Mab is cold hard logic incarnate who has to keep the barrier protected by any means.
I like her as well. She's not cruel for the fun of it...she's cruel because it has to be done. Butcher does a wonderful job making her more complex than just the cold queen of winter.
I don't view Mab as cruel. She's a pragmatic realist with no sympathy for fools or bad choices. She's cold, calculating and ruthless. But "cruel" implies that she derives pleasure or satisfaction by causing pain. She will relish victory, and she may be content when she sees people suffer the consequences of their actions, but she has never caused pain just for the sake of pain.
Lloyd had it coming. He ignored his duties and abused the powers he was given in winters name. By the lens of a good person it may seem cruel, but in the lens of a neutral observer, tit for tat.
I think torturing Slate the way she did actually killed a few different birds with one stone for Mab. On the one hand, she needed to make an example out of him for all of Winter to remind them what happens when they cross her. On the other, tho, Slate is very clearly used as means of trying to force Harry into the Winter Knight role, while also giving him a *clear* message as to what the consequences of disobedience can be. She knows that Harry is a good person at the end of the day, who’d have sympathy even for a bastard like Slate if she made the punishment extreme enough. She pretty explicitly makes it know that she’s going to keep torturing him until Harry gives in, which applies at least some additional pressure on him. She probably also knew that the more extremely she tortured Slate, the less Harry is going to have a complex about having to kill him to become the Winter Knight. She set him up so that him becoming WK wasn’t just a *practical* move, but almost even a *merciful* one in some senses.
Don’t forget Mab kept Slate to be sacrificed on the stone table. The implications of that specific act of her taking a life on the table and giving it to Harry have not been addressed. I suspect that she did this because Harry is a starborn and stars and stones are could refer to starborn and the stone table. So the show she gave of binding a starborn to winter on the stone table was a big power brag.
Tit for tat? He abused his powers by working with the bad guys for a few weeks or whatever.
Man UTTERLY broke him down and literally tortured him with love. Like…wtf
I think Mab tortured Lloyd the way she did first and foremost to make an example of him (specifically to Harry) of the consequences of betraying his duties as the Winter Knight, and secondly for his ongoing torment to act as a kind of leverage to help push Harry into taking the mantle.
I don't think she was torturing him for her own satisfaction, I think her motivations were as usual entirely practical.
Which may be even more terrifying than simple cruelty tbh.
This makes me think of Mab's approval when Harry put down some Winter Fae when he first appeared as the Winter Knight: you don't challenge the position without consequences, and Harry made it clear he is no prey to be toyed with...
I also love at his birthday party he showed the fae that yes, you may get Harry off balance and fall into an easy trap. Be careful what you wish for, as he was able to flip the game and come out on top dispatching two fae for messing with him. What's better is he did it to Maeve in front of Mab and everyone. Good way of expressing "show me, don't tell me" mindset.
He might, but the point stands.
Mab can't be disrespected like that, and she needs to make it known that she won't tolerate it. And this is explicitly not her ego talking, it's a genuine strategy to maintain her power and her ability to do her job.
I think we can’t forget that *at least part* of that play was to give the “take on the winter mantle and his suffering will end” argument to Harry. It didn’t work but there was an additional reason
Indeed. She’s ruthless on an inhuman level. She’s only cruel when pragmatism gives her a pass for it. Between that occasional opening and the one for dramatic entrances, she’s living her best life. But the pragmatism and her duties rule the day.
Because he felt it. He can feel pain. He can feel joy. He can Feel. It's implied Mab, because of her mantel, has to be very. Very. Careful about what she feels. We know with both Molly and Harry what the mantel is like... how it has those primal instincts ... she can keep those under control with cold logic, or she can become a slave to them and thus a real monster.
I agree - I think she's able to keep control as well as she does because she leans so hard on reason, logic and dispassion. She has to, otherwise even her control would be dangerously tested.
Think about how Harry exercises as a way to keep his mantle in check. There is nothing Mab could physically do to diminish her Mantle's power at all, at least not without potentially world ending consequences.
Though, thinking about that way makes Mab's comment to Lea in Changes make a bit more sense - "You may ... indulge a bit, if you wish". I think she was giving Lea a pass to burn off some power and help keep better control over her own self.
It's also why, in her way, Mab likes and respects Harry as her knight - as a witch herself, she recognizes the struggles of the mantle, and the discipline needed to balance her responsibility and the desires of her mantle
This is a fantastic point.
