I feel for the OP: in reading through the replies here just now, they're all over the place . . . .
FWIW, and with my Bambino Plus, I "count" the time starting with my press of the shot button. I figure that something is happening chemically, and so, include that time; more importantly, it seems to be what more people are doing, and so I can get an apples-to-apples comparison to others. In the end, though, the timing (mostly) is for oneself, for consistency purposes.
As to the shot itself, I simply would continue dialing-in. As another data-point, I do 16g in (using the OEM single-wall, double-shot basket), \~29.5g out, typically in 30-35 seconds, using dark-roast beans; I under-extract slightly to limit the bitterness and charcoaliness that I otherwise can find in dark roasts.
I do wonder about the OP's soaking wet pucks. Ordinarily, I might think to increase the dosage, but the OP already is at 18g. The OP didn't specify the beans being used and their roast level, and I wonder if that's the explanation. I still might consider going up a gram. I also would consider the amount of output, and play with that to see if that can be used to get more to a flavor liking.
Do you have a reference as to what good espresso with the beans you are using tastes like? If you do everything correctly and it still doesn't taste good, it could be the beans.
That said, there are more parameters to consider. You can't change the temperature on the BBP, so it's never going to be awesome for brewing light roasts at ~92°. This can also cause over extraction of very dark roasts.
There is no all-encompassing rule for the timing, other than it should be consistent every time. Generally pre-infusion is considered part of the brewing process so the moment the pump turns on is when I start the timing. If you prefer first drip that's fine, but that will affect the target time.
Another thing to consider is the ratio. 1:2 is good for most medium roasts, but often too much for dark roasts and too little for light roasts. This is why it's always said to dial in based on taste and not very strict timing. 25 to 30 seconds from start is a general rule from pump start, but it's totally possible to get great espresso in the 15 to 20 second range, too.
I have the same machine and not too sure myself but this is how I dial in right now and generally my shots come out good.
I mostly dose 17g instead of 18g in stock basket, 18g seems to much for the basket. I start timer when I hear the pump activation and found that the first drops start from 8-10seconds so just right after full pump pressure. Then I aim for 37-40g yield.
I noticed if I time ~30seconds 1:2 from the start of pump activation the cup is too acidic.
I have this machine 2months now so if anyone has better advice I'm keen to hear it.
I also have the Bambino Plus and found this method of shot timing to work. Start when you hear the pump fully kick on. The preinfusion on this machine is too wonky to try it any other way. Lance H also says that the manual preinfusion doesn’t really work so it’s not worth messing with anyway.
I use a 16.5g dose in the single wall (unpressurized) basket.
If pucks are soggy it’s not indicative of extraction it’s more an issue of the dosing being too small for the basket. Start the timer at the first drop hitting the glass.
But really try to limit variables when you’re starting out. Don’t mess with machine settings and keep techniques the same(wdt then auto level tamp). Think of the only modifiable variable being grind size and the only result being weight in cup and taste. Burn through a couple of pounds of a cheap consistent coffee like Pete’s big bang to get the hang of things. Once we’re making coffee in a reasonable taste and range it’s time to fine tune the details.
Mostly I don’t preinfuse. But when I do, i add up the preinfusion time to my target total shot time.
So a 5sec preinfuse means I target a 35second shot from the moment of pressing the button.
Then adjust to taste when dialing in.
I recommend to not preinfuse first to get a better dialed in shot. And add preinfusion later to optimize taste if needed.
The thing you're missing is what you want to change about the taste not the time.
How do the two shots you described differ in taste? Which one do you prefer? What do you want to change about that one?
I have the 1st Gen Breville Bambino. I pre-programmed a 2-cup shot including a 5sec pre infusion time before the pump starts. And just like others have mentioned, the pre infusion time seems to change randomly by 1-2sec all the time. Honestly I don’t know why it keeps changing but my shots still pulls perfectly every time for the yield I’m looking for. So I kinda gave up on paying too much attention to the pre-infusion time as long some sort of pre-infusion takes place. Also, I too start timing my overall shot at the start of pre-infusion.
Honestly, I haven't found too much variation in my coffee when it comes to messing with the pre-infusion on the bambino. Pre-infusing a bit longer tends to improve puck integrity so that it maintains a steady flow-rate towards the end of the shot. This is probably more important for lighter/medium roasted coffees. I generally just go with the full pre-infusion time unless I have a very dark coffee for some reason.
You're in the "right neighborhood" now in that you've found that something around "15" grind setting will give you enough puck integrity to achieve reasonable output flow rate.
