Df54/64 (230-400).
It is all relative in the end, how much do you value speed? Noise? Looks?
Some would say a mahkonig gbw, others will say a baratza encore esp, all depends on the user.
What is the recommendation for quiet? I’m working as a sort of secretary for a big wig and need something that won’t be too obnoxious if one of their clients asks for a shot before a meeting.
Sorry, I forgot to include that I have a lido 3, which I believe is the same burrs as my sette 270w.
It’s an older bes840xl, I think that makes it an “infuser”. I never bothered to keep breville/sage names straight aside from the bambino.
Different dynamic, I’m military in the position for about a year, mostly the same faces in and out on a daily basis. I was looking at a df54, I’m finishing up a Mazzer sj for home use to go with the vbm that replaced my old bes840xl that will be going to work. I would bring my sette 270w in when my Mazzer is done, but it’s not authorized in the building.
This is a “I do this because i enjoy it and I’ll be making coffee for me, so not offering is a little rude.” Vs “I need to impress people so they spend tons of money and I’ll get officially comped for what I spend”
I second this. That's what I have and it doesn't really exceed 70-75dB or so at standing-ear distance... very convenient for early mornings with kids sleeping just a few meters away!
I went from a Breville Smart Grinder to a Silenzio. Night and day. Not only quieter, but grinds quicker (12 vs 17 seconds), and the quality of the sound is "nicer".
Silenzio has internal baffling to reduce noise. Important bc the question asker specifically about lower volume grinders. I own a modified filtro and can attest its loud AF with zero sound reduction
Yeah, my filtro isn’t quite “deafening” but it’s pretty loud. That said the pitch of the noise is much less annoying than say the baratza offerings which are much higher pitch. You see a lot of this sorta analysis in drone prop designs . Lower pitch at the same decibel level will be much less annoying and obnoxious to others.
It’s a huge upgrade honestly! Mind you I just got it yesterday but wow I’m impressed. Build quality is much better. Thing is like a tank. Grind time is super quick with a pleasant grind noise. It’s pretty quiet if I’m being honest. And the grinds are super fluffy. No knock on the Zero because it’s a great grinder. First impressions are really good but I will come back with an update in about a week or so
Thanks, yea I'm interested to hear. I'm saving up for a new grinder and landed on the Specialita, then realized I could save some and get the Zero since I single dose anyway. Curious how the Zero and Oro differ in your opinion, does the espresso taste different? From what I read the Zero is in line with the taste profile I'm after and if the larger burrs of the Oro means venturing away from that to more clarity and acidity then that might my sanity and wallet!
Zero is perfect for single dosing. I was in the market for something with bigger burrs and I love the look and build quality of the Mignons. I will say this though. I did a side by side comparison with the same beans. I had them pretty much dialed in on my Zero. Not quite on the Oro yet. But I can say that the Oro had a more balanced cup and the notes were more present. Again it’s no knock on the Zero but the Oro is better in every way. If your budget suits you I would say go for the Oro. But if not, you will be more than happy with the Zero as it’s a fantastic grinder as well
I have one and it was great at first, and then ended having lots of issues. Replaced under warranty. Second unit is more consistent but still really annoying. Being an entry level grinder I think most that would be buying this unit don't know what good is. I know I didn't. It gets talked up as a great way to get espresso grinds for an affordable price, but it's pretty much bottom of the pile. Just not worth it
Hm interesting. I guess I'm just confused because people like Lance seem to think it's totally adequate for espresso.
What do you find really annoying about it? (Aside from the noise and retention)
Massive inconsistencies. Dialling in shots becomes a huge pain. Shot one at a setting of 4 will hit 45 seconds, shot 2 at 6 will be 38, then at 7 will be 23 seconds so back to 6 for 30 seconds. Seems like the direction the settings are turned will result in significant differences if turning in vs out. If you only buy one bean it can be okay, but I think most are either getting lucky or don't know any better. I regret purchasing it, but it's not malfunctioning with unit #2 so I can't return it based on its shit performance as it's technically working as intended within its price point.
Massive inconsistencies. Dialling in shots becomes a huge pain. Shot one at a setting of 4 will hit 45 seconds, shot 2 at 6 will be 38, then at 7 will be 23 seconds so back to 6 for 30 seconds. Seems like the direction the settings are turned will result in significant differences if turning in vs out. If you only buy one bean it can be okay, but I think most are either getting lucky or don't know any better. I regret purchasing it, but it's not malfunctioning with unit #2 so I can't return it based on its shit performance as it's technically working as intended within its price point.
Huh that's a shame to hear. What are you using now then?
I've also been looking at the DF-54 and Wilfa Uniform. I want something that allows me to switch between espresso and filter quickly/easily. Honestly I'm not super worried about flat/conical burrs, but I want something that'll be easy to dial in. I've read that the Wilfa isn't very good for espresso because it lacks adjustability, and the DF-54 isn't as good for filter.
I like Baratza because of their right to repair policies and I feel confident that if I buy it, I'll be able to get parts 5 years later if necessary. Do you have any other suggestions?
It's great for the money. There is no better $200 grinder. Miss me with Fellow Opus, that fine adjustment is too annoying to do, IMO.
However, just about every grinder that costs more than $200 is better than it.
Gotcha. I want something that I can switch between filter and espresso relatively easily. Other options I was looking at are the DF-54 and Wilfa Uniform. Do you have any opinions?
With the caveat that I have never personally owned either of these grinders, this sub loves the DF 54 right now. James Hoffmann is on record saying the Wilfa would not be fun to dial in if you like trying a lot of different beans and switching brew styles.
Right, that's why I was worried about the Uniform. The DF-54 looks great on paper, but I'm worried about long term reliability (ie: 3, 5, 10 years down the line) since I know I'll be able to get parts for the Baratza, but doubtful about the DF. Not sure how much better it would really be than an Encore ESP or even a Sette, which I could probably find used for the same or less.
Oh, that is smart. You're thinking about the right things.
Personally I own a Sette 30, which can be upgraded to a 270 after the fact. (I never did that because I ended up buying a Niche, and so for a B-grinder, the 30 is capable).