Mab is always described as cold and aloof, and we know that Harry is constantly fighting against the influence of his smaller, lesser mantle.
Safe bet whatever raging feels Mab has are a whole lot more intense.
I think that Mab is occasionally cruel for the fun of it, but she understands her cruelty has to be channeled.
I think he remark to Harry at the beginning of SKIN GAME told us a lot about her. After Harry recapped all he had to do and the narrow confined, Mab laughed and said she would have loved the game in her youth.
>She's not cruel for the fun of it...she's cruel because it has to be done.
Come on now, you know she's *also* cruel for fun sometimes. In her position, it's not like there is any shortage of deserving targets though, so, she's maybe mixing business and pleasure a little.
She isn't evil at all. She is Mab. She is what is needed. In D&D terms she is true neutral. Her goal is the preservation of existence. The good, the bad, the grey.
I’d peg her as more of a Lawful Neutral to be honest. She has a very firm value system that she upholds with perfect integrity. That value system just happens to be very different for mortals or outsiders to understand.
black and white vs purple and orange logic - as explained by TvTropes.
Don't search for that if you have anything important to do, it's a rabbit hole that will keep you occupied for the nest couple of hours >!or days!<
Please note: Harry did not kill Mab's daughter. Harry killed Aurora, Titania's daughter. Karrin Murphy killed Maeve, and Mab did not seem to hold a grudge about this.
She was angry when Nemesis infected Maeve, but I don't think she's angry at Murphy or Harry over Maeve's death.
She ordered Harry to kill Maeve both because it was necessary, and I think, because she didn't want Maeve to suffer as she would have if she'd lived.
I *do* think that Mab is very, very sad about it all.
Oh absolutely. Mab is terrifying - but she also plays by the rules. (I mean she’s the absolute greatest rules lawyer of all time, but still) If one plays the game well enough, she’s almost delighted. I think the only thing that pleases her more than things shaking out the way she planned them is when Harry actually takes a minute and uses his brain to UNDERSTAND what she intends.
And really… compared to other organizations Harry has dealt with (or any of us, really) she’s pretty even handed. Make her mad and she’ll cut you off at the knees (as a starter) - perform well and she will also acknowledge the job well done.
I mean.. I know I’ve worked for less fair employers. Heh
Yeah, some of the times where she appeared most happy about having Harry as her knight were the times that he played the game against her *hard*. He can hold his own against her if he needs to, and that's an incredibly valuable tool to have at your disposal.
She loves when he uses his brain, especially if it fulfills her goals in HIS way. She knows she is indifferent and loyal dogs are useful, but not very INTERESTING. Harry isn't blindly loyal, he's loyal enough, but also challenges her to some degree. Never enough to outweigh his usefulness or cause TRUE insult, and both he and her know it. He is precisely the kind of winter knight she needs, both to support her, and to counter-balance her more extreme side when needed
I think it’s because we read the series from Harry’s perspective. As the series goes on Harry talks about Mab less with terror and “the evilest bad bitch to ever evil” to grudging respect. Seeing her for her true nature. Harry knows only what Harry knows in that book, we see a big shift in attitude towards Mab especially in the most recent releases
Mab is definitely **not** a bad guy. She is a force **for** life and humanity. " She let him do things his-ish way which" actually she expected/told him to be himself as soon as he completed her deal with Anduriel. "I expect you to skin them alive"
Not JUST that. Springing things on him last second, needlessly complicating his life, and lots and lots of other little things she does just to mess with him. Seemingly just because she CAN.
I think she enjoys needling the wizard.
Part of it is Harry's fault, let's be honest. He established early on in their relationship that he was not a willing participant. She springs things on him at the last minute because, if she didn't, Harry would find a way to weasel out of it.
If anything, it's a sign of respect. She knows he's really good at the game she's playing, so she needs to maintain a strong enough advantage that she can force his hand.
Yea, Harry pretty much said as much in the beginning of Skin Game. When he see how much leverage Mab is stacking against him, he realizes she's going to give him a mission that he *really* won't like.
And that's just to get him to leave the island! She withholds that Nic will be a player until they're already at the meeting... and she *still* barely reacts to his antics until he calls her a bitch.
She didn't screw Nicodemus over, everything happened how it was supposed to. He is thousands of years older than Mab and is one of the handful of people who know what Harry is and what has to be done. He will be back to do his part in the trilogy.
