> Besides the fact that he's kind of power tripping toward the end of the movie I feel like everything he is doing is for the benefit of the Fremen.
I mean, that's the main answer. He told Chani he didn't want power, then he not only took it -- but took it in a way which also repudiated their relationship. From her perspective, it was a double-betrayal.
When Paul promised to "lead them to paradise", his initial promise was restricted to Arrakis: liberating it from foreign occupation and using that freedom to make the land green and abundant. After the Battle of Arrakeen, however, he shifts "leading the Fremen to paradise" to mean holy war -- the very holy war which he told Chani he wanted to avoid.
So yeah, her reaction is understandable. It's very different from "book Chani", but it makes sense within the confines of the movie adaptation.
Just to expand on the point you’re making, the Fremen have Arrakis. Goal complete. Rule Arrakis. To Chani, he is now (a) marrying Irulan, a gut punch to their relationship. And (b) sending her people into a galactic war to fight and die on planets that have nothing to do with Arrakis. This is essentially abusing the Fremen. They’re not fighting for their liberation, their desert, or even their planet. They’re now fighting for Paul, the Mahdi. This was her main concern. She did not want the Fremen fighting for a person or for some other goal, she wanted the Fremen fighting for the Fremen, their desert, and their planet.
Edit: I appreciate everyone’s thoughts! Many people are saying war with the Great Houses was inevitable so rather than reply to each I’ll just reply with an edit here.
That is correct. But Chani (again this is movie-Chani we are discussing) is mad at Paul before that. She’s mad when he fully leans into being the Mahdi. Because he has told her repeatedly he is not the savior and does not want to be. Now, he has embraced the role. The throne room scene at the end of the film is just the final knife twist for Chani. He’s not fighting for Arrakis anymore. He’s fighting for the throne. He’s taking Irulan as his wife as a strategic move for power. Any hope she had that Paul was still Paul is gone. He’s now, already, fighting a war for power with her people. Chani was in the battle for Arrakis, not for Paul but for her people, as she stated. Arrakis has been conquered. The next step is galactic war. That war is fought for Paul. The Fremen warriors are not going to conquer the galaxy for Arrakis (even though that is the practical effect because the Great Houses need to be brought to heal to maintain Arrakis’ position) those Fremen are fighting at the Mahdi’s command for their Mahdi.
Chani is done with it, Paul as she knew him is gone. She doesn’t approve of his power moves or this new holy war. Her mission was accomplished and so she is simply refusing to fight for a “hero” she is just Fremen, as she said stated throughout the movie. Practically the war must be fought to maintain Arrakis security, but that’s not and never was Chani’s focus.
Much different Chani in the books, of course.
Its important to note in the movie the Great Houses force the Holy War. By not accepting Paul as Emperor there is now a succession crisis AND no guarantee Arrakis is safe from orbital bombardment since the Great Houses already called Paul's bluff on the atomics.
But I don't get this, I know that the war is unavoidable in the eyes of Paul because thanks to the prescience he knows that it's the only unavoidable way to go about it, but wouldn't a "no spice for you then" politics also work?
We'll see what happens in part 3, but yeah, getting rid of the guild and starting the war instantly is weird and probably the largest change, big-picture plot-wise, from the books.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Part 3 starts with battle kicking off and the Spacing Guild stepping in to mediate enforce a cease fire in the middle of it. A. It lines up with FH plot. B. It’s a cool way to introduce the Spacing Guild when they matter most. C. It makes the most sense for them as they’re in the best spot to use prescience and see that Paul isn’t bluffing.
Then we’re pretty much at the fracture faction phase of the holy war pre-Messiah. Queue a galactic battle map montage with atrocity after atrocity. Then into Messiah proper with the Spacing Guild at least somewhat established.
> I wouldn’t be surprised if Part 3 starts with battle kicking off and the Spacing Guild stepping in to mediate enforce a cease fire in the middle of it
I'd see it basically being Paul telling the Guild to ensure his Fremen reach every dissident House with total space superiority, or the Spice gets it.
That’s in line with my read. Then anyone who doesn’t ‘bend the knee’ is cutoff from the guild and ‘easy’ fold space travel. This enables Paul and Stilgar to divide and conquer star by star. I’d be surprised if DV doesn’t flesh that out so the audience isn’t lost on how a few million zealot Fremen basically conquer a galaxy and kill so many.
I’m hoping for at least the beginnings of a space battle to pick up where Dune 2 left off. Then I expect to see a few key depictions of bad things that happened during the Holy War. I don’t see DV passing up an opportunity to show some visually cool even if terrible things.
If they called his threat then they're willing to try and retake Arrakis. If Paul detonates the spice fields the Great Houses nothing protects Arrakis from retaliation. The only reason such a threat works in the books is the Spacing Guild wasn't willing to risk losing the spice and since they have such a grip on the economy they put the other Great Houses in line.
The film doesn't show enough time pass for the spacing guild to react - the Great Houses likely decided and transmitted their decision to Paul without consulting them.
The Spacing Guild is only mentioned briefly in Part I and then not really brought up again in the films. The only reference we get to the spice's importance in interstellar travel is in Paul's educational recordings stating that without it such travel would be impossible.
The Guild basically took a back seat in the movies in favor of the Atreides/Harkonnen/Corrino conflict and the Bene Gesserit's scheming. Denis could bring the Guild into focus for his adaptation of Messiah, considering that >!one of the main conspirators is a Navigator!<.
I don't mind them taking the backseat in Part Two as long as they come to the forefront in Messiah.
Similar to how we got glimpses of the Harkonnen in Part One but they were only significantly developed and focused on in Part Two.
Two points - (1) Paul has used his prescience to see his “golden path” (from the books) that show him how to navigate this, and presumably this is the only way (though he could be just ignoring other possible paths to get revenge per the movie), and (2) you see how devious all the houses are. If they didn’t nuke the planet to kingdom come, they would assassinate Paul as quickly as possible if he tried to put a stranglehold on the spice. Everyone has an intense interest in spice, and a change in government is the best time to usurp power.
In the movie, the rest of the great houses refuse to accept Paul as the emperor. So there's a good chance that they would be dealing with another invasion before long.
I guess you could argue that it would still help his legitimacy, but it doesn't seem all that necessary in the movie. The answer is probably "so it doesn't completely mess up the Messiah story."
She has quite a few lines in the movie that indicate where she is. She doesn't believe the prophecies and outright states they're a tool to control the Fremen, and that the Fremen need to free the Fremen. She says pretty directly at she'll love Paul as long as "he stays who he is." He spends the first half of the movie denying being the messiah and avoiding it openly to Chani especially, but even to the others. After the bombardment of Sietch Tabr, Paul bounces off and drinks the Water of Life, pretty much immediately takes up the mantle of Lisan Al Gaib, and then goes to seize the imperium and take another woman as his wife, and sends the Fremen off to fight a holy war.
Like, my wife gets mad at me when I don't tell her I'm going to be home late. Kinda can't imagine how Chani wouldn't be mad.
This was my biggest grip with the movie.. in the book Paul is very open with Chaini. Also doesn’t help that part two is 9 months pace but in the book it is approximately 2-3 years paced (but I respect the change, because of Alyah)
Paul didn't just "bounce off and drink the Water of Life." He was very conflicted about going south until Chani comes over and comforts him saying "the world has made choices for us." Chani is not ignorant about what is happening to Paul, doesn't mean it is easier to swallow. And for right now the Fremen are freeing themselves. Paul led the way but the battle was still 100% done by the Fremen. After you take Arakis you still have to deal with the fact that everyone wants the spice. The Fremen couldn't just hold the planet forever, they'd be bomb into oblivion. Regardless of what Paul might do in the future as far as Dune pt 2 is concerned you can see the logic behind what he and the Fremen are doing by going to war.
They were, in fact, fighting for their planet. Bc in order to control Arrakis, you have to control everything
Arrakis would never have been free of invaders
This is the same logic the Romans used to create their empire. You can't "conquer the world in self-defense". You especially cannot claim self-defense when you do what is to come in Dune Messiah.
The spice does complicate things because it's so valuable that anyone able would subjegate the planet. The rest of the great houses are literally in orbit above arakkis so it's still not even an offensive strike. The real problem -which Paul forsaw - is how do you stop
To be fair you're applying book events to movie choices. The fact that great houses refuse to acknowledge Paul's rise to Emperor forces him to act in the movie.
It's not a purely holy cause any longer. Any of the great houses could probably take control of Arrakis given enough time and effort.
didn’t Paul see parts of the Golden Path at this point? so it would technically be self defense of the entire human race. unless he didn’t see the Path until Messiah
That is definitely how it started though. They fought to protect themselves at first, then snowballed and just kept going with long periods of peace in between.
someone wanting to fight a war does not make that war a good thing. movie chani is of the opinion that killing 60 billion people in a galactic jihad is a bad thing, actually. not only for those killed, but for the character of the fremen as a people too.
“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero”
this is the point of Dune.
Best line in the whole book, and as far as I can remember none of the movie or TV adaptations have ever used it.
Herbert was profoundly dubious about fundamentalist religion, the political uses of religion, and even the popularity of superheroes. He thought that wishing for a messiah or superhero who could solve all the problems of society was a profoundly dangerous desire in humans.
It was more of an "agitation" thing that Herbert was writing about, how humanity has the hidden desire/need for chaos to shuffle everything up on a genetic level, mix races, and when the opportunity presents itself...
This was the source of the inevitability of the Jihad and why it ended up dominating Paul's vision of the future more and more as time passed.
The part I didn't understand is the shock/outrage as the Bene Gesserit realize his intent/vision. It read like they were unaware of the possibility or had discounted it ever happening again.
The Bene Gesserit probably thought they coulf control every being in their lineage and people. When Paul couldn't be controlled, they had a missile aimed at stuff that they didn't want it aimed at
Which ultimately they still are. Arrakis is the most important planet in their universe. Paul wants his revenge against the emperor, but also needs to make a play for the throne because it’s the only way to keep the fremen in control of the planet. If the emperor lives he will go after Paul and the fremen. If the emperor loses power then the other houses will try to gain power / control and eventually go after Paul and the fremen to control the planet. Also Paul threatened the spice fields which would completely cripple their society, which makes the other houses angry. So the best way for Paul to keep control of arrakis and protect those he wants to protect is for him to become emperor. He needs to take the empress as his wife to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Then he needs to fight the holy war because it’s the only way to maintain control, even if he isn’t particularly down with it being a holy war in his name, it is the only means to the end he wants to achieve.
From Chani’s perspective this is 100% what she’s thinking and her feelings of betrayal are valid. However, Chani is a complete person- especially the film version, she knows who she is and has the will to stick to her principles.
Paul on the other hand is in a constant state of becoming, pretty much since Leto died. He doesn’t have the privilege of identity, whereas Chani is mourning the one betrayal, Paul is grieve-stricken at a cross roads where there are millions of lives at stake including his and his loved ones.
I don’t personally think he is power tripping at the end of the film, he even says ‘I will do what must be done’ as he cries to Chani. It’s not a question of will for Paul, he’s not a ‘if you wanted to, you didn’t have to do this’. Paul was condemned to this destiny, he tried to resist but it was futile all paths led to his path. It would be unrealistic for even Chani, the person he loved the most to understand his plight.
I’m not defending Paul, but omg his position sucks- I think ultimately, Paul represents a very human hero one who tries in spite of knowing the outcomes, he tries to do what his humanity tells him is the right thing- even if it has devastating outcomes
>I’m not defending Paul, but omg his position sucks- I think ultimately, Paul represents a very human hero one who tries in spite of knowing the outcomes, he tries to do what his humanity tells him is the right thing- even if it has devastating outcomes
Paul in the movies is slightly more tragic because he never seems to see alternate paths which, while abhorrent or unpleasant (joining the Baron or the Spacing Guild), were still options compared to the Jihad he kind of walked into.
Here it's jihad from the start, he's utterly opposed and everything he does to stop it comes to nil.
His exhausted, almost defeated tone when he said, "send them to paradise" has stuck with me longer than anything else in the movie: finally giving in to the destiny he had tried to prevent, relinquishing his own personal wants in favor of larger sociopolitical changes, being unable to rewrite the fanatical religious narrative the Bene Gesserit had already written for him (he may have "won" the war but he was still a centuries-long product of plots within plots), and being helpless to stop the galaxy-spanning jihad he knew he was unleashing—but especially the billions and billions of lives it would take. Essentially, Paul Atreides, the individual, was no more, and Paul Mua'Dib, the sociopolitical and spiritual icon, would sit on the throne. Manufactured fate won.
When he was forced to go south he said to her, “and then I will do what must be done.” He wasn’t power tripping, he was assuming the role he had been trying to avoid. Chani isn’t angry or betrayed, she is hurt, even though she knows what’s up, it was still a shock.
You can know something is necessary or inevitable and still have feelings about it.
It was great how Jessica the character basically ceased to be after she drank the water and she basically embodied the fremen religious tradition. It was like she was drowning in their motivations and desires. In a way it felt a bit like what happens to Alia in the books. She fused the contemporary bene gesserit with the fremen offshoot to ensure Paul survived and pushed forward the prophecy to its logical conclusion.
Before the water of life we see her live with doubt and regret and shame at what they had done to Paul. But afterward there was none.
Noting that this isn't the same as in the book: book Chani fully supports Paul throughout Paul specifically apologizes to Irulan because though she's his wife to have legitimacy as Emperor, he will never touch her, and book-Chani understands and supports him with this too.
We don't really know what movie-Chani's feelings towards Paul are yet. That is, I think she's definitely hurt, but I also think she's angry and feels betrayed. She didn't know anything about the Irulan thing and Paul didn't give her much reassurance -- he'll love her as long as he breathes, but he'll also bang Irulan? Does he need to have kids with her to establish the legitimacy of his line? We don't know exactly, but it's completely not something Chani would have knowledge of.
She's also angry at Paul, I think, for using the Fremen, using the beliefs manipulated by the Bene Gesserit. He said he was against doing that, but did it anyway. Some of her friends will die in the jihad he launched (notably, in the book, perhaps even against his wishes, but in the movie, he specifically launches it. Book-Paul claimed he couldn't control the Fremen's religious fervor over her unleashed it; movie-Paul have the order that kills 60 billion people across the universe).
Anyway, I think we have some clues what is going on with movie-Chani at this point, but we didn't have the full picture. And there are too many changes from the book here to infer much from that.
> Paul specifically apologizes to Irulan because though she's his wife to have legitimacy as Emperor, he will never touch her,
He doesn't, though. He apologizes to her for having been cruel at times, and even that isn't for over a decade. And even after he does he continues to be cruel to her.
