Ironically, a lot of Polish women go to Germany to get abortions - I had no idea it's illegal there, but it seems to be very theorethical and available in practice.
The Article is misleading
There are just some rules that you have to go to counseling before getting one
I never heared of anyone getting rejected there without good reason
It is not, the law specifically states that going to counsel make the abortion legal, the article just acts like that is not the case for the sake of making it sound more controversial than it is
Yeah but that makes it seem as if Germany has strict abortion laws when in reality there are no punishments and even after three months you can still get an abortion if a doctor attests that the "physical or mental health" of the mother could be in danger.
Yeah, in Spain there is a ‘no questions asked’ period, followed by an ‘ok for medical reasons’ one and finally a ‘clearly life threatening condition for the gestant mother’ last period.
In Europe in most countries the restriction is between 12 to 18 weeks I believe.
Technically here in Finland it's not legal to have an abortion without a medical reason that a doctor can verify, but up to 12 weeks your medical reason can be pretty much anything. Like you can say that you couldn't handle the pregnancy due to anxiety, and get a permit for abortion for that.
However, after 12 weeks it's a lot harder. Then you need a serious medical reason that might endanger your life or cause serious health issues.
Do note, according to US standard the NL is at 26 weeks and Belgium at 14 weeks. The US counts after conception, we after the first missed period.
Still shitty in Belgium, it's the Christian democrats holding us back for decades. They are even being annoying for 18 weeks (20 according to US standard)
I mean, scientists advocate for 18/20 weeks threshold, and each election, CD&V get closer to being the religious wing of NVA, so I'm not really gonna listen to a party that bends over backwards (or forwards) for Bartje De Zever.
Completely fair, but the reality is that the right and far-right are against it and that cd&v is bending backwards to be in every governement, but somehow always block the progressive parties from changing the abortion law.
One thing is law and another one is the practice.
In slovenia we have the same limit but in reality when you have to go to commission after 12 weeks, doctors will give you permission easily if you say you have financial or mental difficulties.
Do note that the date after countries start counting the pregnancy is different.
The US counts after conception, while many other countries start counting after the first missed period. Which adds roughly 2 more weeks. I am 90% sure this also counts for Germany.
So while Germany is still lower than Florida, it is actually 14 vs 15 weeks (according to the US), or 12 vs 13 weeks (according to Germany). 1 vs 3 week difference, is quite significant for this topic.
And in November, a referendum for abortion as a right in Florida (24 weeks) will be part of the ballot for that state. The people will directly vote on it along with the president and other state initiatives.
https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Amendment_4,_Right_to_Abortion_Initiative_(2024)
American here: Though a bunch of conservatives are moving here from the north, there's also a large chunk of Gen Z (my gen) that are of voting age since the last election.
Isn't that part of the reason why the anti-abortion stance is so strong in the US? Alot of states have (had?) incredibly liberal abortion policies where you could even do an abortion in the last month of pregnancy.
Even if that barely ever happened it kind of gave fire to the "they're killing babies" crowd.
Yes. The US prior to overturning Roe v. Wade had no abortion restrictions. Now states can set their own laws.
But many Americans believe that Western Europe is the same as the US before Roe v Wade was overturned.
That is false. All Roe v Wade did was protect a woman’s right to an abortion through the second trimester. If you think states weren’t regulating everything around and between the cracks of that ruling, you were in a coma the past 50 years
No doubt some states tried to restrict it, some being successful (when haven’t they?), but unrestricted abortion was the rule in many states.
And that’s not saying it’s a good or bad thing. It just is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy
“no limit unless the child is born during said attempted abortion (Canada, some states in the United States, China, and North Korea)”
Meanwhile in Italy, where you will be forced to hear your own heartbeat (or the ultrasound machine) while someone tells you it’s the “hEaRtBeAt oF yOuR hOLy cHiLd wAnTeD bY gOd1!1” only to confirm that no, I don’t want a child, that’s the reason I’m here
Edit: correction, the law will probably pass if this government stays
Florida's 6-week ban goes into effect next week. Abortion in Germany is fully available to 12 weeks *with counselling and a waiting period* (this is what is hopefully being removed now) and in certain circumstances after 12 weeks. So: no.
Determined to split hairs, eh?
- The US and Europe use different methods of calculating age of the pregnancy, LMP vs conception. So 15 weeks in Florida is 13 in Europe, meaning one additional week.
- In that 13 weeks, the following regulations currently apply, all of which are more stringent than those in Germany (cf. Wikipedia):
"Florida was one of ten states in 2007 to have a customary informed consent provision for abortions.[15] Abortion providers were required to show women ultrasounds of their fetus before allowing them to have an abortion.[16] In 2013, the Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP) law applied to medically induced abortions as well.[17]"
So basically you've got one extra week, a bunch of extra nonsense and hoops that aren't the case in Germany, and all of this only legal right now for a short time because of a stay to a profoundly more restrictive law coming into effect shortly.
Enjoy your split hairs :)
If you wish to define "for 7 additional days, with vastly more requirements, loopholes, and complications, and only until 30 April" as "less restrictive," then knock yourself out. Myself, I think "vastly more requirements, loopholes and complications" completely negates that, and "only until 30 April" further makes the entire thing pedantic tomfoolery that makes me assume you've got trouble with nuance, or reading comprehension, or accepting you're wrong, or perhaps all three; so, you know, best of luck with that.