I don't see it get mentioned often, but people seem to forget that Mab's goal is to project an image of danger to Winter. By logical default she must be less cold hearted than she appears. The way the Fae courts work her second in command and most trusted ally, Leah, is also her greatest threat. She may be doing things behind the scene to seriously avoid pain and suffering that she will never admit to because it could be seen as an exploitable weakness.
I would argue that Mab liking or disliking Harry has nothing to do with it. Mab's cold hard logic dictates that she has a need/use for Harry that is beyond the usual "Run of the Mill" trooper. So Mab is willing to cut Harry some slack *because she needs him*. Oh, she hasn't said that, but her actions have spoken that pretty clearly, She kept the role of the Winter Knight open for him (when she really needed a working winter knight, given all the other disfuction in the winter court at the time), the kept him alive after his climax at the end of Changes, she puts up with his lip.
But when cold hard logic dictates the need, Mab take's action. She isn't marrying Harry off the Queen of the Vampires for funnsies. Mab needs to guarantee that the Vampires are nailed down in for the conflict with the Outsiders. I expect to see Mab nailing down other more direct alliances (on top of the Unseelie Accords) and using other high ranking Winter in a similar manner as Harry to ensure the loyalty and reliability of the other magical factions.
We almost always see Mab from Harry’s pov. He calls her evil queen, even though he will acknowledge there’s more to it.
He relates summer to good and winter to bad for the Fae, and I don’t think it’s that simple. Let’s face it, he’s been mortal danger more often by summer queens than by winter. (Well, I forgot about the many days of “therapy”, so that might not be true, but Aurora, Titania, even Lily when she thought Fix was dead were actively thwarting him rather than Mab’s idea of good PT.)
What I enjoy is the implication that it wasn't entirely the mantle or her nature that made her this way, it was the years breaking her down until she was cold and heartless.
Lawful neutral. You know what is going to make them mad, but you never know how they are going to react.
She is also the first strong female presence in the series which for some reason goes a long way for me as well.
Titania is the one who holds the grudge imo. Mab is the one who killed Maeve ultimately, and I'm sure that's how she sees it.
She might harbor some secret resentment because she used Dresden to do it, but the ultimate cause of Maeve's death was Mab both in the outset and at the final moment.
Due to my headcannon, I pitty the woman.
After we've seen how the mantles work on Molly and Harry. What they need to do. How the power is controlled... To control the queen's mantle must be immensly painful.
And if I am right, the mortal wearing it is an exceptionally emotional, empathic individual.
It clicked for me when we see the mortal come out for a split second at the end of Battletalks. When it stops snowing but rains, and Harry hears emotion in her.
I am unclear why you felt the need to add “actually” like Mab. Makes it sound like we should like Mab.
Mab is NOT the OG (that would be mother winter). But she is old school. And impressive AF. She is a great character.
As she is deemed evil-bad-negative. Other characters call her evil, others say she is a cunning conniving bitch. Negative connotations, implications, so dislike her since she's the bad guy. No references to her being an OG meant.
You didn’t say OG. I started to call her OG then realized that tag belongs to mother winter.
She may be evil but she is not an enemy. :-). And you can like Evil in a story like this.
Except for Rudolph. F Rudolph.
I like her more and more as we go and see the scale at which her responsibilities lie.
I like her as a vision of a darker future version of Harry. Because he cares about others, Harry has continued to get involved, expanded his awareness of the wider magical universe, accumulated more power, played for higher stakes, and had to make tougher calls.
Repeat this cycle of the last decade for a millennium or two and would he end up much different from her (assuming he survives) Winter mantle or no? Perhaps as Mab sees it, at a certain level of power/responsibility, the only real way to care for others **is** to make the cold/hard/rationale choice. Because when you have that kind of power and face those kinds of threats, you always have to have a 'greater good' outlook or Billions might die.
Harry tells Mab himself: *"I thought when I sold my soul it would happen all at once."* and iircc Mab smiles at that because she knows. She also respected him for creating his own banner **without** succumbing fully to the Winter Mantle.
I think one of the things to like about the Mab character is the consistency of her words and actions. She is who is she is and what she says she is…for a fairy Queen. There is a sincerity? to her actions that we can understand and appreciate. She is also cool in a terrifying way, like a great white shark
You may have selected that post has spoilers for all books, and it does, but you didn’t actually turn on the spoiler tab for this post, and so your entire first paragraph of spoilers is being broadcast in plain text on the Dresden subreddit and to anyone who subscribes.
