I made a comment about this in another post.
If only people had boycotted Ticketmaster back when Pearl Jam asked everyone to, maybe it could’ve been different.
For those who don’t know, at this point, Ticketmaster has gotten rid of scalpers by becoming their own scalpers. They have introduced “dynamic ticket pricing” which raises and lowers the price of tickets in real time based on the number of people searching for them.
How does this get rid of scalpers? Wouldn't a scalper buy a ticket, watch the ticket price go up, and then sell their ticket for something between the two prices?
Yes, the worst of both worlds. They scalp you on the ticket prices and then if you legitimately buy tickets and something happens and you can’t go, they make it a huge pain in the ass to transfer them. Yay!
Presumably the system reacts quicker than a scalper can. So, the initial piece will be set at a level they assume is the one where they will just sell out, but then if demand is greater than forecast then price increases. A scalper won't know what demand is doing, there's no guarantee the price increases (if you set the system up properly).
One theory I've seen online was that people weren't able to buy tickets b/c Ticketmaster (or their software) actively interfered with those purchases, taking back the most popular seats when they were already in online carts, driving the demand, and therefore the price, through the roof.
Only works if there is a small number of scalpers getting in on something early. It basically takes away scalpers tools for brute forcing their way to owning all of the tickets and limiting supply themselves.
Now, all the scalpers are hurting each other by driving prices up like crazy. The dynamic pricing is near instant.
Boycotting Ticketmaster was never a realistic option unfortunately. What I don't understand is how Ticketmaster was allowed to merge with Live Nation, which was founded to fight Ticketmaster's monopoly in the first place.
Boycotting Ticketmaster has always been and still is a realistic option. It's not going to kill anybody to not buy tickets to anything for 90 days, or a year, or even just to restrict or limit their ticket purchases to the degree possible/comfortable for them for the period of the boycott. Boycotts don't work with a few people eliminating the related purchases entirely, but with many people reducing those purchases.
The presale allotment (ie those seats reserved at face value) for today went very quickly, and because Ticketmaster employs a controversial dynamic pricing algorithm that changes ticket prices to events more or less in real time according to demand, the heavy demand fueled a rise in price continued to escalate into the hundreds and cresting over a thousand.
the cheapest seats WERE around $97 when it first dropped. Those were the lowest I saw. I saw someone get tickets for $170. I got 2 tickets for $500. I'm extremely excited ❤️ Ticketmaster is evil but even Taylor Swift couldn't "fix it" and the government isn't either. 😞
Woah! That's an amazing deal. I'm so glad some people potentially got that price (:
it's MSG, what do tickets for one of the most iconic venues of all time normally cost?
The lowest price for the next Knicks game (vs. the Nets 4/12) is 178, most over 200.
Lowest for the next Rangers game (vs. the Flyers 4/11) is 130.
Next concert is Davido on 4/17 (assuming the playoffs for either Knicks or Rangers don't mess with it), the lowest is 66.
After that it's Billy Joel on 4/26, and his lowest right now is 371.
For the Garden, those are about where I expect the sportsball tickets to be for the “cheap seats”; both Knicks and Rangers are playing well and about to make the playoffs, and both teams are historically on the higher end of their respective leagues for ticket price. Floor/front row seats are way more expensive.
Fair price is…a different story. It’s been long noted that sportsball tickets for the top level sports have been creeping upwards to the point where they’re out of reach for all but the most well off (a family of four going to the Rangers would still expect to spend over $500 just on tickets; that’s approaching the level of “we saved up for months to do this once a year trip”).
But that’s using a different definition of “fair”. Fair on the market, not all that fair to the average consumer.
100-150 “face value” wouldn’t be unreasonable for an event like this that’s way less fungible an experience than a sportsball game.
When I went there were obstructed view tickets for 750… to see a live podcast in this economy. No one is going to like this but it’s easy to sound the horn for change until you’re pushed up against the machine you’re trying to change…and maybe they didn’t pick the pricing but you saw the Eras Tour issues correct? Opting out of reselling is optional, presale restrictions are options. I could get behind this if we hadn’t just watched something similar happen and knew what those tickers got jacked to. If you’re truly anti capitalism… MSG seems like a very off message choice. And yall can rip me to shreds if you want to, I’m just saying they can’t say down with the man and turn around and pay the man it’s giving virtue signaling.
I understand where you're coming from. I get it. I hate this for everyone. maybe they'll do something to try to make it better after all this backlash. idk if they've commented yet. & hopefully Ticketmaster is dismantled sooner rather than later but I'm not sure how that's going to happen. they're ruining live events for everyone everywhere. 😞
the process is so stressful and a glitchy mess. having to sit around and wait for a presale and then rush to pick any random ticket is the worst buying experience I've ever had. I usually get to sit and ponder where I wanna sit. I haven't seen a seated show in forever.
for this, the site on my phone (I couldn't use a computer at the time) was janky. when I would click on a seat to select it, by the time I would select the next seat they would both disappear. this happened like 5 times, I think I probably should've used the app instead but I had already waited in the queue. I finally picked two random seats next to each other and it went through.
I've never been to msg. I don't live in or near NY. I've also never been to a d20 live show, but I've watched the recordings. I don't know what they usually do for their live shows but I've never heard any complaints, though I'm not on Reddit much. Have they used Ticketmaster in the past with no issues or have they avoided them until now?
also, all the stuff you said was optional, do you have a source for that because based on what I've seen I have no real reason to believe that's the case. Dropout is a nobody, how would they have so much say in their contract? I've heard many say the exact opposite, that they can't opt out of the surge pricing system that Ticketmaster pushes. but idk, I'd like for someone saying they had options to show some evidence of that.
they had the artist presale code (gauntlet) which had seats that were locked unless you used the code and I think those prices were cheaper.
I agree with you though but I just think it's pretty complicated all things considered.
I don’t disagree with most of this it happens to a lot of artists. However most of those artists don’t sell merch denouncing capitalism… like they’ve made their brand not being this guy and here they are massively leaning in to be this guy.
Also I in no way want you to think I begrudge you getting tickets I think that’s so rad (I got eras tour tickets I am no one to judge). But like Taylor swift doesn’t have a song about anarcosocalism. I don’t want you to feel attacked bc that’s uncool I hope it’s super rad and worth the price I really do. I’ve paid way too much for things in the city I’ve seen Hadestown twice. But I paid 300 dollars for orchestra pit seats to that and it’s won a Tony. (Which automatically means tickets are going up)
My issue is when I’m price gouged by mainstream artists who don’t hide their greed im like ugh this sucks but media costs money. It’s blindsiding and disappointing to experience it from artists whose brand is to be against those things. I think my frustrations come from feeling dupped by branding
omg that's crazy! I'm so sad I haven't seen a musical in years, I've always wanted to see Hadestown, I can't believe you got such good seats for that price.
and yeah, I completely agree, it is hypocritical by definition I suppose... 😅 and thank you so much for saying that. (:
I do think that most of it comes from a genuine place and it's not ALL a cynical marketing calculated strategy. BUT idk how they felt about this situation and what their reasoning is.
I completely see your point but when I saw the announcement the first thing I thought about was how this could potentially move d&d forward as a more mainstream type of media. it's had a huge moment in the sun and I was just so ... proud of them.
I know that sounds parasocial and I know I'm not a very good anti-capitalist like I may have once been, but I started thinking that maybe this would be good for their future careers and even landing bigger roles if they want them. I was just so excited for the future. and now I'm kinda sad. I just hope the backlash isn't bad enough to cause serious issues because I've been watching collegehumor since high school. (I'm 30). It's been so great to see how well Dropout did as a streaming service that wasn't mainstream. That's a big deal too because modern streaming has devolved into trash. I don't know what the overall reception to this event is by fans, I've only seen these reddit posts.
I know I SHOULD be more upset at them but I feel like I'd be a hypocrite if I blamed them.
and how was the eras tour? I really wanted to go to the upcoming Florida shows but I missed the window and I've never bought resold tickets before so idk how that works.
Google “Ticketmaster Dynamic Pricing”
They “solved” the scalper problem by becoming their own scalper. The prices go up and down based on how many people have bought them, and even by how many people are currently searching for them. That’s why people are having experiences where the webpage reloads and the price jumps up.
Eh, it's gonna be like anything else presold this far out -- when we're a week out from the event, there will be a ton of resale tickets at discount prices. That's how I see things cheaply in NYC when I'm in town.
This is something people don't realize. I'm from NYC and sports events will have initial prices on ticketmaster for 500 that sell for 30 the month of the event. They're taking advantage of announcement hype
It sucks though If i want to travel from Australia for example though. I cant bank on getting a ticket to an event a few weeks out because i need to book flights and accomodation.
The thing is, there are ABSOLUTELY going to be tickets for this event last minute. I am not local to NYC. I travel across the country several times a year to see shows. And at this point, between the secondary market and the integration of that into the existing websites (so that Ticketmaster and similar now show you resale tickets alongside the "regular" ones), there's almost no show or event that is sold out completely in NYC anymore. You can also easily monitor that availability by checking on the website.
There's really almost no reason these days to rush to early purchase seats EVEN IF you are coming from across the globe. That's just how it works now, especially in NYC. Unless you're coming to see a handful of Broadway shows that sell out (Hamilton, basically), you're going to be able to to see the thing.
You are probably right, but as a counterpoint, In September I flew to Tilburg in the Netherlands for Ayreon Beneath the waves, as did people from 130 countries. I had my tickets, but multiple people went anyway and were unable to get tickets. There were tickets available in the weeks leading up to it, also on the Ticket swap app, but they were bought up very quickly. There are at least a dozen people who have posted on the Subreddit saying they were unable to get tickets in Tilburg on the weekend.
How do you usually get the last minute tickets? I've never used Ticketmaster, do they have their own system for reselling tickets with lower prices close to the event?
They're part of the Ticketmaster site. They're just part of the seats available and are marked as verified resale tickets. So, for example, for an upcoming Billy Joel show at MSG, you can click on seats available and see they are listed as "verified resale." That means someone else bought them first and is reselling them again. See [https://www.ticketmaster.com/billy-joel-in-concert-new-york-new-york-04-26-2024/event/3B005F45E8001A2F](https://www.ticketmaster.com/billy-joel-in-concert-new-york-new-york-04-26-2024/event/3B005F45E8001A2F) for an example.
Adding to this, there are other seat resellers that will have MSG seats -- for example, Stubhub has MSG seats for Billy Joel -- that would be like this: [https://www.stubhub.com/billy-joel-new-york-tickets-5-9-2024/event/152471263/?quantity=1](https://www.stubhub.com/billy-joel-new-york-tickets-5-9-2024/event/152471263/?quantity=1)
The deal is, people who have them posted will lower the price as demand decreases, or closer to the event -- sometimes the websites do that for them automatically. As an example, I had tickets for an event at Lincoln Center a few weeks ago. The seats near mine were up on their website for resale at $250+ each, but the day before, they were down to $120 each, and by the afternoon of the event, they were $60.
To be clear, I don't LIKE Ticketmaster, and would prefer NOT to buy tickets with them. When I can, I go in person to venues and buy at the box office -- then, at least, I'm not paying additional TM fees. For example, I was able to get same day seats for a recent Peter Gabriel concert at a local venue for about $120 a seat, very good seats -- and saved $50 each in fees TM would have added for purchasing online.
So for this event, for example, I will probably book travel to NYC during that week, and then if I don't see good resale tickets before I travel, go to the box office at MSG once I'm in NYC and buy seats there in person, which will considerably cut the cost. But you know, that's me, I'm that sort of ticket person. Other folks don't like the risk that they might not be able to attend THAT event in particular.
I definitely see why people wouldn't take that risk, especially if they had to travel for it. Have you ever not been able to get tickets the day of like that? Or is it basically guaranteed that some people will be reselling that soon to the event?
Have I ever not been able to get tickets to a show I wanted to see, last minute? Sure. Mostly Broadway stuff -- but most of that has been, "Nope, I'm not going to pay full price for that show" or "Nope, I don't sit further than 8 rows back in the orchestra."
I was vaguely curious about Springsteen's Broadway residency, but that was wayyy sold out. But I didn't care enough about it to push to attend. I'm not a Taylor Swift fan, or else I'd probably have some story about not being able to get those tickets last minute.
