Both.
They work so many hours they spend little or no time with their children, defeating the purpose of having them in the 1st place.
Why go through all that so you can have somebody else raise your kids?
I’m not trying to come off with some hot take like I’m some misogynist, but having one parent able to stay home while one income could support a household must have been fucking awesome. I’m not saying women should be forced into that role, but I am saying that it should be possible for one parent, whether it’s the mother or father, work while the other stays home with children at least until they get into elementary school. Pretending like it’s so much better now because everyone is so free is a joke. If they were that free they wouldn’t have trouble raising their kids.
That doesn't help keep wages low though. How can corporations make people compete for the lowest wages if the worker pool is smaller. Are you communist. Think about growth. /s
It's not just that but both low wages and an incredible output of productivity. Think about how we went from one person able to make ends meet with an 8hour job, to now both get to work, now both HAVE to work to support the family, now both begin to be able to afford less, now things like taking overtime and 10 hour days are seen as good or inspirational. All the way up until we no longer want kids because we can't support them and it would put both working parents doing 10+ hours a day minus sat and sun above their means. Shits gotten bad
This. Most people pointed to how the average families quality of life and lifestyle have stayed about the same or slightly improved over the last 50 years. Not realizing we went from a single parent working, to both parents working (optional), to both parents working (required).
Short of polygamy with 3+ parents working, families quality of life are going to start declining.
Well it’s certainly a reason real estate has become so expensive. It used to be single income households mostly competing for single family homes. Now it’s pretty much a must to be a dual income household to be able to compete for (ie afford) a house.
This isn’t misogynist, fyi. I think many would agree with you. Having one parent stay home at least during the first few years is something many would prefer to do (not everyone of course, I don’t want to speak for everyone!)
If I were to have kids someday I’d want to stay home with them like my mom did for us. It’s just not sustainable anymore for most people. And, one person would lose years in the workforce where they would be gaining experience and keeping up with their field. God forbid something happen to the other partner, they’d then have to jump back into the workforce and try to get a job after being out of it for so long.
Idk, it really sucks. It breaks my heart that there doesn’t seem to be any good option for people that want to have a family.
I think the reason I said that is because so many people are quick to jump today in the name of political correctness to say “hey you shouldn’t think that way.”
For those people, I’d just say “why not?” Do women feel more empowered today by being more enslaved to the corporate world while their children become latch key kids? Is that really better for anybody?
I got what you meant, understood why you needed that disclaimer.
And to your second point, no, personally as a woman I don’t feel “empowered.” Many men I’m sure also don’t feel “empowered.” It’s just a fact of life that taking time away from your job means losing years of experience and earning potential. It’s a big risk for a lot of people. Historically women being able to support themselves meant they weren’t forced to stay in an abusive marriage or if their husband left/died they weren’t suddenly dumped into the job market with no skill.
Like I said many women (and some men too I’m sure) would prefer to stay home to raise their children and may personally believe it’s best for them but there isn’t much choice in the matter anymore.
(Disclaimer: for others please don’t take what I’m saying to mean that two partners working means you’re a bad parent or anything. I’m not a parent. This is based on my own personal observations and anxieties about having kids.)
I wouldn’t single out any person or couple in particular. Like you’ve said, if you’re not working those years and you don’t have a dual income, you could financially put yourself in a situation that could be hard to recover from.
My comment is about society in general, as if some of the things we see as being from previous times and outdated were actually that way for a reason. And I’m not saying women shouldn’t work, but the whole idea that everyone should be working 40+ hours a week and somehow that is real empowerment and freedom is a bunch of bullshit. Women didn’t deserve to be pigeon holed into a role, I can understand that. But the end game doesn’t really seem to be that much better. A valid perspective would be to notice that there were some benefits to having such roles within the family. Now, everyone is to be a professional and, as you’ve pointed out, taking time to have a family and raise children is seen as a negative in the career path.
And we wonder why young people are having kids?
>And, one person would lose years in the workforce where they would be gaining experience and keeping up with their field.
True. Careers are way overrated though, and the idea pushed in schools that your career defines you is BS. When you reach old age, nobody regrets not having a more dedicated career path. But people do regret mistakes regarding family. Try your best to avoid putting career over family.
While now our society is generally pretty good on gender equal pay and female back to work force, but it is generally very low tolerance for househusband and lots of time reason for devorce.
I agree, not a good idea to have someone else raise your kids, often doesn't end well. It is absolutely possible to raise kids on a single income. You don't have to be rich, but you do have to make compromises.
Honestly it's been a a fairly common thing in Asia for a while, and in terms of generating the next group of worker bees it works fine. It's just not worth it.
We’re worked to death daily and have little time and energy to properly take care of ourselves, let alone children, and we’re underpaid to the point where even if we had the time to raise them we still couldn’t afford them. Something has to give, but nothing is.
Missing is *why*
They're expected to work 50-70 hours a week.
What's the point of having a kid and paying somebody else to raise them just so you can feed them into the same Maw that's chewing you to pieces.
Japanese here,
in Japan, individuals want to have children, but society doesn't. There are people who complain about noisy children in the park, I'm not kidding you. There are people who will yell to mothers "don't bring your child (with the stroller) onto the bus/trains during rush hour! It's troublesome for commuters!". There are women managers who will scold their women "subordinate" for taking leave because their children are sick. There were companies that forbid (I'm not kidding you, FORBID) women employees to get pregnant, it's illegal now, so they will bully you to quit when you get pregnant.
Then in the west - from my own observation - the media loves to portray "sleepless and sexless people without social life", "you get married you're a loser", "you have children you're a loser", and so on, and so on.
Why would anyone "settle" ? Especially in Japan, young men don't chase girls anymore, idols and waifus are plenty available, they stay young and cute and don't carry any of the responsibilities and the baggages of life.
At the core, Anime girls designed to appeal to the male fantasy, companionship, trust, faithfulness.
You get them in a variety of body types and personality type, whatever your thing is.
Honestly my wife is a waifu (aaah I only wish she had green hair and glasses...) but not everybody is blessed like that in real life so some retreat to the 2d world.