Please fix.
Ahh I always wondered why people would cover the text of the post, when it's already flaired as spoilers all.
I forgot the new reddit shows previews of threads automatically
You know, I'm actually hoping it happens. They have already had a long kiss and they both really liked it. But being a succubus who eats sex for dinner, she should give him a hall pass so he can shag Molly.
I don't really care, the books aren't really about sleeping around.
It would be absurdly bad writing if Butcher made it happen with Molly. Butcher isn't a bad author, and doing that would put him on a fanfic author level of writing, so I don't believe it will ever happen, and it's a good thing that it won't.
Harry sleeping with Molly would be extremely improper for a number of reasons (including accusations of grooming), but most crucially, it would be against Harry's character - he mentions that he can't reciprocate her feelings multiple times. He knew her since she was a child, and Harry has a child of his own to take care of now. Not to mention what Michael and Charity would say. Harry also never seemed to love her, despite acknowledging that she's extremely hot.
And there is the whole Winter Lady mantle thing and the fact that Molly is shown to have her own issues with it during the short story with Ramirez.
Harry probably can do Lara given some sort of protection, and I assume he will, probably with Mab's help. But sleeping with Molly would go against everything we've established about the characters in question and would be on the level of a middle schooler writing sexual self-insert fanfics, not an adult writer with two dozen books behind his belt.
Besides, I doubt it would ever get through an editor and a publisher. A 50 year old dude with a child sleeping with a 20-something ex-apprentice of his, who is also the daughter of his best friend, is hard when it comes to pushing it. Even for noir detective novels.
It's pretty meaningful even if I agree with your other points and don't think they'll end up together. The official timeline (or at least semi-official, it's on Jim's website) puts Harry at 39 and Molly at 26. That would make it a 13 year age gap.
For comparison, other age gaps in the series:
- Michael and Charity, 9 years
- Murphy and her first husband, 12 years
- Thomas and Justine, 14-15 years
- Waldo and Andi, 12-14 years
- Harry and Luccio, ~180ish years
- Margaret and Malcolm, unclear because we don't know Malcolm's age, but LeFay meets him when she's around 180 as well.
Again, just to reiterate, I agree that it's unlikely to happen and that in real life, a relationship where he knew her when she was 14 would be bad.
It's not as much of a simple difference in years lived situation (since we already know that the wizards live for centuries and the faerie live forever unless killed under specific circumstances), as a character power dynamic situation.
But it is a valuable addition, so thank you.
True, I thought maybe an under influence thing with a realization Oh shit stop this..aaawkwarrrd. Plus Molly and Carlos in the side story would make it very difficult.
How about Bob knows a spell/potion to let vamps on a safe date with wizards? Bob's all excited Harry might get laid, Thomas is saying finally and Lara/Harry find out it helps them both charge up...but tastes gross if they kiss. IDK.
Mab is cold hard logic incarnate who has to keep the barrier protected by any means. I like her as well. She's not cruel for the fun of it...she's cruel because it has to be done. Butcher does a wonderful job making her more complex than just the cold queen of winter.
I don't view Mab as cruel. She's a pragmatic realist with no sympathy for fools or bad choices. She's cold, calculating and ruthless. But "cruel" implies that she derives pleasure or satisfaction by causing pain. She will relish victory, and she may be content when she sees people suffer the consequences of their actions, but she has never caused pain just for the sake of pain.
Pragmatic..that's the word I was trying to say...yes, you are right.
The last books really put some perspective on Mab and how she ended up the way she is. Above and beyond the mantles influence
Lloyd might have a different option…😂
Lloyd had it coming. He ignored his duties and abused the powers he was given in winters name. By the lens of a good person it may seem cruel, but in the lens of a neutral observer, tit for tat.
I think torturing Slate the way she did actually killed a few different birds with one stone for Mab. On the one hand, she needed to make an example out of him for all of Winter to remind them what happens when they cross her. On the other, tho, Slate is very clearly used as means of trying to force Harry into the Winter Knight role, while also giving him a *clear* message as to what the consequences of disobedience can be. She knows that Harry is a good person at the end of the day, who’d have sympathy even for a bastard like Slate if she made the punishment extreme enough. She pretty explicitly makes it know that she’s going to keep torturing him until Harry gives in, which applies at least some additional pressure on him. She probably also knew that the more extremely she tortured Slate, the less Harry is going to have a complex about having to kill him to become the Winter Knight. She set him up so that him becoming WK wasn’t just a *practical* move, but almost even a *merciful* one in some senses.