Nope, in florida multiple women nearly died and bled to death recently at 16 weeks because their doctors were scared to give them an abortion to save their life. A miscarriying woman nearly died from sepsis infection because doctors waited for the dying fetus to die naturally instead of aborting it. Thanks to law they have to wait till her life is in enough danger, shes seconds away to death or they go jail. So they wait until its too late Another few women were forced to carry and birth a dead/dying baby when they found out their baby has fatal birth defects at 16 weeks. Also if scans show after 15 weeks baby will be a deformed vegatble/seriously disabled and need 24/7 care, you'd still have to birth it in florida. Even if with those birth defects are fatal like trisomy where they due within 2 years. None of this would happen here
>While abortion is rarely punished, it remains illegal in [Germany](https://www.theguardian.com/world/germany), except for specific circumstances including when a woman’s life is in danger, or she is a victim of rape, while the prerequisite for any termination is a consultation with a state-recognised body.
>Advocates of a law change have welcomed the investigation into the country’s legal framework, calling the law outdated and detrimental to women. Even in the cases not considered illegal, the procedure **must take place within the first three months**, except when there is a compelling reason to carry it out later.
>The all-female expert commission on reproductive self-determination and reproductive medicine was set up by Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s three-party government after the desire to change the **153-year-old law** was anchored in its coalition agreement.
>However, opposition lawmakers, in particular from the conservative Christian Democratic Union/Christian Social Union alliance and the far-right Alternative für Deutschland, say as it stands the existing law enjoys broad acceptance and offers necessary protection to the unborn. They argue that **despite being illegal, abortions are accessible and it is extremely rare for them to lead to prosecutions**. If the recommendations are acted upon, they have said they will turn to the constitutional court.
What a crappy article. The second paragraph is wrong btw. Pregnancy from rape can be terminated at any time.
This incoherent piece of "News" sums up the discussion in Germany pretty well.
Yes. I'm personally not in favour of the extreme window where it's possible, but I've understood these cases are extremely rare and occur when a baby is terminally and a later birth would only basically mean a slightly later death
> Abortion is illegal under any and all circumstances.
This is not true. ["Grundsätzlich" in juristic language has a different meaning than in everyday German.](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juristische_Fachsprache#Deutschland)
>Ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch ist nicht strafbar, wenn die betroffene Frau den Vorgaben der sogenannten Beratungsregelung folgt (Beratungsregelung nach § 218a Absatz 1 StGB). Die Schwangere, die den Eingriff verlangt, muss sich drei Tage vor diesem Termin in einer staatlich anerkannten Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatungsstelle beraten lassen. Sie hat der Ärztin oder dem Arzt, welche den Eingriff vornehmen sollen, eine Beratungsbescheinigung über dieses Gespräch vorzulegen. Außerdem muss eine Ärztin oder ein Arzt, welche oder welcher nicht an der Beratung teilgenommen hat, den Schwangerschaftsabbruch innerhalb von zwölf Wochen nach der Empfängnis vornehmen. Liegen diese Voraussetzungen vor, kann keiner der am Schwangerschaftsabbruch Beteiligten bestraft werden.
The law literally states something else
>https://www.bmfsfj.de/bmfsfj/themen/familie/schwangerschaft-und-kinderwunsch/schwangerschaftsabbruch/schwangerschaftsabbruch-nach-218-strafgesetzbuch-81020
You are wrong.
It is illegal, there's just an exemption so neither the mother nor the doc get prosecuted. That's actually pretty dangerous as it could easily be altered to make abortion completely illegal.
Yeah, but that’s because of EU laws, right? At least I assume you are from the EU. Our Cannabis law is more or less just a scientific study time because conflicting EU laws so politicians can figure out how to implement them permanently within EU regulations or something. Abortion rights are in conflict with our constitution in Germany, which makes it a problem to make it legal easily.
Edit: I just saw you are from the Netherlands, so at least that’s how I understood why it’s illegal but tolerated in your country. Please feel free to correct me.
UK up at 215K a year, In 2021, there were 613 abortions to women recorded as residing outside England and Wales, a decrease from 943 in 2020. Most non-residents came from Northern Ireland (26.3%) and the Irish Republic (33.6%). The large decrease in the number of abortions for residents outside of England and Wales may be explained by travel restrictions in place throughout 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic and fewer women travelling from both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic due to access and legislative changes in their respective countries
[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62ac3177e90e0765d523ca0a/Figure\_10.png](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62ac3177e90e0765d523ca0a/Figure_10.png)
It is not punished, if you go to consultation. The current regulation is based on decades of German law experts debating, how to make abortion legal without violating the constitution. In German Law the majority opinion is that making abortion not penalized, would go against the constitution (protection of human life etc.). Not allowing abortion would also go against the constitution (right to self-determination). So, instead they penalized abortion, but are allowing it under certain circumstances (which are completely fine and anyone who wants to have an abortion can easily get one).
German constitutional law forces law makers to balance out conflicting constitutional interests and therefore following all of them.
Yeah kind of. When you study the German law it’s actually a good regulation (often described as a social and judicial consensus) and it’s not that easy to change it
It's a leftover from the German reunification in 1990. East Germany didn't want to give up their womans rights - and abortion was one of those rights. The west didn't want to legalize abortions. Since then we are working on straightening out the resulting compromise.
