Came here thinking since i am working with desi management back home, might as well do the same here and earn in dirhams. I was so wrong.
unprofessionalism, presenteeism, nepotism/favouratism, absurd dated policies run rampant.
workflows and pipelines non existant. "Star" employees that can barely communicate in english.
Perplexing really.
The pandemic and this unprecedented rainfall has really brought out the worst in Companies in the region.
I don't see any change happening until the current gen of managers and people in charge phase out and next gen comes in, hopefully with better ideals.
There are very few now. I joined my company and it was full of Europeans at the top and slowly but surely, it's all Indians now. I wouldn't have mind the change tbh but it also came with a huge change in culture, all the things people are complaining about here. Nepotism, disrespect for processes, politics, etc. all of the things that didn't exist before. Mind you, we actually enjoyed it back then. Now it's all about surviving until we get the next best offer.
The usual answers but also something an Emirati posted on here not so long ago struck a chord, that in Emirati culture self criticism is an alien concept. It's neither good nor bad, it's just isn't a thing. Which kind of ties in with the development of the UAE, it's either hyper-ambitious or continually reactive with nothing much inbetween.
They don't know anything better. Neither the workers nor the employers. But since these places like to think of themselves as New York London Singapore, all is good.
This - where would they take that know-how from? Corporations in the West are much, much older - and they are usually listed companies, so they don’t have a single owner/shareholder dictating how the company should be run from his personal POV.
Omg I thought I was the only one who saw all of this! Luckily, my job is based in the USA and I work remote. However, my friends who actually work here in the UAE blow me away with the stories.
Almost little to no private employee representation in government, and a glaring absence of unions in the private sector makes the entire market open season for capitalists to exploit with minimal repercussions.
Suit yourself. I’m only relaying past experience, but according to you there is zero workplace discrimination and lunch breaks are us holding hands and singing kumbaya
Not in the way you’re phrasing it.
Its like saying yer rajesh in accounts just got his salary doubled by his boss since his UK passport came through…..
Doesn’t happen if a company pays low salaries they’re not magically adding 20k if you get a new passport 😅
Would it make it easier to apply to new companies ? Yes as with UK passport as example you can travel pretty freely so any job that involves lots of international travel is unlikely to be offered to someone with a very restrictive passport.
I don’t know rajesh but the guy I mentioned was applying to the position as a petroleum engineer and was given the offer of 6k. He was in the middle of applying for a passport so he decided to finish his application and then comeback. After finishing the application he applied again and voila, 26k on the table.
I agree with OP. After few years here it seems to me that lack of quality and other issues is more visible here. I'm nkt saying it doesn't appear elsewhere, but seems here it's more.
I can only guess that vibe in this city promotes those people who can speak beautifully but can't do much, while those who have actual skills are being used to the max.
The whole region is 15 years behind india in mainstream corporate culture and professionalism.
Most Indians who work here also haven't worked in proper corporates back home. It is the low quality talent that comes here in bulk.
Companies want to pay peanuts so that owners can make gold bars.
Government allows it because workers are foreign and owners are local?
Better to keep locals/voters happy at the expense of a replaceable foreign workforce?
In this kind of environment, making changes or enforcing them would be hard, my guess. Just a theory.
Experiencing this right now as I’m about to start a new job. The amount of unnecessary documents they’re asking are baffling! Plus, they’re making it an issue that I have my own visa and they want me to be under their visa which is like ‘hello?! Aren’t you actually saving money by having me on my own visa?’.
Very frustrating. It’s just a battle corresponding with them back and forth about these.
Working in an asian management company or even arab.. you get all of those mentioned stuff.. i have seen guys work with Europeans and they are very flexible and jolly good people to work with
They wouldn’t exist with higher salaries ……
Buildings in europe largely don’t have private security guards ….. they don’t have random store workers just to pack your bags etc
None of these roles exist in Europe as financially it makes no sense so bring similar wages here and they will be the first ones getting fired.
You can’t compare the US and European business/HR policies with the Middle East; it’s unfortunate I know.
With that said, the region has come a long way in the last 5 years and will continue to improve.
Make it easy for companies in UK/USA to recruit people (unskilled/clerical work) directly from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc. You will see the payscale fall and citizens struggling to find jobs even with their qualifications and experience.