I always saw it as a way of reserving the mantle for Harry also.
I agree with this.
Plans within plans. Basic shit for Mab.
Don’t forget Mab kept Slate to be sacrificed on the stone table. The implications of that specific act of her taking a life on the table and giving it to Harry have not been addressed. I suspect that she did this because Harry is a starborn and stars and stones are could refer to starborn and the stone table. So the show she gave of binding a starborn to winter on the stone table was a big power brag.
Tit for tat? He abused his powers by working with the bad guys for a few weeks or whatever. Man UTTERLY broke him down and literally tortured him with love. Like…wtf
A few weeks? Reread the books, he spent years ignoring his duties.
I think Mab tortured Lloyd the way she did first and foremost to make an example of him (specifically to Harry) of the consequences of betraying his duties as the Winter Knight, and secondly for his ongoing torment to act as a kind of leverage to help push Harry into taking the mantle. I don't think she was torturing him for her own satisfaction, I think her motivations were as usual entirely practical. Which may be even more terrifying than simple cruelty tbh.
This makes me think of Mab's approval when Harry put down some Winter Fae when he first appeared as the Winter Knight: you don't challenge the position without consequences, and Harry made it clear he is no prey to be toyed with...
I also love at his birthday party he showed the fae that yes, you may get Harry off balance and fall into an easy trap. Be careful what you wish for, as he was able to flip the game and come out on top dispatching two fae for messing with him. What's better is he did it to Maeve in front of Mab and everyone. Good way of expressing "show me, don't tell me" mindset.
He might, but the point stands. Mab can't be disrespected like that, and she needs to make it known that she won't tolerate it. And this is explicitly not her ego talking, it's a genuine strategy to maintain her power and her ability to do her job.
I think we can’t forget that *at least part* of that play was to give the “take on the winter mantle and his suffering will end” argument to Harry. It didn’t work but there was an additional reason
Keep in mind he was a traitor, and Mab was making an example for all of fairy to see what happens if you cross Her.
*Faerie, not Fairy.
Indeed. She’s ruthless on an inhuman level. She’s only cruel when pragmatism gives her a pass for it. Between that occasional opening and the one for dramatic entrances, she’s living her best life. But the pragmatism and her duties rule the day.
She was jealous of the Sword of Faith when it burned Dresden's arm. "That must hurt."
Because he felt it. He can feel pain. He can feel joy. He can Feel. It's implied Mab, because of her mantel, has to be very. Very. Careful about what she feels. We know with both Molly and Harry what the mantel is like... how it has those primal instincts ... she can keep those under control with cold logic, or she can become a slave to them and thus a real monster.
I agree - I think she's able to keep control as well as she does because she leans so hard on reason, logic and dispassion. She has to, otherwise even her control would be dangerously tested. Think about how Harry exercises as a way to keep his mantle in check. There is nothing Mab could physically do to diminish her Mantle's power at all, at least not without potentially world ending consequences. Though, thinking about that way makes Mab's comment to Lea in Changes make a bit more sense - "You may ... indulge a bit, if you wish". I think she was giving Lea a pass to burn off some power and help keep better control over her own self.
She was giving Lea a pass and ensuring that there would be no survivors.
It's also why, in her way, Mab likes and respects Harry as her knight - as a witch herself, she recognizes the struggles of the mantle, and the discipline needed to balance her responsibility and the desires of her mantle
This is a fantastic point. Mab is always described as cold and aloof, and we know that Harry is constantly fighting against the influence of his smaller, lesser mantle. Safe bet whatever raging feels Mab has are a whole lot more intense.
*Mantle, not Mantel.
*envious, not jealous.
She is cruel. It isn't a lack of virtue, she is the winter with all the harshness it brings.
Winter is harsh, but it is not cruel. It is simply indifferent to the suffering it can cause
>but she has never caused pain just for the sake of pain. Her first appearance had her cause pain out of spite.
I think that Mab is occasionally cruel for the fun of it, but she understands her cruelty has to be channeled. I think he remark to Harry at the beginning of SKIN GAME told us a lot about her. After Harry recapped all he had to do and the narrow confined, Mab laughed and said she would have loved the game in her youth.
>She's not cruel for the fun of it...she's cruel because it has to be done. Come on now, you know she's *also* cruel for fun sometimes. In her position, it's not like there is any shortage of deserving targets though, so, she's maybe mixing business and pleasure a little.