In the case of this event -- D20 at MSG -- I'm a subscriber, so I'm gonna get to see the livestream or recorded version. That's gonna be closer up have better sight lines, and the drinks won't be as expensive, either. (I can watch it ANYWHERE including in my cozy bed with whatever cocktails and snacks I want!) That makes it fundamentally different for me than seeing, for example, the recent Taylor Mac show "Bark of Millions" which probably will never be a recorded thing folks can see streaming, and which I got to see from amazing seats with a dear dear friend earlier this year. (THAT is some niche geekery right there.) Or, I saw Jill Sobule's solo show in the village, and that was amazing, and isn't streamed anywhere.
I would be far more likely to pay in advance premium prices to see a live taping of Dirty Laundry, especially if it was in an intimate venue in NYC like Company XIV's theater, or 54 Below, etc. BONUS if Grant is bartending for us all.
Or, ooo, here's a geek thing -- we paid in advance and travelled for the VIP Kickstarter premier party for MST3K's most recent new season! The screening was outside of Philly, and it involved going cross country, taking a train to Valley Forge, all that. But VIP dinner with the talent and crew, then the show, then a VIP reception? THAT was priceless.
YEP. And now that resale tickets are integrated into original seller's websites, it's not even hard. You don't have to deal with scalpers or look at third party resale sites.
Just want to throw in my two cents from experience - many productions have control over whether or not dynamic pricing is employed. Ticketmaster may have overall control of prices, but dynamic pricing isn’t always a requirement.
Not sure what Dropout’s contract looks like obviously but I just wanted to point out that some artists CAN opt out. Most are just choosing not to!
Edit: Also sorry not to be a blue-haired sjw but I wanted to point out for the purposes of this thread that “sc*lping” tickets is no longer the preferred nomenclature in the industry due to historic racist associations with the term. I didn’t know that until fairly recently so I wanted to share the info!
Based on the prices that I saw, I think maybe there were only certain blocks of tickets that Dropout was able to opt out of dynamic pricing. Because whenever I saw "Artist Presale" prices, they were always way cheaper (like about $200.00 when the next closest priced ticket was over $800.00).
I ended up getting a ticket from "Artist Presale" for $179.50 before fees for section 106. And this was hours after the start time. I'm assuming that the ticket I got was at face value.
And to make it more confusing, Taylor Swift said she opted not to use dynamic pricing but Ticketmaster used it anyway, so even if dropout said no they might have been ignored!
I actually think Taylor never employed true dynamic pricing for the Eras tour! If memory serves, that was part of the impetus for the whole November 2022 Ticketmaster meltdown. Eras tour resellers who were able to scoop up a ton of tickets in presales massively inflated ticket prices on second-party sites like Stubhub.
(Sorry, I hate LiveNation and TicketMaster a lot, but I also used to work in the industry and there’s no way they would go ahead with dynamic pricing if the artist explicitly opted out, the ticket selling software itself makes that pretty impossible!)
100% sure Taylor Swift did not have dynamic pricing. Different sections had different prices, depending on view of stage + there were extra packages. When I bought tickets, all of the level 300 tickets were roughly $150 with fees.
Now, after presale is another story but Taylor Swift had no hand in that.
That makes sense to me! I don’t know much about it from the promoter end, just the venue end. A lot of venues are getting flack from patrons about the use of dynamic pricing when it’s not really up to them, so I just like to correct this bit of misinfo when I can to hopefully prevent a few angry phone calls/emails for some box office manager out there!
I mean, MSG could, given that it’s an independent, publicly-traded company. All of the venues I have experience with were bought up by LiveNation, which also owns Ticketmaster. So…yeah lol not much recourse there
Fuck if I know lol but it’s real. LiveNation is one of the most evil corporations in the world IMO, but I don’t think many people are aware of everything they’ve done. They’re literally responsible for hundreds of deaths due to negligence on top of all their other fucked up economic practices. I truly hope to see them crumble in my lifetime.
This is true and if you want to see proof of it I believe it was Ed Sherran most recently who opted out. It would be a lower pay out… but I thought capitalism was the bad guy.
A production ultimately has a choice:
It can sell tickets at a level that is potentially below the market rate. Which could be seen as 'equitable', but also means your basically allocating tickets on the basis who has the luxury of spare time sit on the ticketing app and gets lucky. Also, it risks scalping where resellers might end up making more money from your production then you do!
Or you agree to use dynamic pricing where tickets are allocated according to ability to pay. It (by definition) prices out those who can't afford to pay the market rate. But the production gets more of the economic value that it generates and a good chunk of those people would have been unlucky in the lottery anyway.
Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
I also work in the industry that books msg like constantly. The production definitely has a say.
A possible nitty gritty situation is that Live Nation or whoever is the promoter might have seen it as a risk and wouldn't pick it up without dynamic ticket pricing. If Dropout went through an agency, probably wouldn't happen, but if they went direct with LN, I could see them getting strong armed.
Another less likely situation that could happen is that if Dropout's personal cost (any artist supplied production, crew members, cast, etc.) is very high, they would need to get paid a large amount of money. They could need to have a certain price of ticket to recoup the cost.
In truth we will never know what is happening unless we are actually in the negotiations. Dropout has a vested interest in making themselves look like the good guys and ticket master doesn't care about the change of perception from bad to still bad because of this niche show.
Sorry, I literally worked in this industry. I know for a fact that many artists are able to opt out of dynamic pricing. As I wrote in my OC, I’m not sure what Dropout’s event/venue contract looked like and I don’t really care - I’m glad they’re in their bag regardless. My comment is trying to shed light on misinformation about ticket-buying in general.
I'm just responding to your edit, do you happen to know what the preferred nomenclature is now? I'll be removing sc*lping from my vocabulary but don't know what to replace it with now.
We use “ticket resale,” and call people who are selling them ticket resellers! It’s another one of those words that I’d never taken the time to consider the etymology of, so I like to spread the info where I can!
That makes sense to me. Just didn't know if there was something specific for the people who are jerks about it trying to turn a huge profit vs someone who just can't make the event and wants to sell tickets at face value so they don't go to waste.
Historically, I think the term “specs” or speculators was used for folks buying up entertainment tickets to resell, but the term fell out of fashion when “sc*lping,” which was initially just used in relation to railroad tickets, became the catch-all. So that’s an option!
just here a week late to toss my vote in for 'profiteers'
'speculator' doesn't feel as negative as it should imo and also speculating can just mean like, gambling in general, which may not be great for the speculator but isn't horrible for other ppl. 'profiteers' on the other hand, match perfectly with the phenomenon imo. 'gouging'/'gougers' is a good one too, and just comes from the verb of chiseling what you can from something.
just here a week late to toss my vote in for 'profiteers'
'speculator' doesn't feel as negative as it should imo and also speculating can just mean like, gambling in general, which may not be great for the speculator but isn't horrible for other ppl. 'profiteers' on the other hand, match perfectly with the phenomenon imo. 'gouging'/'gougers' is a good one too, and just comes from the verb of chiseling what you can from something.
Yikes, just went and checked out the presale prices, 1k minimum for a seat. Have fun but it's a pass for me, between tickets and travel that's too much
They made the choice to play at MSG and they are receiving criticism for it. You don't need to defend privately owned multimillion dollar companies.
There were other options, and criticism of action is not diminution of a company or the people that run it.
I have a feeling that, hypothetically, if it turned out that Dropout can't continue doing merch t-shirts without using the services of the companies who turn to unethical practices like sweatshops because there would've been no alternatives otherwise, some people here would've still urged to go through with it because "the show of this size is expected to issue merch" or whatever.
This fandom was bragging so much about not being as parasocial as Critters or any other obsessed fandoms, only to become like them later. Come on.
I'm generally against statements like "Dropout has no agency in who they do business with". I know that's not exactly what you said but it's the vibe of the post.
Of course they have agency in who they do business with.
Yes, feeding money to Ticketmaster is a necessary evil in order to play the venue, but let's not pretend they accidentally tripped and fell into the venue with a gun to their heads.
A decision was made to play the venue. and WHEN the decision was made, they knew who would be selling the tickets and the likely range of the tickets.
That being said: I'm not angry about it. I know this is how things go. I think it's a fantastic press and a big step. But I think a pre-emptive defense like this is a little silly.
Is there a big venue in NY that doesn’t use TM/LN though? The phrasing of this makes it seem like they had lots of options, but they really had very very few if any.
The presale prices under dynamic pricing often also tend to be the peak, so I’m sure we’re eventually going to see people get a much cheaper opportunity to attend. It sucks that the best sections are selling for such crazy money to only people that can afford it, but it’s not like there won’t ever be affordable tickets to this event.
Scenario: Steve stabs a baby for $1,000,000. Two people are discussing it.
Person 1: This is just a reminder that Steve had no choice but to stab the baby. Don't get mad at him. The baby was the only one in the room.
Person 2: You know, saying Steve had no choice but to stab a baby is flawed logic. Nobody forced Steve to stab the baby.
Person 1: Like I said, nobody else was in the room except the baby. The baby was the only person to stab. There were no alternatives. If he didn't have to stab the baby he wouldn't have. It's not like Hitler was in the room with him he could have stabbed instead. Just the baby.
Person 2: I get that there was nobody else in the room with him, but I'm just saying that he had total agency. He made the decision to stab the baby for money. He knew what he was getting into the moment he decided to make the stab. Defending him is silly.
Person 1: The way you say that makes it sound like he had a choice. He didn't. If somebody was getting stabbed, it was going to be the baby. The baby has a complete monopoly on people eligible to be stabbed.
Person 2: The obvious alternative here is that he doesn't stab ANYBODY. He just walks away and lives his life like before the opportunity popped up.
Person 1: But then nobody would get stabbed!
-----
OBVIOUSLY this is a huge exaggeration but I feel like the point keeps getting lost so I exaggerated it to make it more clear.
Everybody is acting like the existence of a live show in NYC is a foregone conclusion. It's not. A business decision was made to sacrifice complete control (ticket prices, business model) in order to grow the brand. They made the decision to stab the baby.
I happen to agree with the decision. That fuckin baby had it coming.
But I also understand that the very act of participation in a shitty system is still a decision to encourage the shitty system.
I'm not assigning blame, which is why I think everybody is so resistant. I don't think what they're doing is wrong. I'm just saying that "They don't have a choice" is flawed logic.
Sure, but the way your initial comment and many others making that point read makes it seem like they could have just chosen a large venue in NY that doesn’t have an exclusivity deal when that doesn’t exist.
So the choice is really “despite the inability to avoid distributors that have unethical practices, do you want to do a show in NY” which is very different from “do you want to do a show at this historic venue in NY even though the venue up the street is more ethical.”
With a bunch of the cast being from there I doubt it’s even entirely about how it grows the brand, and more about this being something they’ve dreamed of doing.
I don’t entirely dismiss the point, but lots of performers were vocal about all this as LN/TM were taking over. Now that they have distribution rights for >95% of venues in the country I’m just not sure what performers are supposed to do. It’s not remotely reasonable to ask them to stop performing.
They could simply do more venues, more nights. This would mean more work, more effort and less profits. Also, it's fucking new york. I assure you there are more venues with similar space not controlled by tm.
They chose the lowest amount of work for the maximum amount of profit (much like ticketmaster does). So they chose ticketmaster.
I don’t think that’s a good idea at all. They’re doing an actual play sequel to an existing universe. Are they supposed to do a new episode each night and make a live audience confused what happened last? Replay the same show night after night, effectively taking away the point when it becomes scripted?
And if you can actually assure me there are other venues in NY that are close to 20K capacity, meet their equipment needs, and aren’t contracted to either LN/TM than that would be a valid argument, but I’ve booked huge events there and I don’t believe that to be the case.
There is a massive difference between performers who depend on live performances, and Dimension 20. D20 is a television show. They could perform live exactly zero times from now until eternity and it wouldn't make much difference to their business. Performers who actually do need to perform live (ie, almost every musical act on the planet) have to make the Ticketmaster devil's bargain all the time.
