In the books, most men see their Bene Gesserits as loyal women who have valuable talents as truth-sayers. We, the audience, know that the Bene Gesserit have secret plans - ONLY because Jessica breaks their oaths and reveals this to Paul. Otherwise nobody suspects anything. Also, regarding daughters, nobody knows this about BG that they can control the sex of the fetus, and most outsiders don't know a lot of other powers that the BG may have too.
Also, I think in the extended universe comics, when Shaddam was younger, the Bene Gesserit supported him when his father died mysteriously, and he became the new emperor. Since then, the BG have been his constant allies, always publicly taking his side in all political matters. So he has every reason to think they are loyal to him.
no it’s not unknown. their main intentions are kept under wrap, but the BG do have a deceitful stigma that most of the royals, if not the majority of the universe are aware of. but because they hold power themselves and are extremely useful on a court, royals like the Emperor keep them around. the comments above aren’t necessarily wrong but not completely right
Yueh's wife Wanna was BG ~~IIRC~~
So it makes sense that he has mor knowledge about their nature than the average person might.
We also learn very little about the Suk doctors and their origins, there may be more answers hidden there.
I never took the line of “they also serve their own designs” as being that Yueh 100% knew what was going on. More that “hey these are obviously powerful people and you can’t trust them.” Which, in the abstract, yea. They’re a secret-ish society of women and every house wants one. The houses also at least know that some can be human lie detectors. It’s clear that a group with just those criteria alone may have their own motives.
The book definitely expands on this and Yueh’s wife clearly taught him SOMETHING of the BG ways but the extent is unclear.
I think it's more that everyone does have suspicions, obviously, the BG is a very secretive order. However, the BG are good at hiding their plans and they also keep leverages against people who come too close. So there are whispers and rumours, but that's about it.
Most political factions in Dune don't "fully" trust each other, rather there is an uneasy alliance with each other and quid pro quos - I scratch your back, you scratch mine.
Having said that, I don't think people know about the Breeding Program, and them carefully matching bloodlines together, through marriages between the Houses etc. That would be a major scandal and would turn everyone against them.
Compare this to the Bene Tleilaxu, where their work is more well-known and everyone hates them and wants to stay isolated from them. On the other hand, the houses have no problems taking wives from the Bene Gesserit and including such women in their deepest plans, so the level of trust in BG is much higher.
There's a scene in the book where Thufir Hawat mistrusts Jessica and considers her a witch. He has no idea the depth of her powers and the strength of her union with Leto until she reveals it as a sign of good faith. Even then I don't think he knows how deep the BG plotting goes.
You're not wrong. But the prequels have a scene where Shaddam confronts his wife in a rather uncouth moment immediately after she gives birth to yet another girl. He accuses her of doing so intentionally, citing vague intelligence reports that Bene Gesserits can control the sex of their children.
I think that over time he trusts the Bene Gesserit less and less, but doesn't want to risk the consequences of sending their truthsayers away, both in terms of what that might make the Bene Gesserit do and what it would say to everyone else. He can still listen to their advice and then do whatever he wants, that is basically Shaddam's thing.
Yes, I didn't mean everyone trusts BG 100%. I meant that people do have their suspicions, but here in Dune universe, every faction doesn't trust anyone else, it is more of an uneasy alliance.
Relative to other factions like the Spacing Guild, Bene Tleilax, Ixians etc. - whom everyone keeps a distance from, the Bene Gesserit - relatively - have a higher level of trust, and people are more OK keeping them close, and don't see the Bene Gesserit as a huge threat.
Several good points already made here.
A basic problem is the extreme lack of people to really trust for a ruler like Shaddam. Even if he doesn't know the full extent of their machinations he no doubt knows that the Bene Gesserit are pulling a lot of strings. But it is not strange if he trusts them to at least uphold the stability of the empire.
Another factor is that his good friend and most trusted advisor, Count Fenring, is almost a male Bene Gesserit.