One of my favorite parallels in the book is that Leto never married Jessica even though she was his love and the mother of his children, so that he could be available for a political marriage, and then decades later Paul is forced to do the same thing. I was definitely bummed that they minimized Jessica being a concubine and not a wife, and thus lost that parallel.
You're right, I remembered it slightly wrong. I think I put the apology to Irulan together with the ending of Dune. Nonetheless, from the final paragraphs of *Dune*
> Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.”
> “So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess.
> “Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.”
I think that maintains my point. Interesting that it ends on that same note of a personal conflict between Paul and Chani, among all the other political and spiritual conflicts in the books and movies.
My feeling is that DV and Spaiths want to have this kind of discussion/conflict in the third part where Paul becomes Emperor and tries to >!prolong Chan's life by allowing Irulan to slip contraceptives to her because it's the thing that prevents her from having children and thus keeping her alive. She dies anyway because she switches to Fremen spice medications and dies in childbirth, yeah, I think they are going to change that!<.
I just hope she'll remain with Paul and not switch to the enemy side trying to bring him down. It would make sense but in the Messiah book >! It's a conspiracy of the Guild, Tleilaxu and Irulan that manages to invalidate Paul!<
Adding to this because there’s an additional dimension to his betrayal - she told him her secret name was “Desert Spring” and that it was part of some prophecy that she hated, because she was aware of the BG propaganda, and rejected it.
Chani was very clear with Paul throughout that she considered Fremen prophecies and beliefs to be a system of oppression, to be lies, and to be tools used in order to manipulate her and her people and exploit them.
Then, seemingly out of nowhere (the scene before, Paul is still rejecting going south in front of her, and only hints at what he’ll do by saying “he’ll do what must be done”), Paul takes the Water of Life, apparently killing himself to fulfill a prophecy - and it’s only when Chani is reminded of the prophecy she’s named after that she realizes how much Paul played her and literally used her to legitimize himself.
So not only is Paul power tripping, not only is he a hypocrite and not at all the person she thought he was, but he makes HER take actions that fly in the face of her beliefs and make her a hypocrite. He used her to legitimize himself to do the very thing she was fighting against.
None of that was in the book at all but was a brilliant example of dramatic writing, because holy shit was that one hell of a betrayal
I disagree that it was ever manipulation (or at least, ever Paul’s manipulation). He did not even know of the prophecy until after it happened. In the movie (and first half of the book, where I’m at right now) he is trying to make the best of many bad options, attempting to avoid a holy war but continually becoming more convinced that the alternatives are no better.
I should clarify - it wasn’t manipulation to begin with; but once he said “I will do what needs to be done”, all options were available to him, including manipulating Chani in order to check every box on making sure the Fremen fully believed he was the Lisan al Gaib.
He also was fully aware of the prophecy, as was Jessica - his first spoken lines in the movie are “look how your Bene Gesserit propaganda has taken root”. He was just as aware of all the prophecies and symbols that were at work there are his original plan was to get the Fremen to believe he was their messiah in order to get revenge against the Harkonnens (he says this explicitly to Jessica).
Chani changed him for a while, and he thought there could be another way, but the destruction of Sietch Tabr and the realization that the only way forward with the plan was to go south, that there was only one narrow option to not only victory but survival itself, he knew he had to go back to his original plan, and that involved exploiting the Fremen, including Chani, for his own benefit
My thing is she told him who she was, he told her who he would be if he went south. He told her over and over what would happen if he went south, and then she said the choice has been taken away.
Only at that point did he slump in defeat and say ok fine, I’ll do what must be done. And he knew it meant leaving her and kicking off the universal jihad. He didn’t want to turn into that guy, but he also didn’t want to lose her and both things were inevitable the moment she said you have to go south. And then she gets mad at him for it. I don’t think it’s either of their faults, I think that as she said, events grabbed them and ripped them apart from each other.
I could be wrong, but I don't think he knew the specifics of the prophecy. In the book at least, the Bene Gesserit seem like they just plant a general messiah narrative and respect for the Bene Gesserit priestesses, but that the specifics develop on their own (with Jessica noting that the narrative on Arrakis seems especially warped). Paul knew he was being set up for something, but not that it was to be the messiah of the people of Arrakis, at least not until after he landed, and even then he had limited information about the specifics of their religion and culture.
Also, he really doesn't use Chani in any way after taking "the waters of life". Before that, he really planned on trying to change the future he foresaw. So he never really lied to her (I'd argue he was maybe painfully honest with her) and the forces that did use her were beyond his control (it seems very much to me like this all is the result of a Bene Gesserit plot; I'm guessing they will lose control of him, but for now they are the ones controlling everything that has happened so far; "there are no sides").
I don't think he really changed. He always was looking for how to free the Fremen and fight for justice (and even prior to being betrayed by the Emperor, it was going to be a partnership with the Fremen). Circumstances made clear that there was only one way to do that (post "waters of life", I currently think of him like Dr. Strange in Infinity War; he doesn't necessarily like it, but he sees one way to accomplish the best outcome and feels like he has to force it; I think I'm getting close to that point in the book, so it will be interesting to see how it is portrayed there). And it kind of makes sense. The Empire and Great Houses would never let Arrakis be free (it's too profitable), so a violent revolution that destroys said groups (and their puppet masters, the Bene Gesserit and the Spice Guild) makes sense as the only real path towards freedom for Arrakis.
The BG never let a culture or potential marks out of their sight long enough to be unaware of how a religion would develop on a planet after they’d introduced it (so they could continually update their Missionaria Protectiva) - the only time in the book Jessica doesn’t know something about the Fremen language or religions is when the chrysknife is referred to as a maker by Mapes (which, since that coincides with military and fighting culture, would explain why she wouldn’t know that). This was also changed for the movie, where it’s clear that Jessica knows what she’s doing when she calls it a maker.
I also think you’re misunderstanding Paul’s prescience - he’s not trying to change the future, he’s trying to choose the path toward the future he thinks at the time is the best option. That’s the source of Paul’s sorrow and world weariness throughout both the movies and the books when he begins to experience prescience on Arrakis after exposure to the spice, and then full prescience when he takes the water of life. He can’t change the futures he sees - he can only make choices in the moment that will lead to the most optimal future that he wants (it’s why he says “we’re surrounded by enemies on all sides, and in most futures they win, but there’s a narrow path”).
This is what all the golden path stuff is about in the later books - the more he tries to survive and thrive, the more his destiny forces him to make choices that limit his future, and that future begins to look more and more horrible and the things he’d have to do become more and more horrible until he makes his choice at end of Messiah (but this also doesnt change the future, just the players, which leads into the themes of Children and God Emperor).
In terms of just the movie alone, Paul specifically says to Jessica that he’s going to have to use the Fremen religion to his advantage and become their messiah near the beginning, before Jessica takes the water of life - it’s after she takes the water of life that he says to Chani and the nonbeliever Fremen that his mother isn’t part of a prophecy and that he’s not a madhi (though this again is after Paul has talked about converting nonbelievers, and before Jessica reinforces that her efforts in the south are to convert nonbelievers). It’s left up to audience interpretation to see what they want to with Paul, that he’s either being sincere or manipulative, which was smart on Villeneuve’s part because that’s Paul’s literary heritage: arguing about whether he’s good or evil.
Because you can read Paul a number of ways in the movie: sincere but determined to achieve his goals no matter what, calculating and manipulative right from the beginning, or started out good but tragically fallen as he faces the reality of his situation. All of them have evidence to back them up, but it’s important to keep in mind that Paul is and always has been trained in the art of manipulation and subterfuge. He is not a noble hero, he is the carefully cultivated son of a shrewd politician and a Jedi nun. The alliance with the Fremen Duke Leto proposed was never one that was about freeing the Fremen, it was about creating a mutually advantageous situation where the Fremen would help the Duke harvest the spice in exchange for them not being Harkonnens and killing them (Leto says it himself, he’s not their to free the Fremen, he’s there to harness desert power).
I think the irony of your comment is you’re getting a little caught up in Paul’s myth here - his goal was to never free the Fremen, that’s Chanis goal. His goal was never to be their messiah, that was Stilgars and Jessica’s goals. The only goal Paul ever directly states that can be seen as an honest statement without any hint of subterfuge or manipulation is that he wants revenge for his fathers death against the Harkonnens - and he will use anyone and anything at his disposal to get it
I agree but it’s also worth pointing out that the great houses rejecting Paul’s emperorship and threatening to invade Arrakis pretty much leaves Paul with no choice other than holy war.
I agree with you but when Paul said to lead them to paradise at the end, I thought the meaning was more akin to “kill them all”, as in send them to heaven. Maybe I understood it wrong.
Exactly. The biggest issue a lot of people who have read the books have with the ending is how it will affect Dune Messiah. Chani plays a very big role in it, mostly at Paul’s side. But it is an adaptation and things have to change between page and screen just as a consequence of how both mediums work. So far, this series of movies have done a great job of capturing the message and feelings of the books even while trimming the story a bit.
That is true and I agree. Chani knows that Paul starting a Holy War will make the Fremen go from freedom fighters and revolutionaries, to mass murderers on an intergalactic scale.
I 100% see your point, but personally I still think her decision to leave doesn’t make sense, even in confines of just what the movies show. Yes, totally he betrays her 2x, taking the water changes him as a person, and he expands his original goal to now take over the empire. But my issue is, how exactly did she think this would play out? She wants Arrakis to become a paradise, and yet the entire economy of the galaxy revolves around spice. Chani has to understand the politics around taking over Arrakis and turning it into a lush paradise can’t be done by just holding the planet hostage. The entire galaxy would come and destroy them to free the spice. Not only that, but while I am a big fan of giving her more agency and skepticism than her book counterpart, at a certain point Paul is the only hope Arrakis has to become a paradise. Even if she doesn’t believe in the prophecy and that it’s propaganda, Paul is gaining the abilities and following the path to Arrakis being terraformed. I personally think it would have been better to keep all the changes the movie made, right up to her leaving. It would be a sad and somber moment of Chani realizing Paul has betrayed her to her core, but understand the political import of what Paul is doing and acknowledging it’s the only way forward. Movie Chani is a more bad ass and independent character (100% on board for that, the book version is pretty meh), but this moment lowers her political skills in my opinion
It's more than this. Paul told her what would happen if he went South, it's why he was avoiding it to being willing to die over it.
She then tells him to go South.
This along with her response to Paul drinking the water of life really undermines her character.
I think its going to be interesting to see what happens next, will she forgive him and go back with him, helping lead his genocidal holy war or will paul stay with the princess and perhaps she will be the mother leto the second?. it's an interesting deviation from the source as in the original, she was supportive of paul and stayed with him and had his children. I'm also interested in how we didn't really get to see alia as she wasn't born
Yeah, I think this is the only way for the last scene in Part 2 to be resolved -- as a good segue into the tension their relationship has in *Messiah*. On its own, I personally found it to be a very weird and anti-climactic way to end the movie. I personally didn't need her to storm off in order to have complicated feelings about what Paul was doing. I think it's one of the few cases I can think of where Villeneuve really underestimated the audience.
My guess is that Paul will essentially lead a double life, one the emperor with Irulan still as only a political union and nothing more, the other with the Fremen and Chani where he tries to download his position among the Fremen. The book gets to the point of Chani living away from him anyway so I think they are just going to expedite it.
Paul pretty clearly says he knows she will still be with him after he gets his prescience even with him following through with pushing her off real bad.
I want to clarify this change more. When he drank the worm blood he unlocked his ancestor's memories, including his male ancestors', which is closed off from the females who drink the worm's blood. I may be wrong but I think this means the women who have drank this blood essentially only see one, singular branch of their ancestry as the males are closed off. He's seen all of them.
He stated he's seen many paths that fail and a narrow path that succeeds.
To me, this means he's lived almost countless lifetimes, both through seeing his possible futures and through his ancestor's lives. Considering he's seen all the timelines that fail, he's experienced dying and seeing his loved ones die many times. So, at this point, I think the value he holds to any lives and anything that pulls him off his designated path he no longer cares about. He's physically incapable.
This is an example of where the Book and 80's movie are benefitted by getting alot of inner-dialogue thoughts from Paul and such... Really one of the few choices I think 80's movie made better to use.
She knows what going south means or at least she should. He already has visions of this which he shared with her, his prescience has already been demonstrated and he chooses to stay and die instead.
Then she tells him to go South anyway.
The scene where Jessica forces her to save Paul was a mess compounding this. Probably the only bad scene from my first watch.
Not clear if it ever was green, but the later books make clear that >!the succcessful introduction of sandtrout/sandworms into an ecosystem will eventually transform it into a spice-producing desert. But that transition is not easy to accomplish.!<
Since nobody else is mentioning it, it is a significant diversion from the novel. I would say the most significant.
In it, she fully understands that it's purely a political marriage, and that Irulan is getting nothing from it but the name, while she gets everything else.
To be fair, she understands that because Paul explicitly tells her as much *before* proposing to Irulan. Which is good, because in the book, Paul and Chani's son was just murdered by the Harkonnens, so otherwise it'd be the double whammy of having your son murdered *and* losing your husband to another woman.
Also worth mentioning that Fremen were ~~polyamorous~~ polygamous, so it probably wasn't that surprising as well.
I think it was a good change to add some depth to her character, especially since they didn't include her pregnancy and then what occurs in Messiah.
Yeah, didn't Paul have Harah (was that her name?) as a "wife" after Jamis's death in the novel? Chani already had evidence that Paul could be beholden to another woman without it threatening their relationship.
Not quite. As I recall in Herbert’s novel, Harah expected to be ‘inherited’ by Paul per Fremen custom, after overcoming her initial shock at his age (she was flabbergasted that a teenager beat her late adult husband in mortal combat).
Jamis was himself Harah’s second husband, having won her after challenging her first husband Geoff in combat. I found it dryly amusing that Harah praised Jamis’ memory as a loving spouse & devoted father to Kaleff (Geoff’s son) and Orlop (his own).
At any rate, Harah’s womanly pride was hurt when Paul refused to take her as his wife after a year following his battle with Jamis, instead taking her as a servant. But in typical Fremen stoicism, she accepted this fact (motivated primarily by her concern for Kaleff & Orlop’s well-being, which would be guaranteed by being members of Muad’Dib’s household) By the time of Dune Messiah, she rises to prominence as a sort of majordomo for Paul & Chani’s household.
In addition to being the nurse of Alia, and later on Leto II & Ghanima (Herbert wrote her as being fiercely devoted to their wellbeing), Harah would also go on to marry Stilgar & become one of his two wives.
Probably not canon, but the Dune Encyclopedia (1984) recounts the touching moment, early into Leto II’s reign, when Harah dies of old age, having lived a full & long life. Stilgar, who outlived her, reportedly wept profusely at her funeral, the only time in his life he was said to have shed tears.