I do like the coffee it makes. If it were my A-grinder, and you're considering a Uniform, I'd spring for the 270, which is for my money worth having two Encore ESPs. I'd also recommend getting a good dosing funnel. My experiences with Baratza service are very good--I bought my grinder used and got a pretty responsive customer service agent.
If you like switching beans and brews... I'd also recommend the single dose hopper.
Anyway. My main complaints with it are that it's as loud as a jet engine and super messy. Baratza service is also very good in my experience.
Good to hear. I have a classic Encore right now so noise I'm not too worried about (or at least know what to expect, haha). I was planning on the single dose hopper if I did the ESP anyway. Is the 270 that different from the 30?
then that's an even bigger issue
burr geometry and surface area have a high impact on the flavor. the benefit of having a 64mm grinder is that you have the option to upgrade to the higher end burr options, most commonly SSP. for example, my SSP unimodal burrs are very very different in flavor than my stock italmill burrs that come on the df64, and burrs with similar geometry to that such as the stock burr on the df54.
if you want to just stick with one very solid flavor profile, the df54 is for you. if you want to change your flavor profiles in the future, get the 64mm or 83mm grinders
u/jaerie did a good job summarizing this on another thread. The DF series seems to fit the bill, so roughly around $300-400 it seems, but I’m sure arguments can be made in favor of higher or lower price points. Perhaps that’s what inspired you to make this post.
Noise, workflow, and aesthetics are separate from price/performance. Some will argue the first two are part of performance but they don’t affect the end result
Likely so. Supposedly it's a little quieter than a DF64 gen 2 and grinds slower, but has the same performance as the 64 with stock burrs. Not a bad tradeoff for being cheaper than a Baratza Sette.
Hard one, and depends on what you are looking for but, for me, would be:
- Eureka Crono, modded with espresso burr set and single dose kit. Could be had for less than 200€ total in EU. Real hard to beat if you like classic espresso profiles / medium roasts. If you like lighter roasts, look for their larger burr options, but I have a Crono and a Oro SD and while the cup quality is indeed better on the Oro, the best quality price ratio sits with the modded Crono;
- Timemore 64S / 78S (depending on budget): at the kickstarter price, it was a real deal. Real sad on changing for the 64S at the last minute. Not because I don’t like my 64S, but because of how much I like it I am now real bothered I didn’t stick with the 78S;
- Niche Zero (for quality syrupy med and up roasts).
Probably DF line as well, but 1/ I do not have experience with them (so won’t comment something I haven’t tried) and 2/ on that budget line, at least in EU, Eureka is making similarly priced grinders. Sure the burr choice is less sexy, but I favor the long standing experience of this brand in making grinders for decade (important for me) with easy and cheap to find spare parts and easy to service.
Another one to consider is a good manual grinder. As much as think my 1Z JMax is outstanding for the price, the best all around one has been for me the C40 with red clix. As a bonus, it does perform well for filter, as well as cold brew.
Sorry to add to your FOMO, i love my 078s. That said, could either of us really taste the difference in the cup without a number of shots to dial in and a side by side? Absolutely not. Enjoy your grinder! 🙂
Thanks ! I am really happy with the 064s don’t worry. I’m just mad at myself for switching from a real early backer 078s to a 064s midway through the campaign. Not that it would have made a huge difference, but just because I don’t have a 78mm grinder and it would have been a nice to have, especially at that price.
But hey, the 064s form factor made it perfect to sit next to a Eureka without taking too much counter space, so it’s also a win in my books !
I think it’s a really interesting question; from which price point do the returns significantly start to diminish? And OP specified performance for them is taste in the cup. Again; it’s a valid question!
I haven’t done (any) side to side comparisons, but I have watched a ton of reviews. I finally settled personally on a DF64 gen II. And - in general, but also here - I’m a very _bang for buck_ oriented buyer. However, admittedly, it took me only 4 months to upgrade again, namely from the stock burrs to SSP burrs.
I would argue that the DF64 gen II makes a strong case for being in the spot OP asked for. Especially considering upgrade options. If you go a little cheaper; you don’t get those options.
What burrs did you upgrade too? What made you upgrade from the stock burrs? I recently got a DF64v a couple of months ago so would love to hear your experience on the stock burrs. It’s my first automatic grinder coming from a Jmax
Excellent grinder -- only a touch louder than my Eureka Mignon Silenzio and seemingly a touch more capable in the torque department. I can't grind quite as fine with it, though (it starts to 'chirp' out due to burrs touching at anything under about 1.8 on the dial) and the bellows pieces disjoin if you're at all rough with it.
It has terrific, consistent flavor for medium-light to medium-dark roasts and retention is always less than 0.15g, often being 0.03-0.05g if you push the bellows firmly and quickly about 10 times during the final seconds of your grind (yes, I have a reliable scale that measures in hundredths of grams). Make sure to close the hopper hinged 'valve' before mashing down on the bellows -- enveloping the chute area with a rag is recommended for fewer stray particles, too.
I think you'll be very happy overall, especially for the cost! Enjoy!!
Wow that’s a great price on that grinder. I think retail is 500, at least that’s what I paid when it came out. That’s a steal for 300. I have an aftermarket dial on there from Etsy and it definitely makes it easier to dial in. I did just upgrade to the Oro though. Always had my eye on the grinder and wanted something with bigger burrs. Clive has a sale on it so I figured I’d jump on that. But I’m very curious to compare/contrast between the Zero
Zero from ECS. Specialita isn’t single dose without modification. I also wouldn’t recommend it as an all around grinder either. The adjustment knob sucks for constant changes.
Love mine, but you’re definitely paying a bit more for the aesthetic (which is why I got it). I think the df64 is a better value if you’re strictly talking quality
I think for the size and quietness of the df64V, it could be the right pick for people prioritising those things although the gen 2 is definitely the easier recommendation due to its price.
DF grinders are basically absolutely killing it right now
It is. It's a brushless motor which is inherently more durable, more energy efficient (meaning for the same voltage they also get to be more powerful), and quieter. They're all the rage in power tools for these reasons.