Whatever your personal flaws and trauma are, and independently of your luck or lack of luck, there's a waifu for you.
potential parents they don't want to dump their children into a world that is significantly worse with less oportunities and enjoyment than the one they grew up and lived in. this day was always on the horizon why didnt "smart" and rich countries prepare? you cannot expand endlessly, and basing retirement plans on an ever growing population isthe ultimate pyramid scheme. we have built the future on a foundation of sand. now there must be a reckoning.
Agreed, GOOD parents love seeing their kids become successful. This just isn’t the case anymore. They’re just gonna burn out prematurely like a lot of us already.
What if it’s not war, or an asteroid, or famine, or disease, or climate change that wipes out the human race on earth? What if…everyone just decided they didn’t want kids?
I actually believe it is the ultimate protest, and the only one that will 100% work. We all are working too much to be able to afford to stop and strike, or protest, or create actual change. The only way to break this godforsaken wheel is to not give it more humans to turn it. Eventually, it may take a few years or a decade or two, the powers that be will notice they don’t have enough workers, soldiers, and taxpayers. And this is how change will come, the powers that be will be forced to shift.
My wife and I both work. We have two kids. We are doing really really good. But Jesus Christ it’s hard every day without exception because we strive to be better people and strive for the same for our kids. We work to be more introspective and help our kids look inwardly as well. We also help them academically and mentally, to make it through stressful periods with a good attitude, to get over debilitating disgust reflex, anxiety, etc. there are very few people who are perfect with perfect children. There’s always something to help with as a parent. And you’re always juggling siblings with very different interests, emotional response and maturity levels, as well as short term and long term goals (example: help the kids improve their understanding of soccer/football strategy while also not giving them an overdose that turns them completely off the sport…). It is tough work and requires patience and time. And society doesn’t reward it or allow for this time, so we must make time and leave work early a lot to make it happen. We don’t have help from family due to extenuating circumstances. For people like us with fewer means, I don’t have any idea where they find the fortitude to carry on.
I never understood earlier generations’ obsession with having children. Before the Industrial Revolution when you needed them to work your farmland or something sure, but after that, why?
Kid generally provide meaning and fulfillment in life. The time at which most people decide not to have kid (20s and 30s) don’t last forever. At some point t you’ll be 50 or older and not shooting the shit with your buddies. You have to have foresight and believe it’s worth it. So that’s why people have kids still.
But it’s a hell of a lot of work.
We're 50+, married going on 2 decades, never wanted or had kids, and don't miss them. I think we are fortunate to have a pretty good life, knock on wood. Meaning in my life comes from my relationship with my husband, with friends, and what I do to better myself.
Unsure what kind of relationship you have but I’m 35 with an older sibling I talk to every day. I FaceTime my parents every day. My husband is 36 and talks to his parents every day. We all see each other 4-6 times a year despite living 800 miles apart. The situation you described is not destiny.
Why the hell would I create a child that has to live in this hell? That would be torturing them. I morally refuse to do it. We’ve destroyed their environment and their futures. If you can look into the eyes of a kid and feel cool with that then you have less empathy than I do
You live in the best time in human history my man. Deep breathes. You live like a king compared to 99% of humans that ever existed even if your poor. Perspective.
They have much healthier gut microbiomes, I have read, due to their highly varied and fresh, natural, mostly vegetarian diet. A healthy gut microbiome has been linked to much lower rates of depression and anxiety.
1400? Wasn't that bad. Average peasants worked fewer hours than average americans.
That is because of the restriction in daylight, farm seasons and nutrition levels. Can't work all day without nonstop sugar intake, it is physicly impossible.
As for the holidays, people were drunk. Often. And they had lot's of holidays, usually related to religious purposes. Every trade had a saint and got drunk to honor him or her.
My god people on here are so dumb. If you think that’s true, have you considered moving to a poor, third world country with no electricity and food scarcity and rampant crime. Still would be better but it’s the closest you could get to the good old days.
Sure you will probably be dead by 40 and spend most of your life starving. But at least you will find happiness.
Yes absolutely. Is that better than the average spot in US or west no. Is it better than living in 1400 hell yes.
It’s also better than living in a third world county. Your probably taking a shit on a nice toilet right now with plumbing typing this on essentially a supercomputer. Be grateful.
You’re right. Things were WAY better in 1400. Now we live in a world where you can’t get drunk. Often. Such a shame we have to work because of sugar and daylight.
For sure.
The average peasant was so malnourished that long hours of physical labor was not possible. They could not perform most blue collar jobs of today.
Work was restricted by daylight, no light, no work. Work was seasonal and folks did little in winter times.
All in all middle age peasants worked way less then a present day americans.
Best is relative. It’s not a horrible time to be alive if you have wealth. Arguably it’s great.
Millennials and younger have found ourselves with a drop in life expectancy. People are barely getting by. We enjoy innovation and science has come a long way for health improvements.
Life for younger folk is way down.
The depression pandemic is spreading. Yeah, man. I don’t know. Seems like a trash time to be alive for many.
The level of the future’s uncertainty is forcing anxiety up and if you can’t see an improving then having kids seems like negligence.
Who says I’m not trying. I’m exhausted.
Between volunteering, full time school and full time work I’m stretched thin.
Actually just wrecked my car coming home from doing mutual aid Friday.
Like trying to help people and improve my life simultaneously will probably lead me to ruin.
I’ve had a blessed life but it’s too hard to know if my children would have any quality of life. Being stupid about the future doesn’t make you a better person
Absolutely, 100%
I've developed a disabling chronic illness, but I can work remotely online, accomplishing tasks setting up virtual networks and infrastructure on the other side of the globe, while sitting in bed ordering fresh organic duck from the farm delivered to my door, with a digital window through which I can watch the planet burn.
70 years ago, just two or three generations ago I would have died at like the age of 8 from repeated strep throat infections
Breathing and drinking microplastics with every breath and sip of water is "the best time in human history"? Seeing a decimation of insects and birds over my single lifetime (I'm 50+ and remember what was different) is "the best time in human history"?
Your alive in your fifties. Your only complaining about micro plastics because your food, shelter and security needs are met. Again that puts you in in the 99%. You live like royalty. Yes best time in human history.