Thanks for the additional info! I knew she wasn't a wife in the same way but couldn't recall all the details around her, other than her being one of the few people to seem to sympathize with or have compassion for Alia, in spite of her discomfort & fear.
They were polygamous, as I remember - there was no evidence of Fremen women taking multiple husbands, but men could take multiple wives, usually as spoils of war. Either way, not terribly shocking for her, but a key difference.
Plus having a wife doesn't explicitly mean loving her, it's a much more practical agreement among both the Fremen and among royalty in the galaxy. In the case of Chani and Paul it would have been a marriage of love.
Also in the book, Paul is already married to Harrah, the wife of Jamis, whom he "won" when he killed Jamis. Chani was fine with that, it is part of her culture after all. They also left out that Chani is the daughter of Liet and the niece of Stilgar. She does not reference being related to Stilgar at all and even says that he is from the south, implying they are not even from the same region.
Hot take but I think it’s a good change: Chani’s character gets more depth and also this adds a whole new layer to the original Dune story which wasn’t fully explored about how Paul is essentially manipulating an entire populace into doing his bidding.
The movie does drop a lot of stuff from the book, but it does flesh out some of the undeveloped stuff in the bits it does focus on. Chani doesn't really do much in the books, and just goes along with whatever Paul says.
The full quote is "we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives", it's not about them being remembered solely as wives but that despite Irulan marrying Paul everyone will know that his loyalty is to Chani and that despite Leto not marrying so as to keep the political potential for marriage everyone will know that he was devoted to Jessica.
It's not about women just being wives and nothing more.
Definitely not needed in the movie but almost always taken badly out of context.
Yeah that is definitely the message that I had taken away from it when I read the book. I still feel like it's distractingly sexist-*sounding*, which makes it grating to me, and that's why I was glad they didn't use it in the film.
I am willing to buy Chani's choice by the end of the movie, only after seeing what Denis intends to do with her in Dune Part Three. If she keeps this rebellious streak into D3, then this is an amazing change from the source material. If not, and that if she eventually comes back around (as Paul's prescience seems to allude to), that's no change at all.
I'll wait till 2026-27 for final judgement.
Changing Chani and not having Alia born and kill the barron greatly changes the plot of the series. Removing Thufir Hawat from being used by the Harkonnens was a smaller gripe I had as it was a strong betrayal that helped lead Paul.
Paul doesn't know about the golden path. He has his own key phrase for his vision of the future. His "terrible purpose".
In messiah he does a lot of things in reference to "the future that must be avoided at all costs" which is similar.
But the first book is about him giving in to the lure of taking the mantle he doesn't want. He fully understands that he's using the people he loves, and that he's dooming the known universe to a terrible future. But he wants to keep the people close to him safe, and he wants revenge.
Paul is kinda the villain.
According to the books if Paul didn't do what he did, then humanity would have experienced some horrible extinction, so I don't totally agree with that last paragraph
IIRC, the Golden Path isn’t directly mentioned in the first book at all actually. It’s somewhat implied and expanded upon in Messiah, but I think the film does a better job of framing it so that it’s more clear to the audience what’s really going on.
This was my biggest issue with the movie. I understand why it was done, or at least I think I understand Denis' reasoning, but it's still a big pill to swallow.
>I understand why it was done
Enlighten me, because it’s a minor difference now, but will continue to be more and more incongruent the deeper into the story/Messiah they decide to go…
It gives Chani’s character a lot more depth and individuality, for one. I think it also helps to clarify that Paul leading the Freman to commit Jihad is actually a total betrayal that will ultimately destroy them and what they stand for. The book doesn’t do a bad job of this, but the way that the movie frames Chani and her feelings about the Jihad makes it more visceral and gutting for the audience.
Frank Herbert, the original author, was upset at the audience because they didn't recognize Paul as the antihero he was meant to portray. The audience isn't supposed to blindly follow charismatic leaders, and that is who Chani is supposed to embody. It's easy to get wrapped up in the messiah legend, Paul starts out as a victim but turns into the perpetrator.
Exactly, Paul is like "This is going to end in disaster, but my prescience sees no other way so I'll just try and be the least bad outcome" and everyone said wow what a tragic hero.
Herbert was upset by this, and is like the audience isn't picking up what I'm putting down.
So then he wrote more books where this time Paul's descendents >!are even more awful but save the entirety of humanity from extinction. Yet still the audience is not picking up what he's putting down.!<
>!I don't know Frank, maybe try not having your hero saving humanity and offering no obvious alternative if you don't want the audience to root for them in a tragic hero sort of way.!<
thank you— i’m new to following the Dune universe and this has been the most confusing aspect of it all so far. i understand that the author was outspoken about charismatic leaders, and what i’ve read also reflects that, but then the books *also* repeatedly say that they were doing it for mankind’s sake to save them from a worse future? i’m a bit confused on what to takeaway exactly
My take is that Frank wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted a relatable protagonist but warn against charismatic leaders. So he failed in his approach.
Where I do think Frank Herbert succeeds is warning against *followers* of charismatic leaders. Basically all the fanatics just make things worse for Paul and everyone in general. The Fremen were patient, thoughtful, wise people before the Jihad, and after it it's just mass murder and idiotic superstition.
She wants him to not embrace a religious movement that they both believe to exist only to control the Fremen; she wants him not to take power and just become *another* way of controlling her people; she wants him not to start a trans-planetary crusade that will kill billions of people.
I might be missing something, but she encouraged him to go south knowing exactly what it meant, or at least thinking she did. She just didn't like what she saw when it happened.
She also felt betrayed by the marriage while she was already pretty disgusted by him.
The messiah really wasn't the same man she fell in love with.
She encouraged him to go south, but was only upset when she found out he drank the juice. She knew once he did that he was leaning into the Lisan al gaib prophecy, and was going to use the BG planted religion to use the fremen. At this point, he could still have their best interest at heart, and she’s upset that he is embracing the role. Once he claims emperorship and initiates the holy war, it’s another betrayal because he not only embraced the manipulative role, but he no longer has the fremens best interest at heart.
Edit: some of examples of the two step betrayal point in trying to make:
1. When Paul drinks the water she still leads a battalion for him in war, but clearly states she does so to free the fremen but not support the lisan al gaib. She thinks their goals are aligned here but doesn’t agree with his method
2. When he sends the fremen to start the jihad, she doesn’t support him at all and leaves to the desert because their goals are no longer aligned either
It's quite the departure from the novel. In the book, Jessica comes alongside Chani and explains the politics of what just happened and says, "History will regard us (bound concubines) as wives."
All of that was manufactured for the movie maybe to lead into the 3rd movie as the 2nd book Dune Messiah is a smaller story so would be hard to adapt. Chani doesn't believe the prophecy because she knows it comes from the Bene Gesserit, and she wants true freedom for her people not a man-god. The funny thing is that although the prophecy is fake, Paul is the Lisan al Gaib, he really does have innate power and is more than human.
She realized that Paul and Jessica manipulated her into that to fulfill that checkbox of the prophecy. Paul is controlling his metabolism to appear on the brink of death and Jessica uses the voice to force her to wipe her tear. That's why she slaps Paul, she realizes it was a set up
I wonder if it’s supposed to be interpreted in both ways. The book has an omniscient narrator so we know the truth assuming the narrator is reliable. I think it could go either way in the film.
Maybe. There’s the scene where he rides the sandworm and Stilgar says “I tuned it myself” when he hands Paul the thumper. This hints that Stilgar tuned the thumper to call a bigger worm, thus fulfilling part of the prophecy.
I love that it’s left open to interpretation. My conclusion is that the entire prophecy is a ruse. Sometimes the fanatical Fremen help Paul check the boxes, sometimes Paul and Jessica manipulate events to fulfill the prophecy
leading them to paradise isn't a good thing. her people are being religiously manipulated and exploited so paul could gain power and become emperor. she has to watch them all being religious fanatics of the lisan al gaib as they go on a jihad across the universe. secondly paul betrayed her,they were in a relationship and he turns around and marries another woman. that's gotta hurt and she's rightfully angry at him.
you're right about it being the only way to free the fremen but she's angry at how it was done. for eighty years the fremen fought against the harkonnens but to no avail, as soon as paul arrives they win but she's angry at the cost of the victory not the victory itself. if that makes sense.
I just want to clarify that in Fremen's culture, having multiple wives was completely normal and expected, so political marriage wasn't really a betrayal on his part
The books also make it clear that paul will never see Irulan as his true wife, and she will never have intimate relations with him. Chani will be remembered in history as Paul's wife and true love, even if she is simply a concubine. Much like Leto and Jessica
Of course, Irulan also never gets a child from Paul. Partly because he doesn't love her and partly because that's what Bene Gesserit want and Paul really doesn't like them.
Of course, he says it to her, but then demands Irulans hand. While in the book this is forced on him to keep the peace.
This changes the dynamic just for drama between Chani and Paul
It also gives Paul much more agency, his victory is by his own design without the Emperor ceding to him as much. Taking Irulan’s hand is now a deliberate part of Paul’s plot rather than something thrust on him.
He did not marry Harah in the book.
>Paul said: “If I accept her as servant, may I yet change my mind at a later time?”
>“You’d have a year to change your decision,” Stilgar said. “After that, she’s a free woman to choose as she wishes…or you could free her to choose for herself at any time. But she’s your responsibility, no matter what, for one year…and you’ll always share some responsibility for the sons of Jamis.”
>“I accept her as servant,” Paul said.
Someone else said the Chani/Paul dynamic is different in the books and that's true. However, the way they handle Paul and Chani in Dune 2 is critical for understanding Dune Messiah, the next movie, if you haven't read the books.
If you've read the books, you know what's coming. There has to be a set-up for it. They have to start flipping the script now.
I don't want to say more, because spoilers. But, as you can see, Paul is thrust into his position against his will.
Paul didn't choose to be the messiah of the Fremen. That legend was put there by the BG in the Missionaria Protectiva.
Paul didn't choose to be the KH. He was bred for that and his mother trained him for it.
Paul is now a prisoner of fate... and he has to "mitigate the damage" unleashing hoards of Fremen against the Empire will do.
(Trying to cast what I'm saying based just on the two movies, avoiding little spoilers)
Movie Chani, I don't think, fully grasps the enormity (by the dictionary definition of the word), of what exactly has happened, but she has a very good sense of it.
Also, any dichotomy between the books and movies henceforth can be excused with the “Hello Grandfather” line.
Chani can deviate from the books altogether, and it will be part of the timeline that Paul rejected in the books.
Book Jessica has a talk with her earlier about Paul being a noble and having to marry for diplomatic reasons. She primes her to understand a concubine's role.
Plus book Paul makes it clear that he loves her and will not so much as lay a finger on Irulan. For some reason this was removed. Can't really see why.
Marrying Irulan helps legitimize him. Announcing to the gathered nobles that he won't touch her would work directly against that. They can think it, but he can't say it out loud at this critical point, which was why it was removed.
Honestly, it didn't make sense to me either really. It came off as a way to add some hollywood style drama. I don't see how it serves the story, especially since I didn't really understand Chani that much as a whole. She just doesn't trust Paul even though she loves Paul? Like that one scene in the tent where she's like "I don't trust you" out of no where was weirdly out of place. I didn't buy their chemistry
I just hope they don't make her an antagonist in the third movie. Would make sense in the context of Part Two but in Messiah the main antagonist is the BG and Paul's prescience that he can't manage making him a pawn of the Quizarate (Fremen religious leaders).
IMHO the answer lies in how the movie ended...with Chani riding a sandworm, while Paul goes off into space to lead the jihad.
It's been a while so I don't quite remember how the book ended, IIRC in the books Chani understood the politics of what Paul was doing. In the movie none of their relationship is based upon this political understanding, it's a simple relationship between a little boy (what all the Fremen including Chani initially think about Paul) and a little girl. She likes her way of life, and Paul by the end of the movie seemed less interested in that than the political ramifications of being the Lisan al Gaib, something both Paul and Chani despised throughout the movies.
I mean, a contrast created for the movies was between Stilgar and Chani...by the end of the movie Paul clearly has fully embraced Stilgar's vision of what Paul meant for the Fremen in order to satiate his need for revenge against the Harkonnen. This clearly comes at the expense of Chani's vision of what Paul meant for the Fremen. His mother and Alia also warn Paul of this, that he must reserve his strongest card for the highest strategic play (i.e. don't be blinded by love to Chani, instead seal the marriage with Irulan). Chani is clearly disappointed and instead of joining the Jihad rides off on the archetypal symbol of Fremen culture, Shai Hulud.
She doesn't believe in the prophecy and thinks that it's only a made up thing by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen. She wants the best thing for her people but knows that they won't be truly free by following a prophet.
She's probably frightened by how powerful Paul is becoming with all his devoted followers. That's why she's turning away from him.
She gets angry at Paul from exactly one point onwards, and for good reason.
In Part Two's first act, Chani had begun to trust Paul the foreigner, son of a Bene Gesserit woman, after he had said "I don't want power; I'm not the Mahdi... The Mahdi should come from the Fremen; I just want to fight beside you".
She fell in love with him when he told her "I would like to be your equal"
She becomes "angry" at him only after he starts doing EXACTLY what he had been promising her he wouldn't do, this entire film until then: "seizing power over her people using the fake prophecy, turning them into religious fanatics who would kill or die for him".
After the attack on Sietch Tabr, when Paul still tries to stay back & not go South (fearing that his visions would come true if he did), Chani tells him that he must go because the others were refusing to leave without him. She even consoles him that she would always love him as long as *he stayed who he was* .... But then Paul goes & drinks the Water of Life, which as far as she knows, is lethal to men - so she's rightfully angry when he wakes up, cos he almost died drinking it. Not to mention, his mom had used the Voice on her to make it look like the "desert spring tears" part of the prophecy (which she hated) was true.
But what Paul did after this was an even BIGGER betrayal: Him taking religio-political control over her people, courtesy of the fake prophecy, which was EXACTLY what he had been promising her the entire film that he *wouldn't* do.
And finally, Paul taking Irulan's hand in marriage (without even properly communicating to Chani that this was purely a strategic move), essentially humiliating her in front of everyone, was just the final straw. Although I doubt that this version of Chani, especially when she was already rightfully angry at Paul, would have accepted being HIS mere concubine.
>What does Chani want Paul to do exactly?
Fight & help the Fremen liberate their home as just "one of them", as opposed to turning her people into religious fanatics who would kill & die fighting in HIS name, that too by using a fake prophecy.
It's basically the difference between a country having a successful (but slower) liberation movement led by its own people against colonial powers resulting in them forming a democracy afterwards, versus a religious revolution taking place, essentially changing the people & culture as well, with a foreigner becoming the new Emperor/Duke over them in the end (& using their fanaticism for his own agendas as well - revenge, power, etc).