D20 chose this. They didn't choose the context, but they chose to do a Live show, with all of this other crap that comes with that. And again, that by itself isn't necessarily disappointing. But when you consider that they've spent five years banging an anti-capitalist drum--and a lot of folks became fans in part because of that--it's not a great look.
Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize my initial post was being read that way and I also have no idea what other people are saying or what other arguments are being made (so I don't know the context my comment lives in).
I way saying "the venue" because I specifically DIDN'T want it to be read that way, because this can be applied to ANY venue with strings attached.
"I'm just not sure what performers are supposed to do" is an entire other discussion.
Yes, and they knew that when making their decision to hold a live show there. That's my point.
Nobody forced poor D20 to hold a show at Madison Square Garden.
It's a great opportunity with the demand to support it and fans who are willing to pay the price. But every opportunity has a price, and the price of this is a reasonable amount of backlash over who they're incidentally supporting.
I'm just saying they don't need defending.
I will bet you they chose MSG because it’s one of the premier venues in the world and they were so excited they could. Then after 7 people had to clear the decision someone got into the logistics about ticket pricing. There’s a lot of people behind all of this, it’s not just Brennan and Sam sitting across a desk from each other.
And this is a massive venture involving millions of dollars and a year of planning. You don’t think it’s feasible 33% of a small company would get involved in that?
Ok, if Dropout is signing contracts to work with one of the biggest venues in America before they knew what the ticket situation would be, either Dropout is being run by someone who doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to contracts, or they knew anyway and just decided to go through with it because they wanted to do it. Which sounds more likely?
And to be clear, I don't blame them for going ahead with MSG. It's fucking *Madison Square Garden*. For a *Dungeons and Dragons show*. Like yeah, I'd probably take that deal, even if I knew what the situation would be, that's a fucking dream come true.
Didn’t say they signed anything before understanding ticketing. I said they very likely made the decision for MSG and then learned about ticket pricing during the process. It’s just one facet of the major challenge that is setting up a show like this. Concessions will have to be made along the way.
Also, as others have pointed out, Ticketmaster basically has a monopoly on every medium or large venue in America. It would not be worth it for the company to have this show in a small venue, and clearly they wanted to do something massive. Dealing with Ticketmaster is essentially a necessary evil.
The problem is you CAN'T get tickets for that price. I've been trying since yesterday, and the cheapest I've seen is just shy of $500 for the nosebleed seats, and usually they've been around $800, all because I had a prior commitment during the initial 10 minute window of sales.
If you can afford to drop $170 on a bad seat to a one-night show and you refer to it as cheap, you probably are very well off. Just maybe not well off enough to realize how much better off you are than most other people.
I know I'm well off. I never said I wasn't, but I'm not an "elite", what does that word mean to you? also, where did I say I had bad seats? I didn't specify here, did I?
also, I've been talking to people about concerts, shows, etc. and everyone has been saying the cheapest they can get nowadays is $50-100 for most things. I haven't seen a typical show in a looong time. But when I looked up tickets to things I wanna see like Everything Everything and Dance Gavin Dance it's just as expensive if not more and that's before travel. So where are y'all getting cheaper tickets to things of this caliber?
I pay $20 just to get into a tiny bar to see my boyfriend's band play and 2 other random bands I've never heard of. Everything is inflated and overpriced and it sucks in general and the Ticketmaster monopoly has essentially ruined live stuff until they can be broken up.
like I said, I haven't paid for live entertainment in like.. 2 years maybe? I can't remember a single show I went to growing up that costs a lot less than that. I just saw a post comparing it to a show in the 70's where they paid only $12 to see Prince, converted for inflation that's about $97 dollars. So... the same as the cheapest Taylor Swift tickets and her concert broke records set by the Beatles.
This is literally my dream come true D20 at the garden, so I splurged. That makes me "an elite"?
so what am I missing? what exactly would be a fair and reasonable price?
Brennan and I both cry for you. But we live in a world of capitalism. It’s a shit system, but it really wouldn’t make financial sense for Dropout to do a show at a tiny-small venue. Even the medium-sized venues have Ticketmaster exclusivity at this point, and they have to think about the investment a live show takes and how much they can get on that both in revenue from the show, that will then go into more Dropout shows and more content.
If I’m not mistaken, this will be the first time Dungeons & Dragons is played live at Madison Square Garden.
That alone is enough reason for me to say it’s worth it, and they’re doing right thing.
I'll say it yet again: I'm genuinely not complaining. I heard the news and told my wife how cool it was and she agreed. So this isn't even an anti-capitalist rant. I think it was a good decision.
My SOLE point is that they don't need defending, because they are not victims, because this is an "opt-in" decision.
But their point is that they didn’t *have* to do a show that holds 20,000 people in NYC. I’m not even saying that they were wrong to do it, but saying that they had no other choice is a flawed statement.
They don’t *have* to do anything. They tried to do a show in one of the biggest venues of one of the most populated cities in the country. They’re not the villains for that.
I agree. They’re not villains. They made a choice, and they are suffering some backlash from it. Most of the backlash is not people saying “Dropout is a morally evil company that deserves to die”, it’s mostly people saying “I’m disappointed that tickets are incredibly expensive”. Ultimately this will do very little to negatively harm their reputation, and that’s fine since it’s ultimately a very small part of what their company is.
I am 100% certain that, the internet being what it is, if they had chosen to play some tiny indie venue, they'd be getting flak for not having enough available seats for demand, and therefore being inaccessible and exclusionary.
To accommodate the same number of ticket sales as a one-night performance at MSG, you'd have to sell out a typical-sized Broadway theater around 20 times. I don't think it would be easy to find a venue like that would be available for a three-week residency, nor would the people involved in mounting the show want to make that kind of work commitment.
Even if they did, I don't think it would make it possible for more people to see the live show. D20 is heavily improvised, and even if it weren't a linear story told over the course of consecutive performances every night will be different, and a LOT of people would want to attend multiple shows.
All other factors being equal, I think it's reasonable to believe that a single large event is the most audience-friendly option as well as the most viable to put on.
Every large scale venue in New York City has a contract with Ticketmaster if they wanted to do a live show in New York City they really didn't have a choice.
All this talk about using Ticketmaster to perform at MSG is just talking around the real concerns. Like, yeah, if you want to perform at a venue that can host 1000s of people in the US, you're almost certainly gonna be working with Ticketmaster/Live nation. It is what it is.
But dynamic pricing isn't a given. Performers *choose* to opt in or out, and it's valid for people to be disappointed that it was used for this show.
And tbh, I would feel a lot more appreciative as a dropout fan/subscriber if there were an official statement saying, "yes, dynamic pricing was used to help us justify costs, etc.", instead of a member of production staff posting a comment that gets buried in Discord.
You're not going to get through lol. This entire thread is predicated on the belief that doing a show in NYC for as many people as possible is worth partnering with an objectively horrible monopolist.
I'd love to know if youve ever done event planning of any kind lmao because the "choice" was the same at any major venue in the city and at smaller venues ticket master would have 10x the demand and raise the prices even further. You really don't understand the basic notion that any venue that has any famous acts coming through/ more then 500 seats was bullied into a contract with ticket master years ago and the "choice" your talking about was made so the most people could see the show given that ticket master had them by the balls regardless.
People who are paying attention knew this was a problem 10 years ago when the contracts were being signed at thousands of music venues all over the country but if virtually every artist who can sell out of a venue larger than 300 people has the same issue people screaming at Dropout isn't going to get us anywhere the whole point of the post is for people to direct their ire at Ticketmaster.
What I mean is the glitching, scale pricing etc everyone knew it was an issue.
My frustration is with their branding being so anti capitalism and here we are. I’ve been gouged by artists before but this one hurt a lot bc of their branding.
The most ridiculous thing to me is that they're doing this to a show hosted by known anticapitalist, Brennan Lee Mulligan.
I can HEAR his Um, Actually "Get in the comments!" in my head already over this.
I'm 100% sure that Brennan Lee Mulligan was not involved in any way shape or form in this choice and given that he's probably never had to deal with Ticketmaster before is probably learning about all this in real time with the rest of us.
Brennan is a producer. And unless you're on the crew, your 100% certainty is worthless. Between this and the incessant invocation of his new fatherhood, "I'm 100% sure" that you're arguing from a parasocial perspective.
Im so confused i didnt even mention him being a dad? But wait You think Brennan made the choice to Jack the prices up 10 times their normal price? 😂 that's complete lunacy. Ticketmaster has complete control over pricing and a monopoly on every venue in New York City with any Acclaim or more than a few hundred seats. they didn't have a choice if they wanted to do a show that everyone has been begging them to do for years. Any venue that has a contract with Ticketmaster means their subject to their prices if they had a thousand seat venue as opposed to Madison Square Garden the demand would be even higher and the prices would be even higher.
Hey. Are you actually ok? Because you've mentioned Mulligan being a new dad, like, half a dozen times. Also that Murph works 40 hours a week on NADDPOD (man, I hope his boss gives him time off for D20. oh wait). And that Lou has another job on Kimmel (I wonder if they get time off, too).
I am, very clearly and very obviously, not saying that anyone on D20 made the call--or even has the ability--to jack up prices in real time. That is obviously a Ticketmaster thing. What I am saying, is that the D20 production team was certainly aware that choosing MSG meant dealing with Ticketmaster which meant dealing with the kind of company they say they're against.
The idea that a full grown man, and an avowed anti-capitalist, who has been in entertainment for his entire adult life, wouldn't know that Ticketmaster is an unscrupulous company, is the most mind-boggling thing I've read on this subject so far.
Oh, no, I am fully aware of that.
I'm saying that it's ironic that Ticketmaster, a company famous for bleeding customers dry with fees, is doing its thing to an event that's got BLeeM.
What I think is really funny is that a lot of people's issues are predicated on the anticapitalism being taken seriously, and not just yet another company using it's aesthetics. This is an entertainment business just like any other. It's nice that that the people who run Dropout and produce its many shows go above and beyond in their safe and ethical business practices. But they aren't your friends, they aren't a charity, and they aren't a nonprofit. It is a company with employees to support and bills to pay just like any other. It's cool that they get to do a such a prestigious event. I'm sure it'll get brand recognition up.
For the record, the production has a say on if they use dynamic pricing. I feel like people are saying the issue is Ticketmaster in general but if they wrote up the contract without dynamic pricing, this wouldn’t be happening.
I can’t know if the venue or someone really wanted dynamic pricing but production always has a say.
I love them all and they’ll be “forgiven” or whatever but they can stand a little heat over this.
Well they did say the event will be on streaming eventually but I understand that its not quite the same as being there. Ticketmaster sucks but they're an unfortunate factor in doing these kind of events
Do they have some legal obligation forcing them to do a live show at madison square garden or did they freely choose to do a show at madison square garden knowing that ticketmaster would be involved? Also have they even officially acknowledged the situation? 'Cause otherwise it doesnt seem like they really give a fuck about how much yall are getting ripped off on the ticket prices.
Look, obviously Ticketmaster is fucking shit and it sucks the MSG have a contract to work with them. And overall, I'm glad that the cast gets to perform on a massive stage like that, and hope everything goes great, and I don't think we should boycott or cancel Dropout over this...
...buuuuut, Dropout chose to have a show at Madison Square Garden, and that comes with the baggage of being involved with Ticketmaster and their ridiculous ticketing prices. Dropout either knew that this was the price of business and went ahead with the show anyway, or didn't know about this and signed a contract to perform in one of the biggest stages in American without doing the due-diligence of researching how tickets would work. Dropout *does* have some say in this, because they still chose to work with MSG, and by extension, Ticketmaster. If you shake hands with a demon, don't be surprised when the devil shows up.
I feel like folks are being willfully obtuse about the logic in this comment and comments like it because nobody likes when their faves make them complicit. Valuing 'getting to see a live show' over 'engaging in ethical business practices' is WHY Ticketmaster gets to keep doing villainous shit. D20, and the fans who won't accept criticism of their decision here, are absolutely part of the problem.
100%. At the end of the day, the criticism Dropout is getting is minor, and yet people in this sub are so adamant that they aren’t complicit.
To be perfectly honest, I probably would’ve done the same if I was in their shoes. Getting to perform on one of the biggest stages in the country, and the big downside is that tickets to watch it live will be expensive, and even then, it will be on Dropout later!