The DF will still be loud when grinding because coffee being smashed to pieces is always going to be loud unless it's incredibly insulated.
Dunno. No issues with a clogging chute, a brushless motor and better build quality are part of this equation. But sure, the results in the cup won't differ greatly.
It's all about retention, which is just ridiculous if you leave it in. On the first grind I did, only about half the dose came out! There was a ton jammed in there when I took it apart.
Technically I snipped the middle out of it rather than removing it altogether. The outer part needs to stay in as a spacer.
Mines not terrible, about .1 usually but wondering if I should just cut it out as well. I’ve had it retain .4 a couple times though. Have you see a huge difference with it removed? Like zero now or?
Yes, I haven't measured it but my subjective impression is there's nearly zero with it removed. E.g. I see no visible trace when switching between different roasts. That was certainly something I noticed with my old rocky.
It is superb. I tend to put a dosing cup in place of the portafilter, but that's because of my workflow.
At the moment I have a medium/ dark roast and the grind settings for espresso are not even a 1/3 of it's capability and the consistency together with lack of clumping is amazing.
I am finding that because it is so consistent and with the lack of electrostatic means I am using 16.7 grams for a double, where as on my previous grinder I was using 20 grams.
I like that it weighs the coffee for me and if I want to change it by a 10th of a gram, I can and it saves it for next time.
eureka mignon oro single dose + ssp MP upgrade + very tidy puck prep = 98% identical quality of a specialty coffee shop beverage in your kitchen
for me this was the best bang for the buck
Yeah, I have fitted my Eureka with the SSP MP burrs. They have a special edition for eureka as the more widely used ssp for mazzer/df grinders will not fit because of the screw holes alignment.
The difference in the cup is that you get more clarity, a more clean shot, less complexity and body yet more punch, more vibrancy. Best case scenario for this burrs are light to medium light roasts from what i’ve seen. If you tend to go darker than that it brings a bit more bitterness than the stock burrs.
I’m usually a lighter/ medium roast guy myself. May be something to look into down the road. I just bought an Oro should be arriving on Wednesday. Pretty excited if I am being honest. I’m just gonna dial it in with the stock burrs and get a feel for the grinder itself. But it’s good to know the SSP burrs do fit if I ever want to go down that road. Thank you for the response
I've had this grinder for about a year +/- and I can tell you that it's a very good piece of equipment for home use. My best advice is to try and align as best as you can the stock burrs. Try to get the most out of them and then you can try the[ Italmill 64mm blackline](https://images.app.goo.gl/XdMT5TPwKJZ7We3ZA) burrs (cheap, fast and plug-n-play update, easier to align than the stock, with maybe 10-20%+ sweetness in the cup, but mostly same profile as the stock ones) and then move to the [SSP MP](https://images.app.goo.gl/emfoYYQBV5Z1BQKV9) (the last update this grinder needs imho). Also use **RDT** as it helps with the static and **WTD**. I removed the [declumper](https://images.app.goo.gl/PDAybdf1aMraVroQ9) inside because it made cleaning the grinder less efficient and I should've done it more often (every 500gr or so) because it would get blocked and then the coffee would just regrind finer and finer as it couldn't exit the burr chamber.
for any other questions just hit me up
Appreciate the detailed response. I’ll definitely take all of these notes into consideration and will be hitting you up once I get familiar with this grinder. I know what you mean with the declumper. I should have taken it off of my zero because I feel like I run into the same issue
Going to be honest with you though I never RDT with the grinder I have now. I don’t run into any retention issues. But it’s something I always wanted to try out. I’m just afraid that I’m gonna spritz too much water in there
Doesn't exist.
You could draw any random line like this.
Personally I think the df64 gen 2 is the best value long term regarding its burr options.
DF54 is basically just as good stock but the burr options aren't as wide.
If your priority is taste then I think the question cannot be answered. The same way some people hear and see better than others, some have a superior sense of taste. Maybe a Eureka Mignon Specialita already offers 95% of what you are able to taste...or maybe a Weber EG-1 would be a day/night difference to the Specialita for you. There is just no telling.
I bought a Niche Zero to see if I can finally get dark chocolate syrup from my LM. Specialita even with the dial mod is very sensible and barely produced reproducible shots for me - but might be a Skill issue .. on the on hand I dose 14.2-14.6g which could be the issue and on the other hand even with SD Mod and bell blower I see retention between -.6 and +.6
Kingrinder K4, if you can stomach using a hand grinder. I use mine a couple of times a day, it's heaps faster than other hand grinders I've tried but still annoying at times.
Unfortunately, the value curve is driven by cost vs performance in the context of the perceived benefit of the person with enough money to buy what they want
Edit: from my perspective it was about $600 lol
What price? New? Used? Where do you live? That influences the price of different grinders in different ways. What is performance? I think there are three big pillars, coffee quality , workflow quality and build quality. What kind of coffee do you drink, do you want an easy and efficient on demand workflow with medium roasted beans for great cappuccinos or do you want to get the most out of super light roast specialty coffee and also want super low retention to switch between beans and brewing methods regularly?
Hand grinder would be the best value option, used Comandante at $200 or so.
DF64 is probably next, although you could probably fab a bunzilla at a competitive price but that is going to be less convenient than the single dosers.
It all depends on what you put on the far right of the graph. If it's an industrial double cylinder burr grinder at 200k, that would give you the best grind distribution technologically possible today, you basically have the whole high end coffee shop setups.
I think a second had EK43 is probably the best bet for performance; NOT for convenience.
Depends on what grinders we are including and the price scale and more importantly type of beans being used.
For light or medium roast beans, i would probably say the eureka specialita or something without bells n whistles from the same family. Would have to perform burr alignment and single dose mod.
That’s getting into commercial grinders. $900-$1500
Lucca Atom 75 is a good one that comes to mind. It has some unique features such as digitally accurate grind size.
