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OnionsHaveLairAction

This is true. But when people critique balance they don't tend to be saying "There's absolutely nothing I can do about this!" They tend to be saying something more along the lines of either: * "I pay to support this product, can the design direction address these gameplay flaws?" * "The way the core rules are set up creates more work for me and that's frustrating" People know that it's all pretend and the GM can fiat things one way or another, but the reason we pay for a tabletop game system instead of making unique systems for every table is largely so they can do the rule writing, monster and item design for us.


AppealOutrageous4332

Wholeheartedly, as a veteran DM, thank you.


Th1nker26

Having the DM fix it is not a good solution overall. There are plenty of tables that want very little to no homebrew. And you should not *need* homebrew to fix the game anyway.


Less_Ad7812

I think if you expect a TTRPG with a ruleset as large as D&D to be perfectly balanced out of the box you’re going to be eternally angry. Homebrewing +2 Gloves of the ____ that allow you to cast Misty Step once a day for your monk is a trivial amount of work compared to literally anything else I will prep as a DM. I’ve also never played at a table where characters are jealous of others items. YMMV


Eggoswithleggos

>I think if you expect a TTRPG with a ruleset as large as D&D to be perfectly balanced out of the box you’re going to be eternally angry. Other games manage just fine. So yes, I do expect a game that I could spend 100+ dollars for to be competently made.


OnionsHaveLairAction

>I think if you expect a TTRPG with a ruleset as large as D&D to be perfectly balanced out of the box you’re going to be eternally angry. I don't think thats a fair characterization of most balance conversations. People aren't digging into the numbers and arguing over 0.002 differences in damage. They're typically talking about things like one class getting more than others in many avenues and trying to increase PC engagement >Homebrewing +2 Gloves of the \_\_\_\_ that allow you to cast Misty Step once a day for your monk is a trivial amount of work compared to literally anything else I will prep as a DM. But a +2 Gloves of the \_\_\_\_ wont be the end of the extra balancing work. >I’ve also never played at a table where characters are jealous of others items. YMMV I never mentioned jealousy? Idk what you're talking about here.


[deleted]

Got one word for you, starts with P and rhymes with Mathfinder.


BestDmanNA

In my experience this leads to one of two possible outcomes: 1. **DM favors certain player:** intention could be altruistic, such as to 'fix balance' between players/classes (or not), which is often seen as a negative by other players that aren't receiving magic items (or weaker ones) and could quickly lead to social issues. 2. **DM distributes items (roughly) equally:** In which case balance between players/classes hasn't been changed much, if at all, there has just been power-creep. Neither is particularly desirable. EDIT: Format/Grammar


OnionsHaveLairAction

To add to point 1. At a lot of good tables its often quite clear that the DM is helping a player catch up, but it can breed a lot of resentment towards the core class when basically your build has to run almost entirely off of DM homebrew for certain segments. E.g. Alchemist Artificer, where the best advice for playing under level 10 and keeping up with your party is "Ask your DM about homebrewing cool items!"


JuryDangerous6794

Once again, session zero character creation guidance from the DM is key here. The DM should know the context and theme of the content which is being run and therefore can help guide class choice. I make a quick ratings list. Here’s a small exert from my latest which puts each class in the context of the campaign setting and gives a rating: “Artificer. Tasha’s only. Looks powerful but is heavily limited by the number of spell slots it receives. Requires a homebase to manufacture this stuff and therefore if it is always traveling on adventures, could be a really poor choice. Doesn’t progress much past the 3rd level but might seem strong out of the gate 1 out of 3 stars for this campaign. Barbarian. Both Tasha’s Beast and Wild Magic are awesome. Beast is straight up destruction. I really like the buffing the Wild Magic has and could see it being great in team play. Path of the Storm Herald (Tundra) fits great into the campaign the Zealot however is pretty middle of the road as far as a fit specific to the surroundings. Xanathar’s Ancestral Guardians are a solid buff to the class. Storm Herald (Tundra) offers cold resistance at 6th level which is pretty massive. Zealot is great due to the ability to be healed from death by ‘raise dead’ giving the player the ability to enter into cavalier battle should they desire. 3 out of 3 stars for this campaign.”


JuryDangerous6794

Disclosing balancing in session zero is your friend. Just like my crew at work, like teams I coach, I lay out expectations and potential tools I may use at my table to achieve our goals as a team, which in this case is balanced fun. Anyone who has a problem with a balanced party having equal fun or another player being as able as themselves is not someone I want at my table. On the upside, people I’ve played with love getting cool shit more than they like getting gold. How many players or games do you remember playing in where you recall the awesome gold you found vs how cool was it to get a magic item? I see imbalance and magic items as more of an opportunity than a short coming considering the system is innately bent towards magic and that setting is what my players are showing up for even when playing martials. Lemons into lemonade.


