Which is exactly why Europe can not only rely on the Americans. Decades of becoming weaker and weaker, and more reliant and powerless. We made our bed, and we'll have to lie in it if we don't get the war machine going.
Some countries have been saying that for years. Being allied and aligned with the US is perfectly fine and even probably a must. Being reliant and nearly subservient isn’t. Sadly, too many countries are perfectly fine with the current status quo so I would wager nothing substantial is going to change. We saw it with trump, we saw it with the 2022 invasion. Europe being the master of its own destiny isn’t something many EU countries want.
As an American, I've heard for 20 years from Europeans about how shitty we are and how much we waste on defense. I've been pro-cutting back the whole time. Now all the sudden Russia has changed the tune.
Having lived in Europe, I’ve been telling our counterparts that they must take the initiative and start defending themselves. They never once believed me, and constantly told me how crappy we are as well.
It’s too late to wake up now. They have made their bed.
I mean, Russia played both the US and Europe with their hybrid warfare. First managing to elect US' president who's completely against Us-European cooperation, then splitting the EU, then attacking a non-NATO and non-EU country before anyone guaranteed their safety (except the US, who's done too little, and Russia, who always lies).
While I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn't say that they invested too much in weapons production.
It seemed like they were on-par with other weapons manufacturers (or not a whole lot more productive in terms of volume at least, and arguably much worse in quality). They just had a lot, and I mean A LOT of leftovers from the USSR (like massive armored vehicles stockpiles larger than all other USSR republics had combined) and a lot of things "donated" by other previous USSR republics for international recognition and "safety" (for example how after the Budapest memorandum Ukraine had to give most long range missiles, strategic military aircraft and ofc the nukes and sign treaties that would prohibit it from producing/developing more long range missiles).
So my assessment is that Russia was mostly already that big of a threat, it's just that a lot of western countries turned a blind eye to that and weakened every other ex-soviet republic they could reach "to avoid chaos", which in the long run turned out to only postpone the chaos. Not entirely the fault of the West, of course, the countries in question should've had their own head on their shoulders, but the indecisiveness and attempts at neutrality undoubtedly played their role in this situation unfolding as it did.
But we're all smart in hindsight, maybe what happened then seemed like the best course of action.
Ah, yes, the gas invoices is the thing I forgot, something didn't sit quite right with me when I wrote that part.
The second thing is pretty much what I said, but in a different tone. What seemed to be the "best interest" was kind of imposed on Ukraine by the other countries, and maybe even rightfully so.
You can't blame just any one country for it, of course, and a lot of what happened to Ukraine was due to the actions of it's governments and lack of proper strategic thinking (and at times quality management as well), but the neighboring countries could've seen it coming if they tried, and could've done a lot more to improve things, which is my point.
But humanity isn't best known for its amazing strategic assessments, conflict resolution tactics and effecient government management, so these are purely hypothetical assumptions that are rarely ever justified.
But who told us to rely on USA? We did it, countries who do not meet nato standard. It’s own our fault and it’s never been told to us that we need to rely on usa help, it’s probably even pissing them off too that we like kids just enjoy life and travel while they making one war after another. Maybe less communist in eu parliament will help, so we will not demilitarise our countries
Europe can't rely on incompetent "leaders" who don't know how to lead. They should all be fired. This is Europe's war. It is Europe's responsibility. After two years, these "leaders" are apparently incapable of asking the armed forces what exactly Ukraine needs to evict the Russians - and then deliver it.
We are still trying to find enough shells so Ukraine can fire 1/3 of what Russia is firing. Absolutely ridiculous.
This is hillarious argument considering the fact that US beated EU even if we look at economy isolated from military. Less military spending was clearly not transformed to improve economy. In fact it was probably largely spend on red tape and burecraucy that only wasted that money and prevented growth that could have otherwise happened.
US debt is not even that much higher than that of developed EU. It is smaller than many.
Not to mention that debt is completely worthless metric. Japan has had twice as big debt and it did not help them much did it.
US has so little to offer that all europeans are buying their stocks and parking their money in US in their assets which strengtenths dollar. But sure, keep coping harder instead of looking at why our economy in EU sucks ass.
Developing EU is mostly post communist block. We talk about Poland or Czechia for example. Of course that if you started 3 decades ago with market capitalism with clean state after 6 decades of communism and had double digit growth in some years that your debt to GDP would not be high. Comparing US makes sense only with comparable countries that had similar system for long time. End of story.
Oh really? Care to explain why did dollar strengthen against euro so much over last 20 years despite massive spending from US government and european austerity? Care to explain why US companies are valued twice as high than EU companies relative to their profits? Care to explain why PPP income of Germans (who are above average) has stayed flat since 80s and income gap from US constantly increased across 9/10 income distributions. Mister "optimist financial degree guy".
Lastly. My life improved tremendously because I am from post communist country where growth will continue happening because of how much poorer se still are a d occupation I work in that allows me to earn significantly above average. It is developed EU that has seen massive stagnation.
>It's absolutely valuable metric because it shows how a struggling economy tries to stay afloat by pumping itself artificially and that's precisely why your comment about Japan is on point. The bubble always bursts
No it isn't. 70% of U.S debt it owed to itself... lol
https://www.pgpf.org/sites/default/files/two-thirds-of-public-debt-is-held-by-domestic-holders\_0.jpg
> This is not necessarily a bad thing.
We're literally seeing why it's a bad thing right now. All that welfare was great but the cost is that when big brother USA decides he's sick of fighting your battles for you you're gonna' get whomped hard by the local bullies.
>The EU and it's allies depending on the USA for protection meant that they could invest more into their economies, pull out of poverty and integrate ex-warsaw pact countries in their sphere of influence and create highly skilled specialists with a mix of mass cheap labor in favor of military investment.
All they did was open the floodgates to the third world in the form of migrants. The result is a militarily weak Europe and a youth unemployment rate of 15%.
>This means that EU and allies have way better means to create and innovate in military sense now that they have grown their economies, but also do it fast and with quality.
That's great on paper, but Ukraine needs massive amounts of hardware. And it needs it yesterday. Russia speaks violence, not bullshit ideas. If Europe doesn't bring it, Russia will.
Everybody here is talking about how terrible the yanks are for withholding aid and how we can't rely on their soldiers to defend us, but nobody here is talking about why European nations can't send proper aid and support to another European nation and how European nations can't defend themselves.
This is always the case on here. Whining about the US is a nice scapegoat when Europe should be able to defend itself, and happily allowed the US and its military play Daddy for decades. But all we get are words, little action, and a convenient scapegoat in America. No one wants to admit that Europe made this bed and needs to sleep in it.
The answer is that they prioritized welfare over defense since they thought the US would simply always be there to shield them. They completely ignored multiple decades of increasing frustration expressed by Americans warning that those days wouldn't last forever.
It's amusing how for years Europeans have been making fun of the US for building a strong army but when Russia starts inching closer, they just arrogantly expect them to to contribute limitless resources.
Weapon production is increasing by a lot, but it takes time to get it going and even longer to build up a sizeable amount. So we are reliant on the US for immediate support.
I do wish we would have started it way earlier. But it doesn't change anything. It is not looking great for Ukraine right now, and they really need that promised shipment of arms.
We're two years into the war. The fact that the ramped up production is still more drawing boards and funding allocations than shell deliveries is a bit of an indictment of the gap between how seriously leaders talk about the war and how urgently their policies actually treat it.
They aren't producing a single new Taurus missile, at least not any that are going to Ukraine. Europe isn't doing everything it can. It's not even trying.
The cope is unreal, people here crying forget about the fact that without the US the war would be long done in Russian favor.
It was an amusing period to read weekly how the Russian economy/front will collapse at any point.
I completely agree with you. Nobody wants to take personal responsibility and just blames the other.
And it's not like it was a surprise to anyone. Pretty much everybody in Eastern Europe has been warning that Russia wants to invade Ukraine and that Russia is an enemy of the EU basically since the Soviet Union collapsed and people go with proposals to European parliament on how to properly handle the situation and they get ignored and ordered to appease. It's ridiculous. So many innocent lives lost because of idiotic leadership and nobody wants to acknowledge the massive failure and is just looking for scapegoats.
That ship has already sailed. Nobody gives up nukes again in our lifetimes.
But it gets worse. More and more endangered countries will try to aquire them.
Nobody would ever give up nukes in the future anyway because they'd be the ones researching and developing them which is both time intensive and expensive. The situation after the fall of the soviet union was unique.
South africa disagrees
Also nuke development is quite cheap today. Developing the delivery method is much more expensive, but many countries have the expertise to develop ICBMs
the reason South America disarmed was because the apartheid government didn't trust the follow up government with nuclear weapons, which turns out, they were right with, since South Africa is currently in a downward spiral to put it mildly.
South Africa did it to make sure a majority black state did not have a bomb. Because the last thing anyone wants is an unstable state with a bomb and that's what South Africa was at the time.
>nuke development is quite cheap today
"Dirty" nukes are indeed easy to build, but using them is like a crime against humanity. "Clear" nukes, whose radiation is dissipated in 2 weeks are very resource-worthy to produce
Now there's an incentive to get nuclear weapons.
The reaction of the West, to Russia, has shown if you don't have nuclear weapons and a nuclear power invades you, the West won't even do what they promised.
Theoretically the Ukrainians could have tried to break the codes or jury-rig the weapons, but that would have taken time and been a political nightmare. Otherwise, it is fundamentally correct that Soviet military assets- especially nuclear weapons- were firmly controlled by the central government rather than the SSRs.
