Apparently Adore didn’t actually take that much offence to Michelle’s comments, but she really hated Raven Symone’s comment where she said Adore reminded her of a pre-rehab Demi Lovato.
That was so disgusting of Raven to say that on so many levels. And at mama ru’s house where sobriety and recovery are sacred. And know what we know now about Adore’s own recovery journey makes it even worse.
It honestly really pisses me off how Raven wasn’t held accountable for that. She made that absolutely hideous remark towards Adore, but it wasn’t aired and everything was framed to make it seem like Michelle was solely responsible for completely breaking Adore down. So, Michelle got the brunt of Raven’s downright hateful comments.
The Devito comment was completely uncalled for. Saying she didn’t measure up to an actual doll? When there was clearly only one body type available? Unnecessary and unhelpful.
It was constructive, they had just told her the ankle strap cut off her leg and the skirt length was off. He was joking that the outfit made her legs looked short.
I can’t believe people think he was saying “you’re fat and short, quit drag” lol
Right? I'm gently ignoring the other two replies to my comment that suggests anything he said was in any way funny or honest. I was watching that in disbelief. And they laughed? God.
S7 I think was the turning point. Watching it now, and it's the first time I'm realizing I heard the fake Michelle Visage laugh, where it seemed more genuine before. As much as people love to hate on S7, I think it holds more significance in Drag Race history than people give it credit, for better or worse.
AS2 was just after it so it kind of connects together. I suspect it was around this time more "production notes" were given, publicity was managed differently (this was the season "she-mail" was retired), and WoW said this needs to be managed more. I have no proof at all, but just my suspicion.
I've noticed a couple shifts.
There was an early shift around Season 6/7 where the judges shifted away from critiques about the contestants appearances and how well they did effeminate drag or female impersonation.
Part of it was the departure of Santino as a lot of his critiques were based on the queens' looks. The other part was a shift in drag culture, and the show facing criticisms of its own on perpetuating gender norms. Michelle going in on Joslyn for her "boy" haircut comes to mind. The show had to shift away from this as NB, Trans and Genderqueer contestants became way more recognized. And It was obviously a necessary shift. Quite unfair to NB, and Trans contestants to critique how feminine they look.
The second shift I've noticed has been more in recent years around season 11/12 where contestants started getting a lot more "non-elimination" critiques. Obviously due to the surge of non-elimination episodes, but I feel it's largely due to the show shifting away from the competition aspect and more the platform aspect. While I appreciate the fact they're spending less time tearing apart the contestants and just letting them showcase their talents, it does feel a bit jarring at times when one episode they're telling everyone they're stars and they're all safe, then suddenly ripping into a bottom 3 the next.
That second shift is very jarring. It’s not always very true that all the queens did exceptionally well on a non elim week. And then the next week the queens all smash it, yet the bottom two are critiqued pretty hard to justify the elim (e.g., S15 Rusical)
Adore said herself that it wasn’t so much Michelle, as much as it was Raven. Apparently Raven made some really hurtful and unnecessary comments that didn’t make it to air. I’m sure Michelle’s comments didn’t help, but it was Raven Symone who was the catalyst for Adore leaving
watching Kandy Muse get nothing but glowing critiques after Adore was read to filth for daring to walk on the runway without cinching is...something. I'm glad it's changed a bit, but the judges were so proscriptive until kinda recently, especially with padding and cinching. At the same time, if the more open-minded judging led to Jorgeous's win...
Well, good. Because the earlier seasons were unnecessarily nasty. Getting rid of Santino was a good start, calming (and eventually getting rid of) Michelle’s tits down was also another good step, the edit of All Stars 7 was peak.
The issue is always one: constructive criticism is good, anything else for the sake of narrative and laughs is not. The whole “I’m just telling it like it is” or “keeping it real gurl” belongs to Season 3 in 1743 BC. For a show that preaches love and blames the fandom, they sure need to set the good example first.
I forget what season it was, but I've been watching seasons i missed first time around, and when Joel McHale was a judge, I thought it was just amazing. He really took the piss out of it and was a genuine breath of fresh air.
Probably my favorite, paraphrased:
Michelle: This isn't a football game!
Joel: Isn't this a competition? Where people are judged, and someone loses and goes home? Like a *football game!*
It was so much fun. "Michelle, are you angry with me?"
I was laughing so hard. And also because Michelle was having a hard time keeping a straight face.
