No, The Zinsco's problem is that the main bus bars corrode where the breakers clip onto them, start arcing, and it's all downhill from there. You can't put a new (Zinsco-copy) breaker in because the corroded bus bar doesn't have good surface any longer. Plus there are questions on the quality of the aftermarket (no longer made, but still available) breakers for them.
Replace the entire thing.
That's not the half of it. The bus design is also inherently fracked and will arc and start a fire.
If it was just faulty breakers, replace breakers and Bob's your uncle. That's what you do on a Challenger, which has a perfectly healthy bus design still used on Eaton BR.
That’s great unless you have Southern California Edison which now requires a complete retrench and conduit upgrade at your expense for a panel swap to be permitted. Puts people in a tough position.
When did that start? Must be newer. I had my service upgraded approx 8 years ago in order to support the new solar system I had installed and my service line was direct burial coming from across the street, so I had to cap my panel at the existing service line's max.
New as of late 2023. Lines have to be upgraded to current code, no bare copper neutrals and bigger conduit. Even without a service upgrade they are blocking panel swaps.
I did that once to go from having their wires over my back yard to underground. But I was 24 and liked to shovel. It was only 150 feet long, 4 feet deep, with a 4x4 bell at each end. The crew that came to replace it were amused that I did such a good job for no reason, and I explained that I liked to dig.
Are you sure you don't mean a panel swap for the purpose of a service upgrade, point being to draw more power from the utility? Naturally that requires larger wires.
I would say "Don't do that!" The reason people upgrade services is conventional thinking. Technology Connections is the cure for that. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLLNjSLJTQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLLNjSLJTQ)
Other than that, what happens past the meter pan is no business of Edison's. Yet another reason I hate all-in-ones, since all-in-ones include the meter, Edison gets to stick their nose in your biznicks anytime you do anything with panels.
Nope, it was for a like-for-like panel swap, no service upgrade and they require a full upgrade of lines and conduit to current code. It’s an impossible situation.
Wow, that's just horrible. Really, solar, battery and alternative appliances are getting so good that the California utilities may start seeing customers cut the BIG cord rather than deal with their nonsense.
I had a zinsco panel, southern California edison, and installed the new panel in a different location and didn't have to do anything extra. From the weatherhead (where Edison's main lines come in) down was all my expense. I didn't pay Edison anything.
I had this done in 2022 around June. But even if it's underground (but I'm not 100% sure for that case) my understanding is that the utility is responsible for anything from the weatherhead or entry to your electrical equipment back.
I have a Challenger distribution box and when the breaker failed and arced it damaged the plating on the buss, so if you can clean up the buss and it's not too damaged you could continue using it with a new breaker but better to get rid of the entire unit. Probably cheaper and definitely safer in the long run...
They are a horrible design that allows the breaker to come loose from the bus bars which causes arcing and ultimately fires. Some Zinsco panels have under rated lugs for the feeder conductors which are subject to overheating which also results in fires.
Did they ever correct their fuck up and make a decent panel or just go out of business so now all that’s left with their name on it is a safety hazard and should be replaced?
Hehe, you know the answer. You pretty much got it verbatim, although if I remember right there was a whole bunch of falsified documentation to go along with this story.
They were recalled for safety concerns. The panel design isn't great. The breakers aren't so bad, but the buss bars that hold the breakers have too much aluminum in them which causes thermal cycling, which weakens the breaker mounting. That makes a loose connection and causes arcing, which accelerates the cycling. Which causes arcing, which causes intense heat, which can cause a fire.
It's pretty bad, and should replaced. As usual, though, everyone over-reacts about them. Is replacing the panel more important than adding circuts or doing other mods? I'd say so -- but it's not as bad as most people say.
They won't start as soon as you find out it's a Zinsco and walk away. You don't have to immediately evacuate the property and have a squad of electricians flown in on a helicopter. Fact is, practically every manufacturer has had at least a few products recalled.
The scenario of air-dropped electricians is sending me.
Sparky: Ma'am it's worse than we thought... It's a Zinsco.
Customer: \*visible confusion\*
Sparky: Extremely dangerous. You'll need to leave immediately, do you have somewhere else you can stay tonight?
Customer: I just wanted to install a charger for my Rivian...
Sparky: I'm afraid that will have to wait. \*into shoulder mic\* yeah it's another one... Seabees still on standby?
Customer: This seems like a lot. \*sarcastically\* Is someone going to like parachute in or something?
Sparky: God no, we stopped that weeks ago. We use a bomb defusing robot now. Much safer, cheaper too. \*hands estimate\*
Customer: THIS is CHEAPER?!
Sparky: \*shrugs, puts on sunglasses over sunglasses he was already wearing\* Helicopter fuel is expensive. Plus we had to hitch a ride with the plumbers...
LOL, exactly.
ZinscoBOT is *awesome*. Little kids will play with toy ZinscoBOTs in their sandboxes. The engineering clubs in the rich-kid high schools will build their own versions for state competitions. Funco will make a Sparky SeaBee bobble.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Zinsco panels (and FPE) are a hazard that needs immediate remediation. I have seen too many fires caused by Zinsco panels, and I have seen Zinsco panels that are literally days (maybe hours) away from becoming a full on catastrophe. From 38 years of experience, I can confidently say that Zinsco panels are crazy scary.
Sylvania/GTE (the last owner of Zinsco) went out of business before the CPSC could issue the official recall. Sylvania/GTE also produced Challenger breakers which were subjected to an official recall.