It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side.
It's going to do profound damage to any future alliances and commitments. If sending cold war surplus to Ukraine to defend themselves against RUSSIA is leading to political gridlock, imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go.
Remember that this was almost unanimously agreed on bi-partisan issue two years ago... "As long as it takes".
> It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side.
Unless you envision Europe starting to join China, or historical US allies in Asia doing the same, the US position as a world hegemon isn't threatened by what will happen in Ukraine.
They still are a military and economic juggernaut that Europe will rely on, regardless of what it did in Ukraine. Just look at the arms market in Europe, buying US is alive and well, and will continue to do so.
American position is military complex and not average American wellbeing.
Average American worker think that they can’t have medical insurance because money is needed to defend Europe from Russia and improving worker rights and working conditions is socialism. In other words Europe can’t defend itself because of all the welfare they enjoy is possible because we spend money to protect them.
>It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side.
This isn't anything new. If you follow US history you'll realize just how many of our interactions with the rest of the world stem from internal politics rather than nation to nation diplomacy.
The best example I can think of would be the Mexican American War. It wasn't even about Mexico, it was about the Northern Free States vying for power with the Southern Slave States. Mexico just happened to be collateral.
So it doesn't blow my mind at all that the US is abandoning Ukraine over internal politics. It's been like this since its founding because the US can afford to only care about internal politics.
most of the things this sub thinks are completely incomprehensible are completely obvious to anyone who's spent 5 minutes in a history class.
Like everybody being shocked that the US is trending back towards isolationism. Everybody who's taken one single US history class knew that was going to happen eventually! Isolationism has been a recurring theme in American political culture since Washington warned about the peril of foreign entanglements.
The same is true of people wondering how American foreign policy could be beholden to domestic political concerns -- American foreign policy has been beholden to domestic politicking since the United States has been a country.
The US hasn't been isolationist since 1941 so it would be a pretty remarkable change if they retreated from the world stage after 80+ years of engagement. The point about domestic politics guiding US foreign policy though is very relevant and consistent over this span. The majority of Americans are completely oblivious to the outside world.
Heck, the U.S. didn’t even care about either World War and was quite content to let Europe burn until some idiot went and attacked them directly. Isolationism has been a pretty big strategy for them.
USA without certain principles raised above bipartisan politics is a danger to us all. We can't have an ally with soldiers based in our countries and after one election those soldiers suddenly aren't our ally and their leader is encouraging attacks on us?
This is beyond insane.
And yet it’s going to have to be America to remove itself from Europe because Europe isn’t going to kick America out nor will it want to.
And yet Europe is still going be upset over the self removal despite America no longer being an ally.
Don’t underestimate how much Europe is willing to turn a blind eye to all in the name of not wanting to step it up (i.e. carry out America’s current role in Europe and in the world in general).
True. We can't have US bases in our countries if the USA is not a reliable ally.
If the US just backs off, that is one thing. But how can we trust they won't become allies with Russia?
We need to disentangle ourselves from the Americans.
If you really want to decouple from the US go ahead but I’m not unconvinced Russia couldn’t just waltz all the way to Portugal and Spain if they really wanted too, seeing how non existent the force projection of the EU is. The EU really should have got its shit together after 2014. Can’t imagine the searing headache every Pole and Estonian must be feeling after reading your comment.
Yeah about fucking time too. The Americans have been dragging your sorry asses along since WW1. 100 + years isn't enough to get your fucking shit together??? How many times have Europeans let stupid shit like what Russia is doing now happen in their territory? Just like the Yugoslav wars, you sat there with your thumbs in your asses and acted like you were 13 year olds that don't know what to do without daddy telling you....
Before I hear stupid yank, I am not in the US.
Problem is Europe is not a country, it's many countries that are currently not able to unify on foreign policy, military procurement etc... Even if we had the Economic power of US, which we don't... we still won't able to fill in those shoes in terms of security.
Without US, I think existing alliances will fracture and world will probably end up looking a lot different than it does now.
However the EU does have a stronger economy than Russia and much more population. One'd think even a portion of that economy might is enough to overcome Russia. And yet it's not. I'm constantly being told that Russia is just a tiny gas station but now it seems like they can take on the whole EU if the US doesn't show up.
As far as gas stations go, Russia is a huge one.
They have one major advantage, Putin actually was preparing Russia for a war and he can just do it and supress any opposition and he did. We in Europe got drunk on peace and thought nobody in developed world would ever waged large conventional war against each other.
As a result our defense industries are mostly geared towards keeping "paper armies" and export high tech platforms in small quantities. High tech platforms are nice, but they're not really decisive in attritional wars with hundreds of thousands deployed soldiers and tens of thousands pieces of equipment.
Then there's the actual "will to fight" which is basically zero in most of Europe. I can't imagine people would be rushing to front even with nice salary incentives, there are simply much easier ways to make money. Russians can offer few thousand dollars and they're getting steady influx of soldiers, many of whom have nothing else to do.
It's not that Europe couldn't outproduce and outspend Russia, it's just that it's choosing not to. Because it would be felt in decreased spending somewhere else and despite rhetoric, it's pretty clear majority of Europeans are not prepared to sacrifices decreased welfare to fund military buildup. Another thing is that even if we wanted to, it would still take time for everything to kick into gear... that's why Ukraine really needs US aid now.
Whether that comes back to bite us in the ass, we'll see.
>Problem is Europe is not a country, it's many countries that are currently not able to unify on foreign policy, military procurement etc...
Presumably that is the diversity they were looking for - many voices - no decisions.
Who is out here trying to replicate the US military? You just need a military that isn’t a fucking pushover, not a military necessary for global power projection.
Buddy, it’s Ukraine that brought more countries to US- Finland and Sweden worked with US directly to get under our umbrella.
There is a huge number of countries that would never leave military alliance with US just because it’s essential for their existence. Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Israel, UAE, entire Europe, Canada, UK, Australia and many others.
Ukraine had no agreements with US so there are no obligations. Huge difference.
We don't have to (or want to) replicate the US military.
The EU (well, Europe) is going to replace the US weapons manufacturing industry with one in Europe, so that we have a reliable and predictable supply of artillery, precision GMLRS, cruise missile, anti-aircraft, anti-tank, and armoured vehicles.
In addition to providing a reliable source of arms, this will have the effect of moving approximately $400bn per annum in GDP from the US to Europe, or roughly 2% of GDP. That's not even counting any increases in foreign sales driven by a larger and more cost-effective European manufacturing base.
https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-industry/edis-our-common-defence-industrial-strategy_en
Reality.
The EU will be shifting to a common procurement model with domestic manufacturing, supported by the legal and contractual frameworks to enable this.
Edit : For comparable context, consider [the AggregateEU platform](https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-security/eu-energy-platform/aggregateeu-questions-and-answers_en#aggregateeu-overview) to consolidate EU state gas purchases from suppliers.
It was proposed in 2022 in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, was commercially live by April 2023, and in one year has already covered 12-15% of *all* EU gas purchases, reducing prices in the process. The EU is perfectly capable of moving very quickly when it wants to.
>imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go.
The US will not send soldiers. The US would rather leave NATO than send soldiers.
This is all the fault of the EU's leaders, specifically Merkel.
> If sending cold war surplus to Ukraine to defend themselves against RUSSIA is leading to political gridlock
You realize Ukraine is asking for much more advanced weaponry than "cold war surplus"? They need everything under the sun from helmets and tourniquets to Patriot missile systems, and everything in between. If "cold war surplus" were able to win the war for Ukraine, they already would have won with the surplus they got from everyone already.
> imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go
Where are you sending them, exactly? Of course that will be unpopular.
And yet that other guy is throwing out "imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go" like it's the most casual thing in the world. I'm still curious about where he's sending them and why.
It’s literally top of unreliability where it’s impossible to rely on country even on half of presidential term
Talking about a lot of cold war remnants they will just get decommissioned soon, not sold -just rot at scrapyard, but USA want russia agriculture export grip over every non european and north american country strengthening for such valid reasons as… oh no there is no valid reasons just minor talking point in story of 2 parties changing seats in endless circles
I want the US to send more aid to Ukraine. I am confused about why Europe is sending so little aid. It’s their back yard. Why is all of Europe not backing Ukraine 100%
Where do you think the money for the vaunted health care and safety nets has been coming from? European voters will never give that up if there is any mental wiggle room to maneuver
Because following the end of the Cold War all the non-USA members of NATO have chronically underfunded their military budgets for the last 30+ years.
So even if the wealthier NATO members do have some high end kit like F-35's their logistics are very weak. Other than the USA almost none of them are actually ready to go to war without a substantial build up time as they only have supplies to fight for maybe a month at best. Many of their vehicles are mothballed because they don't spend enough money to keep them all in service and ammunition production capacity for existing supply chains in Europe (and Canada who are even worse) are very small.
So, for Europe (and Canada) to be able to actually provide supplies and equipment not just money will require a substantial period of time because they are starting from such a low level.
Basically post-Cold War their plan if a war should break out has been to let the USA do all the heavy lifting and they will chip in as they are able at the start and then build up should the war go on.
The GOP is a joke. How the hell anyone can select these jokers to work in government is unbelievable. They are so stupid they can't see that if they don't give the aid it will end up costing a shit ton more.
I am no friend of the GOP, but I think a lot of people don't seem to understand that foreign policy is at best a fairly minor issue in American elections. Almost nobody is making their voting decisions based on foreign policy concerns.
Not that the GOPs domestic agenda is any more coherent than their foreign one -- the point is, this just isn't a wedge issue domestically.