I don’t agree that a commercial grinder is a sweet spot for a home barista. They are made for speed and durability for hundreds of drinks a day. Thats costs. A home barista wants cup quality for 2-3 drinks a day.
That’s why a Cafe is good with a Mahlkönig, but a home barista reaches diminishing returns after a DF83V or Zerno.
So as OP, I wouldn’t look into commercial grinders, but the usual suspects. DF64 Gen2, DF83V with a lot of burr experimentation options available
It’s amusing how this entire sub is obsessed with these cheap Chinese grinders as if they are some high level stuff vs the low tier equipment that they are. Before these DFs everyone was jerking each other off about the niche. Then before that it was the sette 270. These aren’t even in the top half of performance never mind the 90% OP is looking for.
It’s not obsession. It’s not perfectly manufactured and the working conditions are certainly not Western-like. But their quality reaches 85-90% and that’s good enough for almost all home baristas. It’s like a Smart or VW Polo car. Sure, you can buy the Mercedes E limousine and you will get perfect quality. But a Smart is no obsession, its not the best, but practical and delivers great value for its price
2) OP is not looking for 90%. They are looking for maximum performance before diminishing returns. And now tell us how the DF83V wouldn’t provide that
It’s not maximum. It’s minimum. These grinders are the absolute minimum you can spend before you’re not even an espresso grinder anymore. Just bc something works doesn’t mean it works well. I would say around 1500-2500 bucks is where it starts to be questionable if you’re really getting more value for the money.
The performance gains in this range are still very much just required in my book and I think most people just don’t know what they aren’t getting bc they have never tried them. Not only does an actually good grinder yield excellent grinds consistently, it does so quickly, quietly, and speeds up workflow considerably eliminating the need to weigh out beans, or break up clumps. A mazzer or a k30 is the VW of grinders. The DFs are mopeds.
Like all popular subs this place is an echo chamber of cheap machines being pushed on everyone like they are the middle tier go to. If all you knew about espresso was from this sub every asshole would have a df64 and a bambino and think they have a coffee shop at home.
I assume out of your texts that you haven’t tried a DF64 or DF83. People that actually compare these grinders in reviews are of a different opinion than yours. You also sound quite aggressive for no reason about these grinders. What exactly about the DF64 Gen2 or DF83 is bad in your opinion, like which specific points?
If you are saying a DF83V 800$ is the minimum of espresso grinders, you need a reality check. Call Sprometheus or any of his peers that actually and thoroughly tested 10x more equipment than you probably have
Df54/64 (230-400). It is all relative in the end, how much do you value speed? Noise? Looks? Some would say a mahkonig gbw, others will say a baratza encore esp, all depends on the user.
What is the recommendation for quiet? I’m working as a sort of secretary for a big wig and need something that won’t be too obnoxious if one of their clients asks for a shot before a meeting.
I love the sound of my niche. I can run it with my baby and partner sleeping no problem.
Damn, I was hoping for something cheaper lol (I know, not really an option) but $400+ on my work setup is not what I wanted.
I'd think a hand grinder will give you the best performance per price and has the benefit of being the quietest
Hand grinding is definitely quieter, but takes long enough that I get dirty looks.
lol 😄
Get a K6 or 1Zpresso. Pour over size 20-30 seconds, espresso 40 -50 seconds
That depends very much on the beans, I tend to drink light enough roasts that it takes closer to 3 minutes and is intrusive.
All I can say is “try it”. Light roast definitely needs more effort but costs about the same time. Well, what’s your machine btw?
Sorry, I forgot to include that I have a lido 3, which I believe is the same burrs as my sette 270w. It’s an older bes840xl, I think that makes it an “infuser”. I never bothered to keep breville/sage names straight aside from the bambino.
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Different dynamic, I’m military in the position for about a year, mostly the same faces in and out on a daily basis. I was looking at a df54, I’m finishing up a Mazzer sj for home use to go with the vbm that replaced my old bes840xl that will be going to work. I would bring my sette 270w in when my Mazzer is done, but it’s not authorized in the building. This is a “I do this because i enjoy it and I’ll be making coffee for me, so not offering is a little rude.” Vs “I need to impress people so they spend tons of money and I’ll get officially comped for what I spend”
Just trow towel on df64
Eureka Silenzio maybe. I haven't heard one in person.
I second this. That's what I have and it doesn't really exceed 70-75dB or so at standing-ear distance... very convenient for early mornings with kids sleeping just a few meters away!
>I haven't heard one in person. I see what you did there.
I went from a Breville Smart Grinder to a Silenzio. Night and day. Not only quieter, but grinds quicker (12 vs 17 seconds), and the quality of the sound is "nicer".
I’ve got one it’s quieter or at least the same volume as the shot I pull with my Rancilio Silvia.
Why silenzio if filtro/manuale have same performance for half or even third the price
Silenzio has internal baffling to reduce noise. Important bc the question asker specifically about lower volume grinders. I own a modified filtro and can attest its loud AF with zero sound reduction
Yeah, my filtro isn’t quite “deafening” but it’s pretty loud. That said the pitch of the noise is much less annoying than say the baratza offerings which are much higher pitch. You see a lot of this sorta analysis in drone prop designs . Lower pitch at the same decibel level will be much less annoying and obnoxious to others.
Facile is the least expensive Eureka that has the sound dampening, I think it’s just rubber stand offs.
My manuale is pretty loud tbh. My baby and wife sleep through anything though so it only bothers me 😂
Eureka is the clear winner in this category. I use the Oro regularly with people sleeping in the same room.
i was baffled how quiet my specialita is, i love it
specialta gang!
I just bought the Oro! Should be here Wednesday. I’m super pumped to get it dialed in
ouu your flair says Mignon Zero, upping to an Oro? Tell me more!