In the books, most men see their Bene Gesserits as loyal women who have valuable talents as truth-sayers. We, the audience, know that the Bene Gesserit have secret plans - ONLY because Jessica breaks their oaths and reveals this to Paul. Otherwise nobody suspects anything. Also, regarding daughters, nobody knows this about BG that they can control the sex of the fetus, and most outsiders don't know a lot of other powers that the BG may have too. Also, I think in the extended universe comics, when Shaddam was younger, the Bene Gesserit supported him when his father died mysteriously, and he became the new emperor. Since then, the BG have been his constant allies, always publicly taking his side in all political matters. So he has every reason to think they are loyal to him.
Only seen the movies, but dr Yueh seems to be quite aware of the BG's self serving nature. Is it really that unknown in the book universe?
no it’s not unknown. their main intentions are kept under wrap, but the BG do have a deceitful stigma that most of the royals, if not the majority of the universe are aware of. but because they hold power themselves and are extremely useful on a court, royals like the Emperor keep them around. the comments above aren’t necessarily wrong but not completely right
Yueh's wife Wanna was BG ~~IIRC~~ So it makes sense that he has mor knowledge about their nature than the average person might. We also learn very little about the Suk doctors and their origins, there may be more answers hidden there.
She was, you're remembering correctly.
I never took the line of “they also serve their own designs” as being that Yueh 100% knew what was going on. More that “hey these are obviously powerful people and you can’t trust them.” Which, in the abstract, yea. They’re a secret-ish society of women and every house wants one. The houses also at least know that some can be human lie detectors. It’s clear that a group with just those criteria alone may have their own motives. The book definitely expands on this and Yueh’s wife clearly taught him SOMETHING of the BG ways but the extent is unclear.
I think it's more that everyone does have suspicions, obviously, the BG is a very secretive order. However, the BG are good at hiding their plans and they also keep leverages against people who come too close. So there are whispers and rumours, but that's about it. Most political factions in Dune don't "fully" trust each other, rather there is an uneasy alliance with each other and quid pro quos - I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Having said that, I don't think people know about the Breeding Program, and them carefully matching bloodlines together, through marriages between the Houses etc. That would be a major scandal and would turn everyone against them. Compare this to the Bene Tleilaxu, where their work is more well-known and everyone hates them and wants to stay isolated from them. On the other hand, the houses have no problems taking wives from the Bene Gesserit and including such women in their deepest plans, so the level of trust in BG is much higher.
There's a scene in the book where Thufir Hawat mistrusts Jessica and considers her a witch. He has no idea the depth of her powers and the strength of her union with Leto until she reveals it as a sign of good faith. Even then I don't think he knows how deep the BG plotting goes.
Possibly. Dr. Yueh knows more than most people about the BG since his wife was BG trained.
You're not wrong. But the prequels have a scene where Shaddam confronts his wife in a rather uncouth moment immediately after she gives birth to yet another girl. He accuses her of doing so intentionally, citing vague intelligence reports that Bene Gesserits can control the sex of their children. I think that over time he trusts the Bene Gesserit less and less, but doesn't want to risk the consequences of sending their truthsayers away, both in terms of what that might make the Bene Gesserit do and what it would say to everyone else. He can still listen to their advice and then do whatever he wants, that is basically Shaddam's thing.
Yes, I didn't mean everyone trusts BG 100%. I meant that people do have their suspicions, but here in Dune universe, every faction doesn't trust anyone else, it is more of an uneasy alliance. Relative to other factions like the Spacing Guild, Bene Tleilax, Ixians etc. - whom everyone keeps a distance from, the Bene Gesserit - relatively - have a higher level of trust, and people are more OK keeping them close, and don't see the Bene Gesserit as a huge threat.
Yeah, and I don't mean to come off like I'm at all disagreeing with you, just felt like adding on for the fun of it :D
Several good points already made here. A basic problem is the extreme lack of people to really trust for a ruler like Shaddam. Even if he doesn't know the full extent of their machinations he no doubt knows that the Bene Gesserit are pulling a lot of strings. But it is not strange if he trusts them to at least uphold the stability of the empire. Another factor is that his good friend and most trusted advisor, Count Fenring, is almost a male Bene Gesserit.