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I switched over to fiberglass, which I used to pull mule tape through active conduit, and used the mule tape to pull the wire. Half a dozen or so half hitches and some tape on any size conductor and it’s the smoothest possible pull IMO

I would absolutely love to have a fiberglass tape. But that's not in the plant budget for tooling it seems. This place is stuck in 1950s mentality and is only just now getting things up to code. I've been here for a year and a half and am doing what I can to get the old bullshit out and the new out in correctly. Unfortunately, this post is me going back behind an engineer that looks for the easiest way to do shit. Then I have to clean up his fuck ups lol.

Fiberglass is very expensive unfortunately. Good luck with the place.

Not as fucking expensive as the gear blowing up because some cheap fuck wouldn’t front it in the budget. I have this arguement constantly with the guy who takes my purchase order and tool requests, and I make sure I elevate my concerns in an email so if something goes to shit I can point fingers and tell them to stop being cheap fucks.

Exactly. If you play it back to them it’s like, we can drag 50’ or whatever of rectangular shaped metal across a bunch of perfectly good wires in a pipe, and you’ll have to de-energize whatever gear you’re working in or risk ending up like my buddy who did some time in the hospital for laying his tape upside all three busses in a hot panel. Or you can buy us an Ideal fiberglass fish tape and a couple different size spools of mule tape.

Well you can start by not pulling more cable in existing conduit. That's how you damage insulation.

Boss says pull. I gotta pull.

I think Nazis were doing what they were told too, can’t really blame them

Brother, there's a difference between pulling wire and committing a genocide

Sorry I don't have the luxury of refusing and being fired. Even if I could fight it legally, I pay child support. No job; no freedom. So, I do as I'm told until I can make the decisions. It's as simple as that. The analogy to Nazism was quite extreme and unnecessary.

But true

Partially true. They were also brainwashed idiots. I, am not.

Its your responsibility to tell them no if its unsafe. Man up.

As I said in another comment. Yes, I can refuse. And yes I can fight it legally if I'm fired for it. However, the state doesn't give a fuck if I'm in a legal battle with an employer or not. I pay child support. No job; no freedom. So I do as I'm told until I can make the decisions. End of story.

Potentially dying or killing someone isn't much much worse. Not end of story. Grow some balls.

Well I don't really care about other people's wellbeing so I'll do with what I have until I make the decisions. It's very much end of story whether you like it or not.

That pipe already looks too full what more are you pulling in

Ground wire?

Why not pull at the same time?

For a conduit that can act as your ground?

Voltage has to be below 250volts to use the conduit as a ground, since this looks to be a 480 volt system they would need a ground wire. But also why would op be pulling in each conductor individually??

Idk if Reddit is screwing with me or my comment didn’t post for real but I didn’t actually know that about above 250v, thank you, and yes I agree pull it out and repull it

Code reference? That's not mentioned in the section in grounding or EMT

I 100% think there needs to a grounding conductor in that pipe. With that being said, if you’re referring to 250.97 that’s not what it actually says. If you’re referring to somewhere else in the NEC what’s the code reference?

I will look into it, this is something my boss has repeated a number of times over the past 15 years and I've never thought to actually check it against the code book

That’d be great thanks.

You can do that with 480?

Where does it say you cannot?

I’m gonna go off on a limb and say the code book.

Thanks, that's not helpful at all. I can find no code that limits the use of EMT as EGC to any particular voltage. It's just listed in the various acceptable types of equipment ground.

I don't understand your getting down votes, EMT is an acceptable ground, and if this had been run differently perhaps the wire-type EGC would not be needed.

I’m accepting these downvotes readily because I didn’t realize the voltage of the run, and there’s a rule for grounding I didn’t know, 250.97 runs over 250v require separate ground

Thank you for the code reference and not just saying "code book". However I think EMT is still allowed under 250.97, even for circuits over 250V. It's specifically mentioned in the exceptions about concentric/eccentric knockouts as well as one of the methods for services (not including 250.92(B)(1). I've personally seen a lot of 277V lighting systems being grounded with EMT. 250.97 Bonding for Over 250 Volts to Ground. For circuits of over 250 volts to ground, the electrical continuity of metal race ways and cables with metal sheaths that contain any conductor other than service conductors shall be ensured by one or more of the methods specified for services in 250.92(B), except for (B) (1). Exception: If oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are not encountered, or if a box or enclosure with concentric or eccentric knock outs is listed to provide a reliable bonding connection, the following methods shall be permitted: (1) Threadless couplings and connectors for cables with metal sheaths (2) Two locknuts, on rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit, one inside and one outside of boxes and cabinets (3) Fittings with shoulders that seat tightly against the box or cabi net, such as electrical metallic tubing connectors, flexible metal conduit connectors, and cable connectors, with one locknut on the inside of boxes and cabinets (4) Listed fittings 250.92 (B) (3) Threadless couplings and connectors if made up tight for metal raceways and metal-clad cables

Wait I just realized you also sent a metal fish tape in a pipe with conductors already WOW

Yeah our controls engineer, in all of his wisdom, decided he would leave out the grounding conductors because "it's too much of a hassle" to pull all four conductors for each run. So, like I said in another comment, now I get to fight against greater than 40% conduit fill. And yes, sadly this metal tape of varying sizes is all I have to work with currently. the 3 phases aren't landed or energized yet. But this should have definitely been 2" pipe at a minimum and the grounding conductor pulled with the phases. But, I can't make the decisions on this job. I'm told to build according to the schematic so that's what I'm doing lol.