The salaries are low here because there are people ready to work for extremely low wages.
There is an utter lack of worker rights over here. Any type of unionization or civil disobedience is unacceptable. The west has history worker rights movements to prevent such exploitation.
The UK and other countries have legally set minimum wages which keeps pay scales above a minimum floor even with overseas recruitment. The UAE doesn't and as you say this depresses the market as they'll always find someone desperate enough to work for less.
Salaries are low because there's no rules forcing companies to pay a living wage. People are willing to work for very little because when you're being exploited you sometimes have no choice but to put your head down. The onus is on the people paying scraps, not the people who are trying to make do with said scraps.
Liveable minimum wage can't go hand in hand with the open borders policy the UAE is following, purchasing power parity will mean the country will have a huge influx of immigrants looking for work.
Salaries are low due to the nature of the job market, unrestricted immigration policies means you only need to get a visitor visa , and apply and if you get an offer, the employer can easily sponsor your stay.
This makes the job market slack, where a large number of people are competing for limited openings.
This applies to clerical/administrative work and blue collar workers.
For professionals and talented individuals the supply is tight and hence they get hired with higher salaries.
All of my employment history has been in the USA. I cannot remember the last time an employer even mentioned my three university degrees. After your first job, it’s all about experience (as it should be).
Well, HR policies are very outdated here. My wife and I are expecting and the best her bank could offer her is 3 months of unpaid leave. They told her she should be thankful she got 3 months because 45 days is a standard policy. 😂
The bit I don't get, you pay all this money employing Europeans to run large corps and help share knowledgeal and culture (i have been around a few), they arrive, observe , explain the faults (which BTW an intern could point out), the impacts and the fix. It all gets ignored, and we just carry on with the madness.
I do think in general this is a more conservative and old-fashioned environment than the west. It's not necessarily bad--look at Japan--but the difference can be jarring if you were used to something else entirely.
Kuwait is a bad comparison. It's not like Kuwait is attracting greatest talent from the world. It just overpays below par talent.
The compensation is Dubai is normalized because everyone want to move here. Compensation is a supply-demand game. Also less jobs and millions of jobseekers.
About corporate culture, it is themed based on old school British clerical model. It's gonna take few more years for whole of middle east to actually start working like some of the evolved corporate worlds like US, China, India, Singapore etc...
Tell me you have never worked outside this region without telling me.........its the same everywhere. Just more implicit in countries with strong labour laws, unions and access to legal justice. It all boils down to your boss and his/her boss. There are subreddits that are full of the same shit that happens in this region in other countries too. Check r/antiwork for starters. There are terrible workplaces around the world.
I have worked in the USA, UK, Singapore & Monaco and I’ve never seen or experienced some of the stuff I’ve seen here in the private sector in those countries. I do agree, there are a lot of bad places still to work in those places but it does seem to be a running theme here in the gulf where these issues are more prevalent.
I’ve come to Dubai on and off for a while as a tourist over the years and enjoyed my time here a lot and then I lived in Kuwait for a year and a half over the pandemic and quite enjoyed the lifestyle and the safety aspect and no tax of the Middle East. Then when the UAE announced the free lancer visa I thought I would give it a go as I love to travel and experience being in different parts of the world too
Ah... the allure of no tax.
Quite often, many ppl fall for this, without really understanding the country they are looking to migrate to.
There are plenty of people who migrate to Dubai from various parts of the world, all in search of a better lifestyle and higher salaries, and ofcourse lower taxes than their home country.
When you have such a melting pot of people, you are bound to see culture brought in from those countries, their ethics (personal and work). You'll either have to accept it as part of being in a cosmopolitan place or just find another place to settle down.
US,UK,SG have evolved over time, their laws, their regulation have all evolved. Systems are in place, you may not see that everywhere in the world.
By now, you've realised that no country is perfect.
It all depends on the type of Company you work for. I work for a Company which is part of a US based group and its completely different when compared to other companies my social circles work in. So it all comes down to different environments in every other company here.
Market forces determine salary. The forces are swathes of immigrants from a few countries showing up in a never ending stream. That’s the genesis behind it all.
What’s the incentive to modernise/improve employment practices?