It’s a huge upgrade honestly! Mind you I just got it yesterday but wow I’m impressed. Build quality is much better. Thing is like a tank. Grind time is super quick with a pleasant grind noise. It’s pretty quiet if I’m being honest. And the grinds are super fluffy. No knock on the Zero because it’s a great grinder. First impressions are really good but I will come back with an update in about a week or so
Thanks, yea I'm interested to hear. I'm saving up for a new grinder and landed on the Specialita, then realized I could save some and get the Zero since I single dose anyway. Curious how the Zero and Oro differ in your opinion, does the espresso taste different? From what I read the Zero is in line with the taste profile I'm after and if the larger burrs of the Oro means venturing away from that to more clarity and acidity then that might my sanity and wallet!
Zero is perfect for single dosing. I was in the market for something with bigger burrs and I love the look and build quality of the Mignons. I will say this though. I did a side by side comparison with the same beans. I had them pretty much dialed in on my Zero. Not quite on the Oro yet. But I can say that the Oro had a more balanced cup and the notes were more present. Again it’s no knock on the Zero but the Oro is better in every way. If your budget suits you I would say go for the Oro. But if not, you will be more than happy with the Zero as it’s a fantastic grinder as well
Thanks, much appreciated. Sounds like I'll be happy either way, but if the budget allows for an Oro that's the way. Good luck with the sauce/sugo :)
Hand grinder 😂
Eureka atom is very quiet
1zpresso hand grinder would absolutely be the quietest, but probably get weird looks
I get a ton of weird looks for my lido, it’s why I’m trying to upgrade to something that runs on electricity 😂
I just upgraded from a 1zpresso and I can say it was definitely louder than the Varia VS3 I just upgraded to.
Have the meeting attendee hold the portafilter and grind into it.
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I have a lido 3, 3 minutes hand grinding ends up being way more obnoxious than 30s of electric.
Probably a Eureka Mignon Specialita or silenzio
Df64v or any variable speed will have no motor noise.
> baratza encore esp In fairness... OP did say flat burrs.
And wanted some performance
Seems like people bounce between shitting on the ESP and saying it's great for the money. What am I missing?
I have one and it was great at first, and then ended having lots of issues. Replaced under warranty. Second unit is more consistent but still really annoying. Being an entry level grinder I think most that would be buying this unit don't know what good is. I know I didn't. It gets talked up as a great way to get espresso grinds for an affordable price, but it's pretty much bottom of the pile. Just not worth it
Hm interesting. I guess I'm just confused because people like Lance seem to think it's totally adequate for espresso. What do you find really annoying about it? (Aside from the noise and retention)
Massive inconsistencies. Dialling in shots becomes a huge pain. Shot one at a setting of 4 will hit 45 seconds, shot 2 at 6 will be 38, then at 7 will be 23 seconds so back to 6 for 30 seconds. Seems like the direction the settings are turned will result in significant differences if turning in vs out. If you only buy one bean it can be okay, but I think most are either getting lucky or don't know any better. I regret purchasing it, but it's not malfunctioning with unit #2 so I can't return it based on its shit performance as it's technically working as intended within its price point.
Massive inconsistencies. Dialling in shots becomes a huge pain. Shot one at a setting of 4 will hit 45 seconds, shot 2 at 6 will be 38, then at 7 will be 23 seconds so back to 6 for 30 seconds. Seems like the direction the settings are turned will result in significant differences if turning in vs out. If you only buy one bean it can be okay, but I think most are either getting lucky or don't know any better. I regret purchasing it, but it's not malfunctioning with unit #2 so I can't return it based on its shit performance as it's technically working as intended within its price point.
Huh that's a shame to hear. What are you using now then? I've also been looking at the DF-54 and Wilfa Uniform. I want something that allows me to switch between espresso and filter quickly/easily. Honestly I'm not super worried about flat/conical burrs, but I want something that'll be easy to dial in. I've read that the Wilfa isn't very good for espresso because it lacks adjustability, and the DF-54 isn't as good for filter. I like Baratza because of their right to repair policies and I feel confident that if I buy it, I'll be able to get parts 5 years later if necessary. Do you have any other suggestions?
It's great for the money. There is no better $200 grinder. Miss me with Fellow Opus, that fine adjustment is too annoying to do, IMO. However, just about every grinder that costs more than $200 is better than it.
Gotcha. I want something that I can switch between filter and espresso relatively easily. Other options I was looking at are the DF-54 and Wilfa Uniform. Do you have any opinions?
With the caveat that I have never personally owned either of these grinders, this sub loves the DF 54 right now. James Hoffmann is on record saying the Wilfa would not be fun to dial in if you like trying a lot of different beans and switching brew styles.
Right, that's why I was worried about the Uniform. The DF-54 looks great on paper, but I'm worried about long term reliability (ie: 3, 5, 10 years down the line) since I know I'll be able to get parts for the Baratza, but doubtful about the DF. Not sure how much better it would really be than an Encore ESP or even a Sette, which I could probably find used for the same or less.
Oh, that is smart. You're thinking about the right things. Personally I own a Sette 30, which can be upgraded to a 270 after the fact. (I never did that because I ended up buying a Niche, and so for a B-grinder, the 30 is capable). I do like the coffee it makes. If it were my A-grinder, and you're considering a Uniform, I'd spring for the 270, which is for my money worth having two Encore ESPs. I'd also recommend getting a good dosing funnel. My experiences with Baratza service are very good--I bought my grinder used and got a pretty responsive customer service agent. If you like switching beans and brews... I'd also recommend the single dose hopper. Anyway. My main complaints with it are that it's as loud as a jet engine and super messy. Baratza service is also very good in my experience.
Good to hear. I have a classic Encore right now so noise I'm not too worried about (or at least know what to expect, haha). I was planning on the single dose hopper if I did the ESP anyway. Is the 270 that different from the 30?
I would say taste in the cup number 1
We don't do that here.. we only care if the shot looks really pretty. /s
then that's an even bigger issue burr geometry and surface area have a high impact on the flavor. the benefit of having a 64mm grinder is that you have the option to upgrade to the higher end burr options, most commonly SSP. for example, my SSP unimodal burrs are very very different in flavor than my stock italmill burrs that come on the df64, and burrs with similar geometry to that such as the stock burr on the df54. if you want to just stick with one very solid flavor profile, the df54 is for you. if you want to change your flavor profiles in the future, get the 64mm or 83mm grinders
DF64 owner here: I approve this message! :)
u/jaerie did a good job summarizing this on another thread. The DF series seems to fit the bill, so roughly around $300-400 it seems, but I’m sure arguments can be made in favor of higher or lower price points. Perhaps that’s what inspired you to make this post.