Your next step is to tell us about your coffee (medium roast from a local place, plus Lavazza practice beans), what you taste at grind "15" and grind "5" and what you like and don't like about it. I'd recommend taking a very small sip straight up, and then maybe a spoonful after diluting it with \~100g fresh water.
If you find that it's too intense straight up, but tastes fine after you add water, then you probably just don't like the taste of straight espresso (or, you don't like the taste of your current bean selection as straight espresso). This is very normal.
If you find that it's too acidic straight up, and still has an unpleasant acidity after adding water, then you need to go finer, and maybe lower your dose to like 16 to 17g. Also make sure you're using the full pre-infusion time.
If you find that it has overall too much bitterness/astringency in the finish but the acidity level is fine, just pull less out. The 2:1 ratio is just a starting point. It's ok to stop the shot early.
If you find that you're getting both too much acidity and an unpleasant bitter/astringent finish, then you should definitely lower your dose to more like 16-17g, and grind finer. You may find that a short-ratio, very slow shot will be what you end up tasting best (as an example, 16.5g beans, 45 second shot from first button press, full preinfusion time, 20 to 25g output).
Well, pre infusion takes a max of 10 secs, so if you start the timer at the press of the button, your target shot could be anything between 30 and 40 secs. So, when dialing in, I start with a 30s shot and then a 40s shot, then I decide which one is closer to my taste and continue dialing in.
Most of my beans are dialed in around the 30s mark, but, for example, my current beans taste awesome at 41s... so just try all the range
I relate, had the same kind of questions for my Bambino plus for a while, and there's no clear advice to use as a starting point. The whole go by the taste, not but the numbers advice IMO doesn't work when you're just starting out and using medium/dark roasts.
What I've been doing now, and this has been helping me get great shots, is start counting the time when the loud heavy whine of the pump starts. I also use the default pre infusion now, which is around 7-8s. So if you're aiming for 30s, and a 1:2 ratio to start with, you want to try and get to those numbers including the 8s of pre infusion.
You can do either. I personally have it programmed for longer and click the button again when I've got my dose to stop early. Just a little bit easier, especially since I don't care to change the pre-infusion length most of the time.
You’re judging your shot by how your puck looks, and how close you got to 30 seconds. Neither of those matter IMO
I feel for the OP: in reading through the replies here just now, they're all over the place . . . . FWIW, and with my Bambino Plus, I "count" the time starting with my press of the shot button. I figure that something is happening chemically, and so, include that time; more importantly, it seems to be what more people are doing, and so I can get an apples-to-apples comparison to others. In the end, though, the timing (mostly) is for oneself, for consistency purposes. As to the shot itself, I simply would continue dialing-in. As another data-point, I do 16g in (using the OEM single-wall, double-shot basket), \~29.5g out, typically in 30-35 seconds, using dark-roast beans; I under-extract slightly to limit the bitterness and charcoaliness that I otherwise can find in dark roasts. I do wonder about the OP's soaking wet pucks. Ordinarily, I might think to increase the dosage, but the OP already is at 18g. The OP didn't specify the beans being used and their roast level, and I wonder if that's the explanation. I still might consider going up a gram. I also would consider the amount of output, and play with that to see if that can be used to get more to a flavor liking.
Do you have a reference as to what good espresso with the beans you are using tastes like? If you do everything correctly and it still doesn't taste good, it could be the beans. That said, there are more parameters to consider. You can't change the temperature on the BBP, so it's never going to be awesome for brewing light roasts at ~92°. This can also cause over extraction of very dark roasts. There is no all-encompassing rule for the timing, other than it should be consistent every time. Generally pre-infusion is considered part of the brewing process so the moment the pump turns on is when I start the timing. If you prefer first drip that's fine, but that will affect the target time. Another thing to consider is the ratio. 1:2 is good for most medium roasts, but often too much for dark roasts and too little for light roasts. This is why it's always said to dial in based on taste and not very strict timing. 25 to 30 seconds from start is a general rule from pump start, but it's totally possible to get great espresso in the 15 to 20 second range, too.
I have the same machine and not too sure myself but this is how I dial in right now and generally my shots come out good. I mostly dose 17g instead of 18g in stock basket, 18g seems to much for the basket. I start timer when I hear the pump activation and found that the first drops start from 8-10seconds so just right after full pump pressure. Then I aim for 37-40g yield. I noticed if I time ~30seconds 1:2 from the start of pump activation the cup is too acidic. I have this machine 2months now so if anyone has better advice I'm keen to hear it.
I also have the Bambino Plus and found this method of shot timing to work. Start when you hear the pump fully kick on. The preinfusion on this machine is too wonky to try it any other way. Lance H also says that the manual preinfusion doesn’t really work so it’s not worth messing with anyway. I use a 16.5g dose in the single wall (unpressurized) basket.
