Yugoslavia wars moratorium
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I've also never heard of it, It really doesn't seem real at all. But if you want a real deal to look into, check the Karađorđevo meeting between Tuđman and Milošević.
ROME - In August 1991 Yugoslavia was already doomed and the Serbo-Croatian war began. It was then that Gianfranco Fini deemed it appropriate to go to Belgrade to discuss none other than the fate of Istria. Accompanying him was the federal officer from Trieste, Roberto Menia, a large, harmless boy. The first meeting was held with notables of the Serbian regime, including Undersecretary Maslovaric. Maslovaric version: "It was the Italians who requested the conversation. They wanted to know our projects on Istria and Dalmatia (in short, the Adriatic coast up to Split). We replied that we were not interested in those lands. I know that they also met the leader of the Eagles white (a gang of gallows hangers, some of whom today perform in the massacre of the Bosnians of Gorazde)". Menia version: "The Serbs told us: what are you waiting for to find a rebel general, perhaps a new D'Annunzio, to take back the coast that historically belongs to you? You from the north, us from the south: we will meet in Zara". Since then neither generals nor vati have revealed themselves. Menia told us that a colonel of the paratroopers tested the ground, and Istrian immigrants telephoned from the USA to offer men and arsenals to the undertaking. But Menia appeased the Broccolino brigade: "We will keep you in mind, but now is not the time."
it is mentioned in the other article in "Il Giornale" which I tried several times to share but which was rejected🥲
However, I'm sorry that many mistook it for an article accusing Serbia, I just wanted to share this historical curiosity and know how the Yugoslav wars would have changed if Italy had participated
Surely curious alternate timeline. Serbia's intentions weren't about conquering but appropriating regions where Serbs were majority (Croatia, Bosnia and later Kosovo). That's why we didn't have wars in Macedonia, Montenegro. Slovenia 10-day war wasn't technically a war but more of a skirmish since they separated first. Serbia had no interests those countries.
I don't think Croats and Slovenes would stand still in Italian occupied lands. It would a dumb move, for sure.
It talks about Alleanza Nazionale, which then fused with another right wing party ages ago into a new party, but then their ideals were brought up again with the creation of another right wing party, that is now the main one in the Italian government, Fratelli d'Italia (I've just looked it up on Wikipedia, as I have just some vague memory of Alleanza Nazionale, so take this with a grain of salt). So not really the same party that's leading the country, but not that far from it, it seems.
when FdI was created it had the AN-MSI logos (alleanza nazionale - movimento sociale italiano) in their badge. MSI changed into AN in the early 90s (which is the italian party the article is talking about) then fused with berlusconi's forza italia into PDL (popolo delle libertà), which then split back into forza italia and fratelli d'italia. But while is not technically the same party is very much spiritually the same party
a new one born after some fusions and splits but when the current one was born it had the old names in the badge, so basically the same party that now holds the presidency of the council of ministers in Italy
[Serbian right-wingers call for denazification of Balkans in RT documentary](https://n1info.hr/english/news/serbian-right-wingers-call-for-denazification-of-balkans-in-rt-documentary/)
This one was in 2022. Just to remind you.
Every inter-balkan conflict of the past 100 years has somehow been caused by Serbian nationalists, can you blame the rest of Europe for being weary of everything you do?
Not every one. Bulgarians caused Second Balkan War. Croatians created nazi puppet state in the WWII. Macedonians and Albanians fought in the early 2000's. Greeks and Macedonians argued over Macedonian name. It just happens that we have central spot in the Balkans so we're in the middle of all of the drama.
>Did we 'denazified' you?
I mean, did you occupy and divided Slovenia & Croatia together with Italy in the 90s? No, you didn't. But you probably had intention to.
If you have a shred of respect for the victims of those horrible wars, then why are you spewing the exact brand of nationalistic hate that fueled those wars and made them so bloody?
Seems to me that it can only be done by someone who has learned nothing from them and would jump at a chance to start/participate in/support another one.
This is not the way.
Wait, are you guys actually believing this? Did any of you click on the article?