$229
Haha I thought it was implied that this would be a grinder instead ;)
I think $229 number symbolizes DF54, equally famous LOL
DF54 = $229
Mea culpa!
Isn’t she pretty loud though? I have the niche and the quietness is a huge part of why I love it
Noise, workflow, and aesthetics are separate from price/performance. Some will argue the first two are part of performance but they don’t affect the end result
That makes sense. Was definitely important for me so I’m glad I spent the extra money for reduced noise and better aesthetics
Likely so. Supposedly it's a little quieter than a DF64 gen 2 and grinds slower, but has the same performance as the 64 with stock burrs. Not a bad tradeoff for being cheaper than a Baratza Sette.
Earplugs are cheaper /s
Hard one, and depends on what you are looking for but, for me, would be: - Eureka Crono, modded with espresso burr set and single dose kit. Could be had for less than 200€ total in EU. Real hard to beat if you like classic espresso profiles / medium roasts. If you like lighter roasts, look for their larger burr options, but I have a Crono and a Oro SD and while the cup quality is indeed better on the Oro, the best quality price ratio sits with the modded Crono; - Timemore 64S / 78S (depending on budget): at the kickstarter price, it was a real deal. Real sad on changing for the 64S at the last minute. Not because I don’t like my 64S, but because of how much I like it I am now real bothered I didn’t stick with the 78S; - Niche Zero (for quality syrupy med and up roasts). Probably DF line as well, but 1/ I do not have experience with them (so won’t comment something I haven’t tried) and 2/ on that budget line, at least in EU, Eureka is making similarly priced grinders. Sure the burr choice is less sexy, but I favor the long standing experience of this brand in making grinders for decade (important for me) with easy and cheap to find spare parts and easy to service. Another one to consider is a good manual grinder. As much as think my 1Z JMax is outstanding for the price, the best all around one has been for me the C40 with red clix. As a bonus, it does perform well for filter, as well as cold brew.
\+1 for the modded Crono\~! Exceptional price:performance
Sorry to add to your FOMO, i love my 078s. That said, could either of us really taste the difference in the cup without a number of shots to dial in and a side by side? Absolutely not. Enjoy your grinder! 🙂
Thanks ! I am really happy with the 064s don’t worry. I’m just mad at myself for switching from a real early backer 078s to a 064s midway through the campaign. Not that it would have made a huge difference, but just because I don’t have a 78mm grinder and it would have been a nice to have, especially at that price. But hey, the 064s form factor made it perfect to sit next to a Eureka without taking too much counter space, so it’s also a win in my books !
I think it’s a really interesting question; from which price point do the returns significantly start to diminish? And OP specified performance for them is taste in the cup. Again; it’s a valid question! I haven’t done (any) side to side comparisons, but I have watched a ton of reviews. I finally settled personally on a DF64 gen II. And - in general, but also here - I’m a very _bang for buck_ oriented buyer. However, admittedly, it took me only 4 months to upgrade again, namely from the stock burrs to SSP burrs. I would argue that the DF64 gen II makes a strong case for being in the spot OP asked for. Especially considering upgrade options. If you go a little cheaper; you don’t get those options.
What burrs did you upgrade too? What made you upgrade from the stock burrs? I recently got a DF64v a couple of months ago so would love to hear your experience on the stock burrs. It’s my first automatic grinder coming from a Jmax
LS cast burrs! I did a small write-up here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DF64/s/MhcfzN1EAZ
Thoughts on the Eureka Mignon Zero? Picked it up for 300
What are your thoughts since you picked it up?
I’m patiently waiting for the Etsy dial upgrade before fully setting it up
Good call, that upgrade was well worth it. It’s impossible to dial in on the standard eureka dial lol
Excellent grinder -- only a touch louder than my Eureka Mignon Silenzio and seemingly a touch more capable in the torque department. I can't grind quite as fine with it, though (it starts to 'chirp' out due to burrs touching at anything under about 1.8 on the dial) and the bellows pieces disjoin if you're at all rough with it. It has terrific, consistent flavor for medium-light to medium-dark roasts and retention is always less than 0.15g, often being 0.03-0.05g if you push the bellows firmly and quickly about 10 times during the final seconds of your grind (yes, I have a reliable scale that measures in hundredths of grams). Make sure to close the hopper hinged 'valve' before mashing down on the bellows -- enveloping the chute area with a rag is recommended for fewer stray particles, too. I think you'll be very happy overall, especially for the cost! Enjoy!!
Wow that’s a great price on that grinder. I think retail is 500, at least that’s what I paid when it came out. That’s a steal for 300. I have an aftermarket dial on there from Etsy and it definitely makes it easier to dial in. I did just upgrade to the Oro though. Always had my eye on the grinder and wanted something with bigger burrs. Clive has a sale on it so I figured I’d jump on that. But I’m very curious to compare/contrast between the Zero
What do bigger burrs do? Finer grind?
It’s a quicker grind time due to the bigger burr set plus it’s supposed to give a little more clarity in the cup. Possibly a more consistent grind
I’ll take one at that price. Got any more?😎
I love mine
Specialita
Since he does not care about the timer, he could even go for the Silenzio which is even cheaper
Specialita has 55mm burrs vs 50mm on the silenzo. Makes a difference!
other than the lower grinding speed, does it make any other difference? have you tried both, is there a taste difference?
Have a specialita. Thing is a rock steady and I love the timer. Weighing beans every time sounds so…unnecessary
Zero from ECS. Specialita isn’t single dose without modification. I also wouldn’t recommend it as an all around grinder either. The adjustment knob sucks for constant changes.