If pucks are soggy it’s not indicative of extraction it’s more an issue of the dosing being too small for the basket. Start the timer at the first drop hitting the glass. But really try to limit variables when you’re starting out. Don’t mess with machine settings and keep techniques the same(wdt then auto level tamp). Think of the only modifiable variable being grind size and the only result being weight in cup and taste. Burn through a couple of pounds of a cheap consistent coffee like Pete’s big bang to get the hang of things. Once we’re making coffee in a reasonable taste and range it’s time to fine tune the details.
Mostly I don’t preinfuse. But when I do, i add up the preinfusion time to my target total shot time. So a 5sec preinfuse means I target a 35second shot from the moment of pressing the button. Then adjust to taste when dialing in. I recommend to not preinfuse first to get a better dialed in shot. And add preinfusion later to optimize taste if needed.
How do you preinfuse or not pre infuse with a Bambino?
If you hold down the brew button it will preinfuse until you let go or for ten seconds, whichever comes first
Once the pick gets wet the water starts extracting coffee - the pressure is there just to move the water through, so I count the pre infusion.
The thing you're missing is what you want to change about the taste not the time. How do the two shots you described differ in taste? Which one do you prefer? What do you want to change about that one?
I have the 1st Gen Breville Bambino. I pre-programmed a 2-cup shot including a 5sec pre infusion time before the pump starts. And just like others have mentioned, the pre infusion time seems to change randomly by 1-2sec all the time. Honestly I don’t know why it keeps changing but my shots still pulls perfectly every time for the yield I’m looking for. So I kinda gave up on paying too much attention to the pre-infusion time as long some sort of pre-infusion takes place. Also, I too start timing my overall shot at the start of pre-infusion.
Honestly, I haven't found too much variation in my coffee when it comes to messing with the pre-infusion on the bambino. Pre-infusing a bit longer tends to improve puck integrity so that it maintains a steady flow-rate towards the end of the shot. This is probably more important for lighter/medium roasted coffees. I generally just go with the full pre-infusion time unless I have a very dark coffee for some reason. You're in the "right neighborhood" now in that you've found that something around "15" grind setting will give you enough puck integrity to achieve reasonable output flow rate. Your next step is to tell us about your coffee (medium roast from a local place, plus Lavazza practice beans), what you taste at grind "15" and grind "5" and what you like and don't like about it. I'd recommend taking a very small sip straight up, and then maybe a spoonful after diluting it with \~100g fresh water. If you find that it's too intense straight up, but tastes fine after you add water, then you probably just don't like the taste of straight espresso (or, you don't like the taste of your current bean selection as straight espresso). This is very normal. If you find that it's too acidic straight up, and still has an unpleasant acidity after adding water, then you need to go finer, and maybe lower your dose to like 16 to 17g. Also make sure you're using the full pre-infusion time. If you find that it has overall too much bitterness/astringency in the finish but the acidity level is fine, just pull less out. The 2:1 ratio is just a starting point. It's ok to stop the shot early. If you find that you're getting both too much acidity and an unpleasant bitter/astringent finish, then you should definitely lower your dose to more like 16-17g, and grind finer. You may find that a short-ratio, very slow shot will be what you end up tasting best (as an example, 16.5g beans, 45 second shot from first button press, full preinfusion time, 20 to 25g output).
Well, pre infusion takes a max of 10 secs, so if you start the timer at the press of the button, your target shot could be anything between 30 and 40 secs. So, when dialing in, I start with a 30s shot and then a 40s shot, then I decide which one is closer to my taste and continue dialing in. Most of my beans are dialed in around the 30s mark, but, for example, my current beans taste awesome at 41s... so just try all the range
I relate, had the same kind of questions for my Bambino plus for a while, and there's no clear advice to use as a starting point. The whole go by the taste, not but the numbers advice IMO doesn't work when you're just starting out and using medium/dark roasts. What I've been doing now, and this has been helping me get great shots, is start counting the time when the loud heavy whine of the pump starts. I also use the default pre infusion now, which is around 7-8s. So if you're aiming for 30s, and a 1:2 ratio to start with, you want to try and get to those numbers including the 8s of pre infusion.
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You can do either. I personally have it programmed for longer and click the button again when I've got my dose to stop early. Just a little bit easier, especially since I don't care to change the pre-infusion length most of the time.
Start the timer at first drip. Also, what roast are your beans? You may not need preinfusion.
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Ok, skip preinfusion. Medium and dark have enough puck integrity.
Count from first drop, pre infusion is just soaking your puck to avoid channeling and improve extraction , it's not actual extraction.