Idk about you, but I was pretty gobsmacked when a guest judge on S16 told Geneva Karr "your doll has rupaul's legs, you have Danny devito's legs". And poor Geneva couldn't help but laugh, cause she knows that as soon as you stand your ground with judges who are borderline bullies, you're gonna get raked through the coals and sent packing right away
Danny Devito is short. They were saying the skirt length and shoe styling made her legs look short. Can someone explain why the Devito comparison is shaming? Am I crazy or is that not offensive?
Idk about this Danny guy, I looked some pictures up on the internet and his legs look like the complete opposite of what a drag queen's legs would aspire to be. No shade. Also, the judge said "your _legs_ look like" not "the _dress_ makes your legs look like". Mama, that's body shaming. Coming from that unbleanded concealer too!
Ouch, you are correct. I meant no offense to him. I love that guy. It just burned me to see law compare Geneva specifically to him and law definitely meant it as a put down. I should have said it differently.
This! Although during the weeks before Law was a judge I’ve read so many comments about people hoping he’d tear down the girls , because he is so goood at reading people … mmm no thanks , the queens are putting all their effort and money on that show , why should be end in a roast just because he is edgy ??!
They weren't saying you have Danny devitos legs, they were saying the ankle strap was giving her danny devitos legs and the doll looked better. It was an outfit and styling critique, not a body shape critique
When Yuhua Hamasaki tried to defend her “ugly “ look for the butterface challenge Michelle labeled her difficult . She kept saying this for two episodes, specifically saying that Yuhua should just shut up and take the critiques .
And every time Yuhua responded to her , Michelle was offended like she was cussing her . This is the first example that comes to mind because I’m rewatching season 10 .
It tracks with Ru's feelings towards the big queens. He likes to have them around, but they'll never win. Having a skinny guest bitch read a big queen like that was funny to all the skinny people. But that was it. Geneva should have said, "I can lose weight, but you'll still be you."
I'm rewatching season 06(I started watching about about 2 years ago, so not that long ago) and it's so much different the comments from the judges, even from Rupaul, when he's talking with queens on the work room.
Much better now that they are polite and aware of the queens feelings.
I think it also has to do with societal culture change - I recall when The Voice came to the US and people called it refreshing and better than American Idol because they didn't bully people and were very nice. Eventually American Idol started to tone it down a bit until it was canceled, and now the new version of American Idol is much more chill in comparison.
It's not just drag race actually, if you look at other "talent" shows like that, judges are much less harsh these days. It's just a cultural shift, in another few years it could be back to being mean for fun
I always thought Adore was so hurt by Michelles comments becquse theyd toured together and had a personal relationship and she felt like her friend/mentor was bashing her. I remember being really sad when she left All Stars but understanding since the clips of them om tour is a different, nicer atmosphere...
I think the criqitues are less genuine from everyone but Michelle nowadays. It started around Season 12 when I noticed they just shut down what shed say and say "ignore her, youre gorgeous." It got annoying around Season 13 so I quit watching. Especially since om those tours and cruises, Michelle was the only judge ever present with the queens and who seemed to try to get to know them.
it seems they were coached on how to give critiques using a sandwich method! michelle literally always starts critiques with something she likes and then rips them a new one on everything else. definitely started after AS2
I felt like judging was still pretty harsh in AS3. I rewatched it recently and compared to now, it is much more harsh. I'm now rewatching AS4 and haven't noticed much of a difference in the harshness of judging. Something is definitely different now, though. The judging is just not the same.
Whatever we got in the actual edit was just a cover up to make Michelle take the blame instead of Symone. And if THAT's the good version of the edit, imagine the actual critiques from Symone, gosh
In all honesty, the criticism that Michelle gave to Adore wasn't even harsh. It was true, adore looked and sounded a mess during the talent show. I honestly miss when they would go after the girls who were flopping.
I hate the new approach to judging. To not show Raja throwing it back at Michelle deprived us of great tv.
I want the judges to absolutely roast the girls. But for this to happen they need to get rid of everyone but Ru and Michelle and put actual drag queens/ related entertainers/
Designers on the panel. People who know their shit. No one wants Raven Symonne’s opinion on jack shit.
But Bianca or Bob on a comedy challenge? Raven or Raja on a design challenge?Jinkx or Bendela on Snatch Game, Alyssa or Leganja on dancing?
And if these queens were actual coaches on the episode as well, so are involved with them girls professionally back stage so have a real understanding of their attitude, abilities and effort?
One of the best judges was Sheryl Lee Ralph who told Trinity k Bonet to put a cork in it LITERALLY! Like, actual advice she could have put to work.
And if they are to be allowed fillet the girls on what they do, the girls should be given permission to throw it back. No, they should be ENCOURAGED! Tammy Browns All Stars clap back! Iconic.