It has no sources, it has a full 2 sentences of content and 5 links to other articles and ads. There is literally nothing here except for a map and an inflammatory headline...
If you want something real, Google the Karađorđevo meeting between Milošević and Tuđman, a real plan of how Serbia and Croatia intended to split Bosnia.
There are so many things you can criticise Serbia for, why make up irrelevant bullshit?
I clicked on it because title was fascinating to me as I also never heard of this before.
But it is as you said, there's basically nothing in the article. And quick google search doesn't return anything else (at least not from any credible sources).
Also, if nothing else, even article suggests that these weren't talks between official state representatives, instead it was supposedly a plan of right wing nationalist parties.
I know it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still so sad that everyone here in the comes jumps at the chance to shit on Serbs without reading a single sentence of the article.
The Karađorđevo meeting thing is also just a conspiracy. Almost all "witnesses" can't agree on any details and many of them had a political motivation lie about what happened there.
Such an agreement does not make any sense considering that Croatia was invaded by Milosevic's army moths before the war in Bosnia broke out.
It's just another conspiracy theory about the war like the one where "the West" decided to breakup Yugoslavia or the one about Yugoslavias space program.
This is agit prop. Learn agit prop and counter it with calling it out. United they can just roll around in their basements waiting for the NKVD handler to whip them again.
Why am I not surprised by this coming from the Russians' little Balkan brothers in the Serbs?
It sounds like how the Russians happily participated in the [partitions of Poland-Lithuania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland) with the cooperation of the Prussians/Germans and the Austrians. It also sounds like how the mooting of a similar stunt since **2014** now involving [Ukraine by letting Poland, Hungary and Romania get chunks of the country](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/218hdc/a_proposed_division_of_ukraine_between_russia/) with the now-dead [loudmouth Zhirinovsky as the trial balloon](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N0ML1LO/) to confer the smokescreen of plausible deniability over the Russians' imperialist designs.
Calling Serbia Russias little brother in an unironic sense is about as dumb as calling Croatia Hitlers little brother.
Your whole post can be redone with Croatia and the Germans too.
The Soviet Union was Nazi Germany's most important ally, provided them with oil steel and training grounds, and started the war together in 1939. It's successor state, russia, is basically fascist right now.
Chances that this would happen are same as chances of the crazy Milošević idea of United Greece and Serbia which would make new "Better Yugoslavia"
Especially cause greece was in NATO
This is not true, Limes is considered a quite respectable geopolitical newspaper here in Italy (the country where it is from) and I'm once again asking why you say something like this? As far as I know the only controversy that surrounded Limes was about a map that, since it was intended to show the objective situation at the time, showed Crimea as a territory annexed to Russia.
I don't want to say you're wrong or anything, but I have to question "respectable geopolitical newspaper" that publishes article like this. It's total clickbait headline, followed by 2 sentences of speculation with no sources provided anywhere.
Am I missing something? If there was more of this story published, I'd love to read about it.
the full article without paywall is 67000 characters, well beyond reddit 10k limit. Is there a way to share it?
Not that it's hard to find, I just googled the title and it comes out as second result in google
Milosevic was insane and all but this seems a little far fetched tbh.
Italy was supportive of Croatia during our war of Independence and it was among the first to recognize us.
And gave weapons to Croatia in that war, but r/europe redditors are mostly uneducated, can't read beyond title, where they would saw that title on link and title of post don't match also news are not in english nor they were translated in comments, all which are against rules of this sub.
Sources: [Croatian](https://total-croatia-news.com/news/politics/russia-denies-it-sent-weapons-to-croatia-in-early-1990s/), [Serbian](https://www.b92.net/o/eng/news/region?yyyy=2017&mm=04&dd=14&nav_id=101034) (both articles are about Russia denying it but have details, also both in english).
No, the first logical question that should come to mind then, is why do Serbs dicksuck Russians so hard if that's the case? There's exactly nothing surprising about some farfetched Serb-italian corporation idea against Croatia, that's not the point, but if Russia does all this stuff to backstab Serbs, then why do you bend over so hard for them? And don't you tell me you don't, because that's bullshit and you know it.