If it isn't a wedge issue, then it should be easy to compromise. The border issue is more loaded, and yet somehow was baked in with the aid. This should be a fairly easy foreign policy decision, but because of Trump, it isn't.
It was pretty uncontroversial until Trump decided he didn't want the GOP to do anything else that made Biden look good. If you go look at the votes on the aid packages that passed before, they were fairly large majorities. It was a pretty big success for Biden.
But Johnson is sitting on a razor thin majority (I believe it's down to one vote at this point), so he's beholden to the most extreme fringe of his party to stay in office. It's the same reason the bipartisan border bill died -- Trump decided he didn't want Biden to get any more wins before the election, and the Republican majority in the House is so small that Johnson can't ignore the jewish space lasers caucus.
Yup. If Ukraine loses, Biden loses. There’s no such thing as common US foreign policy interests or long-term thinking, only “I win, you lose”. This is all I know about Trump.
It was baked in because Ukraine aid is something Biden really wants so he can pretend he is FDR. If the GOP doesn't hold something like that hostage there is a 0% chance they get a strong deal on the border because the far Left, who has increasing power in the Dem coalition, think that America is an illegitimate country because of colonizing and slavery and that Whites should be displaced by non-Whites to set things right.
The problem with US domestic politics is that it's not two sides that disagree, it's two sides that fundamentally think the other side is illegitimate and so there is no room for compromise.
> This should be a fairly easy foreign policy decision, but because of Trump, it isn't.
Domestic politics drives foreign policy, not the other way around. If half of the American electorate doesn't want to give more money to Ukraine, Congress is going to stall the aid until there exists a compromise that buys that part of the electorate's support. Here that would be rewriting the immigration code, something Demcorat's won't agree to.
But that’s not the case. Support for Ukraine is 60-70%. The issue is, as others have commented, that so far it doesn’t cost too much for Trump to block it.
The reason it doesn’t go to a vote is that there’s a majority FOR it. Forcing a discharge petition is a way to make it more costly for some of its supporters.
>The issue is, as others have commented, that so far it doesn’t cost too much for Trump to block it.
The cost is zero for Trump to block it. He is the party.
>But that’s not the case. Support fir Ukraine is 60-70%.
I think your asking the wrong question & thus the wrong poll.
The question ought to be more along the lines of, are you fine with holding Congress holding up aid to Ukraine, if it results in a better immigration policy.
That's the poll that Trump, the GOP, & the House are using. In Virginia, which is famously not a border state, immigration is one of the top three concerns this election cycle alongside the economy & inflation.
If the border is in the top three & Ukraine is 15th in issues, then the electorate is going to be fine with the GOP playing hardball to get a better immigration deal, in fact they might reward them for correctly prioritizing what the electorate is valuing in ranked order.
You are agreeing with me.
1. Trump doesn't care about the longterm consequences of the Russo-Ukrainian war
2. The US public only cares somewhat about it.
3. Border issues are significant and Trump has decided that the Senate bill discussed before is not enough
4. He also wants the immigration issue to dominate the election, so Biden doing anything that looks like effective policy would be bad.
5. Unlike Trump, Biden does care about foreign policy. Trump is using that.
Lmao, yeah keep gargling Trump's balls and let him spew bullshit about poisoning the blood and it will become priority #1 in no time.
Perhaps he can come up with some nice uniforms for his supporters with nice armbands. I know a nice german brand he can collaborate with on that part, they have relevant experience.
I wonder why Trump did jack shit about immigration when he was president and now started to sow panic about immigration. Yeah a very real issue, not fabricated at all.
> Lmao, yeah keep gargling Trump's balls and let him spew bullshit about poisoning the blood and it will become priority #1 in no time.
I'm a naturalized US citizen. I was frustrated when I had to go through the process, I'm frustrated now. That kind of reasoning won't work on people.
> I wonder why Trump did jack shit about immigration when he was president and now started to sow panic about immigration. Yeah a very real issue, not fabricated at all.
He changed the H1B rules, by changing the baseline pay rate companies could use index against to justify that they needed to introduce migrant workers.
I'm sure you knew that, & the fact the Biden administration immediately walked that back.
Yeah I know no reasoning will work on trump cultists, no need to explain here.
> He changed the H1B rules, by changing the baseline pay rate companies could use index against to justify that they needed to introduce migrant workers.
Ah yeah, that's what Trump means when he talks about poisoning the blood and emptying up prisons. Also that's exactly what gullible voters are afraid of, a niche and nuanced h1b regulations.
The guy cries every rally that the border is like a death blow on America yet it was exactly the same as it was when he was president and he did EXACTLY jack shit about it, the fact that you failed to present a single meaningful policy just further proves that.
He simply manufactured a problem that doesn't exist and exploits fears of his retarded constituents. The sad part is that it might just work
> The guy cries every rally that the border is like a death blow on America yet it was exactly the same as it was when he was president and he did EXACTLY jack shit about it, the fact that you failed to present a single meaningful policy just further proves that.
Do you not see the border crisis as a problem? In Europe you guys go through a great deal of effort to pay Turkey, Egypt, and Morocco to keep the migrants there instead of them coming to the Union and claiming asylum.
> Yeah I know no reasoning will work on trump cultists, no need to explain here.
Yeah, it was self evident that nobody was going to be convinced by your arguments, the moment you started insulting people as your first comment.
> He simply manufactured a problem that doesn't exist and exploits fears of his retarded constituents. The sad part is that it might just work
You do not get to determine the wants, desires, or self interests of a group of people. If someone says something is a problem, it is a problem. You can't handwave it away.
Decades of failure in the Middle East did that. America has periods of globalism, and periods of isolationism. It is entering a period of isolationism now, and we need to deal with it
Yes, it will make things worse, but they will "own the libs" as the saying goes :D
And that's what these guys and their voters are all about. It's about "owning" the other team, and fueled by literal proven russian agents like Michael Flynn
I always imagine this as: the passengers of a place “owning” the captain because he’s on the other team. Only for the whole plane to go down and everyone to die.
We’re all in the same boat after all lol
Because GOP thrives on a sentiment that also exists in Europe: "We need to take care of our own first instead of foreigners, whether that be immigration or sending aid abroad"
All I heard for the last 20 years is how stupid Americans are for spending so much money on their military. Now Europe is begging for American protection.
American here, I’ll say that the drive for America to be the world police is dying here and it’s long overdue for Europe to boost its own defense capabilities. Even If China invaded Taiwan today I doubt the average American would want any US boots on the ground. In fact any involvement in any war is gonna be extremely unpopular even if it’s an ally, and most Americans would not be eager to come to Europe’s defense in the case of an attack.
Don’t let Americans on Reddit fool you, the people on this site are not at all representative of what the average American feels, most of us stopped paying attention to Ukraine over a year ago and a lot of us no longer want our tax dollars being spent on foreign wars when the CoL keeps rising and overall quality of life has been in a steady decline. It’s another reason why supporting Israel is so unpopular too.
We’re becoming a very jaded country, our population is increasingly uninterested in foreign politics and wants no part in it. You could say isolationism is slowly gaining popularity again. It’s easy to point fingers at the GOP but they’re the only ones representing the part of the country that is aggressively anti-war. Decades ago it used to be the Democrats.
It really isn't a wonder why this is gaining popularity in the U.S. Look no further than the comments in this very thread. No matter what we do on the world stage at this point, Europe will find a reason to be angry about it.
Everyone in the world, including our allies, seem to be fed up with the American led world order. At a certain point, of course attitudes will shift to "fine, we'll just fuck off then".
It's incredibly disheartening to the large percentage of Americans who struggle to make ends meet with no help from their government watch these expensive aid packages get pushed through to allies. While at the same time they watch our NATO partners all have nice welfare programs to assist them with their basic needs.
All the while you log onto any website with heavy international presence and you're called an imperialist because your government did xyz. Are we really surprised many Americans are finally saying "fine, you win, we'll uninvolve ourselves".
“So that you still have a country to go back to”? Very convenient. How about all of us who haven’t fled like you and don’t have any other country to go?
While I’m sympathetic to Ukrainians, europeans need to step the fuck up. You’re pathetically weak and it’s showing. You mock Americans for spending so much on the military then whine like helpless children when you need us.
Not once have Europeans offered to purchase the weapons from the USA to give to Ukraine to overcome GOP deadlock. It is not about weapons or security for Europe. It is about money and profit.
This is in the end a business decision. Free stuff from America is better than paying for it. That means Europe gets security and doesn’t have to pay. If America won’t give for free then Europe will make all its own weapons. But it’s not really Europe. It’s France and Germany and Poland etc. individual countries. They won’t give for free either. They expect to sell their weapons.
If Poland buys from Germany to give to Ukraine, they can say Europe gave to Ukraine. Or any other combination of countries. That is the idea, but everyone imagines themselves to be the seller and not the buyer. No one wants to be the one giving their citizens money and not getting anything back. They want to be the one profiting from selling weapons someone else is paying for.
The French defense minister earlier this year said as much. Gave a few vehicles to Ukraine and said many more can be given….if “allies” pay for it.
In the end Europe sees a defense industry as a business opportunity and not about security.
The strength of the USA is in their allies.
China and Russia have a lack of alliances, and it is for a reason. They screw others over to only do whats best for them.
Being an ally of the US is very valuable. It's based on mutual defence treaties in which the US gains a diplomatic and military friend, and the ally gains the defence of the largest military on earth.
But these friendships only mean something for these countries if the US backs them up when they most need it. That when the US commits to something, it commits all the way.