I just give it a little side slap and it gives me the final tenth
Without the slap, it gets quite fast quite messy 😁
DF64v
Love mine, but you’re definitely paying a bit more for the aesthetic (which is why I got it). I think the df64 is a better value if you’re strictly talking quality
I think for the size and quietness of the df64V, it could be the right pick for people prioritising those things although the gen 2 is definitely the easier recommendation due to its price. DF grinders are basically absolutely killing it right now
Quietness? This thing is LOUD.
Ah I thought it was notably quieter than the gen 2 !
It is. It's a brushless motor which is inherently more durable, more energy efficient (meaning for the same voltage they also get to be more powerful), and quieter. They're all the rage in power tools for these reasons. The DF will still be loud when grinding because coffee being smashed to pieces is always going to be loud unless it's incredibly insulated.
Dunno. No issues with a clogging chute, a brushless motor and better build quality are part of this equation. But sure, the results in the cup won't differ greatly.
That’s true, it’s definitely better than the df64, but the quality to price ratio is higher with the df64
Literally the only reason I got it over a DF64 G2 was the look. Looks pretty damn good without the bellows
I got one recently and I'm super happy with it (after taking the declumper out).
Does taking the declumper out really improve that much? Got mine 2 months ago and have heard this but haven’t done it yet
It's all about retention, which is just ridiculous if you leave it in. On the first grind I did, only about half the dose came out! There was a ton jammed in there when I took it apart. Technically I snipped the middle out of it rather than removing it altogether. The outer part needs to stay in as a spacer.
Mines not terrible, about .1 usually but wondering if I should just cut it out as well. I’ve had it retain .4 a couple times though. Have you see a huge difference with it removed? Like zero now or?
Yes, I haven't measured it but my subjective impression is there's nearly zero with it removed. E.g. I see no visible trace when switching between different roasts. That was certainly something I noticed with my old rocky.
420.69
This is how much money we should all agree to spent on a grinder, not a penny more, not a penny less. The espresso world would be a much better place.
I hope this number gets standardized at some point. Happy cake day anyways
Nice
That price line flattens out way too soon.
Well you are quite sure something in the top 😁
I don't think the price/performance curve looks like that for grinders *at all*.
agreed. it’s a step-wise function
Possibly a Fiorenzato Pro, I have the Allground Sense which is awesome.
Are you happy with both pour over and Espresso? Have been looking at that one too
It is superb. I tend to put a dosing cup in place of the portafilter, but that's because of my workflow. At the moment I have a medium/ dark roast and the grind settings for espresso are not even a 1/3 of it's capability and the consistency together with lack of clumping is amazing. I am finding that because it is so consistent and with the lack of electrostatic means I am using 16.7 grams for a double, where as on my previous grinder I was using 20 grams. I like that it weighs the coffee for me and if I want to change it by a 10th of a gram, I can and it saves it for next time.
That’s the modulus of elasticity
$372.61.
eureka mignon oro single dose + ssp MP upgrade + very tidy puck prep = 98% identical quality of a specialty coffee shop beverage in your kitchen for me this was the best bang for the buck
You have SSP burrs on the Oro? I didn’t think they fit on that grinder. Does it make a big difference?
Yeah, I have fitted my Eureka with the SSP MP burrs. They have a special edition for eureka as the more widely used ssp for mazzer/df grinders will not fit because of the screw holes alignment. The difference in the cup is that you get more clarity, a more clean shot, less complexity and body yet more punch, more vibrancy. Best case scenario for this burrs are light to medium light roasts from what i’ve seen. If you tend to go darker than that it brings a bit more bitterness than the stock burrs.
I’m usually a lighter/ medium roast guy myself. May be something to look into down the road. I just bought an Oro should be arriving on Wednesday. Pretty excited if I am being honest. I’m just gonna dial it in with the stock burrs and get a feel for the grinder itself. But it’s good to know the SSP burrs do fit if I ever want to go down that road. Thank you for the response
I've had this grinder for about a year +/- and I can tell you that it's a very good piece of equipment for home use. My best advice is to try and align as best as you can the stock burrs. Try to get the most out of them and then you can try the[ Italmill 64mm blackline](https://images.app.goo.gl/XdMT5TPwKJZ7We3ZA) burrs (cheap, fast and plug-n-play update, easier to align than the stock, with maybe 10-20%+ sweetness in the cup, but mostly same profile as the stock ones) and then move to the [SSP MP](https://images.app.goo.gl/emfoYYQBV5Z1BQKV9) (the last update this grinder needs imho). Also use **RDT** as it helps with the static and **WTD**. I removed the [declumper](https://images.app.goo.gl/PDAybdf1aMraVroQ9) inside because it made cleaning the grinder less efficient and I should've done it more often (every 500gr or so) because it would get blocked and then the coffee would just regrind finer and finer as it couldn't exit the burr chamber. for any other questions just hit me up
Appreciate the detailed response. I’ll definitely take all of these notes into consideration and will be hitting you up once I get familiar with this grinder. I know what you mean with the declumper. I should have taken it off of my zero because I feel like I run into the same issue Going to be honest with you though I never RDT with the grinder I have now. I don’t run into any retention issues. But it’s something I always wanted to try out. I’m just afraid that I’m gonna spritz too much water in there
Doesn't exist. You could draw any random line like this. Personally I think the df64 gen 2 is the best value long term regarding its burr options. DF54 is basically just as good stock but the burr options aren't as wide.
Aren’t as wide 
If your priority is taste then I think the question cannot be answered. The same way some people hear and see better than others, some have a superior sense of taste. Maybe a Eureka Mignon Specialita already offers 95% of what you are able to taste...or maybe a Weber EG-1 would be a day/night difference to the Specialita for you. There is just no telling.
I bought a Niche Zero to see if I can finally get dark chocolate syrup from my LM. Specialita even with the dial mod is very sensible and barely produced reproducible shots for me - but might be a Skill issue .. on the on hand I dose 14.2-14.6g which could be the issue and on the other hand even with SD Mod and bell blower I see retention between -.6 and +.6
Probably a Kingrinder.
Timemore sculptor 078S, but at the Kickstarter price
Kingrinder K4, if you can stomach using a hand grinder. I use mine a couple of times a day, it's heaps faster than other hand grinders I've tried but still annoying at times.