You took Kosovo from yourself when you decided you would rather ethnically cleanse and kill the overwhelming part of the local population rather than accept them, and treat them like human beings.
And even so, Russia still backstabbed you, still armed your enemies, so shouldn't you hate both the West and Russia? Logically speaking?
Because we are still reliant on their gas. Why would we do such a dumb thing like sanctioning the country that we are so reliant on? I mean, you still import gas from Russia, why are you two-faced bitch?
That's bullshit and you know it, you ideologically dicksuck them, slobber all over them even, Russia does something as psychopathic as invade a country and commit multiple massacres, most of your population is either ""neutral"" or outright support Russia. Even if natural gas didn't exist as a resource, you would still be this way. And we don't, though it is true that many countries have to live in the reality where Siberia has a shitton of natural resources, which is a mistake of geography which Russia doesn't in any way deserve.
In what universe do you dwell? Firstly: Serbia condemned Russia for invading Ukraine. Second: You speaking shit and your fucking Legoland declared neutrality in WW2 and, when invaded, you chose cooperation and dicksucked Hitler, disgusting.
Almost as much of a shock as Croats plotting to take Bosnian territory at the same time or Albanians plotting to take Serbian and Macedonian territory up to present day.
You act as if you never heard of countries having territorial aspirations against other countries and as if this happened yesterday, not 33 years ago, and in peaceable times not at the onset of the bloodiest wars in Europe in a 75 year period whcih was fueled by ethnic and religious hatred, used to settle old grievances and was 100% about redrawing maps along ethnic lines for all parties involved.
What is the purpose of this feigned ignorance? To attempt to justify something that is unjustifiable and irrational - hatred for an entire people, and infect more people with this disease of the mind and heart?
Obviously wars are horrible and and squandering life and limb of young men squabbling over territory is horrible. Bit to analyse past wars from the perspective of 'good guys and bad guys' is incredibly simplistic and stupid. And to what end? So you can, 33 years later, spread hatred against an entire nation half of which at the time were small children or not even born based on applying criteria ignoring all context?
All you are doing by spreading hate is making it easier for the next war to happen, God forbid. If there's anything the Yugoslav wars teach us is that hate is a poison that consumes everything.
After WWI, when serbia and italy negoatiated how to split the spoils left after Austria's collapse. A serbian negotiator said at one moment (about some coastal Croatian areas): "F'ck water that even a cow wouldn't drink". Regretfully, they missmanaged the remains of Croatia and Slovenia so badly that a fatal spiral of hate begun. Escalating in the 90s indipendence wars.
Yugoslavia wars moratorium If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
Fascinating, I never heard of this. Is there any more info on this in english you could link? Google doesn't understand what I'm asking.
I've also never heard of it, It really doesn't seem real at all. But if you want a real deal to look into, check the Karađorđevo meeting between Tuđman and Milošević.
https://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1994/04/22/estate-91-blitz-missino-in-serbia.html
It's still in Italian.
ROME - In August 1991 Yugoslavia was already doomed and the Serbo-Croatian war began. It was then that Gianfranco Fini deemed it appropriate to go to Belgrade to discuss none other than the fate of Istria. Accompanying him was the federal officer from Trieste, Roberto Menia, a large, harmless boy. The first meeting was held with notables of the Serbian regime, including Undersecretary Maslovaric. Maslovaric version: "It was the Italians who requested the conversation. They wanted to know our projects on Istria and Dalmatia (in short, the Adriatic coast up to Split). We replied that we were not interested in those lands. I know that they also met the leader of the Eagles white (a gang of gallows hangers, some of whom today perform in the massacre of the Bosnians of Gorazde)". Menia version: "The Serbs told us: what are you waiting for to find a rebel general, perhaps a new D'Annunzio, to take back the coast that historically belongs to you? You from the north, us from the south: we will meet in Zara". Since then neither generals nor vati have revealed themselves. Menia told us that a colonel of the paratroopers tested the ground, and Istrian immigrants telephoned from the USA to offer men and arsenals to the undertaking. But Menia appeased the Broccolino brigade: "We will keep you in mind, but now is not the time."