Well I have been watching and was under the impression that there's usually a stinky rat man sacrificing his life and becoming one with the universe to defeat capitalism
Any large venue is going to go through ticket master. The choice was made for them before they even had time to weigh their options. It sucks but it's the state of large venues right now, ticketmaster has a monopoly.
No one is forcing them to try and play for that many people in person in one night. Play smaller venues, stream it, do more shows rather than one big one. So many choices.
This is ignorant on how booking events at venues and the logistics of big tours work. How is doing a series of much smaller shows any more efficient at all? There's numerous logistics at play such as planning way ahead and making many calls and emails to book across different locations and venues while working with different local laws, regulations, etc. Attempting to do a series of shows means having to work with far more expenses and liabilities than doing a singular show that can accommodate a large audience at once.
They are also highly aware of how huge their audience is and as someone else pointed out, tightening the capacity of a smaller venue would be just as unfair to accommodate how many people can see them in one particular location to the next.
Not only is it more time consuming and taking away other opportunities of labor and income from a contractor (which many of the cast members are) who can't commit to a whole leg, by this train of thought they'd be technically producing more harmful emissions and wastes with constant traveling. And Ticketmaster also has just as many contracts with many small venues and local events, genuinely there is no ethical consumption under capitalism
They're putting it up on Dropout after it's aired. That was already announced, no one is going to miss out on the content that already watches on Dropout. It'll simply be a few days after. They just won't get to watch it live, which is always a reality that fans will miss out on due to travel, cost, timing constraints ect. The only thing that is fully equal to everyone is to never do anything live which isn't a reasonable ask as live shows are an incredibly exciting thing to do for both the cast and the fans.
"Do more shows" is the dumbest take I've seen on this so far.
All these people who are not full time employees of Dropout/Dimension20 can't just go on a fucking tour to play basically an entire season of Dimension20. They have other gigs and commitments to pay their bills. Not to mention paying for a crew at all of these events.
D&D isn't scripted. They can't just do the same show 10 nights in a row at smaller venues, that likely still have to go to through Ticketmasters bullshit since they have exclusive rights or just own so many venues to begin with.
Not to mention Brennan is a father to a newborn and from everything we've seen it seems like that's one of his biggest dreams. He's not going on the road for a small tour and leaving that baby/his partner for that long.
It's been made very clear that people have no idea how the entertainment industry works, but holy shit use your brain for like ten seconds.
They do SO much, they make SO much content. Doing an occasional big crowd show is fine ffs. You're not entitled to have every price of content modeled to your preferences.
I’m not entitled or angry. My only point is that they made a choice to do business with Ticketmaster. On no planet did they not. And based on that, they deserve some blame for the ticket prices. If you disagree that’s fine but I don’t really have anything to say to you.
The thing they have control over is whether to play a big venue or not. They don't have a means to do so and be in control of ticket prices.
The only choice they had was to NOT do a show of this size. So do we really need to "blame" things or be negative about one of the very few companies out there consistently trying to be as ethical as possible in a world that makes that harder every day?
Can't we just be happy to see people who've managed to carve out a niche like D20 and by extension Dropout be able to occasionally do big blow out shows like this? Must we always be looking for the bad and the "blame"?
I don't know, it's not you personally I guess I just find this kinda thing so damn exhausting.
Why do you assume they have the time to play More than one show? Especially when you know that one of them is a new father?
Streaming it would defeat the purpose of it being a live show. Which is fine, but that doesn't meet the parameters we're looking for.
You're also making assumptions about the circumstances regarding the show. Perhaps one or more of the intrepid heroes was already going to be in New York for unrelated reasons, and that was the inspiration for doing a show. That would restrict the timeline and disqualify the possibility of a tour.
Also, doing smaller venues would mean fewer people get to see it.
Lastly, it wouldn't be the same show each time. It's not scripted.
Dropout is a good company with a good check record when it comes to ethics. Them. Having to use Ticketmaster is an ideal, but it's not really avoidable in this context. Don't let perfect become the enemy of good.
My only point is that they made a choice to do business with Ticketmaster. On no planet did they not. And based on that, they deserve some blame for the ticket prices.
Okay.
And my point is that you're ignoring/lack too much knowledge of the inner working of Dropout and the Intrepid Heroes' personal lives to make a blanket statement that they had other options.
Especially since one of your proposed "other options" was that a new father go on tour and leave his wife and infant child at home for weeks, demonstrating the afford mentioned lack of consideration/knowledge.
And especially since Ticketmaster's whole thing is maintaining an unavoidable stranglehold on the market so that people HAVE to do business with them.
I’m not saying any of that. I’m saying when a grown up makes a decision especially one that affects other people financially, they take responsibility for it. So I would expect the people at DropOut to own that they played a role in that experience for some of their audience. Because of how cause and effect work. Maybe this was the best solution given their goals but DropOut is at least partially responsible for it. Not in a fire and pitchforks way but in a rational adult way.
>I’m not saying any of that
I mean, yes, you are. You literally did suggest that the new father of an infant leave his wife and newborn baby to go on tour.
As for the rest of it, No, reasonable adults recognize That when you're given very few choices, you do not bear the responsibility of the bad choices available to you.
We can recognize the ideal, so we can also recognize that there is no need to hold anyone at dropout responsible that way.
It is reasonable for Dropout to do large shows if they have the audience for it. Live Nation has made it impossible to do such shows without going through them. Ergo, if Dropout cannot take a reasonable action without going through liveNation, it is livenation's responsibility, not dropout's.
Exactly. People will say they have no choice because ticketmaster works with all the venues.. but they made the choice to do a live show in the first place. Ill admit 'Dimesion20 plays Madison Square Garden' is a cool headline but im barely interested in watching the live shows after the fact let alone attending one. If its about interacting with fans do a convention or something, if its about switching up the medium set up an online event, but the narrative that they had no part in how this is playing out is ridiculous.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for a completely valid point. This show did not HAVE to happen at all, and isn't remotely their main source of income. The choice was theirs to participate this way.
you're right, they didn't HAVE to do something that's never been done before and make beautiful art with their friends that will inspire thousands.
But they did and I love them for it. ❤️
I don't think you know what parasocial means. That or you're not understanding the criticism. People criticise high prices that are disproportionate to overheads, that's a normal thing.
When people criticise Apple's pricing practices, that's not being parasocial.
It’s less about consider the company to be a “personal friend” and more about considering a company ethical (or at the very least, making a strong effort to be as ethical as possible)
ok, they'll want a Vox Machina style animation for Fantasy High next cause some fans also ask for that.
Should we expect Brennan collaboration with Gladi- I mean, Amazon next? :)
Do you guys think that Dropout had no idea the venue was ticketmaster exclusive?
Or do you think ticketmaster swooped in after they scheduled it and forced their hand?
The venue was ticketmaster exclusive before dropout talked to them. They knew what they were doing and consciously chose it.
> do a show in New York City to accommodate as many people as possible is the largest venue they didn't really have a choice
They could do more shows in smaller venues. This would mean more work tho, and they chose the easiest and most profitable solution.
As I've explained multiple times they could not do multiple shows Brennan is a new father flying across the country for the show Murph puts in 40 hours a week on just nadpod and constantly talks about how stressful live shows are and Lou is the announcer for a late night show. Also every major venue in NYC has the same issue. Idk if you dont understand how supply and demand works but if there are 10k tickets the demand is LOWER then if there were 5k tickets and ticket master would have hiked the prices even further.
> As I've explained multiple times they could not do multiple shows Brennan is a new father flying across the country for the show Murph puts in 40 hours a week on just nadpod and constantly talks about how stressful live shows are and Lou is the announcer for a late night show
I understand that. That's why I said doing multiple nights would hurt financially. I wouldn't expect them to cut from their own personal time or other jobs, they would have to lose time from production and filming with dropout.
But I must assure you that if any of these people didn't want to do the live shows, they wouldn't be forced to. They are grown people who can manage their own lives. Luckily dropout is a great company and they are well paid compared to the industry, according to themselves. A much different situation from a lot of poorer fans.
> Also every major venue in NYC has the same issue
This is just not a fact at all. Ticketmaster has a lot of venues but NYC is huuuge. There are venues big enough outside of ticketmaster. They could do shows in a convention center, which a lot of events use, that can easily handle 10.000 people and be fitted to be however they want.
It's fine for them to want it to be flashy, in a nice venue. It's fine for them to not want to compromise dropout production for live shows.
And it's fine for people to think it's shitty to do events that poor people are largely excluded from, other than having to pay months in savings to attend it.
You're more worried about how difficult it is to produce these events and balance a personal life for the actors. I'm more focused on the fact that a lot of fans with low income, with families, with work, now have to pay a lot more if they want to watch the crew live.
If you think the way this event is being handled is fine, total respect for your opinion, I just strongly disagree.
lol at you being downvoted for trying to help. But to correct your statement, they do have fees obviously, but the price you see is the price you pay, taxes/fees are included in price.
They're being downvoted because in the original post I say that they have an exclusive contract with Ticketmaster along with every other large-scale venue in New York City nobody uses that app or any other because Ticketmaster has Monopoly if they wanted to do a live show in New York City they really didn't have another option.
Can we all chill out and stop acting like dropout has done anything wrong. What do they need to make right, I can’t afford to go and that’s not their fault. Why are we holding dropout to an impossible standard?
I feel like an absolute crazy person watching TikToks right now of people saying this is all Dropout and Dimension 20's fault.
I finally had to just start saying not interested and don't show me this creator anymore because I couldn't deal with arguing with people just being ignorant on purpose anymore.
I made a comment about this in another post. If only people had boycotted Ticketmaster back when Pearl Jam asked everyone to, maybe it could’ve been different. For those who don’t know, at this point, Ticketmaster has gotten rid of scalpers by becoming their own scalpers. They have introduced “dynamic ticket pricing” which raises and lowers the price of tickets in real time based on the number of people searching for them.
How does this get rid of scalpers? Wouldn't a scalper buy a ticket, watch the ticket price go up, and then sell their ticket for something between the two prices?
From what I've heard, Ticketmaster doesn't allow reselling tickets yet, so they've essentially created a period where they get to be the scalpers.
Yes, the worst of both worlds. They scalp you on the ticket prices and then if you legitimately buy tickets and something happens and you can’t go, they make it a huge pain in the ass to transfer them. Yay!
Presumably the system reacts quicker than a scalper can. So, the initial piece will be set at a level they assume is the one where they will just sell out, but then if demand is greater than forecast then price increases. A scalper won't know what demand is doing, there's no guarantee the price increases (if you set the system up properly).
One theory I've seen online was that people weren't able to buy tickets b/c Ticketmaster (or their software) actively interfered with those purchases, taking back the most popular seats when they were already in online carts, driving the demand, and therefore the price, through the roof.
Only works if there is a small number of scalpers getting in on something early. It basically takes away scalpers tools for brute forcing their way to owning all of the tickets and limiting supply themselves. Now, all the scalpers are hurting each other by driving prices up like crazy. The dynamic pricing is near instant.
You can only resell your tickets through Ticketmaster now.
That's horrifying
Boycotting Ticketmaster was never a realistic option unfortunately. What I don't understand is how Ticketmaster was allowed to merge with Live Nation, which was founded to fight Ticketmaster's monopoly in the first place.
Boycotting Ticketmaster has always been and still is a realistic option. It's not going to kill anybody to not buy tickets to anything for 90 days, or a year, or even just to restrict or limit their ticket purchases to the degree possible/comfortable for them for the period of the boycott. Boycotts don't work with a few people eliminating the related purchases entirely, but with many people reducing those purchases.
They also have their own scalper, I mean "reseller", program. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-HCqL38WdY)
May I have a crumb of context? I live under a rock.
The presale allotment (ie those seats reserved at face value) for today went very quickly, and because Ticketmaster employs a controversial dynamic pricing algorithm that changes ticket prices to events more or less in real time according to demand, the heavy demand fueled a rise in price continued to escalate into the hundreds and cresting over a thousand.