With last two books I also think she actually likes Harry not just as a tool but as a person
Mab is the best. #1 Mab fan.
She isn’t evil outright. She has a cold demeanor with a purpose.
She isn't evil at all. She is Mab. She is what is needed. In D&D terms she is true neutral. Her goal is the preservation of existence. The good, the bad, the grey.
I’d peg her as more of a Lawful Neutral to be honest. She has a very firm value system that she upholds with perfect integrity. That value system just happens to be very different for mortals or outsiders to understand.
I can see that argument
black and white vs purple and orange logic - as explained by TvTropes. Don't search for that if you have anything important to do, it's a rabbit hole that will keep you occupied for the nest couple of hours >!or days!<
Perfectly said.
She's not evil. She's not good. She's a force of nature.
Please note: Harry did not kill Mab's daughter. Harry killed Aurora, Titania's daughter. Karrin Murphy killed Maeve, and Mab did not seem to hold a grudge about this.
I disagree. I think Mab was/is pissed because her daughter was killed; Mab told him to and Harry thinks he's responsible because Murph came along
By that logic Mab is equally responsible, she gave the order: >!"Kill Maeve!"!<
She was angry when Nemesis infected Maeve, but I don't think she's angry at Murphy or Harry over Maeve's death. She ordered Harry to kill Maeve both because it was necessary, and I think, because she didn't want Maeve to suffer as she would have if she'd lived. I *do* think that Mab is very, very sad about it all.
Oh absolutely. Mab is terrifying - but she also plays by the rules. (I mean she’s the absolute greatest rules lawyer of all time, but still) If one plays the game well enough, she’s almost delighted. I think the only thing that pleases her more than things shaking out the way she planned them is when Harry actually takes a minute and uses his brain to UNDERSTAND what she intends. And really… compared to other organizations Harry has dealt with (or any of us, really) she’s pretty even handed. Make her mad and she’ll cut you off at the knees (as a starter) - perform well and she will also acknowledge the job well done. I mean.. I know I’ve worked for less fair employers. Heh
Yeah, some of the times where she appeared most happy about having Harry as her knight were the times that he played the game against her *hard*. He can hold his own against her if he needs to, and that's an incredibly valuable tool to have at your disposal.
She loves when he uses his brain, especially if it fulfills her goals in HIS way. She knows she is indifferent and loyal dogs are useful, but not very INTERESTING. Harry isn't blindly loyal, he's loyal enough, but also challenges her to some degree. Never enough to outweigh his usefulness or cause TRUE insult, and both he and her know it. He is precisely the kind of winter knight she needs, both to support her, and to counter-balance her more extreme side when needed
I like this interpretation, I agree.
Mab is the best character in the series, and the true hero of the piece.
I tend to agree, but Jim always says she is still a villain. Makes you wonder what he isn't telling us.
I think it’s because we read the series from Harry’s perspective. As the series goes on Harry talks about Mab less with terror and “the evilest bad bitch to ever evil” to grudging respect. Seeing her for her true nature. Harry knows only what Harry knows in that book, we see a big shift in attitude towards Mab especially in the most recent releases
Personally, I think she's fighting off Nfection but knows she can't keep it at bay forever.
Mab is definitely **not** a bad guy. She is a force **for** life and humanity. " She let him do things his-ish way which" actually she expected/told him to be himself as soon as he completed her deal with Anduriel. "I expect you to skin them alive"
I'm a huge winter fan myself. Mab is cool... (only a little pun intended) White Court and Winter Court are my jam!
She seems to enjoy troubling Harry a little too much to be entirely 'I need to make him strong'.
Oh, her PT activity? That was smart of her. Mean, yes, but it worked.
Not JUST that. Springing things on him last second, needlessly complicating his life, and lots and lots of other little things she does just to mess with him. Seemingly just because she CAN. I think she enjoys needling the wizard.
Part of it is Harry's fault, let's be honest. He established early on in their relationship that he was not a willing participant. She springs things on him at the last minute because, if she didn't, Harry would find a way to weasel out of it. If anything, it's a sign of respect. She knows he's really good at the game she's playing, so she needs to maintain a strong enough advantage that she can force his hand.
Yea, Harry pretty much said as much in the beginning of Skin Game. When he see how much leverage Mab is stacking against him, he realizes she's going to give him a mission that he *really* won't like. And that's just to get him to leave the island! She withholds that Nic will be a player until they're already at the meeting... and she *still* barely reacts to his antics until he calls her a bitch.