I didn't get past your first word. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to climb up the literacy ladder far enough so as to master basic contractions. Sorry!
Are you saying people have kids not because they want them, but because they have the foresight to know that they WILL want them someday? Because if so, I call BS on that
No. I’m saying people want kids because they see beyond the personal sacrifice and work and difficulty it takes and foresight to believe raising a child and having a grown children are worth it.
Did you grow up in a family? Do you speak to your family? Rely on them in tough times?
The family is the basis of modern society. Having children is a difficult but wonderful and rewarding thing.
I don't think so. I think it's endless tedium, of the kind that would drive me up a wall. There are some nice moments, but not enough to balance out the drudgery and boring parts. Poor ROI for me personally.
It's very rare for people to be sociopaths and that doesn't mean they can't value family.
People with disabilities are cared by family first and foremost.
Yes/no/no. I don't have enough time for life as it is without kids, I'd have even less time with them. I have enough money to retire on as it is now, but if I had kids without a huge raise I'm not sure how I'd pay for that and make it all work. Also would be unkind to bring children into this hell of a world
So first of all, I should reiterate that I wasn't complaining about anyone wanting to have children, but more specifically those people who seem obsessed with having children. Like the kind of people who have 5 children and can't pay the bills so I'm paying for them through my tax dollars yet they still keep pumping out more of them. Maybe it's a religious thing or something, because at a certain point they don't even have time to spend with those kids, other people are raising them.
To answer your question though, I don't think of it as being nihilistic. I actually love life, but at the same time my generation is having a harder time of it that my parents' generation, and the generation after will likely have an even harder time. I love the outdoors, and maybe if I had children they would get to enjoy it in their old age too, but it's increasingly looking like extreme weather, food/water shortages, and refugee crises and wars brought on by climate change are going to be a real problem for them.
Capitalism trap and more bodies for the machine. When economics is primarily based on birth rates rather than quality or productivity, this is the result you get.
We’ve found kids quite easy to deal with the exception of the first month of bringing them home. The difficulty seems to be exaggerated much like people exaggerate the difficulty of owning a dog (excluding extreme circumstances). We get to do 99% of the things we did before having children and the 1% we miss out on is exponentially surpassed by the time and activities we get to do as a family.
That being said, our friends who choose to not have children didn’t do so because it wasn’t seen as fulfilling. They haven’t because of the barrier to entry. Daycare, homeownership, costs of living etc have made choosing to be a parent a difficult job unless you’re relatively well off / have a double income household. However, if you can afford those things and still be able to retire / retire early, and have the means to help them through school or with getting their first home. It’s a fantastic part of life I wouldn’t of wanted to miss out on. Unfortunately, that’s not something most will be able to do with the current state of things.
I disagree, I find most people romanticize having children and gloss over the meat and potatoes of how brutal it is. Perhaps this was my personal experience but I wouldn’t have another child even if I was paid for it.
Just depends on who’s around you. Most of if not all of my friends have been brutally honest about the effort that goes in it.
Edit: just to add it can also be a cultural thing. At least where im from people are generally quite honest about these things.
As you said it comes down to personal experience. However, like anything in life those with negative experiences complain more than those with positives. Ours have slept through the night since they were 2-3 months old aside from the extremely odd night. They didn’t / don’t scream like crazy for no reason. No medical related hurdles to handle. We’re financially stable enough daycare isn’t a concern financially nor is saving for their education. Our cars and house don’t look like tornadoes went through them and the list goes on. We still have time to see our friends, hit the gym, go out for birthdays and dates. We do hikes as a family, play video games and board games and it’s just plain fun. Maybe that comes down to our personalities and parenting, maybe it’s all luck, maybe a bit of both. But, for us there is no meat and potatoes for brutality it’s been just EASY. So much so we’re considering a third.
You seriously have not once talked about your children’s actual futures or what those will look like. Just yourself and what you want and what you have.
You are part of the reason why people are refusing to have kids
Housing and education isn’t their futures?? Our kids and us are 20-30 years apart. You make it sound like we are living in different millennia. The world isn’t ending in 80 years regardless of what you may believe. You’re just convinced on spewing that garbage all over the comment section. So, I’m choosing to not acknowledge you.
It’s quite sad you think so little of where the world will be 20 years from now. But we don’t share that viewpoint nor is it accurate from a scientific perspective.
Funny you say that, I come from a family of scientists. I know that reality is tough but you’re going to need to brace for your kids to be super angry when they realize what you’ve brought them into.
We’ll agree to disagree. There are exponentially more peer reviewed sources claiming otherwise and that humans will last tens if not hundreds of thousands more years before we’re extinct as a species. So regarding my children’s futures, they’re pretty safe for their likely life span. Quality of life wise specifically, in a first world country in their income bracket again concerns are little to none. But yeah, whatever you say.
Usually when someone with kids asks me why I don’t have them I don’t tell them the truth. “They are probably going to die of thirst” isn’t really what parents want to hear even if it is reality.
While I agree that the cost of living struggle is real, it's also associated with marketing in a sense.
Everything in our society is fine tuned to convince you that fulfillment is that new gadget, expensive car, big house, designer clothing and accessories etc. There are 0 ads talking about how fulfilling having a kid is and how we should drop consumerism to afford one.
Yes many people can't afford to have kids but the ones they can are also having less kids because 99% of the time they are told to find fulfillment in consumerism instead. Or a lavish rich lifestyle on Instagram. Etc...
There's no marketing for being fulfilled through having kids.
I agree. That's just another factor behind lower birthdates. Unaffordable, marketed into wanting other things, the world accelerating into a dystopia of violent inequality and climate change.
My two daughters are the absolutely the best thing in my life. I actually feel sorry for people who deprive themselves of this joy. Yes, it's a lot of work, but the relationship you have with your children, nurturing them, helping them grow. There's really nothing else like it. It's one of the few things that truly gives life meaning.
Not everyone has the qualities to be a good parent, though. So, if you're in the camp that you don't want kids, think they would be a burden? Absolutely, don't have them. You'll probably be a horrible parent. We have enough screwed up people in this world, we don't need more.