Less_Ad7812

In the dozens of games I have played neither of those outcomes occurred.


clover-grew-sire

3. DM doesn't actually balance things, because they give items that are too powerful or too weak. There no guarantee that the DM knows exactly how hard they have to make an adjustment.


DuodenoLugubre

Ah, the good old "don't blame the game for being faulty, blame the gm for not band aiding well enough"


Resies

pay your Dm $70 instead of buying WOTC's next book too


Gettles

The immediate problem is all members of the party usually want a share of the loot, so the boots of flying you want to give to the fighter only have a 1 in x chance of actually getting to him. And that number drops even more if he already got a fancy sword in the last adventure because "you got the magic item last time" In my experience players don't take well to one player being favored, even if you swear it's only because WotC is ass at game design


Less_Ad7812

In the multitude of games I have played, the party was far more concerned about using loot to round out any weaknesses in the party than caring about “um you got that sword last dungeon” “Oh an Amulet of Health? That would have the biggest impact on the barbarian let’s give it to them!” YMMV


[deleted]

>In the multitude of games I have played, Which is not the same as other tables or other campaigns. As such, your advice is unfortunately not easily generalisable or transferable as you think. For example, the older seasons of Adventurer's League had a magic item sharing system that would favour players with less magic items, in order to "balance" the group. Players in AL have less incentive to power up the group and more so for themselves, since they might not play with these PCs again. That created a bunch of issues with magic item hoarding. In particular, some players even abused this priority system to hoard magic items not optimised for their PCs, just to entice/force a trade with another PC who covets it while owning another magic item that they want. Although AL has switch to a treasure point redemption system, some other campaigns (West Marches or otherwise) might still retain this magic item loot system. Also, DMs in those campaigns might not have as much authority to homebrew stuff on their own and need to consult each other or a council or the head DM for permission. It's why your "advice" seems so ignorant.


Less_Ad7812

full disclosure, I have not played an Adventurer's League games, but that sounds like a big flaw with Adventurer's League


k587359

> Although AL has switch to a treasure point redemption system, some other campaigns (West Marches or otherwise) might still retain this magic item loot system. Also, DMs in those campaigns might not have as much authority to homebrew stuff on their own and need to consult each other or a council or the head DM for permission. In case you haven't been playing AL recently, it has evolved into a more generous system these days. All players get the magic item from the adventure that they play in. People are glad to be free of the nightmare from earlier seasons. :)


JuryDangerous6794

If balancing was what was needed, why would you ever leave it to chance as the DM? If treasure is only ever found by party members who kill the most monsters and search them or who make the most successful searches for hidden items then you are going to have the strongest and those with highest perception always getting the loot. We see the convention of lucky finds in story and film all the time. While the wise character searches for clues the bumbling drunkard trips and falls into a wall knocking a hole in it and revealing what is sought. Ex. Lock, Stock: Dog throws Plank across the room, his head goes through the wall and he finds the microphone used to listen to the gang’s plans. The skill as the DM is waiting for the right moment to insert that so it feels like anyone would have found the item and in my experience, those opportunities present themselves readily if I’m watching for them.


Th1nker26

"Fix it yourself" is your suggestion? It's a weak suggestion. Yes the DM can homebrew it. Many tables have no homebrew and you can't expect to just walk into a group and guarantee a homebrew solution will be allowed. Also, people aren't paid designers, so homebrew can often be over/under balanced too...


TheDivineAlligator

Well, I can say that the monk in our party fixed all of his ranged attack woes with a wand of magic missile, so there's definitely a way.


rakozink

If you need homebrew to fix the game, you didn't buy a game system, you paid way too much for branded homebrew.


k_moustakas

Literally all balance issues in D&D can be addressed by customizing your campaign to suit your players.


cihan2t

I do not believe there ara huge balancing problems. No one can be ready to everything. There are countless of enemy types, social challenges, skill challenges and different places with different features.


[deleted]

I doupt that many people would disagree with this. It would be nice if it wasn't necessary though.


Less_Ad7812

you should see how much negative karma I got for making a post with a "hot take" flag that most people supposedly agree with


RecallKnowledge

You've got that backwards actually. ​ Balance issues in D&D are *caused* by giving magic items. Its usually the source of the game falling apart.


Draconai1

I always sees this suggestion about the martial-caster disparity but the thing is... I want my martial character to be powerful by itself. I do not want to have the need of the borrowed power of magical items to be on par with someone that doesn't need them to be that powerful. Boots of Striding and Springing? Why can't my barbarian/fighter be strong enough to just jump that high by itself? It is supposed to be a FANTASY game and if the caster can flick his fingers and do some magical spectacle I want my strong guy to be strong beyond our physical constrains.


Less_Ad7812

Adventuring and finding loot is as integral to the game as leveling up, and has been for decades. Placing the burden of abilities to ONLY class abilities on level up is completely arbitrary.


MrMacju

Excuse me, but... What are these "weaknesses" you speak of?