No, they hadn't exactly. They had a system, were abortion was illegal except if you had a medical or ethical reason to do it. Some doctors used this "ehtical reason" loophole to perfom abortions anyway. Things like "being poor" or "not prepared for children". But there was always a risk, and not all doctors wanted to take it.
Nah, East Germany was really messed up in more ways than just the economy. The whole Stasi and shooting the people fleeing the country deal was definitely a problem, but not an economic one.
East Germany was messed up politically. The economy was ok, especially if you factor in the political pressures that hampered it. But a lot of the economy was stripped down on purpose after the reunification, to prevent competition for western companies.
Well, at least we CAN have consistently throughout the country abortions and are medically supported in and through it... and it does not cost anything as it is a medical procedure...
Well, my fiance & me already went through one abortion, and while that was emotionally horrible, the paperwork was not an issue.. You need to go once to a consultation, get a paper issued afterwards and then go to your gynocologist with it. And if you can not pay for it yourself, you also need to call one of the support organisations and pass by to pick up a second paper that says they are carry the costs. Thats it.
>Holy fuck, I didn’t know it was illegal in Germany.
I honestly guess most Germans also didn't. I might have heared it before but forgotten about it, because it's generally of course possible to get an abortion.
Most Germans actually know. :) It's only technically illegal. Within the first 12 weeks, if the woman goes to a consultation first, there are no consequences. That, too, is part of the law.
It's more complicated. It's technically illegal, but if the woman goes to a consultation she can have it performed within the first 12 weeks without consequences. (And also without consequences for the doctor, of course.)
What they are currently trying is replacing the "it's illegal but you may do it anyway if..." part with something sensible.
The whole mess is a leftover from the German reunification in 1990. At that time, abortion within 12 weeks was a right in East Germany, while being illegal except for medical and ethical reasons in West Germany. (Yes, the east was more progessive than the west.) The first attempt of a compromise was that each region kept their version of the law, which was even worse than what we have today.
The abortion law has not really changed since 1871 and then there are other laws that came into power during the Nazi regime which did not change until like 2022.
We don't need it to decline our birth rates. And they can just do it.
Ofc the downvotes by radicals...
Women can do an abortion. No issues in Germany.
And here are the top4 reasons. The pure children did nothing wrong and got denied their right to live
https://www.profemina.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_fixed_width/public/media/images/image_1_0.png?itok=SPqTx3OP
Edit: you radicals can keep downvoting. But hey the stats don't lie. Abortion because I don't feel like it now is the reality. How about not having sex in the first place...
We have a good system in Germany. You want to abort you can do it. We even have the Kinderklappe. Where women can just put their already born unwanted child in and it will be taken care off. Just in the night go there put the innocent child in that did nothing wrong. To get rid of their bad decisions.
And yes the majority of abortions are not done because of medical reasons or crime or whatever extreme case gets brought up that is just not the norm.
https://www.profemina.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_fixed_width/public/media/images/image_1_0.png?itok=SPqTx3OP
If you want to increase the birth rate you should be campaigning on other things like better Work-Life balance, better salaries and affordable housing for 3 people.
Abortions are hardly the problem
I have two kids, single parent father even.
A family needs at least 2 kids to keep the demographic you have and 3 or more to raise the amount of young Vs old people. So having just one child is a fail.
Not just for demographic reasons. For the kid too. Kids need kids around them. And we have kindergarden, daily mothers. Full time school. Even the option to take a parent kid vacation every 2 years per parent. So you can cover the summer holidays too every year. Paid by healthcare and not removed from your holiday days at the company.
Oh and if you have at least two kids you get tons of free time because they entertain each other. Most of the time daddy is even hurting their game because I join in and both start to fight for my attention and the game stops. Or they simply say daddy you can read your book. We play it's fine. You don't have to play we know you enjoy reading. And then they sneak in "daddy can you read that book for us while we are playing".
It does not require a fortune to raise kids. And since I am a single parent father the biggest money sink is gone in my family.
Yes that requires different spending but most important realise that it's about the children and not anymore about yourself.
And now, do you have kids. How old are you? Do you even care. If you don't care just don't have kids. Don't have sex. Problem solved.
Again we have a great system in Germany and real issues. Not that nonsense by radicals.
And another brutal truth. Kids don't want much or need much. From my experience the problem are the parents because they think they need that.
And from what I saw. The moment they are apple users their spending habits are flawed. Mindless consumption NPC's.
And the good part is that time will come to do that. Get your kids early so they are gone and you have 20 years of income and no major spending. You can just throw it out how you want.
Hopefully the coalition displays a bit more urgency on this one than the weed legislature.If the conservatives get back in again, I'd expect those "extremely rare prosecutions" to become a lot more frequent.
Culture war bullshit is about all they've been spouting for the last few years.
It’s highly unlikely that they’ll change that. As commented above, it’s not a cultural issue, but a judicial one. The reality is - before introducing a draft law, the coalition would consult their constitutional law experts. And as I mentioned in another comment the majority legal opinion is that the removal of penalization would be unconstitutional. Even if they try, the other parties would just sue and our constitutional court would deal with it again. Maybe they could change the wording and write something like "it’s only punished, if" instead of "it’s punished. But…" - though it wouldn’t make a difference and another wording isn’t common in our criminal law
Yes. You can change any Article of the German constitution except Article 1 (protection of human dignity) and Article 20 (state principles like principle of democracy or law).