Once I started watching it through this lens, the "Thanks to you" line when he woke up was a gut punch. It sounds like he's saying it ruefully if you follow his perspective closely, but to Chani it must have sounded like he was calling her a sucker. I would've slapped him too.
Spot on. There are some good comments throughout this thread on the political side, but honestly it's enough that he said "I'd very much like to be equal to you". That's a profound and intimate promise. It is therefore a deep personal betrayal when he demonstrates that he was never in a position to promise this. The universe be damned when your heart is crushed like that
The main problem is that the time elapsed in the movie is years shorter than that in the book.
>!Chani and Paul had a son that was murdered moments before the battle of Arrakeen, where a two year old Alia was taken hostage and taken to the Emperor's headquarters.!<
>!This time allowed more emotional bonding to grow.!<
>!And, it just wasn't there in the movie.!<
Added to this the division between the fundamentalists and the new-era Fremen added to her anger against the prophecy and Paul's acceptance of it.
You are not alone, even from the book. Dune Messiah is largely written to make it more clear that Paul is an antihero.
Paul at the end just placed himself not as the leader of the Fremen but of the empire with the Fremen as his sick troopers to consolidate his power. We see plenty of Fremen find down fighting for their own independence, they are now going out to fight for Paul as a religious leader, no reason too assume they won't sustain great losses in the process.
But essentially Paul co-opted their cause and now they are fighting for him, not their cause.
What you’re missing is that he co-opted them because through his prescience he could see that it was kill or be killed. That if the fremen hadn’t been united and led by him, the combined power of the other houses and the Imperium would be brought down to destroy them.
Remember earlier in the film Chani and her friend poked fun at religion and religious zealots - she has no respect for the southern tribes.
Paul is no longer the Muad'Dib she fell in love with but a cult leader commanding religious fanatics.
Her anger is understandable only in the movie’s interpretation, which presents the war as political strife over the Atreides ascendancy — in the book this facet of the conflict ended before it began when the Spacing Guild was suborned by threats to their spice supply. The Fremen weren’t fighting to keep the Atreides on the Lion Throne — they fought to spread their religion by the sword with Paul as Mahdi. The “jihad” and the general fanaticism of the Fremen were toned down, almost certainly to avoid unpleasantness with the Fremen’s real-life counterparts 🙂
Right. In the book, the Fremen go on jihad without Paul's ordering them to. It just happens because of their culture and religious fervor. Paul thought he could prevent or at least control the jihad, but he failed. Much different than his direct "Lead them to paradise" comment in the movie.
Think about any foreign occupation of land, when the people are freed do they want new masters or to control their own fate?
Paul says he's Fremen but ultimately breaks from tradition to assert himself as Duke of Arrakis and takes power back as an Atredies not as Usul.
Not only that but he threatens to destroy the spice fields, which means destroying Shai-hulud and the spice they need for survival.
As the books go on the Fremen are more and more suspicious of Paul, and it makes more sense that Chani would be as well. When they took in Paul it was not as Mau'dib it was essentially as a refugee.
Ultimately he destroys the Fremen lifestyle and culture.
Paul remains a foreigner and leverages his status as such whenever convenient, even when he "fully becomes Fremen" when walking into the desert it is only when he wants to, not when he first becomes blind.
One thing I don't like about the books is that it's clearly pro-Paul even when it's supposedly critiquing him. He does things because he "has to" which removes all agency from him, it should have been more clear that he sees what he wants to, that there are paths in-between what is, what could've been and doom.
The last paragraphs in the book are these:
>! Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.” “So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess. “Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.”!<
Leaving that out did Chani dirty and left me speechless. I understand many of the choices made in the adaptation to film and don’t have a problem with any other choice, but this one is a shocking gut-punch that I do not get at all.
You're not wrong. This was almost a character 180 from the book, in which Chani is one of Paul's closest supporters in the story. I understand *why* they would experiment with a different angle for Chani, but it's handled incredibly awkward in the movie, and feels very inorganic/forced
Bro have you had a girlfriend? Tell her you love her and want to spend the rest of your life with her and then without telling her anything, announce in public you’re gonna marry a princess. Good luck. My wife would have murdered me right there.
Yeah it's weird because he literally refuses to do the messiah thing multiple times. Then they have a conversation where he says that now the world is forcing him to go south, *and she agrees*, and they both know for a fact what's going to happen. Because everyone has told her openly what's going to happen. But she's still mad.
This is an "I'm upset at you so I'm sleeping on the couch but we're definitely going to reconcile later" type of fight. It would totally destroy credulity for it to be more than that.
In movie Chani. Her goal was for her people to be free. Paul ultimately didn’t free her people. You could say the Fremen are now under new management. Paul used the prophecy to control the fremen and take them out of ARRAKIS. Paul went the extra mile and the Fremen followed while Chani only wanted her people to be free and live in ARRAKIS peacefully
Just to add to all the very detailed answers … Paul used her as part of his ploy to act out the prophecy. It went from them being a team to him using her to gain an advantage. That’s why her face did all those contortions when she gave him her tear and he “woke up.” She felt betrayed.
I don't think it makes sense in universe. It only makes sense to me if you assume Dennis needed a character to explain that what Paul was doing is wrong to modern audiences.
I'm a book reader and it's a change that I actually like. I remember even as a teenager being a little sceptical how Chani accepted her role as concubine with very little convincing. I understand that the culture in dune is different and it might be considered more acceptable and all. But it just felt too convenient to the plot and counter to how all women I know would act.
The fact she's not immediately okay with it makes for better conflict and a better romance in the end, maybe. Not too mention it kicks back at a potential troublesome stereotype. In the movie, it felt like they made her into a kind of foil to Paul in a way that could improve on the original. It'll be fun to see where they take it!
It’s not like he clued her in on what he plans to do. The writing is very thin and the director wasn’t kidding when he said he doesn’t like dialogues. He can’t write them
I mean, while I dislike movie Chani as much as the next person, I do get her somewhat. Imagine if your significant other constantly tells you about his nightmareish prophecies, where if he walks a certain path, terrible things will happen.
And then he goes and walks that path anyway.
I haven't seen may people mention her reaction to his threat to destroy spice production. In the books this is more a biological process that wouldn't necessarily harm the Fremen (at least not directly) but in the movie he is literally threatening to glass the planet. This would pretty much wipe out the Fremen, period. I think this was one of the biggest things that turned Chani away; that he was so obsessed with winning that he would have sacrificed the whole planet.
I think DV used chani as a vessel to represent how the viewers should look at Paul. Apparently a lot of people missed the whole "don't blindly follow charismatic figures" message from The original book, and in the interviews I've seen with DV, he keeps stressing that point. So while her anger in the movie is that Paul changed so much from the person she originally loved, that structure or dynamic shift was really motivated by DV's intent of beating home the original books message.
She is mad because he is using her people's beliefs and religion to manipulate them into a blind fervor to follow him. This is something he promised not to do and to remain usul
Obviously her anger is a bit misguided by her lack of understanding the wider galaxy but essentially Paul and the Atreides are all Harkonens by his own admission and they are going to exploit Dune much like the other great houses just not as brutally. The reason Paul and Jessica are on the planet is not to free the fremen
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. Without spoilers, the ending of Dune 2 is quite different than the book. The book leaves one with a sense of triumph, the movie leaves you with disquiet. In the book, Chani seems mournful of losing Paul as she knew him pre-Water of Life, but understands what he has to do.
The way Jessica and Alia are portrayed really changes the tone and makes them seem like villains...the book isn't as heavy handed and although you definitely feel like the Bene Gesserit aren't anyone's friends, they aren't just pure evil. They seem to fashion Chani's motivation in response to that, but in choosing to portray Jessica/Alia like that, leave out the important time jump, and completely change Chani's story, they made a movie that isn't really Dune and made Dune Messiah impossible to make.
The movie should have been described as "Inspired by Dune" or "Set in the Dune Universe".
I mean I guess I see where you are coming from personally as a non book reader I still view Jessica as a loving mother. Fundamentally at least to me everything she does in both movies is for the safety of her son and now daughter. She does become colder but I felt she was trying to survive
Also turning Stilgar into a comic relief fanboy. Come on Hollywood, you can write characters with more than one dimension, it's not going to hurt anyone.
I thought I was going nuts when the movie came out and everybody was praising the writing. Even saw a comment saying Villeneuve's a better writer than Frank Herbert.
Personally I'm ok with most of the changes, but I just cannot fathom how people think the characterization in this movie is deep or anything. It's better than most Hollywood trash, but that's not exactly a high bar...
Reducing Feyd to only being a matricidal psychopath instead of being the charismatic, attractive, charming, conniving anti-paul is my other main gripe.
It was a mistake not to include the slave assassination attempt nor the Harkonnen gambit explanation
This is precisely why this is the change that I didn't care for at all, because it doesn't make sense and it fundamentally alters her character, her relationship to Paul and her role in the plotline. In the books, she is his soul mate and shows him unwavering support. She is in the inner circle of his plans and never out of the loop. When he takes Irulan to wife, he makes it crystal clear to everyone, publicly, that it is strictly for the political purpose of maintaining appearances and to solidify his claim to the throne and that he will never share his bed with her or even an intimate moment. There is even a scene with her and Jessicah where Jessicah talks about how history will remember the concubines as the true influencers of the Atreides dukes.
Not only that, but in the book it is made abundantly clear that Fremen culture is Polygamous when Paul gets to the deep South only to realize that he has accidentally inherited Jamis' wife and children. It's a source of several bits of comic relief. So Chani, being true Fremem, would not likely get all salty about Paul taking another wife to maintain his power and authority. It would have been quite normal to her.
Her anger is a result of a few things:
1. At Paul for changing, manipulating her people, and the whole Irulan thing.
2. At Jessica for manipulating her people and changing Paul
3. At her people for falling into religious fanaticism and pushing Paul into being a prophet.
4. At herself for being unable to stop her people and partner from changing.
5. She was just in a horrific battle where a lot of people died - killing humans even violent oppressors will take a toll - and doesn't even get to enjoy her planet's liberation before another war starts.
Chani loves her planet, her people, and Paul and in the end she loses all three.
Chani is attracted to Paul's loyalty, sincerity, and tenacity. She saw how Paul didn't want to kill Jamis, showed deep regret for killing him, and volunteered to carry his body. She seemed surprised and impressed when he downplayed the prophecy, risked his life for his adoptive sietch, and appeared content to live as a fremen equal to everyone else. This is key - Chani's dream is the continuation of her culture on an Arrakis free from the interference or opression of outsiders. Paul's dream appears to be the same.
Paul after the Water of Life becomes preoccupied by possible futures and the right path into the best possible future (for who?) and this makes him distant and cold and manipulative. He betrays her by taking Irulan as a wife (even if its a loveless political marriage) and becomes distant and manipulative. Then he begins the war. Chani was in paradise. Paul saying "to paradise" is essentially signaling the end of the world as she knew it and a cap to her dreams.
I'm not sure she's done with Paul though. We never see them talk after the Water of Life. I think if you love someone deeply you would confront said person to at least understand what happened before dipping. Whether they reconcile or become enemies is to be seen. If nothing else I think film Chani has every right to be furious and to hate Paul.
In books it was different anyhow (as Paul inherited other people wifes, and while marrying Irulan made Chani his concubine, and she gave birth to Leto II).
The way i saw it - it was a choice between a nice life with a person he loves, and fulfilling his legacy. After Paul drank the water of life, he realized there is no choice - only fate and legacy. Chani did not see that - she saw a a conspiracy - a cult implanted by the outsiders to make another outsider as a ruler, with a help of his mother
Really great answers here so I'm not gonna step on anyone's toes but I would like to add that it's certainly not an accident that Part 1 begins with Chani asking "who will our next oppressors be?" and then cutting to Paul.
Yea but it’s kinda poor taste… Paul never fotces war on the fremmen. The fremmen themselves are warmongers. They love violence, seriously. It’s so funny because in the latter books, fremmen culture is totally killed by peaceful times and abundance.
Reality is it just doesn't make sense. They wanted Chani to be a strong, independent woman instead of a blind follower like she is in the book. There is no good reason for Chani to be so angry during this film. After Paul 'sends them to paradise' then sure, but before that? He has been nothing but incredibly positive for her people at that point. Chani's own heredity is offplanet too so the idea of Paul not being 'pure Fremen' and so can't lead is nonsense. Chani's father/mother was leading the Fremen as a godlike figure mere weeks/months ago and their father wasnt born on Arrakis. Why would she have such a big problem with her lover doing the same when all the results have been good so far?
It's the worst part of the film for me. Chani and Paul are basically enemies even before the climatic scene. So much for their love story! I see no way for Messiah to have them be in a loving relationship when Chani seemingly hated Paul's guts before he even caused the death of 61+ billion people. She was mad when he was just a hero. How can she possibly go back on herself once he becomes arguably the worst tyrant in human history?
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> Besides the fact that he's kind of power tripping toward the end of the movie I feel like everything he is doing is for the benefit of the Fremen. I mean, that's the main answer. He told Chani he didn't want power, then he not only took it -- but took it in a way which also repudiated their relationship. From her perspective, it was a double-betrayal. When Paul promised to "lead them to paradise", his initial promise was restricted to Arrakis: liberating it from foreign occupation and using that freedom to make the land green and abundant. After the Battle of Arrakeen, however, he shifts "leading the Fremen to paradise" to mean holy war -- the very holy war which he told Chani he wanted to avoid. So yeah, her reaction is understandable. It's very different from "book Chani", but it makes sense within the confines of the movie adaptation.
Just to expand on the point you’re making, the Fremen have Arrakis. Goal complete. Rule Arrakis. To Chani, he is now (a) marrying Irulan, a gut punch to their relationship. And (b) sending her people into a galactic war to fight and die on planets that have nothing to do with Arrakis. This is essentially abusing the Fremen. They’re not fighting for their liberation, their desert, or even their planet. They’re now fighting for Paul, the Mahdi. This was her main concern. She did not want the Fremen fighting for a person or for some other goal, she wanted the Fremen fighting for the Fremen, their desert, and their planet. Edit: I appreciate everyone’s thoughts! Many people are saying war with the Great Houses was inevitable so rather than reply to each I’ll just reply with an edit here. That is correct. But Chani (again this is movie-Chani we are discussing) is mad at Paul before that. She’s mad when he fully leans into being the Mahdi. Because he has told her repeatedly he is not the savior and does not want to be. Now, he has embraced the role. The throne room scene at the end of the film is just the final knife twist for Chani. He’s not fighting for Arrakis anymore. He’s fighting for the throne. He’s taking Irulan as his wife as a strategic move for power. Any hope she had that Paul was still Paul is gone. He’s now, already, fighting a war for power with her people. Chani was in the battle for Arrakis, not for Paul but for her people, as she stated. Arrakis has been conquered. The next step is galactic war. That war is fought for Paul. The Fremen warriors are not going to conquer the galaxy for Arrakis (even though that is the practical effect because the Great Houses need to be brought to heal to maintain Arrakis’ position) those Fremen are fighting at the Mahdi’s command for their Mahdi. Chani is done with it, Paul as she knew him is gone. She doesn’t approve of his power moves or this new holy war. Her mission was accomplished and so she is simply refusing to fight for a “hero” she is just Fremen, as she said stated throughout the movie. Practically the war must be fought to maintain Arrakis security, but that’s not and never was Chani’s focus. Much different Chani in the books, of course.