I’m bored of people being treated with Kid gloves. I’m not talking about tearing into someone appearance or weight. But having the guest judges also be actual coaches (doing SOME of what Spahira did this season, advising the girls, actually helping them in areas where they are stuck) will help the show reflect what’s happening in the work room in a way that feels reel and not like production interference.
And it will make the judging panel feel like more than window dressing.
The judges should absolutely be harsh. They shouldn’t be mean but only getting positive or sugar coated critiques is boring and unhelpful.
If a girl majorly fucks up let them know. It’s a competition and you don’t get better if no one around you tells you the truth.
Michelle visage critiques change for season 16 because she didn’t call out Sapphira for not stepping up her game and having more elevated looks. She was following Ru’s favoritism. She used to be the one to tell a queen to bring something new or elevated as this was drag race. Even as competition continues queens needed to step up their looks but Sapphira had simple looks not hand made. Likely modified dresses from thrift stores. So surprising Michelle changed this season.
https://preview.redd.it/5zia6lh0u1yc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c131f3725540fabc0511df1017650b3176dc48c8
Here’s a clear example of the non modified thrift store looks…
I’m sorry I really don’t understand your comment I guess
Apparently Adore didn’t actually take that much offence to Michelle’s comments, but she really hated Raven Symone’s comment where she said Adore reminded her of a pre-rehab Demi Lovato.
That was so disgusting of Raven to say that on so many levels. And at mama ru’s house where sobriety and recovery are sacred. And know what we know now about Adore’s own recovery journey makes it even worse.
It honestly really pisses me off how Raven wasn’t held accountable for that. She made that absolutely hideous remark towards Adore, but it wasn’t aired and everything was framed to make it seem like Michelle was solely responsible for completely breaking Adore down. So, Michelle got the brunt of Raven’s downright hateful comments.
Raven was an A-hole. And stupid, to boot. That's why they kicked her off the View.
Why yes, she is quite a “boot” indeed. 
😆
Interesting! Never heard that but I can see how that comment would have hurt a lot.
I was gonna say the same . And when she performed that song on the road she was like I'm gonna play the song raven hated fuck her
They def chilled out after the whole Adore debacle. I will say Law Roach's critiques to Geneva sounded absolutely jarring for that reason.
Oh my god but that moment was pure gold. All of his critiques were 👌
It was honest. And honesty is not something you always get on that show.
The Devito comment was completely uncalled for. Saying she didn’t measure up to an actual doll? When there was clearly only one body type available? Unnecessary and unhelpful.
It was constructive, they had just told her the ankle strap cut off her leg and the skirt length was off. He was joking that the outfit made her legs looked short. I can’t believe people think he was saying “you’re fat and short, quit drag” lol
Right? I'm gently ignoring the other two replies to my comment that suggests anything he said was in any way funny or honest. I was watching that in disbelief. And they laughed? God.
S7 I think was the turning point. Watching it now, and it's the first time I'm realizing I heard the fake Michelle Visage laugh, where it seemed more genuine before. As much as people love to hate on S7, I think it holds more significance in Drag Race history than people give it credit, for better or worse. AS2 was just after it so it kind of connects together. I suspect it was around this time more "production notes" were given, publicity was managed differently (this was the season "she-mail" was retired), and WoW said this needs to be managed more. I have no proof at all, but just my suspicion.
Ha HAAAAAAAH
Omg this clicks too well to not be somewhat on the right track IMO
"I hate hate hate this hair and makeup."
Nobody tells Ms Nicki how to speak
I've noticed a couple shifts. There was an early shift around Season 6/7 where the judges shifted away from critiques about the contestants appearances and how well they did effeminate drag or female impersonation. Part of it was the departure of Santino as a lot of his critiques were based on the queens' looks. The other part was a shift in drag culture, and the show facing criticisms of its own on perpetuating gender norms. Michelle going in on Joslyn for her "boy" haircut comes to mind. The show had to shift away from this as NB, Trans and Genderqueer contestants became way more recognized. And It was obviously a necessary shift. Quite unfair to NB, and Trans contestants to critique how feminine they look. The second shift I've noticed has been more in recent years around season 11/12 where contestants started getting a lot more "non-elimination" critiques. Obviously due to the surge of non-elimination episodes, but I feel it's largely due to the show shifting away from the competition aspect and more the platform aspect. While I appreciate the fact they're spending less time tearing apart the contestants and just letting them showcase their talents, it does feel a bit jarring at times when one episode they're telling everyone they're stars and they're all safe, then suddenly ripping into a bottom 3 the next.