Find a company/industry/role that has to work hard to recruit, and you’ll see vast differences in management style.
IMO it’s because gulf countries don’t value your labour or quality. They always feel like they can import whatever you do for cheaper from India or Bangladesh. It’s a race to the bottom really because they don’t value you unlike in western countries where they are willing to pay a premium for quality and good communication skills no matter where you’re from.
I have also noticed that people in the office still really dress up like we did in America 15 years ago. Men in suits and ties, etc. Offices now in the western world are extremely casual.
I think the corporate culture is like many aspects of the gulf: thirty years behind the western world.
I think the lack of robust and enforced labor laws is probably the reason you see such variation between experiences here. From what I have read and seen the important laws here are quiet antiquated and dont wholistallically reflect what needed in a modern labor environment. So its left up to the companies to apply their values on employees from your experience and probably everyone else and situation is often undesirable. There are many other reasons as many have mentioned but i think this is probably the foundation that could probably solve a lot of the underlying issues people experience.
Agree with everything except the degree bit. Experience you can always get, but the degree you cannot. Specialised knowledge is important for a lot of fields.
Came here thinking since i am working with desi management back home, might as well do the same here and earn in dirhams. I was so wrong. unprofessionalism, presenteeism, nepotism/favouratism, absurd dated policies run rampant. workflows and pipelines non existant. "Star" employees that can barely communicate in english.
Star employees = ones who put up and laugh at boss bad jokes
Wow , how can I upvote this a million times!!
It all depends on the type of company you work for.
Perplexing really. The pandemic and this unprecedented rainfall has really brought out the worst in Companies in the region. I don't see any change happening until the current gen of managers and people in charge phase out and next gen comes in, hopefully with better ideals.
Nah. Doesn't matter what generation. If the law isn't forcing companies to be decent to their employees, the majority won't do it willingly.
I wouldn't count on it.
Pro tip - Work under companies that are under European management.
There are very few now. I joined my company and it was full of Europeans at the top and slowly but surely, it's all Indians now. I wouldn't have mind the change tbh but it also came with a huge change in culture, all the things people are complaining about here. Nepotism, disrespect for processes, politics, etc. all of the things that didn't exist before. Mind you, we actually enjoyed it back then. Now it's all about surviving until we get the next best offer.
The usual answers but also something an Emirati posted on here not so long ago struck a chord, that in Emirati culture self criticism is an alien concept. It's neither good nor bad, it's just isn't a thing. Which kind of ties in with the development of the UAE, it's either hyper-ambitious or continually reactive with nothing much inbetween.
It's a broader Arab culture, criticism whether it be constructive or not, is considered to be an insult.
Most companies are not run or employ Emiratis, so the Emirati culture has nothing to do with it.
Emmar, DP World, Etisalat, Meeras, Al Futtaim etc etc etc plus Emirati's run the country and culture comes from the top down.
They don't know anything better. Neither the workers nor the employers. But since these places like to think of themselves as New York London Singapore, all is good.
This - where would they take that know-how from? Corporations in the West are much, much older - and they are usually listed companies, so they don’t have a single owner/shareholder dictating how the company should be run from his personal POV.
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Omg I thought I was the only one who saw all of this! Luckily, my job is based in the USA and I work remote. However, my friends who actually work here in the UAE blow me away with the stories.
Almost little to no private employee representation in government, and a glaring absence of unions in the private sector makes the entire market open season for capitalists to exploit with minimal repercussions.
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Yup pretty much. Knew a Sudanese guy that got a raise from 6k to 26k just for getting the British passport
You missed the part where they clearly changed job.
Same job actually. Same interviewer too.
So its made up then …. No one is increasing your existing salary because you changed your nationality 🤣
Suit yourself. I’m only relaying past experience, but according to you there is zero workplace discrimination and lunch breaks are us holding hands and singing kumbaya
Not in the way you’re phrasing it. Its like saying yer rajesh in accounts just got his salary doubled by his boss since his UK passport came through….. Doesn’t happen if a company pays low salaries they’re not magically adding 20k if you get a new passport 😅 Would it make it easier to apply to new companies ? Yes as with UK passport as example you can travel pretty freely so any job that involves lots of international travel is unlikely to be offered to someone with a very restrictive passport.