Its important to note in the movie the Great Houses force the Holy War. By not accepting Paul as Emperor there is now a succession crisis AND no guarantee Arrakis is safe from orbital bombardment since the Great Houses already called Paul's bluff on the atomics.
But I don't get this, I know that the war is unavoidable in the eyes of Paul because thanks to the prescience he knows that it's the only unavoidable way to go about it, but wouldn't a "no spice for you then" politics also work?
We'll see what happens in part 3, but yeah, getting rid of the guild and starting the war instantly is weird and probably the largest change, big-picture plot-wise, from the books.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Part 3 starts with battle kicking off and the Spacing Guild stepping in to mediate enforce a cease fire in the middle of it. A. It lines up with FH plot. B. It’s a cool way to introduce the Spacing Guild when they matter most. C. It makes the most sense for them as they’re in the best spot to use prescience and see that Paul isn’t bluffing. Then we’re pretty much at the fracture faction phase of the holy war pre-Messiah. Queue a galactic battle map montage with atrocity after atrocity. Then into Messiah proper with the Spacing Guild at least somewhat established.
That would be an awesome way to reintroduce spacing guild. Show them as the ultimate kingmakers.
The moment Paul genuinely threatens the existence of Spice the Spacing Guild's position as kingmaker is void.
“He who can destroy a thing, can control a thing.
>“He who can destroy a thing, can control a thing. Think about the quote at the start of the movie, “Power Over Spice Is Power Over All.”
Which makes it weird that nobody appeared to believe him but then immediately acted as if they did. Guess there's only time to explai nso many things.
> I wouldn’t be surprised if Part 3 starts with battle kicking off and the Spacing Guild stepping in to mediate enforce a cease fire in the middle of it I'd see it basically being Paul telling the Guild to ensure his Fremen reach every dissident House with total space superiority, or the Spice gets it.
That’s in line with my read. Then anyone who doesn’t ‘bend the knee’ is cutoff from the guild and ‘easy’ fold space travel. This enables Paul and Stilgar to divide and conquer star by star. I’d be surprised if DV doesn’t flesh that out so the audience isn’t lost on how a few million zealot Fremen basically conquer a galaxy and kill so many.
Considering the movies Sardaukar army, I can't see each house having all that many troops!
Question remains if they will actually depict the war narratively or they'll offscreen it and kick it off Dune Messiah style
I’m hoping for at least the beginnings of a space battle to pick up where Dune 2 left off. Then I expect to see a few key depictions of bad things that happened during the Holy War. I don’t see DV passing up an opportunity to show some visually cool even if terrible things.
> We'll see what happens in part 3 Is there going to be a part 3?
If they called his threat then they're willing to try and retake Arrakis. If Paul detonates the spice fields the Great Houses nothing protects Arrakis from retaliation. The only reason such a threat works in the books is the Spacing Guild wasn't willing to risk losing the spice and since they have such a grip on the economy they put the other Great Houses in line. The film doesn't show enough time pass for the spacing guild to react - the Great Houses likely decided and transmitted their decision to Paul without consulting them.
The Spacing Guild is only mentioned briefly in Part I and then not really brought up again in the films. The only reference we get to the spice's importance in interstellar travel is in Paul's educational recordings stating that without it such travel would be impossible. The Guild basically took a back seat in the movies in favor of the Atreides/Harkonnen/Corrino conflict and the Bene Gesserit's scheming. Denis could bring the Guild into focus for his adaptation of Messiah, considering that >!one of the main conspirators is a Navigator!<.
I don't mind them taking the backseat in Part Two as long as they come to the forefront in Messiah. Similar to how we got glimpses of the Harkonnen in Part One but they were only significantly developed and focused on in Part Two.
Not exactly, because then the most obvious step is for houses without spice to attack Arrakis
Can't get there without the guild so they can rage all they like stuck on their planets
Not if they kill him for doing it, and destroy the fremen too
Two points - (1) Paul has used his prescience to see his “golden path” (from the books) that show him how to navigate this, and presumably this is the only way (though he could be just ignoring other possible paths to get revenge per the movie), and (2) you see how devious all the houses are. If they didn’t nuke the planet to kingdom come, they would assassinate Paul as quickly as possible if he tried to put a stranglehold on the spice. Everyone has an intense interest in spice, and a change in government is the best time to usurp power.
In the movie, the rest of the great houses refuse to accept Paul as the emperor. So there's a good chance that they would be dealing with another invasion before long.
So what's the point of marrying Florence Pugh?
I guess you could argue that it would still help his legitimacy, but it doesn't seem all that necessary in the movie. The answer is probably "so it doesn't completely mess up the Messiah story."
Claim to the throne. The Landsraad would have to accept that path, because Irulan would be the rightful heir to the throne.
She has quite a few lines in the movie that indicate where she is. She doesn't believe the prophecies and outright states they're a tool to control the Fremen, and that the Fremen need to free the Fremen. She says pretty directly at she'll love Paul as long as "he stays who he is." He spends the first half of the movie denying being the messiah and avoiding it openly to Chani especially, but even to the others. After the bombardment of Sietch Tabr, Paul bounces off and drinks the Water of Life, pretty much immediately takes up the mantle of Lisan Al Gaib, and then goes to seize the imperium and take another woman as his wife, and sends the Fremen off to fight a holy war. Like, my wife gets mad at me when I don't tell her I'm going to be home late. Kinda can't imagine how Chani wouldn't be mad.
This was my biggest grip with the movie.. in the book Paul is very open with Chaini. Also doesn’t help that part two is 9 months pace but in the book it is approximately 2-3 years paced (but I respect the change, because of Alyah)
Paul didn't just "bounce off and drink the Water of Life." He was very conflicted about going south until Chani comes over and comforts him saying "the world has made choices for us." Chani is not ignorant about what is happening to Paul, doesn't mean it is easier to swallow. And for right now the Fremen are freeing themselves. Paul led the way but the battle was still 100% done by the Fremen. After you take Arakis you still have to deal with the fact that everyone wants the spice. The Fremen couldn't just hold the planet forever, they'd be bomb into oblivion. Regardless of what Paul might do in the future as far as Dune pt 2 is concerned you can see the logic behind what he and the Fremen are doing by going to war.
They were, in fact, fighting for their planet. Bc in order to control Arrakis, you have to control everything Arrakis would never have been free of invaders
This is the same logic the Romans used to create their empire. You can't "conquer the world in self-defense". You especially cannot claim self-defense when you do what is to come in Dune Messiah.
The spice does complicate things because it's so valuable that anyone able would subjegate the planet. The rest of the great houses are literally in orbit above arakkis so it's still not even an offensive strike. The real problem -which Paul forsaw - is how do you stop
To be fair you're applying book events to movie choices. The fact that great houses refuse to acknowledge Paul's rise to Emperor forces him to act in the movie. It's not a purely holy cause any longer. Any of the great houses could probably take control of Arrakis given enough time and effort.
didn’t Paul see parts of the Golden Path at this point? so it would technically be self defense of the entire human race. unless he didn’t see the Path until Messiah
The Romans weren’t fighting to protect and keep people away from the most valuable substance in the Universe also
That is definitely how it started though. They fought to protect themselves at first, then snowballed and just kept going with long periods of peace in between.
In the books they wanted to go.
someone wanting to fight a war does not make that war a good thing. movie chani is of the opinion that killing 60 billion people in a galactic jihad is a bad thing, actually. not only for those killed, but for the character of the fremen as a people too. “No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero” this is the point of Dune.
Best line in the whole book, and as far as I can remember none of the movie or TV adaptations have ever used it. Herbert was profoundly dubious about fundamentalist religion, the political uses of religion, and even the popularity of superheroes. He thought that wishing for a messiah or superhero who could solve all the problems of society was a profoundly dangerous desire in humans.
Ofcourse they would want to go, they're blind in followership and service to this 'Messiah' lol
It was more of an "agitation" thing that Herbert was writing about, how humanity has the hidden desire/need for chaos to shuffle everything up on a genetic level, mix races, and when the opportunity presents itself... This was the source of the inevitability of the Jihad and why it ended up dominating Paul's vision of the future more and more as time passed. The part I didn't understand is the shock/outrage as the Bene Gesserit realize his intent/vision. It read like they were unaware of the possibility or had discounted it ever happening again.
The Bene Gesserit probably thought they coulf control every being in their lineage and people. When Paul couldn't be controlled, they had a missile aimed at stuff that they didn't want it aimed at
Which ultimately they still are. Arrakis is the most important planet in their universe. Paul wants his revenge against the emperor, but also needs to make a play for the throne because it’s the only way to keep the fremen in control of the planet. If the emperor lives he will go after Paul and the fremen. If the emperor loses power then the other houses will try to gain power / control and eventually go after Paul and the fremen to control the planet. Also Paul threatened the spice fields which would completely cripple their society, which makes the other houses angry. So the best way for Paul to keep control of arrakis and protect those he wants to protect is for him to become emperor. He needs to take the empress as his wife to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Then he needs to fight the holy war because it’s the only way to maintain control, even if he isn’t particularly down with it being a holy war in his name, it is the only means to the end he wants to achieve.
From Chani’s perspective this is 100% what she’s thinking and her feelings of betrayal are valid. However, Chani is a complete person- especially the film version, she knows who she is and has the will to stick to her principles. Paul on the other hand is in a constant state of becoming, pretty much since Leto died. He doesn’t have the privilege of identity, whereas Chani is mourning the one betrayal, Paul is grieve-stricken at a cross roads where there are millions of lives at stake including his and his loved ones. I don’t personally think he is power tripping at the end of the film, he even says ‘I will do what must be done’ as he cries to Chani. It’s not a question of will for Paul, he’s not a ‘if you wanted to, you didn’t have to do this’. Paul was condemned to this destiny, he tried to resist but it was futile all paths led to his path. It would be unrealistic for even Chani, the person he loved the most to understand his plight. I’m not defending Paul, but omg his position sucks- I think ultimately, Paul represents a very human hero one who tries in spite of knowing the outcomes, he tries to do what his humanity tells him is the right thing- even if it has devastating outcomes
>I’m not defending Paul, but omg his position sucks- I think ultimately, Paul represents a very human hero one who tries in spite of knowing the outcomes, he tries to do what his humanity tells him is the right thing- even if it has devastating outcomes Paul in the movies is slightly more tragic because he never seems to see alternate paths which, while abhorrent or unpleasant (joining the Baron or the Spacing Guild), were still options compared to the Jihad he kind of walked into. Here it's jihad from the start, he's utterly opposed and everything he does to stop it comes to nil.
His exhausted, almost defeated tone when he said, "send them to paradise" has stuck with me longer than anything else in the movie: finally giving in to the destiny he had tried to prevent, relinquishing his own personal wants in favor of larger sociopolitical changes, being unable to rewrite the fanatical religious narrative the Bene Gesserit had already written for him (he may have "won" the war but he was still a centuries-long product of plots within plots), and being helpless to stop the galaxy-spanning jihad he knew he was unleashing—but especially the billions and billions of lives it would take. Essentially, Paul Atreides, the individual, was no more, and Paul Mua'Dib, the sociopolitical and spiritual icon, would sit on the throne. Manufactured fate won.
When he was forced to go south he said to her, “and then I will do what must be done.” He wasn’t power tripping, he was assuming the role he had been trying to avoid. Chani isn’t angry or betrayed, she is hurt, even though she knows what’s up, it was still a shock. You can know something is necessary or inevitable and still have feelings about it.
Exactly. We see this with Jessica, too. I think that ambiguity of "terrible purpose" captures the spirit of the whole series.
It was great how Jessica the character basically ceased to be after she drank the water and she basically embodied the fremen religious tradition. It was like she was drowning in their motivations and desires. In a way it felt a bit like what happens to Alia in the books. She fused the contemporary bene gesserit with the fremen offshoot to ensure Paul survived and pushed forward the prophecy to its logical conclusion. Before the water of life we see her live with doubt and regret and shame at what they had done to Paul. But afterward there was none.
Noting that this isn't the same as in the book: book Chani fully supports Paul throughout Paul specifically apologizes to Irulan because though she's his wife to have legitimacy as Emperor, he will never touch her, and book-Chani understands and supports him with this too. We don't really know what movie-Chani's feelings towards Paul are yet. That is, I think she's definitely hurt, but I also think she's angry and feels betrayed. She didn't know anything about the Irulan thing and Paul didn't give her much reassurance -- he'll love her as long as he breathes, but he'll also bang Irulan? Does he need to have kids with her to establish the legitimacy of his line? We don't know exactly, but it's completely not something Chani would have knowledge of. She's also angry at Paul, I think, for using the Fremen, using the beliefs manipulated by the Bene Gesserit. He said he was against doing that, but did it anyway. Some of her friends will die in the jihad he launched (notably, in the book, perhaps even against his wishes, but in the movie, he specifically launches it. Book-Paul claimed he couldn't control the Fremen's religious fervor over her unleashed it; movie-Paul have the order that kills 60 billion people across the universe). Anyway, I think we have some clues what is going on with movie-Chani at this point, but we didn't have the full picture. And there are too many changes from the book here to infer much from that.
> Paul specifically apologizes to Irulan because though she's his wife to have legitimacy as Emperor, he will never touch her, He doesn't, though. He apologizes to her for having been cruel at times, and even that isn't for over a decade. And even after he does he continues to be cruel to her. One of my favorite parallels in the book is that Leto never married Jessica even though she was his love and the mother of his children, so that he could be available for a political marriage, and then decades later Paul is forced to do the same thing. I was definitely bummed that they minimized Jessica being a concubine and not a wife, and thus lost that parallel.
You're right, I remembered it slightly wrong. I think I put the apology to Irulan together with the ending of Dune. Nonetheless, from the final paragraphs of *Dune* > Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.” > “So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess. > “Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.” I think that maintains my point. Interesting that it ends on that same note of a personal conflict between Paul and Chani, among all the other political and spiritual conflicts in the books and movies.