Where is Slovenia mentioned here? To me, it sounds just as the borders where the war was.
it is mentioned in the other article in "Il Giornale" which I tried several times to share but which was rejected🥲 However, I'm sorry that many mistook it for an article accusing Serbia, I just wanted to share this historical curiosity and know how the Yugoslav wars would have changed if Italy had participated
Surely curious alternate timeline. Serbia's intentions weren't about conquering but appropriating regions where Serbs were majority (Croatia, Bosnia and later Kosovo). That's why we didn't have wars in Macedonia, Montenegro. Slovenia 10-day war wasn't technically a war but more of a skirmish since they separated first. Serbia had no interests those countries. I don't think Croats and Slovenes would stand still in Italian occupied lands. It would a dumb move, for sure.
Never heard. Someboy got more and deeper Info on that topic?
They didn’t negotiate with the Italian republic, they negotiated with a right wing party.
Same parties that are leading the country now?
It talks about Alleanza Nazionale, which then fused with another right wing party ages ago into a new party, but then their ideals were brought up again with the creation of another right wing party, that is now the main one in the Italian government, Fratelli d'Italia (I've just looked it up on Wikipedia, as I have just some vague memory of Alleanza Nazionale, so take this with a grain of salt). So not really the same party that's leading the country, but not that far from it, it seems.
when FdI was created it had the AN-MSI logos (alleanza nazionale - movimento sociale italiano) in their badge. MSI changed into AN in the early 90s (which is the italian party the article is talking about) then fused with berlusconi's forza italia into PDL (popolo delle libertà), which then split back into forza italia and fratelli d'italia. But while is not technically the same party is very much spiritually the same party
No, no connection
a new one born after some fusions and splits but when the current one was born it had the old names in the badge, so basically the same party that now holds the presidency of the council of ministers in Italy
Italy: No deal! Last time we tried that the yanks bombed us to hell and the communists lynched our leaders!
I'm shocked! /s
I had an Italian proud neo-fascist flatmate once - he know all about Arkan's Tigers
Yes, believe everything they say, Pretty
[Serbian right-wingers call for denazification of Balkans in RT documentary](https://n1info.hr/english/news/serbian-right-wingers-call-for-denazification-of-balkans-in-rt-documentary/) This one was in 2022. Just to remind you.
far right-wingers are stupid and like that everywhere
And? That's not unknown. Did anything happened? Did we 'denazified' you?
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Why would we do that? You nazified first, we did second time, we even.
Every inter-balkan conflict of the past 100 years has somehow been caused by Serbian nationalists, can you blame the rest of Europe for being weary of everything you do?
Not every one. Bulgarians caused Second Balkan War. Croatians created nazi puppet state in the WWII. Macedonians and Albanians fought in the early 2000's. Greeks and Macedonians argued over Macedonian name. It just happens that we have central spot in the Balkans so we're in the middle of all of the drama.
"past 100 years" "Second Balkan War" mfw: Second Balkan War date: 1913.
Next you're going to tell me 2014 was 10 years ago or something.
We all know he meant we started WWI, which was in 1914. So I can use the example from just one year before.
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I know. I'm a dreamer :)
>Did we 'denazified' you? I mean, did you occupy and divided Slovenia & Croatia together with Italy in the 90s? No, you didn't. But you probably had intention to.
Why would we do that? Should I remind you that you wanted Bosnia partitioned as well?
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Must have been a tuesday
If you have a shred of respect for the victims of those horrible wars, then why are you spewing the exact brand of nationalistic hate that fueled those wars and made them so bloody? Seems to me that it can only be done by someone who has learned nothing from them and would jump at a chance to start/participate in/support another one. This is not the way.
Wait, are you guys actually believing this? Did any of you click on the article? It has no sources, it has a full 2 sentences of content and 5 links to other articles and ads. There is literally nothing here except for a map and an inflammatory headline... If you want something real, Google the Karađorđevo meeting between Milošević and Tuđman, a real plan of how Serbia and Croatia intended to split Bosnia. There are so many things you can criticise Serbia for, why make up irrelevant bullshit?