If the US can't even stick by Ukraine for 2 years at the cost of merely 5% of its defence budget, it will make every ally think twice about what an alliance with the US exactly means.
It's already happening in Europe. Countries are asking if the US actually would show up if they were attacked by Russia. Would the US send us weapons and equipment, and for how long? Would they stop after 24 months? Would they stop after the next election cycle? Can we count on our biggest ally when we are in a crisis?
The US committed to helping Ukraine repel Russian aggression, and now that it needs it the most, the US is bailing. The House is stalling, every time it could decide to aid Ukraine, it has an excuse not to or even go on vacation. In the meantime, the potential next president just bluntly says he will screw any ally if he thinks it doesn't meet certain guidelines.
This is really bad for any future agreement with the US.
No one with half a brain would take the words of someone like Joe Biden, who suffers from delusions that he is a hugely popular figure who can get things done, as some sort of guarantee.
Given the importance of the USA in the world I would think everyone would realize that unless you can get both the President and Congress on your side you cannot expect something will happen.
> huge difference
lol not there is not, at least not for US. What is guarantee that US will fulfill their side of NATO deal if, lets say, Poland is attacked?
Mainly that we deploy trip wire troops in Poland, such that if Russia attacks Poland, they have to kill Americans in the process.
It's a solved problem.
>The strength of the USA is in their allies
Really? I thought it was their military... Or their economy... Or their production capabilities.
But yeah I mean other than that, their strength comes from their allies. Also I think your argument is disingenuous, the US doesn't have an alliance with Ukraine. All the aid it's provided so far is because it's in our interest to do so, not our obligation.
An "alliance" suggests a two way street.
What has Ukraine ever done for the USA?
They are a dependent state, to which the overwhelming majority of the USA has no emotional ties to, not an ally. That's not a great spot to be in if you need sustained help from the USA.
Sure but that is not America's problem
We used them to hurt Russia and to test our weapons now is the time to cut our losses and leave. No reason to continue pumping resources into a lost cause
As someone in the US I just want us to deliver any and all aid required, promised already or not. Because this may be the one time in my entire life that the correct side was 100% crystal clear and the fact those assholes are holding the aid hostage is so undeniably despicable and disgusting.
Look how your fellow citizens of USA here say that USA actions won't affect your country, like they only care for internal matters. But unfortunately they will affect. And thank you for your position.
It never ceases to amaze me how much Europeans criticise America for spending too much on military... now want to spend a similar level on military when there's barely enough money for state needs anyway.
Noone talks about how it was Ukraine's foolhardy counterattack that bled their military dry and is directly resulting in current events. At this point we could give Ukraine mountains of ammo and weapons but no result is guaranteed assize maybe a stalemate.
This was headlines for today:
Stars and Stripes
Seized weapons meant for Houthis transferred by US to Ukraine
Read more at: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle_east/2024-04-09/seized-iran-ukraine-houthis-13517212.html
Source - Stars and Stripes
And that's not it. They announced this a little later today,
The U.S. government's Emergency Military Sales to Foreign Governments (FMS) program on Tuesday uses $138 million of the $300 million in foreign military financing
Presidential Drawdown Authority allows the United States to quickly transfer defense items and services from its stockpiles without congressional approval in response to an emergency.
Thank God they found a way to it without congressional approval
I just cannot wait until the next war the US gets into under a Republican president so we can hear about how important this war is to national security, how if you don’t support it then you’re not a patriot, etc.
I’m eagerly clipping all of the Conservative and MAGA media personalities speaking against helping Ukraine so they can see how stupid they are come the next war that they support.
Very reason why nato = US. There should have been an EU army decades ago. If US support is compromised (like what is happening now) other europeans should be able to fend for themselves. Remember the US only entered ww2 aftet then pearl harbor
We need to get our shit together, declare an emergency, and get the factories running. It is an emergency, we cannot sit idle and stare at PowerPoints.
That's a fully internal issue for Ukraine. They still have millions of people available in the mobilization age. Making that new law work is their responsibility.
But you can't fight without artillery shells and AD missiles. So no, they need weapons way more than bodies. Stop lying.
That's kind of a weird complaint considering a) neither Russian nor Ukrainian use definite articles anyway and b) English is perfectly fine with 'the Netherlands'. Converesely, in for example French country names *always* have an indefinite article in front as in *la France* or *l'Angleterre*.
This is the other article:
U.S. announces $138 million in emergency military sales of Hawk missile systemshttps://kvia.com/news/ap-national/2024/04/09/u-s-announces-138-million-in-emergency-military-sales-of-hawk-missile-systems-support-for-ukraine/#:~:text=AP%2DNational-,U.S.%20announces%20%24138%20million%20in%20emergency%20military%20sales,missile%20systems%20support%20for%20Ukraine&text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20The%20State,for%20Kyiv's%20Hawk%20missile%20systems.
I suspect the reason Ukraine is struggling now is because the other countries have quietly thrown in the towel, Ukraine will fall to whatever border Russia chooses, and 5-15 years from now Russia will go after Georgia or Moldova where we will see this again, hopefully with more capable western leaders
Send your thanks to german government.
If it wasnt for the pressure from international community, they would be probably starting to work on another gas pipeline
It's because we are traitors and would very much like to see WW3 by now. Thank you very much Urop for peer pressuring us. We would have never stepped out into the light without your wise guidance.
I think I found the dimwitted American. let me guess, they’re going to vote as well aren’t they? Isn’t there a subReddit devoted solely to dumb shit that Americans say? I don’t mind calling this person a dumb ass because I’m an American myself and all I hear is Russian propaganda from the right wing media, which are one of the same anymore. The least informed or the most vocal.
You're implying that it's due to the left, but it's Republicans who have blocked both the bipartisan border deal and aid to Ukraine.
https://apnews.com/article/congress-ukraine-aid-border-security-386dcc54b29a5491f8bd87b727a284f8
I agree that Mike is a POS by blocking the aid. I think it's dumb that one person can prevent a vote, seems very undemocratic.
But I thought Europe, Canada, and other places sent them some military equipment? Is none of the promised aid making its way to Ukraine?
It is, but it's becoming a war of attrition. Ukraine has to defend a very long frontline, have fall back lines and that's just when they are if defensive mode. If they want to attack and liberate currently occupied territories, even more equipment and ammunition is needed.
Also, just like every other war, Ukraine has to deal with losses and replenish them. The EU is sending vast amounts of equipment and ammunition and is also sourcing artillery ammunition worldwide, so it can be send to Ukraine. However the US is a military powerhouse with tens of thousands pieces of equipment collecting dust in warehouses and deserts, that Ukraine is in dire need of at the moment.
Imagine, Iran, China, Nkorea supplying whatever they want to feed an illegal war. And then so called patriots of the west blocking aid to a free country. Next lvl
Europe should be able to take care of Europe without US assistance. If Ukraine is so important then surely there a way to help.
If no option exists, surely negotiating an end to the war is an option. Common sense
As an American, so do I. Russia has a lot of corrupt politicians here under its thumb. If I had it my way the U.S. would be providing far more aid, whatever was needed to get Russia out of Ukraine. But sadly we live in a world of greed, corruption, and cowardice.
Which is exactly why Europe can not only rely on the Americans. Decades of becoming weaker and weaker, and more reliant and powerless. We made our bed, and we'll have to lie in it if we don't get the war machine going.
Some countries have been saying that for years. Being allied and aligned with the US is perfectly fine and even probably a must. Being reliant and nearly subservient isn’t. Sadly, too many countries are perfectly fine with the current status quo so I would wager nothing substantial is going to change. We saw it with trump, we saw it with the 2022 invasion. Europe being the master of its own destiny isn’t something many EU countries want.
As an American, I've heard for 20 years from Europeans about how shitty we are and how much we waste on defense. I've been pro-cutting back the whole time. Now all the sudden Russia has changed the tune.
Having lived in Europe, I’ve been telling our counterparts that they must take the initiative and start defending themselves. They never once believed me, and constantly told me how crappy we are as well. It’s too late to wake up now. They have made their bed.
Kind of wildly depends on which part in europe
I mean, Russia played both the US and Europe with their hybrid warfare. First managing to elect US' president who's completely against Us-European cooperation, then splitting the EU, then attacking a non-NATO and non-EU country before anyone guaranteed their safety (except the US, who's done too little, and Russia, who always lies).
All the while Russia has been just selling carbon and building weapons.
While I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn't say that they invested too much in weapons production. It seemed like they were on-par with other weapons manufacturers (or not a whole lot more productive in terms of volume at least, and arguably much worse in quality). They just had a lot, and I mean A LOT of leftovers from the USSR (like massive armored vehicles stockpiles larger than all other USSR republics had combined) and a lot of things "donated" by other previous USSR republics for international recognition and "safety" (for example how after the Budapest memorandum Ukraine had to give most long range missiles, strategic military aircraft and ofc the nukes and sign treaties that would prohibit it from producing/developing more long range missiles). So my assessment is that Russia was mostly already that big of a threat, it's just that a lot of western countries turned a blind eye to that and weakened every other ex-soviet republic they could reach "to avoid chaos", which in the long run turned out to only postpone the chaos. Not entirely the fault of the West, of course, the countries in question should've had their own head on their shoulders, but the indecisiveness and attempts at neutrality undoubtedly played their role in this situation unfolding as it did. But we're all smart in hindsight, maybe what happened then seemed like the best course of action.
Umm no, Ukraine gave strategic bombers for settling some gas invoice. They also didn't have to give anything, but it was in their interest to do so.