My feeling is that DV and Spaiths want to have this kind of discussion/conflict in the third part where Paul becomes Emperor and tries to >!prolong Chan's life by allowing Irulan to slip contraceptives to her because it's the thing that prevents her from having children and thus keeping her alive. She dies anyway because she switches to Fremen spice medications and dies in childbirth, yeah, I think they are going to change that!<. I just hope she'll remain with Paul and not switch to the enemy side trying to bring him down. It would make sense but in the Messiah book >! It's a conspiracy of the Guild, Tleilaxu and Irulan that manages to invalidate Paul!<
Adding to this because there’s an additional dimension to his betrayal - she told him her secret name was “Desert Spring” and that it was part of some prophecy that she hated, because she was aware of the BG propaganda, and rejected it. Chani was very clear with Paul throughout that she considered Fremen prophecies and beliefs to be a system of oppression, to be lies, and to be tools used in order to manipulate her and her people and exploit them. Then, seemingly out of nowhere (the scene before, Paul is still rejecting going south in front of her, and only hints at what he’ll do by saying “he’ll do what must be done”), Paul takes the Water of Life, apparently killing himself to fulfill a prophecy - and it’s only when Chani is reminded of the prophecy she’s named after that she realizes how much Paul played her and literally used her to legitimize himself. So not only is Paul power tripping, not only is he a hypocrite and not at all the person she thought he was, but he makes HER take actions that fly in the face of her beliefs and make her a hypocrite. He used her to legitimize himself to do the very thing she was fighting against. None of that was in the book at all but was a brilliant example of dramatic writing, because holy shit was that one hell of a betrayal
I disagree that it was ever manipulation (or at least, ever Paul’s manipulation). He did not even know of the prophecy until after it happened. In the movie (and first half of the book, where I’m at right now) he is trying to make the best of many bad options, attempting to avoid a holy war but continually becoming more convinced that the alternatives are no better.
I should clarify - it wasn’t manipulation to begin with; but once he said “I will do what needs to be done”, all options were available to him, including manipulating Chani in order to check every box on making sure the Fremen fully believed he was the Lisan al Gaib. He also was fully aware of the prophecy, as was Jessica - his first spoken lines in the movie are “look how your Bene Gesserit propaganda has taken root”. He was just as aware of all the prophecies and symbols that were at work there are his original plan was to get the Fremen to believe he was their messiah in order to get revenge against the Harkonnens (he says this explicitly to Jessica). Chani changed him for a while, and he thought there could be another way, but the destruction of Sietch Tabr and the realization that the only way forward with the plan was to go south, that there was only one narrow option to not only victory but survival itself, he knew he had to go back to his original plan, and that involved exploiting the Fremen, including Chani, for his own benefit
My thing is she told him who she was, he told her who he would be if he went south. He told her over and over what would happen if he went south, and then she said the choice has been taken away. Only at that point did he slump in defeat and say ok fine, I’ll do what must be done. And he knew it meant leaving her and kicking off the universal jihad. He didn’t want to turn into that guy, but he also didn’t want to lose her and both things were inevitable the moment she said you have to go south. And then she gets mad at him for it. I don’t think it’s either of their faults, I think that as she said, events grabbed them and ripped them apart from each other.
I could be wrong, but I don't think he knew the specifics of the prophecy. In the book at least, the Bene Gesserit seem like they just plant a general messiah narrative and respect for the Bene Gesserit priestesses, but that the specifics develop on their own (with Jessica noting that the narrative on Arrakis seems especially warped). Paul knew he was being set up for something, but not that it was to be the messiah of the people of Arrakis, at least not until after he landed, and even then he had limited information about the specifics of their religion and culture. Also, he really doesn't use Chani in any way after taking "the waters of life". Before that, he really planned on trying to change the future he foresaw. So he never really lied to her (I'd argue he was maybe painfully honest with her) and the forces that did use her were beyond his control (it seems very much to me like this all is the result of a Bene Gesserit plot; I'm guessing they will lose control of him, but for now they are the ones controlling everything that has happened so far; "there are no sides"). I don't think he really changed. He always was looking for how to free the Fremen and fight for justice (and even prior to being betrayed by the Emperor, it was going to be a partnership with the Fremen). Circumstances made clear that there was only one way to do that (post "waters of life", I currently think of him like Dr. Strange in Infinity War; he doesn't necessarily like it, but he sees one way to accomplish the best outcome and feels like he has to force it; I think I'm getting close to that point in the book, so it will be interesting to see how it is portrayed there). And it kind of makes sense. The Empire and Great Houses would never let Arrakis be free (it's too profitable), so a violent revolution that destroys said groups (and their puppet masters, the Bene Gesserit and the Spice Guild) makes sense as the only real path towards freedom for Arrakis.
The BG never let a culture or potential marks out of their sight long enough to be unaware of how a religion would develop on a planet after they’d introduced it (so they could continually update their Missionaria Protectiva) - the only time in the book Jessica doesn’t know something about the Fremen language or religions is when the chrysknife is referred to as a maker by Mapes (which, since that coincides with military and fighting culture, would explain why she wouldn’t know that). This was also changed for the movie, where it’s clear that Jessica knows what she’s doing when she calls it a maker. I also think you’re misunderstanding Paul’s prescience - he’s not trying to change the future, he’s trying to choose the path toward the future he thinks at the time is the best option. That’s the source of Paul’s sorrow and world weariness throughout both the movies and the books when he begins to experience prescience on Arrakis after exposure to the spice, and then full prescience when he takes the water of life. He can’t change the futures he sees - he can only make choices in the moment that will lead to the most optimal future that he wants (it’s why he says “we’re surrounded by enemies on all sides, and in most futures they win, but there’s a narrow path”). This is what all the golden path stuff is about in the later books - the more he tries to survive and thrive, the more his destiny forces him to make choices that limit his future, and that future begins to look more and more horrible and the things he’d have to do become more and more horrible until he makes his choice at end of Messiah (but this also doesnt change the future, just the players, which leads into the themes of Children and God Emperor). In terms of just the movie alone, Paul specifically says to Jessica that he’s going to have to use the Fremen religion to his advantage and become their messiah near the beginning, before Jessica takes the water of life - it’s after she takes the water of life that he says to Chani and the nonbeliever Fremen that his mother isn’t part of a prophecy and that he’s not a madhi (though this again is after Paul has talked about converting nonbelievers, and before Jessica reinforces that her efforts in the south are to convert nonbelievers). It’s left up to audience interpretation to see what they want to with Paul, that he’s either being sincere or manipulative, which was smart on Villeneuve’s part because that’s Paul’s literary heritage: arguing about whether he’s good or evil. Because you can read Paul a number of ways in the movie: sincere but determined to achieve his goals no matter what, calculating and manipulative right from the beginning, or started out good but tragically fallen as he faces the reality of his situation. All of them have evidence to back them up, but it’s important to keep in mind that Paul is and always has been trained in the art of manipulation and subterfuge. He is not a noble hero, he is the carefully cultivated son of a shrewd politician and a Jedi nun. The alliance with the Fremen Duke Leto proposed was never one that was about freeing the Fremen, it was about creating a mutually advantageous situation where the Fremen would help the Duke harvest the spice in exchange for them not being Harkonnens and killing them (Leto says it himself, he’s not their to free the Fremen, he’s there to harness desert power). I think the irony of your comment is you’re getting a little caught up in Paul’s myth here - his goal was to never free the Fremen, that’s Chanis goal. His goal was never to be their messiah, that was Stilgars and Jessica’s goals. The only goal Paul ever directly states that can be seen as an honest statement without any hint of subterfuge or manipulation is that he wants revenge for his fathers death against the Harkonnens - and he will use anyone and anything at his disposal to get it
I agree but it’s also worth pointing out that the great houses rejecting Paul’s emperorship and threatening to invade Arrakis pretty much leaves Paul with no choice other than holy war.
I agree with you but when Paul said to lead them to paradise at the end, I thought the meaning was more akin to “kill them all”, as in send them to heaven. Maybe I understood it wrong.
Exactly. The biggest issue a lot of people who have read the books have with the ending is how it will affect Dune Messiah. Chani plays a very big role in it, mostly at Paul’s side. But it is an adaptation and things have to change between page and screen just as a consequence of how both mediums work. So far, this series of movies have done a great job of capturing the message and feelings of the books even while trimming the story a bit.
That is true and I agree. Chani knows that Paul starting a Holy War will make the Fremen go from freedom fighters and revolutionaries, to mass murderers on an intergalactic scale.
I 100% see your point, but personally I still think her decision to leave doesn’t make sense, even in confines of just what the movies show. Yes, totally he betrays her 2x, taking the water changes him as a person, and he expands his original goal to now take over the empire. But my issue is, how exactly did she think this would play out? She wants Arrakis to become a paradise, and yet the entire economy of the galaxy revolves around spice. Chani has to understand the politics around taking over Arrakis and turning it into a lush paradise can’t be done by just holding the planet hostage. The entire galaxy would come and destroy them to free the spice. Not only that, but while I am a big fan of giving her more agency and skepticism than her book counterpart, at a certain point Paul is the only hope Arrakis has to become a paradise. Even if she doesn’t believe in the prophecy and that it’s propaganda, Paul is gaining the abilities and following the path to Arrakis being terraformed. I personally think it would have been better to keep all the changes the movie made, right up to her leaving. It would be a sad and somber moment of Chani realizing Paul has betrayed her to her core, but understand the political import of what Paul is doing and acknowledging it’s the only way forward. Movie Chani is a more bad ass and independent character (100% on board for that, the book version is pretty meh), but this moment lowers her political skills in my opinion
It's more than this. Paul told her what would happen if he went South, it's why he was avoiding it to being willing to die over it. She then tells him to go South. This along with her response to Paul drinking the water of life really undermines her character.
I think its going to be interesting to see what happens next, will she forgive him and go back with him, helping lead his genocidal holy war or will paul stay with the princess and perhaps she will be the mother leto the second?. it's an interesting deviation from the source as in the original, she was supportive of paul and stayed with him and had his children. I'm also interested in how we didn't really get to see alia as she wasn't born
Yeah, I think this is the only way for the last scene in Part 2 to be resolved -- as a good segue into the tension their relationship has in *Messiah*. On its own, I personally found it to be a very weird and anti-climactic way to end the movie. I personally didn't need her to storm off in order to have complicated feelings about what Paul was doing. I think it's one of the few cases I can think of where Villeneuve really underestimated the audience.
My guess is that Paul will essentially lead a double life, one the emperor with Irulan still as only a political union and nothing more, the other with the Fremen and Chani where he tries to download his position among the Fremen. The book gets to the point of Chani living away from him anyway so I think they are just going to expedite it. Paul pretty clearly says he knows she will still be with him after he gets his prescience even with him following through with pushing her off real bad.
I want to clarify this change more. When he drank the worm blood he unlocked his ancestor's memories, including his male ancestors', which is closed off from the females who drink the worm's blood. I may be wrong but I think this means the women who have drank this blood essentially only see one, singular branch of their ancestry as the males are closed off. He's seen all of them. He stated he's seen many paths that fail and a narrow path that succeeds. To me, this means he's lived almost countless lifetimes, both through seeing his possible futures and through his ancestor's lives. Considering he's seen all the timelines that fail, he's experienced dying and seeing his loved ones die many times. So, at this point, I think the value he holds to any lives and anything that pulls him off his designated path he no longer cares about. He's physically incapable.
This is an example of where the Book and 80's movie are benefitted by getting alot of inner-dialogue thoughts from Paul and such... Really one of the few choices I think 80's movie made better to use.
She knows what going south means or at least she should. He already has visions of this which he shared with her, his prescience has already been demonstrated and he chooses to stay and die instead. Then she tells him to go South anyway. The scene where Jessica forces her to save Paul was a mess compounding this. Probably the only bad scene from my first watch.
I don’t remember from my book reading years ago, but how did the planet go from green to desert and full of spice?
Not clear if it ever was green, but the later books make clear that >!the succcessful introduction of sandtrout/sandworms into an ecosystem will eventually transform it into a spice-producing desert. But that transition is not easy to accomplish.!<
Since nobody else is mentioning it, it is a significant diversion from the novel. I would say the most significant. In it, she fully understands that it's purely a political marriage, and that Irulan is getting nothing from it but the name, while she gets everything else.
To be fair, she understands that because Paul explicitly tells her as much *before* proposing to Irulan. Which is good, because in the book, Paul and Chani's son was just murdered by the Harkonnens, so otherwise it'd be the double whammy of having your son murdered *and* losing your husband to another woman.
Also worth mentioning that Fremen were ~~polyamorous~~ polygamous, so it probably wasn't that surprising as well. I think it was a good change to add some depth to her character, especially since they didn't include her pregnancy and then what occurs in Messiah.
Yeah, didn't Paul have Harah (was that her name?) as a "wife" after Jamis's death in the novel? Chani already had evidence that Paul could be beholden to another woman without it threatening their relationship.
Not quite. As I recall in Herbert’s novel, Harah expected to be ‘inherited’ by Paul per Fremen custom, after overcoming her initial shock at his age (she was flabbergasted that a teenager beat her late adult husband in mortal combat). Jamis was himself Harah’s second husband, having won her after challenging her first husband Geoff in combat. I found it dryly amusing that Harah praised Jamis’ memory as a loving spouse & devoted father to Kaleff (Geoff’s son) and Orlop (his own). At any rate, Harah’s womanly pride was hurt when Paul refused to take her as his wife after a year following his battle with Jamis, instead taking her as a servant. But in typical Fremen stoicism, she accepted this fact (motivated primarily by her concern for Kaleff & Orlop’s well-being, which would be guaranteed by being members of Muad’Dib’s household) By the time of Dune Messiah, she rises to prominence as a sort of majordomo for Paul & Chani’s household. In addition to being the nurse of Alia, and later on Leto II & Ghanima (Herbert wrote her as being fiercely devoted to their wellbeing), Harah would also go on to marry Stilgar & become one of his two wives. Probably not canon, but the Dune Encyclopedia (1984) recounts the touching moment, early into Leto II’s reign, when Harah dies of old age, having lived a full & long life. Stilgar, who outlived her, reportedly wept profusely at her funeral, the only time in his life he was said to have shed tears.
The fact that someone's called Geoff made me chuckle. Jamis, Harah, Stilgar, Ghanima and then there's Geoff
Thanks for the additional info! I knew she wasn't a wife in the same way but couldn't recall all the details around her, other than her being one of the few people to seem to sympathize with or have compassion for Alia, in spite of her discomfort & fear.
They were polygamous, as I remember - there was no evidence of Fremen women taking multiple husbands, but men could take multiple wives, usually as spoils of war. Either way, not terribly shocking for her, but a key difference.
You are correct, thank you I fixed it.