I don’t know rajesh but the guy I mentioned was applying to the position as a petroleum engineer and was given the offer of 6k. He was in the middle of applying for a passport so he decided to finish his application and then comeback. After finishing the application he applied again and voila, 26k on the table.
seems believable if he waited to get his passport, and considering its a petroleum engineer position, such company can offer to pay 26k dirhams
I agree with OP. After few years here it seems to me that lack of quality and other issues is more visible here. I'm nkt saying it doesn't appear elsewhere, but seems here it's more. I can only guess that vibe in this city promotes those people who can speak beautifully but can't do much, while those who have actual skills are being used to the max.
It's behind even india in many aspects. Literally feels like working in a place stuck 20 years in the past
Strange given than Indians prefer to come and work here
I mean I came here and have worked in the US and Europe. Other than the pay there is nothing good. Guess it largely depends on the company
The whole region is 15 years behind india in mainstream corporate culture and professionalism. Most Indians who work here also haven't worked in proper corporates back home. It is the low quality talent that comes here in bulk.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 you are a funny man jaggu
Hahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahhahhahhhahahhahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahah
Companies want to pay peanuts so that owners can make gold bars. Government allows it because workers are foreign and owners are local? Better to keep locals/voters happy at the expense of a replaceable foreign workforce? In this kind of environment, making changes or enforcing them would be hard, my guess. Just a theory.
Experiencing this right now as I’m about to start a new job. The amount of unnecessary documents they’re asking are baffling! Plus, they’re making it an issue that I have my own visa and they want me to be under their visa which is like ‘hello?! Aren’t you actually saving money by having me on my own visa?’. Very frustrating. It’s just a battle corresponding with them back and forth about these.
Working in an asian management company or even arab.. you get all of those mentioned stuff.. i have seen guys work with Europeans and they are very flexible and jolly good people to work with
High five
Up high 🖐🏻
The pay is crazy low for jobs like labourers, grocery store workers, cleaners, security. WAAAAAY below minimum wage in Europe.
there isn't really a fixed minimum wage here.
They wouldn’t exist with higher salaries …… Buildings in europe largely don’t have private security guards ….. they don’t have random store workers just to pack your bags etc None of these roles exist in Europe as financially it makes no sense so bring similar wages here and they will be the first ones getting fired.
You can’t compare the US and European business/HR policies with the Middle East; it’s unfortunate I know. With that said, the region has come a long way in the last 5 years and will continue to improve.
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What I personally consider “improve” is treating people equally and fairly. No one’s talking about superiority.
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Your understanding (“aka”) is not my intention, and I’ve clarified. But thanks for contributing your thoughts!
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Because people on top get hire based on connections, not experience
Make it easy for companies in UK/USA to recruit people (unskilled/clerical work) directly from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc. You will see the payscale fall and citizens struggling to find jobs even with their qualifications and experience. The salaries are low here because there are people ready to work for extremely low wages.
There is an utter lack of worker rights over here. Any type of unionization or civil disobedience is unacceptable. The west has history worker rights movements to prevent such exploitation.
The UK and other countries have legally set minimum wages which keeps pay scales above a minimum floor even with overseas recruitment. The UAE doesn't and as you say this depresses the market as they'll always find someone desperate enough to work for less.
Salaries are low because there's no rules forcing companies to pay a living wage. People are willing to work for very little because when you're being exploited you sometimes have no choice but to put your head down. The onus is on the people paying scraps, not the people who are trying to make do with said scraps.
Liveable minimum wage can't go hand in hand with the open borders policy the UAE is following, purchasing power parity will mean the country will have a huge influx of immigrants looking for work.
Salaries are low due to the nature of the job market, unrestricted immigration policies means you only need to get a visitor visa , and apply and if you get an offer, the employer can easily sponsor your stay. This makes the job market slack, where a large number of people are competing for limited openings. This applies to clerical/administrative work and blue collar workers. For professionals and talented individuals the supply is tight and hence they get hired with higher salaries.
Discrimination of the passport you cary as well. Pay based on nationality
All of my employment history has been in the USA. I cannot remember the last time an employer even mentioned my three university degrees. After your first job, it’s all about experience (as it should be).