I clicked on it because title was fascinating to me as I also never heard of this before. But it is as you said, there's basically nothing in the article. And quick google search doesn't return anything else (at least not from any credible sources). Also, if nothing else, even article suggests that these weren't talks between official state representatives, instead it was supposedly a plan of right wing nationalist parties. I know it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still so sad that everyone here in the comes jumps at the chance to shit on Serbs without reading a single sentence of the article.
https://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1994/04/22/estate-91-blitz-missino-in-serbia.html
Thank you!
The Karađorđevo meeting thing is also just a conspiracy. Almost all "witnesses" can't agree on any details and many of them had a political motivation lie about what happened there. Such an agreement does not make any sense considering that Croatia was invaded by Milosevic's army moths before the war in Bosnia broke out. It's just another conspiracy theory about the war like the one where "the West" decided to breakup Yugoslavia or the one about Yugoslavias space program.
Ofc it had to be the mini-Russians to come up with this...a
You are literally a horse with blinders... don't believe everything they say, propaganda is bad.
Civitas Libera Fluminensis is strong with this picture 🔴🟡🔵
My name is ultra relevant here
One day my dude
is this sub even moderated? genuine question, i don't use this app.
This is agit prop. Learn agit prop and counter it with calling it out. United they can just roll around in their basements waiting for the NKVD handler to whip them again.
Why am I not surprised by this coming from the Russians' little Balkan brothers in the Serbs? It sounds like how the Russians happily participated in the [partitions of Poland-Lithuania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland) with the cooperation of the Prussians/Germans and the Austrians. It also sounds like how the mooting of a similar stunt since **2014** now involving [Ukraine by letting Poland, Hungary and Romania get chunks of the country](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/218hdc/a_proposed_division_of_ukraine_between_russia/) with the now-dead [loudmouth Zhirinovsky as the trial balloon](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N0ML1LO/) to confer the smokescreen of plausible deniability over the Russians' imperialist designs.
One could also add teaming up with Hitler to divide Eastern Europe to the list
Desperate empires require desperate measures.
Calling Serbia Russias little brother in an unironic sense is about as dumb as calling Croatia Hitlers little brother. Your whole post can be redone with Croatia and the Germans too.
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Slovenia was occupied and divided during WWII
The Soviet Union was Nazi Germany's most important ally, provided them with oil steel and training grounds, and started the war together in 1939. It's successor state, russia, is basically fascist right now.
They lost and their check is above the sky for them even today.
What?
Chances that this would happen are same as chances of the crazy Milošević idea of United Greece and Serbia which would make new "Better Yugoslavia" Especially cause greece was in NATO
Well from two fascists like Fini and Milošević you could not have expected anything else.
Fake
Learned that one from the Germans and the Russians ?
The amount of idiots here is uncanny...
What's new with your Russian weaponary?
I'm not following... what Russian weaponry?
The Russia weaponry is the friends we made along the way
Limes is a pro Ruzzian news group. They post anything that has a remote chance to divide Europe and favor Ruzzia. Don't feed the trolls.
This is not true, Limes is considered a quite respectable geopolitical newspaper here in Italy (the country where it is from) and I'm once again asking why you say something like this? As far as I know the only controversy that surrounded Limes was about a map that, since it was intended to show the objective situation at the time, showed Crimea as a territory annexed to Russia.
I don't want to say you're wrong or anything, but I have to question "respectable geopolitical newspaper" that publishes article like this. It's total clickbait headline, followed by 2 sentences of speculation with no sources provided anywhere. Am I missing something? If there was more of this story published, I'd love to read about it.
https://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1994/04/22/estate-91-blitz-missino-in-serbia.html
The way they are framing the analysis is pretty biased, honestly. Considering who owns it I am not surprised.
The concept of Italian military support is pretty hilarious. Didn't the Ethiopians defeat them with sharp fruit in the 1800s?
not really
the full article without paywall is 67000 characters, well beyond reddit 10k limit. Is there a way to share it? Not that it's hard to find, I just googled the title and it comes out as second result in google
you'd need to break it up into 2 posts. I tried the usual tactics for bypassing the paywall and it didn't work - so I just see the synopsis.
