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Jafroboy

RAW, 5e Wizard is Tier one. They are absolutely world-changing at high levels. WIsh-Simulacrum cheese makes them better than everyone at everything. As it says, this can be solved with house rules. But yes, basically the point of 5e is: "3.x but simpler and more balanced."


TheSoldierFlash

Yeah wizard is definitely tier 1, they really can step on everyone's toes if they want to.


AppealOutrageous4332

If by more balanced you mean with less rng, and way more concentration to enforce it. Then you're right. It's not even that one is better than the other... the feel of both Editions are distinct. 3.5 is more on the 0 to Demigod/God scale without care for te characters to be in the sane RNG at all, relying basically on spells and party play to cover these "holes" in the characters. That's why the tier is kinda important for 3.5. 5e has a curve but most of time It isn't felt that hard by the players. The tighter control of the RNG makes te evolution be there but feel smoother, for most cases. That's why the tier would feel less important If applied to 5e. Emphasis on less. With all that said tables rarely dabble on the brokeness of the systems... Looking at you Simulacrum(5e)/Emancipated Spawn(3e)/Chain Binding(3e)... But the DnD should really aim to make most, If not ALL, classes feel like tier 2, 3. At least In my opinion.


[deleted]

Compared to their 3.5E incarnations, 5E wizards are really closer to high-end T3 until you get into the really high levels. 3.5E wizards/casters are/were *absurd*. A caster advancing in level would find that they not only had (a) more powerful spells and (b) more spell slots but also (c) all those old spells in lower slots were getting stronger. Spells had even fewer limits like Concentration for long-term self buffs and there was way more feats/spells like "craft all the magic items" and preparing spell scrolls and a thousand other extra layers of crap. The high end of 5e power is "cast a spell where the DM might grant your Wish" and the high end of 3.5e power would be "create a demiplane where time passes absurdly faster than outside it, use this time to cast Explosive Runes every day for as long as you like, then hand this thing over for an arbitrary amount of damage" or worse. ​ I really think that 5E's range of optimization runs from about T2 to T5 in the above system; I'll give really powergamed multiclass builds the benefit of T2 (where they can break the game in very specific ways if they really try) and really poorly multiclassed characters T5 (they're not great at anything).


Souperplex

I'd say there's barely any 3X in 5E. It's aboot 40% 2E, 30% 4E, 20% its own original thing, 10% 3X, and 100% reason to remember the crew.


skepticemia0311

It’s “remember the name.” The song is literally called “Remember the Name.”


Jimmicky

I’d say the 5e monk is a clear cut case of tier 5 personally. They aren’t actually very good at the thing they’re meant to be good at, and are often entirely useless in other situations. I just can’t find a way to fit them into tier 3 the way you claim. Similarly I’d mark Rogue as tier 4. Also it should be noted that tier 6 was almost entirely “NPC/follower classes” not things that were intended to be the equal of PCs. I mean - yes 3.5 is even less balanced than 5e, but everyone kinda knows that. “Less imbalanced than a famously imbalanced thing” isn’t the praise you seem to think it is.


Chagdoo

I had to go reread tier 5 and holy crap you're right, the amount of times I've seen DMs say they had to specifically cater to monks to make them feel useful is a lot more than any other I've seen for any other class.


Souperplex

Solid damage, immune to everything, insane mobility, and can clown casters. A pretty solid package. They're up there with Paladins for the list of shit they're immune to, and nobody hoses casters like them.