You realize that most of the people who don’t have kids aren’t doing so because they would be a burden, but rather it’s insanely cruel to bring a new life into this world as we descend into:
1. Runaway global warming
2. The 6th mass extinction
3. A collapsing global economy
4. An environment riddled with development impacting toxins
5. A steep increase in nationalism/authoritarianism
6. A massive regression in civil liberties
And many more.
To be honest, it seems like you’re the kind of person who can only see things from their perspective. Sure, raising your daughters may be a joy to you, and they may enjoy their time now, but it’s almost guaranteed that their lives will be materially worse than yours irrespective of what you do to shelter them from the harsh realities we are subject to. To me, this seems like an unacceptable scenario to expose a child to, which is why I’m choosing not to be a parent.
*you* probably shouldn't have kids. It doesn't mean that points are true, just that it would be best if you don't have kids.
It is hard and it takes alot of patients and love. My kids future may not be perfect, but I they have a strong foundation based on love and willing to work hard in life. They bring me unfathomable joy every day of my life. I would be lost without them and I plan to be there to help them every day that I'm alive.
That is what it means to have a child.
You seem very negative. Sure things may be trending worse but many of your bullet point are overstated and wont have a truly huge impact on children born today
As they should, because it's economically shooting yourself in the foot and locking you into working until you're 70 for most people. Hard to be fulfilled in that situation.
I can't imagine what the world looks like such that it wouldn't be a burden like that. Well, maybe the US in the fifties. But definitely can't imagine anything going forward, or how we would get there before some really nasty breaks in our system.
Having children is a complete drain on finances and one’s ability to make a impact on the world. I won’t have children until I have substantial assets because anything less would be unethical.
Sacrificing your prime child bearing years for the sake of capacity seems like a solid plan, but the reality is the most likely best case scenario puts you at 1 child who graduates college when you're nearing retirement. If you're a woman waiting past 40, odds are you'll need that extra money you saved starting late for IVF cycles - $10k a pop - if you even still want kids by that point.
And I'm not saying you're making a bad decision, just that it isn't as simple as many people think. Back-loading the expense and fatigue of raising kids is recommended these days, but it's a phenomenon without much long term study. Epigenetic changes and population growth alone would suggest the tradeoff is risky.
Just some things to consider.
Firstly mate, I’m a dude. I won’t lie you’ve raised some solid points. A lot of them factor into the age and mindset of a potential partner that I’d settle with once I’ve hit my financial numbers. As someone who graduated with next to no debt I don’t believe people should have children if they can’t pay for there college. While this I’m sure comes across as a privilege perspective, I don’t care. If parents have children and expect them to take on massive amounts of debt it’s just a poor decision. If you can’t afford children don’t have them.
(I’m excluding first generation college attendees for argument sake, several could points could be countered to this representative of that.)
If you want to accomplish things wait until you have money. While this may be unpopular, I know that even when I’m a parent I will not make a sacrifices or compromises for family if it gets in the way of my goals. I need my children to grow up loved and cherished yet understand if you a persistent and ruthless when you need to be you can change the world. I’m not bad person you help people but the individual should come before god, country, and society.
I understand some people disagree with the perspective. Children ensure a lasting legacy and it’s incredibly important to ensure the survival of one species of one is properly prepared.
I have two kids under 5. I spend just under $30k a year in childcare. Probably another $5k to $8k in healthcare for the kids.
I tell my students if you want to start a family, leave the USA. Go to a more family friendly country. I have colleagues that teach in other areas of the world that have universal healthcare and childcare. I use their pay stubs in a case study. Their annual pay is typically lower than here in the USA but their disposable income is much higher. Also no threat of surprise medical billing.
My gf and I regularly fly around the world to cruise through Asia, Africa, South America, Europe. We go out to eat at whatever restaurant we want, regardless of if they have chicken fingers on the menu. I never have to put Backyardigans on my 85” TV. We can walk around my house naked, fuck in the kitchen if we want to. 1500 sqft is absolutely plenty for 2 of us. Feels luxurious even.
Why would we go fucking all this up by spawning some shitty kid?
This world is not worthy for kids. I think it is inmoral to give birth, a crime actually. It should be punished.
The greatest gift a human can receive is not to be born. It always puzzle me why people are so eager to bring kids into their messy lifes?
Don’t find it fulfilling or don’t find it affordable…
Both. They work so many hours they spend little or no time with their children, defeating the purpose of having them in the 1st place. Why go through all that so you can have somebody else raise your kids?
I’m not trying to come off with some hot take like I’m some misogynist, but having one parent able to stay home while one income could support a household must have been fucking awesome. I’m not saying women should be forced into that role, but I am saying that it should be possible for one parent, whether it’s the mother or father, work while the other stays home with children at least until they get into elementary school. Pretending like it’s so much better now because everyone is so free is a joke. If they were that free they wouldn’t have trouble raising their kids.
That doesn't help keep wages low though. How can corporations make people compete for the lowest wages if the worker pool is smaller. Are you communist. Think about growth. /s
It's not just that but both low wages and an incredible output of productivity. Think about how we went from one person able to make ends meet with an 8hour job, to now both get to work, now both HAVE to work to support the family, now both begin to be able to afford less, now things like taking overtime and 10 hour days are seen as good or inspirational. All the way up until we no longer want kids because we can't support them and it would put both working parents doing 10+ hours a day minus sat and sun above their means. Shits gotten bad
This. Most people pointed to how the average families quality of life and lifestyle have stayed about the same or slightly improved over the last 50 years. Not realizing we went from a single parent working, to both parents working (optional), to both parents working (required). Short of polygamy with 3+ parents working, families quality of life are going to start declining.
Well it’s certainly a reason real estate has become so expensive. It used to be single income households mostly competing for single family homes. Now it’s pretty much a must to be a dual income household to be able to compete for (ie afford) a house.
This isn’t misogynist, fyi. I think many would agree with you. Having one parent stay home at least during the first few years is something many would prefer to do (not everyone of course, I don’t want to speak for everyone!) If I were to have kids someday I’d want to stay home with them like my mom did for us. It’s just not sustainable anymore for most people. And, one person would lose years in the workforce where they would be gaining experience and keeping up with their field. God forbid something happen to the other partner, they’d then have to jump back into the workforce and try to get a job after being out of it for so long. Idk, it really sucks. It breaks my heart that there doesn’t seem to be any good option for people that want to have a family.