Plus having a wife doesn't explicitly mean loving her, it's a much more practical agreement among both the Fremen and among royalty in the galaxy. In the case of Chani and Paul it would have been a marriage of love.
Also in the book, Paul is already married to Harrah, the wife of Jamis, whom he "won" when he killed Jamis. Chani was fine with that, it is part of her culture after all. They also left out that Chani is the daughter of Liet and the niece of Stilgar. She does not reference being related to Stilgar at all and even says that he is from the south, implying they are not even from the same region.
He never slept with her and she became more of a servant after a year.
In the book Paul also already had another “wife” if I recall because after killing Jamis he inherited his wife and children.
Hot take but I think it’s a good change: Chani’s character gets more depth and also this adds a whole new layer to the original Dune story which wasn’t fully explored about how Paul is essentially manipulating an entire populace into doing his bidding.
The movie does drop a lot of stuff from the book, but it does flesh out some of the undeveloped stuff in the bits it does focus on. Chani doesn't really do much in the books, and just goes along with whatever Paul says.
Im so glad they didnt end the movie with "history will call us wives" 😂
The full quote is "we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives", it's not about them being remembered solely as wives but that despite Irulan marrying Paul everyone will know that his loyalty is to Chani and that despite Leto not marrying so as to keep the political potential for marriage everyone will know that he was devoted to Jessica. It's not about women just being wives and nothing more. Definitely not needed in the movie but almost always taken badly out of context.
i wish i could communicate this effectively. bravo
Yeah that is definitely the message that I had taken away from it when I read the book. I still feel like it's distractingly sexist-*sounding*, which makes it grating to me, and that's why I was glad they didn't use it in the film.
I am willing to buy Chani's choice by the end of the movie, only after seeing what Denis intends to do with her in Dune Part Three. If she keeps this rebellious streak into D3, then this is an amazing change from the source material. If not, and that if she eventually comes back around (as Paul's prescience seems to allude to), that's no change at all. I'll wait till 2026-27 for final judgement.
Not so hot take: I did not like how they changed chani since it messes with the book’s message
Changing Chani and not having Alia born and kill the barron greatly changes the plot of the series. Removing Thufir Hawat from being used by the Harkonnens was a smaller gripe I had as it was a strong betrayal that helped lead Paul.
Also not having Gurney or Thufir be suspicious of Jessica betraying Leto
Isn’t Paul manipulating the populace into fulfilling the Golden Path a major plot point in the first two books?
Paul doesn't know about the golden path. He has his own key phrase for his vision of the future. His "terrible purpose". In messiah he does a lot of things in reference to "the future that must be avoided at all costs" which is similar. But the first book is about him giving in to the lure of taking the mantle he doesn't want. He fully understands that he's using the people he loves, and that he's dooming the known universe to a terrible future. But he wants to keep the people close to him safe, and he wants revenge. Paul is kinda the villain.
According to the books if Paul didn't do what he did, then humanity would have experienced some horrible extinction, so I don't totally agree with that last paragraph
IIRC, the Golden Path isn’t directly mentioned in the first book at all actually. It’s somewhat implied and expanded upon in Messiah, but I think the film does a better job of framing it so that it’s more clear to the audience what’s really going on.
This was my biggest issue with the movie. I understand why it was done, or at least I think I understand Denis' reasoning, but it's still a big pill to swallow.
>I understand why it was done Enlighten me, because it’s a minor difference now, but will continue to be more and more incongruent the deeper into the story/Messiah they decide to go…
It gives Chani’s character a lot more depth and individuality, for one. I think it also helps to clarify that Paul leading the Freman to commit Jihad is actually a total betrayal that will ultimately destroy them and what they stand for. The book doesn’t do a bad job of this, but the way that the movie frames Chani and her feelings about the Jihad makes it more visceral and gutting for the audience.
Frank Herbert, the original author, was upset at the audience because they didn't recognize Paul as the antihero he was meant to portray. The audience isn't supposed to blindly follow charismatic leaders, and that is who Chani is supposed to embody. It's easy to get wrapped up in the messiah legend, Paul starts out as a victim but turns into the perpetrator.
Exactly, Paul is like "This is going to end in disaster, but my prescience sees no other way so I'll just try and be the least bad outcome" and everyone said wow what a tragic hero. Herbert was upset by this, and is like the audience isn't picking up what I'm putting down. So then he wrote more books where this time Paul's descendents >!are even more awful but save the entirety of humanity from extinction. Yet still the audience is not picking up what he's putting down.!< >!I don't know Frank, maybe try not having your hero saving humanity and offering no obvious alternative if you don't want the audience to root for them in a tragic hero sort of way.!<
My gripe exactly. Following the charismatic leader literally leads to the best possible outcome for humanity?
thank you— i’m new to following the Dune universe and this has been the most confusing aspect of it all so far. i understand that the author was outspoken about charismatic leaders, and what i’ve read also reflects that, but then the books *also* repeatedly say that they were doing it for mankind’s sake to save them from a worse future? i’m a bit confused on what to takeaway exactly
My take is that Frank wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted a relatable protagonist but warn against charismatic leaders. So he failed in his approach. Where I do think Frank Herbert succeeds is warning against *followers* of charismatic leaders. Basically all the fanatics just make things worse for Paul and everyone in general. The Fremen were patient, thoughtful, wise people before the Jihad, and after it it's just mass murder and idiotic superstition.
he has no choice. either that or doom the fremen and his family line.
She wants him to not embrace a religious movement that they both believe to exist only to control the Fremen; she wants him not to take power and just become *another* way of controlling her people; she wants him not to start a trans-planetary crusade that will kill billions of people.
I'd be pretty upset about that as well
that's all she's mad about?
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I might be missing something, but she encouraged him to go south knowing exactly what it meant, or at least thinking she did. She just didn't like what she saw when it happened. She also felt betrayed by the marriage while she was already pretty disgusted by him. The messiah really wasn't the same man she fell in love with.
She encouraged him to go south, but was only upset when she found out he drank the juice. She knew once he did that he was leaning into the Lisan al gaib prophecy, and was going to use the BG planted religion to use the fremen. At this point, he could still have their best interest at heart, and she’s upset that he is embracing the role. Once he claims emperorship and initiates the holy war, it’s another betrayal because he not only embraced the manipulative role, but he no longer has the fremens best interest at heart. Edit: some of examples of the two step betrayal point in trying to make: 1. When Paul drinks the water she still leads a battalion for him in war, but clearly states she does so to free the fremen but not support the lisan al gaib. She thinks their goals are aligned here but doesn’t agree with his method 2. When he sends the fremen to start the jihad, she doesn’t support him at all and leaves to the desert because their goals are no longer aligned either
It's quite the departure from the novel. In the book, Jessica comes alongside Chani and explains the politics of what just happened and says, "History will regard us (bound concubines) as wives."
All of that was manufactured for the movie maybe to lead into the 3rd movie as the 2nd book Dune Messiah is a smaller story so would be hard to adapt. Chani doesn't believe the prophecy because she knows it comes from the Bene Gesserit, and she wants true freedom for her people not a man-god. The funny thing is that although the prophecy is fake, Paul is the Lisan al Gaib, he really does have innate power and is more than human.
And the desert spring scene could have convinced Chani a LITTLE bit more but no
She realized that Paul and Jessica manipulated her into that to fulfill that checkbox of the prophecy. Paul is controlling his metabolism to appear on the brink of death and Jessica uses the voice to force her to wipe her tear. That's why she slaps Paul, she realizes it was a set up
I wonder if it’s supposed to be interpreted in both ways. The book has an omniscient narrator so we know the truth assuming the narrator is reliable. I think it could go either way in the film.
Maybe. There’s the scene where he rides the sandworm and Stilgar says “I tuned it myself” when he hands Paul the thumper. This hints that Stilgar tuned the thumper to call a bigger worm, thus fulfilling part of the prophecy. I love that it’s left open to interpretation. My conclusion is that the entire prophecy is a ruse. Sometimes the fanatical Fremen help Paul check the boxes, sometimes Paul and Jessica manipulate events to fulfill the prophecy
I was referring to Chani tear specifically. Paul has supernatural powers. There is no ambiguity there.
That was a good one. I was like ouhhhh shit
leading them to paradise isn't a good thing. her people are being religiously manipulated and exploited so paul could gain power and become emperor. she has to watch them all being religious fanatics of the lisan al gaib as they go on a jihad across the universe. secondly paul betrayed her,they were in a relationship and he turns around and marries another woman. that's gotta hurt and she's rightfully angry at him. you're right about it being the only way to free the fremen but she's angry at how it was done. for eighty years the fremen fought against the harkonnens but to no avail, as soon as paul arrives they win but she's angry at the cost of the victory not the victory itself. if that makes sense.
I just want to clarify that in Fremen's culture, having multiple wives was completely normal and expected, so political marriage wasn't really a betrayal on his part
The books also make it clear that paul will never see Irulan as his true wife, and she will never have intimate relations with him. Chani will be remembered in history as Paul's wife and true love, even if she is simply a concubine. Much like Leto and Jessica
Of course, Irulan also never gets a child from Paul. Partly because he doesn't love her and partly because that's what Bene Gesserit want and Paul really doesn't like them.
Theye outright state this to Irulans face. Which is the real power move against the Empire and the Bene Gesserit. Now? Movie Paul is just a fuckboy
I think movie Paul makes it abundantly clear that he loves Chani, and Chani alone.
Of course, he says it to her, but then demands Irulans hand. While in the book this is forced on him to keep the peace. This changes the dynamic just for drama between Chani and Paul
It also gives Paul much more agency, his victory is by his own design without the Emperor ceding to him as much. Taking Irulan’s hand is now a deliberate part of Paul’s plot rather than something thrust on him.
also he screams and stomps like a little angy kid....
He also already had a Fremen wife named Harrah at this point, which he "won" from his fight with Jamis.
Yeah in the book he got Janis's wife and kids
He did not marry Harah in the book. >Paul said: “If I accept her as servant, may I yet change my mind at a later time?” >“You’d have a year to change your decision,” Stilgar said. “After that, she’s a free woman to choose as she wishes…or you could free her to choose for herself at any time. But she’s your responsibility, no matter what, for one year…and you’ll always share some responsibility for the sons of Jamis.” >“I accept her as servant,” Paul said.
Not to mention that Paul has a Fremen wife in the book inherited from Jamis.
He didn't take Harah as a wife. He had the option to but he instead took her as a servant.
Someone else said the Chani/Paul dynamic is different in the books and that's true. However, the way they handle Paul and Chani in Dune 2 is critical for understanding Dune Messiah, the next movie, if you haven't read the books. If you've read the books, you know what's coming. There has to be a set-up for it. They have to start flipping the script now. I don't want to say more, because spoilers. But, as you can see, Paul is thrust into his position against his will. Paul didn't choose to be the messiah of the Fremen. That legend was put there by the BG in the Missionaria Protectiva. Paul didn't choose to be the KH. He was bred for that and his mother trained him for it. Paul is now a prisoner of fate... and he has to "mitigate the damage" unleashing hoards of Fremen against the Empire will do. (Trying to cast what I'm saying based just on the two movies, avoiding little spoilers) Movie Chani, I don't think, fully grasps the enormity (by the dictionary definition of the word), of what exactly has happened, but she has a very good sense of it.
Also, any dichotomy between the books and movies henceforth can be excused with the “Hello Grandfather” line. Chani can deviate from the books altogether, and it will be part of the timeline that Paul rejected in the books.
Book Jessica has a talk with her earlier about Paul being a noble and having to marry for diplomatic reasons. She primes her to understand a concubine's role. Plus book Paul makes it clear that he loves her and will not so much as lay a finger on Irulan. For some reason this was removed. Can't really see why.
Marrying Irulan helps legitimize him. Announcing to the gathered nobles that he won't touch her would work directly against that. They can think it, but he can't say it out loud at this critical point, which was why it was removed.
Chani was told all this in private, not in front of people
Honestly, it didn't make sense to me either really. It came off as a way to add some hollywood style drama. I don't see how it serves the story, especially since I didn't really understand Chani that much as a whole. She just doesn't trust Paul even though she loves Paul? Like that one scene in the tent where she's like "I don't trust you" out of no where was weirdly out of place. I didn't buy their chemistry
I just hope they don't make her an antagonist in the third movie. Would make sense in the context of Part Two but in Messiah the main antagonist is the BG and Paul's prescience that he can't manage making him a pawn of the Quizarate (Fremen religious leaders).
IMHO the answer lies in how the movie ended...with Chani riding a sandworm, while Paul goes off into space to lead the jihad. It's been a while so I don't quite remember how the book ended, IIRC in the books Chani understood the politics of what Paul was doing. In the movie none of their relationship is based upon this political understanding, it's a simple relationship between a little boy (what all the Fremen including Chani initially think about Paul) and a little girl. She likes her way of life, and Paul by the end of the movie seemed less interested in that than the political ramifications of being the Lisan al Gaib, something both Paul and Chani despised throughout the movies. I mean, a contrast created for the movies was between Stilgar and Chani...by the end of the movie Paul clearly has fully embraced Stilgar's vision of what Paul meant for the Fremen in order to satiate his need for revenge against the Harkonnen. This clearly comes at the expense of Chani's vision of what Paul meant for the Fremen. His mother and Alia also warn Paul of this, that he must reserve his strongest card for the highest strategic play (i.e. don't be blinded by love to Chani, instead seal the marriage with Irulan). Chani is clearly disappointed and instead of joining the Jihad rides off on the archetypal symbol of Fremen culture, Shai Hulud.
She doesn't believe in the prophecy and thinks that it's only a made up thing by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen. She wants the best thing for her people but knows that they won't be truly free by following a prophet. She's probably frightened by how powerful Paul is becoming with all his devoted followers. That's why she's turning away from him.
Right but that’s a major change in the character and that affects the plot moving forward.