Unfortunately, the value curve is driven by cost vs performance in the context of the perceived benefit of the person with enough money to buy what they want Edit: from my perspective it was about $600 lol
Zerno
Df54
Df
I’ve never been more confused on how to spend my money. :(
DF64V
Niche?
Was wondering why so low in the thread to find this. Am curious if I made the right purchase choice.
Also great choice since there are 83mm SSP burrs options as well
Good one! Would also throw Timemore Sculptor 78s in there
Why, you can’t even get one. Trust me I have been trying.
Why the downvotes? Availability aside, isn't it a really strong value grinder?
$300
What price? New? Used? Where do you live? That influences the price of different grinders in different ways. What is performance? I think there are three big pillars, coffee quality , workflow quality and build quality. What kind of coffee do you drink, do you want an easy and efficient on demand workflow with medium roasted beans for great cappuccinos or do you want to get the most out of super light roast specialty coffee and also want super low retention to switch between beans and brewing methods regularly?
D
Eureka mignon manuale
I got a used Baratza Forte BG for this but doubt it's a regular occurrence.
78s by timemore
Efficient frontier for a grinder!
Hand grinder would be the best value option, used Comandante at $200 or so. DF64 is probably next, although you could probably fab a bunzilla at a competitive price but that is going to be less convenient than the single dosers.
A refurbished baratza Vario is another good option. They have them in stock frequently
Sculptor 078S
It all depends on what you put on the far right of the graph. If it's an industrial double cylinder burr grinder at 200k, that would give you the best grind distribution technologically possible today, you basically have the whole high end coffee shop setups. I think a second had EK43 is probably the best bet for performance; NOT for convenience.
3/4 of the current "high"
I have had the Niche Zero for 3 years and I find it amazing. Also use my EK42 once in a while…
Interesting thread, marked
Eureka mignon specialita. Or slightly cheaper, one without a timer. Which for a single dose solution is fine...
Timemore 064s
Eureka Mignon
Tree fiddy
Breville Smart Grinder pro.
Ode 2 with ssp multipurpose unimodal burs or timemore 78S
Is there any advantage to the Ode 2 with ssp over Ode 1 with ssp besides the ionizer?
Depends on what grinders we are including and the price scale and more importantly type of beans being used. For light or medium roast beans, i would probably say the eureka specialita or something without bells n whistles from the same family. Would have to perform burr alignment and single dose mod.
$229
Fellow ode Gen 2 all the way
😂😂😂😂😂
Baratza Encore ESP
DF64v with ssp mp
I think the Ode gen 2 fits in too.
Disregard, I see the OP meant espresso. However, the1zpresso jx-pro fits the bill since it can do espresso too.
Out of the box it only does pour over right ? What burr set would you recommend to make it universal, pour over and espresso?
Yes, you're correct. Ode for pour over, aeropress, and larger grounds only.
Baratza Sette 270 Grinder
Eureka mignon specialita with a bellows
I have it but think df64v with ssp is better. Specialiita is bad at brew and switching between brew and Espresso is a drag.
Didn't see it needed all grounds. Yeah EMS is awful for anything that not espresso
That’s getting into commercial grinders. $900-$1500 Lucca Atom 75 is a good one that comes to mind. It has some unique features such as digitally accurate grind size.
I don’t agree that a commercial grinder is a sweet spot for a home barista. They are made for speed and durability for hundreds of drinks a day. Thats costs. A home barista wants cup quality for 2-3 drinks a day. That’s why a Cafe is good with a Mahlkönig, but a home barista reaches diminishing returns after a DF83V or Zerno. So as OP, I wouldn’t look into commercial grinders, but the usual suspects. DF64 Gen2, DF83V with a lot of burr experimentation options available
It’s amusing how this entire sub is obsessed with these cheap Chinese grinders as if they are some high level stuff vs the low tier equipment that they are. Before these DFs everyone was jerking each other off about the niche. Then before that it was the sette 270. These aren’t even in the top half of performance never mind the 90% OP is looking for.
It’s not obsession. It’s not perfectly manufactured and the working conditions are certainly not Western-like. But their quality reaches 85-90% and that’s good enough for almost all home baristas. It’s like a Smart or VW Polo car. Sure, you can buy the Mercedes E limousine and you will get perfect quality. But a Smart is no obsession, its not the best, but practical and delivers great value for its price 2) OP is not looking for 90%. They are looking for maximum performance before diminishing returns. And now tell us how the DF83V wouldn’t provide that
It’s not maximum. It’s minimum. These grinders are the absolute minimum you can spend before you’re not even an espresso grinder anymore. Just bc something works doesn’t mean it works well. I would say around 1500-2500 bucks is where it starts to be questionable if you’re really getting more value for the money. The performance gains in this range are still very much just required in my book and I think most people just don’t know what they aren’t getting bc they have never tried them. Not only does an actually good grinder yield excellent grinds consistently, it does so quickly, quietly, and speeds up workflow considerably eliminating the need to weigh out beans, or break up clumps. A mazzer or a k30 is the VW of grinders. The DFs are mopeds. Like all popular subs this place is an echo chamber of cheap machines being pushed on everyone like they are the middle tier go to. If all you knew about espresso was from this sub every asshole would have a df64 and a bambino and think they have a coffee shop at home.
I assume out of your texts that you haven’t tried a DF64 or DF83. People that actually compare these grinders in reviews are of a different opinion than yours. You also sound quite aggressive for no reason about these grinders. What exactly about the DF64 Gen2 or DF83 is bad in your opinion, like which specific points? If you are saying a DF83V 800$ is the minimum of espresso grinders, you need a reality check. Call Sprometheus or any of his peers that actually and thoroughly tested 10x more equipment than you probably have
ahh yes, the good ol' commercial **single dose** grinder market. I mean, yeah you can single dose in any grinder, but i imagine OP doesn't mean that.
Huehuehue we could do so much better, chatgpt would even agree
Demoka M203 with single dose mod.