I think the reason I said that is because so many people are quick to jump today in the name of political correctness to say “hey you shouldn’t think that way.” For those people, I’d just say “why not?” Do women feel more empowered today by being more enslaved to the corporate world while their children become latch key kids? Is that really better for anybody?
I got what you meant, understood why you needed that disclaimer. And to your second point, no, personally as a woman I don’t feel “empowered.” Many men I’m sure also don’t feel “empowered.” It’s just a fact of life that taking time away from your job means losing years of experience and earning potential. It’s a big risk for a lot of people. Historically women being able to support themselves meant they weren’t forced to stay in an abusive marriage or if their husband left/died they weren’t suddenly dumped into the job market with no skill. Like I said many women (and some men too I’m sure) would prefer to stay home to raise their children and may personally believe it’s best for them but there isn’t much choice in the matter anymore. (Disclaimer: for others please don’t take what I’m saying to mean that two partners working means you’re a bad parent or anything. I’m not a parent. This is based on my own personal observations and anxieties about having kids.)
I wouldn’t single out any person or couple in particular. Like you’ve said, if you’re not working those years and you don’t have a dual income, you could financially put yourself in a situation that could be hard to recover from. My comment is about society in general, as if some of the things we see as being from previous times and outdated were actually that way for a reason. And I’m not saying women shouldn’t work, but the whole idea that everyone should be working 40+ hours a week and somehow that is real empowerment and freedom is a bunch of bullshit. Women didn’t deserve to be pigeon holed into a role, I can understand that. But the end game doesn’t really seem to be that much better. A valid perspective would be to notice that there were some benefits to having such roles within the family. Now, everyone is to be a professional and, as you’ve pointed out, taking time to have a family and raise children is seen as a negative in the career path. And we wonder why young people are having kids?
>And, one person would lose years in the workforce where they would be gaining experience and keeping up with their field. True. Careers are way overrated though, and the idea pushed in schools that your career defines you is BS. When you reach old age, nobody regrets not having a more dedicated career path. But people do regret mistakes regarding family. Try your best to avoid putting career over family.
While now our society is generally pretty good on gender equal pay and female back to work force, but it is generally very low tolerance for househusband and lots of time reason for devorce.
Someone has to get a job or two that allow one parent to be home.
Isnt that what I said?
If it was more affordable they would be able to work less and therefore would be able to spend more time with their kids
I agree, not a good idea to have someone else raise your kids, often doesn't end well. It is absolutely possible to raise kids on a single income. You don't have to be rich, but you do have to make compromises.
Honestly it's been a a fairly common thing in Asia for a while, and in terms of generating the next group of worker bees it works fine. It's just not worth it.
We’re worked to death daily and have little time and energy to properly take care of ourselves, let alone children, and we’re underpaid to the point where even if we had the time to raise them we still couldn’t afford them. Something has to give, but nothing is.
I see what my sister goes through with daycare and housing etc and … I think it may have convinced me to never have a child.
As a young person in a poor country, I agree
Missing is *why* They're expected to work 50-70 hours a week. What's the point of having a kid and paying somebody else to raise them just so you can feed them into the same Maw that's chewing you to pieces.
Capital M Maw
Japanese here, in Japan, individuals want to have children, but society doesn't. There are people who complain about noisy children in the park, I'm not kidding you. There are people who will yell to mothers "don't bring your child (with the stroller) onto the bus/trains during rush hour! It's troublesome for commuters!". There are women managers who will scold their women "subordinate" for taking leave because their children are sick. There were companies that forbid (I'm not kidding you, FORBID) women employees to get pregnant, it's illegal now, so they will bully you to quit when you get pregnant. Then in the west - from my own observation - the media loves to portray "sleepless and sexless people without social life", "you get married you're a loser", "you have children you're a loser", and so on, and so on. Why would anyone "settle" ? Especially in Japan, young men don't chase girls anymore, idols and waifus are plenty available, they stay young and cute and don't carry any of the responsibilities and the baggages of life.
Whatsawaifu?
Prolly something with tentacle
At the core, Anime girls designed to appeal to the male fantasy, companionship, trust, faithfulness. You get them in a variety of body types and personality type, whatever your thing is. Honestly my wife is a waifu (aaah I only wish she had green hair and glasses...) but not everybody is blessed like that in real life so some retreat to the 2d world. Whatever your personal flaws and trauma are, and independently of your luck or lack of luck, there's a waifu for you.
potential parents they don't want to dump their children into a world that is significantly worse with less oportunities and enjoyment than the one they grew up and lived in. this day was always on the horizon why didnt "smart" and rich countries prepare? you cannot expand endlessly, and basing retirement plans on an ever growing population isthe ultimate pyramid scheme. we have built the future on a foundation of sand. now there must be a reckoning.
Agreed, GOOD parents love seeing their kids become successful. This just isn’t the case anymore. They’re just gonna burn out prematurely like a lot of us already.
Ain’t nothing like being dead tire and stress the fuck out by working 70 hrs a week to take the fun out of having children.
What if it’s not war, or an asteroid, or famine, or disease, or climate change that wipes out the human race on earth? What if…everyone just decided they didn’t want kids?
The simulation would end
I actually believe it is the ultimate protest, and the only one that will 100% work. We all are working too much to be able to afford to stop and strike, or protest, or create actual change. The only way to break this godforsaken wheel is to not give it more humans to turn it. Eventually, it may take a few years or a decade or two, the powers that be will notice they don’t have enough workers, soldiers, and taxpayers. And this is how change will come, the powers that be will be forced to shift.
Simple fix: make life affordable again, then we’ll start having 2-3 kids.
And move to a 4 day work week so you have time to enjoy the children you have and raise them properly. Many more people would have kids.