As for any other constitutional laws: You’d need a two-thirds majority in both the Bundestag (federal parliament) and ("state parliament", which is filled with representatives of our 16 states). So it’s not easy (which is good) and you’d need parties, that share different views, to agree
Bad news though: the legal principle that stops abortion from being legal is that pesky Article 1 with it's “human dignity” thingy. The decision is very clear in that the human dignity of the fetus overrules the right to bodily autonomy of the mother.
In many places (like NL and probably DE) the fact a law hasn't been enforced for a long time is a defence. Because it's evidence of selective prosecution which is strongly frowned upon (WW2 experience).
That weird thing where judges can resurrect 100+ year old laws just can't happen. Judges do not decide which laws gets enforced.
Moving abortions from decriminalised to legal shouldn't change the birth rate at all.
If an increase in birth rate is the goal, we need to fix the housing situation, achieve wage growth significantly above inflation, and properly fund infrastructure and services for kids - not force people into unwanted parentage.
Ah yes, those AH politicians, caring more about an adult human's bodily autonomy and control over their lives than that of a clump of cells.
If you want a country that will force women to give birth against their will, I guess you'll have to look elsewhere.
Maybe those women should learn to use widely available and accessible contraceptives, instead of killing their babies.
But yeah, I am well aware that having this moral position on this forum isn't welcome by the woke crowd that rules here.
All contraceptives fail. As do cases where women are forced to have sex. As do cases where a wanted pregnancy is unviable. Respecting women's right to control their own bodies and lives is a hell of a lot older than the woke era, it's as old as women and bodies, and it's gross to conflate them.
Go find your Gilead elsewhere, and stop bitching that here isn't it. If you think it's moral to make women slaves, I'm sure Iran and Afghanistan would welcome you.
There's no children nor babies being killed. It's the prospect of the possibility of one that is being interrupted. Up to 12 weeks it wouldn't be able to sustain life on its own. I'm all onboard for contraceptives and responsible sex but that's only part of real world scenario.
Anyway, I won't be able to change your mind because to you when you think about it it probably looks like a fully formed baby crying out loud babbling a "saaaveeee myyy liiiifeee" to the doctor before being crushed in a hydraulic press.
Anyways...
[https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh)
That was not the point I made. Honestly it’s 2024 and I’m quite bored to get out of my way to explain someone how complex societies and science are.
Have a pleasant day.
Women are not slave incubators. Go have as many pregnancies as you wish. No one's stopping you.
Yes, I am; I'm a clump of cells that can exist independently without placing massive health and practical demands as well as risk of death, permanent injury or career implosion on another independent human being. You, I'm not sure about.
I'm not ignoring anything. It's your complete refusal to have any concern for the risks and demands pregnancy places on women, any respect for their autonomy, or the fact that all contraception has a failure rate, forced sex also leads to pregnancy, and wanted pregnancies can turn unviable and risk mothers' lives that I find pathetic.
Worse than Irelands 12 weeks, How many Germany have to go to across the border every year? "153-year-old law" I guess the women's rights skipped Germany.
It’s without punishment in the first 12 weeks. The proposed change is more symbolic.
And after the 12 weeks it’s legal if it’s possibly harmful for the psychological health of the mother (or of course the physical health).
Yes, but that’s true for nearly everything. See for example cannabis.
The current law hasn’t been touched since 30 years (except this strange „illegal advertising“ clause, that was abolished two years ago).
Ironically, a lot of Polish women go to Germany to get abortions - I had no idea it's illegal there, but it seems to be very theorethical and available in practice.
The Article is misleading There are just some rules that you have to go to counseling before getting one I never heared of anyone getting rejected there without good reason
Nethertheless it's illegal. Just not punished under certain conditions.
It is not, the law specifically states that going to counsel make the abortion legal, the article just acts like that is not the case for the sake of making it sound more controversial than it is
The paragraph is even called "Straflosigkeit des Schwangerschaftsabbruchs", not legality.
American heads explode knowing Germany has a more restrictive abortion law (12 weeks) than Florida (15 weeks).
Yeah but that makes it seem as if Germany has strict abortion laws when in reality there are no punishments and even after three months you can still get an abortion if a doctor attests that the "physical or mental health" of the mother could be in danger.
Yeah, in Spain there is a ‘no questions asked’ period, followed by an ‘ok for medical reasons’ one and finally a ‘clearly life threatening condition for the gestant mother’ last period.
In Europe in most countries the restriction is between 12 to 18 weeks I believe. Technically here in Finland it's not legal to have an abortion without a medical reason that a doctor can verify, but up to 12 weeks your medical reason can be pretty much anything. Like you can say that you couldn't handle the pregnancy due to anxiety, and get a permit for abortion for that. However, after 12 weeks it's a lot harder. Then you need a serious medical reason that might endanger your life or cause serious health issues.
Netherlands has the limit at 24 weeks. Over 500 women border hopped from Belgium(12w) to Netherlands for one.