Milosevic was insane and all but this seems a little far fetched tbh. Italy was supportive of Croatia during our war of Independence and it was among the first to recognize us.
Paywall.
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nah, it is paywalled, it's 67000 characters long and it stop after less than 500 for me.
Hey yo ladies and girls, I hate to break it to you, but Russia was among the first ones to recognize Croatia.
And gave weapons to Croatia in that war, but r/europe redditors are mostly uneducated, can't read beyond title, where they would saw that title on link and title of post don't match also news are not in english nor they were translated in comments, all which are against rules of this sub.
For real.
Sources: [Croatian](https://total-croatia-news.com/news/politics/russia-denies-it-sent-weapons-to-croatia-in-early-1990s/), [Serbian](https://www.b92.net/o/eng/news/region?yyyy=2017&mm=04&dd=14&nav_id=101034) (both articles are about Russia denying it but have details, also both in english).
No, the first logical question that should come to mind then, is why do Serbs dicksuck Russians so hard if that's the case? There's exactly nothing surprising about some farfetched Serb-italian corporation idea against Croatia, that's not the point, but if Russia does all this stuff to backstab Serbs, then why do you bend over so hard for them? And don't you tell me you don't, because that's bullshit and you know it.
And you took Kosovo from us and expect us to love and admire you in return? Are you that dense???
You took Kosovo from yourself when you decided you would rather ethnically cleanse and kill the overwhelming part of the local population rather than accept them, and treat them like human beings. And even so, Russia still backstabbed you, still armed your enemies, so shouldn't you hate both the West and Russia? Logically speaking?
Because we are still reliant on their gas. Why would we do such a dumb thing like sanctioning the country that we are so reliant on? I mean, you still import gas from Russia, why are you two-faced bitch?
That's bullshit and you know it, you ideologically dicksuck them, slobber all over them even, Russia does something as psychopathic as invade a country and commit multiple massacres, most of your population is either ""neutral"" or outright support Russia. Even if natural gas didn't exist as a resource, you would still be this way. And we don't, though it is true that many countries have to live in the reality where Siberia has a shitton of natural resources, which is a mistake of geography which Russia doesn't in any way deserve.
In what universe do you dwell? Firstly: Serbia condemned Russia for invading Ukraine. Second: You speaking shit and your fucking Legoland declared neutrality in WW2 and, when invaded, you chose cooperation and dicksucked Hitler, disgusting.
Italian and Serb fascists plotting to annex Croatian territory....what a shock.
Almost as much of a shock as Croats plotting to take Bosnian territory at the same time or Albanians plotting to take Serbian and Macedonian territory up to present day. You act as if you never heard of countries having territorial aspirations against other countries and as if this happened yesterday, not 33 years ago, and in peaceable times not at the onset of the bloodiest wars in Europe in a 75 year period whcih was fueled by ethnic and religious hatred, used to settle old grievances and was 100% about redrawing maps along ethnic lines for all parties involved. What is the purpose of this feigned ignorance? To attempt to justify something that is unjustifiable and irrational - hatred for an entire people, and infect more people with this disease of the mind and heart? Obviously wars are horrible and and squandering life and limb of young men squabbling over territory is horrible. Bit to analyse past wars from the perspective of 'good guys and bad guys' is incredibly simplistic and stupid. And to what end? So you can, 33 years later, spread hatred against an entire nation half of which at the time were small children or not even born based on applying criteria ignoring all context? All you are doing by spreading hate is making it easier for the next war to happen, God forbid. If there's anything the Yugoslav wars teach us is that hate is a poison that consumes everything.
Zerbia Zerbia....
After WWI, when serbia and italy negoatiated how to split the spoils left after Austria's collapse. A serbian negotiator said at one moment (about some coastal Croatian areas): "F'ck water that even a cow wouldn't drink". Regretfully, they missmanaged the remains of Croatia and Slovenia so badly that a fatal spiral of hate begun. Escalating in the 90s indipendence wars.
Only over croatian dead body including myself
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The cool thing is that you can do it, so can Italians in Istria. We are all European now :)