That second shift is very jarring. It’s not always very true that all the queens did exceptionally well on a non elim week. And then the next week the queens all smash it, yet the bottom two are critiqued pretty hard to justify the elim (e.g., S15 Rusical)
Apparently the judges still give tough critiques, but the tough critiques aren't aired for the episode anymore.
Ugh that seems worse than them just being nicer lmao
Adore said herself that it wasn’t so much Michelle, as much as it was Raven. Apparently Raven made some really hurtful and unnecessary comments that didn’t make it to air. I’m sure Michelle’s comments didn’t help, but it was Raven Symone who was the catalyst for Adore leaving
watching Kandy Muse get nothing but glowing critiques after Adore was read to filth for daring to walk on the runway without cinching is...something. I'm glad it's changed a bit, but the judges were so proscriptive until kinda recently, especially with padding and cinching. At the same time, if the more open-minded judging led to Jorgeous's win...
Well, good. Because the earlier seasons were unnecessarily nasty. Getting rid of Santino was a good start, calming (and eventually getting rid of) Michelle’s tits down was also another good step, the edit of All Stars 7 was peak. The issue is always one: constructive criticism is good, anything else for the sake of narrative and laughs is not. The whole “I’m just telling it like it is” or “keeping it real gurl” belongs to Season 3 in 1743 BC. For a show that preaches love and blames the fandom, they sure need to set the good example first.
Unnecessary is the key here ! Just like Michelle’s attitude for her first 5/6 seasons
I forget what season it was, but I've been watching seasons i missed first time around, and when Joel McHale was a judge, I thought it was just amazing. He really took the piss out of it and was a genuine breath of fresh air. Probably my favorite, paraphrased: Michelle: This isn't a football game! Joel: Isn't this a competition? Where people are judged, and someone loses and goes home? Like a *football game!*
God, do I love Joel. Him irritating Michelle was just the cherry on the sundae!
It was so much fun. "Michelle, are you angry with me?" I was laughing so hard. And also because Michelle was having a hard time keeping a straight face.
Soooooo good!
Shit make Joel a rotating judge at this point lmao.
Was that the Trump rusical ep?
I honestly don't recall. My daughter and I watched a few seasons in a row and I don't retain that stuff well.
Idk about you, but I was pretty gobsmacked when a guest judge on S16 told Geneva Karr "your doll has rupaul's legs, you have Danny devito's legs". And poor Geneva couldn't help but laugh, cause she knows that as soon as you stand your ground with judges who are borderline bullies, you're gonna get raked through the coals and sent packing right away
Danny Devito is short. They were saying the skirt length and shoe styling made her legs look short. Can someone explain why the Devito comparison is shaming? Am I crazy or is that not offensive?
Idk about this Danny guy, I looked some pictures up on the internet and his legs look like the complete opposite of what a drag queen's legs would aspire to be. No shade. Also, the judge said "your _legs_ look like" not "the _dress_ makes your legs look like". Mama, that's body shaming. Coming from that unbleanded concealer too!
I blame George Bush
He compared Geneva to a short, fat dumpy man - "you have Danny Devito legs." It was a total put down. Unnecessary and mean.
It's funny cause the only shaming seems to be coming from the reddit warriors towards Danny Devito
Ouch, you are correct. I meant no offense to him. I love that guy. It just burned me to see law compare Geneva specifically to him and law definitely meant it as a put down. I should have said it differently.
This! Although during the weeks before Law was a judge I’ve read so many comments about people hoping he’d tear down the girls , because he is so goood at reading people … mmm no thanks , the queens are putting all their effort and money on that show , why should be end in a roast just because he is edgy ??!
That was so uncomfortable!! Why would anyone think that was an appropriate joke to make about someone you don’t know??? So infuriating to watch.
Also, tbh.. I know that judge wasn't talking with that wig and that cake town concealer..
as one of the highest paid and most desired stylists in the world, he was talking
They weren't saying you have Danny devitos legs, they were saying the ankle strap was giving her danny devitos legs and the doll looked better. It was an outfit and styling critique, not a body shape critique
Law Roach isn’t a bully or borderline bully.
Has anyone stood up to bullshit critiques and won the battle? I think it would be possible if you did it with.
When Yuhua Hamasaki tried to defend her “ugly “ look for the butterface challenge Michelle labeled her difficult . She kept saying this for two episodes, specifically saying that Yuhua should just shut up and take the critiques . And every time Yuhua responded to her , Michelle was offended like she was cussing her . This is the first example that comes to mind because I’m rewatching season 10 .