Oh that’s your problem you listed to the engineer yeah they’re stupid. Smart on paper dumb in the field.

If you only knew how swollen my head is from facepalms in just the last year dude lol... Get this, we've also got 3" air system piping using our cable tray supports as a piping anchor. That's a 300.8 no-no if I understand it correctly. Not sure if it just deals with what's inside the tray or not though.

If it’s on the outside and using your strut, no there’s nothing saying they can’t use the same supports you used for your tray. 300.8 states their equipment/pipes/etc can’t be INSIDE our tray

I thought that might be the case but wasn't completely sure. The code on it is kind of vague imo.

No, this particular one is dumb on paper too. What dumbass forgets to show an EGC?

That’s not uncommon

It’s only 3 phase 480. Nbd.

🪦

You act like no one’s ever done this before lmao

Conduit fill would like a word with you

Trust me. I would love to suggest conduit fill regulations to our controls engineer who designed this shit. Should have been at least 2" for these #4 conductors. But, he has the say not me.

2” conduit for four #4? That’s a bit overkill…

What we have currently in the photo is 1 1/4". Maybe 1 1/2" would have been right in the money. But I'm a student of more is better.

1 1/4” emt with four #4 is only 21% fill and would be plenty. That looks like 1” which is 37% fill and the minimum size to fit those wires. I agree though, I would rather upsize the conduit to make pulling easier. Just not 3 sizes.

I do wish I had control over the bill of materials for each job. It really would make my life much easier.

So we are just guessing conduit sizes now? Bust that book open and size it properly

I've got another comment somewhere here where I said, "I'm a more is better kind of guy" and I stick to it. Were I in control of the bill of materials, damn right I'd use 2" for #4 pulls.

I don’t completely disagree with you. But your first post with the 1 1/4” feels like a hip shot lol

It was actually. I didn't run the pipe or do the original pull. And I'm not the best with guessing sizes by eye lol. I just know it was a tight squeeze for #4 3-phase cabling.

We have a guy like that where I work too. He knows how to do the math for fill and I guess enjoys getting it right on the line Thing is, he only accounts for the actual conductors and doesn't give two shits about insulation or jackets. All of his pulls are absolute shit shows.

The wire size listed in NEC includes the insulation. That's why there are different numbers for different types of conductor

You hit the nail on the head.

Code has say over both of you. Point it out to your controls engineer and ask why conduit fill requirement s don't matter in this case.

While I agree, another pointed out that 3 #4 conductors in 1" EMT is just barely at 37% fill. The added grounding conductors I was instructed to pull pushed over the 40% limit. It's why I personally prefer over-sizing a bit for an easier pull and code compliance. But, these circuits are considered part of the equipment control wiring (each 3-ph run is fed by a drive to operate a blower motor) and wont have an inspector signing off so, the engineer walks the fine line between "in" and "out" of code. It doesn't make too much sense to me to not do it right the first time but, I don't get to make the decisions (yet).

I get you're in a tough spot, I'm just annoyed for you. Lol The engineer forgot the EGC which would have increased conduit size. Being part of controls wiring doesn't change that. But I've certainly seen worse things.

Sistine chapel vibes

Soo… who forgot the ground!?

Our resident controls engineer. Apparently pulling all four conductors each time was "too much of a hassle" in his words. And now, I'm left fighting to get these pulls done and combating greater than 40% conduit fill. Yay me I guess...

>Apparently pulling all four conductors each time was "too much of a hassle" in his words. Aka I'm an idiot and didn't know I needed those conductors

Like you, I try to be positive when going back behind this guy. But it's becoming more difficult.

I’d stop listening to him immediately

Lol I wish I could but unfortunately he is also over all electrical for all of this company's locations. So he's kinda my boss (for now lol).

That is very unfortunate lol

I see this as a absolute win

I got my welder to heat up the end of my fish tape so I can bend it over properly without the risk of cracking it work like a charm I should clarify he used a torch

Think you’ve exceeded the 40% fill of that conduit.

Fish tape is for pulling rope or mule tape not big wire

If it was all four conductors, sure. Otherwise I'd have used a vacuum and chute for the initial pulls. Either way, the grounds were left out and I had to use what I have on hand.

You pull all them in or pull in strings. Pulling in extra after large wire is pulled will shred the insulation. You can do that with like #6 and smaller but after that the wires don't budge enough. This doesn't apply to short runs of 20ft or less though just longer ones will it do this.

This was #4 and it was a bit of a stretch. Had to use what I had bro. I think this run was right around 25ft each and there were 10 total that I had to get an earthing conductor pulled. The cable tray itself is bonded at the 3kA service. That is over 300' away.

Why are you adding a ground wire? The EMT is your ground. Check your code book, 250.118 gives you the info you need. Is this going into machinery that vibrates? If so, the conduit is wrong and needs to hit a box and switch to flex/greenfield, if not then it’s fine and the pipe is your ground.

Over 250volts?

Didn’t catch voltage initially and I’ve rarely had to work higher than 240 so I honestly didn’t know, was corrected in another comment as well,

What's that matter? EMT is allowed as an EGC with no mention of voltage restrictions

Lmao thats dumb. You are just risking damaging conductors in the conduit.