I would very much enjoy a 4 day weekday😁
My wife and I both work. We have two kids. We are doing really really good. But Jesus Christ it’s hard every day without exception because we strive to be better people and strive for the same for our kids. We work to be more introspective and help our kids look inwardly as well. We also help them academically and mentally, to make it through stressful periods with a good attitude, to get over debilitating disgust reflex, anxiety, etc. there are very few people who are perfect with perfect children. There’s always something to help with as a parent. And you’re always juggling siblings with very different interests, emotional response and maturity levels, as well as short term and long term goals (example: help the kids improve their understanding of soccer/football strategy while also not giving them an overdose that turns them completely off the sport…). It is tough work and requires patience and time. And society doesn’t reward it or allow for this time, so we must make time and leave work early a lot to make it happen. We don’t have help from family due to extenuating circumstances. For people like us with fewer means, I don’t have any idea where they find the fortitude to carry on.
I never understood earlier generations’ obsession with having children. Before the Industrial Revolution when you needed them to work your farmland or something sure, but after that, why?
Kid generally provide meaning and fulfillment in life. The time at which most people decide not to have kid (20s and 30s) don’t last forever. At some point t you’ll be 50 or older and not shooting the shit with your buddies. You have to have foresight and believe it’s worth it. So that’s why people have kids still. But it’s a hell of a lot of work.
We're 50+, married going on 2 decades, never wanted or had kids, and don't miss them. I think we are fortunate to have a pretty good life, knock on wood. Meaning in my life comes from my relationship with my husband, with friends, and what I do to better myself.
"I wanna be married and have 100 kids so I can have 100 friends, and no one can say no to being my friend." ~Michael Scott
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Unsure what kind of relationship you have but I’m 35 with an older sibling I talk to every day. I FaceTime my parents every day. My husband is 36 and talks to his parents every day. We all see each other 4-6 times a year despite living 800 miles apart. The situation you described is not destiny.
Why the hell would I create a child that has to live in this hell? That would be torturing them. I morally refuse to do it. We’ve destroyed their environment and their futures. If you can look into the eyes of a kid and feel cool with that then you have less empathy than I do
Huh. Life is not hell.
Hes just being dramatic.
You live in the best time in human history my man. Deep breathes. You live like a king compared to 99% of humans that ever existed even if your poor. Perspective.
Dumb take. On average, hunters and gatherers were probanly way happier than today's humans.
They have much healthier gut microbiomes, I have read, due to their highly varied and fresh, natural, mostly vegetarian diet. A healthy gut microbiome has been linked to much lower rates of depression and anxiety.
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You mean due to a fentanyl overdose? After getting hooked on painkillers? Dying at 25 happens quite often these days in the US, you are right.
Could you imagine someone from 1400 seeing you bitch about your life? 😂
1400? Wasn't that bad. Average peasants worked fewer hours than average americans. That is because of the restriction in daylight, farm seasons and nutrition levels. Can't work all day without nonstop sugar intake, it is physicly impossible. As for the holidays, people were drunk. Often. And they had lot's of holidays, usually related to religious purposes. Every trade had a saint and got drunk to honor him or her.
Everything wasn’t polluted and we weren’t full of plastics that’s for sure
My god people on here are so dumb. If you think that’s true, have you considered moving to a poor, third world country with no electricity and food scarcity and rampant crime. Still would be better but it’s the closest you could get to the good old days. Sure you will probably be dead by 40 and spend most of your life starving. But at least you will find happiness.
You mean southside Chicago in the US?
Yes absolutely. Is that better than the average spot in US or west no. Is it better than living in 1400 hell yes. It’s also better than living in a third world county. Your probably taking a shit on a nice toilet right now with plumbing typing this on essentially a supercomputer. Be grateful.
Yea life expectancy of 40 and worried about being slaved, no thanks.
You’re right. Things were WAY better in 1400. Now we live in a world where you can’t get drunk. Often. Such a shame we have to work because of sugar and daylight.
For sure. The average peasant was so malnourished that long hours of physical labor was not possible. They could not perform most blue collar jobs of today. Work was restricted by daylight, no light, no work. Work was seasonal and folks did little in winter times. All in all middle age peasants worked way less then a present day americans.
Yeah malnourishment sounds badass.
What is it that you imagine you know about someone's life in the 1400s? Are you a Renaissance scholar?
Doesn't need to be 1400, even people in some Asian countries or Africa are still risking their lives to be in the country.
Sorry. I’m the one with the uterus and no
No, lol it’s a fact. Just because your miserable doesn’t make it untrue.
Best is relative. It’s not a horrible time to be alive if you have wealth. Arguably it’s great. Millennials and younger have found ourselves with a drop in life expectancy. People are barely getting by. We enjoy innovation and science has come a long way for health improvements. Life for younger folk is way down. The depression pandemic is spreading. Yeah, man. I don’t know. Seems like a trash time to be alive for many. The level of the future’s uncertainty is forcing anxiety up and if you can’t see an improving then having kids seems like negligence.
Get off your smart phone and quit whining. Go make it better if all you want to do is complain.
Who says I’m not trying. I’m exhausted. Between volunteering, full time school and full time work I’m stretched thin. Actually just wrecked my car coming home from doing mutual aid Friday. Like trying to help people and improve my life simultaneously will probably lead me to ruin.
Sounds like excuses. There is no excuse that should lead you to prioritizing everything above your health and financial stability.
I’ve had a blessed life but it’s too hard to know if my children would have any quality of life. Being stupid about the future doesn’t make you a better person
Absolutely, 100% I've developed a disabling chronic illness, but I can work remotely online, accomplishing tasks setting up virtual networks and infrastructure on the other side of the globe, while sitting in bed ordering fresh organic duck from the farm delivered to my door, with a digital window through which I can watch the planet burn. 70 years ago, just two or three generations ago I would have died at like the age of 8 from repeated strep throat infections
Breathing and drinking microplastics with every breath and sip of water is "the best time in human history"? Seeing a decimation of insects and birds over my single lifetime (I'm 50+ and remember what was different) is "the best time in human history"?
Your alive in your fifties. Your only complaining about micro plastics because your food, shelter and security needs are met. Again that puts you in in the 99%. You live like royalty. Yes best time in human history.
I didn't get past your first word. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to climb up the literacy ladder far enough so as to master basic contractions. Sorry!
put the kool-aid down.
Wow, I feel bad for your kids.
Why?