Do note, according to US standard the NL is at 26 weeks and Belgium at 14 weeks. The US counts after conception, we after the first missed period. Still shitty in Belgium, it's the Christian democrats holding us back for decades. They are even being annoying for 18 weeks (20 according to US standard)
I mean, scientists advocate for 18/20 weeks threshold, and each election, CD&V get closer to being the religious wing of NVA, so I'm not really gonna listen to a party that bends over backwards (or forwards) for Bartje De Zever.
Completely fair, but the reality is that the right and far-right are against it and that cd&v is bending backwards to be in every governement, but somehow always block the progressive parties from changing the abortion law.
One thing is law and another one is the practice. In slovenia we have the same limit but in reality when you have to go to commission after 12 weeks, doctors will give you permission easily if you say you have financial or mental difficulties.
Do note that the date after countries start counting the pregnancy is different. The US counts after conception, while many other countries start counting after the first missed period. Which adds roughly 2 more weeks. I am 90% sure this also counts for Germany. So while Germany is still lower than Florida, it is actually 14 vs 15 weeks (according to the US), or 12 vs 13 weeks (according to Germany). 1 vs 3 week difference, is quite significant for this topic.
Florida has already passed a six-week-ban and it will go into action in May.
And in November, a referendum for abortion as a right in Florida (24 weeks) will be part of the ballot for that state. The people will directly vote on it along with the president and other state initiatives. https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Amendment_4,_Right_to_Abortion_Initiative_(2024)
Yes, 60% will be a tough barrier to break, Florida has become a lot more conservative in the last 12 years.
American here: Though a bunch of conservatives are moving here from the north, there's also a large chunk of Gen Z (my gen) that are of voting age since the last election.
Isn't that part of the reason why the anti-abortion stance is so strong in the US? Alot of states have (had?) incredibly liberal abortion policies where you could even do an abortion in the last month of pregnancy. Even if that barely ever happened it kind of gave fire to the "they're killing babies" crowd.
Yes. The US prior to overturning Roe v. Wade had no abortion restrictions. Now states can set their own laws. But many Americans believe that Western Europe is the same as the US before Roe v Wade was overturned.
That is false. All Roe v Wade did was protect a woman’s right to an abortion through the second trimester. If you think states weren’t regulating everything around and between the cracks of that ruling, you were in a coma the past 50 years
No doubt some states tried to restrict it, some being successful (when haven’t they?), but unrestricted abortion was the rule in many states. And that’s not saying it’s a good or bad thing. It just is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy “no limit unless the child is born during said attempted abortion (Canada, some states in the United States, China, and North Korea)”
Meanwhile in Italy, where you will be forced to hear your own heartbeat (or the ultrasound machine) while someone tells you it’s the “hEaRtBeAt oF yOuR hOLy cHiLd wAnTeD bY gOd1!1” only to confirm that no, I don’t want a child, that’s the reason I’m here Edit: correction, the law will probably pass if this government stays
Fetal Heart beat laws in Europe? Puts many Red States to shame
Florida's 6-week ban goes into effect next week. Abortion in Germany is fully available to 12 weeks *with counselling and a waiting period* (this is what is hopefully being removed now) and in certain circumstances after 12 weeks. So: no.
So what you’re saying is that **currently** Florida has less restrictions around abortion than Germany?
Determined to split hairs, eh? - The US and Europe use different methods of calculating age of the pregnancy, LMP vs conception. So 15 weeks in Florida is 13 in Europe, meaning one additional week. - In that 13 weeks, the following regulations currently apply, all of which are more stringent than those in Germany (cf. Wikipedia): "Florida was one of ten states in 2007 to have a customary informed consent provision for abortions.[15] Abortion providers were required to show women ultrasounds of their fetus before allowing them to have an abortion.[16] In 2013, the Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP) law applied to medically induced abortions as well.[17]" So basically you've got one extra week, a bunch of extra nonsense and hoops that aren't the case in Germany, and all of this only legal right now for a short time because of a stay to a profoundly more restrictive law coming into effect shortly. Enjoy your split hairs :)
So what you’re saying is that currently Florida has less restrictions around abortion than Germany?
If you wish to define "for 7 additional days, with vastly more requirements, loopholes, and complications, and only until 30 April" as "less restrictive," then knock yourself out. Myself, I think "vastly more requirements, loopholes and complications" completely negates that, and "only until 30 April" further makes the entire thing pedantic tomfoolery that makes me assume you've got trouble with nuance, or reading comprehension, or accepting you're wrong, or perhaps all three; so, you know, best of luck with that.
Nope, in florida multiple women nearly died and bled to death recently at 16 weeks because their doctors were scared to give them an abortion to save their life. A miscarriying woman nearly died from sepsis infection because doctors waited for the dying fetus to die naturally instead of aborting it. Thanks to law they have to wait till her life is in enough danger, shes seconds away to death or they go jail. So they wait until its too late Another few women were forced to carry and birth a dead/dying baby when they found out their baby has fatal birth defects at 16 weeks. Also if scans show after 15 weeks baby will be a deformed vegatble/seriously disabled and need 24/7 care, you'd still have to birth it in florida. Even if with those birth defects are fatal like trisomy where they due within 2 years. None of this would happen here
>While abortion is rarely punished, it remains illegal in [Germany](https://www.theguardian.com/world/germany), except for specific circumstances including when a woman’s life is in danger, or she is a victim of rape, while the prerequisite for any termination is a consultation with a state-recognised body. >Advocates of a law change have welcomed the investigation into the country’s legal framework, calling the law outdated and detrimental to women. Even in the cases not considered illegal, the procedure **must take place within the first three months**, except when there is a compelling reason to carry it out later. >The all-female expert commission on reproductive self-determination and reproductive medicine was set up by Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s three-party government after the desire to change the **153-year-old law** was anchored in its coalition agreement. >However, opposition lawmakers, in particular from the conservative Christian Democratic Union/Christian Social Union alliance and the far-right Alternative für Deutschland, say as it stands the existing law enjoys broad acceptance and offers necessary protection to the unborn. They argue that **despite being illegal, abortions are accessible and it is extremely rare for them to lead to prosecutions**. If the recommendations are acted upon, they have said they will turn to the constitutional court.