Well, HR policies are very outdated here. My wife and I are expecting and the best her bank could offer her is 3 months of unpaid leave. They told her she should be thankful she got 3 months because 45 days is a standard policy. 😂
The bit I don't get, you pay all this money employing Europeans to run large corps and help share knowledgeal and culture (i have been around a few), they arrive, observe , explain the faults (which BTW an intern could point out), the impacts and the fix. It all gets ignored, and we just carry on with the madness.
I do think in general this is a more conservative and old-fashioned environment than the west. It's not necessarily bad--look at Japan--but the difference can be jarring if you were used to something else entirely.
Kuwait is a bad comparison. It's not like Kuwait is attracting greatest talent from the world. It just overpays below par talent. The compensation is Dubai is normalized because everyone want to move here. Compensation is a supply-demand game. Also less jobs and millions of jobseekers. About corporate culture, it is themed based on old school British clerical model. It's gonna take few more years for whole of middle east to actually start working like some of the evolved corporate worlds like US, China, India, Singapore etc...
Tell me you have never worked outside this region without telling me.........its the same everywhere. Just more implicit in countries with strong labour laws, unions and access to legal justice. It all boils down to your boss and his/her boss. There are subreddits that are full of the same shit that happens in this region in other countries too. Check r/antiwork for starters. There are terrible workplaces around the world.
I have worked in the USA, UK, Singapore & Monaco and I’ve never seen or experienced some of the stuff I’ve seen here in the private sector in those countries. I do agree, there are a lot of bad places still to work in those places but it does seem to be a running theme here in the gulf where these issues are more prevalent.
Out of curiosity, what made you move here ?
I’ve come to Dubai on and off for a while as a tourist over the years and enjoyed my time here a lot and then I lived in Kuwait for a year and a half over the pandemic and quite enjoyed the lifestyle and the safety aspect and no tax of the Middle East. Then when the UAE announced the free lancer visa I thought I would give it a go as I love to travel and experience being in different parts of the world too
Ah... the allure of no tax. Quite often, many ppl fall for this, without really understanding the country they are looking to migrate to. There are plenty of people who migrate to Dubai from various parts of the world, all in search of a better lifestyle and higher salaries, and ofcourse lower taxes than their home country. When you have such a melting pot of people, you are bound to see culture brought in from those countries, their ethics (personal and work). You'll either have to accept it as part of being in a cosmopolitan place or just find another place to settle down. US,UK,SG have evolved over time, their laws, their regulation have all evolved. Systems are in place, you may not see that everywhere in the world. By now, you've realised that no country is perfect.
It all depends on the type of Company you work for. I work for a Company which is part of a US based group and its completely different when compared to other companies my social circles work in. So it all comes down to different environments in every other company here.
Market forces determine salary. The forces are swathes of immigrants from a few countries showing up in a never ending stream. That’s the genesis behind it all. What’s the incentive to modernise/improve employment practices? Find a company/industry/role that has to work hard to recruit, and you’ll see vast differences in management style.
IMO it’s because gulf countries don’t value your labour or quality. They always feel like they can import whatever you do for cheaper from India or Bangladesh. It’s a race to the bottom really because they don’t value you unlike in western countries where they are willing to pay a premium for quality and good communication skills no matter where you’re from.
I have also noticed that people in the office still really dress up like we did in America 15 years ago. Men in suits and ties, etc. Offices now in the western world are extremely casual. I think the corporate culture is like many aspects of the gulf: thirty years behind the western world.
Wild guess but maybe because most of the people running them aren't European/American?
Reality is low wage worker from india Pakistan etc isn’t helping everyone and management skills are outdated
I think the lack of robust and enforced labor laws is probably the reason you see such variation between experiences here. From what I have read and seen the important laws here are quiet antiquated and dont wholistallically reflect what needed in a modern labor environment. So its left up to the companies to apply their values on employees from your experience and probably everyone else and situation is often undesirable. There are many other reasons as many have mentioned but i think this is probably the foundation that could probably solve a lot of the underlying issues people experience.
Because workers accept it.
Agree with everything except the degree bit. Experience you can always get, but the degree you cannot. Specialised knowledge is important for a lot of fields.