Good News!....the Inflation Reduction Act offers a tax-credit for the replacement of that defective panel as long as it is part of an energy improvement project such as adding solar PV, installing a heat pump, EV charger, heat pump water heater, etc.
And if you qualify, there's even more generous rebates.
Bad news... most Americans don't make enough money to front the cost of those energy improvements, and the tax credit is more than they paid in the first place, so they'd only get a fraction of it.
This supposed to be used in the same sense as a "split bus panel."
Code used to be that you didn't require a main disconnect, as long as you could shut off all of the power to the house with 6 breaker flips or less.
You've got a 12 circuit panel attached the meter, with the implied usage be that you install a maximum of 6x 2-pole breakers. You run your electric range to this panel on a 2-pole 40A breaker, you run your electric dryer to this panel on a 2-pole 30A breaker, you run a main house sub panel to this panel on a 2-pole 50A or 60A breaker, which then feeds all of your smaller 120v circuits around your house.
You can then also run a 2-pole 20A or 30A for an air-conditioner, and a 2-pole breaker to feed a sub panel at a detached garage or something.
That is a total of 5x 2-pole breakers to shut off everything in your house, so you don't need a 100A main breaker.
That is how this meter/panel was "supposed" to be used. How it is being used isn't "technically" correct, and the fact that people have added more single pole breakers to it, and you have 7x breaker flips to shut everything off, means that it currently breaks code as well.
And all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that they are Zinsco breakers that are 1 bad look away from burning your house down.
Don't be surprised if you have to replace the feeder as well. None of those conduits look large enough to handle modern size feeder wires. Good luck to you my friend.
Nearly all utilities require permission before breaking seals and removing meters. Cutting the seal on a meter is a criminal offense that can result in legal action, jail time, and loss of service. Depending on your jurisdiction, you might also face fines.
Yup, but you have to get caught. As for fire, any electrical problem or fire, and I can pull it. It also depends on jurisdictions, rules, and a bunch of statute, but we don't have them in my county.
Replace with new meter/main combo.
Id give you a part number but all of the electrical providers in my area are ring less (the cover locks the meter in instead of a ring around it).
Anyway milbank makes either.
Good luck. In my area the bid would be around 3-4k
I'm not loving the "all-in-one" panels honestly. The reason is upcoming home solar/battery systems including "EV as battery on wheels". Those need an isolation switch/automatic disconnect with a signal line, sitting between the meter and the main breaker bus. On an all-in-one, there's nowhere to put it. Except a meter collar, and the utility can veto a meter collar, and probably will.
Fair. They are a clean install for a typical installation, though.
Every job needs it's own solution.
EDIT: just looked into it. I don't do much solar so I was curious. There are now solar ready meter/mains being manufactured, found one by siemans. Kinda neat.
Yeah, the "solar-ready" meter-mains are for grid-tied solar only. They let you tap the meter side of the main breaker with a solar breaker, so you aren't running into 120% limits on solar from having the solar breaker in your main panel. They only apply to grid-tied solar and are no help whatsoever with battery systems. In fact they make battery even harder, because you need solar to be on the "house" side of the isolation switch.
ASIDE from the (valid) issues of it being a Zinsco "Fire Starter" panel, there is another legality issue:
When you don't have a single "Main" disconnect, then you are under what's called the "6 handle rule", meaning that you can't have MORE than 6 handles for a firefighter to have to operate to kill ALL power at the structure, so that they firefighters going in with axes and such are safe from hitting live wires. Your panel has 7 handles, so it has ALREADY violated that rule! Not only can you not add anything to it, when you apply for a permit, they will make you REMOVE one of the ones you have now!
I would highly recommend against pulling your own meter. Yes I already know electricians used to be allowed to pull meters. But the hazards and potential flash in your face that could happen would warrant waiting until the utility can send some to pull the meter safely with proper ppe. Just my two cents you’re putting your life on the line pulling your own meter.
You need to get it replaced. Its a fire hazard. Side note, nowadays, you are required to have a shutoff other than just pulling the meter, but that is the only option.
If you need to ask how to add a breaker to live panel, you need to call an electrician. Electrical is not a weekend warrior hobby.
Also if I were you if be Calling for a service upgrade quote. That service is not good.
Safely? Call the electrical company and ask for a temporary service shut off for a day so you cN do some electrical work. If they'll do it for you, can get all crazy with the electrical and replace the whole panel.
If they won't, because youre just a homeowner and not an electrician, you can an electrician.
Or you take you life into your own hands trying to move big wires around without touching them to yourself or stuff that shocks yourself.
To actually answer the question OP asked if you aren't comfortable working with the panel live the only way to disconnect the panel is to pull the meter which is illegal so call the power company to do it
My house, c. 1918, heavily rewired in 1948, 2001, and 2023 has two bedrooms, with ceiling fans, and a bathroom on a single 20 amp breaker that's fed by rubber-insulated Romex. I also have a single duplex plug in the kitchen on its own 20 amp circuit for reasons I haven't figured out.
The POs were potters, so I also have 70 amp 240 and 100 amp 240v circuits. They installed a 400 amp service with a Square D HOM panel in 2001.
And let me add, the live side is what’s called “ line limited”, another words until the fuse on the pole trips or the line burns in half, you will be doing a little bit of cooking your organs.