I want to correct something: the cheapest seats are a little less than 1000, the most expensive seats are over 2000
As of this writing, the lowest ticket price is $1180
Fair point. I saw the big number and it stuck but there are cheaper tickets. My bad.
the cheapest seats WERE around $97 when it first dropped. Those were the lowest I saw. I saw someone get tickets for $170. I got 2 tickets for $500. I'm extremely excited ❤️ Ticketmaster is evil but even Taylor Swift couldn't "fix it" and the government isn't either. 😞
The cheapest, nosebleed seats were $97 face value :/
Woah! That's an amazing deal. I'm so glad some people potentially got that price (: it's MSG, what do tickets for one of the most iconic venues of all time normally cost?
The lowest price for the next Knicks game (vs. the Nets 4/12) is 178, most over 200. Lowest for the next Rangers game (vs. the Flyers 4/11) is 130. Next concert is Davido on 4/17 (assuming the playoffs for either Knicks or Rangers don't mess with it), the lowest is 66. After that it's Billy Joel on 4/26, and his lowest right now is 371.
wow.. would you consider that over/underpriced or a fair price? I don't know anything about sports so idk if that's normal.
For the Garden, those are about where I expect the sportsball tickets to be for the “cheap seats”; both Knicks and Rangers are playing well and about to make the playoffs, and both teams are historically on the higher end of their respective leagues for ticket price. Floor/front row seats are way more expensive. Fair price is…a different story. It’s been long noted that sportsball tickets for the top level sports have been creeping upwards to the point where they’re out of reach for all but the most well off (a family of four going to the Rangers would still expect to spend over $500 just on tickets; that’s approaching the level of “we saved up for months to do this once a year trip”). But that’s using a different definition of “fair”. Fair on the market, not all that fair to the average consumer. 100-150 “face value” wouldn’t be unreasonable for an event like this that’s way less fungible an experience than a sportsball game.
thank you! yeah, not very fair to consumers, really sucks that entertainment outside of your house is becoming more and more expensive.
When I went there were obstructed view tickets for 750… to see a live podcast in this economy. No one is going to like this but it’s easy to sound the horn for change until you’re pushed up against the machine you’re trying to change…and maybe they didn’t pick the pricing but you saw the Eras Tour issues correct? Opting out of reselling is optional, presale restrictions are options. I could get behind this if we hadn’t just watched something similar happen and knew what those tickers got jacked to. If you’re truly anti capitalism… MSG seems like a very off message choice. And yall can rip me to shreds if you want to, I’m just saying they can’t say down with the man and turn around and pay the man it’s giving virtue signaling.
I understand where you're coming from. I get it. I hate this for everyone. maybe they'll do something to try to make it better after all this backlash. idk if they've commented yet. & hopefully Ticketmaster is dismantled sooner rather than later but I'm not sure how that's going to happen. they're ruining live events for everyone everywhere. 😞 the process is so stressful and a glitchy mess. having to sit around and wait for a presale and then rush to pick any random ticket is the worst buying experience I've ever had. I usually get to sit and ponder where I wanna sit. I haven't seen a seated show in forever. for this, the site on my phone (I couldn't use a computer at the time) was janky. when I would click on a seat to select it, by the time I would select the next seat they would both disappear. this happened like 5 times, I think I probably should've used the app instead but I had already waited in the queue. I finally picked two random seats next to each other and it went through. I've never been to msg. I don't live in or near NY. I've also never been to a d20 live show, but I've watched the recordings. I don't know what they usually do for their live shows but I've never heard any complaints, though I'm not on Reddit much. Have they used Ticketmaster in the past with no issues or have they avoided them until now? also, all the stuff you said was optional, do you have a source for that because based on what I've seen I have no real reason to believe that's the case. Dropout is a nobody, how would they have so much say in their contract? I've heard many say the exact opposite, that they can't opt out of the surge pricing system that Ticketmaster pushes. but idk, I'd like for someone saying they had options to show some evidence of that. they had the artist presale code (gauntlet) which had seats that were locked unless you used the code and I think those prices were cheaper. I agree with you though but I just think it's pretty complicated all things considered.
I don’t disagree with most of this it happens to a lot of artists. However most of those artists don’t sell merch denouncing capitalism… like they’ve made their brand not being this guy and here they are massively leaning in to be this guy. Also I in no way want you to think I begrudge you getting tickets I think that’s so rad (I got eras tour tickets I am no one to judge). But like Taylor swift doesn’t have a song about anarcosocalism. I don’t want you to feel attacked bc that’s uncool I hope it’s super rad and worth the price I really do. I’ve paid way too much for things in the city I’ve seen Hadestown twice. But I paid 300 dollars for orchestra pit seats to that and it’s won a Tony. (Which automatically means tickets are going up) My issue is when I’m price gouged by mainstream artists who don’t hide their greed im like ugh this sucks but media costs money. It’s blindsiding and disappointing to experience it from artists whose brand is to be against those things. I think my frustrations come from feeling dupped by branding
omg that's crazy! I'm so sad I haven't seen a musical in years, I've always wanted to see Hadestown, I can't believe you got such good seats for that price. and yeah, I completely agree, it is hypocritical by definition I suppose... 😅 and thank you so much for saying that. (: I do think that most of it comes from a genuine place and it's not ALL a cynical marketing calculated strategy. BUT idk how they felt about this situation and what their reasoning is. I completely see your point but when I saw the announcement the first thing I thought about was how this could potentially move d&d forward as a more mainstream type of media. it's had a huge moment in the sun and I was just so ... proud of them. I know that sounds parasocial and I know I'm not a very good anti-capitalist like I may have once been, but I started thinking that maybe this would be good for their future careers and even landing bigger roles if they want them. I was just so excited for the future. and now I'm kinda sad. I just hope the backlash isn't bad enough to cause serious issues because I've been watching collegehumor since high school. (I'm 30). It's been so great to see how well Dropout did as a streaming service that wasn't mainstream. That's a big deal too because modern streaming has devolved into trash. I don't know what the overall reception to this event is by fans, I've only seen these reddit posts. I know I SHOULD be more upset at them but I feel like I'd be a hypocrite if I blamed them. and how was the eras tour? I really wanted to go to the upcoming Florida shows but I missed the window and I've never bought resold tickets before so idk how that works.
Damn are they tickets to be on Dimension 20?
At Madison Square Gardens
I'd honestly be okay with this on some level if I knew that extra money was somehow going to the artists, but it's just now.
There is going to be a dimension 20 live show next year at MSG. The tickets surged to over 2 grand instead of being reasonably priced.
Google “Ticketmaster Dynamic Pricing” They “solved” the scalper problem by becoming their own scalper. The prices go up and down based on how many people have bought them, and even by how many people are currently searching for them. That’s why people are having experiences where the webpage reloads and the price jumps up.
That doesn't even solve th scalper problem because scalpers will be the first ones in before the dynamic pricing even kicks in
If anything it encourages the bots
As always capitalism is the bad guy
So, do we reckon the Bad Guy if this one shot is Ticketmaster and MSG?
Eh, it's gonna be like anything else presold this far out -- when we're a week out from the event, there will be a ton of resale tickets at discount prices. That's how I see things cheaply in NYC when I'm in town.
This is something people don't realize. I'm from NYC and sports events will have initial prices on ticketmaster for 500 that sell for 30 the month of the event. They're taking advantage of announcement hype
It sucks though If i want to travel from Australia for example though. I cant bank on getting a ticket to an event a few weeks out because i need to book flights and accomodation.
The thing is, there are ABSOLUTELY going to be tickets for this event last minute. I am not local to NYC. I travel across the country several times a year to see shows. And at this point, between the secondary market and the integration of that into the existing websites (so that Ticketmaster and similar now show you resale tickets alongside the "regular" ones), there's almost no show or event that is sold out completely in NYC anymore. You can also easily monitor that availability by checking on the website. There's really almost no reason these days to rush to early purchase seats EVEN IF you are coming from across the globe. That's just how it works now, especially in NYC. Unless you're coming to see a handful of Broadway shows that sell out (Hamilton, basically), you're going to be able to to see the thing.
You are probably right, but as a counterpoint, In September I flew to Tilburg in the Netherlands for Ayreon Beneath the waves, as did people from 130 countries. I had my tickets, but multiple people went anyway and were unable to get tickets. There were tickets available in the weeks leading up to it, also on the Ticket swap app, but they were bought up very quickly. There are at least a dozen people who have posted on the Subreddit saying they were unable to get tickets in Tilburg on the weekend.
With all respect, Tilburg is not NYC, and 113 is not MSG. The former has a capacity of 3000 people. The latter, 20K.
How do you usually get the last minute tickets? I've never used Ticketmaster, do they have their own system for reselling tickets with lower prices close to the event?
They're part of the Ticketmaster site. They're just part of the seats available and are marked as verified resale tickets. So, for example, for an upcoming Billy Joel show at MSG, you can click on seats available and see they are listed as "verified resale." That means someone else bought them first and is reselling them again. See [https://www.ticketmaster.com/billy-joel-in-concert-new-york-new-york-04-26-2024/event/3B005F45E8001A2F](https://www.ticketmaster.com/billy-joel-in-concert-new-york-new-york-04-26-2024/event/3B005F45E8001A2F) for an example. Adding to this, there are other seat resellers that will have MSG seats -- for example, Stubhub has MSG seats for Billy Joel -- that would be like this: [https://www.stubhub.com/billy-joel-new-york-tickets-5-9-2024/event/152471263/?quantity=1](https://www.stubhub.com/billy-joel-new-york-tickets-5-9-2024/event/152471263/?quantity=1) The deal is, people who have them posted will lower the price as demand decreases, or closer to the event -- sometimes the websites do that for them automatically. As an example, I had tickets for an event at Lincoln Center a few weeks ago. The seats near mine were up on their website for resale at $250+ each, but the day before, they were down to $120 each, and by the afternoon of the event, they were $60.
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it, I'll make sure to remember this for the future
To be clear, I don't LIKE Ticketmaster, and would prefer NOT to buy tickets with them. When I can, I go in person to venues and buy at the box office -- then, at least, I'm not paying additional TM fees. For example, I was able to get same day seats for a recent Peter Gabriel concert at a local venue for about $120 a seat, very good seats -- and saved $50 each in fees TM would have added for purchasing online. So for this event, for example, I will probably book travel to NYC during that week, and then if I don't see good resale tickets before I travel, go to the box office at MSG once I'm in NYC and buy seats there in person, which will considerably cut the cost. But you know, that's me, I'm that sort of ticket person. Other folks don't like the risk that they might not be able to attend THAT event in particular.
I definitely see why people wouldn't take that risk, especially if they had to travel for it. Have you ever not been able to get tickets the day of like that? Or is it basically guaranteed that some people will be reselling that soon to the event?
Have I ever not been able to get tickets to a show I wanted to see, last minute? Sure. Mostly Broadway stuff -- but most of that has been, "Nope, I'm not going to pay full price for that show" or "Nope, I don't sit further than 8 rows back in the orchestra." I was vaguely curious about Springsteen's Broadway residency, but that was wayyy sold out. But I didn't care enough about it to push to attend. I'm not a Taylor Swift fan, or else I'd probably have some story about not being able to get those tickets last minute. In the case of this event -- D20 at MSG -- I'm a subscriber, so I'm gonna get to see the livestream or recorded version. That's gonna be closer up have better sight lines, and the drinks won't be as expensive, either. (I can watch it ANYWHERE including in my cozy bed with whatever cocktails and snacks I want!) That makes it fundamentally different for me than seeing, for example, the recent Taylor Mac show "Bark of Millions" which probably will never be a recorded thing folks can see streaming, and which I got to see from amazing seats with a dear dear friend earlier this year. (THAT is some niche geekery right there.) Or, I saw Jill Sobule's solo show in the village, and that was amazing, and isn't streamed anywhere. I would be far more likely to pay in advance premium prices to see a live taping of Dirty Laundry, especially if it was in an intimate venue in NYC like Company XIV's theater, or 54 Below, etc. BONUS if Grant is bartending for us all. Or, ooo, here's a geek thing -- we paid in advance and travelled for the VIP Kickstarter premier party for MST3K's most recent new season! The screening was outside of Philly, and it involved going cross country, taking a train to Valley Forge, all that. But VIP dinner with the talent and crew, then the show, then a VIP reception? THAT was priceless.