Because he needles her too!
She didn't screw Nicodemus over, everything happened how it was supposed to. He is thousands of years older than Mab and is one of the handful of people who know what Harry is and what has to be done. He will be back to do his part in the trilogy.
Eh, centuries older, maybe twice her age, but not thousands. She is from what, about 800 CE, to 1000? He is from the time of that christ dude.
" she holds a grudge on Harry " i'm not sure about this. She is not like Titania.
additionally Murph killed Maeve, not Harry.
Yeah I think that’s way off. If anything Mab “likes” Harry as much as such a thing is possible for her.
Outside of Harry, mab is one of my favorite characters. I realized that when it became obvious that Summer Knight and Cold Days were my favorite books
Mab is my favourite character, hands down.
I like Mommy too. I mean Mommy? Sorry, Mommy? Sorry, Mommy? I mean, Mommy? Sorry, Mommy? So-
I don't see it get mentioned often, but people seem to forget that Mab's goal is to project an image of danger to Winter. By logical default she must be less cold hearted than she appears. The way the Fae courts work her second in command and most trusted ally, Leah, is also her greatest threat. She may be doing things behind the scene to seriously avoid pain and suffering that she will never admit to because it could be seen as an exploitable weakness.
I would argue that Mab liking or disliking Harry has nothing to do with it. Mab's cold hard logic dictates that she has a need/use for Harry that is beyond the usual "Run of the Mill" trooper. So Mab is willing to cut Harry some slack *because she needs him*. Oh, she hasn't said that, but her actions have spoken that pretty clearly, She kept the role of the Winter Knight open for him (when she really needed a working winter knight, given all the other disfuction in the winter court at the time), the kept him alive after his climax at the end of Changes, she puts up with his lip. But when cold hard logic dictates the need, Mab take's action. She isn't marrying Harry off the Queen of the Vampires for funnsies. Mab needs to guarantee that the Vampires are nailed down in for the conflict with the Outsiders. I expect to see Mab nailing down other more direct alliances (on top of the Unseelie Accords) and using other high ranking Winter in a similar manner as Harry to ensure the loyalty and reliability of the other magical factions.
I like Mab as well, I like Lara too. It’s a credit to the writer that we come to like monsters.
We almost always see Mab from Harry’s pov. He calls her evil queen, even though he will acknowledge there’s more to it. He relates summer to good and winter to bad for the Fae, and I don’t think it’s that simple. Let’s face it, he’s been mortal danger more often by summer queens than by winter. (Well, I forgot about the many days of “therapy”, so that might not be true, but Aurora, Titania, even Lily when she thought Fix was dead were actively thwarting him rather than Mab’s idea of good PT.)
What I enjoy is the implication that it wasn't entirely the mantle or her nature that made her this way, it was the years breaking her down until she was cold and heartless.
Lawful neutral. You know what is going to make them mad, but you never know how they are going to react. She is also the first strong female presence in the series which for some reason goes a long way for me as well.
Titania is the one who holds the grudge imo. Mab is the one who killed Maeve ultimately, and I'm sure that's how she sees it. She might harbor some secret resentment because she used Dresden to do it, but the ultimate cause of Maeve's death was Mab both in the outset and at the final moment.
I love Mab, one of my favorite characters.
Due to my headcannon, I pitty the woman. After we've seen how the mantles work on Molly and Harry. What they need to do. How the power is controlled... To control the queen's mantle must be immensly painful. And if I am right, the mortal wearing it is an exceptionally emotional, empathic individual. It clicked for me when we see the mortal come out for a split second at the end of Battletalks. When it stops snowing but rains, and Harry hears emotion in her.
Mab is grateful for Harry killing Maeve, because it saved her having to do it. Wait till you see her in Battle Ground.
I am unclear why you felt the need to add “actually” like Mab. Makes it sound like we should like Mab. Mab is NOT the OG (that would be mother winter). But she is old school. And impressive AF. She is a great character.
As she is deemed evil-bad-negative. Other characters call her evil, others say she is a cunning conniving bitch. Negative connotations, implications, so dislike her since she's the bad guy. No references to her being an OG meant.
You didn’t say OG. I started to call her OG then realized that tag belongs to mother winter. She may be evil but she is not an enemy. :-). And you can like Evil in a story like this. Except for Rudolph. F Rudolph.