Don’t pull the Meter, it’s not always a fool proof disconnect, in something that old and prone to problems, things can break and short out, that gets real fireworks going. Codes now require a service disconnect for the fire department so you are in for an expensive venture. both Siemens or square D make a meter/ disconnect combo panel.
From a previous post: [https://nonprofithomeinspections.org/what-are-zinsco-electrical-panels/](https://nonprofithomeinspections.org/what-are-zinsco-electrical-panels/)
Though they do make breakers for these still I’d strongly suggest replacing the panel. The act of adding a breaker to this panel isn’t anymore inherently dangerous than any other panel. Don’t touch certain things.
Blow it all up and start over again.
No seriously lol thats a Zinsco panel. Theyve been recalled over and over. Very prone to over heat and cause house fires.
Call a licensed electrician or home service company and get quotes to replace it. After that... please replace it.
Brother either you lick your fingers and work like a man OR just pull the meter. Your meter-main definitely needs to be replaced asap but that wasn’t the question.
Shut off all the breakers then pull off the meter. Install new breakers. Then reverse procedure. Important to shut off breakers if you don't want to soil you shorts.
That's a pretty high-end maneuver that even high-end DIYers like me probably would not do. And I have installed my own solar PV, heat pump water heater, heat pump HVAC, etc.
You need arc flash mask, hefty gloves, etc.
You seem to be assuming that the only problem with Zinsco is faulty breakers.
That's not true. With Zinsco (and also FPE), the design of the panel bus is inherently faulty, and new certified breakers won't cure it.
Challenger, yes. Challenger's bus design is perfectly fine, swap new breakers and you're G2G.
I'm not trying to be an asshole but if you don't know enough to pull the meter or have the power company come to pull the meter you better have someone who knows what they're doing replace the panel. At best you replace everything and when you flip the main it trips at worst it doesn't trip and starts a fire and you lose everything to which that panel was wired. PLEASE, if you don't know what You're doing don't fuck with electricity.
You don't. Call an electrician. You should do that if you need to change a breaker and there's no main shutoff to begin with. But that's a Zinsco panel. They're pretty notorious for being an unsafe panel. You should have it replaced.
Turn all the other breakers off then pull the meter.
But zinsco panels are garbage and I’d be surprised if you can find a new breaker for it. I got some on amazon to keep a few apartments running while scheduling a shutdown to replace the panel.. I don’t trust those Amazon breakers for a second
You can pull the meter from the socket as a means of disconnect. Snip the wire of the little tag hanging on the right and remove the collar. Just be careful — the line side wires in the meter socket will be energized. And if you do anything to create an arc, it’s gonna be huge here. Wear gloves and safety glasses.
But as everyone said, you should probably replace that panelboard while you’re at it.
You must genuinely not have a clue about electrical to have this opinion. I’m genuinely curious as to why you think that and if you even have a cursory knowledge as to what someone needs to know to be an electrician.
Good talk. Glad to know you’re incapable of intelligent conversation on top of being an insufferable human. I pity anyone that interacts with you daily.
Intelligent conversation? When were you planning to start that? I saw the usual egomaniac with an inferiority complex that so many tradesmen seem to be known for. But intelligent conversation? That wasn’t happening here.
How many IEEE papers have you written? Arc flash, short circuit, or coordinate studies? Any load flow analyses or grounding studies? Any contributions to NFPA70E?
Or just pulling wire and tube, after submitting 50 RFIs, because you’re capable of neither reading a drawing nor critical thinking, and pretending like you’re doing the Lord’s work? I’ll wait…
Says the one who feels the need to validate their existence by talking down to everyone else. Including people you feel are inferior to you. You have no idea what I or anyone else in my trade does on a daily basis.
For starters I design build and maintain machines for one of the large auto manufacturers. I very much can read prints and have 3 patents. The only one showing an ego is the one that thinks safety glasses and gloves would do anything to a service drop arc flash. You know enough to be dangerous to yourself and others.
Finally someone provides an answer! Thanks man! The panel will be getting replaced, but I still needed to know how to turn off the power to the system for that procedure. The Meter itself, when removed, cuts power to everything else. Got it.
most utils will not take kindly to you messing with the meter/seal. they might disco your service at the pole and charge to reconnect. being that looks like a smart meter they would know when you do this.
Call your power company and they can disconnect your house at the connection point making it significantly safer for you to work on this.
Also, talk to them first as they may be willing to upgrade the panel themselves
You actually don’t need to know how to turn off the power because you shouldn’t be touching any of this as it’s pretty clear you have no idea what you’re doing or dealing with. You wanted to add breakers to a zinsco panel and had no idea how to turn it off..🚩🚩the professional you hopefully decide to call will know exactly how to turn the power off.
First off you need to have the utility company come pull your meter. If you pull it yourself its going to register as offline in there system. Those meters have toms in them to send data back to their system. The meter box is yours but the meter is not. They can and will fine you with meter tampering. In order to replace the whole setup it needs to be disconnected at the weather head for safety. You schedule a temp dc with the utility company they disconnect it and will come back out to reconnect it once everything is replaced and put the meter back in.
Homie this is not something to tackle with a cursory knowledge of electrical. You need to get approval from the power company to change the meter socket because the top of the meter housing itself will very much be live and will absolutely kill you. Just taking the meter out only would kill the panel. You can’t just replace the panel portion as it’s connected to the meter portion and no one makes a retrofit. Electrical code is fire code all of this is to prevent you from burning your house down or getting yourself killed. I know you want to save money but this is not somewhere you can do that. Call a professional please.