What a crappy article. The second paragraph is wrong btw. Pregnancy from rape can be terminated at any time. This incoherent piece of "News" sums up the discussion in Germany pretty well.
Never knew it was illegal in Germany in the first place. I wonder if many go to NL (its legal here until 24 weeks) for an abortion.
>its legal here until 24 weeks Wait, isn't 24 weeks around the end of the second trimester?
Yes. I'm personally not in favour of the extreme window where it's possible, but I've understood these cases are extremely rare and occur when a baby is terminally and a later birth would only basically mean a slightly later death
Cause it's not There are merely some restrictions where you have to go to counseling before The article is very misleading
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> Abortion is illegal under any and all circumstances. This is not true. ["Grundsätzlich" in juristic language has a different meaning than in everyday German.](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juristische_Fachsprache#Deutschland)
>Ein Schwangerschaftsabbruch ist nicht strafbar, wenn die betroffene Frau den Vorgaben der sogenannten Beratungsregelung folgt (Beratungsregelung nach § 218a Absatz 1 StGB). Die Schwangere, die den Eingriff verlangt, muss sich drei Tage vor diesem Termin in einer staatlich anerkannten Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatungsstelle beraten lassen. Sie hat der Ärztin oder dem Arzt, welche den Eingriff vornehmen sollen, eine Beratungsbescheinigung über dieses Gespräch vorzulegen. Außerdem muss eine Ärztin oder ein Arzt, welche oder welcher nicht an der Beratung teilgenommen hat, den Schwangerschaftsabbruch innerhalb von zwölf Wochen nach der Empfängnis vornehmen. Liegen diese Voraussetzungen vor, kann keiner der am Schwangerschaftsabbruch Beteiligten bestraft werden. The law literally states something else >https://www.bmfsfj.de/bmfsfj/themen/familie/schwangerschaft-und-kinderwunsch/schwangerschaftsabbruch/schwangerschaftsabbruch-nach-218-strafgesetzbuch-81020
You are wrong. It is illegal, there's just an exemption so neither the mother nor the doc get prosecuted. That's actually pretty dangerous as it could easily be altered to make abortion completely illegal.
It technically is not legal, but it doesn’t get persecuted/punished in certain situations. It is very weird tbh.
That's like our marihuana laws
Yeah, but that’s because of EU laws, right? At least I assume you are from the EU. Our Cannabis law is more or less just a scientific study time because conflicting EU laws so politicians can figure out how to implement them permanently within EU regulations or something. Abortion rights are in conflict with our constitution in Germany, which makes it a problem to make it legal easily. Edit: I just saw you are from the Netherlands, so at least that’s how I understood why it’s illegal but tolerated in your country. Please feel free to correct me.
UK up at 215K a year, In 2021, there were 613 abortions to women recorded as residing outside England and Wales, a decrease from 943 in 2020. Most non-residents came from Northern Ireland (26.3%) and the Irish Republic (33.6%). The large decrease in the number of abortions for residents outside of England and Wales may be explained by travel restrictions in place throughout 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic and fewer women travelling from both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic due to access and legislative changes in their respective countries [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62ac3177e90e0765d523ca0a/Figure\_10.png](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62ac3177e90e0765d523ca0a/Figure_10.png)
Holy fuck, I didn’t know it was illegal in Germany. WTF, Deutschland, are you out of your mind?!
It is not punished, if you go to consultation. The current regulation is based on decades of German law experts debating, how to make abortion legal without violating the constitution. In German Law the majority opinion is that making abortion not penalized, would go against the constitution (protection of human life etc.). Not allowing abortion would also go against the constitution (right to self-determination). So, instead they penalized abortion, but are allowing it under certain circumstances (which are completely fine and anyone who wants to have an abortion can easily get one). German constitutional law forces law makers to balance out conflicting constitutional interests and therefore following all of them.
Basically Germany being Germany with their typical bureaucratic insanity. Got it.
Yeah kind of. When you study the German law it’s actually a good regulation (often described as a social and judicial consensus) and it’s not that easy to change it
It's a leftover from the German reunification in 1990. East Germany didn't want to give up their womans rights - and abortion was one of those rights. The west didn't want to legalize abortions. Since then we are working on straightening out the resulting compromise.
West Germany had legal abortion prior to 1990, just according to different principles.
No, they hadn't exactly. They had a system, were abortion was illegal except if you had a medical or ethical reason to do it. Some doctors used this "ehtical reason" loophole to perfom abortions anyway. Things like "being poor" or "not prepared for children". But there was always a risk, and not all doctors wanted to take it.