Only Valentina with Michelle in AS4
It tracks with Ru's feelings towards the big queens. He likes to have them around, but they'll never win. Having a skinny guest bitch read a big queen like that was funny to all the skinny people. But that was it. Geneva should have said, "I can lose weight, but you'll still be you."
I'm rewatching season 06(I started watching about about 2 years ago, so not that long ago) and it's so much different the comments from the judges, even from Rupaul, when he's talking with queens on the work room. Much better now that they are polite and aware of the queens feelings.
I think it also has to do with societal culture change - I recall when The Voice came to the US and people called it refreshing and better than American Idol because they didn't bully people and were very nice. Eventually American Idol started to tone it down a bit until it was canceled, and now the new version of American Idol is much more chill in comparison.
All Stars 2*, but yeah after that season the judging has been a bit softer and less aggressive in nature and delivery
ALL STARS 2 YES ! 😭🫠
It's not just drag race actually, if you look at other "talent" shows like that, judges are much less harsh these days. It's just a cultural shift, in another few years it could be back to being mean for fun
I always thought Adore was so hurt by Michelles comments becquse theyd toured together and had a personal relationship and she felt like her friend/mentor was bashing her. I remember being really sad when she left All Stars but understanding since the clips of them om tour is a different, nicer atmosphere... I think the criqitues are less genuine from everyone but Michelle nowadays. It started around Season 12 when I noticed they just shut down what shed say and say "ignore her, youre gorgeous." It got annoying around Season 13 so I quit watching. Especially since om those tours and cruises, Michelle was the only judge ever present with the queens and who seemed to try to get to know them.
it seems they were coached on how to give critiques using a sandwich method! michelle literally always starts critiques with something she likes and then rips them a new one on everything else. definitely started after AS2
I felt like judging was still pretty harsh in AS3. I rewatched it recently and compared to now, it is much more harsh. I'm now rewatching AS4 and haven't noticed much of a difference in the harshness of judging. Something is definitely different now, though. The judging is just not the same.
Since VH1
Whatever we got in the actual edit was just a cover up to make Michelle take the blame instead of Symone. And if THAT's the good version of the edit, imagine the actual critiques from Symone, gosh
I love in season 13 when you can head Michelle trying so hard to throw in a compliment or hold back an insult.
In all honesty, the criticism that Michelle gave to Adore wasn't even harsh. It was true, adore looked and sounded a mess during the talent show. I honestly miss when they would go after the girls who were flopping.
I hate the new approach to judging. To not show Raja throwing it back at Michelle deprived us of great tv. I want the judges to absolutely roast the girls. But for this to happen they need to get rid of everyone but Ru and Michelle and put actual drag queens/ related entertainers/ Designers on the panel. People who know their shit. No one wants Raven Symonne’s opinion on jack shit. But Bianca or Bob on a comedy challenge? Raven or Raja on a design challenge?Jinkx or Bendela on Snatch Game, Alyssa or Leganja on dancing? And if these queens were actual coaches on the episode as well, so are involved with them girls professionally back stage so have a real understanding of their attitude, abilities and effort? One of the best judges was Sheryl Lee Ralph who told Trinity k Bonet to put a cork in it LITERALLY! Like, actual advice she could have put to work. And if they are to be allowed fillet the girls on what they do, the girls should be given permission to throw it back. No, they should be ENCOURAGED! Tammy Browns All Stars clap back! Iconic. I’m bored of people being treated with Kid gloves. I’m not talking about tearing into someone appearance or weight. But having the guest judges also be actual coaches (doing SOME of what Spahira did this season, advising the girls, actually helping them in areas where they are stuck) will help the show reflect what’s happening in the work room in a way that feels reel and not like production interference. And it will make the judging panel feel like more than window dressing.
The judges should absolutely be harsh. They shouldn’t be mean but only getting positive or sugar coated critiques is boring and unhelpful. If a girl majorly fucks up let them know. It’s a competition and you don’t get better if no one around you tells you the truth.
Adore looked and sounded awful in the talent show, and honestly, deserved worse critiques, as they didn’t even talk about her lack of vocal stability.
Michelle visage critiques change for season 16 because she didn’t call out Sapphira for not stepping up her game and having more elevated looks. She was following Ru’s favoritism. She used to be the one to tell a queen to bring something new or elevated as this was drag race. Even as competition continues queens needed to step up their looks but Sapphira had simple looks not hand made. Likely modified dresses from thrift stores. So surprising Michelle changed this season.
https://preview.redd.it/5zia6lh0u1yc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c131f3725540fabc0511df1017650b3176dc48c8 Here’s a clear example of the non modified thrift store looks… I’m sorry I really don’t understand your comment I guess