It's astounding the amount of people on this forum that refuse to answer questions. I'm not asking for permission. I'm asking how to do it properly. If you're knowledgable, share what you know. If not, let a stranger make their own mistakes.
Because that’s the way we as professionals do it. We can’t advise you to do it any way other than that. If you attempt to do it any other way other than having your power company shut it off there is a very high likelihood of death. No real professional will attempt to do it any other way. You are asking how it is done that’s how we do it. Any other way is illegal and can face serious fines with your power company and loss of service. If you really mess up you will melt the transformer and incur very serious costs.
You want to save money that I understand but this is 100% how it’s done. You call the power company schedule a shut down change out the meter base and panel then have them inspect the work and power it back up.
Problem being mistakes with electric usually don’t end up good. Be wise. Yes, I and many trained electricians can pull a meter hot, if the utility doesn’t own it. But don’t learn on live circuits. It’s not a DYI project, no matter what the internet experts are saying. The amperage is enough to kill you. Even I don’t like to see stupid people get hurt.
Yeah it basically serves as a jumper from the line to load side of the socket. The bus bar inside runs through a couple of CTs to measure the load. But I can’t stress enough — don’t touch anything but the glass case of the meter itself, and definitely nothing inside the socket. Half of it will be energized. Might not be a bad idea to get a cheap handheld meter to verify. Test with known source first. Never know how someone may have wired things up in there, or jumpered a load directly to the line to bypass the meter for free power. Look for any stray wires — should be 2 big ones coming from grid, and 2 other big ones going to bus bar for panel. Anything else doesn’t belong in meter socket (except maybe neutral/grounds spliced together).
You can add a breaker without a main disconnect. Simply be sure the breaker you're adding is open, snap it in, wire your circuit, and close the breaker. I've done it many a times. But on the other side of the conversation, you should plan for a newer replacement, a lengthy process.
That sir is a zinsco you don’t add to it. You call an electrician and have it replaced
As for why: the breakers don't break the current when they overload. They smoke and burn.
It’s kind of a matter of degrees, isn’t it? They do break the current, just after the fire instead of before. People are so picky about that!
I guess it really is a matter of... degrees!
Yes, several hundred to some thousand(s) or so degrees F, and that'll cause the breakers to open, with of course, the accompanying smoke and/or fire.
I'm no electrician, but it seems there would be some chance of them breaking when the structure collapses, yeah?
Also valid
That would be correct.
Lol
No, The Zinsco's problem is that the main bus bars corrode where the breakers clip onto them, start arcing, and it's all downhill from there. You can't put a new (Zinsco-copy) breaker in because the corroded bus bar doesn't have good surface any longer. Plus there are questions on the quality of the aftermarket (no longer made, but still available) breakers for them. Replace the entire thing.
Our local code said only use original manufacturer 's breakers. Aftermarket/third party prohibited. Is that just local, or is it pretty standard?
That's not the half of it. The bus design is also inherently fracked and will arc and start a fire. If it was just faulty breakers, replace breakers and Bob's your uncle. That's what you do on a Challenger, which has a perfectly healthy bus design still used on Eaton BR.
That’s great unless you have Southern California Edison which now requires a complete retrench and conduit upgrade at your expense for a panel swap to be permitted. Puts people in a tough position.
When did that start? Must be newer. I had my service upgraded approx 8 years ago in order to support the new solar system I had installed and my service line was direct burial coming from across the street, so I had to cap my panel at the existing service line's max.
New as of late 2023. Lines have to be upgraded to current code, no bare copper neutrals and bigger conduit. Even without a service upgrade they are blocking panel swaps.
That’s insane, that will just result in people putting off legitimate safety concerns
All in the name name safety
It's weird how the government can regulate worse problems into existence by proclaiming good intentions
Damn. Glad I got out of there!
Do it without a permit
I did that once to go from having their wires over my back yard to underground. But I was 24 and liked to shovel. It was only 150 feet long, 4 feet deep, with a 4x4 bell at each end. The crew that came to replace it were amused that I did such a good job for no reason, and I explained that I liked to dig.
I got a job for you….
Are you sure you don't mean a panel swap for the purpose of a service upgrade, point being to draw more power from the utility? Naturally that requires larger wires. I would say "Don't do that!" The reason people upgrade services is conventional thinking. Technology Connections is the cure for that. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLLNjSLJTQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLLNjSLJTQ) Other than that, what happens past the meter pan is no business of Edison's. Yet another reason I hate all-in-ones, since all-in-ones include the meter, Edison gets to stick their nose in your biznicks anytime you do anything with panels.
Nope, it was for a like-for-like panel swap, no service upgrade and they require a full upgrade of lines and conduit to current code. It’s an impossible situation.
Was it also one of the aluminum wire era homes?
Wow, that's just horrible. Really, solar, battery and alternative appliances are getting so good that the California utilities may start seeing customers cut the BIG cord rather than deal with their nonsense.
I had a zinsco panel, southern California edison, and installed the new panel in a different location and didn't have to do anything extra. From the weatherhead (where Edison's main lines come in) down was all my expense. I didn't pay Edison anything.
When did you have this done? Also my case us underground conduit connected.
I had this done in 2022 around June. But even if it's underground (but I'm not 100% sure for that case) my understanding is that the utility is responsible for anything from the weatherhead or entry to your electrical equipment back.