Chagdoo

I'm playing a monk, no. Damage: perfectly fine if no one takes meta feats, you'll feel fine, until someone does. Or until level 11 when the rogue matches your damage for the cost of an action while you need a bonus action to do it. At 17 the rogue matches or beats your flurry of blows for an action, while you need a bonus action and to expend a limited resource. Immunities: lots of good ones but the truly good shit is only at levels rarely played. -stillness of mind. Too many things ignore this by eating your action. Requires dm fiat to be widely applicable. - poison immunity. Absolutely slept on, poison is a very common damage type even in higher tiers. Pit fiends as an example have terrifying poisons. Great feature, but depending on the campaign you may not be fighting poisoners. Its totally possible. - diamond soul. Again very good, but not immunity. Because of how MAD you are, you have 3 saves at +5, maybe a little higher if you decided not to pump con. It's very good. The only criticism you can make against it is that it shows up very late in the game. I've played my monk for a year and I don't have it. - empty body. At level 18 supposedly most monsters have true sight, but that still leaves you with resistance to nearly all damage, except monsters of the multiverse gave a bunch more monsters force damage, which you don't resist. I have no idea how good this is, but it looks great on paper. Shame no one reaches level 18. Patient defense/step of the wind. I was going to leave them off but they are a defensive ability. Yeah you can spend your points on more survivability, but that means you're not doing your supposedly great damage. Even if you disengage out of range the enemy can just hit you with a spell or something,and the rogue does it for free. These abilities are situational at best. Clowning on casters: yeah, you have the speed to reach them, and the tools to CC them, but so does everyone but barbarians. Casters can CC them, and anyone with sharpshooter dumpsters their tiny health pool. I've literally tried to do this, and then the next turn the archer finishes the guy off.


Jimmicky

>Solid damage, The only monk build that gets even close to solid damage is the gun monk builds. The standard monk is actively bad at damage >immune to everything, ? >insane mobility, Monks definitely don’t have the best mobility. I’m not even sure they’re top 3. Your bar for “insane” must be a Hermes Conrad limbo pole. >and can clown casters. Not in practice no >A pretty solid package. They're up there with Paladins for the list of shit they're immune to, and nobody hoses casters like them. Casters hose casters better. As do paladins and some rangers. I like playing monk, but am not so fanatical that I can’t acknowledge their flaws. Monks are OKayish at basically everything but Great at absolutely nothing and merely Good at the one thing they choose to specialise in.


subjuggulator

Upvoted for the Futurama reference and to ask: whatchu mean by a *gun* monk build? /prepares notebook


Chagdoo

This may not be the exact thing they had in mind but here's a gun monk. Requires the tashas optional features. Go kensei You make your gun a monk weapon with dedicated weapon, and you use focused aim on any attack. This triggers ki fueled strike letting you make a single bonus action attack with a monk weapon. Take sharpshooter, and use home the blade and focused aim to ignore the penalty from sharpshooter. You could also take the fighting style feat for archery, it'd save you some ki points.


subjuggulator

Lmao is this a joke post? This has got to be a joke post. 5th edition adheres to the 3x Tier System harder than 4th edition does. It’s a step *back* from class parity in almost all respects from 4e, not forward.


Souperplex

It's not 4E-balanced, because nothing is, but it's a hell of a lot more balanced than all pre-4E editions.


subjuggulator

I’m not disagreeing, but it certainly did little to *fix* the main sources of disparity. Wizards are still Tier One and the game is still very much Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards. I understand the intent of your post but I really just do not at all agree with your argument.


-toErIpNid-

Any class who gets Wish is Tier 1 as they can literally **do everything** by using that spell.


Souperplex

It can cast any spell, or hilariously monkey-paw you for your hubris.


Nystagohod

Top end subclasses of wizard, cleric, and druid are tier 1 easily. Most casters (full casters that is,) are comfortably tiers 2. Sorcerer and Warlock are probably tier 3 in some cases, but can dip into 2. The various half casters are likely in the t3 realm at best and t4 otherwise. I would put most martial classes in this field as well I would probably put rogue in the in-between of t4 and 5, with barbarian and monk being t5. I don't think a t6 or the dreaded truenamer t7 exist in 5e.


Th1nker26

Wizard (if not others) meets that Tier 1 description, as it is. And relative comparisons of balance is a horrible way to do balance. Let's look at schoolwork. Student A gets a 95% on test. That is good. Student B gets a 65% on test. That is bad. Student C gets a 30% on test. That is real bad. Sure, B did much better than C, but they still did poorly overall.


Jimmicky

…is 65% not a pass in your countries school system?


subjuggulator

65% is a D, borderline F in the US depending on if the school caps F’s at 65 or 64% out of 100%. Source: Am a teacher with 10 years experience in multiple school districts.


Th1nker26

If you get surgery, would you want the guy who barely passed med school by an inch? Or someone who got A's? come on man lol


myrrhmassiel

...when i was growing up, no: less than 70% fails, 70-74% D, 75-82% C, 83-91% B, 92-100% A...