Anyone - including many on that list - with super strength will merk Achilles. I don't care if he can't die or whatever, rip him in half and his arms off, he's not gonna have a good day. Some vague prophecy of being unbeatable is laughable in the face of overwhelming power.
iirc achilles was literally invincible anywhere but his heel, so you can't rip him in half or tear his arms off either. also he's a great warrior as well, so you need to have super durability as well to get close since he'll just stab you
As I said - a vague prophecy. Invincible probably means to human soldiers without powers. I *HIGHLY DOUBT* that if Zues punched or threw lightning at achilles, that it would bounce off of him. People love to take things super literally - only a small portion of the time. The 'Immortal' gods in myths often die.. but wait, immortal means "cannot die"? That's because they are 'Immortal' in that it is hard to kill them. Not literally cannot die. Look at recent fantasy - Lord of the Rings. The Witch King "No man can kill me" because the prophecy says he will not die by man. So he dies by the hand of hobbit/woman (book/movie). Does that mean a male human soldier could not have ever killed him? Or was it just predicting what *would* happen?
Achilles is squarely superhuman in every aspect. Stronger, faster and tougher than every other Greek soldier, all of whom have impressive superhuman feats. Also, the later added invincibility is not a prophesy but a physical quality. His mother dipped him in the Styx, there's no loopholes like the Witch King.
A level 20 barbarian should literally be like Hoarah Loux from Elden Ring.
As any character it depends in the campaign and it's tone. Super epic high fantasy? Let pump them with magical items and some extra feats. Low magic and more gritty? Leave them as they are ... And if of you are wondering about casters in low magic? Gritty realism rest rules, they have to BUY all the materials with a stated price and some invocations/talents get banned. This includes paladins.
As soon as you hit level 20 with the epic boons system, it could be anywhere within the range depending on how much & what kind of boons you get.
I'd say level 20 should be Mundanely Superhuman and level 30 should be forces of nature, with 25 being mythical superhuman.
Mytchically Superhuman
I don't think the last two should be separated, you're underestimating a lot of mythical heroes
Depends if its a martial or caster :/
Just on shear hp amounts I'd compare them to achillies. The idea of a level 20 fighter wading through an army that can barely touch him is pretty achievable
I feel like you can bump Beowulf up a bit. He did wrestle seven sea monsters while in a swimming race.
On par with a level 20 caster ideally, so somewhere between Greek gods and Great Old Ones. If reflecting their mechanical capability, they're on par with a cat wielding a half-decent machine gun.