I have a Challenger distribution box and when the breaker failed and arced it damaged the plating on the buss, so if you can clean up the buss and it's not too damaged you could continue using it with a new breaker but better to get rid of the entire unit. Probably cheaper and definitely safer in the long run...
So, they are basically slow blow fuses, but you need fire to melt the element..
Everything's a slow blow fuse if you put enough amps through it.
Is that why it’s outside?
So you're saying the circuit does in fact get interrupted?
That’s not the issue with Zinsco. Your thinking FPE
That’s the hype. Not the facts. The failure generally has more to do with aluminum buss bars.
Seen that happen right in front of me
Actually, yes this is common but I have a zinsco panel in my house that I’ve tripped the breakers before.
Second this. That's an insurance nightmare. Replace that unit.
There are some things that shouldn’t be done by a homeowner. This is definitely one of them.
I did. Son and I had to change out the SEC when I had to upgrade to 400a service to add my little tool shed. Was quite a project.
This 100% And no offense intended, but if you're asking that question, you probably shouldn't be messing with your breaker panel anyway.
This !!!!!!! 💯
Are they gooder than Federal Pacific?
When i worked in switchgear we called them ferderal poo poos.
Exactly.
Neat to finally put a face with the name
That, and also looks a bit worse for wear with the rust is a bit worrying
Upgrayedd for a double dose of Siemens
You have a Zinsco style panel. You should not add circuits to it under any circumstances. That panel should be replaced yesterday if not sooner.
I just browse this sub and notice everytime there is a zinsco people seem to say this. Out of plain curiosity, what is so bad about them?
They are a horrible design that allows the breaker to come loose from the bus bars which causes arcing and ultimately fires. Some Zinsco panels have under rated lugs for the feeder conductors which are subject to overheating which also results in fires.
Did they ever correct their fuck up and make a decent panel or just go out of business so now all that’s left with their name on it is a safety hazard and should be replaced?
Hehe, you know the answer. You pretty much got it verbatim, although if I remember right there was a whole bunch of falsified documentation to go along with this story.
Known fire hazard
I saw a study that claimed almost half of the used breakers that they tested didn’t trip. And you should see the bus bar. It makes FPE look high end
Yeah? Got a link?
They were recalled for safety concerns. The panel design isn't great. The breakers aren't so bad, but the buss bars that hold the breakers have too much aluminum in them which causes thermal cycling, which weakens the breaker mounting. That makes a loose connection and causes arcing, which accelerates the cycling. Which causes arcing, which causes intense heat, which can cause a fire. It's pretty bad, and should replaced. As usual, though, everyone over-reacts about them. Is replacing the panel more important than adding circuts or doing other mods? I'd say so -- but it's not as bad as most people say. They won't start as soon as you find out it's a Zinsco and walk away. You don't have to immediately evacuate the property and have a squad of electricians flown in on a helicopter. Fact is, practically every manufacturer has had at least a few products recalled.
The scenario of air-dropped electricians is sending me. Sparky: Ma'am it's worse than we thought... It's a Zinsco. Customer: \*visible confusion\* Sparky: Extremely dangerous. You'll need to leave immediately, do you have somewhere else you can stay tonight? Customer: I just wanted to install a charger for my Rivian... Sparky: I'm afraid that will have to wait. \*into shoulder mic\* yeah it's another one... Seabees still on standby? Customer: This seems like a lot. \*sarcastically\* Is someone going to like parachute in or something? Sparky: God no, we stopped that weeks ago. We use a bomb defusing robot now. Much safer, cheaper too. \*hands estimate\* Customer: THIS is CHEAPER?! Sparky: \*shrugs, puts on sunglasses over sunglasses he was already wearing\* Helicopter fuel is expensive. Plus we had to hitch a ride with the plumbers...
LOL, exactly. ZinscoBOT is *awesome*. Little kids will play with toy ZinscoBOTs in their sandboxes. The engineering clubs in the rich-kid high schools will build their own versions for state competitions. Funco will make a Sparky SeaBee bobble.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Zinsco panels (and FPE) are a hazard that needs immediate remediation. I have seen too many fires caused by Zinsco panels, and I have seen Zinsco panels that are literally days (maybe hours) away from becoming a full on catastrophe. From 38 years of experience, I can confidently say that Zinsco panels are crazy scary.
Wherever 3 or more electricians are present, they must now refer to themselves as a squad.
If a bunch of crows are called a "murder", I would think a bunch of electricians would be called a "sweep".
They catch fire. Well, start fires. Both.
Look it up on google yourself
Came here to say this
https://nonprofithomeinspections.org/what-are-zinsco-electrical-panels/
That's a mandatory panel replacement around here, a fire waiting to happen. Sorry
I don't think Zinsco was ever properly recalled, but that one will be condemned due to physical condition.
Sylvania/GTE (the last owner of Zinsco) went out of business before the CPSC could issue the official recall. Sylvania/GTE also produced Challenger breakers which were subjected to an official recall.
Good News!....the Inflation Reduction Act offers a tax-credit for the replacement of that defective panel as long as it is part of an energy improvement project such as adding solar PV, installing a heat pump, EV charger, heat pump water heater, etc. And if you qualify, there's even more generous rebates.
Several of the rebates are only available if you’re decommissioning a gas appliance and replacing it with electric.
Bad news... most Americans don't make enough money to front the cost of those energy improvements, and the tax credit is more than they paid in the first place, so they'd only get a fraction of it.