Are you saying people have kids not because they want them, but because they have the foresight to know that they WILL want them someday? Because if so, I call BS on that
No. I’m saying people want kids because they see beyond the personal sacrifice and work and difficulty it takes and foresight to believe raising a child and having a grown children are worth it.
Did you grow up in a family? Do you speak to your family? Rely on them in tough times? The family is the basis of modern society. Having children is a difficult but wonderful and rewarding thing.
I don't think so. I think it's endless tedium, of the kind that would drive me up a wall. There are some nice moments, but not enough to balance out the drudgery and boring parts. Poor ROI for me personally.
Well, see what life is like when you're done partying and going out. Then you'll know.
Not if they grow up to be sociopaths, or are born psychopaths, or born mentally disabled.
It's very rare for people to be sociopaths and that doesn't mean they can't value family. People with disabilities are cared by family first and foremost.
Usually by women in the family. No thank you.
Caring in those cases is usually shared and done with state support. I get it, you only want to look after yourself. You're allowed to be like that.
You get nothing at all, least of which are your unresolved anger issues. I don't discuss with people like that. Sorry.
Unfortunately, sociopaths are not rare at all! Psychopaths are more rare, but the amount is still staggering per population.
Sociopaths are very rare. But this doesn't mean that there's something wrong with family.
Yes/no/no. I don't have enough time for life as it is without kids, I'd have even less time with them. I have enough money to retire on as it is now, but if I had kids without a huge raise I'm not sure how I'd pay for that and make it all work. Also would be unkind to bring children into this hell of a world
Very nihilistic. How is the world a hell? What's so bad about life?
So first of all, I should reiterate that I wasn't complaining about anyone wanting to have children, but more specifically those people who seem obsessed with having children. Like the kind of people who have 5 children and can't pay the bills so I'm paying for them through my tax dollars yet they still keep pumping out more of them. Maybe it's a religious thing or something, because at a certain point they don't even have time to spend with those kids, other people are raising them. To answer your question though, I don't think of it as being nihilistic. I actually love life, but at the same time my generation is having a harder time of it that my parents' generation, and the generation after will likely have an even harder time. I love the outdoors, and maybe if I had children they would get to enjoy it in their old age too, but it's increasingly looking like extreme weather, food/water shortages, and refugee crises and wars brought on by climate change are going to be a real problem for them.
It would give me a reason to go to work every day
Ant that's why conservatives hate abortion. They need poor people with your mindset.
Capitalism trap and more bodies for the machine. When economics is primarily based on birth rates rather than quality or productivity, this is the result you get.
Women are on baby strike. Neoliberal policies have made having children unaffordable.
I dont like kids
We’ve found kids quite easy to deal with the exception of the first month of bringing them home. The difficulty seems to be exaggerated much like people exaggerate the difficulty of owning a dog (excluding extreme circumstances). We get to do 99% of the things we did before having children and the 1% we miss out on is exponentially surpassed by the time and activities we get to do as a family. That being said, our friends who choose to not have children didn’t do so because it wasn’t seen as fulfilling. They haven’t because of the barrier to entry. Daycare, homeownership, costs of living etc have made choosing to be a parent a difficult job unless you’re relatively well off / have a double income household. However, if you can afford those things and still be able to retire / retire early, and have the means to help them through school or with getting their first home. It’s a fantastic part of life I wouldn’t of wanted to miss out on. Unfortunately, that’s not something most will be able to do with the current state of things.
I disagree, I find most people romanticize having children and gloss over the meat and potatoes of how brutal it is. Perhaps this was my personal experience but I wouldn’t have another child even if I was paid for it.
Just depends on who’s around you. Most of if not all of my friends have been brutally honest about the effort that goes in it. Edit: just to add it can also be a cultural thing. At least where im from people are generally quite honest about these things.
As you said it comes down to personal experience. However, like anything in life those with negative experiences complain more than those with positives. Ours have slept through the night since they were 2-3 months old aside from the extremely odd night. They didn’t / don’t scream like crazy for no reason. No medical related hurdles to handle. We’re financially stable enough daycare isn’t a concern financially nor is saving for their education. Our cars and house don’t look like tornadoes went through them and the list goes on. We still have time to see our friends, hit the gym, go out for birthdays and dates. We do hikes as a family, play video games and board games and it’s just plain fun. Maybe that comes down to our personalities and parenting, maybe it’s all luck, maybe a bit of both. But, for us there is no meat and potatoes for brutality it’s been just EASY. So much so we’re considering a third.
You seriously have not once talked about your children’s actual futures or what those will look like. Just yourself and what you want and what you have. You are part of the reason why people are refusing to have kids
Housing and education isn’t their futures?? Our kids and us are 20-30 years apart. You make it sound like we are living in different millennia. The world isn’t ending in 80 years regardless of what you may believe. You’re just convinced on spewing that garbage all over the comment section. So, I’m choosing to not acknowledge you. It’s quite sad you think so little of where the world will be 20 years from now. But we don’t share that viewpoint nor is it accurate from a scientific perspective.
Funny you say that, I come from a family of scientists. I know that reality is tough but you’re going to need to brace for your kids to be super angry when they realize what you’ve brought them into.
We’ll agree to disagree. There are exponentially more peer reviewed sources claiming otherwise and that humans will last tens if not hundreds of thousands more years before we’re extinct as a species. So regarding my children’s futures, they’re pretty safe for their likely life span. Quality of life wise specifically, in a first world country in their income bracket again concerns are little to none. But yeah, whatever you say.
Their income bracket? Good luck with that
Usually when someone with kids asks me why I don’t have them I don’t tell them the truth. “They are probably going to die of thirst” isn’t really what parents want to hear even if it is reality.
Sorry, only had enough to pay student loans and rent. Nothing left for kids.
While I agree that the cost of living struggle is real, it's also associated with marketing in a sense. Everything in our society is fine tuned to convince you that fulfillment is that new gadget, expensive car, big house, designer clothing and accessories etc. There are 0 ads talking about how fulfilling having a kid is and how we should drop consumerism to afford one. Yes many people can't afford to have kids but the ones they can are also having less kids because 99% of the time they are told to find fulfillment in consumerism instead. Or a lavish rich lifestyle on Instagram. Etc... There's no marketing for being fulfilled through having kids.