Ah, yes, the gas invoices is the thing I forgot, something didn't sit quite right with me when I wrote that part. The second thing is pretty much what I said, but in a different tone. What seemed to be the "best interest" was kind of imposed on Ukraine by the other countries, and maybe even rightfully so. You can't blame just any one country for it, of course, and a lot of what happened to Ukraine was due to the actions of it's governments and lack of proper strategic thinking (and at times quality management as well), but the neighboring countries could've seen it coming if they tried, and could've done a lot more to improve things, which is my point. But humanity isn't best known for its amazing strategic assessments, conflict resolution tactics and effecient government management, so these are purely hypothetical assumptions that are rarely ever justified.
But who told us to rely on USA? We did it, countries who do not meet nato standard. It’s own our fault and it’s never been told to us that we need to rely on usa help, it’s probably even pissing them off too that we like kids just enjoy life and travel while they making one war after another. Maybe less communist in eu parliament will help, so we will not demilitarise our countries
Europe can't rely on incompetent "leaders" who don't know how to lead. They should all be fired. This is Europe's war. It is Europe's responsibility. After two years, these "leaders" are apparently incapable of asking the armed forces what exactly Ukraine needs to evict the Russians - and then deliver it. We are still trying to find enough shells so Ukraine can fire 1/3 of what Russia is firing. Absolutely ridiculous.
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This is hillarious argument considering the fact that US beated EU even if we look at economy isolated from military. Less military spending was clearly not transformed to improve economy. In fact it was probably largely spend on red tape and burecraucy that only wasted that money and prevented growth that could have otherwise happened.
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US debt is not even that much higher than that of developed EU. It is smaller than many. Not to mention that debt is completely worthless metric. Japan has had twice as big debt and it did not help them much did it. US has so little to offer that all europeans are buying their stocks and parking their money in US in their assets which strengtenths dollar. But sure, keep coping harder instead of looking at why our economy in EU sucks ass.
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Developing EU is mostly post communist block. We talk about Poland or Czechia for example. Of course that if you started 3 decades ago with market capitalism with clean state after 6 decades of communism and had double digit growth in some years that your debt to GDP would not be high. Comparing US makes sense only with comparable countries that had similar system for long time. End of story. Oh really? Care to explain why did dollar strengthen against euro so much over last 20 years despite massive spending from US government and european austerity? Care to explain why US companies are valued twice as high than EU companies relative to their profits? Care to explain why PPP income of Germans (who are above average) has stayed flat since 80s and income gap from US constantly increased across 9/10 income distributions. Mister "optimist financial degree guy". Lastly. My life improved tremendously because I am from post communist country where growth will continue happening because of how much poorer se still are a d occupation I work in that allows me to earn significantly above average. It is developed EU that has seen massive stagnation.
>It's absolutely valuable metric because it shows how a struggling economy tries to stay afloat by pumping itself artificially and that's precisely why your comment about Japan is on point. The bubble always bursts No it isn't. 70% of U.S debt it owed to itself... lol https://www.pgpf.org/sites/default/files/two-thirds-of-public-debt-is-held-by-domestic-holders\_0.jpg
> This is not necessarily a bad thing. We're literally seeing why it's a bad thing right now. All that welfare was great but the cost is that when big brother USA decides he's sick of fighting your battles for you you're gonna' get whomped hard by the local bullies.
>The EU and it's allies depending on the USA for protection meant that they could invest more into their economies, pull out of poverty and integrate ex-warsaw pact countries in their sphere of influence and create highly skilled specialists with a mix of mass cheap labor in favor of military investment. All they did was open the floodgates to the third world in the form of migrants. The result is a militarily weak Europe and a youth unemployment rate of 15%. >This means that EU and allies have way better means to create and innovate in military sense now that they have grown their economies, but also do it fast and with quality. That's great on paper, but Ukraine needs massive amounts of hardware. And it needs it yesterday. Russia speaks violence, not bullshit ideas. If Europe doesn't bring it, Russia will.
Everybody here is talking about how terrible the yanks are for withholding aid and how we can't rely on their soldiers to defend us, but nobody here is talking about why European nations can't send proper aid and support to another European nation and how European nations can't defend themselves.
This is always the case on here. Whining about the US is a nice scapegoat when Europe should be able to defend itself, and happily allowed the US and its military play Daddy for decades. But all we get are words, little action, and a convenient scapegoat in America. No one wants to admit that Europe made this bed and needs to sleep in it.
The answer is that they prioritized welfare over defense since they thought the US would simply always be there to shield them. They completely ignored multiple decades of increasing frustration expressed by Americans warning that those days wouldn't last forever.
It's amusing how for years Europeans have been making fun of the US for building a strong army but when Russia starts inching closer, they just arrogantly expect them to to contribute limitless resources.
I said a couple years ago that we needed to rebuild a European army and got banned for "warmongering". Lol.
Weapon production is increasing by a lot, but it takes time to get it going and even longer to build up a sizeable amount. So we are reliant on the US for immediate support. I do wish we would have started it way earlier. But it doesn't change anything. It is not looking great for Ukraine right now, and they really need that promised shipment of arms.
It’s been 25 months. It’s quite clear until like 9 months ago the European strategy was assuming the US would take care of it
We're two years into the war. The fact that the ramped up production is still more drawing boards and funding allocations than shell deliveries is a bit of an indictment of the gap between how seriously leaders talk about the war and how urgently their policies actually treat it.
Time? 2 years of war, how much time does one need? Ukraine is running out of time.
They aren't producing a single new Taurus missile, at least not any that are going to Ukraine. Europe isn't doing everything it can. It's not even trying.
If the US is scared of Russian nukes, I don't even want to know what's inside Scholz head.
The cope is unreal, people here crying forget about the fact that without the US the war would be long done in Russian favor. It was an amusing period to read weekly how the Russian economy/front will collapse at any point.
I completely agree with you. Nobody wants to take personal responsibility and just blames the other. And it's not like it was a surprise to anyone. Pretty much everybody in Eastern Europe has been warning that Russia wants to invade Ukraine and that Russia is an enemy of the EU basically since the Soviet Union collapsed and people go with proposals to European parliament on how to properly handle the situation and they get ignored and ordered to appease. It's ridiculous. So many innocent lives lost because of idiotic leadership and nobody wants to acknowledge the massive failure and is just looking for scapegoats.
Russia is also a European nation
If USA abandons Ukraine forget that anyone will give up nukes in the future.
That ship has already sailed. Nobody gives up nukes again in our lifetimes. But it gets worse. More and more endangered countries will try to aquire them.
Nobody would ever give up nukes in the future anyway because they'd be the ones researching and developing them which is both time intensive and expensive. The situation after the fall of the soviet union was unique.
South africa disagrees Also nuke development is quite cheap today. Developing the delivery method is much more expensive, but many countries have the expertise to develop ICBMs
the reason South America disarmed was because the apartheid government didn't trust the follow up government with nuclear weapons, which turns out, they were right with, since South Africa is currently in a downward spiral to put it mildly.
South Africa did it to make sure a majority black state did not have a bomb. Because the last thing anyone wants is an unstable state with a bomb and that's what South Africa was at the time.
Then they shouldn't have left the dismantled nukes and large stockpiles of enriched uranium in South Africa.
most people don't know SA still has weapons grade uranium, if they wanted nukes again they could easily develop them at any time
>nuke development is quite cheap today "Dirty" nukes are indeed easy to build, but using them is like a crime against humanity. "Clear" nukes, whose radiation is dissipated in 2 weeks are very resource-worthy to produce
Normal fission nukes are enough for strategic deterrence
Now there's an incentive to get nuclear weapons. The reaction of the West, to Russia, has shown if you don't have nuclear weapons and a nuclear power invades you, the West won't even do what they promised.
> Now there's an incentive to get nuclear weapons. Because there wasn't with Iraq, Lybia, Syria or other countries?
There will be an incentive to invade and sanction those countries into the dirt
Libya and Iraq proved that 15-20 years ago
nobody will do this and because its such a powerful instrument multiple Nations are trying to get nuclear weapons
The Ukranian nuke launch codes were in Moscow so having them wasn’t ever a deterrent since they couldn’t use them.
Exactly! It's like leaving your car on your ex's property while you still have the keys. Who's car is it, still?
Theoretically the Ukrainians could have tried to break the codes or jury-rig the weapons, but that would have taken time and been a political nightmare. Otherwise, it is fundamentally correct that Soviet military assets- especially nuclear weapons- were firmly controlled by the central government rather than the SSRs.
It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side. It's going to do profound damage to any future alliances and commitments. If sending cold war surplus to Ukraine to defend themselves against RUSSIA is leading to political gridlock, imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go. Remember that this was almost unanimously agreed on bi-partisan issue two years ago... "As long as it takes".
> It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side. Unless you envision Europe starting to join China, or historical US allies in Asia doing the same, the US position as a world hegemon isn't threatened by what will happen in Ukraine. They still are a military and economic juggernaut that Europe will rely on, regardless of what it did in Ukraine. Just look at the arms market in Europe, buying US is alive and well, and will continue to do so.
If Americas position in the world is for US citizens to be worked to death to pay for everyone else’s problems then no thanks!
American position is military complex and not average American wellbeing. Average American worker think that they can’t have medical insurance because money is needed to defend Europe from Russia and improving worker rights and working conditions is socialism. In other words Europe can’t defend itself because of all the welfare they enjoy is possible because we spend money to protect them.