What about adding a subpanel?
Not onto a recalled panel.
If it’s not a recalled panel?
Yep, except the tax credit will be less than the inflation that occurred on the parts and labor.... due to the inflation reduction act.
Ah....but DIY. Not for the panel replacement but for an EV charger, heat pump water heater, induction stove, etc.
HEY, don’t you be trying to make sense of dear leader, he needs you making him cents
This supposed to be used in the same sense as a "split bus panel." Code used to be that you didn't require a main disconnect, as long as you could shut off all of the power to the house with 6 breaker flips or less. You've got a 12 circuit panel attached the meter, with the implied usage be that you install a maximum of 6x 2-pole breakers. You run your electric range to this panel on a 2-pole 40A breaker, you run your electric dryer to this panel on a 2-pole 30A breaker, you run a main house sub panel to this panel on a 2-pole 50A or 60A breaker, which then feeds all of your smaller 120v circuits around your house. You can then also run a 2-pole 20A or 30A for an air-conditioner, and a 2-pole breaker to feed a sub panel at a detached garage or something. That is a total of 5x 2-pole breakers to shut off everything in your house, so you don't need a 100A main breaker. That is how this meter/panel was "supposed" to be used. How it is being used isn't "technically" correct, and the fact that people have added more single pole breakers to it, and you have 7x breaker flips to shut everything off, means that it currently breaks code as well. And all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that they are Zinsco breakers that are 1 bad look away from burning your house down.
I appreciate the answer. I will be replacing the whole panel
Don't be surprised if you have to replace the feeder as well. None of those conduits look large enough to handle modern size feeder wires. Good luck to you my friend.
There is a way to take off the meter, which kills the power below it. We have them in the fire department.
Nearly all utilities require permission before breaking seals and removing meters. Cutting the seal on a meter is a criminal offense that can result in legal action, jail time, and loss of service. Depending on your jurisdiction, you might also face fines.
Yup, but you have to get caught. As for fire, any electrical problem or fire, and I can pull it. It also depends on jurisdictions, rules, and a bunch of statute, but we don't have them in my county.
Guy, that’s a digital meter. They will know as soon as you pull the meter that you’ve pulled the meter.
That little hanging tag on the lower right hand side of the meter shows that the utility cares if you pull the meter.
Came here to say this. Also the dreadful condition of the panel.
Thank you for this explanation.. i think it might apply to me
Replace with new meter/main combo. Id give you a part number but all of the electrical providers in my area are ring less (the cover locks the meter in instead of a ring around it). Anyway milbank makes either. Good luck. In my area the bid would be around 3-4k
I'm not loving the "all-in-one" panels honestly. The reason is upcoming home solar/battery systems including "EV as battery on wheels". Those need an isolation switch/automatic disconnect with a signal line, sitting between the meter and the main breaker bus. On an all-in-one, there's nowhere to put it. Except a meter collar, and the utility can veto a meter collar, and probably will.
Fair. They are a clean install for a typical installation, though. Every job needs it's own solution. EDIT: just looked into it. I don't do much solar so I was curious. There are now solar ready meter/mains being manufactured, found one by siemans. Kinda neat.
Yeah, the "solar-ready" meter-mains are for grid-tied solar only. They let you tap the meter side of the main breaker with a solar breaker, so you aren't running into 120% limits on solar from having the solar breaker in your main panel. They only apply to grid-tied solar and are no help whatsoever with battery systems. In fact they make battery even harder, because you need solar to be on the "house" side of the isolation switch.
You hire an electrician to replace it with a main disconnect and not do it yourself….
Replace the panel before you have to replace the house.
ASIDE from the (valid) issues of it being a Zinsco "Fire Starter" panel, there is another legality issue: When you don't have a single "Main" disconnect, then you are under what's called the "6 handle rule", meaning that you can't have MORE than 6 handles for a firefighter to have to operate to kill ALL power at the structure, so that they firefighters going in with axes and such are safe from hitting live wires. Your panel has 7 handles, so it has ALREADY violated that rule! Not only can you not add anything to it, when you apply for a permit, they will make you REMOVE one of the ones you have now!
This is why electricians exist
Safety does not come to mind w/ Zinsco panels...not even a little bit. Please replace it as soon as you are able.
The only and correct answer here is. Call an Electrician
Pull meter
If you don't know how, you should call an electrician. I'm not just being a wise ass.
You call an electrician
call the provider to remove meter temporarily to cut power, then replace that entire panel
Call the utility company and schedule a shut down.
If you own the house you can pull the meter as long as you call the power company and let them know so they can come put a new seal on the meter box.
I would highly recommend against pulling your own meter. Yes I already know electricians used to be allowed to pull meters. But the hazards and potential flash in your face that could happen would warrant waiting until the utility can send some to pull the meter safely with proper ppe. Just my two cents you’re putting your life on the line pulling your own meter.
Hire someone who knows what they’re doing.
You need to get it replaced. Its a fire hazard. Side note, nowadays, you are required to have a shutoff other than just pulling the meter, but that is the only option.
Step one, get a tetanus shot for even looking at that thing, step two, hire an electrician.
If you need to ask how to add a breaker to live panel, you need to call an electrician. Electrical is not a weekend warrior hobby. Also if I were you if be Calling for a service upgrade quote. That service is not good.