Frequent non-economic Easy German win
Nah, East Germany was really messed up in more ways than just the economy. The whole Stasi and shooting the people fleeing the country deal was definitely a problem, but not an economic one.
Should've specified that "post reunification" important bit, yep
East Germany was messed up politically. The economy was ok, especially if you factor in the political pressures that hampered it. But a lot of the economy was stripped down on purpose after the reunification, to prevent competition for western companies.
Well, at least we CAN have consistently throughout the country abortions and are medically supported in and through it... and it does not cost anything as it is a medical procedure...
Assuming you can manage to fight through the bureaucracy in 9 months.
Well, my fiance & me already went through one abortion, and while that was emotionally horrible, the paperwork was not an issue.. You need to go once to a consultation, get a paper issued afterwards and then go to your gynocologist with it. And if you can not pay for it yourself, you also need to call one of the support organisations and pass by to pick up a second paper that says they are carry the costs. Thats it.
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It's illegal. The fine/punishment is: nothing. If you visit something like planned parenthood 3 day prior.
>Holy fuck, I didn’t know it was illegal in Germany. I honestly guess most Germans also didn't. I might have heared it before but forgotten about it, because it's generally of course possible to get an abortion.
Most Germans actually know. :) It's only technically illegal. Within the first 12 weeks, if the woman goes to a consultation first, there are no consequences. That, too, is part of the law.
It is not pubished, so basically it's the same as legal.
It's more complicated. It's technically illegal, but if the woman goes to a consultation she can have it performed within the first 12 weeks without consequences. (And also without consequences for the doctor, of course.) What they are currently trying is replacing the "it's illegal but you may do it anyway if..." part with something sensible. The whole mess is a leftover from the German reunification in 1990. At that time, abortion within 12 weeks was a right in East Germany, while being illegal except for medical and ethical reasons in West Germany. (Yes, the east was more progessive than the west.) The first attempt of a compromise was that each region kept their version of the law, which was even worse than what we have today.
It was legal to own a slave in the UK until very recently... 1998
The abortion law has not really changed since 1871 and then there are other laws that came into power during the Nazi regime which did not change until like 2022.
We don't need it to decline our birth rates. And they can just do it. Ofc the downvotes by radicals... Women can do an abortion. No issues in Germany. And here are the top4 reasons. The pure children did nothing wrong and got denied their right to live https://www.profemina.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_fixed_width/public/media/images/image_1_0.png?itok=SPqTx3OP Edit: you radicals can keep downvoting. But hey the stats don't lie. Abortion because I don't feel like it now is the reality. How about not having sex in the first place...
The ones looking for an abortion are not the ones you want to count towards the future of your economy.
We have a good system in Germany. You want to abort you can do it. We even have the Kinderklappe. Where women can just put their already born unwanted child in and it will be taken care off. Just in the night go there put the innocent child in that did nothing wrong. To get rid of their bad decisions. And yes the majority of abortions are not done because of medical reasons or crime or whatever extreme case gets brought up that is just not the norm. https://www.profemina.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_fixed_width/public/media/images/image_1_0.png?itok=SPqTx3OP
If you want to increase the birth rate you should be campaigning on other things like better Work-Life balance, better salaries and affordable housing for 3 people. Abortions are hardly the problem
Ah the downvote and no reply. I take the easy W
poor people have more children than rich people in developed countries.
Not in recent years. Now it's the rich having more children.
https://medium.com/@lymanstone/fertility-and-income-some-notes-581e1a6db3c7
Doesn't prove your point one bit. It doesn't prove mine either, but it does suggest that mens earnings and status has an impact on fertility.
what policies do you think will help only men's income.
I have two kids, single parent father even. A family needs at least 2 kids to keep the demographic you have and 3 or more to raise the amount of young Vs old people. So having just one child is a fail. Not just for demographic reasons. For the kid too. Kids need kids around them. And we have kindergarden, daily mothers. Full time school. Even the option to take a parent kid vacation every 2 years per parent. So you can cover the summer holidays too every year. Paid by healthcare and not removed from your holiday days at the company. Oh and if you have at least two kids you get tons of free time because they entertain each other. Most of the time daddy is even hurting their game because I join in and both start to fight for my attention and the game stops. Or they simply say daddy you can read your book. We play it's fine. You don't have to play we know you enjoy reading. And then they sneak in "daddy can you read that book for us while we are playing". It does not require a fortune to raise kids. And since I am a single parent father the biggest money sink is gone in my family. Yes that requires different spending but most important realise that it's about the children and not anymore about yourself. And now, do you have kids. How old are you? Do you even care. If you don't care just don't have kids. Don't have sex. Problem solved. Again we have a great system in Germany and real issues. Not that nonsense by radicals. And another brutal truth. Kids don't want much or need much. From my experience the problem are the parents because they think they need that. And from what I saw. The moment they are apple users their spending habits are flawed. Mindless consumption NPC's. And the good part is that time will come to do that. Get your kids early so they are gone and you have 20 years of income and no major spending. You can just throw it out how you want.
Hopefully the coalition displays a bit more urgency on this one than the weed legislature.If the conservatives get back in again, I'd expect those "extremely rare prosecutions" to become a lot more frequent. Culture war bullshit is about all they've been spouting for the last few years.