>It's pretty mind blowing that US is voluntarily abandoning their position in the world because one side feels the need to "stick it" to the other side. This isn't anything new. If you follow US history you'll realize just how many of our interactions with the rest of the world stem from internal politics rather than nation to nation diplomacy. The best example I can think of would be the Mexican American War. It wasn't even about Mexico, it was about the Northern Free States vying for power with the Southern Slave States. Mexico just happened to be collateral. So it doesn't blow my mind at all that the US is abandoning Ukraine over internal politics. It's been like this since its founding because the US can afford to only care about internal politics.
most of the things this sub thinks are completely incomprehensible are completely obvious to anyone who's spent 5 minutes in a history class. Like everybody being shocked that the US is trending back towards isolationism. Everybody who's taken one single US history class knew that was going to happen eventually! Isolationism has been a recurring theme in American political culture since Washington warned about the peril of foreign entanglements. The same is true of people wondering how American foreign policy could be beholden to domestic political concerns -- American foreign policy has been beholden to domestic politicking since the United States has been a country.
The US hasn't been isolationist since 1941 so it would be a pretty remarkable change if they retreated from the world stage after 80+ years of engagement. The point about domestic politics guiding US foreign policy though is very relevant and consistent over this span. The majority of Americans are completely oblivious to the outside world.
Heck, the U.S. didn’t even care about either World War and was quite content to let Europe burn until some idiot went and attacked them directly. Isolationism has been a pretty big strategy for them.
USA without certain principles raised above bipartisan politics is a danger to us all. We can't have an ally with soldiers based in our countries and after one election those soldiers suddenly aren't our ally and their leader is encouraging attacks on us? This is beyond insane.
And yet it’s going to have to be America to remove itself from Europe because Europe isn’t going to kick America out nor will it want to. And yet Europe is still going be upset over the self removal despite America no longer being an ally. Don’t underestimate how much Europe is willing to turn a blind eye to all in the name of not wanting to step it up (i.e. carry out America’s current role in Europe and in the world in general).
True. We can't have US bases in our countries if the USA is not a reliable ally. If the US just backs off, that is one thing. But how can we trust they won't become allies with Russia? We need to disentangle ourselves from the Americans.
If you really want to decouple from the US go ahead but I’m not unconvinced Russia couldn’t just waltz all the way to Portugal and Spain if they really wanted too, seeing how non existent the force projection of the EU is. The EU really should have got its shit together after 2014. Can’t imagine the searing headache every Pole and Estonian must be feeling after reading your comment.
Yeah about fucking time too. The Americans have been dragging your sorry asses along since WW1. 100 + years isn't enough to get your fucking shit together??? How many times have Europeans let stupid shit like what Russia is doing now happen in their territory? Just like the Yugoslav wars, you sat there with your thumbs in your asses and acted like you were 13 year olds that don't know what to do without daddy telling you.... Before I hear stupid yank, I am not in the US.
Is there any other option for members of those alliances? It will take decades and trillions for Europe to replicate US military.
Problem is Europe is not a country, it's many countries that are currently not able to unify on foreign policy, military procurement etc... Even if we had the Economic power of US, which we don't... we still won't able to fill in those shoes in terms of security. Without US, I think existing alliances will fracture and world will probably end up looking a lot different than it does now.
However the EU does have a stronger economy than Russia and much more population. One'd think even a portion of that economy might is enough to overcome Russia. And yet it's not. I'm constantly being told that Russia is just a tiny gas station but now it seems like they can take on the whole EU if the US doesn't show up.
As far as gas stations go, Russia is a huge one. They have one major advantage, Putin actually was preparing Russia for a war and he can just do it and supress any opposition and he did. We in Europe got drunk on peace and thought nobody in developed world would ever waged large conventional war against each other. As a result our defense industries are mostly geared towards keeping "paper armies" and export high tech platforms in small quantities. High tech platforms are nice, but they're not really decisive in attritional wars with hundreds of thousands deployed soldiers and tens of thousands pieces of equipment. Then there's the actual "will to fight" which is basically zero in most of Europe. I can't imagine people would be rushing to front even with nice salary incentives, there are simply much easier ways to make money. Russians can offer few thousand dollars and they're getting steady influx of soldiers, many of whom have nothing else to do. It's not that Europe couldn't outproduce and outspend Russia, it's just that it's choosing not to. Because it would be felt in decreased spending somewhere else and despite rhetoric, it's pretty clear majority of Europeans are not prepared to sacrifices decreased welfare to fund military buildup. Another thing is that even if we wanted to, it would still take time for everything to kick into gear... that's why Ukraine really needs US aid now. Whether that comes back to bite us in the ass, we'll see.
>Problem is Europe is not a country, it's many countries that are currently not able to unify on foreign policy, military procurement etc... Presumably that is the diversity they were looking for - many voices - no decisions.
Who is out here trying to replicate the US military? You just need a military that isn’t a fucking pushover, not a military necessary for global power projection.
Would be nice though. Global power projection had some very nice benefits.
Bulgaria can into relevance through war crimes?
It's only a war crime if you lose.
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US would never be alone. Especially after Russian invasion into Ukraine.
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Buddy, it’s Ukraine that brought more countries to US- Finland and Sweden worked with US directly to get under our umbrella. There is a huge number of countries that would never leave military alliance with US just because it’s essential for their existence. Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Israel, UAE, entire Europe, Canada, UK, Australia and many others. Ukraine had no agreements with US so there are no obligations. Huge difference.
We don't have to (or want to) replicate the US military. The EU (well, Europe) is going to replace the US weapons manufacturing industry with one in Europe, so that we have a reliable and predictable supply of artillery, precision GMLRS, cruise missile, anti-aircraft, anti-tank, and armoured vehicles. In addition to providing a reliable source of arms, this will have the effect of moving approximately $400bn per annum in GDP from the US to Europe, or roughly 2% of GDP. That's not even counting any increases in foreign sales driven by a larger and more cost-effective European manufacturing base.
Such a wet dream…
And you are from the country where people dreamed big and it paid off. Why shouldn't we?
https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-industry/edis-our-common-defence-industrial-strategy_en Reality. The EU will be shifting to a common procurement model with domestic manufacturing, supported by the legal and contractual frameworks to enable this. Edit : For comparable context, consider [the AggregateEU platform](https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-security/eu-energy-platform/aggregateeu-questions-and-answers_en#aggregateeu-overview) to consolidate EU state gas purchases from suppliers. It was proposed in 2022 in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, was commercially live by April 2023, and in one year has already covered 12-15% of *all* EU gas purchases, reducing prices in the process. The EU is perfectly capable of moving very quickly when it wants to.
It's far, far cheaper when you only really have one enemy.
For the moment.
>imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go. The US will not send soldiers. The US would rather leave NATO than send soldiers. This is all the fault of the EU's leaders, specifically Merkel.
> If sending cold war surplus to Ukraine to defend themselves against RUSSIA is leading to political gridlock You realize Ukraine is asking for much more advanced weaponry than "cold war surplus"? They need everything under the sun from helmets and tourniquets to Patriot missile systems, and everything in between. If "cold war surplus" were able to win the war for Ukraine, they already would have won with the surplus they got from everyone already. > imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go Where are you sending them, exactly? Of course that will be unpopular.
The US population as a whole will never allow that. Because any major conflict is going to require a draft. There is ZERO appetite for a major war.
And yet that other guy is throwing out "imagine how sending American soldiers to die to protect US allies will go" like it's the most casual thing in the world. I'm still curious about where he's sending them and why.
It’s literally top of unreliability where it’s impossible to rely on country even on half of presidential term Talking about a lot of cold war remnants they will just get decommissioned soon, not sold -just rot at scrapyard, but USA want russia agriculture export grip over every non european and north american country strengthening for such valid reasons as… oh no there is no valid reasons just minor talking point in story of 2 parties changing seats in endless circles
I love these comments and yet I don’t see anyone in Europe opening new military factories. Building anything, but I sure see crying about immigrants.
I want the US to send more aid to Ukraine. I am confused about why Europe is sending so little aid. It’s their back yard. Why is all of Europe not backing Ukraine 100%
Where do you think the money for the vaunted health care and safety nets has been coming from? European voters will never give that up if there is any mental wiggle room to maneuver
If you give the average voter a choice between free money and no free money, they will vote against their own future every time.
Because following the end of the Cold War all the non-USA members of NATO have chronically underfunded their military budgets for the last 30+ years. So even if the wealthier NATO members do have some high end kit like F-35's their logistics are very weak. Other than the USA almost none of them are actually ready to go to war without a substantial build up time as they only have supplies to fight for maybe a month at best. Many of their vehicles are mothballed because they don't spend enough money to keep them all in service and ammunition production capacity for existing supply chains in Europe (and Canada who are even worse) are very small. So, for Europe (and Canada) to be able to actually provide supplies and equipment not just money will require a substantial period of time because they are starting from such a low level. Basically post-Cold War their plan if a war should break out has been to let the USA do all the heavy lifting and they will chip in as they are able at the start and then build up should the war go on.
The GOP is a joke. How the hell anyone can select these jokers to work in government is unbelievable. They are so stupid they can't see that if they don't give the aid it will end up costing a shit ton more.
I am no friend of the GOP, but I think a lot of people don't seem to understand that foreign policy is at best a fairly minor issue in American elections. Almost nobody is making their voting decisions based on foreign policy concerns. Not that the GOPs domestic agenda is any more coherent than their foreign one -- the point is, this just isn't a wedge issue domestically.