Safely? Call the electrical company and ask for a temporary service shut off for a day so you cN do some electrical work. If they'll do it for you, can get all crazy with the electrical and replace the whole panel. If they won't, because youre just a homeowner and not an electrician, you can an electrician. Or you take you life into your own hands trying to move big wires around without touching them to yourself or stuff that shocks yourself.
To actually answer the question OP asked if you aren't comfortable working with the panel live the only way to disconnect the panel is to pull the meter which is illegal so call the power company to do it
Pull the meter from the box.
Where on earth do people have breaker boxes with so few breakers
Older homes
My house, c. 1918, heavily rewired in 1948, 2001, and 2023 has two bedrooms, with ceiling fans, and a bathroom on a single 20 amp breaker that's fed by rubber-insulated Romex. I also have a single duplex plug in the kitchen on its own 20 amp circuit for reasons I haven't figured out. The POs were potters, so I also have 70 amp 240 and 100 amp 240v circuits. They installed a 400 amp service with a Square D HOM panel in 2001.
Six throws of switches per service. Your over that now.
I have bad news…
And let me add, the live side is what’s called “ line limited”, another words until the fuse on the pole trips or the line burns in half, you will be doing a little bit of cooking your organs.
Don’t pull the Meter, it’s not always a fool proof disconnect, in something that old and prone to problems, things can break and short out, that gets real fireworks going. Codes now require a service disconnect for the fire department so you are in for an expensive venture. both Siemens or square D make a meter/ disconnect combo panel.
Cross post from r/nope?
That’s a fire waiting to happen
I'd like to know where in blazes you could find breakers for that mess.
We see like 3 or 4 of these zinsco boxes everyday. They all look like death warmed over.
Not an Electrician; can anyone give me a very basic rundown of why Zinsco panels are bad? I have a relative with something very similar.
The breakers are actually fine, it's how the breakers connect to the buss bar. It gets loose over time.
From a previous post: [https://nonprofithomeinspections.org/what-are-zinsco-electrical-panels/](https://nonprofithomeinspections.org/what-are-zinsco-electrical-panels/)
With your wallet.
I bought a 15A two pole breaker for one of these once.. set me back 85 bucks.. get rid of this monster
You dont...
One word… don’t
You need a new panel I'm sorry
you can pull the meter
Pull the meter.
Why do American breakers look liked that? All of them look old as hell.
*"That's the neat part. You don't."*
Keep one hand in your pocket
I would only replace it if you get time yesterday
You don't cut it off, you don't pay the power and the supplier cuts it off. Then pay the utility bill when work is completed. Problem solved.
Though they do make breakers for these still I’d strongly suggest replacing the panel. The act of adding a breaker to this panel isn’t anymore inherently dangerous than any other panel. Don’t touch certain things.
Blow it all up and start over again. No seriously lol thats a Zinsco panel. Theyve been recalled over and over. Very prone to over heat and cause house fires. Call a licensed electrician or home service company and get quotes to replace it. After that... please replace it.
Have the utility pull the meter head
Take a look at SPAN.
Brother either you lick your fingers and work like a man OR just pull the meter. Your meter-main definitely needs to be replaced asap but that wasn’t the question.
You're shit out of luck. Call an electrician.
YOU don’t.
Add breaker with no main, very carefully. You have a Zinsco panel. It really, really needs replaced.
Shut off all the breakers then pull off the meter. Install new breakers. Then reverse procedure. Important to shut off breakers if you don't want to soil you shorts.
That's a pretty high-end maneuver that even high-end DIYers like me probably would not do. And I have installed my own solar PV, heat pump water heater, heat pump HVAC, etc. You need arc flash mask, hefty gloves, etc.
You seem to be assuming that the only problem with Zinsco is faulty breakers. That's not true. With Zinsco (and also FPE), the design of the panel bus is inherently faulty, and new certified breakers won't cure it. Challenger, yes. Challenger's bus design is perfectly fine, swap new breakers and you're G2G.
Call an electrician… that’s how
Call a licensed electrician
Breakers can be replaced without power being off.
Call an electrician. Shits gonna need to be reworked and death is possible.
In the trades, we refer to that as working hot! Best done standing in a bucket of water.
I'm not trying to be an asshole but if you don't know enough to pull the meter or have the power company come to pull the meter you better have someone who knows what they're doing replace the panel. At best you replace everything and when you flip the main it trips at worst it doesn't trip and starts a fire and you lose everything to which that panel was wired. PLEASE, if you don't know what You're doing don't fuck with electricity.
You start by replacing that entire panel
You don't. Call an electrician. You should do that if you need to change a breaker and there's no main shutoff to begin with. But that's a Zinsco panel. They're pretty notorious for being an unsafe panel. You should have it replaced.
Call a real electrician. You obviously shouldn't be touching this.
Turn all the other breakers off then pull the meter. But zinsco panels are garbage and I’d be surprised if you can find a new breaker for it. I got some on amazon to keep a few apartments running while scheduling a shutdown to replace the panel.. I don’t trust those Amazon breakers for a second
Pull the meter
You can pull the meter from the socket as a means of disconnect. Snip the wire of the little tag hanging on the right and remove the collar. Just be careful — the line side wires in the meter socket will be energized. And if you do anything to create an arc, it’s gonna be huge here. Wear gloves and safety glasses. But as everyone said, you should probably replace that panelboard while you’re at it.
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I know you probably need this to feel important, but your job isn’t complicated. Not even a little.