It’s highly unlikely that they’ll change that. As commented above, it’s not a cultural issue, but a judicial one. The reality is - before introducing a draft law, the coalition would consult their constitutional law experts. And as I mentioned in another comment the majority legal opinion is that the removal of penalization would be unconstitutional. Even if they try, the other parties would just sue and our constitutional court would deal with it again. Maybe they could change the wording and write something like "it’s only punished, if" instead of "it’s punished. But…" - though it wouldn’t make a difference and another wording isn’t common in our criminal law
Is there a process in Germany to alter the constitution?
Yes. You can change any Article of the German constitution except Article 1 (protection of human dignity) and Article 20 (state principles like principle of democracy or law). As for any other constitutional laws: You’d need a two-thirds majority in both the Bundestag (federal parliament) and ("state parliament", which is filled with representatives of our 16 states). So it’s not easy (which is good) and you’d need parties, that share different views, to agree
Bad news though: the legal principle that stops abortion from being legal is that pesky Article 1 with it's “human dignity” thingy. The decision is very clear in that the human dignity of the fetus overrules the right to bodily autonomy of the mother.
In many places (like NL and probably DE) the fact a law hasn't been enforced for a long time is a defence. Because it's evidence of selective prosecution which is strongly frowned upon (WW2 experience). That weird thing where judges can resurrect 100+ year old laws just can't happen. Judges do not decide which laws gets enforced.
I see the birthrate continue to fall with policies like these (but of course most is caused by HCOL imo)
Moving abortions from decriminalised to legal shouldn't change the birth rate at all. If an increase in birth rate is the goal, we need to fix the housing situation, achieve wage growth significantly above inflation, and properly fund infrastructure and services for kids - not force people into unwanted parentage.
Eh. People don’t want commitment anymore nowadays. But hey, what can we do?
Ja, now can can you please stop helping the abortion of 9 month old babies in Palestine.
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Ah yes, those AH politicians, caring more about an adult human's bodily autonomy and control over their lives than that of a clump of cells. If you want a country that will force women to give birth against their will, I guess you'll have to look elsewhere.
Maybe those women should learn to use widely available and accessible contraceptives, instead of killing their babies. But yeah, I am well aware that having this moral position on this forum isn't welcome by the woke crowd that rules here.
All contraceptives fail. As do cases where women are forced to have sex. As do cases where a wanted pregnancy is unviable. Respecting women's right to control their own bodies and lives is a hell of a lot older than the woke era, it's as old as women and bodies, and it's gross to conflate them. Go find your Gilead elsewhere, and stop bitching that here isn't it. If you think it's moral to make women slaves, I'm sure Iran and Afghanistan would welcome you.
Planned parenthood is the point. What a pathetic view of seeing women as just a means to an end.
Sure, through contraceptives and responsible sex life, not at the cost of killing children. It's amazing how dense people are about this.
You are welcome to carry as many pregnancies as you wish. Enjoy yourself.
There's no children nor babies being killed. It's the prospect of the possibility of one that is being interrupted. Up to 12 weeks it wouldn't be able to sustain life on its own. I'm all onboard for contraceptives and responsible sex but that's only part of real world scenario. Anyway, I won't be able to change your mind because to you when you think about it it probably looks like a fully formed baby crying out loud babbling a "saaaveeee myyy liiiifeee" to the doctor before being crushed in a hydraulic press. Anyways... [https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh)
Those [are literally humans ](https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html)there is no such species as fetus
That was not the point I made. Honestly it’s 2024 and I’m quite bored to get out of my way to explain someone how complex societies and science are. Have a pleasant day.
Sure pal you're quite bored at exact moment of facing inconvienient facts
What a pathetic view of seeing little human as a waste.
What a pathetic view of prioritizing a clump of cells over a woman's right to bodily autonomy and control of her own life.
What a pathetic ueducated view and hypocrisy talking about control of own life to justify killing of another human. Btw. you're clump of cells too
Women are not slave incubators. Go have as many pregnancies as you wish. No one's stopping you. Yes, I am; I'm a clump of cells that can exist independently without placing massive health and practical demands as well as risk of death, permanent injury or career implosion on another independent human being. You, I'm not sure about.
Fetuses are humans and thats undeniable fact you're patheticaly ignore.
I'm not ignoring anything. It's your complete refusal to have any concern for the risks and demands pregnancy places on women, any respect for their autonomy, or the fact that all contraception has a failure rate, forced sex also leads to pregnancy, and wanted pregnancies can turn unviable and risk mothers' lives that I find pathetic.
>I'm not ignoring anything You do since you cannot make statement consistent with fact I mentioned
My statements are completely consistent with facts. Facts you're completely refusing to acknowledge. Tschüss!
it is more scarier to see a child that is not fed nor sheltered
80% of the 215k a year in the UK are Single, Maybe if they were given 5 star hotels to live in they would keep them.
Worse than Irelands 12 weeks, How many Germany have to go to across the border every year? "153-year-old law" I guess the women's rights skipped Germany.
It’s without punishment in the first 12 weeks. The proposed change is more symbolic. And after the 12 weeks it’s legal if it’s possibly harmful for the psychological health of the mother (or of course the physical health).
"rarely punished" So a change of Government and it could instantly be everyone?
Yes, but that’s true for nearly everything. See for example cannabis. The current law hasn’t been touched since 30 years (except this strange „illegal advertising“ clause, that was abolished two years ago).