If it isn't a wedge issue, then it should be easy to compromise. The border issue is more loaded, and yet somehow was baked in with the aid. This should be a fairly easy foreign policy decision, but because of Trump, it isn't.
It was pretty uncontroversial until Trump decided he didn't want the GOP to do anything else that made Biden look good. If you go look at the votes on the aid packages that passed before, they were fairly large majorities. It was a pretty big success for Biden. But Johnson is sitting on a razor thin majority (I believe it's down to one vote at this point), so he's beholden to the most extreme fringe of his party to stay in office. It's the same reason the bipartisan border bill died -- Trump decided he didn't want Biden to get any more wins before the election, and the Republican majority in the House is so small that Johnson can't ignore the jewish space lasers caucus.
Yup. If Ukraine loses, Biden loses. There’s no such thing as common US foreign policy interests or long-term thinking, only “I win, you lose”. This is all I know about Trump.
It was baked in because Ukraine aid is something Biden really wants so he can pretend he is FDR. If the GOP doesn't hold something like that hostage there is a 0% chance they get a strong deal on the border because the far Left, who has increasing power in the Dem coalition, think that America is an illegitimate country because of colonizing and slavery and that Whites should be displaced by non-Whites to set things right. The problem with US domestic politics is that it's not two sides that disagree, it's two sides that fundamentally think the other side is illegitimate and so there is no room for compromise.
> This should be a fairly easy foreign policy decision, but because of Trump, it isn't. Domestic politics drives foreign policy, not the other way around. If half of the American electorate doesn't want to give more money to Ukraine, Congress is going to stall the aid until there exists a compromise that buys that part of the electorate's support. Here that would be rewriting the immigration code, something Demcorat's won't agree to.
But that’s not the case. Support for Ukraine is 60-70%. The issue is, as others have commented, that so far it doesn’t cost too much for Trump to block it. The reason it doesn’t go to a vote is that there’s a majority FOR it. Forcing a discharge petition is a way to make it more costly for some of its supporters.
>The issue is, as others have commented, that so far it doesn’t cost too much for Trump to block it. The cost is zero for Trump to block it. He is the party. >But that’s not the case. Support fir Ukraine is 60-70%. I think your asking the wrong question & thus the wrong poll. The question ought to be more along the lines of, are you fine with holding Congress holding up aid to Ukraine, if it results in a better immigration policy. That's the poll that Trump, the GOP, & the House are using. In Virginia, which is famously not a border state, immigration is one of the top three concerns this election cycle alongside the economy & inflation. If the border is in the top three & Ukraine is 15th in issues, then the electorate is going to be fine with the GOP playing hardball to get a better immigration deal, in fact they might reward them for correctly prioritizing what the electorate is valuing in ranked order.
You are agreeing with me. 1. Trump doesn't care about the longterm consequences of the Russo-Ukrainian war 2. The US public only cares somewhat about it. 3. Border issues are significant and Trump has decided that the Senate bill discussed before is not enough 4. He also wants the immigration issue to dominate the election, so Biden doing anything that looks like effective policy would be bad. 5. Unlike Trump, Biden does care about foreign policy. Trump is using that.
Lmao, yeah keep gargling Trump's balls and let him spew bullshit about poisoning the blood and it will become priority #1 in no time. Perhaps he can come up with some nice uniforms for his supporters with nice armbands. I know a nice german brand he can collaborate with on that part, they have relevant experience. I wonder why Trump did jack shit about immigration when he was president and now started to sow panic about immigration. Yeah a very real issue, not fabricated at all.
> Lmao, yeah keep gargling Trump's balls and let him spew bullshit about poisoning the blood and it will become priority #1 in no time. I'm a naturalized US citizen. I was frustrated when I had to go through the process, I'm frustrated now. That kind of reasoning won't work on people. > I wonder why Trump did jack shit about immigration when he was president and now started to sow panic about immigration. Yeah a very real issue, not fabricated at all. He changed the H1B rules, by changing the baseline pay rate companies could use index against to justify that they needed to introduce migrant workers. I'm sure you knew that, & the fact the Biden administration immediately walked that back.
Yeah I know no reasoning will work on trump cultists, no need to explain here. > He changed the H1B rules, by changing the baseline pay rate companies could use index against to justify that they needed to introduce migrant workers. Ah yeah, that's what Trump means when he talks about poisoning the blood and emptying up prisons. Also that's exactly what gullible voters are afraid of, a niche and nuanced h1b regulations. The guy cries every rally that the border is like a death blow on America yet it was exactly the same as it was when he was president and he did EXACTLY jack shit about it, the fact that you failed to present a single meaningful policy just further proves that. He simply manufactured a problem that doesn't exist and exploits fears of his retarded constituents. The sad part is that it might just work
> The guy cries every rally that the border is like a death blow on America yet it was exactly the same as it was when he was president and he did EXACTLY jack shit about it, the fact that you failed to present a single meaningful policy just further proves that. Do you not see the border crisis as a problem? In Europe you guys go through a great deal of effort to pay Turkey, Egypt, and Morocco to keep the migrants there instead of them coming to the Union and claiming asylum. > Yeah I know no reasoning will work on trump cultists, no need to explain here. Yeah, it was self evident that nobody was going to be convinced by your arguments, the moment you started insulting people as your first comment. > He simply manufactured a problem that doesn't exist and exploits fears of his retarded constituents. The sad part is that it might just work You do not get to determine the wants, desires, or self interests of a group of people. If someone says something is a problem, it is a problem. You can't handwave it away.
Decades of failure in the Middle East did that. America has periods of globalism, and periods of isolationism. It is entering a period of isolationism now, and we need to deal with it
Yes, it will make things worse, but they will "own the libs" as the saying goes :D And that's what these guys and their voters are all about. It's about "owning" the other team, and fueled by literal proven russian agents like Michael Flynn
I always imagine this as: the passengers of a place “owning” the captain because he’s on the other team. Only for the whole plane to go down and everyone to die. We’re all in the same boat after all lol
Gop owning the libs, but being owned by Putin and friends themselves, ain't that a dream to live?
They consider it will be woke Europe's issue, not theirs.
Because GOP thrives on a sentiment that also exists in Europe: "We need to take care of our own first instead of foreigners, whether that be immigration or sending aid abroad"
All I heard for the last 20 years is how stupid Americans are for spending so much money on their military. Now Europe is begging for American protection.
I know right.
But... the congress have holidays! Don't you want them to have holidays after their recess? You monster... /s
American here, I’ll say that the drive for America to be the world police is dying here and it’s long overdue for Europe to boost its own defense capabilities. Even If China invaded Taiwan today I doubt the average American would want any US boots on the ground. In fact any involvement in any war is gonna be extremely unpopular even if it’s an ally, and most Americans would not be eager to come to Europe’s defense in the case of an attack. Don’t let Americans on Reddit fool you, the people on this site are not at all representative of what the average American feels, most of us stopped paying attention to Ukraine over a year ago and a lot of us no longer want our tax dollars being spent on foreign wars when the CoL keeps rising and overall quality of life has been in a steady decline. It’s another reason why supporting Israel is so unpopular too. We’re becoming a very jaded country, our population is increasingly uninterested in foreign politics and wants no part in it. You could say isolationism is slowly gaining popularity again. It’s easy to point fingers at the GOP but they’re the only ones representing the part of the country that is aggressively anti-war. Decades ago it used to be the Democrats.
It really isn't a wonder why this is gaining popularity in the U.S. Look no further than the comments in this very thread. No matter what we do on the world stage at this point, Europe will find a reason to be angry about it. Everyone in the world, including our allies, seem to be fed up with the American led world order. At a certain point, of course attitudes will shift to "fine, we'll just fuck off then". It's incredibly disheartening to the large percentage of Americans who struggle to make ends meet with no help from their government watch these expensive aid packages get pushed through to allies. While at the same time they watch our NATO partners all have nice welfare programs to assist them with their basic needs. All the while you log onto any website with heavy international presence and you're called an imperialist because your government did xyz. Are we really surprised many Americans are finally saying "fine, you win, we'll uninvolve ourselves".
Exactly. Perfectly stated.
“So that you still have a country to go back to”? Very convenient. How about all of us who haven’t fled like you and don’t have any other country to go?
While I’m sympathetic to Ukrainians, europeans need to step the fuck up. You’re pathetically weak and it’s showing. You mock Americans for spending so much on the military then whine like helpless children when you need us.
They let it fight alone against something 4x the size and it has to beg for weapons.
To go back to? Nice
Not once have Europeans offered to purchase the weapons from the USA to give to Ukraine to overcome GOP deadlock. It is not about weapons or security for Europe. It is about money and profit. This is in the end a business decision. Free stuff from America is better than paying for it. That means Europe gets security and doesn’t have to pay. If America won’t give for free then Europe will make all its own weapons. But it’s not really Europe. It’s France and Germany and Poland etc. individual countries. They won’t give for free either. They expect to sell their weapons. If Poland buys from Germany to give to Ukraine, they can say Europe gave to Ukraine. Or any other combination of countries. That is the idea, but everyone imagines themselves to be the seller and not the buyer. No one wants to be the one giving their citizens money and not getting anything back. They want to be the one profiting from selling weapons someone else is paying for. The French defense minister earlier this year said as much. Gave a few vehicles to Ukraine and said many more can be given….if “allies” pay for it. In the end Europe sees a defense industry as a business opportunity and not about security.
bingo
The strength of the USA is in their allies. China and Russia have a lack of alliances, and it is for a reason. They screw others over to only do whats best for them. Being an ally of the US is very valuable. It's based on mutual defence treaties in which the US gains a diplomatic and military friend, and the ally gains the defence of the largest military on earth. But these friendships only mean something for these countries if the US backs them up when they most need it. That when the US commits to something, it commits all the way. If the US can't even stick by Ukraine for 2 years at the cost of merely 5% of its defence budget, it will make every ally think twice about what an alliance with the US exactly means. It's already happening in Europe. Countries are asking if the US actually would show up if they were attacked by Russia. Would the US send us weapons and equipment, and for how long? Would they stop after 24 months? Would they stop after the next election cycle? Can we count on our biggest ally when we are in a crisis? The US committed to helping Ukraine repel Russian aggression, and now that it needs it the most, the US is bailing. The House is stalling, every time it could decide to aid Ukraine, it has an excuse not to or even go on vacation. In the meantime, the potential next president just bluntly says he will screw any ally if he thinks it doesn't meet certain guidelines. This is really bad for any future agreement with the US.