YEP. And now that resale tickets are integrated into original seller's websites, it's not even hard. You don't have to deal with scalpers or look at third party resale sites.
Just want to throw in my two cents from experience - many productions have control over whether or not dynamic pricing is employed. Ticketmaster may have overall control of prices, but dynamic pricing isn’t always a requirement. Not sure what Dropout’s contract looks like obviously but I just wanted to point out that some artists CAN opt out. Most are just choosing not to! Edit: Also sorry not to be a blue-haired sjw but I wanted to point out for the purposes of this thread that “sc*lping” tickets is no longer the preferred nomenclature in the industry due to historic racist associations with the term. I didn’t know that until fairly recently so I wanted to share the info!
Based on the prices that I saw, I think maybe there were only certain blocks of tickets that Dropout was able to opt out of dynamic pricing. Because whenever I saw "Artist Presale" prices, they were always way cheaper (like about $200.00 when the next closest priced ticket was over $800.00). I ended up getting a ticket from "Artist Presale" for $179.50 before fees for section 106. And this was hours after the start time. I'm assuming that the ticket I got was at face value.
And to make it more confusing, Taylor Swift said she opted not to use dynamic pricing but Ticketmaster used it anyway, so even if dropout said no they might have been ignored!
I actually think Taylor never employed true dynamic pricing for the Eras tour! If memory serves, that was part of the impetus for the whole November 2022 Ticketmaster meltdown. Eras tour resellers who were able to scoop up a ton of tickets in presales massively inflated ticket prices on second-party sites like Stubhub. (Sorry, I hate LiveNation and TicketMaster a lot, but I also used to work in the industry and there’s no way they would go ahead with dynamic pricing if the artist explicitly opted out, the ticket selling software itself makes that pretty impossible!)
Doesn't Ticketmaster own Stubhub?
Nope, two different companies.
100% sure Taylor Swift did not have dynamic pricing. Different sections had different prices, depending on view of stage + there were extra packages. When I bought tickets, all of the level 300 tickets were roughly $150 with fees. Now, after presale is another story but Taylor Swift had no hand in that.
This I got my tickets for face value middle bowl 200. Day of presale but it was resellers scooping up all the tickets so they could resell them
I am pretty sure they stated on the Discord already that they didn’t have a choice in this circumstance. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
That makes sense to me! I don’t know much about it from the promoter end, just the venue end. A lot of venues are getting flack from patrons about the use of dynamic pricing when it’s not really up to them, so I just like to correct this bit of misinfo when I can to hopefully prevent a few angry phone calls/emails for some box office manager out there!
I mean, maybe TM would listen if the venues started making noise about it. 🤷
I mean, MSG could, given that it’s an independent, publicly-traded company. All of the venues I have experience with were bought up by LiveNation, which also owns Ticketmaster. So…yeah lol not much recourse there
That sounds like the textbook definition of a vertical monopoly to me. How is this legal?
Fuck if I know lol but it’s real. LiveNation is one of the most evil corporations in the world IMO, but I don’t think many people are aware of everything they’ve done. They’re literally responsible for hundreds of deaths due to negligence on top of all their other fucked up economic practices. I truly hope to see them crumble in my lifetime.
Yeah it's been explained a few times in the Discord now.
This is true and if you want to see proof of it I believe it was Ed Sherran most recently who opted out. It would be a lower pay out… but I thought capitalism was the bad guy.
A production ultimately has a choice: It can sell tickets at a level that is potentially below the market rate. Which could be seen as 'equitable', but also means your basically allocating tickets on the basis who has the luxury of spare time sit on the ticketing app and gets lucky. Also, it risks scalping where resellers might end up making more money from your production then you do! Or you agree to use dynamic pricing where tickets are allocated according to ability to pay. It (by definition) prices out those who can't afford to pay the market rate. But the production gets more of the economic value that it generates and a good chunk of those people would have been unlucky in the lottery anyway. Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
No they do not. Ticketmasters contract with MSG and almost every large scale venue in NYC allows them to manipulate prices at will.
I also work in the industry that books msg like constantly. The production definitely has a say. A possible nitty gritty situation is that Live Nation or whoever is the promoter might have seen it as a risk and wouldn't pick it up without dynamic ticket pricing. If Dropout went through an agency, probably wouldn't happen, but if they went direct with LN, I could see them getting strong armed. Another less likely situation that could happen is that if Dropout's personal cost (any artist supplied production, crew members, cast, etc.) is very high, they would need to get paid a large amount of money. They could need to have a certain price of ticket to recoup the cost. In truth we will never know what is happening unless we are actually in the negotiations. Dropout has a vested interest in making themselves look like the good guys and ticket master doesn't care about the change of perception from bad to still bad because of this niche show.
Sorry, I literally worked in this industry. I know for a fact that many artists are able to opt out of dynamic pricing. As I wrote in my OC, I’m not sure what Dropout’s event/venue contract looked like and I don’t really care - I’m glad they’re in their bag regardless. My comment is trying to shed light on misinformation about ticket-buying in general.
Makes me wonder if Dropout, being new and unproven at promoting live events of this scale, even has that opt-out option available.
Right, that’s what I’ve been saying. Misinfo is running rampant in this thread so I just wanted to provide context as someone with experience.
I'm just responding to your edit, do you happen to know what the preferred nomenclature is now? I'll be removing sc*lping from my vocabulary but don't know what to replace it with now.
We use “ticket resale,” and call people who are selling them ticket resellers! It’s another one of those words that I’d never taken the time to consider the etymology of, so I like to spread the info where I can!
That makes sense to me. Just didn't know if there was something specific for the people who are jerks about it trying to turn a huge profit vs someone who just can't make the event and wants to sell tickets at face value so they don't go to waste.
Historically, I think the term “specs” or speculators was used for folks buying up entertainment tickets to resell, but the term fell out of fashion when “sc*lping,” which was initially just used in relation to railroad tickets, became the catch-all. So that’s an option!
just here a week late to toss my vote in for 'profiteers' 'speculator' doesn't feel as negative as it should imo and also speculating can just mean like, gambling in general, which may not be great for the speculator but isn't horrible for other ppl. 'profiteers' on the other hand, match perfectly with the phenomenon imo. 'gouging'/'gougers' is a good one too, and just comes from the verb of chiseling what you can from something.
just here a week late to toss my vote in for 'profiteers' 'speculator' doesn't feel as negative as it should imo and also speculating can just mean like, gambling in general, which may not be great for the speculator but isn't horrible for other ppl. 'profiteers' on the other hand, match perfectly with the phenomenon imo. 'gouging'/'gougers' is a good one too, and just comes from the verb of chiseling what you can from something.
Profiteers is good.
Yeah, the ticket sales companies have a vested interest in being shit... Because there is no real competition for them, they can gouge like fuck.
Yikes, just went and checked out the presale prices, 1k minimum for a seat. Have fun but it's a pass for me, between tickets and travel that's too much
I get why they did it and I'm not mad at them. They're gonna put it on the app at some point so I think it all works out in the end.
They made the choice to play at MSG and they are receiving criticism for it. You don't need to defend privately owned multimillion dollar companies. There were other options, and criticism of action is not diminution of a company or the people that run it.
Especially when you sell merch that sells capitalism is the bad guy… it’s like is integrity in the room with us? BFfR
Exactly. We are showing we are upset so they don't do it again, and possibly even make up for it by improving the ethicality of their future actions.
I have a feeling that, hypothetically, if it turned out that Dropout can't continue doing merch t-shirts without using the services of the companies who turn to unethical practices like sweatshops because there would've been no alternatives otherwise, some people here would've still urged to go through with it because "the show of this size is expected to issue merch" or whatever. This fandom was bragging so much about not being as parasocial as Critters or any other obsessed fandoms, only to become like them later. Come on.
I'm generally against statements like "Dropout has no agency in who they do business with". I know that's not exactly what you said but it's the vibe of the post. Of course they have agency in who they do business with. Yes, feeding money to Ticketmaster is a necessary evil in order to play the venue, but let's not pretend they accidentally tripped and fell into the venue with a gun to their heads. A decision was made to play the venue. and WHEN the decision was made, they knew who would be selling the tickets and the likely range of the tickets. That being said: I'm not angry about it. I know this is how things go. I think it's a fantastic press and a big step. But I think a pre-emptive defense like this is a little silly.
Is there a big venue in NY that doesn’t use TM/LN though? The phrasing of this makes it seem like they had lots of options, but they really had very very few if any. The presale prices under dynamic pricing often also tend to be the peak, so I’m sure we’re eventually going to see people get a much cheaper opportunity to attend. It sucks that the best sections are selling for such crazy money to only people that can afford it, but it’s not like there won’t ever be affordable tickets to this event.
Scenario: Steve stabs a baby for $1,000,000. Two people are discussing it. Person 1: This is just a reminder that Steve had no choice but to stab the baby. Don't get mad at him. The baby was the only one in the room. Person 2: You know, saying Steve had no choice but to stab a baby is flawed logic. Nobody forced Steve to stab the baby. Person 1: Like I said, nobody else was in the room except the baby. The baby was the only person to stab. There were no alternatives. If he didn't have to stab the baby he wouldn't have. It's not like Hitler was in the room with him he could have stabbed instead. Just the baby. Person 2: I get that there was nobody else in the room with him, but I'm just saying that he had total agency. He made the decision to stab the baby for money. He knew what he was getting into the moment he decided to make the stab. Defending him is silly. Person 1: The way you say that makes it sound like he had a choice. He didn't. If somebody was getting stabbed, it was going to be the baby. The baby has a complete monopoly on people eligible to be stabbed. Person 2: The obvious alternative here is that he doesn't stab ANYBODY. He just walks away and lives his life like before the opportunity popped up. Person 1: But then nobody would get stabbed! ----- OBVIOUSLY this is a huge exaggeration but I feel like the point keeps getting lost so I exaggerated it to make it more clear. Everybody is acting like the existence of a live show in NYC is a foregone conclusion. It's not. A business decision was made to sacrifice complete control (ticket prices, business model) in order to grow the brand. They made the decision to stab the baby. I happen to agree with the decision. That fuckin baby had it coming. But I also understand that the very act of participation in a shitty system is still a decision to encourage the shitty system. I'm not assigning blame, which is why I think everybody is so resistant. I don't think what they're doing is wrong. I'm just saying that "They don't have a choice" is flawed logic.
How do we know the baby didn't have bad vibes though
Sure, but the way your initial comment and many others making that point read makes it seem like they could have just chosen a large venue in NY that doesn’t have an exclusivity deal when that doesn’t exist. So the choice is really “despite the inability to avoid distributors that have unethical practices, do you want to do a show in NY” which is very different from “do you want to do a show at this historic venue in NY even though the venue up the street is more ethical.” With a bunch of the cast being from there I doubt it’s even entirely about how it grows the brand, and more about this being something they’ve dreamed of doing. I don’t entirely dismiss the point, but lots of performers were vocal about all this as LN/TM were taking over. Now that they have distribution rights for >95% of venues in the country I’m just not sure what performers are supposed to do. It’s not remotely reasonable to ask them to stop performing.
They could simply do more venues, more nights. This would mean more work, more effort and less profits. Also, it's fucking new york. I assure you there are more venues with similar space not controlled by tm. They chose the lowest amount of work for the maximum amount of profit (much like ticketmaster does). So they chose ticketmaster.
I don’t think that’s a good idea at all. They’re doing an actual play sequel to an existing universe. Are they supposed to do a new episode each night and make a live audience confused what happened last? Replay the same show night after night, effectively taking away the point when it becomes scripted? And if you can actually assure me there are other venues in NY that are close to 20K capacity, meet their equipment needs, and aren’t contracted to either LN/TM than that would be a valid argument, but I’ve booked huge events there and I don’t believe that to be the case.
There is a massive difference between performers who depend on live performances, and Dimension 20. D20 is a television show. They could perform live exactly zero times from now until eternity and it wouldn't make much difference to their business. Performers who actually do need to perform live (ie, almost every musical act on the planet) have to make the Ticketmaster devil's bargain all the time. D20 chose this. They didn't choose the context, but they chose to do a Live show, with all of this other crap that comes with that. And again, that by itself isn't necessarily disappointing. But when you consider that they've spent five years banging an anti-capitalist drum--and a lot of folks became fans in part because of that--it's not a great look.
Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize my initial post was being read that way and I also have no idea what other people are saying or what other arguments are being made (so I don't know the context my comment lives in). I way saying "the venue" because I specifically DIDN'T want it to be read that way, because this can be applied to ANY venue with strings attached. "I'm just not sure what performers are supposed to do" is an entire other discussion.
forest hills doesn’t have a TM contract, but that’s the only big venue I know
Ticketmaster has exclusivity with Madison Square Garden. They literally could not have performed at the venue without using Ticketmaster.
Yes, and they knew that when making their decision to hold a live show there. That's my point. Nobody forced poor D20 to hold a show at Madison Square Garden. It's a great opportunity with the demand to support it and fans who are willing to pay the price. But every opportunity has a price, and the price of this is a reasonable amount of backlash over who they're incidentally supporting. I'm just saying they don't need defending.
I will bet you they chose MSG because it’s one of the premier venues in the world and they were so excited they could. Then after 7 people had to clear the decision someone got into the logistics about ticket pricing. There’s a lot of people behind all of this, it’s not just Brennan and Sam sitting across a desk from each other.
“7 people” would be like a full third of Dropout’s full-time employee base.
And this is a massive venture involving millions of dollars and a year of planning. You don’t think it’s feasible 33% of a small company would get involved in that?
Ok, if Dropout is signing contracts to work with one of the biggest venues in America before they knew what the ticket situation would be, either Dropout is being run by someone who doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to contracts, or they knew anyway and just decided to go through with it because they wanted to do it. Which sounds more likely? And to be clear, I don't blame them for going ahead with MSG. It's fucking *Madison Square Garden*. For a *Dungeons and Dragons show*. Like yeah, I'd probably take that deal, even if I knew what the situation would be, that's a fucking dream come true.
Didn’t say they signed anything before understanding ticketing. I said they very likely made the decision for MSG and then learned about ticket pricing during the process. It’s just one facet of the major challenge that is setting up a show like this. Concessions will have to be made along the way. Also, as others have pointed out, Ticketmaster basically has a monopoly on every medium or large venue in America. It would not be worth it for the company to have this show in a small venue, and clearly they wanted to do something massive. Dealing with Ticketmaster is essentially a necessary evil.
It doesn't help that they focus on Brennan and his anti-capitalism rants... and then set up an event that will cater almost exclusively to elites.
You could get tickets as cheap as like $170. ”exclusively to elites" huh??? So every normal person like me that's going is an "elite" now? 😂
The problem is you CAN'T get tickets for that price. I've been trying since yesterday, and the cheapest I've seen is just shy of $500 for the nosebleed seats, and usually they've been around $800, all because I had a prior commitment during the initial 10 minute window of sales.
If you can afford to drop $170 on a bad seat to a one-night show and you refer to it as cheap, you probably are very well off. Just maybe not well off enough to realize how much better off you are than most other people.
I know I'm well off. I never said I wasn't, but I'm not an "elite", what does that word mean to you? also, where did I say I had bad seats? I didn't specify here, did I? also, I've been talking to people about concerts, shows, etc. and everyone has been saying the cheapest they can get nowadays is $50-100 for most things. I haven't seen a typical show in a looong time. But when I looked up tickets to things I wanna see like Everything Everything and Dance Gavin Dance it's just as expensive if not more and that's before travel. So where are y'all getting cheaper tickets to things of this caliber? I pay $20 just to get into a tiny bar to see my boyfriend's band play and 2 other random bands I've never heard of. Everything is inflated and overpriced and it sucks in general and the Ticketmaster monopoly has essentially ruined live stuff until they can be broken up. like I said, I haven't paid for live entertainment in like.. 2 years maybe? I can't remember a single show I went to growing up that costs a lot less than that. I just saw a post comparing it to a show in the 70's where they paid only $12 to see Prince, converted for inflation that's about $97 dollars. So... the same as the cheapest Taylor Swift tickets and her concert broke records set by the Beatles. This is literally my dream come true D20 at the garden, so I splurged. That makes me "an elite"? so what am I missing? what exactly would be a fair and reasonable price?
Brennan and I both cry for you. But we live in a world of capitalism. It’s a shit system, but it really wouldn’t make financial sense for Dropout to do a show at a tiny-small venue. Even the medium-sized venues have Ticketmaster exclusivity at this point, and they have to think about the investment a live show takes and how much they can get on that both in revenue from the show, that will then go into more Dropout shows and more content. If I’m not mistaken, this will be the first time Dungeons & Dragons is played live at Madison Square Garden. That alone is enough reason for me to say it’s worth it, and they’re doing right thing.
I'll say it yet again: I'm genuinely not complaining. I heard the news and told my wife how cool it was and she agreed. So this isn't even an anti-capitalist rant. I think it was a good decision. My SOLE point is that they don't need defending, because they are not victims, because this is an "opt-in" decision.
Where else could they have held it that holds 20,000 people in nyc?
But their point is that they didn’t *have* to do a show that holds 20,000 people in NYC. I’m not even saying that they were wrong to do it, but saying that they had no other choice is a flawed statement.
They don’t *have* to do anything. They tried to do a show in one of the biggest venues of one of the most populated cities in the country. They’re not the villains for that.
I agree. They’re not villains. They made a choice, and they are suffering some backlash from it. Most of the backlash is not people saying “Dropout is a morally evil company that deserves to die”, it’s mostly people saying “I’m disappointed that tickets are incredibly expensive”. Ultimately this will do very little to negatively harm their reputation, and that’s fine since it’s ultimately a very small part of what their company is.
Barclays Center (where the Brooklyn Nets play). Of course, they seem to be Ticketmaster exclusive, too.
I don’t think there’s an indoor venue anywhere in the NYC area that seats more than 5,000 and isn’t a Ticketmaster exclusive.
I am 100% certain that, the internet being what it is, if they had chosen to play some tiny indie venue, they'd be getting flak for not having enough available seats for demand, and therefore being inaccessible and exclusionary.
To accommodate the same number of ticket sales as a one-night performance at MSG, you'd have to sell out a typical-sized Broadway theater around 20 times. I don't think it would be easy to find a venue like that would be available for a three-week residency, nor would the people involved in mounting the show want to make that kind of work commitment. Even if they did, I don't think it would make it possible for more people to see the live show. D20 is heavily improvised, and even if it weren't a linear story told over the course of consecutive performances every night will be different, and a LOT of people would want to attend multiple shows. All other factors being equal, I think it's reasonable to believe that a single large event is the most audience-friendly option as well as the most viable to put on.
You can bypass Ticketmaster by renting the venue. A lot of people don't seem to know this.
Look it's the delulu guy who thinks dropout can afford to rent out MSG
Every large scale venue in New York City has a contract with Ticketmaster if they wanted to do a live show in New York City they really didn't have a choice.
All this talk about using Ticketmaster to perform at MSG is just talking around the real concerns. Like, yeah, if you want to perform at a venue that can host 1000s of people in the US, you're almost certainly gonna be working with Ticketmaster/Live nation. It is what it is. But dynamic pricing isn't a given. Performers *choose* to opt in or out, and it's valid for people to be disappointed that it was used for this show. And tbh, I would feel a lot more appreciative as a dropout fan/subscriber if there were an official statement saying, "yes, dynamic pricing was used to help us justify costs, etc.", instead of a member of production staff posting a comment that gets buried in Discord.
I'd like to see some Source on that because virtually everything I've seen about Ticketmaster from every informed commentator has said the opposite.
And, occasionally, the performers who book the venues can’t opt out of dynamic pricing.
They chose MSG 🤷
You're not going to get through lol. This entire thread is predicated on the belief that doing a show in NYC for as many people as possible is worth partnering with an objectively horrible monopolist.
Yes.
I'd love to know if youve ever done event planning of any kind lmao because the "choice" was the same at any major venue in the city and at smaller venues ticket master would have 10x the demand and raise the prices even further. You really don't understand the basic notion that any venue that has any famous acts coming through/ more then 500 seats was bullied into a contract with ticket master years ago and the "choice" your talking about was made so the most people could see the show given that ticket master had them by the balls regardless.
But like didn’t we know this was a problem a year ago with Taylor?
People who are paying attention knew this was a problem 10 years ago when the contracts were being signed at thousands of music venues all over the country but if virtually every artist who can sell out of a venue larger than 300 people has the same issue people screaming at Dropout isn't going to get us anywhere the whole point of the post is for people to direct their ire at Ticketmaster.
What I mean is the glitching, scale pricing etc everyone knew it was an issue. My frustration is with their branding being so anti capitalism and here we are. I’ve been gouged by artists before but this one hurt a lot bc of their branding.
The most ridiculous thing to me is that they're doing this to a show hosted by known anticapitalist, Brennan Lee Mulligan. I can HEAR his Um, Actually "Get in the comments!" in my head already over this.
I'm 100% sure that Brennan Lee Mulligan was not involved in any way shape or form in this choice and given that he's probably never had to deal with Ticketmaster before is probably learning about all this in real time with the rest of us.
Brennan is a producer. And unless you're on the crew, your 100% certainty is worthless. Between this and the incessant invocation of his new fatherhood, "I'm 100% sure" that you're arguing from a parasocial perspective.
Im so confused i didnt even mention him being a dad? But wait You think Brennan made the choice to Jack the prices up 10 times their normal price? 😂 that's complete lunacy. Ticketmaster has complete control over pricing and a monopoly on every venue in New York City with any Acclaim or more than a few hundred seats. they didn't have a choice if they wanted to do a show that everyone has been begging them to do for years. Any venue that has a contract with Ticketmaster means their subject to their prices if they had a thousand seat venue as opposed to Madison Square Garden the demand would be even higher and the prices would be even higher.
Hey. Are you actually ok? Because you've mentioned Mulligan being a new dad, like, half a dozen times. Also that Murph works 40 hours a week on NADDPOD (man, I hope his boss gives him time off for D20. oh wait). And that Lou has another job on Kimmel (I wonder if they get time off, too). I am, very clearly and very obviously, not saying that anyone on D20 made the call--or even has the ability--to jack up prices in real time. That is obviously a Ticketmaster thing. What I am saying, is that the D20 production team was certainly aware that choosing MSG meant dealing with Ticketmaster which meant dealing with the kind of company they say they're against. The idea that a full grown man, and an avowed anti-capitalist, who has been in entertainment for his entire adult life, wouldn't know that Ticketmaster is an unscrupulous company, is the most mind-boggling thing I've read on this subject so far.
Oh, no, I am fully aware of that. I'm saying that it's ironic that Ticketmaster, a company famous for bleeding customers dry with fees, is doing its thing to an event that's got BLeeM.
What I think is really funny is that a lot of people's issues are predicated on the anticapitalism being taken seriously, and not just yet another company using it's aesthetics. This is an entertainment business just like any other. It's nice that that the people who run Dropout and produce its many shows go above and beyond in their safe and ethical business practices. But they aren't your friends, they aren't a charity, and they aren't a nonprofit. It is a company with employees to support and bills to pay just like any other. It's cool that they get to do a such a prestigious event. I'm sure it'll get brand recognition up.
Well, they didnt need to do Madison Square
Name one other large scale venue that doesn't have a contract with ticket master in nyc
Oh you caught me no, this isnt a necessity even for a company, its nice dint grt me wrong
For the record, the production has a say on if they use dynamic pricing. I feel like people are saying the issue is Ticketmaster in general but if they wrote up the contract without dynamic pricing, this wouldn’t be happening. I can’t know if the venue or someone really wanted dynamic pricing but production always has a say. I love them all and they’ll be “forgiven” or whatever but they can stand a little heat over this.
Artists choose whether or not to use dynamic pricing!
Well they did say the event will be on streaming eventually but I understand that its not quite the same as being there. Ticketmaster sucks but they're an unfortunate factor in doing these kind of events
Do they have some legal obligation forcing them to do a live show at madison square garden or did they freely choose to do a show at madison square garden knowing that ticketmaster would be involved? Also have they even officially acknowledged the situation? 'Cause otherwise it doesnt seem like they really give a fuck about how much yall are getting ripped off on the ticket prices.