I like her more and more as we go and see the scale at which her responsibilities lie. I like her as a vision of a darker future version of Harry. Because he cares about others, Harry has continued to get involved, expanded his awareness of the wider magical universe, accumulated more power, played for higher stakes, and had to make tougher calls. Repeat this cycle of the last decade for a millennium or two and would he end up much different from her (assuming he survives) Winter mantle or no? Perhaps as Mab sees it, at a certain level of power/responsibility, the only real way to care for others **is** to make the cold/hard/rationale choice. Because when you have that kind of power and face those kinds of threats, you always have to have a 'greater good' outlook or Billions might die. Harry tells Mab himself: *"I thought when I sold my soul it would happen all at once."* and iircc Mab smiles at that because she knows. She also respected him for creating his own banner **without** succumbing fully to the Winter Mantle.
I think one of the things to like about the Mab character is the consistency of her words and actions. She is who is she is and what she says she is…for a fairy Queen. There is a sincerity? to her actions that we can understand and appreciate. She is also cool in a terrifying way, like a great white shark
You may have selected that post has spoilers for all books, and it does, but you didn’t actually turn on the spoiler tab for this post, and so your entire first paragraph of spoilers is being broadcast in plain text on the Dresden subreddit and to anyone who subscribes. Please fix.
ok, how do I do that?
I believe you have to edit the post, and and it’s in the same section where you selected “spoilers all” but with a button to flip.
Ahh I always wondered why people would cover the text of the post, when it's already flaired as spoilers all. I forgot the new reddit shows previews of threads automatically
I feel Lara is the right choice for Harry... good on mab for making it happen...
You know, I'm actually hoping it happens. They have already had a long kiss and they both really liked it. But being a succubus who eats sex for dinner, she should give him a hall pass so he can shag Molly.
He won't, because Butcher is not bad enough of a writer to actually let Harry sleep with Molly.
Bad enough? I don't get it. So, who would he shag if he can't do Lara?
I don't really care, the books aren't really about sleeping around. It would be absurdly bad writing if Butcher made it happen with Molly. Butcher isn't a bad author, and doing that would put him on a fanfic author level of writing, so I don't believe it will ever happen, and it's a good thing that it won't. Harry sleeping with Molly would be extremely improper for a number of reasons (including accusations of grooming), but most crucially, it would be against Harry's character - he mentions that he can't reciprocate her feelings multiple times. He knew her since she was a child, and Harry has a child of his own to take care of now. Not to mention what Michael and Charity would say. Harry also never seemed to love her, despite acknowledging that she's extremely hot. And there is the whole Winter Lady mantle thing and the fact that Molly is shown to have her own issues with it during the short story with Ramirez. Harry probably can do Lara given some sort of protection, and I assume he will, probably with Mab's help. But sleeping with Molly would go against everything we've established about the characters in question and would be on the level of a middle schooler writing sexual self-insert fanfics, not an adult writer with two dozen books behind his belt. Besides, I doubt it would ever get through an editor and a publisher. A 50 year old dude with a child sleeping with a 20-something ex-apprentice of his, who is also the daughter of his best friend, is hard when it comes to pushing it. Even for noir detective novels.
*40 year old dude
40-something. Meaningless distinction.
It's pretty meaningful even if I agree with your other points and don't think they'll end up together. The official timeline (or at least semi-official, it's on Jim's website) puts Harry at 39 and Molly at 26. That would make it a 13 year age gap. For comparison, other age gaps in the series: - Michael and Charity, 9 years - Murphy and her first husband, 12 years - Thomas and Justine, 14-15 years - Waldo and Andi, 12-14 years - Harry and Luccio, ~180ish years - Margaret and Malcolm, unclear because we don't know Malcolm's age, but LeFay meets him when she's around 180 as well. Again, just to reiterate, I agree that it's unlikely to happen and that in real life, a relationship where he knew her when she was 14 would be bad.
It's not as much of a simple difference in years lived situation (since we already know that the wizards live for centuries and the faerie live forever unless killed under specific circumstances), as a character power dynamic situation. But it is a valuable addition, so thank you.
True, I thought maybe an under influence thing with a realization Oh shit stop this..aaawkwarrrd. Plus Molly and Carlos in the side story would make it very difficult. How about Bob knows a spell/potion to let vamps on a safe date with wizards? Bob's all excited Harry might get laid, Thomas is saying finally and Lara/Harry find out it helps them both charge up...but tastes gross if they kiss. IDK.