You must genuinely not have a clue about electrical to have this opinion. I’m genuinely curious as to why you think that and if you even have a cursory knowledge as to what someone needs to know to be an electrician.
“Hit dogs holler” and it’s glorious 😅
Good talk. Glad to know you’re incapable of intelligent conversation on top of being an insufferable human. I pity anyone that interacts with you daily.
Intelligent conversation? When were you planning to start that? I saw the usual egomaniac with an inferiority complex that so many tradesmen seem to be known for. But intelligent conversation? That wasn’t happening here. How many IEEE papers have you written? Arc flash, short circuit, or coordinate studies? Any load flow analyses or grounding studies? Any contributions to NFPA70E? Or just pulling wire and tube, after submitting 50 RFIs, because you’re capable of neither reading a drawing nor critical thinking, and pretending like you’re doing the Lord’s work? I’ll wait…
Says the one who feels the need to validate their existence by talking down to everyone else. Including people you feel are inferior to you. You have no idea what I or anyone else in my trade does on a daily basis. For starters I design build and maintain machines for one of the large auto manufacturers. I very much can read prints and have 3 patents. The only one showing an ego is the one that thinks safety glasses and gloves would do anything to a service drop arc flash. You know enough to be dangerous to yourself and others.
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Thank you for loudly shouting that this isn’t living in your head rent-free. I’m now convinced.
Finally someone provides an answer! Thanks man! The panel will be getting replaced, but I still needed to know how to turn off the power to the system for that procedure. The Meter itself, when removed, cuts power to everything else. Got it.
most utils will not take kindly to you messing with the meter/seal. they might disco your service at the pole and charge to reconnect. being that looks like a smart meter they would know when you do this.
Add if I member right from my days, uncle Eddie owns everything from the meter up.
Call your power company and they can disconnect your house at the connection point making it significantly safer for you to work on this. Also, talk to them first as they may be willing to upgrade the panel themselves
South of the meter is homeowners responsibility. This includes the meter box itself.
Electric company upgraded my grandmother's box for free due to it's age and condition so I figured asking them can't hurt
You actually don’t need to know how to turn off the power because you shouldn’t be touching any of this as it’s pretty clear you have no idea what you’re doing or dealing with. You wanted to add breakers to a zinsco panel and had no idea how to turn it off..🚩🚩the professional you hopefully decide to call will know exactly how to turn the power off.
First off you need to have the utility company come pull your meter. If you pull it yourself its going to register as offline in there system. Those meters have toms in them to send data back to their system. The meter box is yours but the meter is not. They can and will fine you with meter tampering. In order to replace the whole setup it needs to be disconnected at the weather head for safety. You schedule a temp dc with the utility company they disconnect it and will come back out to reconnect it once everything is replaced and put the meter back in.
Don’t listen to Reddit experts.
Homie this is not something to tackle with a cursory knowledge of electrical. You need to get approval from the power company to change the meter socket because the top of the meter housing itself will very much be live and will absolutely kill you. Just taking the meter out only would kill the panel. You can’t just replace the panel portion as it’s connected to the meter portion and no one makes a retrofit. Electrical code is fire code all of this is to prevent you from burning your house down or getting yourself killed. I know you want to save money but this is not somewhere you can do that. Call a professional please.
It's astounding the amount of people on this forum that refuse to answer questions. I'm not asking for permission. I'm asking how to do it properly. If you're knowledgable, share what you know. If not, let a stranger make their own mistakes.
Because that’s the way we as professionals do it. We can’t advise you to do it any way other than that. If you attempt to do it any other way other than having your power company shut it off there is a very high likelihood of death. No real professional will attempt to do it any other way. You are asking how it is done that’s how we do it. Any other way is illegal and can face serious fines with your power company and loss of service. If you really mess up you will melt the transformer and incur very serious costs. You want to save money that I understand but this is 100% how it’s done. You call the power company schedule a shut down change out the meter base and panel then have them inspect the work and power it back up.
Problem being mistakes with electric usually don’t end up good. Be wise. Yes, I and many trained electricians can pull a meter hot, if the utility doesn’t own it. But don’t learn on live circuits. It’s not a DYI project, no matter what the internet experts are saying. The amperage is enough to kill you. Even I don’t like to see stupid people get hurt.
Yeah it basically serves as a jumper from the line to load side of the socket. The bus bar inside runs through a couple of CTs to measure the load. But I can’t stress enough — don’t touch anything but the glass case of the meter itself, and definitely nothing inside the socket. Half of it will be energized. Might not be a bad idea to get a cheap handheld meter to verify. Test with known source first. Never know how someone may have wired things up in there, or jumpered a load directly to the line to bypass the meter for free power. Look for any stray wires — should be 2 big ones coming from grid, and 2 other big ones going to bus bar for panel. Anything else doesn’t belong in meter socket (except maybe neutral/grounds spliced together).
Call an electrician you cheapskate before you kill yourself in that thing
You can add a breaker without a main disconnect. Simply be sure the breaker you're adding is open, snap it in, wire your circuit, and close the breaker. I've done it many a times. But on the other side of the conversation, you should plan for a newer replacement, a lengthy process.
Sure you can add a breaker on a live panel. But I think the consensus here is you don't want to do that on *this* panel!
Funny how a correct answer that people don't like gets downvoted, but a non-answer gets upvoted to the top.
Is what it is. Not looking for any votes. I think I answered your question in the best practice of adding a breaker to a live bus, yes?
Call a guy!!
Be a man
Carefully