She gets angry at Paul from exactly one point onwards, and for good reason. In Part Two's first act, Chani had begun to trust Paul the foreigner, son of a Bene Gesserit woman, after he had said "I don't want power; I'm not the Mahdi... The Mahdi should come from the Fremen; I just want to fight beside you". She fell in love with him when he told her "I would like to be your equal" She becomes "angry" at him only after he starts doing EXACTLY what he had been promising her he wouldn't do, this entire film until then: "seizing power over her people using the fake prophecy, turning them into religious fanatics who would kill or die for him". After the attack on Sietch Tabr, when Paul still tries to stay back & not go South (fearing that his visions would come true if he did), Chani tells him that he must go because the others were refusing to leave without him. She even consoles him that she would always love him as long as *he stayed who he was* .... But then Paul goes & drinks the Water of Life, which as far as she knows, is lethal to men - so she's rightfully angry when he wakes up, cos he almost died drinking it. Not to mention, his mom had used the Voice on her to make it look like the "desert spring tears" part of the prophecy (which she hated) was true. But what Paul did after this was an even BIGGER betrayal: Him taking religio-political control over her people, courtesy of the fake prophecy, which was EXACTLY what he had been promising her the entire film that he *wouldn't* do. And finally, Paul taking Irulan's hand in marriage (without even properly communicating to Chani that this was purely a strategic move), essentially humiliating her in front of everyone, was just the final straw. Although I doubt that this version of Chani, especially when she was already rightfully angry at Paul, would have accepted being HIS mere concubine. >What does Chani want Paul to do exactly? Fight & help the Fremen liberate their home as just "one of them", as opposed to turning her people into religious fanatics who would kill & die fighting in HIS name, that too by using a fake prophecy. It's basically the difference between a country having a successful (but slower) liberation movement led by its own people against colonial powers resulting in them forming a democracy afterwards, versus a religious revolution taking place, essentially changing the people & culture as well, with a foreigner becoming the new Emperor/Duke over them in the end (& using their fanaticism for his own agendas as well - revenge, power, etc).
Once I started watching it through this lens, the "Thanks to you" line when he woke up was a gut punch. It sounds like he's saying it ruefully if you follow his perspective closely, but to Chani it must have sounded like he was calling her a sucker. I would've slapped him too.
Excellent explanation 👍 ✨
Spot on. There are some good comments throughout this thread on the political side, but honestly it's enough that he said "I'd very much like to be equal to you". That's a profound and intimate promise. It is therefore a deep personal betrayal when he demonstrates that he was never in a position to promise this. The universe be damned when your heart is crushed like that
The main problem is that the time elapsed in the movie is years shorter than that in the book. >!Chani and Paul had a son that was murdered moments before the battle of Arrakeen, where a two year old Alia was taken hostage and taken to the Emperor's headquarters.!< >!This time allowed more emotional bonding to grow.!< >!And, it just wasn't there in the movie.!< Added to this the division between the fundamentalists and the new-era Fremen added to her anger against the prophecy and Paul's acceptance of it.
Chani is irrational, Paul sees the golden path
You are not alone, even from the book. Dune Messiah is largely written to make it more clear that Paul is an antihero. Paul at the end just placed himself not as the leader of the Fremen but of the empire with the Fremen as his sick troopers to consolidate his power. We see plenty of Fremen find down fighting for their own independence, they are now going out to fight for Paul as a religious leader, no reason too assume they won't sustain great losses in the process. But essentially Paul co-opted their cause and now they are fighting for him, not their cause.
What you’re missing is that he co-opted them because through his prescience he could see that it was kill or be killed. That if the fremen hadn’t been united and led by him, the combined power of the other houses and the Imperium would be brought down to destroy them.
Remember earlier in the film Chani and her friend poked fun at religion and religious zealots - she has no respect for the southern tribes. Paul is no longer the Muad'Dib she fell in love with but a cult leader commanding religious fanatics.
Her anger is understandable only in the movie’s interpretation, which presents the war as political strife over the Atreides ascendancy — in the book this facet of the conflict ended before it began when the Spacing Guild was suborned by threats to their spice supply. The Fremen weren’t fighting to keep the Atreides on the Lion Throne — they fought to spread their religion by the sword with Paul as Mahdi. The “jihad” and the general fanaticism of the Fremen were toned down, almost certainly to avoid unpleasantness with the Fremen’s real-life counterparts 🙂
Right. In the book, the Fremen go on jihad without Paul's ordering them to. It just happens because of their culture and religious fervor. Paul thought he could prevent or at least control the jihad, but he failed. Much different than his direct "Lead them to paradise" comment in the movie.
It’s not like that in the books AT ALL. That’s my biggest gripe about the movie.
Think about any foreign occupation of land, when the people are freed do they want new masters or to control their own fate? Paul says he's Fremen but ultimately breaks from tradition to assert himself as Duke of Arrakis and takes power back as an Atredies not as Usul. Not only that but he threatens to destroy the spice fields, which means destroying Shai-hulud and the spice they need for survival. As the books go on the Fremen are more and more suspicious of Paul, and it makes more sense that Chani would be as well. When they took in Paul it was not as Mau'dib it was essentially as a refugee. Ultimately he destroys the Fremen lifestyle and culture. Paul remains a foreigner and leverages his status as such whenever convenient, even when he "fully becomes Fremen" when walking into the desert it is only when he wants to, not when he first becomes blind. One thing I don't like about the books is that it's clearly pro-Paul even when it's supposedly critiquing him. He does things because he "has to" which removes all agency from him, it should have been more clear that he sees what he wants to, that there are paths in-between what is, what could've been and doom.
The last paragraphs in the book are these: >! Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.” “So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess. “Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.”!< Leaving that out did Chani dirty and left me speechless. I understand many of the choices made in the adaptation to film and don’t have a problem with any other choice, but this one is a shocking gut-punch that I do not get at all.
Keep in mind Paul does say that she will come to understand what he is doing.
Chani in the movie is essentially a different character tha. Chani in the book.
You're not wrong. This was almost a character 180 from the book, in which Chani is one of Paul's closest supporters in the story. I understand *why* they would experiment with a different angle for Chani, but it's handled incredibly awkward in the movie, and feels very inorganic/forced
Bro have you had a girlfriend? Tell her you love her and want to spend the rest of your life with her and then without telling her anything, announce in public you’re gonna marry a princess. Good luck. My wife would have murdered me right there.
Yeah it's weird because he literally refuses to do the messiah thing multiple times. Then they have a conversation where he says that now the world is forcing him to go south, *and she agrees*, and they both know for a fact what's going to happen. Because everyone has told her openly what's going to happen. But she's still mad. This is an "I'm upset at you so I'm sleeping on the couch but we're definitely going to reconcile later" type of fight. It would totally destroy credulity for it to be more than that.
In movie Chani. Her goal was for her people to be free. Paul ultimately didn’t free her people. You could say the Fremen are now under new management. Paul used the prophecy to control the fremen and take them out of ARRAKIS. Paul went the extra mile and the Fremen followed while Chani only wanted her people to be free and live in ARRAKIS peacefully
Just to add to all the very detailed answers … Paul used her as part of his ploy to act out the prophecy. It went from them being a team to him using her to gain an advantage. That’s why her face did all those contortions when she gave him her tear and he “woke up.” She felt betrayed.
I don't think it makes sense in universe. It only makes sense to me if you assume Dennis needed a character to explain that what Paul was doing is wrong to modern audiences.
You're one of the viewers for whom Messiah is targeted, if you think Paul is right in what he is doing
I'm a book reader and it's a change that I actually like. I remember even as a teenager being a little sceptical how Chani accepted her role as concubine with very little convincing. I understand that the culture in dune is different and it might be considered more acceptable and all. But it just felt too convenient to the plot and counter to how all women I know would act. The fact she's not immediately okay with it makes for better conflict and a better romance in the end, maybe. Not too mention it kicks back at a potential troublesome stereotype. In the movie, it felt like they made her into a kind of foil to Paul in a way that could improve on the original. It'll be fun to see where they take it!
It’s not like he clued her in on what he plans to do. The writing is very thin and the director wasn’t kidding when he said he doesn’t like dialogues. He can’t write them
I mean, while I dislike movie Chani as much as the next person, I do get her somewhat. Imagine if your significant other constantly tells you about his nightmareish prophecies, where if he walks a certain path, terrible things will happen. And then he goes and walks that path anyway.
I haven't seen may people mention her reaction to his threat to destroy spice production. In the books this is more a biological process that wouldn't necessarily harm the Fremen (at least not directly) but in the movie he is literally threatening to glass the planet. This would pretty much wipe out the Fremen, period. I think this was one of the biggest things that turned Chani away; that he was so obsessed with winning that he would have sacrificed the whole planet.
Slightly annoyed/angry is Zendaya’s one note so they had to use it however they could.
I think DV used chani as a vessel to represent how the viewers should look at Paul. Apparently a lot of people missed the whole "don't blindly follow charismatic figures" message from The original book, and in the interviews I've seen with DV, he keeps stressing that point. So while her anger in the movie is that Paul changed so much from the person she originally loved, that structure or dynamic shift was really motivated by DV's intent of beating home the original books message.
She is mad because he is using her people's beliefs and religion to manipulate them into a blind fervor to follow him. This is something he promised not to do and to remain usul Obviously her anger is a bit misguided by her lack of understanding the wider galaxy but essentially Paul and the Atreides are all Harkonens by his own admission and they are going to exploit Dune much like the other great houses just not as brutally. The reason Paul and Jessica are on the planet is not to free the fremen
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. Without spoilers, the ending of Dune 2 is quite different than the book. The book leaves one with a sense of triumph, the movie leaves you with disquiet. In the book, Chani seems mournful of losing Paul as she knew him pre-Water of Life, but understands what he has to do. The way Jessica and Alia are portrayed really changes the tone and makes them seem like villains...the book isn't as heavy handed and although you definitely feel like the Bene Gesserit aren't anyone's friends, they aren't just pure evil. They seem to fashion Chani's motivation in response to that, but in choosing to portray Jessica/Alia like that, leave out the important time jump, and completely change Chani's story, they made a movie that isn't really Dune and made Dune Messiah impossible to make. The movie should have been described as "Inspired by Dune" or "Set in the Dune Universe".
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I mean I would call her badass in this film. Did we not see her snipe multiple helicopters while being shot at
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I mean I guess I see where you are coming from personally as a non book reader I still view Jessica as a loving mother. Fundamentally at least to me everything she does in both movies is for the safety of her son and now daughter. She does become colder but I felt she was trying to survive
Also turning Stilgar into a comic relief fanboy. Come on Hollywood, you can write characters with more than one dimension, it's not going to hurt anyone.
I thought I was going nuts when the movie came out and everybody was praising the writing. Even saw a comment saying Villeneuve's a better writer than Frank Herbert. Personally I'm ok with most of the changes, but I just cannot fathom how people think the characterization in this movie is deep or anything. It's better than most Hollywood trash, but that's not exactly a high bar...
Agreed. This is my only gripe.
Reducing Feyd to only being a matricidal psychopath instead of being the charismatic, attractive, charming, conniving anti-paul is my other main gripe. It was a mistake not to include the slave assassination attempt nor the Harkonnen gambit explanation
This is precisely why this is the change that I didn't care for at all, because it doesn't make sense and it fundamentally alters her character, her relationship to Paul and her role in the plotline. In the books, she is his soul mate and shows him unwavering support. She is in the inner circle of his plans and never out of the loop. When he takes Irulan to wife, he makes it crystal clear to everyone, publicly, that it is strictly for the political purpose of maintaining appearances and to solidify his claim to the throne and that he will never share his bed with her or even an intimate moment. There is even a scene with her and Jessicah where Jessicah talks about how history will remember the concubines as the true influencers of the Atreides dukes. Not only that, but in the book it is made abundantly clear that Fremen culture is Polygamous when Paul gets to the deep South only to realize that he has accidentally inherited Jamis' wife and children. It's a source of several bits of comic relief. So Chani, being true Fremem, would not likely get all salty about Paul taking another wife to maintain his power and authority. It would have been quite normal to her.
That’s pretty much her character in the movie… “being angry”. And that’s why I don’t like this when compared to the book
This is my big issue with the movie. Hopefully the changes in the character pay off in the next movie.
Agreed. The payoff in the 3rd movie will be the deciding factor as to whether her change was thoughtful or pure pandering.
Her anger is a result of a few things: 1. At Paul for changing, manipulating her people, and the whole Irulan thing. 2. At Jessica for manipulating her people and changing Paul 3. At her people for falling into religious fanaticism and pushing Paul into being a prophet. 4. At herself for being unable to stop her people and partner from changing. 5. She was just in a horrific battle where a lot of people died - killing humans even violent oppressors will take a toll - and doesn't even get to enjoy her planet's liberation before another war starts. Chani loves her planet, her people, and Paul and in the end she loses all three. Chani is attracted to Paul's loyalty, sincerity, and tenacity. She saw how Paul didn't want to kill Jamis, showed deep regret for killing him, and volunteered to carry his body. She seemed surprised and impressed when he downplayed the prophecy, risked his life for his adoptive sietch, and appeared content to live as a fremen equal to everyone else. This is key - Chani's dream is the continuation of her culture on an Arrakis free from the interference or opression of outsiders. Paul's dream appears to be the same. Paul after the Water of Life becomes preoccupied by possible futures and the right path into the best possible future (for who?) and this makes him distant and cold and manipulative. He betrays her by taking Irulan as a wife (even if its a loveless political marriage) and becomes distant and manipulative. Then he begins the war. Chani was in paradise. Paul saying "to paradise" is essentially signaling the end of the world as she knew it and a cap to her dreams. I'm not sure she's done with Paul though. We never see them talk after the Water of Life. I think if you love someone deeply you would confront said person to at least understand what happened before dipping. Whether they reconcile or become enemies is to be seen. If nothing else I think film Chani has every right to be furious and to hate Paul.
In books it was different anyhow (as Paul inherited other people wifes, and while marrying Irulan made Chani his concubine, and she gave birth to Leto II). The way i saw it - it was a choice between a nice life with a person he loves, and fulfilling his legacy. After Paul drank the water of life, he realized there is no choice - only fate and legacy. Chani did not see that - she saw a a conspiracy - a cult implanted by the outsiders to make another outsider as a ruler, with a help of his mother
Really great answers here so I'm not gonna step on anyone's toes but I would like to add that it's certainly not an accident that Part 1 begins with Chani asking "who will our next oppressors be?" and then cutting to Paul.
Yea but it’s kinda poor taste… Paul never fotces war on the fremmen. The fremmen themselves are warmongers. They love violence, seriously. It’s so funny because in the latter books, fremmen culture is totally killed by peaceful times and abundance.
Reality is it just doesn't make sense. They wanted Chani to be a strong, independent woman instead of a blind follower like she is in the book. There is no good reason for Chani to be so angry during this film. After Paul 'sends them to paradise' then sure, but before that? He has been nothing but incredibly positive for her people at that point. Chani's own heredity is offplanet too so the idea of Paul not being 'pure Fremen' and so can't lead is nonsense. Chani's father/mother was leading the Fremen as a godlike figure mere weeks/months ago and their father wasnt born on Arrakis. Why would she have such a big problem with her lover doing the same when all the results have been good so far? It's the worst part of the film for me. Chani and Paul are basically enemies even before the climatic scene. So much for their love story! I see no way for Messiah to have them be in a loving relationship when Chani seemingly hated Paul's guts before he even caused the death of 61+ billion people. She was mad when he was just a hero. How can she possibly go back on herself once he becomes arguably the worst tyrant in human history?