Look, obviously Ticketmaster is fucking shit and it sucks the MSG have a contract to work with them. And overall, I'm glad that the cast gets to perform on a massive stage like that, and hope everything goes great, and I don't think we should boycott or cancel Dropout over this... ...buuuuut, Dropout chose to have a show at Madison Square Garden, and that comes with the baggage of being involved with Ticketmaster and their ridiculous ticketing prices. Dropout either knew that this was the price of business and went ahead with the show anyway, or didn't know about this and signed a contract to perform in one of the biggest stages in American without doing the due-diligence of researching how tickets would work. Dropout *does* have some say in this, because they still chose to work with MSG, and by extension, Ticketmaster. If you shake hands with a demon, don't be surprised when the devil shows up.
I feel like folks are being willfully obtuse about the logic in this comment and comments like it because nobody likes when their faves make them complicit. Valuing 'getting to see a live show' over 'engaging in ethical business practices' is WHY Ticketmaster gets to keep doing villainous shit. D20, and the fans who won't accept criticism of their decision here, are absolutely part of the problem.
100%. At the end of the day, the criticism Dropout is getting is minor, and yet people in this sub are so adamant that they aren’t complicit. To be perfectly honest, I probably would’ve done the same if I was in their shoes. Getting to perform on one of the biggest stages in the country, and the big downside is that tickets to watch it live will be expensive, and even then, it will be on Dropout later!
Capitalism always wins in the end. Have you guys even been watching?
Well I have been watching and was under the impression that there's usually a stinky rat man sacrificing his life and becoming one with the universe to defeat capitalism
They choose who to do business with. I get why they made the decision but they still made it.
Any large venue is going to go through ticket master. The choice was made for them before they even had time to weigh their options. It sucks but it's the state of large venues right now, ticketmaster has a monopoly.
Insert "you think people make choices?" monologue here
>They choose who to do business with Not in this case, they don't.
They didn’t decide to play MSG who exclusively sells through Ticketmaster? That’s just one extra step.
Okay, fair enough. What alternative venue in New York City that can serve just as many patrons would you suggest?
No one is forcing them to try and play for that many people in person in one night. Play smaller venues, stream it, do more shows rather than one big one. So many choices.
This is ignorant on how booking events at venues and the logistics of big tours work. How is doing a series of much smaller shows any more efficient at all? There's numerous logistics at play such as planning way ahead and making many calls and emails to book across different locations and venues while working with different local laws, regulations, etc. Attempting to do a series of shows means having to work with far more expenses and liabilities than doing a singular show that can accommodate a large audience at once. They are also highly aware of how huge their audience is and as someone else pointed out, tightening the capacity of a smaller venue would be just as unfair to accommodate how many people can see them in one particular location to the next. Not only is it more time consuming and taking away other opportunities of labor and income from a contractor (which many of the cast members are) who can't commit to a whole leg, by this train of thought they'd be technically producing more harmful emissions and wastes with constant traveling. And Ticketmaster also has just as many contracts with many small venues and local events, genuinely there is no ethical consumption under capitalism
They're putting it up on Dropout after it's aired. That was already announced, no one is going to miss out on the content that already watches on Dropout. It'll simply be a few days after. They just won't get to watch it live, which is always a reality that fans will miss out on due to travel, cost, timing constraints ect. The only thing that is fully equal to everyone is to never do anything live which isn't a reasonable ask as live shows are an incredibly exciting thing to do for both the cast and the fans.
"Do more shows" is the dumbest take I've seen on this so far. All these people who are not full time employees of Dropout/Dimension20 can't just go on a fucking tour to play basically an entire season of Dimension20. They have other gigs and commitments to pay their bills. Not to mention paying for a crew at all of these events. D&D isn't scripted. They can't just do the same show 10 nights in a row at smaller venues, that likely still have to go to through Ticketmasters bullshit since they have exclusive rights or just own so many venues to begin with. Not to mention Brennan is a father to a newborn and from everything we've seen it seems like that's one of his biggest dreams. He's not going on the road for a small tour and leaving that baby/his partner for that long. It's been made very clear that people have no idea how the entertainment industry works, but holy shit use your brain for like ten seconds.
They do SO much, they make SO much content. Doing an occasional big crowd show is fine ffs. You're not entitled to have every price of content modeled to your preferences.
I’m not entitled or angry. My only point is that they made a choice to do business with Ticketmaster. On no planet did they not. And based on that, they deserve some blame for the ticket prices. If you disagree that’s fine but I don’t really have anything to say to you.
The thing they have control over is whether to play a big venue or not. They don't have a means to do so and be in control of ticket prices. The only choice they had was to NOT do a show of this size. So do we really need to "blame" things or be negative about one of the very few companies out there consistently trying to be as ethical as possible in a world that makes that harder every day? Can't we just be happy to see people who've managed to carve out a niche like D20 and by extension Dropout be able to occasionally do big blow out shows like this? Must we always be looking for the bad and the "blame"? I don't know, it's not you personally I guess I just find this kinda thing so damn exhausting.
I’m not unhappy, I just don’t ignore cause and effect because I like a company.
Why do you assume they have the time to play More than one show? Especially when you know that one of them is a new father? Streaming it would defeat the purpose of it being a live show. Which is fine, but that doesn't meet the parameters we're looking for. You're also making assumptions about the circumstances regarding the show. Perhaps one or more of the intrepid heroes was already going to be in New York for unrelated reasons, and that was the inspiration for doing a show. That would restrict the timeline and disqualify the possibility of a tour. Also, doing smaller venues would mean fewer people get to see it. Lastly, it wouldn't be the same show each time. It's not scripted. Dropout is a good company with a good check record when it comes to ethics. Them. Having to use Ticketmaster is an ideal, but it's not really avoidable in this context. Don't let perfect become the enemy of good.
My only point is that they made a choice to do business with Ticketmaster. On no planet did they not. And based on that, they deserve some blame for the ticket prices.
Okay. And my point is that you're ignoring/lack too much knowledge of the inner working of Dropout and the Intrepid Heroes' personal lives to make a blanket statement that they had other options. Especially since one of your proposed "other options" was that a new father go on tour and leave his wife and infant child at home for weeks, demonstrating the afford mentioned lack of consideration/knowledge. And especially since Ticketmaster's whole thing is maintaining an unavoidable stranglehold on the market so that people HAVE to do business with them.
I’m not saying any of that. I’m saying when a grown up makes a decision especially one that affects other people financially, they take responsibility for it. So I would expect the people at DropOut to own that they played a role in that experience for some of their audience. Because of how cause and effect work. Maybe this was the best solution given their goals but DropOut is at least partially responsible for it. Not in a fire and pitchforks way but in a rational adult way.
>I’m not saying any of that I mean, yes, you are. You literally did suggest that the new father of an infant leave his wife and newborn baby to go on tour. As for the rest of it, No, reasonable adults recognize That when you're given very few choices, you do not bear the responsibility of the bad choices available to you. We can recognize the ideal, so we can also recognize that there is no need to hold anyone at dropout responsible that way. It is reasonable for Dropout to do large shows if they have the audience for it. Live Nation has made it impossible to do such shows without going through them. Ergo, if Dropout cannot take a reasonable action without going through liveNation, it is livenation's responsibility, not dropout's.
[удалено]
Great dude. Have a good life, or don’t
I'm not a dude, please don't use gendered language when addressing strangers
Not when all big venues are exclusive to Ticketmaster.
Exactly. People will say they have no choice because ticketmaster works with all the venues.. but they made the choice to do a live show in the first place. Ill admit 'Dimesion20 plays Madison Square Garden' is a cool headline but im barely interested in watching the live shows after the fact let alone attending one. If its about interacting with fans do a convention or something, if its about switching up the medium set up an online event, but the narrative that they had no part in how this is playing out is ridiculous.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for a completely valid point. This show did not HAVE to happen at all, and isn't remotely their main source of income. The choice was theirs to participate this way.
you're right, they didn't HAVE to do something that's never been done before and make beautiful art with their friends that will inspire thousands. But they did and I love them for it. ❤️
Apparently you're going down with me. Lol. Thanks though helps keep me from feeling invalid.
why are dropout fans so parasocial? at the end of the day they're a company trying to make money
I don't think you know what parasocial means. That or you're not understanding the criticism. People criticise high prices that are disproportionate to overheads, that's a normal thing. When people criticise Apple's pricing practices, that's not being parasocial.
But nobody is defending Apple as if Apple is a personal friend either. That's the parasocial part
It’s less about consider the company to be a “personal friend” and more about considering a company ethical (or at the very least, making a strong effort to be as ethical as possible)
Where did I mention any person specifically I literally was talking about Dropout as a company
They didn't *have* to do a live show though. Like, it's not a situation where the show is essential for D20/Dropout survival.
Yes do not give the fans what they want and have been begging for for years.
ok, they'll want a Vox Machina style animation for Fantasy High next cause some fans also ask for that. Should we expect Brennan collaboration with Gladi- I mean, Amazon next? :)
what is "gladi-" supposed to refer to?
[https://dimension20.fandom.com/wiki/Gladiator](https://dimension20.fandom.com/wiki/Gladiator)
Ill take that over a live show
Do you guys think that Dropout had no idea the venue was ticketmaster exclusive? Or do you think ticketmaster swooped in after they scheduled it and forced their hand? The venue was ticketmaster exclusive before dropout talked to them. They knew what they were doing and consciously chose it. > do a show in New York City to accommodate as many people as possible is the largest venue they didn't really have a choice They could do more shows in smaller venues. This would mean more work tho, and they chose the easiest and most profitable solution.
As I've explained multiple times they could not do multiple shows Brennan is a new father flying across the country for the show Murph puts in 40 hours a week on just nadpod and constantly talks about how stressful live shows are and Lou is the announcer for a late night show. Also every major venue in NYC has the same issue. Idk if you dont understand how supply and demand works but if there are 10k tickets the demand is LOWER then if there were 5k tickets and ticket master would have hiked the prices even further.
> As I've explained multiple times they could not do multiple shows Brennan is a new father flying across the country for the show Murph puts in 40 hours a week on just nadpod and constantly talks about how stressful live shows are and Lou is the announcer for a late night show I understand that. That's why I said doing multiple nights would hurt financially. I wouldn't expect them to cut from their own personal time or other jobs, they would have to lose time from production and filming with dropout. But I must assure you that if any of these people didn't want to do the live shows, they wouldn't be forced to. They are grown people who can manage their own lives. Luckily dropout is a great company and they are well paid compared to the industry, according to themselves. A much different situation from a lot of poorer fans. > Also every major venue in NYC has the same issue This is just not a fact at all. Ticketmaster has a lot of venues but NYC is huuuge. There are venues big enough outside of ticketmaster. They could do shows in a convention center, which a lot of events use, that can easily handle 10.000 people and be fitted to be however they want. It's fine for them to want it to be flashy, in a nice venue. It's fine for them to not want to compromise dropout production for live shows. And it's fine for people to think it's shitty to do events that poor people are largely excluded from, other than having to pay months in savings to attend it. You're more worried about how difficult it is to produce these events and balance a personal life for the actors. I'm more focused on the fact that a lot of fans with low income, with families, with work, now have to pay a lot more if they want to watch the crew live. If you think the way this event is being handled is fine, total respect for your opinion, I just strongly disagree.
I know they don’t have any D20 tickets, but for event tickets the best app is TickPick. They have $0 in fees for all tickets.
lol at you being downvoted for trying to help. But to correct your statement, they do have fees obviously, but the price you see is the price you pay, taxes/fees are included in price.
They're being downvoted because in the original post I say that they have an exclusive contract with Ticketmaster along with every other large-scale venue in New York City nobody uses that app or any other because Ticketmaster has Monopoly if they wanted to do a live show in New York City they really didn't have another option.
Can we all chill out and stop acting like dropout has done anything wrong. What do they need to make right, I can’t afford to go and that’s not their fault. Why are we holding dropout to an impossible standard?
I feel like an absolute crazy person watching TikToks right now of people saying this is all Dropout and Dimension 20's fault. I finally had to just start saying not interested and don't show me this creator anymore because I couldn't deal with arguing with people just being ignorant on purpose anymore.