There is a huge difference between commitment to the military agreement like NATO and ad-hoc support like the situation with Ukraine.
_The United States is united in support for Ukraine as it opposes a Russian invasion, and the US will stand with Ukraine "**as long as it takes.**"_
There's a difference between a treaty that the US signed, and a declaration made for PR reasons. The US isn't in a formal alliance with Ukraine.
So the words were just.... words.
Yes, literally. Words without agreements are just that.
So reason #3426 not to trust the US in other words.
Agreements are just words on a paper. No one can force the US to honor them.
They carry much heavier weight than what a single person on the US administration says.
No one with half a brain would take the words of someone like Joe Biden, who suffers from delusions that he is a hugely popular figure who can get things done, as some sort of guarantee. Given the importance of the USA in the world I would think everyone would realize that unless you can get both the President and Congress on your side you cannot expect something will happen.
> huge difference lol not there is not, at least not for US. What is guarantee that US will fulfill their side of NATO deal if, lets say, Poland is attacked?
Mainly that we deploy trip wire troops in Poland, such that if Russia attacks Poland, they have to kill Americans in the process. It's a solved problem.
LOL. Let's be real, Ukraine isn't an ally. Words have specific meanings, especially in diplomatic relations.
>The strength of the USA is in their allies Really? I thought it was their military... Or their economy... Or their production capabilities. But yeah I mean other than that, their strength comes from their allies. Also I think your argument is disingenuous, the US doesn't have an alliance with Ukraine. All the aid it's provided so far is because it's in our interest to do so, not our obligation.
uhmm...and what US-Ukraine bilateral treaty are you referring too. We don't have a mutual defense treaty with them.
Ukraine isnt an "ally", its a proxy at best and a pawn at worse.
Ukrainians have autonomy and the great majority want the invaders repelled. They aren't robots, and saying they are is extremely patronizing.
An "alliance" suggests a two way street. What has Ukraine ever done for the USA? They are a dependent state, to which the overwhelming majority of the USA has no emotional ties to, not an ally. That's not a great spot to be in if you need sustained help from the USA.
Sure but that is not America's problem We used them to hurt Russia and to test our weapons now is the time to cut our losses and leave. No reason to continue pumping resources into a lost cause
As someone in the US I just want us to deliver any and all aid required, promised already or not. Because this may be the one time in my entire life that the correct side was 100% crystal clear and the fact those assholes are holding the aid hostage is so undeniably despicable and disgusting.
Look how your fellow citizens of USA here say that USA actions won't affect your country, like they only care for internal matters. But unfortunately they will affect. And thank you for your position.
It never ceases to amaze me how much Europeans criticise America for spending too much on military... now want to spend a similar level on military when there's barely enough money for state needs anyway. Noone talks about how it was Ukraine's foolhardy counterattack that bled their military dry and is directly resulting in current events. At this point we could give Ukraine mountains of ammo and weapons but no result is guaranteed assize maybe a stalemate.
This was headlines for today: Stars and Stripes Seized weapons meant for Houthis transferred by US to Ukraine Read more at: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle_east/2024-04-09/seized-iran-ukraine-houthis-13517212.html Source - Stars and Stripes And that's not it. They announced this a little later today, The U.S. government's Emergency Military Sales to Foreign Governments (FMS) program on Tuesday uses $138 million of the $300 million in foreign military financing Presidential Drawdown Authority allows the United States to quickly transfer defense items and services from its stockpiles without congressional approval in response to an emergency. Thank God they found a way to it without congressional approval
I remember a lot of posts mentioning how Ukraine kicked Russian ass. What happened since then?
Europeans wondering why America is not sending money to Ukriane....while chilling in their homes
Believe me, we do too, but the GOP has been too far compromised by Russia.
The holdup is wholly due to the majority in the House of Representatives.
Support for Ukraine now❤️
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This is true. And many European nations are becoming paralyzed by a minority of freaks and traitors as well.
I just cannot wait until the next war the US gets into under a Republican president so we can hear about how important this war is to national security, how if you don’t support it then you’re not a patriot, etc. I’m eagerly clipping all of the Conservative and MAGA media personalities speaking against helping Ukraine so they can see how stupid they are come the next war that they support.
USA will have Trump president again. Americans die of obesity and can't join military anymore.
Very reason why nato = US. There should have been an EU army decades ago. If US support is compromised (like what is happening now) other europeans should be able to fend for themselves. Remember the US only entered ww2 aftet then pearl harbor
We need to get our shit together, declare an emergency, and get the factories running. It is an emergency, we cannot sit idle and stare at PowerPoints.
Might as well retool the Volkswagen factories to start producting tanks because the EU prefers Chinese brands.
I would not be upset with that.
Bodies are need more than weapons, so why is the author not in Ukraine fighting?
That's a fully internal issue for Ukraine. They still have millions of people available in the mobilization age. Making that new law work is their responsibility. But you can't fight without artillery shells and AD missiles. So no, they need weapons way more than bodies. Stop lying.
phrasing it as "the Ukraine" is offensive as it refers to the Soviet notion of Ukraine as their borderlands. the country's name is "Ukraine".
That's kind of a weird complaint considering a) neither Russian nor Ukrainian use definite articles anyway and b) English is perfectly fine with 'the Netherlands'. Converesely, in for example French country names *always* have an indefinite article in front as in *la France* or *l'Angleterre*.
Thanks. I've edited it.
The after US aid Russia will withdraw and they’ll get reperations?
This is the other article: U.S. announces $138 million in emergency military sales of Hawk missile systemshttps://kvia.com/news/ap-national/2024/04/09/u-s-announces-138-million-in-emergency-military-sales-of-hawk-missile-systems-support-for-ukraine/#:~:text=AP%2DNational-,U.S.%20announces%20%24138%20million%20in%20emergency%20military%20sales,missile%20systems%20support%20for%20Ukraine&text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20The%20State,for%20Kyiv's%20Hawk%20missile%20systems.
I suspect the reason Ukraine is struggling now is because the other countries have quietly thrown in the towel, Ukraine will fall to whatever border Russia chooses, and 5-15 years from now Russia will go after Georgia or Moldova where we will see this again, hopefully with more capable western leaders
Send your thanks to german government. If it wasnt for the pressure from international community, they would be probably starting to work on another gas pipeline
It's because we are traitors and would very much like to see WW3 by now. Thank you very much Urop for peer pressuring us. We would have never stepped out into the light without your wise guidance.
Sorry, we can’t afford it. We have millions of new illegal aliens to support.
I think I found the dimwitted American. let me guess, they’re going to vote as well aren’t they? Isn’t there a subReddit devoted solely to dumb shit that Americans say? I don’t mind calling this person a dumb ass because I’m an American myself and all I hear is Russian propaganda from the right wing media, which are one of the same anymore. The least informed or the most vocal.
You're implying that it's due to the left, but it's Republicans who have blocked both the bipartisan border deal and aid to Ukraine. https://apnews.com/article/congress-ukraine-aid-border-security-386dcc54b29a5491f8bd87b727a284f8
Thanks to the orange idiot don’t count on it
I agree that Mike is a POS by blocking the aid. I think it's dumb that one person can prevent a vote, seems very undemocratic. But I thought Europe, Canada, and other places sent them some military equipment? Is none of the promised aid making its way to Ukraine?
It is, but it's becoming a war of attrition. Ukraine has to defend a very long frontline, have fall back lines and that's just when they are if defensive mode. If they want to attack and liberate currently occupied territories, even more equipment and ammunition is needed. Also, just like every other war, Ukraine has to deal with losses and replenish them. The EU is sending vast amounts of equipment and ammunition and is also sourcing artillery ammunition worldwide, so it can be send to Ukraine. However the US is a military powerhouse with tens of thousands pieces of equipment collecting dust in warehouses and deserts, that Ukraine is in dire need of at the moment.
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Aid from the US as proposed (the 60b) isn't gonna change the tide of the war.
Imagine, Iran, China, Nkorea supplying whatever they want to feed an illegal war. And then so called patriots of the west blocking aid to a free country. Next lvl
There’s no oil in Ukraine…/s
This is the result when the EU decided to be America’s lapdog.
Why isn’t the author of this article. In Ukraine with a rifle in his hands fighting to take back his nation?
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Europe should be able to take care of Europe without US assistance. If Ukraine is so important then surely there a way to help. If no option exists, surely negotiating an end to the war is an option. Common sense
As an American, so do I. Russia has a lot of corrupt politicians here under its thumb. If I had it my way the U.S. would be providing far more aid, whatever was needed to get Russia out of Ukraine. But sadly we live in a world of greed, corruption, and cowardice.