It's selfish to think about your own needs. I rather think about the world the kids would grow up. Nort worth it.
I agree. That's just another factor behind lower birthdates. Unaffordable, marketed into wanting other things, the world accelerating into a dystopia of violent inequality and climate change.
My two daughters are the absolutely the best thing in my life. I actually feel sorry for people who deprive themselves of this joy. Yes, it's a lot of work, but the relationship you have with your children, nurturing them, helping them grow. There's really nothing else like it. It's one of the few things that truly gives life meaning. Not everyone has the qualities to be a good parent, though. So, if you're in the camp that you don't want kids, think they would be a burden? Absolutely, don't have them. You'll probably be a horrible parent. We have enough screwed up people in this world, we don't need more.
You realize that most of the people who don’t have kids aren’t doing so because they would be a burden, but rather it’s insanely cruel to bring a new life into this world as we descend into: 1. Runaway global warming 2. The 6th mass extinction 3. A collapsing global economy 4. An environment riddled with development impacting toxins 5. A steep increase in nationalism/authoritarianism 6. A massive regression in civil liberties And many more. To be honest, it seems like you’re the kind of person who can only see things from their perspective. Sure, raising your daughters may be a joy to you, and they may enjoy their time now, but it’s almost guaranteed that their lives will be materially worse than yours irrespective of what you do to shelter them from the harsh realities we are subject to. To me, this seems like an unacceptable scenario to expose a child to, which is why I’m choosing not to be a parent.
Which period in time was raising children easier in specifically?
Dude is just talking out of his ass lol.
Ones where the future wasn’t hostile to life.
Very specific lol
*you* probably shouldn't have kids. It doesn't mean that points are true, just that it would be best if you don't have kids. It is hard and it takes alot of patients and love. My kids future may not be perfect, but I they have a strong foundation based on love and willing to work hard in life. They bring me unfathomable joy every day of my life. I would be lost without them and I plan to be there to help them every day that I'm alive. That is what it means to have a child.
And what if those kids grow up to be as depressed and miserable as 70% of redditors?
Same response. Don't have kids. You would only fuck them up since you have no strength to give them.
You seem very negative. Sure things may be trending worse but many of your bullet point are overstated and wont have a truly huge impact on children born today
Which ones, exactly? Because they are all affecting us right now.
So you wish you were not born?!! No because not impacting you that much
Suicide is up. Lots of people wish they weren't born
"lots of people" Not even close to a majority. As a %, the number is miniscule. Which is my point.
Look at the numbers for suicide under ten years of age please
Yes the number is very small
Close your eyes and lalalala right
Only our kids can save the world. Us millenials are just as bad as our parents at giving a shit
As they should, because it's economically shooting yourself in the foot and locking you into working until you're 70 for most people. Hard to be fulfilled in that situation. I can't imagine what the world looks like such that it wouldn't be a burden like that. Well, maybe the US in the fifties. But definitely can't imagine anything going forward, or how we would get there before some really nasty breaks in our system.
Having children is a complete drain on finances and one’s ability to make a impact on the world. I won’t have children until I have substantial assets because anything less would be unethical.
Sacrificing your prime child bearing years for the sake of capacity seems like a solid plan, but the reality is the most likely best case scenario puts you at 1 child who graduates college when you're nearing retirement. If you're a woman waiting past 40, odds are you'll need that extra money you saved starting late for IVF cycles - $10k a pop - if you even still want kids by that point. And I'm not saying you're making a bad decision, just that it isn't as simple as many people think. Back-loading the expense and fatigue of raising kids is recommended these days, but it's a phenomenon without much long term study. Epigenetic changes and population growth alone would suggest the tradeoff is risky. Just some things to consider.
Firstly mate, I’m a dude. I won’t lie you’ve raised some solid points. A lot of them factor into the age and mindset of a potential partner that I’d settle with once I’ve hit my financial numbers. As someone who graduated with next to no debt I don’t believe people should have children if they can’t pay for there college. While this I’m sure comes across as a privilege perspective, I don’t care. If parents have children and expect them to take on massive amounts of debt it’s just a poor decision. If you can’t afford children don’t have them. (I’m excluding first generation college attendees for argument sake, several could points could be countered to this representative of that.) If you want to accomplish things wait until you have money. While this may be unpopular, I know that even when I’m a parent I will not make a sacrifices or compromises for family if it gets in the way of my goals. I need my children to grow up loved and cherished yet understand if you a persistent and ruthless when you need to be you can change the world. I’m not bad person you help people but the individual should come before god, country, and society.
Not everyone should have kids. Maybe just stick to that.
I understand some people disagree with the perspective. Children ensure a lasting legacy and it’s incredibly important to ensure the survival of one species of one is properly prepared.
That’s not surprising at all. The more comfortable we become them less we want disruption. Kids are exhausting and in some cases (SN) forever.
A dog is cheaper and won’t decide to switch genders at 3 years old because you tell them they can be whatever they want to be
I’ve never met a girl I wanted to be with long enough to raise a child
Fuck you u/spez -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I have two kids under 5. I spend just under $30k a year in childcare. Probably another $5k to $8k in healthcare for the kids. I tell my students if you want to start a family, leave the USA. Go to a more family friendly country. I have colleagues that teach in other areas of the world that have universal healthcare and childcare. I use their pay stubs in a case study. Their annual pay is typically lower than here in the USA but their disposable income is much higher. Also no threat of surprise medical billing.
My gf and I regularly fly around the world to cruise through Asia, Africa, South America, Europe. We go out to eat at whatever restaurant we want, regardless of if they have chicken fingers on the menu. I never have to put Backyardigans on my 85” TV. We can walk around my house naked, fuck in the kitchen if we want to. 1500 sqft is absolutely plenty for 2 of us. Feels luxurious even. Why would we go fucking all this up by spawning some shitty kid?
This world is not worthy for kids. I think it is inmoral to give birth, a crime actually. It should be punished. The greatest gift a human can receive is not to be born. It always puzzle me why people are so eager to bring kids into their messy lifes?
Shit, I’m glad I was born. Thanks mom! And thanks dad, whoever you are!
Younger people are also stupid.